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dbow
06-21-2012, 20:08
Anybody here shoot USPSA with their 10mm? You always see guys shooting 9mm at these things but i heard that they score you based on accuracy POWER and speed. If that's the case i'd love to try USPSA with my g20.

Meathead9
06-21-2012, 22:05
Almost everyone shooting Limited/Limited 10 (Major PF) is running 40's. All it takes to make Major with a 180gr bullet is 916fps, but most guys run them around 940fps. This is very easy to do with the 40, and most people prefer the smaller grip of the G22/35. Plus 40 cal brass is everywhere and way cheaper. I paid $100 for the last 5k of 40 brass I bought. I am running a G20SF with KKM 10-40 Barrel in Limited. I like the larger grip, and it allows me to load longer, which allows me to use faster powders to make major safely. I have also been able to use Arredondo extensions to give me reliable 20rd mags. Most USPSA shooters are gamers, so they have no use for full power 10 in this game.

Power Factor = Bullet Weight (gr) x Velocity (fps)
Major PF = 165,000
Minor PF = 125,000

dbow
06-22-2012, 08:15
Almost everyone shooting Limited/Limited 10 (Major PF) is running 40's. All it takes to make Major with a 180gr bullet is 916fps, but most guys run them around 940fps. This is very easy to do with the 40, and most people prefer the smaller grip of the G22/35. Plus 40 cal brass is everywhere and way cheaper. I paid $100 for the last 5k of 40 brass I bought. I am running a G20SF with KKM 10-40 Barrel in Limited. I like the larger grip, and it allows me to load longer, which allows me to use faster powders to make major safely. I have also been able to use Arredondo extensions to give me reliable 20rd mags. Most USPSA shooters are gamers, so they have no use for full power 10 in this game.

Power Factor = Bullet Weight (gr) x Velocity (fps)
Major PF = 165,000
Minor PF = 125,000

So you have two barrels? a 10 and 40 kkm? What is Limited mean? I would like to reload but starline brass between the 40 and 10mm are relatively the same. $140/1000 in 40, $147/1000 in 10mm. Instead of buying a new barrel, could you just make weaker 10mm loads?

cysoto
06-22-2012, 08:36
I am running a G20SF with KKM 10-40 Barrel in Limited.

Though, personally, I don't agree with the ruling and, more so, this rule may be amended in in 2013, as the USPSA Rulebook reads today, conversion barrels are a prohibited (and therefore illegal) modification in Production, Limited and L-10.

dbow
06-22-2012, 08:42
Though, personally, I don't agree with the ruling and, more so, this rule may be amended in in 2013, as the USPSA Rulebook reads today, conversion barrels are a prohibited (and therefore illegal) modification in Production, Limited and L-10.

does this also mean oem stock 40 barrel in a g20?

cysoto
06-22-2012, 08:43
Instead of buying a new barrel, could you just make weaker 10mm loads?
Many people choose to shoot .40 S&W because once-fired brass is both plentiful as well as inexpensive (when compared to 10mm) but, to answer your question, 'yes', you may just as easily reload softer-shooting 10mm ammunition.

Just FYI, Limited is one of the six Divisions that you can compete in in USPSA.
1) Open
2) Limited
3) Limited 10
4) Single Stack
5) Production
6) Revolver

The USPSA Rulebook explains the equipment requirements and other differences between these: http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf

mingaa
06-22-2012, 08:52
The 'PS' in USPSA stands for Practical Shooting. In IDPA the 'DP' stands for Defensive Pistol. Yeah they are competition events BUT the events are also great skill builders. Get started and run what ya' brung. You'll improve shooting skills with your HD, carry or SD pistols (or rifles and shotguns in USPSA Multi-Gun events). If you get hooked THEN maybe start thinking about better match equipment and custom ammo etc.

cysoto
06-22-2012, 08:53
does this also mean oem stock 40 barrel in a g20?

For Production, yes it does. For Limited, it is a gray area.

I want to reiterate that I personally believe this ruling to be asinine and that I absolutely disagree with Mr. Amidon's ruling on the subject but, up to this point, he has been really clear on his stance on this matter.

The NROI uses Appendix D2.21 to support their stance on the subject: •Replacement barrels – provided they are the same length as original factory standard.

