Anyone try .45 Supers in new Gen 4 21, yet? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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21Glock
06-22-2012, 12:49
Hi guys,
I have a Gen 3 21SF rigged up for shooting .45 Super( LW 6" barrel, ss non-captured guide rod, 22lb. ISMI recoil spring and of course, new .45 Super brass).
I love the grip and texture on my new Gen 4 20 10mm.
So much so, that I may sell or trade it in to get a Gen 4 21.
I may be wanting to get the Gen 4 21 and get it set for shooting .45 Super as well as hardball.
I know I would have to get a RSA adapter to use Gen 3 springs and guide rods for the Gen 4 slide.
Just curious if anyone has done it yet.

Thanks!

WeeWilly
06-22-2012, 13:08
Hi guys,
I have a Gen 3 21SF rigged up for shooting .45 Super( LW 6" barrel, ss non-captured guide rod, 22lb. ISMI recoil spring and of course, new .45 Super brass).
I love the grip and texture on my new Gen 4 20 10mm.
So much so, that I may sell or trade it in to get a Gen 4 21.
I may be wanting to get the Gen 4 21 and get it set for shooting .45 Super as well as hardball.
I know I would have to get a RSA adapter to use Gen 3 springs and guide rods for the Gen 4 slide.
Just curious if anyone has done it yet.

Thanks!

I wonder if you would need any spring upgrade at all?

My experience with the new RSA in my G29SF (basically a Gen 4 style RSA), I can shoot the hottest 10mm loads that will really do a job on my G20SF frame with a stock spring and I get zero frame battering.

I am thinking I will pick up a Gen 4 G21 and give it a try with my .45 Super loads. Maybe start light and move up, I am willing to bet the stock RSA will work fine all the way up to my target 230gr XTP at 1100fps.

21Glock
06-22-2012, 20:27
I wonder if you would need any spring upgrade at all?

My experience with the new RSA in my G29SF (basically a Gen 4 style RSA), I can shoot the hottest 10mm loads that will really do a job on my G20SF frame with a stock spring and I get zero frame battering.

I am thinking I will pick up a Gen 4 G21 and give it a try with my .45 Super loads. Maybe start light and move up, I am willing to bet the stock RSA will work fine all the way up to my target 230gr XTP at 1100fps.

I wouldn't try it though without a barrel like a KKM or Lone Wolf. Stock barrel will probably not have the support needed. That's the impression on the RSA on my new Gen 4 20. It's feels as stiff as my 22lb. spring on my Gen 3 21SF.

WeeWilly
06-22-2012, 20:58
I wouldn't try it though without a barrel like a KKM or Lone Wolf. Stock barrel will probably not have the support needed. That's the impression on the RSA on my new Gen 4 20. It's feels as stiff as my 22lb. spring on my Gen 3 21SF.

I am shooting .45 Super loads out of my Gen 3 G21SF (230gr FMJ/XTP/GD) to 1100 fps out of my stock barrel with no I'll effects. No smiles, no blown primers, not even the kind of extractor rash I get with my hot 10mm loads out of my G20. I will grant you the G21 does have less head support than the G20, but I have not reached the point where it seems to make a difference. I am only using Super brass, so far all virgin.

21Glock
06-23-2012, 05:07
Interesting. That's about what fps I'm getting on 230 gr. Rainier JHPs in my G21SF with a Lone Wolf 6' barrel. The Starline .45 Super brass is tough, that's for sure and the .45 Super top end psi is alot less than the 10mm from what I understand.
What lb. recoil springs you running in your Gen 3 21? steel guide rod? Or are you using using the stock springs?

Thanks for insight!

WeeWilly
06-23-2012, 09:00
Interesting. That's about what fps I'm getting on 230 gr. Rainier JHPs in my G21SF with a Lone Wolf 6' barrel. The Starline .45 Super brass is tough, that's for sure and the .45 Super top end psi is alot less than the 10mm from what I understand.
What lb. recoil springs you running in your Gen 3 21? steel guide rod? Or are you using using the stock springs?

Thanks for insight!

