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gunslinger3
06-23-2012, 08:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfdEbe7e9GE&feature=player_embedded

:whistling:

RussP
06-23-2012, 08:16
This is GT member boyscout399.

Please abide by all the GT rules when discussing his encounter...

CigarandScotch
06-23-2012, 08:39
Sounds like he was well versed in the precedents set by relevant court decisions. Sad that most would not be so prepared in such a scenario, and would therefore be unlawfully detained and/or harassed just for exercising their rights. You have to be prepared to paddle your own canoe (upstream) to avoid the pitfalls of being harassed like this.

This is just one of reasons I would not open carry.

And I am not a cop basher; I do see both sides of this issue and they have jobs to do. Some nosy nanny obviously called the cops because they saw a bad scary gun in a holster and the police were obliged to look into it. I think both parties handled themselves professionally.

IhRedrider
06-23-2012, 08:44
School was in session. It's shame when LEOs are not aware of what is and isn't illegal.

Arc Angel
06-23-2012, 08:49
:shocked: Do you think the politicians we’re up against are stupid? If, in the first place, they are smart enough to get themselves elected then they’re, also, smart enough to know how to successfully manipulate and manage, ‘open carry idiots’ too.

THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC SEES OPEN CARRY AS A PERSONAL THREAT TO, BOTH, THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.

Antagonistic politicians know this. This is the real reason, ‘Why’ civilian open carry of sidearms is regularly included in weapons laws that anti-Second Amendment politicos are compelled to allow through the legislative process. Every shrewd politico knows that any ingenuous gun-toting jackass who’s dumb enough to walk around in an urban environment sporting an exposed pistol is, ultimately, only going to hurt - rather than help - his own intellectual right to keep and bear arms.

Truthfully I really don’t care what the ingenuous jackasses of this world do with their guns; but, I do care about what their ill-considered social behaviors might ultimately force me to do with mine. I’ll tell you something: I’m an old man; and, in my day, I’ve seen a lot of political shenanigans. Hear me well: If THIS is, ‘the best that we’ve got’ then we are definitely our own worst enemies and already thoroughly screwed. (Which we just might be, anyway; but I just thought I’d mention it. Comprende?) :upeyes:

CigarandScotch
06-23-2012, 08:54
Ironic that open carry jeopardizes our rights (as gun owners) so much more than concealed carry. Out of sight is out of mind.

If the "gun fearing public" knew how many concealed weapons were around them, lawfully or otherwise...well, let's just hope they never know.

gunslinger3
06-23-2012, 09:09
Ironic that open carry jeopardizes our rights (as gun owners) so much more than concealed carry. Out of sight is out of mind.

If the "gun fearing public" knew how many concealed weapons were around them, lawfully or otherwise...well, let's just hope they never know.

:nailbiting:

Yes. I don't think they realize they may be standing right next to a loaded firearm while waiting in line at the grocery store.....

CigarandScotch
06-23-2012, 09:11
I feel better knowing that if someone breaks bad, he may just get capped by an armed grandma.

Chris Brines
06-23-2012, 11:45
Awesome. Now I feel like I know a famous person. I've posted that video in about 4 local gun forums lol....

Cavalry Doc
06-23-2012, 12:56
This could have been prevented by concealed carry.

jpa
06-23-2012, 14:19
Any follow-up after the incident? Did the Sgt on scene say or do anything? Did the OCer complain up the chain of command?

DaneA
06-23-2012, 21:32
TN law states that:
(n) (1) Except as provided in subdivision (n)(2), a permit issued pursuant to this section shall be good for four (4) years and shall entitle the permit holder to carry any handgun or handguns that the permit holder legally owns or possesses. The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.

So in the case of the video, if this guy was in TN he would be in violation of the law for not providing his permit/ID and the officer would not need any cause for the stop?

Green Dragoon
06-24-2012, 05:45
the police have a tough, tough job.

IhRedrider
06-24-2012, 06:23
THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC SEES OPEN CARRY AS A PERSONAL THREAT TO, BOTH, THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.


I'm just curious, where have gathered this piece of information? I have OCed and not experienced anything to even give me the impression that anyone but 2 people were the least bit concerned that I was carrying. in fact I've had a order of magnitude more say something positive about me carrying. And the two people, one a 20ish year old girl and one a 40ish cop, after they initiated the conversation and we talked, at the end of the conversation no longer seemed to have an issue. Much less a indication that I was a threat to anyone. Maybe I live in a more reasonable state than others.

Spiffums
06-24-2012, 06:33
TN law states that:


So in the case of the video, if this guy was in TN he would be in violation of the law for not providing his permit/ID and the officer would not need any cause for the stop?

How do you demand ID/Permit if you don't stop the person? I'm not tracking your train of though here.

beatcop
06-24-2012, 06:39
You will always find some cop to play with and make a video citing case law...if that's what your goal is. I would like to think that any LE response has the goal of addressing a public safety concern, rather than discouraging permissable behavior.

1. Frequency of conduct
2. Caller's description of event
3. Demeanor of actor

steveksux
06-24-2012, 06:42
TN law states that:


So in the case of the video, if this guy was in TN he would be in violation of the law for not providing his permit/ID and the officer would not need any cause for the stop?

Does that law refer to permitted concealed carry?

If TN is an open carry state, don't think that would apply.

Randy

RussP
06-24-2012, 06:49
Here is boyscout399's original post on OCDO.I guess it's that time of year again. It seems every spring I get stopped by the Portland PD.

I got video this time

I also wrote an email to the police chief:

Chief Sauschuck,

On 26MAY2012 at about 17:15 I was stopped by Officer J McDonald. I recorded a video of the stop for my protection. You can view the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfdEbe7e9GE

Officer McDonald claimed to have received calls that I was walking around with a holstered firearm. This is a legal activity in Maine. He stopped me, put on gloves, and removed my weapon from me. I told him I do not consent to any searches or seizures. He unloaded my firearm and before ejecting the round from the chamber, he pointed my loaded firearm at my legs. This is unacceptable behavior.

There are many things that need to be taken into account here. Terry v Ohio requires three criteria to be met in order to disarm an individual. The officer must have a suspicion that the individual is armed. The officer must have a suspicion that the individual is dangerous. Thirdly, the officer must have a reasonable suspicion that the individual has committed or is about to commit a crime. Officer McDonald admitted in this video that the only reason he stopped me was for the legal carrying of my firearm and that he did not have any reason to suspect me of crime. Therefore, the seizure of my firearm was not allowed under Terry.

Secondly, having no suspicion of crime, why was I not free to go? Delaware v Prouse says that an officer cannot detain someone without reasonable suspicion of crime. McDonald had none. This is a sign of poor training and I want to bring it to your attention so that it can be easily remedied. All of your officers should know that they must have a suspicion of an actual crime before making a detainment.

Thirdly, Officer McDonald demanded my ID and would not return my firearm to me when I requested to end the encounter. Maine law in Title 17A Sec 15-A only requires someone to provide their name and DOB if the officer is issuing a summons to the individual. The officer said he needed to see my ID to ensure that I was not a felon. When asked if he had any reason to believe I was a felon, he said he did not. Again, he is making demands and detaining me without suspicion of any criminal activity. Terry requires more than a mere hunch to initiate a detainment. Hiibel v Nevada and Brown v Texas both require reasonable suspicion of crime before demanding an ID.

Officer McDonald admitted that the only reason why he stopped me was because of my legally carried firearm. I would like to point you to US v DeBerry from the 7th Circuit. In that ruling a federal judge said that a the presence of a firearm where legal to possess cannot by itself be reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

I believe that a lot of progress has been made under your direction to restore proper and legal police work in your city. I strongly believe that through proper training incidents such as this can be avoided. My suggestion to officers responding to a legally armed man in the future is this: Attempt to initiate a consensual encounter. If the individual does not consent to a police encounter, then observe that individual until such time that the officer develops a reasonable suspicion that crime is afoot. Only then should a detainment be made.

If you would like to discuss this further, please feel free to call. I am not a litigious person, but I do not appreciate violations of my rights.

Signed,
XXXXXXXXXX
Phone: XXX-XXX-XXXX
To date he has not posted about any reply.

Cavalry Doc
06-24-2012, 06:56
Hmmmm. Almost a month ago. Wonder what that means?

HalfHazzard
06-24-2012, 06:58
Great, another one of these videos.

I tend to side with police. I know that if they truly violate my rights and take away my freedom there's some lawyer that'll take my case pro bono.

Why don't these guys ever join the force to try to improve it?

DaneA
06-24-2012, 07:00
Does that law refer to permitted concealed carry?

If TN is an open carry state, don't think that would apply.

Randy

TN has a handgun carry permit. You have to have a permit to carry both OC and CC.

What I was getting at is that the fellow in the video cited several cases that gave him the right to refuse providing ID to the officer. According to what I'm reading in TN law about providing ID upon request would the officer be bound by the cases that the fellow cited?
My understanding (which my be skewed) is that an officer in TN can stop an individual carrying a firearm and request his/her permit without any other cause?

Misty02
06-24-2012, 09:11
TN law states that:


So in the case of the video, if this guy was in TN he would be in violation of the law for not providing his permit/ID and the officer would not need any cause for the stop?

We have something similar

790.06  (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html)License to carry concealed weapon or firearm (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html).

The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Violations of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court.

.

xmanhockey7
06-24-2012, 09:30
:shocked: Do you think the politicians we’re up against are stupid? If, in the first place, they are smart enough to get themselves elected then they’re, also, smart enough to know how to successfully manipulate and manage, ‘open carry idiots’ too.

THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC SEES OPEN CARRY AS A PERSONAL THREAT TO, BOTH, THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.

Antagonistic politicians know this. This is the real reason, ‘Why’ civilian open carry of sidearms is regularly included in weapons laws that anti-Second Amendment politicos are compelled to allow through the legislative process. Every shrewd politico knows that any ingenuous gun-toting jackass who’s dumb enough to walk around in an urban environment sporting an exposed pistol is, ultimately, only going to hurt - rather than help - his own intellectual right to keep and bear arms.

Truthfully I really don’t care what the ingenuous jackasses of this world do with their guns; but, I do care about what their ill-considered social behaviors might ultimately force me to do with mine. I’ll tell you something: I’m an old man; and, in my day, I’ve seen a lot of political shenanigans. Hear me well: If THIS is, ‘the best that we’ve got’ then we are definitely our own worst enemies and already thoroughly screwed. (Which we just might be, anyway; but I just thought I’d mention it. Comprende?) :upeyes:

Cite please? Open carry is legal in an overwhelming majority of states with Oklahoma becoming the most recent state to allow it. Yeah Comifornia recently banned it but hell those people would ban all firearms and ammo if they thought they could get away with it.

Lior
06-24-2012, 09:44
1. I like this video, and I like the right to open carry. The gentleman asserts his rights before the government agents.
2. That said, I think he would have been better off to use his judgment than his eloquence (i.e. covering it up when surrounded with people whom he doesn't know).
3. As for open carry being a "suspicious act" that makes people uneasy and call the cops, I can understand all the parties concerned. The police were right in talking to him, but not detaining IMO.
4. If CC without any need for permission from the government in every state were doable, fewer people would have such problems.

steveksux
06-24-2012, 10:05
TN has a handgun carry permit. You have to have a permit to carry both OC and CC.

What I was getting at is that the fellow in the video cited several cases that gave him the right to refuse providing ID to the officer. According to what I'm reading in TN law about providing ID upon request would the officer be bound by the cases that the fellow cited?
My understanding (which my be skewed) is that an officer in TN can stop an individual carrying a firearm and request his/her permit without any other cause?Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like that approach wouldn't work in TN.

Even assuming those cases cited would make that part of TN law unconstitutional, it'll likely take someone like Heller to break the law, undergo the consequences to gain standing, then push the issue through the courts to get that point across.

The romantic/optimist in me would like to believe TN legislature would adjust the law if someone pointed it out to them... but that side of me tends towards disappointment... :supergrin:

Randy

AA#5
06-24-2012, 11:13
I'm against OC where people don't expect to see OC'ing, but I can't help but find it both entertaining and amusing when a citizen lectures police officers on the law. Especially when they prevail!

Brucev
06-24-2012, 12:40
For years I've routinely carried a handgun when out and about in the woods/fields. When coming into town, I've been known to keep the handgun on my side or in the shoulder holster (very convenient when pushing through brush/cold weather, etc.). I've not ever had any questions from shop owners/employees, police, etc. I recognize this gentleman is in a major city. I can understand rational concern on the part of persons unfamiliar with firearms or what is permitted by law. I would not have known what to say in response to the questions posed by the officers. This gentleman is obviously very well versed in the applicable law covering his oc of a handgun. One would have to hope that all officers were as aware of these laws. In this case, the officers did not appear to have such knowledge. Maybe they learned a lesson.

F350
06-24-2012, 13:29
Why does everyone keep talking about Tennessee when the title clearly states PORTLAND, MAINE?????

I am living in Colorado, specifically what is called "The Grand Valley" about 30 miles from Utah and have OCed everyday since the weather got warm. I have had 1 snide comment about OC in which after I explained "why" I would pick OC over CC he somewhat admitted I made sense.

I have had numerous "How often do you get hassled for that? I've seen all the You-Tube video" questions; one was in front of a cop who admitted he preferred OC because along with dress and demeanor he could quickly make a judgement on the person, with concealed carry he never knew.

Wife and I have our favorite little breakfast joint and since I didn't want to make a scene I asked the owner if he would mind my OCing. He got a look like "Did you really ask that?" and said "Hell no! I like it when people open carry in here, there are a couple groups that come in for lunch that always open carry".

I guess the "panic of the majority of the people" would greatly depend on where you live, downtown Philly as opposed to the western slope of Colorado.

RussP
06-24-2012, 14:34
Why does everyone keep talking about Tennessee when the title clearly states PORTLAND, MAINE?????So people can see the differences between OC in various states, as well as not many people on here from Maine contributing to the "Maine" discussion. :cool:

LoadToadBoss
06-24-2012, 14:45
What is the chance that officers begin to "create" reasonable suspicion, such as 1) the OCer looks underaged and thus stoppable, or 2) the OCer looks intoxicated and thus stoppable.

For #2, all the LEO would need to say is that s/he saw the OCer sway while walking. Once the LEO can articulate a reasonable suspicion, then all actions necessary to assuage that RAS can be taken. I wouldn't want to see that happen.

SouthernBoyVA
06-24-2012, 14:48
TN has a handgun carry permit. You have to have a permit to carry both OC and CC.

