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nastytrigger
06-14-2012, 19:15
It's weird. Anytime this friend see's my 1911, he becomes weirded-out by my cocked and locked 1911. I've explained the design, the safeties, etc., numerous times.

He's been wanting a 1911, but even more so, he's wanting a Sig P938 (nearly same manual of arms, minus grip safety). He has two Glock's and a Taurus .38Spc, so 1911's are a different design to him.

He's afraid that the hammer will fall inadvertently, from what I gather. Says he'd feel more comfortable chambering a round, and then lowering the hammer (on that live round) for carry... Ugh.

Is this an old revolver mind-set? What's so scary about cocked and locked?

GLOCK17DB9
06-14-2012, 19:22
He just needs to get comfortable. I would suggest that he try carrying a cocked unloaded gun for a few days and test it out just to see that they just don't go off accidentally automatically!:dunno:

esh325
06-14-2012, 19:29
What's wrong with lowering the hammer on a live round for carry?

PlasticGuy
06-14-2012, 19:31
Remind him that nearly every common rifle and shotgun works the same way, and so do other common handguns. He doesn't feel safe with a Remington 700 or Winchester model 70, a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500, or a Springfield XD pistol? They are all "cocked and locked". The only difference is that the striker is internal so you can't see it.

esh325
06-14-2012, 19:32
Remind him that nearly every common rifle and shotgun works the same way, and so do other common handguns. He doesn't feel safe with a Remington 700 or Winchester model 70, a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 500, or a Springfield XD pistol? They are all "cocked and locked". The only difference is that the striker is internal so you can't see it.
You don't carry a shotgun in your holster though.

bac1023
06-14-2012, 20:12
What's wrong with lowering the hammer on a live round for carry?

Why would you even want to?

Cocked and locked is easier and much safer.

esh325
06-14-2012, 20:17
Why would you even want to?

Cocked and locked is easier and much safer.
It's not suitable for everybody. Cocked and locked is not in anyway safer than carrying it with the hammer down on a live round. Anyway to the OP, is your friend planning on carry his 1911? If not, then it doesn't really matter.

rickrope
06-14-2012, 20:20
It's not suitable for everybody. Cocked and locked is not in anyway safer than carrying it with the hammer down on a live round. Anyway to the OP, is your friend planning on carry his 1911? If not, then it doesn't really matter.

Yes actually it is.

esh325
06-14-2012, 20:21
Yes actually it is.
How is that?

SauerChoi
06-14-2012, 20:22
It's not suitable for everybody. Cocked and locked is not in anyway safer than carrying it with the hammer down on a live round. Anyway to the OP, is your friend planning on carry his 1911? If not, then it doesn't really matter.
you're wrong on this one. lowering a hammer on a live round, while it can be done safely, is dangerous. Also, the motion of click the safety off is a lot easier than trying to cock that hammer when you need to.

Nakanokalronin
06-14-2012, 20:29
It's really about associating a cocked revolver with a cocked 1911. some people get over it when they learn the mechanics of the pistol, some take that mind-set to their graves.

The second gun I ever owned was a 1911 and I read the same old carry arguments about C'd & L'd. Well what I decided to do was carry the gun unloaded, hammer cocked and safety off. I banged that thing into all sorts of rails, stairways, chairs and whatever else I could think of. I then jogged around, jumped up and down, fell to the ground and anything else I could think of. I then took it out of the holster and threw it onto a hard carpeted surface, muzzle down, muzzle up, on both sides, spun it in the air and guess what.....the hammer never dropped! This was with a SA Milspec. Now if the hammer dosn't drop after all that with the hammer cocked and safety off, I think it's pretty safe with the safety on.

As far as the thumb safety goes, it's always good to have that incase something gets caught in the trigger guard when you have a full grip, like a tab or strap on a holster. It's a remote possibility but it can happen and yes, I tested for that too.

Yea, what I did sounds ridiculous but it put all of the misinformation out the window.

faawrenchbndr
06-14-2012, 20:29
It's weird. Anytime this friend see's my 1911, he becomes weirded-out by my cocked and locked 1911. I've explained the design, the safeties, etc., numerous times.

He's been wanting a 1911, but even more so, he's wanting a Sig P938 (nearly same manual of arms, minus grip safety). He has two Glock's and a Taurus .38Spc, so 1911's are a different design to him.

He's afraid that the hammer will fall inadvertently, from what I gather. Says he'd feel more comfortable chambering a round, and then lowering the hammer (on that live round) for carry... Ugh.

Is this an old revolver mind-set? What's so scary about cocked and locked?

Hammer down on a live cartridge is a disaster waiting to happen.
I and many have confidence in condition 1 carry, I recommend it.

Have your friend do this,.......carry with a full mag inserted, empty
chamber, hammer back & safety on.

This will allow him to build confidence in the weapon's safety, without
the hazard of hammer down on a live chambered cartridge. As
time progresses, he will be able to transition to condition 1
with confidence.

esh325
06-14-2012, 20:29
you're wrong on this one. lowering a hammer on a live round, while it can be done safely, is dangerous. Also, the motion of click the safety off is a lot easier than trying to cock that hammer when you need to.
Have you ever tried it? It's only dangerous if the person using it is incompetent. I practiced it over and over with my CZ75B and Beretta Cheetah, and it's not a big deal. If a person doesn't feel comfortable doing it, that's another story. Actually carrying it with the hammer down is perfectly safe.

PlasticGuy
06-14-2012, 20:30
You don't carry a shotgun in your holster though.
Exactly. The 1911 has the addition of a grip safety, and it's secured in a holster. It's safer than carrying a loaded hunting rifle or shotgun.

PlasticGuy
06-14-2012, 20:33
It's not suitable for everybody. Cocked and locked is not in anyway safer than carrying it with the hammer down on a live round...
How do you get it fully loaded with the hammer down? You load the pistol, defeat all safety mechanisms, and then pull the trigger. If your thumb doesn't slip, great. If it does, you get a bang when you don't want one. That's unsafe.

faawrenchbndr
06-14-2012, 20:36
Have you ever tried it? It's only dangerous if the person using it is incompetent........



Incompetent person (legal), person not of sound mind or mentally impaired,
unable to make decision for himself or herself

Look in the mirror and read the above Brother! :whistling:

esh325
06-14-2012, 20:39
How do you get it fully loaded with the hammer down? You load the pistol, defeat all safety mechanisms, and then pull the trigger. If your thumb doesn't slip, great. If it does, you get a bang when you don't want one. That's unsafe.
Have you ever tried it before? There's different ways of doing it. One way is to put your thumb in between the hammer and frame and slowly ease the hammer up. I suppose I shouldn't have brought my experience with other pistols into the matter as a 1911 does not a hammer drop safety like a CZ75.

esh325
06-14-2012, 20:41
Look in the mirror and read the above Brother! :whistling:
Why are you being personal about it? Because I'm disagreeing with you?

kirgi08
06-14-2012, 20:42
It's meant ta be carried C@L.'08.

EricandSuebee
06-14-2012, 20:43
Probably because you used the wrong terminology?

faawrenchbndr
06-14-2012, 20:47
Why are you being personal about it? Because I'm disagreeing with you?

Personal? Not being personal, just dealing with incompetence.
Plain and simple, you have no flipping clue as to what you THINK you are saying.

Great argument though,......just wrong as three boys in a sleeping bag!

esh325
06-14-2012, 20:51
Personal? Not being personal, just dealing with incompetence.
Plain and simple, you have no flipping clue as to what you THINK you are saying.

Great argument though,......just wrong as three boys in a sleeping bag!
....Okay?

SauerChoi
06-14-2012, 20:59
Have you ever tried it? It's only dangerous if the person using it is incompetent. I practiced it over and over with my CZ75B and Beretta Cheetah, and it's not a big deal. If a person doesn't feel comfortable doing it, that's another story. Actually carrying it with the hammer down is perfectly safe.

I've already said that it's safe to do if careful. If you cannot see that dropping the hammer manually on a SA gun is not inherently more dangerous than clicking the safety on, I don't know what else to tell you.

I guess you just don't get it.

Have fun asking the bad guy to hold on while you use both hands to cock that hammer in an SD situation.

janice6
06-14-2012, 21:12
I think it is a psychological result of someone that does not know about pistols but only sees a hammer pulled back. To neophytes that probably means "going to fire", not "ready to fire".

As an example, the "hammer equivalent" in a Glock is hidden and a lesser threat to these people, as in most semi-auto pistols.


Best guess..


My carry revolver is striker fired, and the hammer is always at rest even after cocking, thus it appears less threatening.

SauerChoi
06-14-2012, 21:15
I think it is a psychological result of someone that does not know about pistols but only sees a hammer pulled back. To neophytes that probably means "going to fire", not "ready to fire".

