Questions About Purchasing An SBR Lower-Receiver? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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victormikelima
06-13-2012, 08:14
Hello,

I have had my eye on purchasing the KAC SR-15 block 3 11.5 SBR as my go-to home defense firearm. But I would also like the idea of owning a barrel with a length of 16".

Is it perhaps possible to purchase a factory-new lower-receiver to the SBR and then purchase both an SBR upper and the 16" upper?

Or possibly purchase the complete 11.5 SBR and slap the 16" upper on it?

Just wondering if there are any legal laws that would add into this.

Thanks!

Sendarr
06-13-2012, 08:44
My understanding is, that the lower is the sbr. So you could mount a 16" 5.56 upper, a 10" 300aac upper and buy a 12" 6.8spc upper and they're all fine. As long as you can return the rifle to its original configuration that you registered it as. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

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LA_357SIG
06-13-2012, 11:51
Hello,
Is it perhaps possible to purchase a factory-new lower-receiver to the SBR and then purchase both an SBR upper and the 16" upper?


Yes.

If I understand this right, If you purchase the 11.5" KAC as a complete rifle, you will purchase it as a SBR. (Meaning it will be in the NFA registry on a form 4 before you can "possess" it. You are free to put any upper you want to regardless of barrel length as long as you "possess" the original 11.5" barrelled upper.)

The other option is to buy a 16" KAC rifle and SBR the lower receiver yourself on a Form 1, then purchase the 11.5" upper when you are approved. The downside is you will have to engrave the lower yourself as opposed to buying the KAC SBR with just thier name on it.

So in closing you can buy the SBR now and wait 6 months for approval, then shoot it and put any upper you want to...

-or-

Buy the 16" version now, shoot it now, SBR it on a Form 1, wait 6 months for approval, then put a 11.5" barrelled upper on it.

ravenkeeper98
06-13-2012, 12:03
I believe that any modification from the original registered SBR will have to be annotated on a Form 1. Like someone mentioned, buy the lower or complete with the 16", then do a form 1, but when you do, go ahead and put down any configuration of barrel lengths (including the original 16") you may even think about buying for that lower on the Form 1 when you register it, and as long as you stay with those lengths, including 16" you don't have to keep modifying the registration. One time good deal.

WoodenPlank
06-13-2012, 15:14
Yes.

If I understand this right, If you purchase the 11.5" KAC as a complete rifle, you will purchase it as a SBR. (Meaning it will be in the NFA registry on a form 4 before you can "possess" it. You are free to put any upper you want to regardless of barrel length as long as you "possess" the original 11.5" barrelled upper.)

The other option is to buy a 16" KAC rifle and SBR the lower receiver yourself on a Form 1, then purchase the 11.5" upper when you are approved. The downside is you will have to engrave the lower yourself as opposed to buying the KAC SBR with just thier name on it.

So in closing you can buy the SBR now and wait 6 months for approval, then shoot it and put any upper you want to...

-or-

Buy the 16" version now, shoot it now, SBR it on a Form 1, wait 6 months for approval, then put a 11.5" barrelled upper on it.

Actually, that last bit should be BUY the SBR upper after you get approval, as you don't want the SBR just laying around in the meantime.

Also, if you buy a rifle and SBR it on a form 1, you will have to have your info engraved on it. Buy a KAC factory SBR, though, and you do not.

I believe that any modification from the original registered SBR will have to be annotated on a Form 1. Like someone mentioned, buy the lower or complete with the 16", then do a form 1, but when you do, go ahead and put down any configuration of barrel lengths (including the original 16") you may even think about buying for that lower on the Form 1 when you register it, and as long as you stay with those lengths, including 16" you don't have to keep modifying the registration. One time good deal.

Only PERMANENT configuration changes have to be reported to the ATF. Also, do *NOT* put multiple lengths and calibers on a Form 1, as it can delay your form. Apparently some of the inspectors don't like it. I had an inspector warn me off from doing exactly that when I was filling in my Form 1.