The RSA I started using was a captive 22lb ISMI SS setup from Glockmeister. This was when I was working up. As I have gotten into the 1100fps range I switched to a 24lb version of the same RSA (it feels MUCH stiffer than the 22 I was using, I have no spring rate checker, but it sure feels a like a lot more than 10% stiffer). The felt recoil with the 24lb spring was quite a bit more jarring than the 22 as well. Next time out, I am going to bring the 22lb and see if I can get the softer feel of the 22 and still keep the slide off the frame. With the 24lb spring, my brass lands within 4' even with the hottest loads I have tried.

I don't plan on trying to go beyond 1100fps. I have read about guys going well into the 1200's, but they are usually using longer barrels, comps, etc.

As well as the new style RSA works on my G29SF, I definitely want to try the Gen 4 G21 in this application.


I tried one of those shock buffs on my G20SF and it didn't work out too well.

21Glock
06-23-2012, 11:50
The RSA I started using was a captive 22lb ISMI SS setup from Glockmeister. This was when I was working up. As I have gotten into the 1100fps range I switched to a 24lb version of the same RSA (it feels MUCH stiffer than the 22 I was using, I have no spring rate checker, but it sure feels a like a lot more than 10% stiffer). The felt recoil with the 24lb spring was quite a bit more jarring than the 22 as well. Next time out, I am going to bring the 22lb and see if I can get the softer feel of the 22 and still keep the slide off the frame. With the 24lb spring, my brass lands within 4' even with the hottest loads I have tried.

I don't plan on trying to go beyond 1100fps. I have read about guys going well into the 1200's, but they are usually using longer barrels, comps, etc.

As well as the new style RSA works on my G29SF, I definitely want to try the Gen 4 G21 in this application.


I tried one of those shock buffs on my G20SF and it didn't work out too well.

I had the same experience with the 24lb. ISMI spring as being more jarring. Alot stiffer too. Now, most of the time I just shoot with the 22lb. spring in there with Supers and hardball. I have done a chrony on my Super loads and there are 1200fps or better with my LW 6" barrel.
I held a Gen 4 21 again today at the gun show and the grip is much better than my Gen 21 SF, or at lease it is to me.
I'll try sell my G21 for a Gen 4 21 soon or trade it at Ed's Pubic Safety where I got my Gen 4 20.
There is RSA Gen 4 adapter that is sold for about $10 that will allow Gen 3 guide rods and springs to be used in Gen 4 slides so that is an option.

WeeWilly
06-23-2012, 13:30
I had the same experience with the 24lb. ISMI spring as being more jarring. Alot stiffer too. Now, most of the time I just shoot with the 22lb. spring in there with Supers and hardball. I have done a chrony on my Super loads and there are 1200fps or better with my LW 6" barrel.
I held a Gen 4 21 again today at the gun show and the grip is much better than my Gen 21 SF, or at lease it is to me.
I'll try sell my G21 for a Gen 4 21 soon or trade it at Ed's Pubic Safety where I got my Gen 4 20.
There is RSA Gen 4 adapter that is sold for about $10 that will allow Gen 3 guide rods and springs to be used in Gen 4 slides so that is an option.

1200fps is moving that big old slug.

I am hoping the new style RSA on the Gen 4 21 will be all I need to run my Super loads. If the Gen 4 21 RSA functions as well as the stock RSA on my G29SF, I think I will be done with finding a gun I can run stock with my 45 Super loads. At that point it becomes my default SD gun.

The funny thing about the smaller grips, even though I always seem to prefer a smaller grip when holding a gun in the shop, I seem to shoot guns with larger grips a little better, wish I understood why.

Happypuppy
06-23-2012, 15:33
The funny thing about the smaller grips, even though I always seem to prefer a smaller grip when holding a gun in the shop, I seem to shoot guns with larger grips a little better, wish I understood why.

I think your grip is strongest at about 3/4 closed. At least mine is on a grip machine when is was having my arthritis tested. Assuming it is like golf clubs, a smaller grip makes you have to hold it tighter to get a firm grip



Sent from my 300 baud modem

WeeWilly
06-23-2012, 15:49
I think your grip is strongest at about 3/4 closed. At least mine is on a grip machine when is was having my arthritis tested. Assuming it is like golf clubs, a smaller grip makes you have to hold it tighter to get a firm grip



Sent from my 300 baud modem

Makes sense.