As an example, the "hammer equivalent" in a Glock is hidden and a lesser threat to these people, as in most semi-auto pistols.


Best guess..

That's very true. there have been a few PDs that had to switch from a SA guns like 1911 to a Glock because general public were nervous about seeing the hammer cocked...

glock2740
06-14-2012, 21:27
What's so scary about cocked and locked?

Being on the business end of it? :dunno:

:rofl:

took
06-14-2012, 21:49
Why are you being personal about it? Because I'm disagreeing with you?
The information you provided, even if you feel comfortable, can potential be unsafe and should not promoted for others to use.

Brucev
06-14-2012, 21:54
It's weird. Anytime this friend see's my 1911, he becomes weirded-out by my cocked and locked 1911. I've explained the design, the safeties, etc., numerous times.

He's been wanting a 1911, but even more so, he's wanting a Sig P938 (nearly same manual of arms, minus grip safety). He has two Glock's and a Taurus .38Spc, so 1911's are a different design to him.

He's afraid that the hammer will fall inadvertently, from what I gather. Says he'd feel more comfortable chambering a round, and then lowering the hammer (on that live round) for carry... Ugh.

Is this an old revolver mind-set? What's so scary about cocked and locked? The people who carry them... :whistling:

PlasticGuy
06-14-2012, 21:58
The information you provided, even if you feel comfortable, can potential be unsafe and should not promoted for others to use.
That's exactly correct. A difference of opinions is healthy most of the time. Both parties can learn something if they have open minds. This is different.

Suggesting that anyone intentionally defeat the safeties of their firearm while it is loaded and then pull the trigger is dangerous. There is nothing to discuss here.

Snaps
06-14-2012, 22:10
I was always very iffy about it too, can't really say how I got over it, just happeend

FLIPPER 348
06-15-2012, 00:05
It's meant ta be carried C@L.'08.


Actually it's not by design. Condition 1 is a carry option but not the only one.

Lowjiber
06-15-2012, 05:34
He just needs to get comfortable. I would suggest that he try carrying a cocked unloaded gun for a few days and test it out just to see that they just don't go off accidentally automatically!:dunno:
On about the third day, sneak up behind him and pop a balloon.:rofl::rofl:

Sorry...couldn't get that picture outta my head.:whistling:

Deriffe
06-15-2012, 06:04
I am seriously flabbergasted that anyone would actually suggest there is a safe way to lower the hammer on a live round of a 1911. If the weapon is not equipped with a hammer drop mechanism (Sig Sauer), the only time that hammer should drop on a live round is when it is pointed at something (someone) that you intend to shoot. To suggest anything else would be the same as saying it's safe to play russian roulette 5/6 of the time. Naysayers and internet experts can beat their chests all they want. Your protests are as ridiculous as the very idea. There are only two safe ways to carry a loaded 1911. Locked and cocked or cold. Anything else is a ticking time bomb. Posting it on a public message board very well could bite one in the rear end some day. :dunno:

FL Airedale
06-15-2012, 07:13
I have to admit that I was a little nervous about cocked and locked too. Carrying a 1911 in that condition for 19 years got me over it.

I have seen a pistol fire without anyone touching it. It was at a range. The pistol was sitting on the bench, pointed down range, and no one was touching it when it discharged. It flew off the bench and landed on the concrete floor. Everyone was running for cover.

Fortunately, it didn't empty the magazine. It turned out the owner of the pistol had been doing some amateur gunsmithing to make the trigger as light as possible. Fortunately he didn't kill anyone.

I've also seen pistols fire full auto, while in someone's hands, because an amateur gunsmith worked on them.

The range owner didn't like this and called the police. Full auto, even by accident, is still illegal if you don't have the correct license.

FLIPPER 348
06-15-2012, 07:54
I am seriously flabbergasted that anyone would actually suggest there is a safe way to lower the hammer on a live round of a 1911. :dunno:


It's actually how the 1911 was designed. The geometry of the GI trigger makes it quite easy to anyone with reasonable control of their opposable thumbs. So-called cocked and locked was never part of the design.

From CW Clawson's book, Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of the 1911 and 1911A1: Page 7 -- In 1913 an addenda was added to the Army Ordnance Manual for the 1911 emphasizing not to carry the pistol in the holster with the hammer cocked and the safety lock on except in an emergency as it was not the intended purpose of the safety lock.



The 1910 prototype that was first submitted didn't have the thumb safety. The grip safety had been in place on the Colt contract pistols since 1905 as an add-on...and incorporated into the design shortly after.

The thumb safety...aka "Manual, slide locking" safety...was added at the US Cavalry's request so that a mounted trooper who found himself trying to hang onto a frightened horse could reholster the gun without shooting himself or the horse. Even in those unenlightened days, they realized that a man under stress might forget to take his finger out of the trigger guard before jamming the piece into a holster.

So...The thumb safety wasn't about cocked and locked carry. It was added for safe reholstering in an emergency. The cry: "Cocked and Locked, like JMB intended!" is erroneous. He had no such intent, nor did the US Army. If Browning had any intent at all, it was to carry the pistol on half-cock, and even alludes to it in the 1910 patents...calling it "The Safety Position" and goes on to give instruction on safely lowering the hammer with one hand.

faawrenchbndr
06-15-2012, 08:16
The Conditions of Readiness
The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the “Condition” system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. They are:
Condition 0 – A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 – Also known as “cocked and locked,” means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 – A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 – The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 – The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.
The mode of readiness preferred by the experts is Condition One. Generally speaking, Condition One offers the best balance of readiness and safety. Its biggest drawback is that it looks scary to people who don’t understand the operation and safety features of the pistol.

Col Jeff Cooper's thoughts,...........

JuneyBooney
06-15-2012, 08:44
There is probably more chance of the Glock safety system not working when it hits the holster and going off than the 1911 safety system not functioning.

Snaps
06-15-2012, 10:37
while I wouldn't prefer it (too much work involved readying the gun) I don't for a second believe there's any danger to lowering a hammer on a live round. If you forget to hold it, yea, but that's like saying what if you sneeze while you're driving and swerve across two lanes of traffic.

From what I understand from reading way too much, cocked and locked was developed after the gun was in service.


EDIT: some people have issues with trusting themselves to do something, not the gun

1911Tuner
06-15-2012, 10:45
It's meant ta be carried C@L.'08.

No, actually...it's not. It can be carried that way, but it wasn't intended specifically to be carried that way. The "Manual, Slide-Locking Safety" was added on request by the US Cavalry so that a pistol could be safely reholstered when the rider needed to free up both hands in order to regain control of a frightened, unruly horse.

Even in those unenlightened days, they realized that a man under stress may forget to get his finger out of the trigger guard before jamming the piece back into a holster. Much easier to train him to snick the safety on.

Incidentally, the half-cock is a safety, too. It was referred to as a safety position in the 1910 patents...before the addition of the thumb safety...by Browning himself, along with instructions on lowering the hammer to that position...with one hand. That's why the grip safety tang of the 1909 Model was modified...so that pulling the hammer past full cock would disengage it.

All of Browning's "Hammer" guns were designed to use the half-cock as a safety. The Model 92/94 and the Model 97 Winchesters are examples.

I've never understood this fear of lowering a hammer on a hot chamber. It's been done with other designs for a couple centuries. Why all of a sudden is it so fraught with peril when done with a 1911 pistol?

Odd that...

nastytrigger
06-15-2012, 11:14
Thanks for all the feedback.

My friends intention is to carry a Sig P938 in his pocket, on his hip, or in his car.

I've offered to him my Springer 1911 as a loaner to try out (he's shot it, just not carried), become familiar/comfortable with the controls.

He was concerned about dropping too, but I told him that there's more of a concern of the inertia of a firing pin firing from a drop, than that of the hammer falling from a drop.

As far as carrying, or intentionally lowering, the hammer down on a loaded/live round, I've thought about trying it (just to practice shooting from that condition at a range session), but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I feel uncomfortable doing it with a revolver too, but I've done it (feel uncomfortable doing it outside of a range environment).

mrsurfboard
06-15-2012, 12:04
You should show your friend a M&P handgun. They are cocked all the time too, just can't see the internal striker. Thousands of LEOs carry them everyday. When I got my first 1911, it bothered me too.

countrygun
06-15-2012, 13:30
I think I read all of the posts and something seems missing here. I don't think JMB intended "cocked and locked" but it works well. what is missing here, at least I couldn't find it in the thread, is a discussion about just how safe is cocking the hammer at some point during the draw or after, under stress in an SD situation? I can tell you the hammer on a 1911 is not as easy to "work with" under stress as is a SAA. I have seen more fumbles cocking a 1911 than I have taking the safety off. In an SD pistol the fewer the fumble possibilities the more I like it.

