Holder will lose Executive Privilege fight on F&F fight [Archive] - Glock Talk

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stormspotter
06-20-2012, 12:18
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/06/20/Holder-will-lose-exec-priv-claim

"...there are two types of executive privilege. One is a strong form rooted in the Constitution, called the presidential communication privilege. But there is another type, much weaker and rooted in common law instead of the Constitution, called the deliberative process privilege. That second, weaker variety is what President Obama invoked today regarding Holder".

Cavalry Doc
06-20-2012, 13:29
The documents will not be given as long as Barry is in office.

Two possibilities, they will be taken, or Romney's AG will hand them over.

Brucev
06-20-2012, 13:29
What the squatter did was try to protect himself and his administration from being held responsible for their own criminal conduct. That is all.

MoCop
06-21-2012, 09:26
Exactly!!
God I hope zero won't get another four years in office.

aircarver
06-21-2012, 09:31
Exactly!!
God I hope zero won't get another four years in office.

If he does, the coverup will go on at leisure .....

.

sbhaven
06-21-2012, 09:40
What ever the case the administration will have to cough up a list of documents they want covered shortly, if they don't than EP isn't valid on the requested documents.

The media is FINALLY starting to report on this. They didn't have much of a choice even after their intentionally ignoring it for the last couple of years. They are attempting to spin this as a republican witch hunt and Bush's fault. But the nagging doubt will be left in people's heads as to why Obama chose to use his first EP order to protect Holder who was being investigated after guns Obama's government intentionally gave to drug dealers turned up at the murder scene of a federal agent (and others).

FFR Spyder GT
06-21-2012, 11:55
Doubt it.

Besides that it's just a political witch hunt.

Don't we have more important things to worry about?

Goaltender66
06-21-2012, 12:08
Doubt it.

Besides that it's just a political witch hunt.

Don't we have more important things to worry about?

Despite your desire to whitewash this, it's actually not a witchhunt, nor is it an attempt to criminalize policy differences. After all, normal-thinking people don't believe the US Government should be supplying assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels. So if you think this is just a witch hunt, then you apparently are on board with the policy matter in question, no?

Oh...and providing guns to Mexican drug cartels is kind of a criminal matter, so there's that.

aircarver
06-21-2012, 12:38
Oh...and providing guns to Mexican drug cartels is kind of a criminal matter, so there's that.

What ? .... There's no immunity if

"you're from the government and you're trying to help" ? ... :shocked:

.

Goaltender66
06-21-2012, 12:45
http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad81/rdbrewer/Obama-Nixon.jpg

JFrame
06-21-2012, 12:48
http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad81/rdbrewer/Obama-Nixon.jpg


I'm gonna have to start circulating that photo of Nixbama... :supergrin:


.

Goaltender66
06-21-2012, 13:06
http://t.qkme.me/3pswd1.jpg

sbhaven
06-21-2012, 14:58
Doubt it.
Doubt what? Typical, say "doubt it", but don't expand on why you doubt what ever your refering to.
Besides that it's just a political witch hunt.
So I guess if we use your logic, that means that Valerie Plame House Oversight Committee hearing was also just a political witch hunt... Right?

That any investigation into the recent security leaks are simply a political witch hunt... Right?

Interesting how those on the left deem any scrutiny into the causes of, and deaths associated with, Fast and Furious to simply be a political witch hunt. :upeyes:
Don't we have more important things to worry about?
Like what? Bypassing Congress and legalizing more illegals? Giving bailouts to more cronies? Playing more golf? Hanging with more communists and socialists? Telling us more lies about one's past history? Doing another campaign speech? Telling insiders that he's doing gun control behind the scenes?

series1811
06-21-2012, 15:01
Doubt it.

Besides that it's just a political witch hunt.

Don't we have more important things to worry about?

Richard Nixon agrees with you.

Lethaltxn
06-21-2012, 15:53
Doubt it.

Besides that it's just a political witch hunt.

Don't we have more important things to worry about?
http://img.tapatalk.com/417c5e0a-97ef-fc68.jpg

engineer151515
06-21-2012, 15:56
Doubt it.

Besides that it's just a political witch hunt.

Don't we have more important things to worry about?

Yeah. Because supplying the weapons for death and destruction at our southern border isn't that important.

:upeyes:

engineer151515
06-21-2012, 15:56
Obama needs to ask Hillary where she put the damn paper shreader.

aircarver
06-21-2012, 16:03
Obama needs to ask Hillary where she put the damn paper shreader.