NoJoy
06-26-2012, 12:38
Does anyone know what the weight of the outer recoil spring is on the duel recoil spring setup of the Gen 4 21? I wonder if it is the same weight of the Gen 4 20. If the Gen 4 20 can support full power 10mm loads, then the Gen 4 21 should be able to shoot 45 Super without any mods. (Unless you want to swap out the stock barrel for a Lone Wolf or KKM)

21Glock
06-26-2012, 12:57
Does anyone know what the weight of the outer recoil spring is on the duel recoil spring setup of the Gen 4 21? I wonder if it is the same weight of the Gen 4 20. If the Gen 4 20 can support full power 10mm loads, then the Gen 4 21 should be able to shoot 45 Super without any mods. (Unless you want to swap out the stock barrel for a Lone Wolf or KKM)

I know one thing, the spring on my new Gen 4 20 is very stiff. It's the strongest spring I ever felt in a stock Glock. If the spring is anywhere near as stiff on a Gen 4 21, it should work with .45 Supers Ok.
KKM says their barrels will work with the new RSA on the Gen 4s with no problem.

NoJoy
06-26-2012, 17:35
I know one thing, the spring on my new Gen 4 20 is very stiff. It's the strongest spring I ever felt in a stock Glock. If the spring is anywhere near as stiff on a Gen 4 21, it should work with .45 Supers Ok.
KKM says their barrels will work with the new RSA on the Gen 4s with no problem.

Cool. If the recoil spring set-up is not the same in the Gen4 21, then I should be able to swap out the 21 duel recoil spring for the 20 duel recoil one right?

vaquero aleman
06-28-2012, 07:21
From Wikipedia:

Maximum Average Pressure is: 45 ACP (21,000 PSI), .45 ACP +P (23,000 PSI), .45 Super (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Super) (28,000 PSI), .460 Rowland (40,000 PSI).

This is due to the 10mm Auto's higher S.A.A.M.I. pressure rating of 37,500 psi (259,000 kPa),[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto#cite_note-autogenerated2-4) as opposed to 35,000 psi (240,000 kPa) for the .40 S&W,[5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto#cite_note-autogenerated2-4)

Just thought I would stick my nose into somebody else's business.

NoJoy
06-29-2012, 00:41
And Doubletap has a 10mm offering of 235gr. Simuliar weight to a 235gr 45acp/45 Super@28,000 psi. I don't know what the pressures are of DT 10mm rounds; but I am sure they are alot higher than the 45 Super rounds. And you can shoot DT ammo using the stock Glock set up.

ArmyDoc
06-30-2012, 17:58
I am shooting .45 Super loads out of my Gen 3 G21SF (230gr FMJ/XTP/GD) to 1100 fps out of my stock barrel with no I'll effects. No smiles, no blown primers, not even the kind of extractor rash I get with my hot 10mm loads out of my G20. I will grant you the G21 does have less head support than the G20, but I have not reached the point where it seems to make a difference. I am only using Super brass, so far all virgin.

Can you share what recipe you are using for these loads? Thx.

WeeWilly
07-01-2012, 09:33
Can you share what recipe you are using for these loads? Thx.
Of the two powders I have had success with, one I am above manufacturers published maximum load for .45 Super (Hodgdon Longshot) and the other (Alliant Bluedot) didn't have any published .45 Super data that I could find, so I am a little reluctant to publish my load data.

I have no way of measuring pressure accurately and have to rely on primitive (and perhaps unreliable) methods of determining what over the line pressures might be, I think the safest thing is for anyone interested in doing this sort of thing to work up their own loads slowly.

My goal was to get to 1100fps using 230gr Hornaday XTP's out of a stock G21 barrel. I have not actually tested the XTP's for velocity yet, as all my load work-ups first were done with PD 230gr RN FMJ's for cost reasons and I have not had a chance to load up the XTP's. I have shot the XTP's using identical loads (sans chrony) that got me to my 1100fps goal using the FMJ's and no smiles or blown primers were observed, so I am hopeful.

The way I approached the load work ups was to use a KKM barrel, shooting ladders and observing the brass. My KKM barrel does have a little more case head support where the ramp meets the chamber and is slightly tighter in the chamber, so I felt it did provide perhaps a little more margin of safety over stock (kind of an interim step worrying my way up the ladder). After I reached my goal using the KKM, I started over with an identical ladder and worked up using the stock barrel. This proceedure gave me a little more confidence what I was seeing with the brass and primers was repeatable

All my loads have been done with virgin Starline .45 Super brass and I throw the once fired into my normal .45ACP reload bucket.