Psychman
06-15-2012, 13:30
There is probably more chance of the Glock safety system not working when it hits the holster and going off than the 1911 safety system not functioning.


GREAT. Now you went and did it.




:rofl:

maestrogustav
06-15-2012, 13:38
There is no way that going through the entire firing action with a round in the chamber, while depending only on the fatty portion of a finger to interrupt it, can be considered safe today.

Do. Not. Lower. Hammer. On. Loaded. Chamber.

a few decades ago, no one even thought about strapping their kids to their seats while hurtling down the highway in their Oldsmobile. Does that mean we should emulate that behavior today?

1911Tuner
06-15-2012, 15:44
I have seen more fumbles cocking a 1911 than I have taking the safety off.

Because most of the cockers don't know how...just like most of the de-cockers don't know how.

Cock it while it's still in the holster, just as your hand finds the gun...then acquire the grip and draw. With a little dry practice, it's not at all hard to do, and it's faster than you might think. Just mind where your trigger finger is and you'll be fine.

The secret to lowering the hammer is to get control of it before you touch the trigger...not after. Trying to catch the hammer is a surefire way to light one off. Hard to describe in print, but easy to demonstrate.

Same goes for the pinch check that so many scream about being dangerous because it requires the finger to get in front of the muzzle...albeit below it. Reach up with your thumb and get control of the hammer. You'll notice that the grip safety will reset unless you've got seriously meaty paws. Now, the hammer can't fall even if the trigger is pulled...and the trigger can't be pulled because the grip safety is blocking it. Pinch away with confidence.

When lowering the hammer or pinch checking, be careful and don't get in a hurry. Mind your muzzle. Practice with an empty gun.

Cocked and locked carry is a relatively new thing. I suppose that we can credit Jeff Cooper for it, even though a few of the more savvy old-timers did it. Most people who carried the big Colt carried it in Condition 2 or at half-cock if they felt a need for speed.
Few carried them in C-1.

countrygun
06-15-2012, 15:55
Because most of the cockers don't know how...just like most of the de-cockers don't know how.

Cock it while it's still in the holster, just as your hand finds the gun...then acquire the grip and draw. With a little dry practice, it's not at all hard to do, and it's faster than you might think. Just mind where your trigger finger is and you'll be fine.

The secret to lowering the hammer is to get control of it before you touch the trigger...not after. Trying to catch the hammer is a surefire way to light one off. Hard to describe in print, but easy to demonstrate.

Same goes for the pinch check that so many scream about being dangerous because it requires the finger to get in front of the muzzle...albeit below it. Reach up with your thumb and get control of the hammer. You'll notice that the grip safety will reset unless you've got seriously meaty paws. Now, the hammer can't fall even if the trigger is pulled...and the trigger can't be pulled because the grip safety is blocking it. Pinch away with confidence.

When lowering the hammer or pinch checking, be careful and don't get in a hurry. Mind your muzzle. Practice with an empty gun.

Cocked and locked carry is a relatively new thing. I suppose that we can credit Jeff Cooper for it, even though a few of the more savvy old-timers did it. Most people who carried the big Colt carried it in Condition 2 or at half-cock if they felt a need for speed.
Few carried them in C-1.

The Texas Rangers that carried the 1911 frequently did, don't forget that the Remington 51 and other "hammerless" or concealed hammer pocket autos were carried "C&L"

Snaps
06-15-2012, 16:29
makes me wonder why people have so little faith in their ability to ride a hammer down but still feel comfortable carrying a gun wtih no safety. Hrmmm

countrygun
06-15-2012, 16:43
makes me wonder why people have so little faith in their ability to ride a hammer down but still feel comfortable carrying a gun wtih no safety. Hrmmm

I do have to admit, that when loading six in my Beretta/Uberti SAA clone (Yes, it is designed with a transfer bar to make it safe) it is easier and comportable to lower the hammer than it is on my CZs. No "boo-boo's" with either however.

1911Tuner
06-15-2012, 16:50
The Texas Rangers that carried the 1911 frequently did.

And I said "most people" didn't. The few who did had a real need for instant readiness...like the Texas rangers.

Truthfully, the pistol can be carried in Condition Zero as safely as in C-1 as long as the grip safety is functional.
The thumb safety is there for reholstering under stress on horseback...not for continuous carry.

To the OP:

Have your friend carry an empty 1911 for a month, cocked with the safety in the fire position. Unless he grips the gun and pulls the trigger, the hammer will still be cocked at the end of the month.

FLIPPER 348
06-15-2012, 18:55
Do. Not. Lower. Hammer. On. Loaded. Chamber.




I do it all the time, no worries.

okie
06-15-2012, 20:06
Why would you even want to?

Cocked and locked is easier and much safer.

This:thumbsup:

4Rules
06-15-2012, 20:13
The C&S SFS (Safety Fast Shooting System) kit (http://www.cylinder-slide.com/cond5.shtml) was made for situations like this.

<http://www.cylinder-slide.com/cond5.shtml>
<http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=SFSkits>

Jim Watson
06-15-2012, 20:18
I suggest that what Mr Browning and Colt management "intended" was to come up with a design they could sell thousands and thousands of guns to the army with.

As to use of the safety catch, who cares if it was intended for the convenience of the cavalry? Surely we have learned a few things since then. After all, the 1903 Springfield has a magazine cutoff so you can fire it single shot until the enemy charges and not waste ammunition in the meanwhile. Does that still sound like a good idea, too?

Does anybody here say that the gun is as READY TO SHOOT when carried other than "cocked and locked?"

Note, I used to do it. I still have the Commander with spur hammer installed for the purpose of Condition 2 carry. I never shot myself in the foot when lowering the hammer, or dropped the gun while thumb cocking it. But I finally realized the guy who advocated the technique was lefthanded in a day before ambidextrous safeties. And sure enough, when I tried using the safety catch as it can be operated (notice I do not say "intended") I found it faster and more secure than all that manipulation of the hammer down and up.

sentinel208
06-15-2012, 20:22
I have carried mine cocked and locked many many times and have yet to shoot myself. No worries here either...To each his own I guess.

Shark1007
06-15-2012, 20:25
I think it was Cooper who said regarding condition two (hammer down live round) that it should be done in a freshly plowed field with no rocks to cause riccochets from bullets hitting the ground every time you re-holster your gun.

Condition one and only for me.

nastytrigger
06-15-2012, 20:42
On carrying Condition 2, any concern of the hammer getting hit with enough force to fire the chambered round?

Snaps
06-15-2012, 21:06
I do it all the time, no worries.

same here. I trust myself to not slip on the hammer as much as I trust myself to not accidentally pull the trigger on my glocks.

Being said.....if you don't trust yourself, don't do what you're afraid you can't.

bac1023
06-15-2012, 21:35
I don't recommend ever lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber.

That being said, the 1911 was basically designed to do it. The half cock position is there to prevent the gun from firing should your thumb slip off the hammer while cocking it on a loaded chamber.

Of course, times have changed and cocked and locked is certainly the safest and most widely accepted way to carry a 1911.

Jim Watson
06-15-2012, 21:36
I think it was Cooper who said regarding condition two (hammer down live round) that it should be done in a freshly plowed field with no rocks to cause riccochets from bullets hitting the ground every time you re-holster your gun.

I recall Col Cooper saying that Condition 2 was suitable for a gun to be stored loaded but off the body.


On carrying Condition 2, any concern of the hammer getting hit with enough force to fire the chambered round?

No, that is the purpose of the inertial firing pin, shorter than its tunnel, sprung backwards, and not protruding into the primer unless struck with some force. With the hammer down, the firing pin is held in the middle of the tunnel with nothing to drive it forward.

Shark1007
06-15-2012, 21:36
Yes, there is a huge drop fire concern with condition two.

CDR_Glock
06-15-2012, 21:47
It's weird. Anytime this friend see's my 1911, he becomes weirded-out by my cocked and locked 1911. I've explained the design, the safeties, etc., numerous times.

He's been wanting a 1911, but even more so, he's wanting a Sig P938 (nearly same manual of arms, minus grip safety). He has two Glock's and a Taurus .38Spc, so 1911's are a different design to him.

He's afraid that the hammer will fall inadvertently, from what I gather. Says he'd feel more comfortable chambering a round, and then lowering the hammer (on that live round) for carry... Ugh.

Is this an old revolver mind-set? What's so scary about cocked and locked?

So does your friend actually carry? I'm guessing "No."

I have a P938. I also carry a 1911 Ed Brown Special Forces. I feel safer with the 1911 because the grip safety needs to be depressed to fire. I'm also significantly more accurate with it.