What I was getting at is that the fellow in the video cited several cases that gave him the right to refuse providing ID to the officer. According to what I'm reading in TN law about providing ID upon request would the officer be bound by the cases that the fellow cited?
My understanding (which my be skewed) is that an officer in TN can stop an individual carrying a firearm and request his/her permit without any other cause?

In the case of a CC permit, you must surrender the permit and if required, a photo ID when requested by an officer in states where this is the law. The reason you must show these documents is because concealed carry is not a right in those states; it's a privilege. You must receive permission (permit) in order to do this.

In states where open carry is the normal (standard, default) mode of carry, such as my state, no permit is needed so no ID needs to be provided when asked, unless other circumstances enter the picture.

SouthernBoyVA
06-24-2012, 14:52
What is the chance that officers begin to "create" reasonable suspicion, such as 1) the OCer looks underaged and thus stoppable, or 2) the OCer looks intoxicated and thus stoppable.

For #2, all the LEO would need to say is that s/he saw the OCer sway while walking. Once the LEO can articulate a reasonable suspicion, then all actions necessary to assuage that RAS can be taken. I wouldn't want to see that happen.

This is one of the best reasons to carry a recording device for your protection against such illegal police behavior.

vettely
06-24-2012, 16:19
Cover your **** up! If you want to show how tough and bad ass you are by displaying, in public, a loaded firearm on your hip become a LEO and try wearing the uniform awhile.

Concealed carrying works to your benefit for many reasons.
It's interesting that the guys who like to flaunt their machismo via open "look at me" carry are never LEO or from a military specialized unit such as Rangers or SEALs.

Bren
06-24-2012, 16:30
Rule 1: If you are going to debate the police on video, try to act a little more manly and a little less nutty. Acting like the guy in the video puts you at an immediate disadvantage because the police are trying not to laugh at you, which hardly makes your wacky string of case citations intimidating.

Rule 2: Only nuts debate on the street by citing case law.

Cover your **** up! If you want to show how tough and bad ass you are by displaying, in public, a loaded firearm on your hip become a LEO and try wearing the uniform awhile.

Concealed carrying works to your benefit for many reasons.

The most honest OCer I've seen post here was that one a while back who thought girls liked him more when he OCed, or something like that. :rofl:

kenpoprofessor
06-24-2012, 16:43
Cover your **** up! If you want to show how tough and bad ass you are by displaying, in public, a loaded firearm on your hip become a LEO and try wearing the uniform awhile.

Concealed carrying works to your benefit for many reasons.
It's interesting that the guys who like to flaunt their machismo via open "look at me" carry are never LEO or from a military specialized unit such as Rangers or SEALs.

You say this like it's a fact, it's not. I have friends that are Army vets and now Federal Officers that do indeed OC everywhere they go off duty. They rarely cover it.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Mayhem like Me
06-24-2012, 17:09
You say this like it's a fact, it's not. I have friends that are Army vets and now Federal Officers that do indeed OC everywhere they go off duty. They rarely cover it.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Kinda proves his point..

Birds of a feather and all that.

TBO
06-24-2012, 17:17
You say this like it's a fact, it's not. I have friends that are Army vets and now Federal Officers that do indeed OC everywhere they go off duty. They rarely cover it.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
"Federal Officers".

What agency do they work for, and what is their primary role?

Mayhem like Me
06-24-2012, 17:31
"Federal Officers".

What agency do they work for, and what is their primary role?


BP I'm guessing....

kenpoprofessor
06-24-2012, 18:23
"Federal Officers".

What agency do they work for, and what is their primary role?



BP I'm guessing....

Hmm, so BP and Customs are somehow not on the level of Police now :yawn:? They have a badge, a gun, and same arrest powers, in fact, even more powers than the local cop. :dunno:

Beats writing citations for traffic offenses I think :supergrin:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

dpadams6
06-24-2012, 18:41
Cover your **** up! If you want to show how tough and bad ass you are by displaying, in public, a loaded firearm on your hip become a LEO and try wearing the uniform awhile.

Concealed carrying works to your benefit for many reasons.
It's interesting that the guys who like to flaunt their machismo via open "look at me" carry are never LEO or from a military specialized unit such as Rangers or SEALs.

Agreed. There is no advantage whatsoever. Only 2 reasons I can see. You Want to show what a bad***** you are and want to just mess with the system/police because "its the law and my constitutional right dam# it" just like the guy walking down the street with a rifle in Birmingham mi. Its more than obvious why he did it.

dpadams6
06-24-2012, 18:44
You say this like it's a fact, it's not. I have friends that are Army vets and now Federal Officers that do indeed OC everywhere they go off duty. They rarely cover it.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

That's amazing that a federal officer would do such a thing. Goes against everything they have been trained. They are not using their common sense if what your saying is in fact true.

vettely
06-24-2012, 19:11
Hmm, so BP and Customs are somehow not on the level of Police now :yawn:? They have a badge, a gun, and same arrest powers, in fact, even more powers than the local cop. :dunno:

Beats writing citations for traffic offenses I think :supergrin:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Umm, you need to read your states Code of Criminal Procedure (CCP).

Texas CCP:

Art. 2.122. SPECIAL INVESTIGATORS.
*
Text of subsection as amended by Acts 2011, 82nd Leg., R.S., Ch. 1223, Sec. 1

(a)**The following named criminal investigators of the United States shall not be deemed peace officers but shall have the powers of arrest, search, and seizure under the laws of this state as to felony offenses only:
(1)**Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation;
(2)**Special Agents of the Secret Service;
(3)**Special Agents of the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement;
(4)**Special Agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives;
(5)**Special Agents of the United States Drug Enforcement Administration;
(6)**Inspectors of the United States Postal Inspection Service;
(7)**Special Agents of the Criminal Investigation Division of the Internal Revenue Service;
(8)**Civilian Special Agents of the United States Naval Criminal Investigative Service;
(9)**Marshals and Deputy Marshals of the United States Marshals Service;
(10)** Special Agents of the United States Department of State, Bureau of Diplomatic Security;
(11)**Special Agents of the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration; and
(12)**Special Agents of the Office of Inspector General of the United States Social Security Administration.
====================
I'm sorry, but enforcing immigration and customs laws is not my cup of tea.

kenpoprofessor
06-24-2012, 19:32
That's amazing that a federal officer would do such a thing. Goes against everything they have been trained. They are not using their common sense if what your saying is in fact true.

They at least know the difference between YOU'RE and your :wavey:.

And why is it so amazing, they are citizens, know the risks and rewards of their behavior? They express their rights the same as any other citizen, and they can fly armed (concealed there).

To be honest, so many people here are so worried about what other people are doing it's scary. Most of the ones who advocate "concealed only by god" are no better than the Democrats who call the police because they're scared or offended.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Cavalry Doc
06-25-2012, 04:25
If you have a choice, OC or CC, you can look for attention, or CC. Unless CC is uncomforrable for some reason, why not?

I support OC laws. Just can't figure out why you would want to if there was a choice.


Been CCW for years, never had to talk to anyone about it, ever.

Misty02
06-25-2012, 04:39
If you have a choice, OC or CC, you can look for attention, or CC. Unless CC is uncomforrable for some reason, why not?

I support OC laws. Just can't figure out why you would want to if there was a choice.


Been CCW for years, never had to talk to anyone about it, ever.

Perhaps because there is indeed a choice? What good is having a choice if you can’t select it?

That is like telling me, you can have the red shoes but you can’t wear the red shoes. Why in heavens name would you give me the red shoes if I can’t wear them?

OC is not legal in Florida, even if it was; it’s not my cup of tea. I just wish some of the individuals that elect to OC weren’t so “on your face” about it, absent that I would see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Even in cases when an officer may not be familiar with the law there should be a polite way to provide it to them, if the civilized way doesn’t work, then comply and bring it up to the appropriate supervisors. In lieu of an apology, request further training and dissemination of the applicable laws.


.

Bren
06-25-2012, 04:40
BP I'm guessing....

I know several BOP guys and none of them even carry guns off duty, that I've ever noticed. Considering the training and policies and culture of federal LE, I'd be very surprised to see anybody from any federal agency OC. I've had ATF and secret service agents in my family and know people from many other agencies and they'd probably go unarmed before they'd OC - which is about the choice as I view it too. I decide whether to carry concealed or not carry at all, OC isn't even an option I consider.

Mayhem like Me
06-25-2012, 04:57
Hmm, so BP and Customs are somehow not on the level of Police now :yawn:? They have a badge, a gun, and same arrest powers, in fact, even more powers than the local cop. :dunno:

Beats writing citations for traffic offenses I think :supergrin:

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

Your words not mine.
I based my guess on your previous posts.

Have a great jumping to conclusion no clue day...

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Cavalry Doc
06-25-2012, 05:32
Perhaps because there is indeed a choice? What good is having a choice if you can’t select it?

That is like telling me, you can have the red shoes but you can’t wear the red shoes. Why in heavens name would you give me the red shoes if I can’t wear them?

OC is not legal in Florida, even if it was; it’s not my cup of tea. I just wish some of the individuals that elect to OC weren’t so “on your face” about it, absent that I would see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Even in cases when an officer may not be familiar with the law there should be a polite way to provide it to them, if the civilized way doesn’t work, then comply and bring it up to the appropriate supervisors. In lieu of an apology, request further training and dissemination of the applicable laws.


.

I don't have a problem if people want to, I just can't think of any reasons I would want too. I can wear a mayonaise and fig leaf suit if I want to, as long as it covers all the important areas, but I haven't found a reason to want to do that yet. Not that OC is as silly as that, it's not. I just think it's an attention getter.

But to each his own I guess. I haven't seen many of these videos with CCW though.

SouthernBoyVA
06-25-2012, 06:10
My own personal opinion about open vs concealed carry is that I celebrate both modes for obvious reasons. I want good citizens to go about armed and their chosen method, as far as I'm concerned, is their business. I support both modes because I am a Virginian and an American. I see no difference in how someone carries their firearm. I just want them to carry.

I do get a little sick and tired of the in-fighting and arguing among some in our ranks about the method of carry because I see this as something the anti's love to have happening. Those who argue incessantly about this are feeding the anti's position. If I was solely devoted to concealed carry, and I used to be, I would still support open carriers 100% because we are all on the same side. The fact is, most of the time I do open carry and I have very good reasons for doing this, none of which have anything to do with trying to get attention or acting macho (as a few have stated). I do conceal when I deem it to be in my better interests at some specific time or place. I just have no problem doing either or for others doing either. And one other thing.

I have yet to hear an open carry advocate admonish or belittle someone who carries concealed, but I have heard and read a lot of concealed carriers doing this to those who open carry. It's quite clear to see where the biases are with this. That should tell you something.

So come on people, support both modes. Yes there are jerks in the carry movement and they exist on both sides of this issue. I have yet to run into anyone OC'ing and I have been around well over 1000 of them in one crowd a few years ago, who was acting like a jerk. I go to lunches with them (and yes one or two do CC), go shooting with them, and see them in gun shops and other places. I also have friends who just prefer to CC and that is great in my opinion. Like I said, I fully support both modes of carry.

For those of you who chose not to OC, that's fine. Just don't crawl all over others who do. Stop and think about it. To outsiders looking in who don't want anyone carrying, this is food for their cause.

RussP
06-25-2012, 07:04
They at least know the difference between YOU'RE and your :wavey:.You know what? That is so completely and absolutely unnecessary. It detracts from and diminishes the importance of anything that follows.And why is it so amazing, they are citizens, know the risks and rewards of their behavior. They express their rights the same as any other citizen, and they can fly armed (concealed there).Why? Because it is so unique for those in law enforcement to open carry. Yes, some do open carry when off duty. I have read their posts on other forums. Usually, those I read are less than 5 years on the job. Others are in Corrections and believe their chances of encountering a previous resident of their facility are slim.To be honest, so many people here are so worried about what other people are doing it's scary.Do you include yourself, seeing you are so concerned about others' behavior?Most of the ones who advocate "concealed only by god" are no better than the Democrats who call the police because they're scared or offended.Nice insult, however the big difference is one group carries and is generally pro-2nd Amendment, the other group doesn't and isn't.

Misty02
06-25-2012, 07:19
I don't have a problem if people want to, I just can't think of any reasons I would want too. I can wear a mayonaise and fig leaf suit if I want to, as long as it covers all the important areas, but I haven't found a reason to want to do that yet. Not that OC is as silly as that, it's not. I just think it's an attention getter.

But to each his own I guess. I haven't seen many of these videos with CCW though.

I knew what you meant :embarassed: and it is not for me either.

.

Kevin108
06-25-2012, 07:29
Agreed. There is no advantage whatsoever. Only 2 reasons I can see. You Want to show what a bad***** you are and want to just mess with the system/police

Have you ever been around an OCer besides internet forums? I challenge you to look up a video of Phillip Van Cleave, President of the VCDL. He is an intelligent, soft-spoken gentleman. Watch his demeanor and body language. Listen to the way he speaks.

I'm sure you have good reasons for thinking what you do but virtually all OCers I know behave and carry themselves like Mr. Van Cleave while almost none I've met fit your description. I'm not saying that such people don't exist but the evidence I've seen suggests that the aggro-loudmouths are severely in the minority.

dpadams6
06-25-2012, 07:33
Perhaps because there is indeed a choice? What good is having a choice if you can’t select it?

That is like telling me, you can have the red shoes but you can’t wear the red shoes. Why in heavens name would you give me the red shoes if I can’t wear them?

OC is not legal in Florida, even if it was; it’s not my cup of tea. I just wish some of the individuals that elect to OC weren’t so “on your face” about it, absent that I would see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Even in cases when an officer may not be familiar with the law there should be a polite way to provide it to them, if the civilized way doesn’t work, then comply and bring it up to the appropriate supervisors. In lieu of an apology, request further training and dissemination of the applicable laws.


.

I have yet to hear one good reason here why someone would choose to oc if they can ccw. And I don't want to hear because I can and it's my constitutional right. Just asking for one sound reason why it would be to your advantage. Other than hunting in woods.

dpadams6
06-25-2012, 07:37
Have you ever been around an OCer besides internet forums? I challenge you to look up a video of Phillip Van Cleave, President of the VCDL. He is an intelligent, soft-spoken gentleman. Watch his demeanor and body language. Listen to the way he speaks.

I'm sure you have good reasons for thinking what you do but virtually all OCers I know behave and carry themselves like Mr. Van Cleave while almost none I've met fit your description. I'm not saying that such people don't exist but the evidence I've seen suggests that the aggro-loudmouths are severely in the minority.

I could see maybe if they can't ccw for what ever reason. But to choose that over ccw is really not sound tactics and you totally put yourself at disadvantage. If the shtf, who would not want every advantage possible?