Took it with her...

Hell, she took everything else .......:upeyes:

.

G17Jake
06-21-2012, 16:45
Doubt it.

Besides that it's just a political witch hunt.

Don't we have more important things to worry about?

Aren't you suppose to play the race card too?

Flintlocker
06-21-2012, 16:51
Doubt it.

Besides that it's just a political witch hunt.

Don't we have more important things to worry about?

That's exactly what Republicans called it when Harriet Miers, Josh Bolton and Karl Rove refused to testify before Congress- a witch hunt. And the same thing that happened to those three will happen to Holder and the Administration- nothing.

countrygun
06-21-2012, 16:57
Doubt it.

Besides that it's just a political witch hunt.

Don't we have more important things to worry about?


Finding out who was responsible for the death of two American Law Enforcement officers just isn't worth it to you huh? suppose they had been Obama campaign workers?
Suppose they were members of your family?

How is it that the DOJ and FBI are fishing around the Zimmerman case, but the White House is covering up "F&F"
"Everybody deserves justice, but some people deserve more than others"?

Flintlocker
06-21-2012, 17:03
Finding out who was responsible for the death of two American Law Enforcement officers just isn't worth it to you huh? suppose they had been Obama campaign workers?
Suppose they were members of your family?

How is it that the DOJ and FBI are fishing around the Zimmerman case, but the White House is covering up "F&F"
"Everybody deserves justice, but some people deserve more than others"?

The persons responsible for the deaths of the agents are the people that pulled the trigger. You better watch out or you might end up contradicting decades worth of gun rights rhetoric.

And FYI, the documents that Holder is withholding pertain to internal discussions at the DOJ after the operation was ended. Issa already has all the details of F&F and now he's playing political games.

countrygun
06-21-2012, 17:15
The persons responsible for the deaths of the agents are the people that pulled the trigger. You better watch out or you might end up contradicting decades worth of gun rights rhetoric.


It has long been held that a person who provides weapons illegally to persons known to be criminals, can be held responsible for the consequences.

And FYI, the documents that Holder is withholding pertain to internal discussions at the DOJ after the operation was ended. Issa already has all the details of F&F and now he's playing political games.

It is nice to know that the US govt can provide weapons to countergovernment criminals in other Countries and not be held responsible. So Iran/Contra was cool with you and a Democratic fishing expedition.

BTW and FYI maybe they are trying to figure out how Holder told Congress on one day that he had just heard about F&F, and later claim he halted the program before he claimed to know about it.

Cavalry Doc
06-21-2012, 17:20
Nice too see the dem hacks pwned. Nothing more to add, yet.

Flintlocker
06-21-2012, 17:35
It is nice to know that the US govt can provide weapons to countergovernment criminals in other Countries and not be held responsible. So Iran/Contra was cool with you and a Democratic fishing expedition.

BTW and FYI maybe they are trying to figure out how Holder told Congress on one day that he had just heard about F&F, and later claim he halted the program before he claimed to know about it.

Since you appear to be in law enforcement then you'll likely be aware that it's a valid investigative technique to allow criminal conduct to occur in an effort to expose a criminal organization. Now I'm not defending F&F- I think it was stupidly conceived and executed- but it was a legal investigation. This is not the same thing as Iran Contra which was not a criminal investigation at all.

As to what Holder knew and when he knew it... is it going to bring the agents back to life? I imagine that the question matters like it did to Democrats that wanted to get the to the bottom of Bush administration claims of WMD's in Iraq... but that's not going to bring 5,000 servicemen back to life. And after the political kabuki has ended the questions will be relegated to the past.

JFrame
06-21-2012, 17:35
Nice too see the dem hacks pwned. Nothing more to add, yet.


There's a definite pattern -- does the D.U. issue its talking points on Thursday morning? http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/artists/just_cuz/JC_thinking.gif


.

sbhaven
06-21-2012, 17:40
If the Fast and Furious scandal investigation is just political then why did 31 U.S. House members, all of them Democrats (http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/ProjectGunrunnerLettertoPOTUS3June2011.pdf), write to President Obama, on June 3rd 2011, asking him to tell the DOJ to stop stonewalling the investigation?
We urge you to instruct the Department of Justice to promptly provide complete answers to all Congressional inquiries on this issue. These investigations should not be used as a platform for partisan criticism of the Administration; rather, they should be an opportunity to get to the bottom of this serious allegation of federal law enforcement misconduct. We believe it is essential for you to seize this opportunity, and we stand willing to provide the Administration our support in any way we can.
:dunno:

Cavalry Doc
06-21-2012, 17:41
There's a definite pattern -- does the D.U. issue its talking points on Thursday morning? http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/artists/just_cuz/JC_thinking.gif


.