1911Tuner
06-16-2012, 03:29
Yes, there is a huge drop fire concern with condition two.

No more than with condition One, and probably a bit less.

Although the firing pin is about .050 inch closer to the primer, the extra bit of compression of the spring offsets it. Momentum robbed at the beginning of the acceleration is more effective at reducing impact than after it's established. In any event, any difference is negligible.

Anyway, it's gone a little wide of the mark. Getting fumble-fingered and dropping the gun aside, the 1911 is safe to carry in Condition One. The sear would have to instantaneously disappear before it could go off in a holster, and the sear just isn't that fragile.

It can even be carried in Condition Zero, but that's not the question here.

It's as safe to carry in Condition Two or at half-cock as it is in Condition One. The safest way is Condition Three as no loaded gun can ever be completely "safe."

It's a little risky getting it into Condition Two or half-cocked, but once it's there, the danger is over. Be careful. Go slow. Do it properly.

Browning had no intent as to the mode of carry. He provided multiple options and left it to Army protocol to decide. In short, Browning...along with a team of Colt's engineers...delivered what was asked of them. No more and no less.

rich52us
06-16-2012, 04:12
Yes, there is a huge drop fire concern with condition two.

I thought the grip safety was there in an attempt to prevent drop fire.

1911Tuner
06-16-2012, 05:08
I thought the grip safety was there in an attempt to prevent drop fire.

It is, but not in the way that many think. If the pistol is dropped straight down onto the muzzle from a height of 6-8 feet, the grip safety won't do a thing to prevent a discharge.

The grip safety prevents drop-fire if it's dropped from a height of 6-8 feet and lands muzzle up without actually hitting straight onto the cocked hammer.

Remember that the pistol was designed primarily for mounted cavalry. In the event of a detached lanyard...either intentionally or not...dropping the gun from the back of a horse during an action could result in it inverting and striking the ground with the gun pointed at the horse and/or the rider.

The gun comes to an abrupt halt, and the heavy steel trigger obeys Newton 2 and remains in motion...overcoming the sear spring and bumping the disconnect...rolling the sear out of the hammer hooks, possibly with enough force to prevent the sear from resetting and grabbing the half-cock notch. Bang. Horse or rider is shot.

This is actually a pretty unlikely scenario even without the grip safety. The grip safety just eliminates it completely.

So many people today hate the grip safety, saying that it serves no purpose...and some of them have expressed puzzlement at just what Browning was thinking...but there was a reason for it being there. It had an important function in 1912, and it still does today. If you drop a pistol...unless you purposely try to drop it straight down onto the muzzle...it's more likely to invert and hit the ground muzzle up than muzzle down.

1911Tuner
06-16-2012, 05:34
I've got a little time on my hands, so let's explore the question of the grip safety a little deeper. Specifically, the feeling that so many have concerning its purpose and its usefulness.

The 1911 pistol was designed for a specific purpose...on request by a military entity. The nature of contracting means that the paying customer pretty much gets what he wants. The US Army decided that it wanted a grip safety clear back in 1905...and they got one.

The pistol was intended primarily for mounted cavalry. It wasn't designed for IDPA and USPA competition, and fast draw from a speed rig was never remotely considered. It was mandated and assumed that the horse soldier would store the pistol with the hammer down on an empty chamber until such time as it was needed for charging an enemy position. The pistol would then be readied by chambering a round, engaging the manual safety, and riding forth to do battle. Just before the point of contact, the manual safety was disengaged, and the fighting commenced.

In the event of the trooper being shot, he would quite naturally drop the pistol. Mass and momentum being what it is, the gun would stand a good chance of striking the ground with the muzzle pointed up...either at the riderless horse or at one of the downed trooper's fellows. Friendly fire being just as dangerous as enemy fire...the grip safety eliminated a round of friendly fire from the storm. Striking with the muzzle down and firing into the ground would be of no consequence...so that wasn't a huge concern except in garrison...and the pistol wasn't supposed to be maintained with a hot chamber in that situation.

ithaca_deerslayer
06-16-2012, 06:41
I don't recommend ever lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber.

That being said, the 1911 was basically designed to do it. The half cock position is there to prevent the gun from firing should your thumb slip off the hammer while cocking it on a loaded chamber.

Of course, times have changed and cocked and locked is certainly the safest and most widely accepted way to carry a 1911.

How do you lower the hammer on a loaded revolver you've decided not to shoot? Seems to me the hammer HAS to be lowered on a live chamber.

But with the 1911, you have the choice of putting the safety on and leaving it cocked until you decide to unload by pulling the mag and racking the slide.

Shark1007
06-16-2012, 07:24
1911 Drop Testing
The original testing used a 9mm steel firing pin and a 9mm titanium firing pin. The firing pin hole was then reamed for a .45 sized pin and the tests were repeated with .45 sized steel and titanium firing pins. All of the firing pins were weighed prior to testing. A Wolff XP firing pin return spring was used for all of the testing. All of the cases used for testing used Winchester large pistol primers. The frame and slide were donated by Gary Smith at Caspian. The pistol was built using techniques learned from Larry Vickers and Bruce Gray. The pistol was tied to a section of 550 cord, looped over a pulley, and dropped onto common floor materials. The magazine was loaded with 8 dummy rounds to bring the pistol up to proper weight. Four floor types were selected. Concrete, Pergo, 5/8 plywood, and shag type carpeting. The thumb safety was left OFF as preliminary testing with the safety ON indicated that damage to the thumb safety, slide, and plunger tube would occur with only a few drops. The hammer frequently dropped to the half cock notch during testing.
Firing Pin Weights:
9mm STI titanium pin--- 2.17 grams
9mm Caspian steel pin --- 4.45 grams
.45 STI titanium pin --- 2.36 grams
.45 Colt steel pin --- 4.30 grams
I was amazed at how easily a Series 70 1911 could be drop fired. Steel firing pins and concrete are a bad combination. 9mm sized pins and titanium construction will add several feet to your safe drop distance. I will be running Wolff XP springs and a Ti pin in all of my Series 70 type 1911’s.
I have attached an Excel spread sheet with the results. You will notice a lot of “Did Not Drop” entries. I saw no reason to drop test a particular combination of firing pin and flooring if it was not firing at higher distances or on harder flooring. I did several drops at various distances to get an idea of safe drop distances. This was to account for hard or sensitive primers. Each primed case was dropped only once. Just in case you were wondering, the pistol sustained significant damage. The muzzle is distorted from being dropped. I had to turn down the outside diameter of the barrel three times just to keep the slide from locking up. The muzzle, magwell, and grip safety have some serious blending in their future. Nothing sounds worse than a 1911 hitting the concrete from 10 feet!

Jim Watson
06-16-2012, 07:54
It was mandated and assumed that the horse soldier would store the pistol with the hammer down on an empty chamber until such time as it was needed for charging an enemy position.

And there is the big difference between an early military use and modern personal and police use. You describe an offensive application for the pistol, we now mostly use the handgun for defense and do not have the luxury of loading our weapon only when a known enemy is in plain sight.

Times change, let's just enjoy the versatility of a well thought out design.

Fairshake
06-16-2012, 08:01
I have been a fan of the 1911 all my life and as a former Army 4th ID soldier and a cop of 15 years I've carried this gun.
In 1965 when I signed up to the ARMY life they carried the 1911 in it's holster with a full magazine, hammer down on a empty chamber. You were instructed to draw the weapon from the holster and while doing so move the slide to the rear to put a round into full battery and ready to fire. At no time did you carry the weapon with the cocked and locked of Cooper fame.
After the service and while a Deputy Sheriff in Baton Rouge, La. I carried the 1911 again except in the cocked and locked position.
I was stopped by several civilians every day so they could inform me that my gun was cocked and subject to go off any second. It was so bad that I began to carry the gun in the position of hammer down on safety notch.
If you search for any early nomenclature of the 1911, you will find this position noted in the notes as being the safety notch position.
I never had a problem drawing the 1911 and doing the same thing I do with any SAA revolver and that is cocking the hammer as it comes from the holster.
It's my experience that both ways work and if you practice with either or both styles, they will work for you.

cdog533
06-16-2012, 08:06
I am seriously flabbergasted that anyone would actually suggest there is a safe way to lower the hammer on a live round of a 1911. If the weapon is not equipped with a hammer drop mechanism (Sig Sauer), the only time that hammer should drop on a live round is when it is pointed at something (someone) that you intend to shoot. To suggest anything else would be the same as saying it's safe to play russian roulette 5/6 of the time. Naysayers and internet experts can beat their chests all they want. Your protests are as ridiculous as the very idea. There are only two safe ways to carry a loaded 1911. Locked and cocked or cold. Anything else is a ticking time bomb. Posting it on a public message board very well could bite one in the rear end some day. :dunno:

I agree. Anything other than this is pure misinformation and NOT taught by instructors...