RussP
06-25-2012, 07:49
Perhaps because there is indeed a choice? What good is having a choice if you can’t select it?Exactly.That is like telling me, you can have the red shoes but you can’t wear the red shoes. Why in heavens name would you give me the red shoes if I can’t wear them?You may wear the red shoes, but only within your own home. OC is not legal in Florida, even if it was; it’s not my cup of tea. I just wish some of the individuals that elect to OC weren’t so “on your face” about it, absent that I would see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Even in cases when an officer may not be familiar with the law there should be a polite way to provide it to them, if the civilized way doesn’t work, then comply and bring it up to the appropriate supervisors. In lieu of an apology, request further training and dissemination of the applicable laws.


.Aggressive open carry is now a subculture of the carrying population. A certain element of those engaging in demonstrative open carry has progressed from legitimate protests against no concealed carry law, for preemption, against oppressive law enforcement to "YouTube 15-minutes of fame" seekers. The "fame seekers" are few, but their numbers are growing as you can see on the YouTube site.

Are there still valid needs for organized OC protest events? Unfortunately, yes, there are.

There are also more and more social events where open carry is welcome. They have been around for years. They use to get more attention, but people have gotten use to seeing fellow citizens armed and it is no big deal - in most areas - unless, say, someone shows up with an AR slung on their back. That got a little more attention.

The 'normalcy' of open carry varies from state to state, region to region, city to city, even neighborhood to neighborhood. The good thing, to some, is that there is some degree of normalcy in some areas.

RussP
06-25-2012, 07:53
Have you ever been around an OCer besides internet forums? I challenge you to look up a video of Phillip Van Cleave, President of the VCDL. He is an intelligent, soft-spoken gentleman. Watch his demeanor and body language. Listen to the way he speaks.

I'm sure you have good reasons for thinking what you do but virtually all OCers I know behave and carry themselves like Mr. Van Cleave while almost none I've met fit your description. I'm not saying that such people don't exist but the evidence I've seen suggests that the aggro-loudmouths are severely in the minority.Good post.

valvestem
06-25-2012, 07:54
kudos to the "stopper" for keeping his cool and not escalating the situation, and the "carrier" for the same reason, and his ability to defend himself in the street encounter with verbage. And to the supervisor who realized the carrier was fully aware of his rights.

Jon_R
06-25-2012, 08:00
I have yet to hear one good reason here why someone would choose to oc if they can ccw. And I don't want to hear because I can and it's my constitutional right. Just asking for one sound reason why it would be to your advantage. Other than hunting in woods.

Less layers of clothing in the FL summer

Everything being equal you can draw an unconcealed firearm faster then a concealed one

Without concern over concealment and printing you can carry a more capable firearm easier

It allows more options for attire. I still have not found a way to carry effectively and comfortably in dockers and tucked in button up shirt. Open carry would make that easy to solve. Currently pocket holster LCR but a G23 in a belt holster would be better if I was allowed to vs. being infringed.

Cavalry Doc
06-25-2012, 08:57
Less layers of clothing in the FL summer

Everything being equal you can draw an unconcealed firearm faster then a concealed one

Without concern over concealment and printing you can carry a more capable firearm easier

It allows more options for attire. I still have not found a way to carry effectively and comfortably in dockers and tucked in button up shirt. Open carry would make that easy to solve. Currently pocket holster LCR but a G23 in a belt holster would be better if I was allowed to vs. being infringed.

I carry a g23 and a spare mag year round in tx, in a ctac Minotaur. When I have to wear shirt and tie, LCR in a wallet holster in right hip pocket. It's not a choice here, if it was, I've already said what I prefer. Others get to choose too.

The big decision is to have a gun, kudos to all the good guys that Mede that choice. The rest are really just details.

RussP
06-25-2012, 08:59
Agreed. There is no advantage whatsoever. Only 2 reasons I can see. You Want to show what a bad***** you are and want to just mess with the system/policeAre you saying those would be your only two reasons for open carrying?I have yet to hear one good reason here why someone would choose to oc if they can ccw. And I don't want to hear because I can and it's my constitutional right. Just asking for one sound reason why it would be to your advantage. Other than hunting in woods.First, just in case you are not familiar with my open carry philosophy, I open carry only when and where appropriate, acknowledging that the when and where differs from person to person. Open carry is absolutely not for everyone and not everyone should open carry. In fact, there are some that should never open carry. Concealed carry fits them best.

I began open carrying immediately upon receiving my Virginia Concealed Handgun Permit. See, we had a law back then against concealed carry in restaurants serving alcohol. Open carry was not prohibited. As you crossed the threshold into the establishment, you uncovered your firearm. That was late fall and through winter.

When spring came, I was use to OCing and as the weather warmed, I just continued OCing, when and where I deemed appropriate. Now, 10 years later, I carry concealed IWB sometimes, openly IWB and OWB other times. Why? It's more comfortable carrying without a cover garment in warm weather and it is definitely more comfortable carrying OWB.

Yes, I know that carrying is meant to be comforting, not comfortable. I choose to have both, myself.

The other reason is in the Commonwealth of Virginia, and more specifically in my area, open carry is generally accepted.I could see maybe if they can't ccw for what ever reason. But to choose that over ccw is really not sound tactics and you totally put yourself at disadvantage. If the shtf, who would not want every advantage possible?Well, dpadams6, I practice what I preach and do not put myself in places at times where I believe the stuff will hit the fan. No, I am not clairvoyant.

I do have a few decades of experience avoiding trouble. I read and listen to many factual stories about people getting into trouble and take from them how not to make the same mistakes. I have friends who study those cases in much more detail that I call on for advice. I have friends in law enforcement I use for the same purpose - why people get into the situations they do. Then, I do my best to avoid those situations.

Yes, crime is very mobile and unpredictable, and there are criminals thinking of new ways, places and times to practice their criminal actions at this moment. Where I live now, I have my resources that keep me informed of trends in criminal activity - where it is happening, where it is headed.

The last piece of my open carry/concealed carry formula is when I'm out and about, I expect the unexpected to happen. Example: I am driving and approach a traffic light controlled intersection. I look for the idiot who is going to run the red light. It isn't a conscious act/process anymore. It is just what I do after 50-years of driving. This falls under situational awareness, doesn't it?

I also believe in the theory that a bad guy only has to be right once to attack. I have to be right 100% of the time to avoid the bad guy.

Do I want anyone to carry exactly as I do? No, hell no. Do I want them to adopt my philosophy and apply it to their lives? Sure, as long as they take the totality of their unique circumstances into consideration when making their decisions.

The 2nd Amendment says no one can tell us we cannot carry and defend ourselves. It also does not say anything about whether one method of carry is better than another for everyone or anyone. Let's respect what it does say...

Misty02
06-25-2012, 09:07
I have yet to hear one good reason here why someone would choose to oc if they can ccw. And I don't want to hear because I can and it's my constitutional right. Just asking for one sound reason why it would be to your advantage. Other than hunting in woods.

Some do it because it is not legal for them to CC (age). Some do it because OC is allowed in their state without having to pay a hefty fee for the privilege to carry (either OC or CC), some do it due to physical limitations, some do it because it gives them an opportunity to politely discuss firearms with other interested parties, some do it because they have the choice. The possible reasons are many, more that those I could come up without giving it much thought. Our question for doing it should be just one: (1) Is it legal where you live?

.

SouthernBoyVA
06-25-2012, 09:09
I have yet to hear one good reason here why someone would choose to oc if they can ccw. And I don't want to hear because I can and it's my constitutional right. Just asking for one sound reason why it would be to your advantage. Other than hunting in woods.

Well the nice thing about living in Virginia is that you owe no one any reason or explanations for OC'ing. Since this is the mode that is the "normal" mode of carry here (read that as the standard or default mode), no explanation is required.

I will offer that my reasons are good and valid for me, and that is really all that matters, and I will tell you what they are. I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees (getting a total knee replacement in October) and because of this condition, I am no longer able to run from a situation or fight as I was once capable of doing. My visible sidearm acts as a warning to those who may be of a mind to do me evil that perhaps they would be better served to pick another victim. Am I right about this? I don't know, but my position is to err on the side of what I believe to be my best interests.

Again, I fully and completely support both modes of carry and would hope the avid CC'ers would return the favor.

Jon_R
06-25-2012, 09:11
I carry a g23 and a spare mag year round in tx, in a ctac Minotaur. When I have to wear shirt and tie, LCR in a wallet holster in right hip pocket. It's not a choice here, if it was, I've already said what I prefer. Others get to choose too.

The big decision is to have a gun, kudos to all the good guys that Mede that choice. The rest are really just details.

Sure you can work around it but I hope we are not cool with the infringement on the 2nd amendment because at least the state allows us some workarounds. That does not sound like a good position on the issue.

I carry in the heat of summer when not working in shorts, un-tucked tshirt, and m-tac M&P or G23 shirt un-tucked though i prefer to tuck my shirt in unless I am doing manual labor.

Misty02
06-25-2012, 09:12
Exactly.You may wear the red shoes, but only within your own home. Aggressive open carry is now a subculture of the carrying population. A certain element of those engaging in demonstrative open carry has progressed from legitimate protests against no concealed carry law, for preemption, against oppressive law enforcement to "YouTube 15-minutes of fame" seekers. The "fame seekers" are few, but their numbers are growing as you can see on the YouTube site.

Are there still valid needs for organized OC protest events? Unfortunately, yes, there are.

There are also more and more social events where open carry is welcome. They have been around for years. They use to get more attention, but people have gotten use to seeing fellow citizens armed and it is no big deal - in most areas - unless, say, someone shows up with an AR slung on their back. That got a little more attention.

The 'normalcy' of open carry varies from state to state, region to region, city to city, even neighborhood to neighborhood. The good thing, to some, is that there is some degree of normalcy in some areas.

and is there a way to get to “normalcy” if the practice and exposure is suppressed? (the right way, of course).

.

SouthernBoyVA
06-25-2012, 09:12
Have you ever been around an OCer besides internet forums? I challenge you to look up a video of Phillip Van Cleave, President of the VCDL. He is an intelligent, soft-spoken gentleman. Watch his demeanor and body language. Listen to the way he speaks.

I'm sure you have good reasons for thinking what you do but virtually all OCers I know behave and carry themselves like Mr. Van Cleave while almost none I've met fit your description. I'm not saying that such people don't exist but the evidence I've seen suggests that the aggro-loudmouths are severely in the minority.

Yep and in my case, I have yet to meet an obnoxious OC'er who is in the habit of making an ass of himself. I am a member of VCDL and have been in Mr. Van Cleave's presence a number of times. He is a gentleman.

I agree with your post.

Misty02
06-25-2012, 09:16
kudos to the "stopper" for keeping his cool and not escalating the situation, and the "carrier" for the same reason, and his ability to defend himself in the street encounter with verbage. And to the supervisor who realized the carrier was fully aware of his rights.

Between us here, and this is strictly my own personal opinion, this is not the kind of encounter I find acceptable. This is the kind of encounter I find irritating, and an individual to whom I would not offer my full support.

.

RussP
06-25-2012, 09:51
and is there a way to get to “normalcy” if the practice and exposure is suppressed? (the right way, of course).

.Suppressed, no, but, BUT, when only the most scintillating events make the news, or YouTube, how is normalcy achieved? What is normal open carry?

Some will say, "It isn't about open carry, it is about showing police/.gov abusing my Rights!" In some cases, yes, that is unfortunately true. Shining the same "normalcy" spotlight on the police, are these incidents on YouTube the norm or the exceptions?

redbaron007
06-25-2012, 09:57
Cover your **** up! If you want to show how tough and bad ass you are by displaying, in public, a loaded firearm on your hip become a LEO and try wearing the uniform awhile.

Concealed carrying works to your benefit for many reasons.
It's interesting that the guys who like to flaunt their machismo via open "look at me" carry are never LEO or from a military specialized unit such as Rangers or SEALs.

:faint: :dunno: Geesh! Nothing else to say.

Agreed. There is no advantage whatsoever. Only 2 reasons I can see. You Want to show what a bad***** you are and want to just mess with the system/police because "its the law and my constitutional right dam# it" just like the guy walking down the street with a rifle in Birmingham mi. Its more than obvious why he did it.

Repeat from above. Geesh!



I have yet to hear one good reason here why someone would choose to oc if they can ccw. And I don't want to hear because I can and it's my constitutional right. Just asking for one sound reason why it would be to your advantage. Other than hunting in woods.

It's not up to you to make that determination if its a 'good reason'. If it's legal, why do they have to clear it through you? Why can't someone OC if it is legal, aside from the fact you just don't care for it? For me, OC is many times easier to do.

Some do it because it is not legal for them to CC (age). Some do it because OC is allowed in their state without having to pay a hefty fee for the privilege to carry (either OC or CC), some do it due to physical limitations, some do it because it gives them an opportunity to politely discuss firearms with other interested parties, some do it because they have the choice. The possible reasons are many, more that those I could come up without giving it much thought. Our question for doing it should be just one: (1) Is it legal where you live?

.

Very good summary Misty02! :thumbsup:

OC is a personal preference; if it is legal. I know many CCWers who refuse to OC....that's fine and they are fine with me OCing. The unfortunate few that admonish those who do OC, where legal, just baffles me. Why do you have to tell me to NOT do something that is legal? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the world has to conform to your thoughts/wishes. And if you do, you will be disappointed frequently.

For those who do not OC; that is fine. I don't begrudge anyone who chooses to not OC...it's their choice. In the flip, I don't admonish those who CCW and not OC.

But what does concern me is the narrow thought process several on here have towards OC. If you don't like it, that's fine and it's fine to vocalize it; however, criticizing someone just because they want to do something legal and you don't, isn't wrong......for those who don't think it is appropriate just because they don't like it....sorry. :crying:

It boils down to this, if you want to drive a Pink car....and it's legal.....go for it. I'm not going to tell you to NOT buy it; but I may say it is not something I would purchase...I don't look good in pink! :rofl:

:wavey:

red

Kevin108
06-25-2012, 11:20
I have yet to hear one good reason here why someone would choose to oc if they can ccw. And I don't want to hear because I can and it's my constitutional right. Just asking for one sound reason why it would be to your advantage. Other than hunting in woods.

Here in VA OC is free while CC requires a training course, paperwork, and processing fees. I spent over $100 and a full work day's time to get everything straight and the court still took over the 45 day maximum to get my permit ready. Making CC an option that requires government permission to exercise your rights is a show-stopper for many. Add into that the training costs, time and fees an OC looks like a far more practical method of carry.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Kevin108
06-25-2012, 11:24
I could see maybe if they can't ccw for what ever reason. But to choose that over ccw is really not sound tactics and you totally put yourself at disadvantage. If the shtf, who would not want every advantage possible?

