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Animal Mother
06-19-2012, 21:03
Missouri will, on August 2, vote on a proposed Constitutional Amendment to their state constitution. The stated purpose of the amendment is protect the "right to pray". Seems redundant given the First Amendment to the US Constitution, but there are other issues with this bit of silliness. Near the end of the text, we find this bit: " ...that students may express their beliefs about religion in written and oral assignments free from discrimination based on the religious content of their work; that no student shall be compelled to perform or participate in academic assignments or educational presentations that violate his or her religious beliefs" (http://house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills111/billpdf/perf/HJR0002P.PDF)

Anyone care to lay a wager on how long after enactment the first student will sue because they're asked to do a biology assignment? Perhaps we'll get lucky and the first suit will be over a classroom model of the solar system with the Sun at the middle, if only for the sake of variety.

Guss
06-20-2012, 12:04
So do they get out of Civics class if they believe in Theocracy?

Brucev
06-20-2012, 13:27
Opting out... what's the problem?

Gunhaver
06-20-2012, 15:15
Opting out... what's the problem?


No problem at all if they don't mind taking the hit to their grade. But most wouldn't stand for that. They'll want to pass biology while refusing to acknowledge evolution (which is a huge part of biology which is why they teach it) or want to pass any other class where there's some perceived conflict with their religion.

Do I still get to pass math if I firmly believe that 2+2=5 or American history if I refuse to acknowledge that the North won the civil war? We have curriculum for a reason.

Woofie
06-20-2012, 15:47
Is the bill implying that Missouri public school students are already required to complete assignments of a religious nature?

packsaddle
06-20-2012, 16:06
so what.

it's a state issue.

if you don't live there it's none of your business.

if you do live there and don't like it, move away.

pretty easy to understand, for most folks.

hogfish
06-20-2012, 17:33
I've been thinking about this, and the 'opting out' option might be the right thing to do. Let it not affect their grades or anything. The higher education schools (or other lower level schools, in case of a transfer of credits) can determine whether they're accepted, and their future employment will have to be one that doesn't require whatever they opted out of.

What do you think? :dunno:

eracer
06-20-2012, 17:40
1. I don't believe the United States Constitution prohibits states from allowing prayer.
2. If Missouri wants to allow prayer, they need to allow all faiths (even Satanism) to practice their own.

steveksux
06-20-2012, 17:51
so what.

it's a state issue.

if you don't live there it's none of your business.

if you do live there and don't like it, move away.

pretty easy to understand, for most folks.

Great, another proponent of Sharia law.

Randy

Kingarthurhk
06-20-2012, 18:06
Missouri will, on August 2, vote on a proposed Constitutional Amendment to their state constitution. The stated purpose of the amendment is protect the "right to pray". Seems redundant given the First Amendment to the US Constitution, but there are other issues with this bit of silliness. Near the end of the text, we find this bit: " ...that students may express their beliefs about religion in written and oral assignments free from discrimination based on the religious content of their work; that no student shall be compelled to perform or participate in academic assignments or educational presentations that violate his or her religious beliefs" (http://house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills111/billpdf/perf/HJR0002P.PDF)

Anyone care to lay a wager on how long after enactment the first student will sue because they're asked to do a biology assignment? Perhaps we'll get lucky and the first suit will be over a classroom model of the solar system with the Sun at the middle, if only for the sake of variety.

Given your disdain for the First Amendment, people have to go to certain lengths to defend freedom against your mindset. So, they have to be clearer about the freedoms you wish to trample upon.

If you were a an out and out liberal, you probably would be in an anti-gun forum despising the Second Amendment as well.

So, why do other people being able to excercise their freedom, excorcise you so much?

Gunhaver
06-20-2012, 18:09
I've been thinking about this, and the 'opting out' option might be the right thing to do. Let it not affect their grades or anything. The higher education schools (or other lower level schools, in case of a transfer of credits) can determine whether they're accepted, and their future employment will have to be one that doesn't require whatever they opted out of.

What do you think? :dunno:

I'm fine with that so long as it goes on their record and colleges know that those individuals think science is a matter of opinion. Might help thin out all these doctors and pharmacists that think their patient's and customer's health care is subject to their opinion.

You want to argue about the curriculum then fine. You can graduate and flip burgers.

Kingarthurhk
06-20-2012, 18:11
I'm fine with that so long as it goes on their record and colleges know that those individuals think science is a matter of opinion. Might help thin out all these doctors and pharmacists that think their patient's and customer's health care is subject to their opinion.

You want to argue about the curriculum then fine. You can graduate and flip burgers.

It is no wonder Doc finds you guys to be religious zealots. If I were an agnostic, I would think the same thing.

Gunhaver
06-20-2012, 18:20
Given your disdain for the First Amendment, people have to go to certain lengths to defend freedom against your mindset. So, they have to be clearer about the freedoms you wish to trample upon.