It's either condition one or condition 3 for a 1911. With multiple safeties, Condition 1 seems fine. Maybe for a Hi-power or something, Cond 3 is safer.

FLIPPER 348
06-16-2012, 08:08
I agree. Anything other than this is pure misinformation and NOT taught by instructors...




Actually it's pure fact as the way the 1911 was designed.

cdog533
06-16-2012, 08:14
I can tell you the hammer on a 1911 is not as easy to "work with" under stress as is a SAA. I have seen more fumbles cocking a 1911 than I have taking the safety off. In an SD pistol the fewer the fumble possibilities the more I like it.

Agreed. With a revolver, it's an easier movement, and one I pay FULL attention to when I do it on my SA guns. Like FULL attention, like handling a loaded gun or something kind of attention...

cdog533
06-16-2012, 08:18
Actually it's pure fact as the way the 1911 was designed.

Aren't you just begging for an accidental discharge? Cooper thought so.

I'd rather pull the mag, rack it, drop hammer, and then reinsert mag, and just leave it in 3. Decocking seems more dangerous.

Would you hand decock Beretta 92 under the same circumstance (not using the decocker lever I mean)??? A 92 really is not a Cond 1 gun unless you are wacky, so it has to go down. A Beretta hammer is NOT designed for hand decocking.

(All respect to Flipper348, a knowledgeable senior member, in these posts. We are just getting opinions out for discussion, which is good!...)

1911Tuner
06-16-2012, 08:26
And there is the big difference between an early military use and modern personal and police use.

Understood and acknowledged, Jim. My point was simply to explain the original intent, and why these features are there...and that they are all viable options. And...as I've noted before...whenever I carry a 1911, it's cocked and locked. I'm not arguing against C-1 any more than I'm arguing for C-2 or 3.

When I was spending a lot of time knockin' around in the boondocks...if I carried a 1911 instead of a heavy revolver...I carried in Condition Two in a full flap holster in order to offer the pistol maximum protection from hard knocks and the elements while still having the option of one-hand operation if needed. Any other scenario, it's in Condition One. Has been for nearly 40 years.

Shark1007
06-16-2012, 08:48
Tuner

I did the same, condition two, when I was duty carrying one and it always gave me the creeps to lower the hammer with the muzzle in the dirt barrel by the door.

I was appropriately schooled and went to C1 ever after.

I'm involved with a drop fire case (not a 1911) coming up soon where the diabetic fellow will be having a leg amputation pretty soon and am conversant with the issue.

FireForged
06-16-2012, 08:51
That's exactly correct. A difference of opinions is healthy most of the time. Both parties can learn something if they have open minds. This is different.

Suggesting that anyone intentionally defeat the safeties of their firearm while it is loaded and then pull the trigger is dangerous. There is nothing to discuss here.

well said.. +1

rich52us
06-16-2012, 08:59
And there is the big difference between an early military use and modern personal and police use. You describe an offensive application for the pistol, we now mostly use the handgun for defense and do not have the luxury of loading our weapon only when a known enemy is in plain sight.

Times change, let's just enjoy the versatility of a well thought out design.

Good observation and good post. I agree.

1911Tuner
06-16-2012, 09:04
Shark...

Have you ever practiced the overhand pinch method of lowering the hammer? It's a lot less "hinky" than trying to control the hammer with the strong-hand thumb...as long as you get full control of the hammer before pulling the trigger.

The original wide-spur hammers provided a solid, non-slip purchase for that particular method. I have to at least consider the possibility that it's the purpose for those wide spurs. It's long been understood that the extra mass wasn't needed for reliable ignition, so...why were they made that way? Common sense tells us that the narrow spur hammers were faster and cheaper to machine.

SeeJohnLikeSig&Glock
06-16-2012, 10:59
2 things are needed to overcome the fear of carrying with a live round.

1) a good sturdy holster that fully covers the trigger
2) a training course with an instructor that knows the 1911 platform

The holster is true for any firearm. Not all instructors know the 1911, so find one that does. Dont hesitate to ask about who to use in your locality. Folks on this forum could recommend one for sure.

Going through a training course with an instructor will alleviate any confusion on carry method. There is only one method you will be trained on.

1911Tuner
06-16-2012, 11:04
Suggesting that anyone intentionally defeat the safeties of their firearm while it is loaded and then pull the trigger is dangerous. There is nothing to discuss here.

I'm certainly not going to try to convince anyone to do something that they're not comfortable with...but as I've said more than once...If the day comes that I don't have the manual dexterity to lower a hammer without lighting one off, I'll sell all my guns and take up golf.

My points were technical...not tactical. The pistol can be carried in any one of three modes, as you choose. Four if you count half-cocked. Lowering the hammer carries some risk, but so does driving and cooking on a gas grill. If one is careful, the risks are nearly...nearly...insignificant.

The bottom line:

Is gun. Gun not safe.

MD357
06-16-2012, 11:06
Geez, much ado about nothing.

I've never seen an acredited instructor teach carry 2 as a default for the 1911. There's a reason for that. If people want a slower and ineffecient way to carry that provides more potential for variables, then so be it. To the original point, if condition 1 scares you then you need real training/instruction.

1911Tuner
06-16-2012, 11:43
I've never seen an acredited instructor teach carry 2 as a default for the 1911.

And that has what to do with the fact that it can be if so desired?

Personal choice, often dictated by circumstances...is the "best" way.

Again...Technical, not tactical. Nobody's arguing that Condition One isn't tactically the best way to carry. Just that it's not the only way. Carrying a sidearm isn't always about sudden wild-west gunfights and taking out multiple bad guys, after all. If it was, carrying a single-action revolver on the trail would be the dumbest thing anyone could do.

There are a couple of good reasons for keeping the hammer down in certain circumstances. (Think practical...not tactical.)

FLIPPER 348
06-16-2012, 12:02
Aren't you just begging for an accidental discharge? Cooper thought so.



With a GI spur hammer it is a no brainer. I don't care what Copper or anybody else thought. I would not attempt to lower a hammer with shorter geometry down on a live round.

When I carry a 1911 in the wilderness or keep one on the nightstand it is hammer down on a live one as all of mine are A1. If I CCWed a 1911 it would be in condition 1.

MD357
06-16-2012, 13:25
And that has what to do with the fact that it can be if so desired?


Hey like I said, much ado about nothing. If you want to get into retarded and moot arguments about opinions of the "intention" and the ability of other carry methods then by all means.

Personal choice, often dictated by circumstances...is the "best" way.

Again...Technical, not tactical. Nobody's arguing that Condition One isn't tactically the best way to carry. Just that it's not the only way. Carrying a sidearm isn't always about sudden wild-west gunfights and taking out multiple bad guys, after all. If it was, carrying a single-action revolver on the trail would be the dumbest thing anyone could do.


The "tactical" label is lost on me, it's used by gun mags and poor marketing. You've also lost me on the reaching wild west red herring. What I do know is that you have less variables if you are trying to defend yourself out of condition one. It's really just that simple as that's mainly why I carry a 1911. If one carries for other reasons other than self defense, then I'm sure many "conditions" will work. :supergrin:

MD357
06-16-2012, 13:33
When I carry a 1911 in the wilderness or keep one on the nightstand it is hammer down on a live one as all of mine are A1. If I CCWed a 1911 it would be in condition 1.

Just curious as to the opinion on the theory there..... it's your life but fumbling around in the dark, half asleep, with a hammer on a loaded chamber isn't for me. Relative to saying you would carry condition 1 that is.

nastytrigger
06-16-2012, 18:31
So does your friend actually carry? I'm guessing "No."

I have a P938. I also carry a 1911 Ed Brown Special Forces. I feel safer with the 1911 because the grip safety needs to be depressed to fire. I'm also significantly more accurate with it.

He does carry. He has a snub Taurus .38Spc he either pocket carries, or carries in a Fobus paddle. It's a 851 Protector. All five chambers are loaded (believe it or not, I did have to show him how the transfer bar worked to settle his nerves. He left a chamber empty at first...). He's never bought any ammo for his .38Spc. I've bought it all (not much, about 150rds). He bought the revolver, but I owned it for a couple months from him, before trading him for a Kel-Tec.

He has two Glock's. Never seen them! He also has two Mossberg shotguns and a few .22LR rifles.