Visibly armed police and other security personnel are virtually never robbed or accosted off the job. Why do you think that is? A visible deterrent is in fact a sound tactic. Do you have a sign for an alarm company or BEWARE OF DOG in your yard? Same premise. There are clearly easier targets and criminals choose accordingly.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

DScottHewitt
06-25-2012, 12:11
This is GT member boyscout399.

Please abide by all the GT rules when discussing his encounter...

Russ, I just started a thread on this. Sorry.



I should have read this first.



Seems like the gentleman has been stopped several times in a few years for exercising his rights. So he decided to film it, this time.

beatcop
06-25-2012, 12:17
Visibly armed police and other security personnel are virtually never robbed or accosted off the job. Why do you think that is? A visible deterrent is in fact a sound tactic.

There's also an awareness that the police WILL actually use force, whereas an armed citizen may be an unknown...and perhaps make a good firearm donor.

NDCent
06-25-2012, 15:07
It makes my heart smile to see the gentlemen in the video use such proper decorum when defending his right to OC without question or concern of others. :upeyes:

Jon_R
06-25-2012, 15:19
There's also an awareness that the police WILL actually use force, whereas an armed citizen may be an unknown...and perhaps make a good firearm donor.

I don't know the officer is probably more encumbered by restraint then a non officer. The non officer just needs to worry about the laws of the state. The officer has laws, policies and procedures of the department, possible loss of paycheck that feeds his family, risk loss of pension, any "unofficial" policies and procedures the politicians (mayor/chief) cares about, media, cop bashers, etc...

My decisions are pretty simple. If I am reasonable and somewhere I am allowed to be then just fear of death or serious bodily harm is my only criteria.

Gunnut 45/454
06-25-2012, 15:43
Great video, shows the OP is well informed of the applicable laws where he carries! The officer was professional, yet uninformed as to the laws which applied. He now knows what is legal and what is not. I see it as a win,win situation. LEO's are people to and do make mistakes -just like us normal folks. It's our responsibility to know the laws where we carry. Just like it's the LEO's responsibility to know when it legal to detain or arrest! :supergrin: Maybe that Cheif needs to do a public service announcement to inform the PUBLIC that OC is legal and they can be charged with a crime for reporting NON CRIMMINAL ACTIVITY!

SouthernBoyVA
06-25-2012, 16:08
Great video, shows the OP is well informed of the applicable laws where he carries! The officer was professional, yet uninformed as to the laws which applied. He now knows what is legal and what is not. I see it as a win,win situation. LEO's are people to and do make mistakes -just like us normal folks. It's our responsibility to know the laws where we carry. Just like it's the LEO's responsibility to know when it legal to detain or arrest! :supergrin: Maybe that Cheif needs to do a public service announcement to inform the PUBLIC that OC is legal and they can be charged with a crime for reporting NON CRIMMINAL ACTIVITY!

Educating the police is a good thing. The problem with the ones who make mistakes is that their mistakes tend to cost citizens time and money.... and hopefully nothing more.

Many Americans have forgotten who owns the government and all of its agencies. The police work for us and are where they are because of us, to enforce the laws we have authorize our representatives to pass (remember, that's how it is suppose to work). Unfortunately many police departments and many Americans have forgotten these simple facts.

I have never had a negative encounter with an officer in my state in the entire time I have carried open and concealed. And I have approached them in cars and on foot with my handgun in full view, been in their precinct buildings while openly carrying, passed them in parking lots, stores, and a host of other places. Never a negative comment or anything out of the ordinary. Guess the ones in my neck of the woods are a lot different than a number of the ones we see and hear of in reports and on YouTube.

Cavalry Doc
06-25-2012, 18:35
Sure you can work around it but I hope we are not cool with the infringement on the 2nd amendment because at least the state allows us some workarounds. That does not sound like a good position on the issue.

I carry in the heat of summer when not working in shorts, un-tucked tshirt, and m-tac M&P or G23 shirt un-tucked though i prefer to tuck my shirt in unless I am doing manual labor.


Hidden is better than out in the open, at least as far as I am concerned.

I've been on patrol many times with crew served weapons openly displayed, but I'm home now. I don't see any added security to openly announcing that I am armed here.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. Do what you want, but if it's an option, I've already given my best recommendation.

vettely
06-25-2012, 18:49
By Massad Ayoob, a man worth listening to.
The 10 commandments:

1. If you carry, always carry. The tool does no good if it is sitting at home. You cannot predict when evil will need to be faced down. Commit to your self to always carry.
2. Don’t carry if you are not prepared to use it. Predators sense your willingness or fear. A number of studies show that the criminal facing a prepared and willing defender often departs the situation with no shots fired by the defender. The deterrent factor is the bad guy not knowing who can fight back. Ayoob notes the irony of the person who is prepared to shoot if necessary is less likely to have to. The confidence exhibited by a prepared, aware person puts off the criminal’s attack. Bad guys read body language and can pick out the sheeple (food). Be the sheepdog!
3. Don’t’ let the gun make you reckless. Contrary to what anti self-defense people believe, the gun does not pull the trigger. If anything it is a constant reminder of danger and causes the holder to be more cautious. The “higher standard of care” permit holders are held to, demands an expectation to avoid situations and locations that could escalate into a confrontation. Don’t go looking for trouble, but realize it can appear anytime and anywhere.
4. Get the license. About 48 of the fifty states in the U.S. have some form of permit system. Until ALL states recognize that the rights of self-defense existed BEFORE the government and do away with permits, use the system. Work for good change, study and be aware of the laws in each area as state laws vary. If your permit has recognition or reciprocity with other states, learn and follow the laws. If possible get more than one permit. If you choose to carry, do it legally.
5. Know what you are doing. The key here is “learn the rules of the road.” Check your sources regarding laws, use of force, rules of engagement and get competent instruction and on-going training. Many times in classes or training I witness people who can’t perform under just peer pressure, let alone deadly threat. Learn, do and practice regularly. That is your responsibility.
6. Concealed means concealed. Don’t fall for the first-time gun carrier urge to let everyone know “you got the power!” Depending on where you live, it could be a crime to “show your piece”, while elsewhere, open-carry is allowed. In my state there is no prohibition from carrying openly and loaded with a concealed permit. Yes, you can, but is it prudent? Should you try to “scare the horses” or keep it out of sight? In my area most in law enforcement do NOT know open carry is allowed and practitioners find themselves being stopped and questioned, even harassed by police because someone felt uncomfortable when they saw the gun. Better to keep it hidden and avoid the hassle and avoid losing your advantage during a bad situation. It takes planning, practice and training to do it right. Take the time to do it well.
7. Maximize your firearms familiarity. “The more you work with the chosen firearm, the more reflexively skilled you become in it’s emergency use and safe handling,” says Mr. Ayoob in a recent article, “Use the same action type for practice and competition.” Avail yourself of training and competitions to increase your skill level with your chosen tool of defense. You will not have time in the middle of a confrontation to learn how to run the gun! If ammunition prices are a factor due to budget constraints, consider a smaller caliber version of your self- defense gun. Rim-fire conversions for semi-auto handguns or a .22 version of your revolver, can give you inexpensive practice with skills that transfer to the larger caliber handgun. Dry practice hones a lot of skills without the expense of firing the ammunition. Just remember to do it safely.
8. Understand the fine points. You are responsible to know the details of carry laws in your state. Some states allow signs to be posted and no guns are allowed. Other states have signs posted but they have no force in law. Where I live, signs have no force in law, unless that location is listed as a Federal or State prohibited area. You also could be arrested for an infraction trespass violation in certain places, if you don’t leave when asked…after your gun is seen. Some states allow carry into bars, others it is not allowed. Check a credible source and never assume or go by what someone said they heard when it comes to the finer points of carrying.
9. Carry an adequate firearm. Experts recommend a minimum 38 S&W Special or 380 ACP as a starting point. Carry spare ammunition and consider a second or back-up gun. No, you are not paranoid, you are a conscientious, safety minded individual who has a clear view of reality. Any one else is suffering from a form mental illness called denial, a condition that could be fatal in some circumstances. I’ve heard it said that “one is none, two is one” by Clint Smith who trains at Thunder Ranch, Oregon and Phil Engeldrum, a very experienced expert said, “if you need to carry a gun, you probably need to carry two of them.” If your gun is taken as evidence after a self-defense confrontation, you made need a second, similar firearm so you can protect yourself from the “vengeful cronies of the criminal you were forced to shoot,” according to Ayoob. This also holds for a tool in for repair. Have a back-up or spare just in case.
10. Use common sense. Recognize the power and responsibility the gun represents. It belongs only in the hands of a person responsible enough to know and care about consequences, who cares about the safety of others, and respects human life. With many more Americans able to carry the means of defense, common sense needs a revival. It short, don’t do stupid things! Use you ability to think, plan, practice, avoid, and if needed, defend. Do it correctly and within the law.
While these are called “Commandments,” I think you can see the necessity and common sense distilled here. Review them frequently, just as you would the “other” commandments. It sure makes life a lot less complicated. Be safe and aware. The life you save will be your own or that of someone you love

Jon_R
06-25-2012, 19:47
Hidden is better than out in the open, at least as far as I am concerned.

I've been on patrol many times with crew served weapons openly displayed, but I'm home now. I don't see any added security to openly announcing that I am armed here.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. Do what you want, but if it's an option, I've already given my best recommendation.

I am not saying concealed is not "better" but open should not be a crime. In my state it is. You can be arrested and stand trial for it. You right to bear arms requires you wear that 5-11 tactical vest. Choose not to wear it and the state can take your freedom and your property... BTW I guess that is not an infringement....

I have never open carried outside of the range, on my property, and hunting but against the law... Even for someone with a state issued CWP.... Just silly.

Rancho_Nirvana
06-25-2012, 21:35
Boyscout399 is a stud in my book.

The guy is out there asserting his rights, taking the initiative when confronted, and hey, nothings perfect, I can sense he is learning the ropes, tackling things as they come, but in time he will master the art of the deal.

Keep up the good works Boyscout!

wjv
06-25-2012, 22:37
TN law states that:


So in the case of the video, if this guy was in TN he would be in violation of the law for not providing his permit/ID and the officer would not need any cause for the stop?

But in his State it:

- Is not required to possess a permit for open carry

- Not required to produce a permit for open carry

- Not required to produce ID on demand when no suspicion of criminal activity can be demonstrated

He was 100% legal, and his refusals were 100% legal in his State.

Misty02
06-26-2012, 04:50
Suppressed, no, but, BUT, when only the most scintillating events make the news, or YouTube, how is normalcy achieved? What is normal open carry?

Some will say, "It isn't about open carry, it is about showing police/.gov abusing my Rights!" In some cases, yes, that is unfortunately true. Shining the same "normalcy" spotlight on the police, are these incidents on YouTube the norm or the exceptions?

Personally, I believe those videos represent the exception rather the rule. However, as with everything, those that are loudest get noticed most. Since you notice them more, they are appear to be greater in numbers, but that is not often the case.

To me, achieving “normalcy” would be getting to a time where people are more used to it. It doesn’t necessarily mean others will like it or embrace it; just that it would be more accepted as something that is. There are many things we see today that would have alarmed us a few decades ago yet we’ve gotten kind of used to those sights and dismiss them with greater ease. On the other hand, just because it has become “normal” it doesn’t’ mean I like them or have embraced it.

.

Misty02
06-26-2012, 04:59
Here in VA OC is free while CC requires a training course, paperwork, and processing fees. I spent over $100 and a full work day's time to get everything straight and the court still took over the 45 day maximum to get my permit ready. Making CC an option that requires government permission to exercise your rights is a show-stopper for many. Add into that the training costs, time and fees an OC looks like a far more practical method of carry.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

I don’t mind spending the money on the training, that is something that benefits everyone. I can’t say the same about the cost of the license. I’ve spent way more than10 times the cost of the license in training; every single penny was worth spending. The $117 cost for the license itself royally ticked me off. That is of absolutely no benefit to anyone; well, other than to those involved in processing such licenses as it represents their salaries.

.

Misty02
06-26-2012, 05:10
There's also an awareness that the police WILL actually use force, whereas an armed citizen may be an unknown...and perhaps make a good firearm donor.

I will concede to that. Additionally, when an officer is involved, the possibility of getting more armed members of their pack on site quickly is one heck of a deterrent. As armed citizens we don’t have that on our side. Every BG knows that there could be more armed officers there in the blink of an eye.

.

Misty02
06-26-2012, 05:16
It makes my heart smile to see the gentlemen in the video use such proper decorum when defending his right to OC without question or concern of others. :upeyes:

What did he do in that particular video that would endanger any others? I’m the first to comment that those kinds of videos usually irritate me but other than that, in this particular case, the gentleman didn’t risk his safety, the safety of the public or the safety of the officer. There have been others where that wasn’t the case, but all aren’t the same.