Amending a Form 1 is very simple, and only takes a week or so to get the signed letter back. If you really want to have a slew of configurations on it, submit a Form 1 for ONE configuration, and then send an amendment letter for all the others once you get the stamp.

LA_357SIG
06-13-2012, 15:37
Yes.

If I understand this right, If you purchase the 11.5" KAC as a complete rifle, you will purchase it as a SBR. (Meaning it will be in the NFA registry on a form 4 before you can "possess" it. You are free to put any upper you want to regardless of barrel length as long as you "possess" the original 11.5" barrelled upper.)

The other option is to buy a 16" KAC rifle and SBR the lower receiver yourself on a Form 1, then purchase the 11.5" upper when you are approved. The downside is you will have to engrave the lower yourself as opposed to buying the KAC SBR with just thier name on it.

So in closing you can buy the SBR now and wait 6 months for approval, then shoot it and put any upper you want to...

-or-

Buy the 16" version now, shoot it now, SBR it on a Form 1, wait 6 months for approval, then put a 11.5" barrelled upper on it.

Actually, that last bit should be BUY the SBR upper after you get approval, as you don't want the SBR just laying around in the meantime.

Also, if you buy a rifle and SBR it on a form 1, you will have to have your info engraved on it. Buy a KAC factory SBR, though, and you do not.


Yeah. Thanks for clearing that up. :upeyes:

WoodenPlank
06-13-2012, 15:43
Yeah. Thanks for clearing that up. :upeyes:

'scuse me for speed reading, and only catching the highlighted bits at the end. :tongueout:

Edit to add: Also, you do not want to have a barrel SHORTER than what's noted on your Form 1/4 in your possession or installed on the rifle. If your paperwork says 11.5", don't have an 8.5" unless you've amended the paperwork.

LA_357SIG
06-13-2012, 15:59
'scuse me for speed reading, and only catching the highlighted bits at the end. :tongueout:

Edit to add: Also, you do not want to have a barrel SHORTER than what's noted on your Form 1/4 in your possession or installed on the rifle. If your paperwork says 11.5", don't have an 8.5" unless you've amended the paperwork.

What law exactly would you be violating if you did? Less than 16" is less than 16". Having a shorter barrel than what is not listed on the Form 1/4 would not be considered a permenant modification and once the lower (or receiver) is registered as a SBR as long as the serial number matched, what could possibly be in violation? Will I get busted for shooting 5.56 through my .308 suppressor?

But on the other hand, a discussion on TOS revealed that adding a note to the registry is painless (although it took the NFA Branch nearly 2 years to respond) I would say it is only a good idea to CYA. I wouldn't hide my dog over it unless I see the ruling myself.

WoodenPlank
06-13-2012, 16:03
What law exactly would you be violating if you did? Less than 16" is less than 16". Having a shorter barrel than what is not listed on the Form 1/4 would not be considered a permenant modification and once the lower (or receiver) is registered as a SBR as long as the serial number matched, what could possibly be in violation? Will I get busted for shooting 5.56 through my .308 suppressor?

But on the other hand, a discussion on TOS revealed that adding a note to the registry is painless (although it took the NFA Branch nearly 2 years to respond) I would say it is only a good idea to CYA. I wouldn't hide my dog over it unless I see the ruling myself.

I had an inspector tell me outright to not have an upper shorter than the Form 1/4 reflected, permanent change or not, as it could be construed as a violation of some sort. Filing an amendment to a Form 1 or 4 doesn't take two years, unless there's a fluke foul-up, it takes a week - same as 5320.20 forms, change of address notices, etc.

LA_357SIG
06-13-2012, 16:32
I had an inspector tell me outright to not have an upper shorter than the Form 1/4 reflected, permanent change or not, as it could be construed as a violation of some sort. Filing an amendment to a Form 1 or 4 doesn't take two years, unless there's a fluke foul-up, it takes a week - same as 5320.20 forms, change of address notices, etc.