If you were a an out and out liberal, you probably would be in an anti-gun forum despising the Second Amendment as well.

So, why do other people being able to excercise their freedom, excorcise you so much?

How would one go about enforcing such a ridiculous law or even determine when it did or didn't apply? If I wanted to answer every single question on a science exam with, "God did it" or every question on a history exam with, "It was the will of Allah" then should I still pass because I'm exercising my first amendment rights or had I better show that I absorbed the material that was gone over in class?

"...that students may express their beliefs about religion in written and oral assignments free from discrimination based on the religious content of their work; that no student shall be compelled to perform or participate in academic assignments or educational presentations that violate his or her religious beliefs"

I'd really like you to show me an example of how this was ever even a problem.

hogfish
06-20-2012, 19:03
I'm fine with that so long as it goes on their record and colleges know that those individuals think science is a matter of opinion. Might help thin out all these doctors and pharmacists that think their patient's and customer's health care is subject to their opinion.

You want to argue about the curriculum then fine. You can graduate and flip burgers.


It would have to be on record, of course, for the continued education, etc.

Kingarthurhk
06-20-2012, 19:15
How would one go about enforcing such a ridiculous law or even determine when it did or didn't apply? If I wanted to answer every single question on a science exam with, "God did it" or every question on a history exam with, "It was the will of Allah" then should I still pass because I'm exercising my first amendment rights or had I better show that I absorbed the material that was gone over in class?

"...that students may express their beliefs about religion in written and oral assignments free from discrimination based on the religious content of their work; that no student shall be compelled to perform or participate in academic assignments or educational presentations that violate his or her religious beliefs"

I'd really like you to show me an example of how this was ever even a problem.

It is so simple. The answer given to me by my Atheist science teacher is as follows. However, as a Theist, I believe in the literal creation by God in 6 actual days.

Not hard at all. Everyone is happy.

janice6
06-20-2012, 19:24
Great, another proponent of Sharia law.

Randy



More like a reaction to it.

Gunhaver
06-20-2012, 19:38
It is so simple. The answer given to me by my Atheist science teacher is as follows. However, as a Theist, I believe in the literal creation by God in 6 actual days.

Not hard at all. Everyone is happy.

Either you didn't grasp the point of my question or you chose to gloss right over them.

Kingarthurhk
06-20-2012, 19:46
Either you didn't grasp the point of my question or you chose to gloss right over them.

You apparently don't like simple solutions that let everyone enjoy their First Amendment freedoms. Sad really.

Animal Mother
06-20-2012, 20:27
so what.

it's a state issue. Despite some legislators desires, Missouri is still part of the United States.
if you don't live there it's none of your business.

if you do live there and don't like it, move away.

pretty easy to understand, for most folks.
And when those illeducated children graduate believing mythology instead of scientific facts, will their damage be contained to Missouri?

Animal Mother
06-20-2012, 20:31
I've been thinking about this, and the 'opting out' option might be the right thing to do. Let it not affect their grades or anything. The higher education schools (or other lower level schools, in case of a transfer of credits) can determine whether they're accepted, and their future employment will have to be one that doesn't require whatever they opted out of.

What do you think? :dunno:That would require noting in the student's transcript something along the lines of "Billy got an A in biology, although he refused to do any assignment regarding scientific facts like evolution and cosmology" which would, in itself, probably be considered, "discrimination based on the content of their work" by those advocating the YEC position.

The fear, even more than their effect on the national conversation about the sciences, is that these students would be admitted to colleges based on incorrect grades and would then fail due to being completely unprepared for things like actual science classes.

Animal Mother
06-20-2012, 20:35
Given your disdain for the First Amendment, people have to go to certain lengths to defend freedom against your mindset. Given your habit of assigning me positions I do not in fact hold so that you can attack the strawman, please demonstrate my supposed disdain for the First Amendment with actual evidence.
So, they have to be clearer about the freedoms you wish to trample upon. No freedoms are trampled upon by requiring students to actually demonstrate mastery of the topic being taught in order to receive a passing grade.
If you were a an out and out liberal, you probably would be in an anti-gun forum despising the Second Amendment as well.

So, why do other people being able to excercise their freedom, excorcise you so much? They can exercise their freedom as much as they like, but if that exercise involves refusing to complete academic assignments, they should also accept the consequences of that refusal not seek legislated permission to remain ignorant.

High-Gear
06-21-2012, 02:15
My issue with it is allowing children to prostelitize via their assignments. A classroom presentation could now become a Westboro Baptist type child spewing hate in the classroom demanding equal time. Imagine the following.

"The reason for the civil war was because god saw that America was full of sin. Abraham Lincoln was a Fag loving atheist, so he set american against american to kill each other..."

"Hurrican Katrina struk the gulf coast, flooding the city of New Orleans killing thousands. This was the act of a just and loving god, who smited the wicked people of this city because of Americans allowing abortion and homosexuality. In Lev. 22-3 it states..."