PlasticGuy
06-16-2012, 20:09
I'm certainly not going to try to convince anyone to do something that they're not comfortable with...but as I've said more than once...If the day comes that I don't have the manual dexterity to lower a hammer without lighting one off, I'll sell all my guns and take up golf...
Even if I agreed with that statement (and I don't), you would still be faced with the problem of preparing it to fire. When confronted with a couple bad guys and need to deploy that condition 2 pistol, you will need to cock the hammer quickly and while under extreme stress. Is that 100% safe? It's at least debatable. Is it slower and more prone to fumbling? Absolutely.

Condition 3 (Israeli carry) is a lot more valid argument than condition 2. At least it's 100% safe and is less prone to slips and fumbling.

Cobra64
06-17-2012, 00:57
How do you get it fully loaded with the hammer down? You load the pistol, defeat all safety mechanisms, and then pull the trigger. If your thumb doesn't slip, great. If it does, you get a bang when you don't want one. That's unsafe.

My Ruger Bisley Vaquero has no safety (obviously) and the only way you can lower the hammer is by pulling the trigger, or thumbing the hammer.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ruger/P1020138.jpg


It's been done that way on revolvers for 150+ years I believe.

Cobra64
06-17-2012, 01:05
Have you ever tried it before? There's different ways of doing it. One way is to put your thumb in between the hammer and frame and slowly ease the hammer up. I suppose I shouldn't have brought my experience with other pistols into the matter as a 1911 does not a hammer drop safety like a CZ75.

Anyone who has ever owned a revolver, watched a western, or an old cop show when they carried .38s, understands how to safely lower a hammer.

Cobra64
06-17-2012, 01:07
It's meant ta be carried C@L.'08.

What's with the @ symbol?

Cocked at locked?

MSgt Dotson
06-17-2012, 01:17
Those that are phobia-prone/nervous at the sight of a Condition 1 pistol likely do not understand the interaction of the properly fitted/functioning thumb safety with the sear and hammer.

IMO, those that that carry it any other way are defeating most of the pistol's primary strengths (complete safety, yet lightning-speed transition to total readiness/Condition '0'), but, that is their freedom of choice, however misguided. I only wish/hope for their sakes (and souls!) they don't fumble the hammer (for condition 2 users) or racking the slide (condition 3) when perhaps fractions of a second might really count.

1911Tuner
06-18-2012, 02:38
What I do know is that you have less variables if you are trying to defend yourself out of condition one.

And I never said different. Tactically...Condition One is the fastest, simplest, and most sound way to ready the pistol for a fight. No argument. I'm on board with that, and whenever I carry a 1911, it's cocked and locked. I'm only pointing out that there are other options if so desired. The design of the pistol offers those options.

Whenever somebody expresses a fear of cocked and locked carry, I carefully explain the function of the pistol to them in order to put their minds at ease...but for me to tell them flat out that cocked and locked is the only way to carry one is patently false and it's a backhanded way of saying: "If you don't do it like I say, you're an idiot."

Along with the "Shall Issue" laws, there seems to be a prevailing belief that our moment of truth will be a blazing gunfight, and I see guys who once carefully and illegally concealed a Model 37 Smith are now carrying a full-sized pistol with 3 spare magazines...a backup gun...and a folding "fighting knife" just in case...you know...they run dry and have to go hand-to-hand....for a trip to the store for milk and bread on a Sunday afternoon. You know...just in case a buncha Marva Salvatruchas decide to make a run on the Piggly Wiggly in Onehorse, Arkansas.

The plain, simple truth is that...outside of law enforcement...very few of us even need to carry a gun. We carry one because we can, and because it comforts us, and because it's better to have and not need than vice-versa...and that's reason enough. We have the right to keep and bear arms. I completely support that right.

But a real or defined "need" to carry? Nope. It's just not there for most of us.

Over the span of my life, I've known a few men who had a need to carry a gun for various reasons...and they carried one daily regardless of the legalities. With only one exception, they carried .38 Special revolvers and they didn't carry speed loaders. The only one who carried spare ammo carried a few rounds loose in his pocket. The prevailing sentiment was: "If I live long enough to run out, the matter will be settled. Either he'll be dead or I will."

Most of these men were very savvy gunmen. They'd all seen the elephant at least once, so they understood the question. They were also very good with their revolvers. None of them practiced fast-draw, however. They relied on their situational awareness to warn them that it was time to go for their guns. One in particular stands out. Nothing got past him. He could read a room better and quicker than anybody I've ever known. He carried a Model 10 tucked into the front of his waistband. His carry load was standard velocity LSWC.

rich52us
06-18-2012, 06:45
It's weird. Anytime this friend see's my 1911, he becomes weirded-out by my cocked and locked 1911. I've explained the design, the safeties, etc., numerous times.

He's been wanting a 1911, but even more so, he's wanting a Sig P938 (nearly same manual of arms, minus grip safety). He has two Glock's and a Taurus .38Spc, so 1911's are a different design to him.

He's afraid that the hammer will fall inadvertently, from what I gather. Says he'd feel more comfortable chambering a round, and then lowering the hammer (on that live round) for carry... Ugh.

Is this an old revolver mind-set? What's so scary about cocked and locked?

I just went back and re-read the OP. It's about his friend being afraid that the hammer will inadvertently fall and cause the pistol to fire when it is unintended. With a properly maintained pistol, and a properly trained operator, in my mind this is an unwarranted fear. As stated many time above in th thread, there are safeties in place to prevent an AD/ND simply from carrying in the C & L mode.

Yes, there are other conditions/modes to carry a 1911 pistol. I think most of us, and I know myself included, carry their 1911 pistol for self defense (I'm not in the Cavalry). The fastest way to get the 1911 into action in a s/d situation (under stress) is C & L. It's probably also the safest. Therefore, that's how I carry mine. Anyone else can carry theirs any was they like that doesn't endanger other people.

But......the fear that it is unsafe to carry a 1911 pistol C & L is unfounded. Therefore, IMO, the OP's friend's fear is unfounded. I think that was the core of the OP's post.

(P.S.: I'm on my way to the range to break-in my new Colt Defender that I will carry IW, C & L.)

fnfalman
06-18-2012, 07:42
And that has what to do with the fact that it can be if so desired?

Personal choice, often dictated by circumstances...is the "best" way.

Again...Technical, not tactical. Nobody's arguing that Condition One isn't tactically the best way to carry. Just that it's not the only way. Carrying a sidearm isn't always about sudden wild-west gunfights and taking out multiple bad guys, after all. If it was, carrying a single-action revolver on the trail would be the dumbest thing anyone could do.

There are a couple of good reasons for keeping the hammer down in certain circumstances. (Think practical...not tactical.)

I'm with you.

People only see ONE thing preached by the cool folks and that's all there is to it.

What happens to the gun carrier practices his/her organic computer to match his/her own conditions?

MD357
06-18-2012, 10:32
I'm on board with that, and whenever I carry a 1911, it's cocked and locked. I'm only pointing out that there are other options if so desired. The design of the pistol offers those options.

Already acknowledged this and pointed out the futility. To put it in a more obvious manner, I can drive with one hand on the wheel, but it doesn't mean it's the most safe and efficient way to do so.

Along with the "Shall Issue" laws, there seems to be a prevailing belief that our moment of truth will be a blazing gunfight, and I see guys who once carefully and illegally concealed a Model 37 Smith are now carrying a full-sized pistol with 3 spare magazines...a backup gun...and a folding "fighting knife" just in case...you know...they run dry and have to go hand-to-hand....for a trip to the store for milk and bread on a Sunday afternoon. <snip>

Non-sequitur post is all non-sequitury.

However, regarding your perception of need, I'm just going to say that you definitely have a complacent point of view and more power to you. I will say that your use of "we" is egocentric though, as I know a significant number that don't feel the way you do in terms of your definition of "need." Which is fine, there are a lot of people out there that don't wear helmets, or use seat belts. Odds are they may never "need" it.

This isn't to say that I carry multiple firearms on my person at all times, it's just to say that just because someone's LE pappy carried a SA revolver all his life doesn't mean that will work for the rest of the world. :supergrin:

1911Tuner
06-19-2012, 05:39
However, regarding your perception of need, I'm just going to say that you definitely have a complacent point of view

I'm not complacent at all. I'm all too aware of the world that we live in. I'm just a bit more realistic than most. It's not like very many of us have ever been involved in running gunfights outside of an active war zone. Even many police officers put in 25 years and never draw their guns, and for those that do...about 90% of the time, they don't pull the triggers. For the ones that do, about 90% of them never shoot those guns dry.

So, whenever I see one of these guys who go out in the middle of the day, armed to the teeth with enough ammo to hold off a small Mongol horde, I think to myself: "You're gonna make quite a clatter when that guy walks up behind you in the auto teller line and cold cocks you with a ball peen hammer.