Notice I said nothing about amending a Form 1/4. And I quote: "But on the other hand, a discussion on TOS revealed that adding a note to the registry is painless (although it took the NFA Branch nearly 2 years to respond) I would say it is only a good idea to CYA. I wouldn't hide my dog over it unless I see the ruling myself." Like I said, a violation of what? If the item doesn't match the description what rule are you violating? I can see if I bored out a F4 9mm suppressor to shoot .45ACP, but even then, it can still shoot 9mm. If I didn't ammend it, I would violate what law?

But anyway... http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74443

WoodenPlank
06-13-2012, 16:39
Notice I said nothing about amending a Form 1/4. And I quote: "But on the other hand, a discussion on TOS revealed that adding a note to the registry is painless (although it took the NFA Branch nearly 2 years to respond) I would say it is only a good idea to CYA. I wouldn't hide my dog over it unless I see the ruling myself." Like I said, a violation of what? If the item doesn't match the description what rule are you violating? I can see if I bored out a F4 9mm suppressor to shoot .45ACP, but even then, it can still shoot 9mm. If I didn't ammend it, I would violate what law?

But anyway... http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74443

When you send a letter like the one in your link, you are filing an amendment letter to your Form 1/4, just like I mentioned earlier. You will also note that the letter in your link specifically notified the ATF of the SHORTEST barrel length he could possibly be using, so any configuration he picked (of the ones listed) would be equal to, or LONGER THAN, the 6" barrel he amended his paperwork to.

As for the rule, I am telling you exactly what I was told by Dana Pickles, the NFA inspector that signed my Form 1. If you want to know the actual rule/law, contact him or another inspector. If the guy that signed my F1 says to do it that way, I'm listening to him.

That said, I would imagine the ATF would claim you were in possession of an unregistered SBR/Suppressor/ETC, since the weapon in your possession did not accurately reflect the paperwork that was approved by the ATF.

Glockdude1
06-13-2012, 16:41
Also, if you buy a rifle and SBR it on a form 1, you will have to have your info engraved on it. Buy a KAC factory SBR, though, and you do not.



After you buy a rifle and SBR it on a Form 1, what is the time frame you must engrave your info on the weapon? Day, weeks, months, etc.....

:dunno:

WoodenPlank
06-13-2012, 16:44
After you buy a rifle and SBR it on a Form 1, what is the time frame you must engrave your info on the weapon? Day, weeks, months, etc.....

:dunno:

It's kinda foggy, actually. Most folks will tell you to engrave it AFTER the form is approved, in case the ATF tells you something is wrong, and it changes what you'd have to have engraved (and saves on cost). I engraved mine before the paperwork, as I was not using a trust, and I knew I could easily fit my name and location on the rifle with the laser engraver used.

In either case, the safe route is to have it engraved before the paperwork comes back. You definitely have to have it engraved before having the short barrel/upper in your possession, and there's no way in hell I'd wanna be caught with an assembled SBR without the appropriate markings on it.

LA_357SIG
06-13-2012, 17:15
When you send a letter like the one in your link, you are filing an amendment letter to your Form 1/4, just like I mentioned earlier. You will also note that the letter in your link specifically notified the ATF of the SHORTEST barrel length he could possibly be using, so any configuration he picked (of the ones listed) would be equal to, or LONGER THAN, the 6" barrel he amended his paperwork to.

As for the rule, I am telling you exactly what I was told by Dana Pickles, the NFA inspector that signed my Form 1. If you want to know the actual rule/law, contact him or another inspector. If the guy that signed my F1 says to do it that way, I'm listening to him.

That said, I would imagine the ATF would claim you were in possession of an unregistered SBR/Suppressor/ETC, since the weapon in your possession did not accurately reflect the paperwork that was approved by the ATF.

If that is the case then having a barrel longer than what is on your Form 1/4 under 16" would also be a violation.

And by the way, if that is an amendment... It took nearly 2 years to get a response. So don't feel obligated to challenge everything I type. All I ask is that you actually read what I wrote before trying to poke holes in it. I acknowledge your den mother status here in the Black Rifle Forum. I have no interest at all in disputing that.

victormikelima
06-15-2012, 14:43
Thanks for all the info guys, definitely helpful!