"In September of 2001, many Noble martyrs of Islam boarded commercial planes and struck a great blow against Satans Homeland! Thousands of wicked americans were killed because of the injustices they have perpetrated against Islam. Allah sent these men because American women are whores, and their men are Christian dogs..."

Should your child be forced to sit and listed to that? Isnt it best if we leave religion in church or the home, and keep education secular?

Woofie
06-21-2012, 06:06
You apparently don't like simple solutions that let everyone enjoy their First Amendment freedoms. Sad really.

Is avoiding school work a first amendment right?

I don't have a problem if kids want to opt out of science classes, but they should be required to replace that part of the curriculum with another sequence of classes.

We need good tradesmen. That is an option.

Brucev
06-21-2012, 07:08
No problem at all if they don't mind taking the hit to their grade. But most wouldn't stand for that. They'll want to pass biology while refusing to acknowledge evolution (which is a huge part of biology which is why they teach it) or want to pass any other class where there's some perceived conflict with their religion.

Do I still get to pass math if I firmly believe that 2+2=5 or American history if I refuse to acknowledge that the North won the civil war? We have curriculum for a reason.

Silly red herrings about math and history aside, your beef is that they refuse to acknowledge evolution exclusively?

In instances of conflict, perceived or otherwise, are only those who act out of religious conviction to be expected to yield out of hand? Why?

High-Gear
06-21-2012, 07:40
In instances of conflict, perceived or otherwise, are only those who act out of religious conviction to be expected to yield out of hand? Why?

That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

Why does a bronze age myth garner respect? Just because people's feelings get hurt, and they demand it?

If a mormon student told his tale of creation, he would say the black students in his class were cursed because his forefathers did not fight for Jesus on the planet kolob. No place for that in a classroom.

muscogee
06-21-2012, 08:36
My issue with it is allowing children to prostelitize via their assignments. A classroom presentation could now become a Westboro Baptist type child spewing hate in the classroom demanding equal time. Imagine the following.

"The reason for the civil war was because god saw that America was full of sin. Abraham Lincoln was a Fag loving atheist, so he set american against american to kill each other..."

"Hurrican Katrina struk the gulf coast, flooding the city of New Orleans killing thousands. This was the act of a just and loving god, who smited the wicked people of this city because of Americans allowing abortion and homosexuality. In Lev. 22-3 it states..."

"In September of 2001, many Noble martyrs of Islam boarded commercial planes and struck a great blow against Satans Homeland! Thousands of wicked americans were killed because of the injustices they have perpetrated against Islam. Allah sent these men because American women are whores, and their men are Christian dogs..."

Should your child be forced to sit and listed to that? Isnt it best if we leave religion in church or the home, and keep education secular?

IMO, that's exactly where this legislation will go. The reasoning for many students will be, "I'm right because God says so". If they don't get an A for writing that, they will claim discrimination and sue. One only has to look at the level of discourse in this forum by those defending this legislation to know that. The same people who complain about the dumbing down of education in America want to throw logic out of the classroom and claim that, "God said so" is logic enough. Of course, the instructior won't be able to say that God is ambiguous and contradicts himself so He's not a reliable source. If students and their parents want a make believe education, they should find a private school that agrees with them. They won't learn much, but they can pretend they have an education. They won't fool anyone but themselves and they won't hurt anyone but themselves.

Animal Mother
06-21-2012, 08:49
Silly red herrings about math and history aside, your beef is that they refuse to acknowledge evolution exclusively?

In instances of conflict, perceived or otherwise, are only those who act out of religious conviction to be expected to yield out of hand? Why? No, those who advocate positions which not only have no evidence to support them but actually contradict the available evidence should be expected to "yield". Creationism should join homeopathy and crystal healing in this regard.

Gunhaver
06-21-2012, 10:36
IMO, that's exactly where this legislation will go. The reasoning for many students will be, "I'm right because God says so". If they don't get an A for writing that, they will claim discrimination and sue. One only has to look at the level of discourse in this forum by those defending this legislation to know that. The same people who complain about the dumbing down of education in America want to throw logic out of the classroom and claim that, "God said so" is logic enough. Of course, the instructior won't be able to say that God is ambiguous and contradicts himself so He's not a reliable source. If students and their parents want a make believe education, they should find a private school that agrees with them. They won't learn much, but they can pretend they have an education. They won't fool anyone but themselves and they won't hurt anyone but themselves.

Yeah, I find it amusing that the first ones to scream about the education bar being lowered by "liberals" to make kids feel better about themselves will be the first to support that tactic when it's got a religious motivation behind it.

Gunhaver
06-21-2012, 10:50
It is no wonder Doc finds you guys to be religious zealots. If I were an agnostic, I would think the same thing.

Doc isn't agnostic.