The powders I have tried and got to my goal with have been Longshot and Bluedot. Powders I plan to try in the future are 2400, AA#9, VV-N350 and VV-3N38.

I shot some Underwood 230gr GD .45Super ammo the other day. They clocked in almost 50fps better than my best loads of my own, no smiles and even the primers looked better than my best loads, so I think I need to keep looking powder wise.

I hope that helps.

SDGlock23
07-01-2012, 14:12
Posted my first ever .45 Super load data today. 1089fps avg out of KKM bbl G21sf. I feel there is room to grow on this one. Have other powders too, but I've heard Power Pistol is great in the Super.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19151708&postcount=69

21Glock
07-05-2012, 19:59
Of the two powders I have had success with, one I am above manufacturers published maximum load for .45 Super (Hodgdon Longshot) and the other (Alliant Bluedot) didn't have any published .45 Super data that I could find, so I am a little reluctant to publish my load data.

I have no way of measuring pressure accurately and have to rely on primitive (and perhaps unreliable) methods of determining what over the line pressures might be, I think the safest thing is for anyone interested in doing this sort of thing to work up their own loads slowly.

My goal was to get to 1100fps using 230gr Hornaday XTP's out of a stock G21 barrel. I have not actually tested the XTP's for velocity yet, as all my load work-ups first were done with PD 230gr RN FMJ's for cost reasons and I have not had a chance to load up the XTP's. I have shot the XTP's using identical loads (sans chrony) that got me to my 1100fps goal using the FMJ's and no smiles or blown primers were observed, so I am hopeful.

The way I approached the load work ups was to use a KKM barrel, shooting ladders and observing the brass. My KKM barrel does have a little more case head support where the ramp meets the chamber and is slightly tighter in the chamber, so I felt it did provide perhaps a little more margin of safety over stock (kind of an interim step worrying my way up the ladder). After I reached my goal using the KKM, I started over with an identical ladder and worked up using the stock barrel. This proceedure gave me a little more confidence what I was seeing with the brass and primers was repeatable

All my loads have been done with virgin Starline .45 Super brass and I throw the once fired into my normal .45ACP reload bucket.

The powders I have tried and got to my goal with have been Longshot and Bluedot. Powders I plan to try in the future are 2400, AA#9, VV-N350 and VV-3N38.

I shot some Underwood 230gr GD .45Super ammo the other day. They clocked in almost 50fps better than my best loads of my own, no smiles and even the primers looked better than my best loads, so I think I need to keep looking powder wise.

I hope that helps.

Did some shooting with .45 Supers yesterday with my Gen 3 21SF. Fired one shot and then next round wouldn't cycle into the chamber, hung up between the follower and feed ramp .
Probably need to get some extra power mag. springs since the .45 Super really racks that slide fast and go right pass a round in the mag.

WeeWilly
07-05-2012, 22:59
Did some shooting with .45 Supers yesterday with my Gen 3 21SF. Fired one shot and then next round wouldn't cycle into the chamber, hung up between the follower and feed ramp .
Probably need to get some extra power mag. springs since the .45 Super really racks that slide fast and go right pass a round in the mag.

What RSA were you using?

Also, how old are the magazine springs?

21Glock
07-06-2012, 07:13
What RSA were you using?

Also, how old are the magazine springs?

The RSA is Gen 3. A stainless steel non-captured guide rod and a ISMI 22lb. recoil spring. The mag springs are about 3-4 yrs. old. Probably time to replace them with some Wolf extra power springs so I won't have any more FTFs on the .45 Supers.
This is the first time this has happened with these mags, time to replace their springs.

gatorboy
07-15-2012, 11:32
I'll stick my nose in here also :)) .

I use a 22# Wolff RSA in a G3 20 and have a G4 21 with stock RSA. The Wolff is considerably heavier.