.

dpadams6
06-26-2012, 07:46
By Massad Ayoob, a man worth listening to.
The 10 commandments:

1. If you carry, always carry. The tool does no good if it is sitting at home. You cannot predict when evil will need to be faced down. Commit to your self to always carry.
2. Don’t carry if you are not prepared to use it. Predators sense your willingness or fear. A number of studies show that the criminal facing a prepared and willing defender often departs the situation with no shots fired by the defender. The deterrent factor is the bad guy not knowing who can fight back. Ayoob notes the irony of the person who is prepared to shoot if necessary is less likely to have to. The confidence exhibited by a prepared, aware person puts off the criminal’s attack. Bad guys read body language and can pick out the sheeple (food). Be the sheepdog!
3. Don’t’ let the gun make you reckless. Contrary to what anti self-defense people believe, the gun does not pull the trigger. If anything it is a constant reminder of danger and causes the holder to be more cautious. The “higher standard of care” permit holders are held to, demands an expectation to avoid situations and locations that could escalate into a confrontation. Don’t go looking for trouble, but realize it can appear anytime and anywhere.
4. Get the license. About 48 of the fifty states in the U.S. have some form of permit system. Until ALL states recognize that the rights of self-defense existed BEFORE the government and do away with permits, use the system. Work for good change, study and be aware of the laws in each area as state laws vary. If your permit has recognition or reciprocity with other states, learn and follow the laws. If possible get more than one permit. If you choose to carry, do it legally.
5. Know what you are doing. The key here is “learn the rules of the road.” Check your sources regarding laws, use of force, rules of engagement and get competent instruction and on-going training. Many times in classes or training I witness people who can’t perform under just peer pressure, let alone deadly threat. Learn, do and practice regularly. That is your responsibility.
6. Concealed means concealed. Don’t fall for the first-time gun carrier urge to let everyone know “you got the power!” Depending on where you live, it could be a crime to “show your piece”, while elsewhere, open-carry is allowed. In my state there is no prohibition from carrying openly and loaded with a concealed permit. Yes, you can, but is it prudent? Should you try to “scare the horses” or keep it out of sight? In my area most in law enforcement do NOT know open carry is allowed and practitioners find themselves being stopped and questioned, even harassed by police because someone felt uncomfortable when they saw the gun. Better to keep it hidden and avoid the hassle and avoid losing your advantage during a bad situation. It takes planning, practice and training to do it right. Take the time to do it well.
7. Maximize your firearms familiarity. “The more you work with the chosen firearm, the more reflexively skilled you become in it’s emergency use and safe handling,” says Mr. Ayoob in a recent article, “Use the same action type for practice and competition.” Avail yourself of training and competitions to increase your skill level with your chosen tool of defense. You will not have time in the middle of a confrontation to learn how to run the gun! If ammunition prices are a factor due to budget constraints, consider a smaller caliber version of your self- defense gun. Rim-fire conversions for semi-auto handguns or a .22 version of your revolver, can give you inexpensive practice with skills that transfer to the larger caliber handgun. Dry practice hones a lot of skills without the expense of firing the ammunition. Just remember to do it safely.
8. Understand the fine points. You are responsible to know the details of carry laws in your state. Some states allow signs to be posted and no guns are allowed. Other states have signs posted but they have no force in law. Where I live, signs have no force in law, unless that location is listed as a Federal or State prohibited area. You also could be arrested for an infraction trespass violation in certain places, if you don’t leave when asked…after your gun is seen. Some states allow carry into bars, others it is not allowed. Check a credible source and never assume or go by what someone said they heard when it comes to the finer points of carrying.
9. Carry an adequate firearm. Experts recommend a minimum 38 S&W Special or 380 ACP as a starting point. Carry spare ammunition and consider a second or back-up gun. No, you are not paranoid, you are a conscientious, safety minded individual who has a clear view of reality. Any one else is suffering from a form mental illness called denial, a condition that could be fatal in some circumstances. I’ve heard it said that “one is none, two is one” by Clint Smith who trains at Thunder Ranch, Oregon and Phil Engeldrum, a very experienced expert said, “if you need to carry a gun, you probably need to carry two of them.” If your gun is taken as evidence after a self-defense confrontation, you made need a second, similar firearm so you can protect yourself from the “vengeful cronies of the criminal you were forced to shoot,” according to Ayoob. This also holds for a tool in for repair. Have a back-up or spare just in case.
10. Use common sense. Recognize the power and responsibility the gun represents. It belongs only in the hands of a person responsible enough to know and care about consequences, who cares about the safety of others, and respects human life. With many more Americans able to carry the means of defense, common sense needs a revival. It short, don’t do stupid things! Use you ability to think, plan, practice, avoid, and if needed, defend. Do it correctly and within the law.
While these are called “Commandments,” I think you can see the necessity and common sense distilled here. Review them frequently, just as you would the “other” commandments. It sure makes life a lot less complicated. Be safe and aware. The life you save will be your own or that of someone you love

Its nice to see Mas agree with me on this one. Hopefully some here will at least consider ccw IF YOU CAN vs. Open carry. For, it will help increase your chances of staying alive someday if that circumstance presents itself.

Psychman
06-26-2012, 07:57
I think he handled the situation just fine. A challenge was made, he responded to the challenge and all parties went on their way. No harm. No foul.

I am not a confrontational person so I would have probably just showed him ID and then been on my way. Plus, you never know when you might get that crazy cop who reacts totally inappropriately to a situation. I prefer to be polite when the other guy has a gun too.

DScottHewitt
06-26-2012, 08:31
Any follow-up after the incident? Did the Sgt on scene say or do anything? Did the OCer complain up the chain of command?

He posted a copy of the letter eh sent the chief here:


http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?103248-My-yearly-detainment-in-Portland


I love this line to the chief:

I believe that a lot of progress has been made under your direction to restore proper and legal police work in your city.


One sentence of praise might open his mind to consider the whole letter.......

DScottHewitt
06-26-2012, 08:33
TN law states that:


So in the case of the video, if this guy was in TN he would be in violation of the law for not providing his permit/ID and the officer would not need any cause for the stop?

My understanding is that open carry is perfectly legal in Maine without a permit, and that the young gentleman did not need to show his ID.


Valid point, though.

What he did was {GREAT THING} legal where he is. But, it is {BAD THING} illegal many places. Still.

DScottHewitt
06-26-2012, 08:35
You will always find some cop to play with and make a video citing case law...if that's what your goal is. I would like to think that any LE response has the goal of addressing a public safety concern, rather than discouraging permissable behavior.

Yeah. He recorded his SEVENTH encounter in FOUR years on his phone. Maybe he was tired of being illegally detained?

And I missed the part where he later shot up a school. So, what concern for public safety did he cause by breaking no laws?

DScottHewitt
06-26-2012, 08:37
Does that law refer to permitted concealed carry?

If TN is an open carry state, don't think that would apply.

Randy



IIRC, Tennessee you need a permit for both. Seems to have come up with the whole Kwikrnu thing.....


http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9286/orangeakpistol.jpg
By dscotthewitt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dscotthewitt) at 2012-06-22

DScottHewitt
06-26-2012, 08:41
Great, another one of these videos.

I tend to side with police. I know that if they truly violate my rights and take away my freedom there's some lawyer that'll take my case pro bono.

Why don't these guys ever join the force to try to improve it?

If you voluntarily agree to the stop/detention/search you forfeit your rights.


Keep in mind, though:









I AM NOT A LAWYER. I DO NOT PLAY ONE ON TV. I DO NOT EVEN PLAY ONE ON GLOCKTALK.


Anyone searching for legal advice, the only legal advice I have is:







HIRE A LAWYER!!!!!

DScottHewitt
06-26-2012, 08:44
I'm against OC where people don't expect to see OC'ing, but I can't help but find it both entertaining and amusing when a citizen lectures police officers on the law. Especially when they prevail!

You do realize that the Constitution says the right to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED, right?

Misty02
06-26-2012, 09:11
Yeah. He recorded his SEVENTH encounter in FOUR years on his phone. Maybe he was tired of being illegally detained?

And I missed the part where he later shot up a school. So, what concern for public safety did he cause by breaking no laws?


If it was the 7th encounter in such a short period, then there was a need to do something about it and try to get it fixed going forward. In this case, he has my first support.

.

DScottHewitt
06-26-2012, 10:07
If it was the 7th encounter in such a short period, then there was a need to do something about it and try to get it fixed going forward. In this case, he has my first support.

.

IIRC, that is what someone said in the GNG thread. He has been stopped more than once a year, while doing nothing illegal. This time, he pulled out his cellphone and recorded it.


EDIT TO ADD:


He said it in the Open Carry forum:


I have been stopped by the Portland PD 7 times. The first time I was arrested and the charges were thrown out by the DA. I have not been arrested since. I have recordings of 4 of the encounters. They take place over the last 4 years.

Although, on re-reading it, he may mean the four encounters he recorded all happened in the last four years.

DScottHewitt
06-26-2012, 11:59
Cover your **** up! If you want to show how tough and bad ass you are by displaying, in public, a loaded firearm on your hip become a LEO and try wearing the uniform awhile.

Concealed carrying works to your benefit for many reasons.
It's interesting that the guys who like to flaunt their machismo via open "look at me" carry are never LEO or from a military specialized unit such as Rangers or SEALs.

I see LEOs around here open carry all the time.


Must be a local thing where you are that none do.......

NDCent
06-26-2012, 12:34
What did he do in that particular video that would endanger any others? I’m the first to comment that those kinds of videos usually irritate me but other than that, in this particular case, the gentleman didn’t risk his safety, the safety of the public or the safety of the officer. There have been others where that wasn’t the case, but all aren’t the same.

.

I didn't mention him endangering anyone, including himself.

If it was the 7th encounter in such a short period, then there was a need to do something about it and try to get it fixed going forward. In this case, he has my first support.

.

I agree, and he has every right to carry openly, and make all the videos he wishes, and not have his rights infringed by all the JBT's of the world, but...

IMO, whether his rights being trampled on were actually his focus, or to educate the local law enforcement, his letter or a visit to the Chief would have probably given quicker results before his 8th police encounter, rather than after. Instead it seem to me as if he was trolling the streets to make You Tube videos.

You are entitled to your opinion on the subject, or the video, as am I. I simply feel his IN YOUR FACE attitude is similar to ANY in your face attitude on ANY subject. It many times drives people farther away from your way of thinking, or point of view, instead of drawing them closer. However, he has the right to shout case law from the mountain tops if he desires.

SCmasterblaster
06-26-2012, 13:42
until I have the money to apply for a NH CCW. My NH grocery store doesn't mind. :cool:

Kevin108
06-26-2012, 14:09
Originally Posted by dpadams6 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19128258)
I have yet to hear one good reason here why someone would choose to oc if they can ccw. And I don't want to hear because I can and it's my constitutional right. Just asking for one sound reason why it would be to your advantage. Other than hunting in woods.

Well the nice thing about living in Virginia is that you owe no one any reason or explanations for OC'ing. Since this is the mode that is the "normal" mode of carry here (read that as the standard or default mode), no explanation is required.

I will offer that my reasons are good and valid for me, and that is really all that matters, and I will tell you what they are. I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees (getting a total knee replacement in October) and because of this condition, I am no longer able to run from a situation or fight as I was once capable of doing. My visible sidearm acts as a warning to those who may be of a mind to do me evil that perhaps they would be better served to pick another victim. Am I right about this? I don't know, but my position is to err on the side of what I believe to be my best interests.

Again, I fully and completely support both modes of carry and would hope the avid CC'ers would return the favor.
+1 on everything (I too have arthritis. Although I'm not needing joint replacement, I have suffered with it for 20 years now and like most have good days and bad days. )

wjv
06-26-2012, 14:21
When Dr. Martin Luther King staged protests, was he just "trolling the streets"?

I see NO difference in this person being stopped and questioned for no reason, as when the police stop a black person who is out driving their car because they are black. . . (Google: driving while black).

Sometime someone just needs to stand up and say "Enough of this S***"!

SpringerTGO
06-26-2012, 14:59
The video is a good demonstration of how to make sure local law enforcement speaks out against OC. Great, the OP got his glock and made a video to show how smart he is.
I wonder how he treats other people while on his OC power trip.
It appears (from the video) that the OP is more concerned about exercising his rights, than keeping them.
Kind of like a 12 year old and freedom of speech.

wjv
06-26-2012, 15:09
Sorry. . But I fail to understand the logic of:

He needs to stop open carrying because if he doesn't, he'll lose his rights to open carry.

I also find it interesting that most people found the OC guy to be reasonably polite given the circumstance, but a small handful of other seem to think that he was rude or obnoxious. And that seems to influence their opinion far more than the legalities of being stopped for doing NOTHING wrong. . .

What if Martin Luther King had decided that he should have just shut up and stop being vocal about civil rights injustices? What if he had decided to just "go with the flow" and not "rock the boat"?

And yes, I AM comparing gun owners with other civil rights issues. Gun owners have been vilified to the point where politicians and the media feel they can say anything they like about us. They feel that they can infringe on our Constitutional rights because as far as they are concerned, we have no Constitutional rights.

So yes, maybe it is time to stop being nice and polite and to start saying "NO!! You are wrong!!"

SpringerTGO
06-26-2012, 15:16
Sorry. . But I fail to understand the logic of:

He needs to stop open carrying because if he doesn't, he'll lose his rights to open carry.

I also find it interesting that most people found the OC guy to be reasonably polite given the circumstance, but a small handful of other seem to think that he was rude or obnoxious. And that seems to influence their opinion far more than the legalities of being stopped for doing NOTHING wrong. . .

Just look what happened in CA.

gunslinger3
06-26-2012, 15:17
The video is a good demonstration of how to make sure local law enforcement speaks out against OC. Great, the OP got his glock and made a video to show how smart he is.
I wonder how he treats other people while on his OC power trip.
It appears (from the video) that the OP is more concerned about exercising his rights, than keeping them.
Kind of like a 12 year old and freedom of speech.

You have to exercise your muscles to keep them :whistling:

wjv
06-26-2012, 15:33
Just look what happened in CA.

What happened in CA has more to do with 30 years of electing liberals into office.

Across the board CA has some of the worst gun laws, second only to perhaps NY and IL. . In an environment like that the "leaders" don't need an excuse to abuse the people.

TBO
06-26-2012, 15:36
You have to exercise your muscles to keep them :whistling:

You have a right to be homosexual.

Doesn't ring quite the same, eh?

A simple/short/oft repeated phrase isn't the end all/be all of discussion.

There are responsible and irresponsible ways of doing things. Sometimes the difference is quite small. Sometimes it's in presentation, location, or format.

jmho

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

wjv
06-26-2012, 15:47
You have a right to be homosexual.

Doesn't ring quite the same, eh?



While some might disagree, the right to be a homosexual is not implicitly listed in the Constitution.




A simple/short/oft repeated phrase isn't the end all/be all of discussion.

There are responsible and irresponsible ways of doing things. Sometimes the difference is quite small. Sometimes it's in presentation, location, or format.




I will agree with that.

Yes, perhaps the OC'r could have been a bit more polite. But he was hardly the raging lunatic that some here seem imply that he was. .

There are others here who seem to be offended that he was actual knowledgeable about case law and think that makes him a "smart ass who was looking for trouble". Given that the title of the video (at least the version I saw) was "Law Student. . . " I would hope that he would know the law if he chose to OC.

gunslinger3
06-26-2012, 15:53
Yes, perhaps the OC'r could have been a bit more polite. But he was hardly the raging lunatic that some here seem imply that he was. .


I think it was more frustration for having to repeat himself 7 times.

gunslinger3
06-26-2012, 15:58
You have a right to be homosexual.

Doesn't ring quite the same, eh?

A simple/short/oft repeated phrase isn't the end all/be all of discussion.



Did a search here and didn't find this phrase oft repeated at all. Sometimes short and simple is better than complicated and long winded. IMHO

SpringerTGO
06-26-2012, 16:05
While some might disagree, the right to be a homosexual is not implicitly listed in the Constitution.





I will agree with that.

Yes, perhaps the OC'r could have been a bit more polite. But he was hardly the raging lunatic that some here seem imply that he was. .

There are others here who seem to be offended that he was actual knowledgeable about case law and think that makes him a "smart ass who was looking for trouble". Given that the title of the video (at least the version I saw) was "Law Student. . . " I would hope that he would know the law if he chose to OC.