Followed by the Special Conditions (at the end of that same page): Any complete handgun or components with a minimum production of 500 units by a factory and available to the general public.

Meathead9
06-22-2012, 09:00
Correct, I have the stock barrel & the 10mm-40 conversion barrel. You can download 10mm to 40major specs, but again brass is WAY more expensive. Once fired 10mm brass is almost impossible to find, and still more than twice the price of once fired 40 brass. You can find 40 brass all over the Internet for $25-$35 shipped per 1000. Like I said, I have a local source that sells me 5000pcs of 40 brass for $100.

Here's a really basic breakdown of the USPSA classes:

Production - Stock Pistols, no exterior modifications, 10rds max per magazine, scored Minor PF. Iron sights only.

Limited - External modifications allowed (grip work, magwells, triggers, slide lightening etc). Mostly scored Major, but minor is also allowed. Iron sights only. 140mm maximum magazine length, which is typically 19-22rds.

Limited 10 - same as Limited, except uses 10rd mags

Open - Pretty much unlimited modifications (compensators, red dot sights, thumb rests etc). Mostly scored major. 170mm maximum mag length, typically about 28rds.

Meathead9
06-22-2012, 09:37
Cy, is my G20SF with stock length 10-40 barrel not legal? I asked on BE before I started the build, and everyone said it was good to go. I read the rules too, and didn't see anything that said it was a no-go. I'll be pretty pissed if it's not an approved modification for Limited.

cysoto
06-22-2012, 10:00
Cy, is my G20SF with stock length 10-40 barrel not legal? I asked on BE before I started the build, and everyone said it was good to go. I read the rules too, and didn't see anything that said it was a no-go. I'll be pretty pissed if it's not an approved modification for Limited.
There was a lengthy discussion on the BE forum about the subject and, according to John Amidon, the answer is 'no'.

A gentleman with the username jaggy13 brought up Amidon's stance on the subject on post post #6 of this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=140016&st=0&p=1700635&hl=conversion%20barrels&fromsearch=1&#entry1700635

I have a couple of posts on that same thread where I present my point of view as to how I believe that Mr. Amidon is not correct on his assertion but, at the end of the day (and much to my dislike), he's the final authority in USPSA rules.

I was involved in that conversation because I was looking to shoot Limited Minor at a Level 2 match here in Colorado and I was planning on using a G35 with a conversion barrel to do so. After I read that thread (and just to be safe) I decided to still shoot Lim Minor but I did so with a G34 instead.

dbow
06-22-2012, 10:03
thanks guys for all the helpful info. I think for now i'll follow mingaa's advice, until i get hooked,i'll just shoot what i have. I would really love to reload 10mm for hunting and 40 for competition.

Right now i can buy 10mm ammo from underwood for $25 for a box of 50. 50 cents for a 135 grain hot round is not too bad. $30 for the 200 grain for hunting round.

For you guys that reload, once your equipment is paid for, how much can you reload 40 or 10mm per round? Which press do you recommend?

Meathead9
06-22-2012, 10:16
10mm & 40 are pretty much equal in reloading cost. I can reload Zero 180gr JHP's in either caliber for a little over $0.16 per rd/$16 per 100, and Bear Creek 180gr TC's for about $0.13 per rd/$13 per 100.

Meathead9
06-22-2012, 10:32
There was a lengthy discussion on the BE forum about the subject and, according to John Amidon, the answer is 'no'.

A gentleman with the username jaggy13 brought up Amidon's stance on the subject on post post #6 of this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=140016&st=0&p=1700635&hl=conversion%20barrels&fromsearch=1&#entry1700635

I have a couple of posts on that same thread where I present my point of view as to how I believe that Mr. Amidon is not correct on his assertion but, at the end of the day (and much to my dislike), he's the final authority in USPSA rules.

I was involved in that conversation because I was looking to shoot Limited Minor at a Level 2 match here in Colorado and I was planning on using a G35 with a conversion barrel to do so. After I read that thread (and just to be safe) I decided to still shoot Lim Minor but I did so with a G34 instead.