Also remember the 10mm slides are heavy. The top three heaviest Glock slides in order is the 20, 24 and 29. So the 29 slide is heavier than the 21 slide. There are aftermarket RSA's for the G4's out already. You can get heavier dual recoil springs. Love reading about the 45 Super and plan on trying it in my 21 and M&P sometime soon. The 10mm is great but I like the idea of a 230 gr. 451" projectile @ approximately 1150 FPS.

CanyonMan
07-28-2012, 21:33
I'll stick my nose in here also :)) .

I use a 22# Wolff RSA in a G3 20 and have a G4 21 with stock RSA. The Wolff is considerably heavier.

Also remember the 10mm slides are heavy. The top three heaviest Glock slides in order is the 20, 24 and 29. So the 29 slide is heavier than the 21 slide. There are aftermarket RSA's for the G4's out already. You can get heavier dual recoil springs. Love reading about the 45 Super and plan on trying it in my 21 and M&P sometime soon. The 10mm is great but I like the idea of a 230 gr. 451" projectile @ approximately 1150 FPS.


Amen to that amigo !

If I can get this G29 of mine sold (all parties interested PM me :supergrin: ) I am going to get 'anothe'r G21, (sold the one I had a while back) and move on with the 45super set up. Just a good LW or a KKM and a 24# ISMI spring and steel rod and 45super brass and your good to go.

I EDC "in town" a M1911 in 45acp, but like you pard, the idea of the 230gr at 1100/1200fps will do all I need and big holes don't shrink ! haha.


Good thread guys, I'm inspired ! haha.

I'll keep my G20, but the 'like new' G29 needs a new home boy's ;) Please excuse me for the little "ad hints here." ;)


Good shooting Gator.










CM

Bravo2
08-15-2012, 01:29
I am interested in a gen 4 g21 and also 45 super. I have also thought of getting a gen4 g20 also and get 6" barrels for both. Does anyone hunt with there 45 super? How is its accuracy? I just traded for gen3 g20 OD and got a SL 6" barrel with it. The buddy I traded went and bought a gen4 g20. I got to fell of it today and I really like the grip better then gen3. I use to own a gen3 g21 and g30 years ago. I also recently handled a gen4 g22 and it was better grip fell also then my duty weapon gen3 g22. So I am bit by the gen 4 bug and like to check out a gen4 g30 while I'm at it.
I forgot but seem like I heard that before that the slide weights were different on g21 vs g20 but don't know why exactly unless its for better gun cycling. So do to that it may knock out my idea of getting one gun and get the other caliber and shoot both 45acp and 10mm out of it. If so I got to buy 2 guns unless I keep the 10mm I got and just get the g21. I was interested in the 45 super years ago. If I get the g21 I would like to get aftermarket barrel for that or is the 45 super standard 45acp chambering still? I thought from member long ago it was little longer casing.
I do want to had I got use to the g21 years ago and probably get use to the g20 I got but it is a little to big for my hand and having a gen4 g21 to shoot with it might get annoying in the difference they feel like when shooting. I hate to spend the money and get two but it seems like maybe I should go that route if I sell the g20 I got now. I do like the od green frame though and its sad they don't make them anymore.

vaquero aleman
08-15-2012, 09:16
Check out Lone Wolf Distributors. You can buy different slide and barrel combinations for both the G21 and G20.

And you might find this thread interesting as well:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1382239

Teecher45
10-07-2012, 22:57
Well, a little bump here for 2 reasons.
1) I'm very interested if anyone has any updates, especially since I own a Gen 4 21 and am interested in knowing if anyone has had any success with shooting the .45 Super out of a stock Gen 4 21?
2) I only need a 10mm/.45 Super a couple of times (or less) a year. Annually my father and I travel to Colorado to elk hunt and would ideally shoot a couple of mags through it to check for function then carry it hunting as a last resort type weapon. I probably could make a box of .45 Super last me forever and just shoot ACP the rest of the year.
So does anyone know if it a Stock Gen 4 21 would shoot a box of .45 Super without any ill effects?

SDGlock23
10-08-2012, 16:52
I can't answer your question, but in regards to function, there's no reason why the Gen4 wouldn't handle the .45 Super. Underwoods offers some .45 Super and says that it can be shot in the G21 but should have stiffer springs, and the Gen4 does have a stiffer spring than regular Gen3's. I would personally rather have a better supported barrel as well, but I'm not going to say it's a must because I don't know, I've only loaded .45 Super for use in my KKM barrel.