Gunhaver
06-21-2012, 10:59
Silly red herrings about math and history aside, your beef is that they refuse to acknowledge evolution exclusively?

In instances of conflict, perceived or otherwise, are only those who act out of religious conviction to be expected to yield out of hand? Why?

Red herring? You might want to look up the meaning of that phrase. It means a distraction from issues you don't want to address. I'm all over this issue and have no problem sticking to the crux of the matter which is the idea that students can get away with not having to follow the same curriculum as everyone else and not have it count against them if they claim that it violates some religious belief. That's BS.

What they should be doing if they're bound and determined to ignore evidence is paying attention in class and giving the answers that they know the teachers and exams are looking for. Evolution or otherwise your acceptance of the facts have no bearing on the validity of those facts. If you want a special class for your beliefs then go to a private school that teaches that.

nmk
06-21-2012, 11:26
Doc isn't agnostic.

No kidding. He reminds me of this:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/atheists.png

He's subtle, but not unbiased.

Bren
06-21-2012, 11:42
Another case of politicians using religion for personal gain (votes) and the people who should be most outraged about it (christians) will jump right on the bandwagon.

I have an old church tract from before the civil war, called something like "oil and water" that is about how religion should never be mixed with government and how it's wrong to do so. Somehow, in the last century, possibly as a result of the cold war, the religious reversed that opinion - mix religion with government, money, etc., anything goes.

hogfish
06-21-2012, 15:50
That would require noting in the student's transcript something along the lines of "Billy got an A in biology, although he refused to do any assignment regarding scientific facts like evolution and cosmology" which would, in itself, probably be considered, "discrimination based on the content of their work" by those advocating the YEC position.

The fear, even more than their effect on the national conversation about the sciences, is that these students would be admitted to colleges based on incorrect grades and would then fail due to being completely unprepared for things like actual science classes.

Opting out of the class, not a chapter/section. Transcripts would show absence of whatever class the student opted out of.

Kingarthurhk
06-21-2012, 16:05
Another case of politicians using religion for personal gain (votes) and the people who should be most outraged about it (christians) will jump right on the bandwagon.

True, the NEA tends to be very politcal.


I have an old church tract from before the civil war, called something like "oil and water" that is about how religion should never be mixed with government and how it's wrong to do so. Somehow, in the last century, possibly as a result of the cold war, the religious reversed that opinion - mix religion with government, money, etc., anything goes.

Yes, so please stop doing that, and allow others their religious libery.

Kingarthurhk
06-21-2012, 16:08
Doc isn't agnostic.

He defines himself as agnostic. So, now you're hatred of all religious people extend to the confused as well? :upeyes:

Animal Mother
06-21-2012, 21:49
Opting out of the class, not a chapter/section. Transcripts would show absence of whatever class the student opted out of.For most colleges, opting out of physics and biology would keep a student out. ASU, for example, requires 3 years of high school science.

steveksux
06-21-2012, 23:02
More like a reaction to it.
No. He's definitely an advocate of Sharia. As long as its his religious tenets enforced by law, its all good.

Randy

hogfish
06-22-2012, 04:40
For most colleges, opting out of physics and biology would keep a student out. ASU, for example, requires 3 years of high school science.

That's what I've been trying to get across. My point is that ASU doesn't have to accept such a student. Where is the problem with that?

Animal Mother
06-22-2012, 04:43
That's what I've been trying to get across. My point is that ASU doesn't have to accept such a student. Where is the problem with that?I don't have one, I'd certainly rather not have to deal with a creationist trained "science" student, but I suspect that in Missouri, this amendment would be cited to prevent students from being excluded simply because they know nothing about science.

hogfish
06-22-2012, 05:33
I don't have one, I'd certainly rather not have to deal with a creationist trained "science" student, but I suspect that in Missouri, this amendment would be cited to prevent students from being excluded simply because they know nothing about science.

I figured we agreed on this. :) If everyone else did, the problem would be solved. Noone could complain about being forced into anything (concerning this particular theme).

void *
06-22-2012, 10:17
Yes, so please stop doing that, and allow others their religious libery.

There used to be a guy who posted in here who would claim that the energy/light from the sun could not be from fusion because there is some iron in the sun.

He claimed this because his particular literal interpretation of the bible required him to not only reject evolution, etc, but basic physics.

Now, say we have a question in a physics textbook about how the sun produces it's energy, and the expected answer is something along the lines of "Primarily by hydrogen undergoing fusion and producing helium".

Say we have a student, who has religious beliefs that require him to reject that. He enters an answer of, say, "Because God wills it to be so".

How is marking his answer incorrect denying him religious liberty, when the reason for the answer being marked incorrect is because it is incorrect, not because the student expressed a religious belief?

Woofie
06-22-2012, 13:36
There used to be a guy who posted in here who would claim that the energy/light from the sun could not be from fusion because there is some iron in the sun.