No way was he looking for trouble. I'm sure he video tapes himself eating breakfast and doing laundry too. I don't see anyone calling the OP a raging lunatic. I see a lot of people questioning his actions, intentions, motives, attitude, and expectations. Great, he's a law student he knows enough to give LEO's a hard time on OC issues...... that doesn't mean his actions benefited anyone wanting to OC. Hopefully these same LEO's won't have to deal with a legitimate OC'r who had to use his weapon in self defense, because they are probably a bit tarnished on OC.

TBO
06-26-2012, 16:08
Did a search here and didn't find this phrase oft repeated at all. Sometimes short and simple is better than complicated and long winded. IMHO

"Rights are like muscles, they need to be exercised to keep strong"

If you've never read that on a gun/carry board, you haven't spent any time on one.

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

wjv
06-26-2012, 16:08
I think it was more frustration for having to repeat himself 7 times.

While it may have seemed like a reasonable question, I do think in all fairness that the cop was not obligated (at that point) to say "You are in violation of section 7, part 35 of the bla bla bla".

When a cop is investigating, they often don't know exactly what crime has been committed, or even if a crime has been committed. Hence the need for the investigation.

BUT. . Asking: Why did you stop me for questioning? Do you suspect me of being a felon or committing a crime? are questions that I think the cop should have answered. And when he finally did, that pretty much ended the interview.

Both sides could have played it differently. I don't think that the guy should have been stopped at all. But given that he was, the cop WAS polite and professional the entire time.

wjv
06-26-2012, 16:11
No way was he looking for trouble. I'm sure he video tapes himself eating breakfast and doing laundry too.

He had his cell phone with him and activated it because he had been detained and questioned about OC SIX times before.

Some of you sound exactly like the gun owners who claim to support the 2nd amendment, but then say things like:

- Why does anyone need an assault weapon. All you need is a shotgun/hunting-rifle.

- Why does anyone need a high-capacity semi-auto pistol. All you need is a six shooter.

dpadams6
06-26-2012, 16:29
I see LEOs around here open carry all the time.


Must be a local thing where you are that none do.......

I guarantee the VAST MAJORITY of leo DO NOT oc. Wherever you live is an extreme minority.

SpringerTGO
06-26-2012, 16:36
He had his cell phone with him and activated it because he had been detained and questioned about OC SIX times before.

Some of you sound exactly like the gun owners who claim to support the 2nd amendment, but then say things like:

- Why does anyone need an assault weapon. All you need is a shotgun/hunting-rifle.

- Why does anyone need a high-capacity semi-auto pistol. All you need is a six shooter.

So if anyone questions the OP's motives and attitude they are anti 2a?
Nice.

But on another note, say a person walks around a mall OC'ing an assault rifle, and LEO's are called but don't respond because the guy is doing nothing illegal. Then he decides to empty a few 30 round magazines into shoppers.
What would people be saying about the LEO's who didn't respond?

Let me guess...... LEO's could not have prevented it, and that's just another reason for all of us to carry.

wjv
06-26-2012, 16:49
But on another note, say a person walks around a mall OC'ing an assault rifle, and LEO's are called but don't respond because the guy is doing nothing illegal.

I note the way that you assume that someone with a rifle in a mall MUST be a criminal. Maybe he just bought the rifle from the Big-5 sporting goods store and is walking out to his car.

Also, malls are private property and if the police responded to said call, the odds are they would be doing so at the request of the property owner.

Our laws are based on the concept that if something is NOT explicitly illegal, then it is legal. Why is that so hard to understand? So if it is NOT illegal to walk around with a rifle AND the mall owner doesn't care. . Then there is no need for police contact. Reality is that while some malls are not posted "no firearms", many are, and most people open carrying any type of firearm will likely be asked to leave. At which point one MUST leave.

Sharky7
06-26-2012, 16:56
What if Martin Luther King had decided that he should have.......

DING DING DING!!! For all you playing, Take a Shot at home.

We would have also taken "Rosa Parks" or any comparison to the back of the bus for an answer.

Any future references to "Jackbooted thugs" or "JBT", take 2 shots.

wjv
06-26-2012, 17:07
DING DING DING!!! For all you playing, Take a Shot at home.

We would have also taken "Rosa Parks" or any comparison to the back of the bus for an answer.

Any future references to "Jackbooted thugs" or "JBT", take 2 shots.

Glad you think civil rights are a joke. . Officer. . .

Arc Angel
06-26-2012, 17:14
:upeyes: I don't even want to think about the number of social events I could have been in serious trouble over had the person I became involved with (over something stupid like a parking space) realized I was heavily armed - Don't even want to think about it! :shocked:

What's it take for all these OC hotheads to realize there is a pronounced political double standard over firearms and their use in America, today? Even wild animals realize that the best way to stay alive in the jungle is to never do anything that makes them standout from the rest of the herd; but, when it comes to guns and the American public, far too many idiots seem to delight in doing just that: Standing out from the herd with a deadly weapon on their hip!

And, don't give me any of the usual gun forum excuses about OC being legal, or about, 'public education', or exercising an inherent civil right! If it's an inherent civil right then it doesn't need some socially maladjusted jerk to exercise it; and, if it's about public education, a large majority of the, 'education' any unexpected civilian with an exposed gun is going to do will be entirely negative in nature, and dialectically opposite to what every public school in America is presently teaching.

Civilian open carry should, also, go against that, 'street sense' so many of us, 'savvy urban gunmen' ( :supergrin: ) have spent so many years working to master - Cooper's, 'color code' and all that! Remember, if it seems odd it is odd and should always be treated that way. Otherwise your C-1 Glock might not be quick enough to save you from that most dreaded of all street perils: An instantaneous CQB ambush! I mean, let's face it, if you're going to go to all the trouble of endangering: yourself, your family, and the neighbors with C-1 carry then shouldn't you also keep an eye on that shopping mall, 'Harvard Law Professor' with the exposed sidearm?

Sharky7
06-26-2012, 18:10
Glad you think civil rights are a joke. . Officer. . .

Baiting me will not work.

The joke is the comparison. It's offensive and disgusting to compare "boyscout399" to Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks.

Sharky7
06-26-2012, 18:15
What if Martin Luther King had decided that he should have just shut up and stop being vocal about civil rights injustices? What if he had decided to just "go with the flow" and not "rock the boat"?

And yes, I AM comparing gun owners with other civil rights issues. Gun owners have been vilified to the point where politicians and the media feel they can say anything they like about us. They feel that they can infringe on our Constitutional rights because as far as they are concerned, we have no Constitutional rights.

So yes, maybe it is time to stop being nice and polite and to start saying "NO!! You are wrong!!"

How old are you? Maybe you were not old enough to see it, but gun rights are better than they have ever been.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Rtc.gif

Cavalry Doc
06-26-2012, 18:49
Sorry. . But I fail to understand the logic of:

He needs to stop open carrying because if he doesn't, he'll lose his rights to open carry.

I also find it interesting that most people found the OC guy to be reasonably polite given the circumstance, but a small handful of other seem to think that he was rude or obnoxious. And that seems to influence their opinion far more than the legalities of being stopped for doing NOTHING wrong. . .

What if Martin Luther King had decided that he should have just shut up and stop being vocal about civil rights injustices? What if he had decided to just "go with the flow" and not "rock the boat"?

And yes, I AM comparing gun owners with other civil rights issues. Gun owners have been vilified to the point where politicians and the media feel they can say anything they like about us. They feel that they can infringe on our Constitutional rights because as far as they are concerned, we have no Constitutional rights.

So yes, maybe it is time to stop being nice and polite and to start saying "NO!! You are wrong!!"

Always be nice initially. It avoids lots of problems.

Even when I am questioning people, I always ask nice, the first time.

blastfact
06-26-2012, 19:48
Well I look forward to open carry here in Oklahoma. There is no doubt it's going to be a double edged sword. Well it is so to speak. Here we have to identify ourselves as carrying be it concealed or open in the future. Have the ID and permit ready at all times! And pay out the wallet to exercise our right.

I honestly would rather not have to go through all the ID and Permit crap. But I can tell you the stupid felons will come out in waves come November. They will break the law and push LEO's if not engage them. And convicted felons should not be owners, carrier's, smith's, shooter's, reloaders or hunters. PERIOD! So presenting ID and permit, just might help the police a tad. That does not mean I support a police state.

As for open carry. I do look forward to it. And the anti's are just going to have to get use to it. And open carry has been so public that folks calling in about a person or persons open carrying are not going to be looked on favorable by LEO when the numbers clearly start supporting the fact most will be carrying legal. As has been the case concerning CC. You would be a fool to call in a weapons issue in my home state without knowing first hand that the person is a felon in charge of a weapon. Or just commented a crime or has threatened to commit a crime. There is one group of people here that never turn in there own kind be them relatives or pass through. They have a different code of ethics. That's going to be a problem for all our citizens. And a real pain for LEO's. As is 100 can witness a killing and no one says a word to LEO. Be it homicide or self defense. They can have blood spatter on them, and they didn't see a thing.

As for open carry and what folks will carry? There will be folks carrying the biggest hog legs they can get there hands on. This is Oklahoma. It will be in some places and at certain times a real funny gut buster. :) I can't wait to see the S&W 500's come out. And you can bet the concrete cowboys and there jacked up trucks will be hauling the heaviest iron. Not to mention some of the tinyist beautiful women you have ever seen in there natural habitat. They will strap on there 500's. Folks are going to have there dress weapons and there beat up beater work rods on. OC will be apart of our ID. We will have our going to church pistols out and our BBQ pistols. It will become part of our ID. Not to mention most will still have a BUG on them or in there car or truck. Texas won't be far behind I bet. And that should be fun also. Everything's bigger in Texass Yeah Know. :) OC will be embraced here and be part of the culture.

As for me. I look forward to carrying my G20, M&P's, 686P and others I won't CC. Hell who know's I might have to get me a true hog leg. It would be worth it just to have one. Strap it on and see there eye's when this old 6'3" okie/arkie boy rolls out of his Civic Hybrid with it on. I bet some in this thread would twist out seeing that. Some have so many preconceived notions hung in there brain stem. Would they have bad inner thoughts concerning my hybrid. Or would it be my gun? Or how about my black clothing, boots and NRA hat. Or would it be my herniated belly and limp cause I'm torn up to hell and back. Or would it be my little PF-9 on my waist. Or my wife with her 60 Pro.

Nothing like color in life and being almost free. :)

LawScholar
06-26-2012, 20:49
I have brought many folks to the pro-gun fold in the last few years. Opponents of firearms can be reasoned with, in my experience, with patience and reasonableness. Most even support concealed carry if you just talk it out with them. I count two antis among my friends who now carry.

All of them, and myself, oppose OC. I think it should be legal, I just find it in horribly bad taste. There are zero advantages to it. None. You alert the criminals to your gun. Think they'll be scared? Then why aren't they scared of police, who OC and have backup? Why are OC'ers occasionally murdered with their own guns? If criminals thought logically they wouldn't be criminals.

OC blows the element of surprise and makes many folks hostile to you. It gets you noticed. That's the worst thing of all strategically. And if you're pushy enough about it, people start talking to their legislators. Then OC gets banned, and printing or having your gun peek out becomes a crime for concealed carriers.

Ignoring the political realities hurts the cause so much more than it helps it. The "bait-a-cop" YouTube videos have turned more folks anti than the Brady campaign ever did.

We're riding a wave of gun rights victories. We should not squander the rare popular support we have by giving folks a reason to make "man-with-a-gun" calls. It's not "educating" anyone. You think those folks stick around to follow up? They run home and tell their friends about the scary guy with a gun. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't make it untrue.

vettely
06-26-2012, 20:54
I have brought many folks to the pro-gun fold in the last few years. Opponents of firearms can be reasoned with, in my experience, with patience and reasonableness. Most even support concealed carry if you just talk it out with them. I count two antis among my friends who now carry.

All of them, and myself, oppose OC. I think it should be legal, I just find it in horribly bad taste. There are zero advantages to it. None. You alert the criminals to your gun. Think they'll be scared? Then why aren't they scared of police, who OC and have backup? Why are OC'ers occasionally murdered with their own guns? If criminals thought logically they wouldn't be criminals.

OC blows the element of surprise and makes many folks hostile to you. It gets you noticed. That's the worst thing of all strategically. And if you're pushy enough about it, people start talking to their legislators. Then OC gets banned, and printing becomes a crime for concealed carriers.

Ignoring the political realities hurts the cause so much more than it helps it. The "bait-a-cop" YouTube videos have turned more folks anti than the Brady campaign ever did.
That, Sir, was very well stated.

I have learned a lot from this thread. 1. This topic is almost the equivalent of an abortion debate. 2. Common sense is not a factor.

RussP
06-27-2012, 03:28
Why are OC'ers occasionally murdered with their own guns?You say occasionally, meaning it happens from time to time. In another thread we are looking for exactly that information, the times OC'ers have been murdered with their own weapon. Would you please list the times you know of and provide the links to the incidents? It will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks... :thumbsup:

LawScholar's response and other related posts are now in the more relevant thread, Got a question........ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1429306), where we can continue the discussion.

See your there...

eccho
06-27-2012, 05:30
In iowa it was made clear by my CCW class instructor that you must produce a permit if requested. It doesn't take an officer long to check an ID to make sure your not a felon and that's all the guy wanted to do.

I get the side that says be cooperative and just give him ID.

I've heard of police departments declining to send an officer to the scene just to check an open carrier. I heard in some cases they'll actually inform the caller open carry is legal and tell them they have to literally wave the gun around or give the impression a crime is about to be committed for it to be a problem.

I support the guy for calling out the officer on pointing the gun at his legs, I freakin love it when somebody does that to me at a gun store. (sarcasm)

I also like the bombardment of case law citations.
I never considered the issue of his name being in a police report, I imagine that could come up later in say, a traffic stop and affect the officer's opinion of you

Misty02
06-27-2012, 05:55
I didn't mention him endangering anyone, including himself.



I agree, and he has every right to carry openly, and make all the videos he wishes, and not have his rights infringed by all the JBT's of the world, but...

IMO, whether his rights being trampled on were actually his focus, or to educate the local law enforcement, his letter or a visit to the Chief would have probably given quicker results before his 8th police encounter, rather than after. Instead it seem to me as if he was trolling the streets to make You Tube videos.

You are entitled to your opinion on the subject, or the video, as am I. I simply feel his IN YOUR FACE attitude is similar to ANY in your face attitude on ANY subject. It many times drives people farther away from your way of thinking, or point of view, instead of drawing them closer. However, he has the right to shout case law from the mountain tops if he desires.

I don’t like the “on your face” attitude either. I can be a tad more understanding when it occurs continuously and there is a need to document it in order to demonstrate the need for a fix. I don’t know if he contacted the Chief earlier and his comments had received no attention and the issues not addressed.