Thanks for the link, but it's still clear as mud in my case. That whole conversation is based on the 40-9mm conversion for Production Class. My conversion uses the same diameter bullet, and it's in Limited Class, so it's a little different. The funny thing is, that in CA 90% of the S_I Limited guns have to be bought/DROS's as 45's, then sent back after the 10 day waiting period to be converted to 40. There are a TON of S_I Limited shooters here in CA, so they're all shooting illegal guns? I know, I'm preaching to the choir, but this one is frustrating.

cysoto
06-22-2012, 11:12
I know, I'm preaching to the choir, but this one is frustrating.

Oh, believe me brother, I feel your pain! In the years that I have been shooting USPSA I have seen several rulings made by Mr. Amidon with which I don't fully agree but this whole thing about disallowing conversion barrels in Limited is just plain asinine.

VN350X10
06-29-2012, 19:50
The first 3 years I shot USPSA(production div) I used my G20 & I DIDN'T use "gamer loads" !
You haven't seen steel go down until you hit it with a load @ 214 PF.
I switched when the G34 became legal for production. But I don't really shoot the 9mm any better than the 10MM, and the idea of making RO's jump is kind of cool....
Besides, if you're shooting local matches, they usually aren't lost brass, so nobody picks up your brass on you. If you're not losing it, brass cost doesn't count !
Notice, I'm a RO also.

uncle albert

Meathead9
06-29-2012, 21:16
The first 3 years I shot USPSA(production div) I used my G20 & I DIDN'T use "gamer loads" !
You haven't seen steel go down until you hit it with a load @ 214 PF.
I switched when the G34 became legal for production. But I don't really shoot the 9mm any better than the 10MM, and the idea of making RO's jump is kind of cool....
Besides, if you're shooting local matches, they usually aren't lost brass, so nobody picks up your brass on you. If you're not losing it, brass cost doesn't count !
Notice, I'm a RO also.

uncle albert

I thought about running my G20LS in 9x25 Dillon in Limited, just to rattle some skulls. My 9x25 Dillon loads sound like rifle rounds compared to 9mm & 40. After standing in the bay while the Open guys shoot, my enthusiasm faded. Those Comp'd 9 Major guns are LOUD, plus the concussion of the gas exiting the comp is pretty impressive.


.

dl645
06-30-2012, 12:06
While I don't shoot USPSA, I do shoot IDPA. IDPA doesn't have the major/minor in each division. As a result, 10mm can only be shot in 3 divisions. ESR for a 10mm revolver with moon clips, G20/29 (also S&W 10mms and probably some others) in SSP and ESP for a 10mm 1911. Since SSP & ESP is usually 9mm, it puts you at a disadvantage. Even so, I've brought a 10mm 1911 out with me to club matches and while I may not be as competitive, I have a blast doing it! Usually with full powerish loads and not FBI Lite. Noise gets some attention and brass being thrown 20 feet behind me gets even more. Too much fun not to bring it out at least a few times a year!

VN350X10
06-30-2012, 17:48
Back when 9x25 Dillon was the hot setup for an open gun, I knew a LOT of RO's who refused to officiate when one of the blasters was up.
If you think it's loud in a ltd. gun, try one thru a comp !
But in ltd. it's useless, as a .40 cal is required to make major. The idea behind the .40 min. was to eliminate everybody using a .38 Super. Keep them in open if you will.
And the reason that 9Major came into being was the drop in major PF to 165 for open guns. 175 was blowing up a LOT of Supers & 9mm just couldn't make it.
FWIW...hottest 9mm factory ammo I've ever found is the "L7A1" Hirtenberger 124 gr.
This is the stuff that the BATFE told folks NOT to shoot in a pistol, as it was designed as carbine ammo.
It actually is the NATO spec ammo for a British Sterlilng sub-machinegun, running under ARCTIC CONDITIONS. I've clocked it, it makes an ave. MV of 1404 fps from my G34 production pistol That gives it a pf of 174.096 !
This was used as a baseline for my personal 9Major loading.....no, my stuff isn't(quite) that hot. I'm around 169-170 with a 147 gr bullet.
Funny thing is, it's the ONLY :dunno:124 gr ammo that my personal G34 shoots well. It just doesn't like 124 gr. bullets. So it gets fed 115's & 147's.


uncle albert