He claimed this because his particular literal interpretation of the bible required him to not only reject evolution, etc, but basic physics.

Now, say we have a question in a physics textbook about how the sun produces it's energy, and the expected answer is something along the lines of "Primarily by hydrogen undergoing fusion and producing helium".

Say we have a student, who has religious beliefs that require him to reject that. He enters an answer of, say, "Because God wills it to be so".

How is marking his answer incorrect denying him religious liberty, when the reason for the answer being marked incorrect is because it is incorrect, not because the student expressed a religious belief?

Fusion is the process of God bringing together a male and female hydrogen atom in order to produce two conjoined twin hydrogen atoms.

Kingarthurhk
06-22-2012, 15:19
There used to be a guy who posted in here who would claim that the energy/light from the sun could not be from fusion because there is some iron in the sun.

He claimed this because his particular literal interpretation of the bible required him to not only reject evolution, etc, but basic physics.

Now, say we have a question in a physics textbook about how the sun produces it's energy, and the expected answer is something along the lines of "Primarily by hydrogen undergoing fusion and producing helium".

Say we have a student, who has religious beliefs that require him to reject that. He enters an answer of, say, "Because God wills it to be so".

How is marking his answer incorrect denying him religious liberty, when the reason for the answer being marked incorrect is because it is incorrect, not because the student expressed a religious belief?

And science contintually finds out it is wrong and constantly has to readjust. Can you says the science of Madam Curie is the same as it is today? No, you can't.

Moreover, I think you are being purposefully obstuse and demanding your way as the the only way.

As I said, very simply. My teacher and text book says the following, I believe the opposite because of x y and z. The student has given your text book Atheist religio answer that you demand, and he has also provided a counter point to your religious viewpoint. Your religious viewpoint is not the only viewpoint.

Lone Wolf8634
06-22-2012, 15:53
And science contintually finds out it is wrong and constantly has to readjust. Can you says the science of Madam Curie is the same as it is today? No, you can't.

Moreover, I think you are being purposefully obstuse and demanding your way as the the only way.

As I said, very simply. My teacher and text book says the following, I believe the opposite because of x y and z. The student has given your text book Atheist religio answer that you demand, and he has also provided a counter point to your religious viewpoint. Your religious viewpoint is not the only viewpoint.

The student is there to learn what they are being taught. The question doesn't require them to state their beliefs. If the science textbook had delved into the supernatural than it would be appropriate to bring that into the discussion.

Imagine if a child were precocious enough to question the proposition of a universe being created in 6 days and using science to justify the their claims, only they did it in Sunday school.

I bet said child would quickly be set straight on when and where it's appropriate to spout off.

It's your problem to teach your children how to reconcile their faith with science, or the rest of the world for that matter. It certainly isn't the schools or the teachers problem.

Lone Wolf8634
06-22-2012, 15:56
And science contintually finds out it is wrong and constantly has to readjust. Can you says the science of Madam Curie is the same as it is today? No, you can't.



At least science has the ability discard wrongheaded ideas, figure out where it went wrong and adjust its thinking to account for evidence.

Unlike other methodologies I could think of.

void *
06-22-2012, 16:30
Moreover, I think you are being purposefully obstuse and demanding your way as the the only way.

The fusion of the sun is well established science. I think you are accusing me of being purposefully obtuse because you want to believe I am being purposefully obtuse.

So let's start smaller. Do you agree that the world is round?

If so, do you think that a student who actually believes that the world is flat, because their faith interpreted particular bible verses to mean that the world is flat, is being discriminated against if a quiz asks the shape of the earth, they write "flat, because the Bible says so", and the teacher marks the answer as incorrect?

That is the worry that atheists in this thread have with this bill. The problem is not that it says 'students can express their religious beliefs'. The problem is not that students can opt out of participating in coursework, if they take no grade on that coursework.

The problem is that it potentially opens the door to any student being able to say 'My religious belief says that what I am being taught is wrong, and grading my answers as incorrect is discrimination against my religious beliefs, therefore, you must treat me as having passed this biology/physics/whatever course as though I actually passed it, even though I have really opted out'.

I have no problem with people opting out of taking a biology course, or a math course, or a physics course, or whatever. If this turns out to be used to allow people to get a passing grade for a course that they have effectively opted out of, I have a *huge* problem with that.

If you take the class, you should be graded by the criteria that every other student is graded on.

Kingarthurhk
06-22-2012, 19:06
The student is there to learn what they are being taught. The question doesn't require them to state their beliefs. If the science textbook had delved into the supernatural than it would be appropriate to bring that into the discussion.

Imagine if a child were precocious enough to question the proposition of a universe being created in 6 days and using science to justify the their claims, only they did it in Sunday school.

I think that would be a good thing. I am very happy when my son asks me honest questions and wants a straight forward answer. If he did not ask questions, I would actually worry about his cognitive ability and the fact that he is not internalizing infomration and considering it honestly. Also, for us it would Sabbath School.:supergrin: But, any time my son asks me an honest question, I do my best to give him an honest answer.