We’re more on the same page where these kinds of encounter falls than you think; to me they are an instant turn-off. I find them irritating.

.

Misty02
06-27-2012, 06:01
Sorry. . But I fail to understand the logic of:

He needs to stop open carrying because if he doesn't, he'll lose his rights to open carry.

I also find it interesting that most people found the OC guy to be reasonably polite given the circumstance, but a small handful of other seem to think that he was rude or obnoxious. And that seems to influence their opinion far more than the legalities of being stopped for doing NOTHING wrong. . .

What if Martin Luther King had decided that he should have just shut up and stop being vocal about civil rights injustices? What if he had decided to just "go with the flow" and not "rock the boat"?

And yes, I AM comparing gun owners with other civil rights issues. Gun owners have been vilified to the point where politicians and the media feel they can say anything they like about us. They feel that they can infringe on our Constitutional rights because as far as they are concerned, we have no Constitutional rights.

So yes, maybe it is time to stop being nice and polite and to start saying "NO!! You are wrong!!"

I’m sorry, he was obnoxious. Nonetheless, if something happens often, you have brought it to the attention of those in a position to fix it and it doesn’t get fixed, then being obnoxious about it may be the last card played to have the issue resolved. Finding the right balance and doing it in a way that is not dangerous and hopefully yields the right outcome is what is likely to become a difficult task.

.

Arc Angel
06-27-2012, 08:02
I have brought many folks to the pro-gun fold in the last few years. Opponents of firearms can be reasoned with, in my experience, with patience and reasonableness. Most even support concealed carry if you just talk it out with them. I count two antis among my friends who now carry.

All of them, and myself, oppose OC. I think it should be legal, I just find it in horribly bad taste. There are zero advantages to it. None. You alert the criminals to your gun. Think they'll be scared? Then why aren't they scared of police, who OC and have backup? Why are OC'ers occasionally murdered with their own guns? If criminals thought logically they wouldn't be criminals.

OC blows the element of surprise and makes many folks hostile to you. It gets you noticed. That's the worst thing of all strategically. And if you're pushy enough about it, people start talking to their legislators. Then OC gets banned, and printing or having your gun peek out becomes a crime for concealed carriers.

Ignoring the political realities hurts the cause so much more than it helps it. The "bait-a-cop" YouTube videos have turned more folks anti than the Brady campaign ever did.

We're riding a wave of gun rights victories. We should not squander the rare popular support we have by giving folks a reason to make "man-with-a-gun" calls. It's not "educating" anyone. You think those folks stick around to follow up? They run home and tell their friends about the scary guy with a gun. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't make it untrue.

:shocked: Wow! You really are a law scholar!

(It's not everyday someone with your ability to reason and uncommon social sense decides to post on a gun forum. I'm very impressed!) :thumbsup:

Mr.Pliskin
06-27-2012, 08:46
I could see maybe if they can't ccw for what ever reason. But to choose that over ccw is really not sound tactics and you totally put yourself at disadvantage. If the shtf, who would not want every advantage possible?

Just out of curiosity what disadvantage are you speaking of? What about it is not sound tactics? Please provide any hard evidence instead of opinion where someone OCing has provoked some incident.

I've CC for years but I'm always hearing these terms when someone is against OC and Im wondering where they got their facts or opinions.

EDIT Looks like I needed to read past page 3. Plat and Matix basically went to get a gun at a "shooting range" no real surprise they'd find a gun there.

wjv
06-27-2012, 09:47
How old are you? Maybe you were not old enough to see it, but gun rights are better than they have ever been.

Bull****. .

I'm probably a lot older than you. .

I remember when you could buy a gun at Ace hardware and walk out the door, or order a gun through a catalog and have it delivered to your home.

TBO
06-27-2012, 09:56
Bull****. .

I'm probably a lot older than you. .

I remember when you could buy a gun at Ace hardware and walk out the door, or order a gun through a catalog and have it delivered to your home.
Did you somehow miss the .gif in Sharky's post?

RussP
06-27-2012, 10:21
Bull****. .

I'm probably a lot older than you. .

I remember when you could buy a gun at Ace hardware and walk out the door, or order a gun through a catalog and have it delivered to your home.

Did you somehow miss the .gif in Sharky's post?Just in case...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Rtc.gif

JuneyBooney
06-27-2012, 11:15
Sounds like he was well versed in the precedents set by relevant court decisions. Sad that most would not be so prepared in such a scenario, and would therefore be unlawfully detained and/or harassed just for exercising their rights. You have to be prepared to paddle your own canoe (upstream) to avoid the pitfalls of being harassed like this.

This is just one of reasons I would not open carry.

And I am not a cop basher; I do see both sides of this issue and they have jobs to do. Some nosy nanny obviously called the cops because they saw a bad scary gun in a holster and the police were obliged to look into it. I think both parties handled themselves professionally.

I agree that he was well versed but in most cases officer safety comes into play and they would argue that point. I agree that concealed carry is better for less hassle. He was very well versed om case law.

Green_Manelishi
06-27-2012, 11:25
1. I live in (Kittery Point) Maine. This location is SOUTHERN Maine, just across the river from New Hampshire and far too close to Massachusetts.

2. If I correctly understand the relevant laws, Maine is an OC state, and shall(?) issue for concealed carry.

3. I am not going to read all 6 pages of replies to the OP.

4. If you OC in Machias, Fort Kent, or someplace "up Maine" or "Down east" it's likely no one will give a ratsass.

5. Portland, ME is north (about 45 minutes) of Kittery but still considered southern Maine and is "very close" to BOSTON (i.e. Mass). OC in southern Maine WILL probably result in some dingbat from away, or an incomer (usually from Mass) calling the Police. From there, rights or not, it's all downhill.

Green_Manelishi
06-27-2012, 11:32
So people can see the differences between OC in various states, as well as not many people on here from Maine contributing to the "Maine" discussion. :cool:

I contributed.

dpadams6
06-27-2012, 11:38
Just out of curiosity what disadvantage are you speaking of? What about it is not sound tactics? Please provide any hard evidence instead of opinion where someone OCing has provoked some incident.

I've CC for years but I'm always hearing these terms when someone is against OC and Im wondering where they got their facts or opinions.

EDIT Looks like I needed to read past page 3. Plat and Matix basically went to get a gun at a "shooting range" no real surprise they'd find a gun there.

Just a little common sense would answer your question. Fact: We don't have eyes in the back of our head. Say your in any establishment and all of the sudden there is an armed robbery in progress with guns. Typically your back, at one point at least,is facing the door. And your one of the customers thats carrying a gun. Do you really think at that point that your EXPOSED GUN TO THE ROBBERY SUSPECTS is not going to see that and possibly disarm or worse yet take you out first? Or, rather, you are ccw and totally blend in with the other customers and you decide rather to make a move or not based on the circumstances in front of you? Seems good commmon sense is obvious.

RussP
06-27-2012, 11:48
I contributed.:thumbsup:

wjv
06-27-2012, 11:49
Just in case...



The Second Amendment is not measured purely by Right to Carry. . .

LawScholar
06-27-2012, 12:21
:shocked: Wow! You really are a law scholar!

(It's not everyday someone with your ability to reason and uncommon social sense decides to post on a gun forum. I'm very impressed!) :thumbsup:

That's nice, and I appreciate it. Thank you. :)

I believe all (or at least most) of us here want a strong Second Amendment, and are enjoying the removal of the stigma. I just disagree with the OC folks about how to accomplish that goal.

J_Rico
06-27-2012, 13:20
I have brought many folks to the pro-gun fold in the last few years. Opponents of firearms can be reasoned with, in my experience, with patience and reasonableness. Most even support concealed carry if you just talk it out with them. I count two antis among my friends who now carry.

Thank you for your efforts in adding people to the pro-gun camp.

All of them, and myself, oppose OC. I think it should be legal, I just find it in horribly bad taste. There are zero advantages to it. None. You alert the criminals to your gun. Think they'll be scared? Then why aren't they scared of police, who OC and have backup? Why are OC'ers occasionally murdered with their own guns? If criminals thought logically they wouldn't be criminals.

OC blows the element of surprise and makes many folks hostile to you. It gets you noticed. That's the worst thing of all strategically. And if you're pushy enough about it, people start talking to their legislators. Then OC gets banned, and printing or having your gun peek out becomes a crime for concealed carriers.

Ignoring the political realities hurts the cause so much more than it helps it. The "bait-a-cop" YouTube videos have turned more folks anti than the Brady campaign ever did.

We're riding a wave of gun rights victories. We should not squander the rare popular support we have by giving folks a reason to make "man-with-a-gun" calls. It's not "educating" anyone. You think those folks stick around to follow up? They run home and tell their friends about the scary guy with a gun. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't make it untrue.

The rest of your statement was well spoken and articulate. Sadly, it was not all true. The part I highlighted was spoken as fact and yet it is not. That is your opinion.

Many people state the advantages they find with OC. You can read many such replies in this very thread. Why do you (and others) continue to declare that OC offers no advantage or value in the face of people telling you of their own postive experiences?

It would appear that some locations have very few issues with OC. Also, some people find OC preferable in their own situations. Why is that wrong or in bad taste?

writwing
06-27-2012, 15:05
This could have been prevented by concealed carry.

Or the police following the law.

Sharky7
06-27-2012, 16:32
The Second Amendment is not measured purely by Right to Carry. . .

The right of the people to keep and bear arms....What other factors do you measure it by?

You can't fault a private business for not stocking guns anymore. It's private - not government run. It's their decision. Even though your Ace or Wal Mart might not be as big into gun sales as they used to, gun sales are still up.

Even over the last 10 years there has been a change with manufacturers offering a bigger selection of concealed carry weapons.

http://cdn.pjmedia.com/tatler/files/2012/03/Graph-11.jpg

IhRedrider
06-27-2012, 17:05
OC is unsafe.

It is a well known fact that the sight of an armed man will cause such a welling of courage and anger in a "criminally inclined" individual, that he will attack immediately and with such ferocity that no mere mortal can combat. Besides it is also a well known, and rooted in pure logic, that any criminal would much rather "take on" an ARMED man than one that blends into the herd. Yes I did say and mean herd.

mycriptonite
06-27-2012, 17:47
This guys an *******, if you want to open carry you are going to get a reaction from people and the police. Weather or not its your right is meaningless. If I was the LEO I would of pepper sprayed him and took him to jail for his inconvienence

Stevekozak
06-27-2012, 17:49
I agree that he was well versed but in most cases officer safety comes into play and they would argue that point. .
Do you mean the officer's safety at the time of the officer's encounter with the gentleman in the OP? The encounter that would not have happened had the officer not chosen to stop the gentleman for no other reason than his legally sanctioned chose to carry his firearm openly? Strikes me that if there is no encounter, then there is no officer safety issue........Hmmmmm......:wavey:

wjv
06-27-2012, 17:50
The right of the people to keep and bear arms....What other factors do you measure it by?


There are whole classes of guns that people can no longer buy, or at least not buy without spending $10K plus for BATF permits.

There are whole classes of guns that cannot be imported.

There are far more hoops to jump through than ever before before you can buy a gun.

There are cities/states where you need a permit just to purchase a gun, and need to get a permit for every purchase.

There are places where you need a FOID card just to buy ammo.

There are places that still prohibit magazines over a certain size, or specific types of weapons based mostly on appearance.

As I said, CCW is not the sole measure of the 2nd amendment.

wjv
06-27-2012, 17:51
This guys an *******, if you want to open carry you are going to get a reaction from people and the police. Weather or not its your right is meaningless. If I was the LEO I would of pepper sprayed him and took him to jail for his inconvienence

Please do so. . .
I'd bet he and his lawyer would appreciate the huge cash settlement.

Stevekozak
06-27-2012, 17:52
Weather or not its your right is meaningless.
So....raining or sunny an American's rights are meaningless? Maybe that whole Bill of Rights was just a pleasant dream I had while asleep? :shocked:

dpadams6
06-27-2012, 17:56
Thank you for your efforts in adding people to the pro-gun camp.



The rest of your statement was well spoken and articulate. Sadly, it was not all true. The part I highlighted was spoken as fact and yet it is not. That is your opinion.

Many people state the advantages they find with OC. You can read many such replies in this very thread. Why do you (and others) continue to declare that OC offers no advantage or value in the face of people telling you of their own postive experiences?

It would appear that some locations have very few issues with OC. Also, some people find OC preferable in their own situations. Why is that wrong or in bad taste?

Lawscholar is correct. ZERO ADVANTAGE. ELEMENT OF SUPRISE IS E V E R Y T H I N G

Green_Manelishi
06-27-2012, 18:03
The encounter that would not have happened had the officer not chosen to stop the gentleman for no other reason than his legally sanctioned chose to carry his firearm openly?

If you LISTEN you will hear the PO state "people are calling ...". As I posted before, Portland, ME is hardly the wise choice to be OC, lawful or not. Tourist season is upon the area and incomers with summer homes, and "people from away" on vacation are everywhere. I'll wager it was one of them that called, and at that point the POLICE are bound to do something because if they say "Hey, uh, OC is a right in this state" you can bet the incomer/from away will begin screaming for the POLICE to "do something".

Sharky7
06-27-2012, 18:06
There are far more hoops to jump through than ever before before you can buy a gun.

There are cities/states where you need a permit just to purchase a gun, and need to get a permit for every purchase.

There are places where you need a FOID card just to buy ammo.

There are places that still prohibit magazines over a certain size, or specific types of weapons based mostly on appearance.

As I said, CCW is not the sole measure of the 2nd amendment.

That is not true. The trend has clearly been towards more and more gun rights. The magazine ban used to be nationwide - don't you remember? I still have Glock magazines that are labeled Military/LE Only.

The FOID act has been in place for MANY years, but even Illinois is loosening up their gun restrictions. Chicago used to have a complete ban on handguns and has was forced to drop that.

More and more court cases in favor of gun rights. More states allowing concealed carry. Some states even going to "Constitution Carry." There is a LOT less hoops. 30 years ago most of the people on this forum would not be able to carry a firearm outside of their home.

I read the court decisions every day - it's part of my job. I follow the law changes.

How can you say it is "bull****" for the trend not to be towards further gun rights?

BigDeeeeeeee
06-27-2012, 18:23
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Rtc.gifThis is titled Right-to-Carry??? because what it mostly shows is those states that now issue permission slips from your governmental overlords. Open carry is the 2nd Amendment, open carry has been protected in my state since 1890, Idaho Constitution Article I Section 11:
Right to keep and bear arms.
The people have the right to keep and bear arms, which right shall not be abridged; but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to govern the carrying of weapons concealed on the person nor prevent passage of legislation providing minimum sentences for crimes committed while in possession of a firearm, nor prevent the passage of legislation providing penalties for the possession of firearms by a convicted felon, nor prevent the passage of any legislation punishing the use of a firearm. No law shall impose licensure, registration or special taxation on the ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition. Nor shall any law permit the confiscation of firearms, except those actually used in the commission of a felony.