Don't know about D.U., but I've seen marching orders given at the Paul sites. I don't even lurk at D.U.

JFrame
06-21-2012, 17:42
If the Fast and Furious scandal is just political then why did 31 U.S. House members, all of them Democrats (http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/ProjectGunrunnerLettertoPOTUS3June2011.pdf), write to President Obama asking him to tell the DOJ to stop stonewalling the investigation.

:dunno:


For one -- when they wrote that letter, they had no idea that Obama himself was somehow involved in the mess. :whistling:


.

Lethaltxn
06-21-2012, 17:59
Since you appear to be in law enforcement then you'll likely be aware that it's a valid investigative technique to allow criminal conduct to occur in an effort to expose a criminal organization. Now I'm not defending F&F- I think it was stupidly conceived and executed- but it was a legal investigation. This is not the same thing as Iran Contra which was not a criminal investigation at all.

As to what Holder knew and when he knew it... is it going to bring the agents back to life? I imagine that the question matters like it did to Democrats that wanted to get the to the bottom of Bush administration claims of WMD's in Iraq... but that's not going to bring 5,000 servicemen back to life. And after the political kabuki has ended the questions will be relegated to the past.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

samurairabbi
06-21-2012, 18:00
And the same thing that happened to those three will happen to Holder and the Administration- nothing.

Losing votes because of an issue may not be TRULY major, but it is more than nothing.

The F&F issue NOW has political legs. It can be reduced to:

Government does something weird by deciding to let 2700 weapons slip over the border so it can see what might happen. The experiment blows up on them. Congress asks "What happened?" The Executive Branch says "We don't want to talk about it." Congress supoenas some stuff. Executive Branch says "No". The magic word "Contempt" pops up. That puts the issue on a status that broadcasters can no longer subordinate as "incidental news"; the issue has now jumped off the internet and onto the TV screen. If it affects only ONE QUARTER of ONE percent of the November vote, well, that is still a bunch of votes in a close election.

countrygun
06-21-2012, 18:17
Since you appear to be in law enforcement then you'll likely be aware that it's a valid investigative technique to allow criminal conduct to occur in an effort to expose a criminal organization. Now I'm not defending F&F- I think it was stupidly conceived and executed- but it was a legal investigation. This is not the same thing as Iran Contra which was not a criminal investigation at all.

As to what Holder knew and when he knew it... is it going to bring the agents back to life? I imagine that the question matters like it did to Democrats that wanted to get the to the bottom of Bush administration claims of WMD's in Iraq... but that's not going to bring 5,000 servicemen back to life. And after the political kabuki has ended the questions will be relegated to the past.

Ghads do you play fast and loose with the truth.

First of all, he people attempting to straw purchase the guns were working for DOJ and they knew they were. they were acting as "agents" of the DOJ. So they weren't the criminals

The gunshops that reported the suspicious purchase requests were told by DOJ to "go ahead and sell the guns", so they were not criminals.

The purchasers smuggled them across the border, at which point DOJ had no authority at all, and sold them to the Mexican criminals. DOJ was not working in concert with the Mexican authorities so at that point the connection to the weapons were lost.

So, just exactly what criminal organization were they going to uncover? the DOJ itself?

Let's not forget the little matter of sending some 2,700 weapons into a foreign Country without benefit of Congressional approval, an act of war being declared, or the Cartels being declared some sort of US friendly counter-government soldiers. The US government had to go through more hoops to send guns to Great Britain prior to a declaration of war with Germany.

"As to what Holder knew and when he knew it... is it going to bring the agents back to life? "

That has to be one of the singlemost ridiculous things I have ever hear in a thread having anything to do with "Justice". You really actually said that? AMAZING.

No, I don't think you "get it", I don't think you are capable from that sentence,

Cavalry Doc
06-21-2012, 18:25
It's clear that Holder and probably his boss knew about this plan. They should be held responsible for the death's caused by their actions.

samurairabbi
06-21-2012, 18:39
Since you appear to be in law enforcement then you'll likely be aware that it's a valid investigative technique to allow criminal conduct to occur in an effort to expose a criminal organization. Now I'm not defending F&F- I think it was stupidly conceived and executed- but it was a legal investigation. This is not the same thing as Iran Contra which was not a criminal investigation at all.