Teecher45
10-10-2012, 07:27
Ok SD, that sounds right. Thanks for your help.


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SDGlock23
10-27-2012, 09:27
Update: Yes it works, but again I do use an aftermarket barrel. I recently replace my G21sf with a Gen4 G21.

Teecher45
10-28-2012, 15:26
Thanks SD, sounds like It'll work fine, but want to be certain before I move on. Your saying you tried it in your Gen 4 G21?
If so, I'm guessing the barrel won't affect reliability, just accuracy?
I'm planning only putting a few rounds through my 21. It will only carry super rounds when bow hunting.

SDGlock23
10-28-2012, 21:06
I've shot the .45 Super in my G21 Gen4, but only through the KKM barrel. The stock barrel would work I'm positive, but might be harder on brass which isn't an issue if you don't reload.

Teecher45
10-29-2012, 19:16
Reload yes. Reload .45 Super, no.
I'll only be carrying it a couple of weeks a year. My 21 probably won't see a whole box of .45 Supers in it's lifetime. Just while bowhunting in Colorado.
Thank you for your help.

NoJoy
11-16-2012, 14:27
I'll stick my nose in here also :)) .

I use a 22# Wolff RSA in a G3 20 and have a G4 21 with stock RSA. The Wolff is considerably heavier.

Also remember the 10mm slides are heavy. The top three heaviest Glock slides in order is the 20, 24 and 29. So the 29 slide is heavier than the 21 slide. There are aftermarket RSA's for the G4's out already. You can get heavier dual recoil springs. Love reading about the 45 Super and plan on trying it in my 21 and M&P sometime soon. The 10mm is great but I like the idea of a 230 gr. 451" projectile @ approximately 1150 FPS.

Hey this is good info :cool:
Do you know how much heavier a G20 slide is compared to the G21 Slide? Is it a couple ounces heavier?

vaquero aleman
11-16-2012, 16:12
On the Glock website:

The G20 is listed as 27.69oz unloaded

The G21 is listed as 26.46oz unloaded.

They don't list component weight so I can only speculate about that.

And, we have to consider that the G20 barrel is thicker than the G21 barrel so I am assuming that the G20 barrel adds something to the equation as well.

This is my G21 factory slide with all of the components still installed but the barrel and recoil assy removed. It weighs 1lbs 3/4oz like that.

Can someone else weigh their G20 slide and post it here?
http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q547/vaqueroaleman/013.jpg

WeeWilly
11-16-2012, 18:07
I only have Gen 3's, still don't have a Gen 4. :crying:

G21 - Assembled slide (no barrel or RSA) - 16.8
G20 - Assembled slide (no barrel or RSA) - 17.7

G21 - Barrel only - 4.0oz
G20 - Barrel only - 4.7oz.

My Glockmeister 22/24lb SS RSA weighs .7oz more than stock RSA.

All weighed on a cheap postal scale so YMMV.

NoJoy
11-17-2012, 17:38
Cool thx. Looks like the G20 slide is almost an ounce heavier. Barrel is heavier too, but it is a little thicker which make sense. Every bit helps when dealing with higher power loads. :)

gatorboy
12-19-2012, 12:44
Does anyone know what the weight of the outer recoil spring is on the duel recoil spring setup of the Gen 4 21? I wonder if it is the same weight of the Gen 4 20. If the Gen 4 20 can support full power 10mm loads, then the Gen 4 21 should be able to shoot 45 Super without any mods. (Unless you want to swap out the stock barrel for a Lone Wolf or KKM)

I'm not sure but the springs in my G4 22 are much stronger than those in my G4 21.


Cool. If the recoil spring set-up is not the same in the Gen4 21, then I should be able to swap out the 21 duel recoil spring for the 20 duel recoil one right?

Exact dimensions so they can be swapped. The 22 RSA is just shy of the length of 21 and 20 RSA. The 20 and 21 RSA's will work in the 22 however. The inner spring guide sticks out a bit but will function 100%.

gatorboy
12-19-2012, 12:50
I'm going to try it out soon. I'll wait until I know if 20 springs are heavier, if they are I'll order the 20 RSA. If not, wish me luck! I may put some exhaust tape on inside of slide to add a bit more weight either way.