I know a significant number that don't feel the way you do in terms of your definition of "need."

Also understood and acknowledged. I never presume to understand the needs of another man...real or perceived. I've just noticed that the perceived need has gone up sharply with the shall issue CCW laws, and many of the guys that used to carry 5-shot snub-nosed revolvers...and never needed them, by the way...suddenly feel under armed unless they're carrying enough hardware to wreck their lower backs. Odd, that.

Now for the hard truth.

If you are unfortunate enough to be facing multiple adversaries, all armed and all shooting...you're probably dead anyway. If you happen to get lucky and survive the opening stroke, all that hardware will slow you down when you decide that making a stand isn't the best course of action. You have to get lucky every time one of them pulls the trigger. They only have to get lucky once.

And finally...again...My points on cocked and locked are technical and have nothing to do with how anyone wants to carry a 1911 pistol. It can be safely carried cocked and locked if one so desires. It can safely be carried in Condition 2 or 3 or half-cocked if one so desires. The hammer can be lowered without issue if carefully and properly done. How you or anyone else decides to carry it is a matter of personal preference. It's not my call, nor is it yours. I'm only explaining the function of the gun.

1911Tuner
06-19-2012, 06:25
One last post on this one, and I'm out.

It's almost funny. Whenever I get involved in a discussion
on the method of carry, there seems to be a few common threads.

I always describe the function of the gun and outline the options, and it always comes back to "Cocked and Locked or carry a revolver" because if you don't carry it cocked and locked, you don't have a prayer.

There seems to be a one-track mindedness. Despite my saying over and over and over that I'm only explaining the mechanics of the pistol. I'm not sure if this is because they read only about every other line, or if they're just OCD.

There also seems to be the inability for the "Cocked and Locked or carry a revolver" crowd to wrap their heads around the concept of personal choice.

As far as it goes, consider if you will the members of the Israeli Defense League who, when not carrying a rifle or submachine gun on active duty, are required to be armed at all times. When off-duty, they carry their pistols concealed in Condition 3...and they seem to do pretty well when the flag flies despite being at a tactical disadvantage...or whatever you want to call it.

They do well when the flag flies because they are cocked and locked and ready to rock...not because their pistols are. They're always on the watch for something that seems wrong, and they don't rely on a half-second quick draw.

Mindset...Skillset...Toolset.

For those of us who don't operate under a constant threat, a snub-nosed 38 may well be the better choice...at least for those of us who don't have a real or defined need to carry a gun. In the vast majority of lethal encounters, the matter is settled in about 3 seconds at a range of about 3 feet, with about 3 rounds. Also known as the Rule of Threes.

faawrenchbndr
06-19-2012, 06:46
Great post,......:thumbsup:

MD357
06-19-2012, 08:19
I'm not complacent at all. I'm all too aware of the world that we live in. I'm just a bit more realistic than most. It's not like very many of us have ever been involved in running gunfights outside of an active war zone. Even many police officers put in 25 years and never draw their guns, and for those that do...about 90% of the time, they don't pull the triggers. For the ones that do, about 90% of them never shoot those guns dry.

Again, your being a bit egocentric as you believe your "realistic" world applies to everyone. For me, I've just been exposed to enough situations where I felt I should be more prepared, through training or a good platform. This doesn't follow the dramatic polarization that someone believes they live in a war zone. It's just to have better equipment than a SA revolver, carry it in the most efficient manner, have a good holster, and know how to use it.

I've just noticed that the perceived need has gone up sharply with the shall issue CCW laws, and many of the guys that used to carry 5-shot snub-nosed revolvers...and never needed them, by the way...suddenly feel under armed unless they're carrying enough hardware to wreck their lower backs. Odd, that.

Without following the polarization TOO much.... again....there's nothing wrong with evolving from a revolver to something better like a number of semi-auto platforms can deliver. The 1911 being a much better choice for me, and many others due to the platforms versatility and better performance over a snub nose. This doesn't mean I walk around like batman with gadgets.

If you are unfortunate enough to be facing multiple adversaries, all armed and all shooting...you're probably dead anyway. If you happen to get lucky and survive the opening stroke, all that hardware will slow you down when you decide that making a stand isn't the best course of action. You have to get lucky every time one of them pulls the trigger. They only have to get lucky once.

Again.... non sequitur.

And finally...again...My points on cocked and locked are technical and have nothing to do with how anyone wants to carry a 1911 pistol. It can be safely carried cocked and locked if one so desires. It can safely be carried in Condition 2 or 3 or half-cocked if one so desires. The hammer can be lowered without issue if carefully and properly done. How you or anyone else decides to carry it is a matter of personal preference. It's not my call, nor is it yours. I'm only explaining the function of the gun.

Glad we could come full circle to what I've been saying. :supergrin: Although, I wouldn't recommend some people to lower the hammer and that they should get proper training so that they carry in the safest and most efficient manner for SD.

fnfalman
06-19-2012, 08:24
Okay, what Condition Number is cocked, unlocked but no round in chamber and loaded mag inside the mag well?

MD357
06-19-2012, 08:45
I always describe the function of the gun and outline the options, and it always comes back to "Cocked and Locked or carry a revolver" because if you don't carry it cocked and locked, you don't have a prayer.

Again, let's not be so dramatic in our polarizations. Can someone carry in other carry conditions? Absolutely. In the same manner someone can drive with one hand on the wheel all their lives. Is it the most efficient way to do so? No.

There seems to be a one-track mindedness. Despite my saying over and over and over that I'm only explaining the mechanics of the pistol. I'm not sure if this is because they read only about every other line, or if they're just OCD.

To be quite honest, the red herrings here came from yourself. You rambled quite a bit about what you think about people carrying too much these days, with no instigation. I don't remember anyone here saying that walking around with a utility belt was a requirement.

There also seems to be the inability for the "Cocked and Locked or carry a revolver" crowd to wrap their heads around the concept of personal choice.

The cliche saying... "Don't be so open-minded your brain falls out" comes to mind here. :cool:

As far as it goes, consider if you will the members of the Israeli Defense League who, when not carrying a rifle or submachine gun on active duty, are required to be armed at all times. When off-duty, they carry their pistols concealed in Condition 3...and they seem to do pretty well when the flag flies despite being at a tactical disadvantage...or whatever you want to call it.


And there it is.... the almost patented IDF argument. The IDF trains constantly in which it's intellectually dishonest to compare them to most that carry here. Can their method of carry be efficient? Yes, after constant training. Would they be faster in C&L'ed? Absolutely.

FWIW, if you do your homework on WHY they carry in C3... it's because they wanted the safest condition across many platforms, for a (at the time) largely untrained population.

Now for a bit of reality, I must ask to those that carry in other conditions or want to relay that there are other methods with an obvious bit of bias, what are you going to do if you don't have immediate use of your other arm? Reality points us in a direction that shows that in several scenarios you possibly don't have use of both arms. How are you going to rack the slide? or how easy would it be to manipulate a hammer? Tuner does have something right, confrontations aren't likely to be at twenty paces.....you will likely be up close and surprised.... possibly in retention. Something to think about kids. IF you carry, get some real training so you can carry efficiently and responsibly.

maestrogustav
06-19-2012, 18:51
The Israelis do condition 3. Most of the time, that'll work. Lots of times, it won't. It definitely won't work if you don't train your butt off.

OTOH condition 2 is simply stupid, I'm sorry. Cocking that little hammer is harder than racking the slide, and it requires at least one unsafe procedure.

1911Tuner
06-21-2012, 05:46
There also seems to be the inability for the "Cocked and Locked or carry a revolver" crowd to wrap their heads around the concept of personal choice.


The cliche saying... "Don't be so open-minded your brain falls out" comes to mind here.

I see. You have a problem with personal choice and self-determination.

Well, okay.

CARRY IT COCKED AND LOCKED OR LEAVE IT AT HOME!"

COCKED AND LOCKED, THE WAY JMB INTENDED!"

"IF YOU'RE AFRAID OF COCKED AND LOCKED, CARRY A REVOLVER!"

"LOWERING THE HAMMER IS WAY DANGEROUS! YOU'LL PUT YOUR EYE OUT WITH THAT THING!"

Theah! Now we can be friends again!

MD357
06-21-2012, 10:28
I see. You have a problem with personal choice and self-determination.

Nope. If someone needs to feel safer then again, a good class is in order so that they understand the level of safety instead of superficial fears. Going by what I've said (in which I dunno why it's being ignored) I've said that certain alternative ways of carry need more training to be efficient if that's how you insist on carrying. That being said, they'll never be as proficient as C&L'ed in terms of SD.