Your statement of "valid investigative technique" is applicable, but it masks a POLITICAL reality.

The government can claim F&F was a statistical survey: get a known quantity of US civilian guns illegally into Mexico, see how many show up again within Mexico, compare it to the TOTAL number of illegal guns that show up in Mexico, and thus be able to estimate the TOTAL number of guns being imported surreptitiously into Mexico.

Political considerations will convert this statistical advocacy into politically explosive content. "Guns", "illegal", "DEA agent killed", "coverup", "contempt of Congress", all these together make a political embarrassment. I can remember a claim that the CIA was financing Far Eastern subversive operations by smuggling drugs into the US; its claim was that these drugs would have been imported anyway, so why not save the taxpayers some money!

F&F has finally hit the political bigtime; it has the clout to transcend any claim that Holder is being dumped on because of his skin color.

countrygun
06-21-2012, 18:54
Your statement of "valid investigative technique" is applicable, but it masks a POLITICAL reality.

The government can claim F&F was a statistical survey: get a known quantity of US civilian guns illegally into Mexico, see how many show up again within Mexico, compare it to the TOTAL number of illegal guns that show up in Mexico, and thus be able to estimate the TOTAL number of guns being imported surreptitiously into Mexico.

Political considerations will convert this statistical advocacy into politically explosive content. "Guns", "illegal", "DEA agent killed", "coverup", "contempt of Congress", all these together make a political embarrassment. I can remember a claim that the CIA was financing Far Eastern subversive operations by smuggling drugs into the US; its claim was that these drugs would have been imported anyway, so why not save the taxpayers some money!

F&F has finally hit the political bigtime; it has the clout to transcend any claim that Holder is being dumped on because of his skin color.


I am sorry to seemingly disagree with you about the significance here but I think it is much deeper than just the stupidity of the plan in the first place, or whether it can be justified.

Holder testified in Congress, that the "plan" did not come from himself or his top deputies, and that the President had no knowledge. So if that is true, then how can Obama throw the cloak of "Executive Privilege" over something that Holder claimed didn't touch the executive office?

If the program was stopped and shelved, whatis the value in keeping the information in the records secret?

It smells like what it is, lying to Congress to cover up, lying to Congress again to cover up the cover up, and then throwing "Executive Privlege" up to cover up the other two cover ups.

Flintlocker
06-21-2012, 19:25
First of all, he people attempting to straw purchase the guns were working for DOJ and they knew they were. they were acting as "agents" of the DOJ. So they weren't the criminals



That's factually untrue. Perhaps you should try reading up on the issue before attempting to comment on it.

sbhaven
06-21-2012, 19:27
The government can claim F&F was a statistical survey: get a known quantity of US civilian guns illegally into Mexico, see how many show up again within Mexico, compare it to the TOTAL number of illegal guns that show up in Mexico, and thus be able to estimate the TOTAL number of guns being imported surreptitiously into Mexico
There is one little flaw with the part I highlighted in red. The United States Government never really intended to track the guns once they were in Mexico. They never had a reliable method setup under Fast and Furious to track the guns once in Mexico. Under Fast and Furious, the Mexican government wasn't even told (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/19/world/la-fg-mexico-fast-furious-20110920) about the guns (at first) intentionally being sent into their country by the United States Government.

Then there is the aspect of possible DOJ/ATF violations of AECA (http://pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/aeca.html)/ITAR (http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/itar.html) by sending the Fast and Furious guns into Mexico. It appears, according to some, that to be AECA/ITAR legal, DOJ/ATF probably would have had to seek approval from the State Department Directorate of Defense Trade Controls, State Department General Counsel and possibly the Secretary of State (Hillary Clinton) along with possible approval from other government departments.

So its entirely possible that in addition to Obama having his fingers in this, Hillary may also find herself dragged into this.

Flintlocker
06-21-2012, 19:28
The government can claim F&F was a statistical survey: get a known quantity of US civilian guns illegally into Mexico, see how many show up again within Mexico, compare it to the TOTAL number of illegal guns that show up in Mexico, and thus be able to estimate the TOTAL number of guns being imported surreptitiously into Mexico.

.