For instance, I never taught my son about Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. I learn something from everyone I encounter, and frankly, I find everyone has something to teach.

I took to heart the Anti-Theist billboard years ago that said, "Your parents told you that Santa Claus, the Tooth Faith, and the Easter Bunny were true. Now, they want to tell you about Jesus."

So, my children were never told Santa Claus was was real, or the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy.

My son took a sense of deep pride that his parents were willing to be honest with him, and he was also indignant about the mass conspiracy of other parents to tell their children these things.


I bet said child would quickly be set straight on when and where it's appropriate to spout off.

He does. And unless he is being disrespectful, I encourage it. I remember growing up and getting answers, such as "because". Because never worked for me. He is stubborn like me with an active mind. I don't expect him to accept "because" or what anyone says at face value.

The same thing that you are saying he should accept from folks of your mindset in the public school system; which, is because we said so and believe this, so shut up and don't dispute us. Ironic, considering I am the "backwards" Theist. :upeyes:


It's your problem to teach your children how to reconcile their faith with science, or the rest of the world for that matter. It certainly isn't the schools or the teachers problem.

It is my problem when the schools become a place of indoctrination to an Atheist agenda rather than an actual place of learning.

Animal Mother
06-22-2012, 20:39
It is my problem when the schools become a place of indoctrination to an Atheist agenda rather than an actual place of learning.How is teaching science, as opposed to religious mythology an indoctrination of any sort?

BTW, since we're back on this thread, could you quote the post where someone said, you should fail, and be castigated and harmed financially all of your life for not conforming to the Atheist agenda.

Thanks.

Kingarthurhk
06-23-2012, 06:17
How is teaching science, as opposed to religious mythology an indoctrination of any sort?

BTW, since we're back on this thread, could you quote the post where someone said,

Thanks.

Not really hard considering that was the bulk of the thread, which is why I provided the link. Dance to your own game. I provided the material, it is up to you do something with it.

Animal Mother
06-23-2012, 07:01
Not really hard considering that was the bulk of the thread, which is why I provided the link. Dance to your own game. I provided the material, it is up to you do something with it. If that were the case, you'd think it would be a snap to quote a specific post. Odd how you constantly fail to produce evidence to support your positions, isn't it?

Regardless, since you have done so yet again, I'll ask our assembled brethren: Does anyone else see a post in this thread saying that you should fail, and be castigated and harmed financially all of your life for not conforming to the Atheist agenda.

?

I'd hate to thing Kingarthurhk was bearing false witness.

Kingarthurhk
06-23-2012, 07:32
If that were the case, you'd think it would be a snap to quote a specific post. Odd how you constantly fail to produce evidence to support your positions, isn't it?

Regardless, since you have done so yet again, I'll ask our assembled brethren: Does anyone else see a post in this thread saying that

?

I'd hate to thing Kingarthurhk was bearing false witness.

Last edited by Woofie; 06-21-2012 at 07:13..

Cover ups are neat, aren't they?

Animal Mother
06-23-2012, 07:55
Last edited by Woofie; 06-21-2012 at 07:13..

Cover ups are neat, aren't they? You're claiming Woofie wrote that "you should fail, and be castigated and harmed financially all of your life for not conforming to the Atheist agenda." and then edited it to change his post's content 2 days ago?

If that's the case, and his was the only post of this nature, why did you repeat the claim both yesterday and this morning?

Woofie
06-23-2012, 08:10
When did I write anything like that?

John Rambo
06-23-2012, 08:15
Yeah, uh, the 1st amendment to the COTUS pretty much covers this. At least, every part of this which doesn't aim to be absolutely moronic.

Woofie
06-23-2012, 08:17
This is the post Kingarthur is referring to.

Is avoiding school work a first amendment right?

I don't have a problem if kids want to opt out of science classes, but they should be required to replace that part of the curriculum with another sequence of classes.

We need good tradesmen. That is an option.

The complete edit history shows

Is avoiding school work a first amendment right?

as the original version. Then

I don't have a problem if kids want to opt out of science classes, but they should be required to replace that part of the curriculum with another sequence of classes.

We need good tradesmen. That is an option.

added in the only edit, which is still the current post. I feel I've been falsely accused of something.

Animal Mother
06-23-2012, 08:32
This is the post Kingarthur is referring to.



The complete edit history shows



as the original version. Then



added in the only edit, which is still the current post. I feel I've been falsely accused of something.
I'm sure the good King will clear everything up as soon as he has the chance. It must have been another post that said, "you should fail, and be castigated and harmed financially all of your life for not conforming to the Atheist agenda."

Undoubtedly he'll remind us which one and apologize for unfairly pointing the finger at you.

hogfish
06-23-2012, 08:45
This is the post Kingarthur is referring to.