1911Tuner
06-21-2012, 11:28
Nope. If someone needs to feel safer then again, a good class is in order so that they understand the level of safety instead of superficial fears. Going by what I've said (in which I dunno why it's being ignored) I've said that certain alternative ways of carry need more training to be efficient if that's how you insist on carrying. That being said, they'll never be as proficient as C&L'ed in terms of SD.

And one more time...

Fear and perceived safety and proficiency have nothing to do with my points. To wit: The pistol can be safely carried in any of several ways if the owner so desires. Choice.

For some reason, your arguments keep coming back to: "Fast draw/Gunfight!"

But, we'll work with that just for giggles.

Consider if you will members of the Israeli Defense Force who, when not carrying a rifle or submachine gun on active duty, are required to be armed at all times. When off-duty, they carry their pistols concealed in Condition 3...and they seem to do pretty well when the flag flies despite being at a tactical disadvantage...or whatever you want to call it.

They do well when the trouble starts because they are cocked and locked and ready to rock...not because their pistols are. They're always on the watch for something that seems wrong, and they don't rely on a half-second quick draw.

Mindset...Skillset...Toolset. Remember?

I've said that certain alternative ways of carry need more training to be efficient if that's how you insist on carrying.

Who are you (Or I) to determine what somebody else needs to do? Isn't that a little like a politician dictating what guns that we need or don't need?

People who have made the decision to be armed are quite capable of making the decision whether to seek training or not. If they make the wrong choice, the consequences are theirs to bear.

Whenever I talk to someone who is considering buying a gun for personal protection, I always suggest that they seek some basic instruction at the very least...but to tell them what they "need" isn't my place. I also suggest frequent practice. Some take that advice and some don't. Again...their choice.

Many thousands of people have bought handguns for that purpose over the years...and have even used them successfully despite having never fired their guns before the moment of truth. An old man my father knew bought a Model 10 in the early 60s...fired it 6 times, loaded it with 158-grain LRN...and put it in his nightstand. In or around 1990, he had a break-in. He shot both of them down.

fnfalman
06-21-2012, 16:41
Who are you (Or I) to determine what somebody else needs to do? Isn't that a little like a politician dictating what guns that we need or don't need?

People who have made the decision to be armed are quite capable of making the decision whether to seek training or not. If they make the wrong choice, the consequences are theirs to bear.

Whenever I talk to someone who is considering buying a gun for personal protection, I always suggest that they seek some basic instruction at the very least...but to tell them what they "need" isn't my place. I also suggest frequent practice. Some take that advice and some don't. Again...their choice.


I'm with you. I am not good enough of an expert or mind reader to dictate or pontificate to others on what they should do with their guns and self-defense procedures. I doubt that anybody on Earth can be that sort of expert who knows everything about everything.

Give people advices and let them use the organic computers between their ears. In the end, they do what they do and they live with the consequences.

Brucev
06-21-2012, 19:39
"Many thousands of people have bought handguns for that purpose over the years...and have even used them successfully despite having never fired their guns before the moment of truth. An old man my father knew bought a Model 10 in the early 60s...fired it 6 times, loaded it with 158-grain LRN...and put it in his nightstand. In or around 1990, he had a break-in. He shot both of them down."

The incident you describe mirror the experience of my father except that no one died. I gave him my Model 19 upon graduation from seminary. A few years later he used it one night to stop some people from stealing the motor off his boat.

Of course, if everyone just bought handguns... fired them a few times... and then put them away until they were needed, there would be no interesting discussions like this one where so many knowledgeable people express such informed opinions based on real world personal SD/HD experience.

FLIPPER 348
06-21-2012, 22:21
......'training'??? whatever, I shot for recreation & fun. I've had plenty of firearms training many moons ago.


A revolver gets the nod for the ocassional CCW trip. A homebuilt light rail A1 1911 with the hammer down on a live one gets nightstand duty.

MD357
06-21-2012, 23:40
Fear and perceived safety and proficiency have nothing to do with my points.


You're the one that actually started down this road when you first responded to my post about acredited instructors. In reference to the posibility of carrying different ways, I've never argued. I just said they are less efficient and one should train more

For some reason, your arguments keep coming back to: "Fast draw/Gunfight!"


Your words, not mine. Along with "tactical" previously. To be clear, there are many more variables to consider than just speed. SO this assumption will have to be your little secret. :cool:

Consider if you will members of the Israeli Defense Force who, when not carrying a rifle or submachine gun on active duty, are required to be armed at all times. When off-duty, they carry their pistols concealed in Condition 3...and they seem to do pretty well when the flag flies despite being at a tactical disadvantage...or whatever you want to call it.

They do well when the trouble starts because they are cocked and locked and ready to rock...not because their pistols are. They're always on the watch for something that seems wrong, and they don't rely on a half-second quick draw.

Mindset...Skillset...Toolset. Remember?


Hence I said, if you want to carry this way you need to train as extensively as they do IF you want to be as proficient.

I don't know where you got that carrying C&L'ed is to ignore mindset. In fact I've been mentioning training all along. All things being equal, seems a vast majority here in the states teach C&L'ed due to circumstances that are prevalent to SD HERE.

Now seemingly the IDF/c3 carry is your only crutch here, I must ask again.... what if you need to use your other arm? Just considering the obvious need of use if you are inside your own home or outside of it.

Who are you (Or I) to determine what somebody else needs to do? Isn't that a little like a politician dictating what guns that we need or don't need?


Politicians and gun control? You're pulling no fallacy stops here eh? Either way, I'm not dictating anything. I'm merely saying that it's a fact that some methods are more effecient than others. Don't like it? Dunno what to tell you, as you are MORE than welcome to disagree. I will go with what the real world shows, instead of the moot mental mazturbation of "choices."

Many thousands of people have bought handguns for that purpose over the years...and have even used them successfully despite having never fired their guns before the moment of truth. An old man my father knew bought a Model 10 in the early 60s...fired it 6 times, loaded it with 158-grain LRN...and put it in his nightstand. In or around 1990, he had a break-in. He shot both of them down.

Don't doubt it. I'd much rather have a revolver ready to go, than fumble with cocking the hammer, or slide during a break in. YMMV.

Drjones
06-23-2012, 10:38
It's weird. Anytime this friend see's my 1911, he becomes weirded-out by my cocked and locked 1911. I've explained the design, the safeties, etc., numerous times.

He's been wanting a 1911, but even more so, he's wanting a Sig P938 (nearly same manual of arms, minus grip safety). He has two Glock's and a Taurus .38Spc, so 1911's are a different design to him.

He's afraid that the hammer will fall inadvertently, from what I gather. Says he'd feel more comfortable chambering a round, and then lowering the hammer (on that live round) for carry... Ugh.

Is this an old revolver mind-set? What's so scary about cocked and locked?


Jmho, but anyone who is in any way "afraid" of guns in such a manner is not ready to own any guns, let alone carry them.

And so he's scared of a cocked & locked 1911, yet wants to own one? Wtf?

His irrational fear WILL lead to a negligent discharge if he does what he describes; lowering the hammer on a live round. His finger will slip either when lowering or cocking it, and the gun will discharge. He needs to spend more time around guns, under adult supervision, until he's no longer "scared" of them, or else he'll do something stupid that will hurt himself or someone else. Like lowering the hammer of a 1911 on a live round.

I shudder to think what other dumb and unsafe things he does with the guns he currently owns.

Drjones
06-23-2012, 10:55
I Thought the half-cock notch was some sort of secondary safety mechanism to guard agains sear slip/failure. I've never heard that it was intended to be used as a carry mode, as some here have said. Am I incorrect?:dunno:

1911Tuner
06-24-2012, 00:04
I Thought the half-cock notch was some sort of secondary safety mechanism to guard agains sear slip/failure. I've never heard that it was intended to be used as a carry mode, as some here have said. Am I incorrect?:dunno:

In its original captive version, the half-cock was and is a safety...as described by Browning in the March 1910 patents before the addition of the manual, slide-locking safety...or as we've come to call it...the thumb safety.

Like all other Browning exposed hammer designs, when the sear is in the half-cock notch, the hammer and sear are interlocked. This can be observed in the Winchester Models '92 and '94 rifles, and the Model '97 shotgun. If you've ever handled one of these, you've probably noticed that the shape of the hammer spurs encourage elevating the muzzles to comfortably lower the hammers to the half-cock. With Browning, nothing is incidental or left to chance. Everything is purpose-designed.

Pulling the trigger can't release the hammer, and the whole fire control group is effectively locked and disabled. If that doesn't meet the criteria for a safety, I'd like to know what does.

It's also a fail-safe in the unlikely event that both hammer hooks shear and release the hammer. Browning had a talent for designing a single part to perform multiple functions. The half-cock notch is an example.