That's not what the F&F operation attempted to accomplish. However that is the narrative of conspiracy nuts attempting to imagine their fantasy world in to reality.

samurairabbi
06-21-2012, 19:31
I am sorry to seemingly disagree with you about the significance here but I think it is much deeper than just the stupidity of the plan in the first place, or whether it can be justified.

Holder testified in Congress, that the "plan" did not come from himself or his top deputies, and that the President had no knowledge. So if that is true, then how can Obama throw the cloak of "Executive Privilege" over something that Holder claimed didn't touch the executive office?

If the program was stopped and shelved, whatis the value in keeping the information in the records secret?

It smells like what it is, lying to Congress to cover up, lying to Congress again to cover up the cover up, and then throwing "Executive Privlege" up to cover up the other two cover ups.
Your analysis is as applicable as mine. I hypothesized some kind of loopy statistical motive in my conjecture. Your presentation simply places my conjecture in the middle management of the government; that placement would not surprise me, for it is something we see all the time in large ponderous organizations.

The motive for invoking "executive privilege" on evidence about this situation is itself intriguing. I think the political potential of F&F will continue to increase as the summer goes on.

countrygun
06-21-2012, 19:39
That's not what the F&F operation attempted to accomplish. However that is the narrative of conspiracy nuts attempting to imagine their fantasy world in to reality.



If I tell you that a vase fell off a shelf and broke, am I a Gravity Conspiracy Nut"?

And according to you, anybody who is suspicious of this mess is a "Nut"?

Your valuable insight is noted, and given all the credit it deserves...really. Thank you for your contribution. When she comes around tell your nurse to up the dosage M'kay.

countrygun
06-21-2012, 19:54
"Hey kids, do you remember that song the " Clinton quibble-"It depends on what your definition of the word "is" is" ?

Well now you can be the first on your block to learn "the Obama coverup" it goes like this,

"Attorney General Holder and I knew nothing about "Fast and Furious" so I am invoking "Executive Privilege" to protect the knowledge, we didn't know"


C'mon kids, sing along.

samurairabbi
06-21-2012, 19:55
That's not what the F&F operation attempted to accomplish. However that is the narrative of conspiracy nuts attempting to imagine their fantasy world in to reality.
Then offer us YOUR reason for why F&F was originally conceived!

F&F is wacky enough for the zanny conspiracy theories to actually be REASONABLE! There are not many events in life of which that can be said.

sbhaven
06-21-2012, 20:02
Reason for Fast and Furious...
http://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/ATF_Report.pdf
In the fall of 2009, the Department of Justice (DOJ) developed a risky new strategy to combat gun trafficking along the Southwest Border. The new strategy directed federal law enforcement to shift its focus away from seizing firearms from criminals as soon as possible—and to focus instead on identifying members of trafficking networks. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) implemented that strategy using a reckless investigative technique that street agents call “gunwalking.” ATF’s Phoenix Field Division began allowing suspects to walk away with illegally purchased guns. The purpose was to wait and watch, in the hope that law enforcement could identify other members of a trafficking network and build a large, complex conspiracy case.

This shift in strategy was known and authorized at the highest levels of the Justice Department. Through both the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona and “Main Justice,” headquarters in Washington, D.C., the Department closely monitored and supervised the activities of the ATF. The Phoenix Field Division established a Gun Trafficking group, called Group VII, to focus on firearms trafficking. Group VII initially began using the new gunwalking tactics in one of its investigations to further the Department’s strategy. The case was soon renamed “Operation Fast and Furious,” and expanded dramatically. It received approval for Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) funding on January 26, 2010. ATF led a strike force comprised of agents from ATF, Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). The operation’s goal was to establish a nexus between straw purchasers of assault-style weapons in the United States and Mexican drug-trafficking organizations (DTOs) operating on both sides of the United States-Mexico border. Straw purchasers are individuals who are legally entitled to purchase firearms for themselves, but who unlawfully purchase weapons with the intent to transfer them into the hands of DTOs or other criminals.
U.S. Government Used Taxpayer Funds to Buy, Sell Weapons During 'Fast and Furious,' Documents Show (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/26/us-government-bought-and-sold-weapons-during-fast-and-furious-documents-show/)
According to documents obtained by Fox News, Agent John Dodson was ordered to buy six semi-automatic Draco pistols -- two of those were purchased at the Lone Wolf gun store in Peoria, Ariz. An unusual sale, Dodson was sent to the store with a letter of approval from David Voth, an ATF group supervisor.