Armchair Commando
06-17-2012, 15:26
Hello,

I have had my eye on purchasing the KAC SR-15 block 3 11.5 SBR as my go-to home defense firearm. But I would also like the idea of owning a barrel with a length of 16".

Is it perhaps possible to purchase a factory-new lower-receiver to the SBR and then purchase both an SBR upper and the 16" upper?

Or possibly purchase the complete 11.5 SBR and slap the 16" upper on it?

Just wondering if there are any legal laws that would add into this.

Thanks!

From what i read online and talked to lawyers this is what i've gathered. The lower is the registered sbr, You can put any size upper on it you want but the main upper for it has to be listed on your form 1, The only time you need to notify the atf is when a PERMANENT CHANGE is done to the SBR! If you want to sell your Main upper and replace it with another one then you need to notify the atf!

Armchair Commando
06-17-2012, 15:28
If that is the case then having a barrel longer than what is on your Form 1/4 under 16" would also be a violation.

And by the way, if that is an amendment... It took nearly 2 years to get a response. So don't feel obligated to challenge everything I type. All I ask is that you actually read what I wrote before trying to poke holes in it. I acknowledge your den mother status here in the Black Rifle Forum. I have no interest at all in disputing that.

Hell the atf makes it so difficult to understand that most lawyers can't get it right!

uzimon
06-17-2012, 16:19
The downside is you will have to engrave the lower yourself as opposed to buying the KAC SBR ].

it's my understanding the barrel(s) can be engraved instead of the lower

Armchair Commando
06-17-2012, 16:32
it's my understanding the barrel(s) can be engraved instead of the lower

The lower is the registered part of the SBR, It must be engraved.

LA_357SIG
06-17-2012, 18:25
nevermind

AK_Stick
06-17-2012, 18:32
What law exactly would you be violating if you did? Less than 16" is less than 16". Having a shorter barrel than what is not listed on the Form 1/4 would not be considered a permenant modification and once the lower (or receiver) is registered as a SBR as long as the serial number matched, what could possibly be in violation? Will I get busted for shooting 5.56 through my .308 suppressor?

But on the other hand, a discussion on TOS revealed that adding a note to the registry is painless (although it took the NFA Branch nearly 2 years to respond) I would say it is only a good idea to CYA. I wouldn't hide my dog over it unless I see the ruling myself.


I was told the same when I got my SBR. Thats why I initially went 7.5, because from then I could go as long or as short as I wanted to. Had I gone 14.5, then buying an additional upper shorter than that would be "illegal"

glock21xxx
06-17-2012, 19:48
so, when I register my SBR this year I should put list a 7.5" upper for the rifle and then I can go with anything above that?

copo9560
06-17-2012, 20:35
If this is for home defense, you might consider buying a AR Pistol - can get the short barrel and no wait or approval from BATF. You don't get to put a stock on but the tube on the back holding the spring is more useful than it looks.

Another route is to get the 14.5 inch barrel with a permanant mount flash hider. Again no ATF approval required and you have a nice short package.

WoodenPlank
06-17-2012, 23:00
it's my understanding the barrel(s) can be engraved instead of the lower

Some weapons bear the serial number on the barrel, so you should engrave that. It all depends on the individual firearm. On an AR, though, it needs to be the lower, as that's where the factory serial number resides.

If this is for home defense, you might consider buying a AR Pistol - can get the short barrel and no wait or approval from BATF. You don't get to put a stock on but the tube on the back holding the spring is more useful than it looks.

Another route is to get the 14.5 inch barrel with a permanant mount flash hider. Again no ATF approval required and you have a nice short package.

A real stock is a lot better than just using the pistol buffer as a half-ass stock. A 14.5" with a pinned and welded A2X is less than an inch shorter than a 16" with an A2.

Sendarr
06-18-2012, 18:01
Soo use something longer than an a2

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