The complete edit history shows



as the original version. Then



added in the only edit, which is still the current post. I feel I've been falsely accused of something.

That added edit makes it the perfect set-up. I don't understand why anyone would see anything wrong with it.

:thumbsup:

Woofie
06-23-2012, 09:01
I think it was an honest mistake, and maybe I had the only edited post in the thread to that point.

It happens.

fowl intent
06-23-2012, 09:16
The whole idea of a student "opting out" because of religious beliefs is scary business, as has been discussed already. The kids potentially affected by this are simply pawns being used by "creationists/intelligent designers" to advance their efforts to dumb down the public school curriculum.

I have worked with young kids for most of my adult life, either coaching sports, or as a leader of our church youth group. (I no longer do the latter, for obvious reasons). In my experience, when asked for their opinion on an issue, particularly on issues of religion or politics, children will usually regurgitate the opinions they have heard from their parents. Case in point was a cute 9 year old girl who told my 9 year old daughter a number of years ago that John Kerry was a baby killer, and was going to hell, as well as anyone who voted for him. How sweet! You would have to know the child's parents to truly understand how sad this situation was.

Who can argue with the premise that children of all religions, and wherever situate, are indoctrinated by their parents on the topic of religion. It's only natural. That is what Church, and Sunday School is all about. Get them while they are young, and unable to question, and most likely you have them for life. Make them think at an early age that it is wrong to question what they have been taught, and that in doing so you risk eternal damnation. Brilliant strategy actually, and it has worked as designed for millennia.

If you want to see an extreme example of the damage done to young children in the name of indoctrination, go to Youtube and look at the documentary on the Westboro Baptist Church, and Fred Phelps. You will see 5 and 6 year old kids talking about killing fags, and how they are abominations, and all going to hell. These kids are too young to even know or understand homosexuality, much less to be using words such as "abomination". They have been taught and drilled by their "loving" parents to express hatred and disgust, not only towards gays, but towards the United States of America.

In my opinion, these organized efforts to change the science curriculum are based not on religious beliefs so much, but on fear. Fear that the years spent teaching/indoctrinating young children could be wasted, if the children are exposed to scientific concepts and ideas that might cause them to question their religious training. When the religious perceive that their children are being taught about topics that might cause their children to question religious beliefs, then it's time to change the curriculum. Never mind that the topics being taught are pretty much universally accepted by those educated in those fields. The chosen tactic is to try to get their religious beliefs taught side by side with accepted science. Why not dumb down all the kids, and not just their own. These efforts have been going on for decades, first under the guise of "creationism", then "intelligent design".

We can only hope that our Court system will continue to protect and advance the idea of educating our youth, and will continue to recognize and defeat the efforts of the "creationists" to dumb down our public school curriculum.

steveksux
06-23-2012, 09:42
If they don't want to hear about evolution in science class, they should be able to opt out.

That's what parochial schools are for. Go opt into one of those. Its perfect for people looking for affirmation rather than information.

If they want to opt out of mathematics because they believe in numerology, or opt out of chemistry class because they believe in alchemy, their options my be more limited. You might have to home school them in that case. Hopefully you got good grades in alchemy and numerology so you do a proper job of educating your children.

Clearly they don't belong in public schools or any schools where fact based learning takes place.

When the public schools start a superstitions curricula, then that's a great place to present your very own creation myths. but you'd still be way better off in a parochial school. The public schools would have to cover everyone else's creation myths too, would be much more efficient to choose a parochial school well versed in your particular flavor of superstition.

But it should be pretty obvious that superstition is clearly not appropriate to science classes any more than atheists butting into catechism classes to disparage creationist dogma. They're not there to learn, they're there to disrupt. Take your disruptive ass out of there and stop wasting the time of students who are there to learn.

Randy

Kingarthurhk
06-23-2012, 12:43
You're claiming Woofie wrote that "you should fail, and be castigated and harmed financially all of your life for not conforming to the Atheist agenda." and then edited it to change his post's content 2 days ago?

If that's the case, and his was the only post of this nature, why did you repeat the claim both yesterday and this morning?

Now, who is bearing false witness? Not suprising, anything to keep the image up.

void *
06-23-2012, 16:05
It would be nice if more than mods and the user editing could get a link to the edit history.

Although, I suppose as a user you could screenshot it.

Woofie
06-23-2012, 16:56
I have no reason to lie.

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg67/woofiethepirate/Screenshot-11.png

Kingarthurhk
06-23-2012, 17:46
I'm done with it. I know what I originally read. I have Animal knowing full well the posts that mentioned kids being penalized in higher academia and in their future jobs were purged through the editing process, and then accusing me of being a liar. I thought Atheists had at least some modicum of basic veracity, but I no longer accept that. I am done dancing to the tune and playing the game. I am just done.