Dodson then sold the weapons to known illegal buyers, while fellow agents watched from their cars nearby.

Dodson Draco authorization letter at this link (http://www.scribd.com/doc/66315131/Voth-Straw-Purchase-Authorization).

Drug lords targeted by Fast and Furious were FBI informants (http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/21/nation/la-na-fast-furious-20120322)
When the ATF made alleged gun trafficker Manuel Fabian Celis-Acosta its primary target in the ill-fated Fast and Furious investigation, it hoped he would lead the agency to two associates who were Mexican drug cartel members. The ATF even questioned and released him knowing that he was wanted by the Drug Enforcement Administration.

But those two drug lords were secretly serving as informants for the FBI along the Southwest border, newly obtained internal emails show. Had Celis-Acosta simply been held when he was arrested by theBureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in May 2010, the investigation that led to the loss of hundreds of illegal guns and may have contributed to the death of a Border Patrol agent could have been closed early.
What doomed Fast & Furious (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/border/what-doomed-fast-furious/article_9a2ea29d-a036-5cce-a1c9-f1002bfec166.html)
ATF agents viewed Celis-Acosta as the ringleader of a growing group of straw buyers monitored in Operation Fast an Furious, a man who would make requests for firearms and provide the money to buy them. DEA agents said he had also come up in a drug-trafficking case they were working on in Phoenix using a wiretap.
UPDATE: DID OPERATION ‘FAST AND FURIOUS’ ILLEGALLY SELL GUNS TO CRIMINALS & CONVICTED FELONS? (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/update-did-operation-fast-and-furious-illegally-sell-guns-to-convicted-felons/)
Now, Fox News is reporting that the Feds refuse to clarify whether they knowingly sold guns not just to straw buyers, but to two convicted felon straw buyers, who were allegedly able to purchase 363 guns between them:

Fox claims to have access to records and sources that indicate the FBI, in conjunction with the ATF, did in fact sell weapons illegally to felon straw buyers, and did so despite the fact that FBI checks may have alerted authorities to the criminal records. It reports:

“According to court records… two of the 20 defendants indicted in the Fast and Furious investigation have felony convictions and criminal backgrounds that experts say, at the very least, should have delayed them buying a single firearm. Instead, the duo bought dozens of guns on multiple occasions while federal officials watched on closed-circuit cameras.
Congressional and law-enforcement sources say the situation suggests the FBI, which operates the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, knowingly allowed the purchases to go forward after consulting with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which initiated Operation Fast and Furious.
Justice retracts second statement to Congress on Fast and Furious (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/20/justice-retracts-second-document-sent-to-congress-on-fast-furious/)
“This is the second time in nearly seven months that the department has gotten its facts wrong about gun walking,” Grassley said in a statement. “Attorney General Holder accused Attorney General Mukasey, without producing any evidence, of having been briefed on gun walking in Wide Receiver.
..............
The department several months ago retracted a Feb. 4, 2011, letter to Congress in which it inaccurately stated the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives -- which executed Fast and Furious -- “makes every effort to interdict weapons that have been purchased illegally and prevent their transportation to Mexico."
But what ever, its simply a political witch hunt by Republicans. :upeyes:

Edit to add: I didn't bother to include stories on Border Patrol agent Brian Terry murder where at least one or more Fast and Furious guns were found at the crime scene. Nor the murder of Jaime Zapata.

Flintlocker
06-21-2012, 20:04
Then offer us YOUR reason for why F&F was originally conceived!

F&F is wacky enough for the zanny conspiracy theories to actually be REASONABLE! There are not many events in life of which that can be said.

Here's a place for you to start your education:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-anti-gunrunning-effort-turns-fatally-wrong/2011/07/14/gIQAH5d6YI_print.html

samurairabbi
06-21-2012, 20:31
Here's a place for you to start your education:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-anti-gunrunning-effort-turns-fatally-wrong/2011/07/14/gIQAH5d6YI_print.html
Note the publication date on that article: July 2011. I had already noted the article sometime (I think) last autumn. The testimony and reasoning presented there is reasonable, but much has later become available that is just as reasonable. The idea of a bureaucracy guarding its own interests with self-serving testimony is applicable.

ModGlock17
06-22-2012, 05:09
If the Fast and Furious scandal investigation is just political then why did 31 U.S. House members, all of them Democrats (http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/ProjectGunrunnerLettertoPOTUS3June2011.pdf), write to President Obama, on June 3rd 2011, asking him to tell the DOJ to stop stonewalling the investigation?

:dunno:

I think they believed in the lying marketing advertisement about being the administration with the most TRANSPARENCY.

It's the 31 who had been duped, and know it. Others still don't know, probably due to denial....

'nuf said.

series1811
06-22-2012, 05:36
Here's a place for you to start your education:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-anti-gunrunning-effort-turns-fatally-wrong/2011/07/14/gIQAH5d6YI_print.html

More telling than you know.

Federal agents in the DOJ (and I was one for 21 years) know that the decision to let guns, drugs, or any other potentially dangerous items walk in an investigation, can only come from one place, the Attorney General. It is that big a deal to do it.

The idea that Holder didn't know about, and approve, guns walking in Fast and Furious, only makes sense to people who just don't know how DOJ works.

Deployment Solu
06-22-2012, 06:03
Doubt it.

Besides that it's just a political witch hunt.

Don't we have more important things to worry about?

Do you really think there is ANYTHING in this country more important than getting these clowns and criminals out of power??? I can't think of anything else that will even begin to get this country back on track. Romney is the lesser of two evils, but he is still not what we need.

sbhaven
06-22-2012, 08:02
Wide Receiver vs. Fast and Furious (http://reasonedpolitics.blogspot.com/2012/02/wide-receiver-vs-fast-and-furious.html)

Nov. 8, 2011 - Sen. Cornyn Grills Holder on Wide Receiver vs Fast and Furious (Wide Receiver questioning starts at about 3:00)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1G5x0XmNiA

sbhaven
06-22-2012, 10:09
Trey Gowdy is a Fast and Furious Rock Star
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=C6RFylFMSHo

sbhaven
06-22-2012, 10:17
Jon Stewart Trashes Obama’s Executive Privilege Assertion On Fast And Furious
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-trashes-obamas-executive-privilege-assertion-on-fast-and-furious/

Cavalry Doc
06-22-2012, 10:32
More telling than you know.

Federal agents in the DOJ (and I was one for 21 years) know that the decision to let guns, drugs, or any other potentially dangerous items walk in an investigation, can only come from one place, the Attorney General. It is that big a deal to do it.

The idea that Holder didn't know about, and approve, guns walking in Fast and Furious, only makes sense to people who just don't know how DOJ works.

Zing.

countrygun
06-22-2012, 11:56
That's factually untrue. Perhaps you should try reading up on the issue before attempting to comment on it.



Clearly they must be agents of the Government, the Government told the dealers to make the illegal sales and the guns (the best evidence) are now gone in Mexico.Where are the prosecutions of those involved who WEREN'T working for the DOJ or at the direction of the DOJ?

Where is the legal evidence (convictions) that proves that everyone involved wasn't acting under the authorization of DOJ?

Where are the criminals?

Legal American guns were illegally sold to "straw" purchasers and smuggled, illegally across the the border into the hands of foriegn criminals. At least 200 Mexicans and 2 Americam LEOs have been killed.

Now who, involved in this, is in jail for it because they weren't working for, or with the blessings of, the DOJ?

sbhaven
06-22-2012, 13:43
Rush Limbaugh explains the difference between Wide Receiver and Fast & Furious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MihRqylNaFI&feature=player_embedded

eracer
06-22-2012, 13:46
Ghads do you play fast and loose with the truth.

First of all, he people attempting to straw purchase the guns were working for DOJ and they knew they were. they were acting as "agents" of the DOJ. So they weren't the criminals

The gunshops that reported the suspicious purchase requests were told by DOJ to "go ahead and sell the guns", so they were not criminals.

The purchasers smuggled them across the border, at which point DOJ had no authority at all, and sold them to the Mexican criminals. DOJ was not working in concert with the Mexican authorities so at that point the connection to the weapons were lost.

So, just exactly what criminal organization were they going to uncover? the DOJ itself?

Let's not forget the little matter of sending some 2,700 weapons into a foreign Country without benefit of Congressional approval, an act of war being declared, or the Cartels being declared some sort of US friendly counter-government soldiers. The US government had to go through more hoops to send guns to Great Britain prior to a declaration of war with Germany.

"As to what Holder knew and when he knew it... is it going to bring the agents back to life? "

That has to be one of the singlemost ridiculous things I have ever hear in a thread having anything to do with "Justice". You really actually said that? AMAZING.

No, I don't think you "get it", I don't think you are capable from that sentence,No kidding.