Animal Mother
06-23-2012, 18:36
Now, who is bearing false witness? Not suprising, anything to keep the image up.
What did I write that was false?

Animal Mother
06-23-2012, 18:40
I'm done with it. I know what I originally read. But apparently not where or by whom.
I have Animal knowing full well the posts that mentioned kids being penalized in higher academia and in their future jobs were purged through the editing process, and then accusing me of being a liar. You have no such thing, you identified a post by Woofie as the one in question, which is clearly not the case. Perhaps you simply know things which aren't actually true, it does seem to be a common issue.
I thought Atheists had at least some modicum of basic veracity, but I no longer accept that. I am done dancing to the tune and playing the game. I am just done.Producing evidence to support your claimed position is a game now?

High-Gear
06-23-2012, 21:04
I'm done with it. I know what I originally read. I have Animal knowing full well the posts that mentioned kids being penalized in higher academia and in their future jobs were purged through the editing process, and then accusing me of being a liar. I thought Atheists had at least some modicum of basic veracity, but I no longer accept that. I am done dancing to the tune and playing the game. I am just done.

Maybe you were hearing voices again, you know god talks to you and all? Maybe you confused something you read with the voices in your head?

Animal Mother
06-23-2012, 21:26
If they don't want to hear about evolution in science class, they should be able to opt out.

That's what parochial schools are for. Go opt into one of those. Its perfect for people looking for affirmation rather than information. That's already going on, subsidized by public money, in Louisiana. My worry is that when these "students" graduate with no understanding of science it will fall to the public to support them.

Woofie
06-23-2012, 21:33
That's already going on, subsidized by public money, in Louisiana. My worry is that when these "students" graduate with no understanding of science it will fall to the public to support them.

I don't know the exact details, but we do hand out vouchers to pay for kids to go to private school. I've always been under the impression that it's to get them out of the ghetto schools if they show any promise.

Animal Mother
06-24-2012, 00:34
I don't know the exact details, but we do hand out vouchers to pay for kids to go to private school. I've always been under the impression that it's to get them out of the ghetto schools if they show any promise. Not knowing where you are, I can't comment on the local program, but in Louisiana one school applied for 315 vouchers, despite not having a library, facilities, or teachers. Their curriculum revolves around watching Biblically themed DVDs (http://www.thenewsstar.com/article/20120525/NEWS01/120525022/School-willing-take-315-students-through-vouchers-lacks-building-computers) according to the news.

Luckily, an Islamic school also had the audacity to apply, so the whole program may be scrapped. (http://www.necn.com/06/04/12/34B-school-funding-plan-gets-final-passa/landing_politics.html?&apID=c16282929d234e9fb66cbb7ae2165e6e)

muscogee
06-24-2012, 06:23
Maybe you were hearing voices again, you know god talks to you and all? Maybe you confused something you read with the voices in your head?

There were spaces between Donald and whatever he said.
Strangers had forced him to live in his head.

From Donald and Lydia by John Prine.

Woofie
06-24-2012, 13:10
Not knowing where you are, I can't comment on the local program, but in Louisiana one school applied for 315 vouchers, despite not having a library, facilities, or teachers. Their curriculum revolves around watching Biblically themed DVDs (http://www.thenewsstar.com/article/20120525/NEWS01/120525022/School-willing-take-315-students-through-vouchers-lacks-building-computers) according to the news.

Luckily, an Islamic school also had the audacity to apply, so the whole program may be scrapped. (http://www.necn.com/06/04/12/34B-school-funding-plan-gets-final-passa/landing_politics.html?&apID=c16282929d234e9fb66cbb7ae2165e6e)

I'm in Baton Rouge.

Edited. Going over the articles now.

Woofie
06-24-2012, 13:21
It looks like the NLW church is adding the primary school in order to take advantage of the program. Previously they only offered college level degrees related to preaching.

Corruption abounds in the voucher program. There's been a fight going on years about it. Business as usual in Louisiana politics.

void *
06-25-2012, 14:17
I'm done with it. I know what I originally read. I have Animal knowing full well the posts that mentioned kids being penalized in higher academia and in their future jobs were purged through the editing process, and then accusing me of being a liar. I thought Atheists had at least some modicum of basic veracity, but I no longer accept that. I am done dancing to the tune and playing the game. I am just done.

You were caught dead to rights accusing Woofie of a coverup that never happened*, and your response is to accuse others of lack of veracity? Noted.

*edit: should not be taken as denoting intent. I've no idea whether you did it intentionally or what.

nmk
06-26-2012, 12:39
I'm done with it. I know what I originally read. I have Animal knowing full well the posts that mentioned kids being penalized in higher academia and in their future jobs were purged through the editing process, and then accusing me of being a liar. I thought Atheists had at least some modicum of basic veracity, but I no longer accept that. I am done dancing to the tune and playing the game. I am just done.

You should apologize to Woofie, but I wont hold my breath.