If you need a permission slip to do it you aren't exercising a right, stop kidding yourself.

RussP
06-27-2012, 18:33
Lawscholar is correct. ZERO ADVANTAGE. ELEMENT OF SUPRISE IS E V E R Y T H I N GFor you, yes. But for someone else, open carry may give them an advantage.

The element of surprise is just a part of successful self defense. Remember, the bad guys are experts at surprise, too.

Trace3
06-27-2012, 18:34
Just watched the initial video, my hat is off to the officers. The OC'er may have been in the clear as far as the laws of Maine, but he acted like a putz. (Granted we all have the right to act like a putz. That doesn't make it right.)

If it was his intent to educate through this interaction (a la youtube) he could have started by providing a good example when dealing with law enforcement by presenting himself as a mature and less panicky individual. The bottom line is that OCing will bring attention on the carrier. If we don't accept that we become the punk with a green mohawk or the chick with the low cut top that stares daggers when they get oggled on the street. The biggest difference is that nobody calls the police for a bad haircut.

Another tip for those of us outside of Maine...refusing to provide ID to cops can lead to detention until our identity can be verified.

AKR
06-27-2012, 18:42
Back in the late 70's, I serviced burglar and fire alarms at night to put myself through school. (I know a lot of you weren't born then. We didn't have cell phones and revolvers were the standard.) I was encouraged by the LEO's I worked with to be armed. Oftentimes I was their only possible backup, and they spent time training me to clear buildings, handle a firearm, etc. Their chief eventually issued me a NON-CONCEALED permit to carry, so I OC'd long before it was cool in Boulder County, a liberal anti-gun sort of place. Although I wore a company uniform, it was unremarkable and clearly designed to not be confused with a LEO uniform. There was no badge.

I OC'd 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. Every now and then I would encounter a LEO that I had not met previously, but none ever even commented on my gun or asked to see my permit. People were polite. Restaurants that I frequented would comp me meals. I walked into 7-11s late at night without incident. One 7-11 clerk told me he liked me hanging around; he felt safer. Only once in the roughly year and half I carried was I challenged. A fast food clerk told me that she wouldn't serve me because I was carrying a gun. I told her that I had a permit from the Chief of Police to legally carry and it was important for my job. She went ahead and served me, although I didn't show her my permit. In a friendly way, I pointed out to her that if I were some nut with a gun, it might not be a good idea to refuse to serve me. She agreed after she thought about it.

Most people just mind their own business, fortunately. I was surprised how little reaction OC got at that time.

I also went streaking long before it was the rage in Boulder, but that's another story.

Limedust
06-27-2012, 18:58
Just watched the initial video, my hat is off to the officers. The OC'er may have been in the clear as far as the laws of Maine, but he acted like a putz. (Granted we all have the right to act like a putz. That doesn't make it right.)

If it was his intent to educate through this interaction (a la youtube) he could have started by providing a good example when dealing with law enforcement by presenting himself as a mature and less panicky individual . . . The bottom line is that OCing will bring attention on the carrier.

Agreed. I think it's good to know the law; I also think it's good to treat police officers like they are human beings. The cop asked for a conversation . . . the OP might have painlessly assented to that and thereafter been on his way with little fuss. He might even have made a friend; I would rather know the police officers where I open carry (were I to do so) and have a mutual respectful relationship with them rather than an antagonistic one. I think that's what will make open carry more socially acceptable and at the very least will limit potentially dangerous or unpleasant situations with law enforcement.

talon
06-27-2012, 19:06
Off duty Leo with cowboy hat, boots and full size chrome 45 owb has been sighted at officemax many a time. :)

You say this like it's a fact, it's not. I have friends that are Army vets and now Federal Officers that do indeed OC everywhere they go off duty. They rarely cover it.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

talon
06-27-2012, 19:14
OC vs CC

Thats about .6x vs 1.0 sec on my shot timer. :)

RussP
06-27-2012, 20:07
Off duty Leo with cowboy hat, boots and full size chrome 45 owb has been sighted at officemax many a time. :)It's Dallas, Texas...all's good!!

LawScholar
06-27-2012, 22:04
Thank you for your efforts in adding people to the pro-gun camp.

You're quite welcome. Thank you for appreciating it. :)


The rest of your statement was well spoken and articulate.

Again, thank you.

Sadly, it was not all true. The part I highlighted was spoken as fact and yet it is not. That is your opinion.

Many people state the advantages they find with OC. You can read many such replies in this very thread. Why do you (and others) continue to declare that OC offers no advantage or value in the face of people telling you of their own postive experiences?

It would appear that some locations have very few issues with OC. Also, some people find OC preferable in their own situations. Why is that wrong or in bad taste?

You know what? I actually agree with you. And not in the snarky forum-debate sense, where I'm acting nice to lead into an attack on you. I phrased myself poorly in several parts of my post.

It was wrong of me to suggest that no advantage is posted by open carry. Indeed, that would be asinine. I can think of two certain advantages:

1.) Carrying a full-size weapon - who wouldn't prefer 17+1 from a G17 as opposed to 10+1 from a G26, in addition to more barrel length for bullet velocity and a bigger grip?

2.) Faster access - instant, open access will beat even the best concealment rigs, even if only by a small bit.

I'll even add a third, though I disagree with it.

3.) The potential to familiarize the general public with seeing weapons, and make sure they see it's completely legal.

Rather, what I should have said was that - yes, in my opinion, as you rightly point out :) - the disadvantages of the method substantially outweigh the advantages. Disadvantages which include:

1.) Destroying the element of surprise - in other words, the criminal robbing the bank or preparing for the shooting spree sees you first in a crowd and may prioritize his targeting accordingly.

2.) The potential for poor retention. Will an untrained open carrier (because let's face it, most are probably untrained, just like most concealed carriers are probably untrained) be prepared to repel an immediate, surprise assault meant to disarm him? Even trained police officers lose this fight.

3.) The potential for a negative interaction with police. While a positive interaction is possible, it's not likely at all in some regions. As YouTube shows us, the interactions can grow heated and hostile fast. Indeed, some of the cop-baiting 'Tubers seem to be going for this result.

4.) The potential for a negative impression on fellow citizens. I doubt many on the forum agree with this, but the average Joe Citizen thinks a lot of media-influenced "oh, a cowboy with a God complex" things about gun carriers. That doesn't make it right! I do NOT agree with this view (necessarily, it's true for some, certainly, but I don't think it's true for most). The fact that it's an ill-informed view doesn't change the fact that it's common and a view that echoes well in uninformed social circles.

There are more arguments to made on both sides. In my estimation, the negative outweighs the positive.

There is one thing I'm okay stating as a fact, though, or nearly so, though it technically be opinion. A man loudly citing statutes at police with wide eyes in a crowded area does not paint gun owners in a positive light, on balance.

I live in Wyoming. Open carry is very normal here. I see G26s and Kahr PM9s (odd choices when carried fully open, size not being an issue, but to each his own) all the time at restaurants and the store. Open carry is probably more normal here than almost anywhere in the country. I still choose to avoid it.

That's my choice, as open carry is the choice of my fellow Second Amendment advocates. I hope only that these folks don't end up doing more harm to the free exercise of our rights than they prevent. :)

Gunnut 45/454
06-28-2012, 00:06
SouthernBoyVA
Agreed ! I feel the same way and I have also had nothing but possitive encounters with the few LOE's I've enceountered while CC/OC. I guess it really does come down to location. I tend not to go to the big cities around here. No need and when I do I make it a point to stay of the LEO's radar if you know what I mean. As I do always any how.:supergrin:

Philo Beddoe
06-28-2012, 06:17
. Some nosy nanny obviously called the cops because they saw a bad scary gun in a holster and the police were obliged to look into it.

I suspect that a lot of cops make that part up as an excuse to stop te guy.

Bruce M
06-28-2012, 07:09
I suspect that a lot of cops make that part up as an excuse to stop te guy.
Probably not. If open carrying is rare enough to warrant further investigation or the person or circumstances look suspicious I doubt many officers would feel the need to make up a fictious complainant.

Arc Angel
06-28-2012, 07:18
Back in the late 70's, I serviced burglar and fire alarms at night to put myself through school. (I know a lot of you weren't born then. We didn't have cell phones and revolvers were the standard.) I was encouraged by the LEO's I worked with to be armed. Oftentimes I was their only possible backup, and they spent time training me to clear buildings, handle a firearm, etc. Their chief eventually issued me a NON-CONCEALED permit to carry, so I OC'd long before it was cool in Boulder County, a liberal anti-gun sort of place. Although I wore a company uniform, it was unremarkable and clearly designed to not be confused with a LEO uniform. There was no badge.

I OC'd 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. Every now and then I would encounter a LEO that I had not met previously, but none ever even commented on my gun or asked to see my permit. People were polite. Restaurants that I frequented would comp me meals. I walked into 7-11s late at night without incident. One 7-11 clerk told me he liked me hanging around; he felt safer. Only once in the roughly year and half I carried was I challenged. A fast food clerk told me that she wouldn't serve me because I was carrying a gun. I told her that I had a permit from the Chief of Police to legally carry and it was important for my job. She went ahead and served me, although I didn't show her my permit. In a friendly way, I pointed out to her that if I were some nut with a gun, it might not be a good idea to refuse to serve me. She agreed after she thought about it.

Most people just mind their own business, fortunately. I was surprised how little reaction OC got at that time.

I also went streaking long before it was the rage in Boulder, but that's another story.

That's an interesting narrative! It goes a long way towards highlighting the real problem that's being discussed in this thread: THE OVERALL SOCIAL CONTEXT WITHIN WHICH CONTEMPORARY (LARGELY URBAN) OPEN CARRY TAKES PLACE. Back in the late 1970's I'd already left college and been working for more than 10 years. In those days it was a different sort of world.

Social events never occur inside a vacuum; and the surrounding social and civil atmosphere in which these events occur must always be considered BEFORE pertinent individual behaviors might be recognized for what they most popularly represent. Back in the 1970’s there were no public (media) events like the pistol massacres at: Luby’s Cafeteria, (1991) Columbine High School, (1999) or Virginia Polytechnical Institute (2007). In fact, until the Giffords shooting, (2011) I am unable to think of a single congressman who’s ever been successfully gunned down at a local political rally. Sadly, however, in 2012 all that has now changed!

IN TODAY’S POPULAR MIND, A CIVILIAN WITH A GUN IS NO LONGER VIEWED AS BEING EITHER BENIGN OR ALTRUISTICALLY MOTIVATED - JUST THE OPPOSITE, IN FACT! OPEN CARRY ZEALOTS NEED TO GET SMART: USING A HANDGUN AS A, ‘POLITICAL STATEMENT’ IS NOT AN INTELLECTUAL PREMISE THAT’S GOING TO WORK - NOT IN TODAY’S WORLD.

Let’s face it: If the American public were conditioned to regard guns as, ‘positive political statements’ then Mitt Romney and Barack Obama would, both, be waving them around above their heads (à la Charlton Heston) at every political rally. Guns (and what can be done with a gun) are scary to most people; and the sooner ALL of us who carry and use guns, everyday, accept this REALITY the better off ALL law abiding gunmen are going to be. I’ve said it before; and I’ll say it again: There ARE anti-Second Amendment politicians out there who - I am certain - actually enjoy working provisions like open carry into regional gun laws. The premise is simple: If you can’t beat ‘um then help ‘um to screw themselves, instead.

You’ve got to, ‘play a better game’, people. There are strong national AND international movements afoot to ban public ownership and use of MOST firearms. American gun owners simply don’t have the numbers, the political presence, or media influence to persuade the vast majority of American families to accept the presence of openly armed civilians in their midst. Anyone who thinks he can make a positive, ‘social statement’ by walking into a crowded restaurant or shopping mall while sporting an exposed sidearm is doing both himself and ALL OTHER GUNMEN a huge public disservice.

It’s not about whether or not a certain demonstrative act is legal to perform in public. A better standard to measure by is whether or not a particular social behavior is practical. (This is, ‘Why’ thoughtful social manners are, and shall continue to be, useful.) Look, if it’s no longer realistic to display the Holy Bible in public (and it’s not!) what makes anyone think displaying a gun is going to be OK? In case someone hasn’t noticed, in contemporary America, ‘the Holy Bible and guns’ are popularly considered to be unnecessary social anachronisms.

Yesterday, we used to have the Ten Commandments; today, we have surveillance cameras and body cavity searches; Guns are now seen as being most applicable to law enforcement or, under rigidly controlled conditions, to hunters. As for the Holy Bible, ....... ? Well, it’s for: simple minds, Sunday mornings, and primary usage inside a church. (Ask Obama. :supergrin: ) As American gunmen we shouldn’t be pushing - we shouldn’t be encouraging - social behaviors which stand out in such glaring dialectical opposition to known popular events or the organized news media’s uniform and highly consistent interpretations of those events.

Just because someone is right does NOT mean that he’s going to win. If you look at history many men who were right also weren’t appreciated as such while they were still breathing and alive. Concealed, armed, and ready trumps open, disarmed, and disabled every time. Guns aren’t about public education; neither do they make useful political statements about anything. (Except, perhaps, civil rebellion which is, I am certain, exactly how many of today’s politicians view firearms.) Socially speaking, guns are for stopping dangerous personal threats by ending physical life. No savvy gunman should ever treat a gun in any other way.

DScottHewitt
06-28-2012, 08:10
I suspect that a lot of cops make that part up as an excuse to stop te guy.

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/7509/hater.jpg
By dscotthewitt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dscotthewitt) at 2012-06-26



Seriously, though. That is the kind of comment that makes one sound anti-LEO. Which closes about 50% of the ears {eyes} your words are falling on.

Just saying......

J_Rico
06-28-2012, 08:31
You're quite welcome. Thank you for appreciating it. :)




Again, thank you.



You know what? I actually agree with you. And not in the snarky forum-debate sense, where I'm acting nice to lead into an attack on you. I phrased myself poorly in several parts of my post.

It was wrong of me to suggest that no advantage is posted by open carry. Indeed, that would be asinine. I can think of two certain advantages:

1.) Carrying a full-size weapon - who wouldn't prefer 17+1 from a G17 as opposed to 10+1 from a G26, in addition to more barrel length for bullet velocity and a bigger grip?

2.) Faster access - instant, open access will beat even the best concealment rigs, even if only by a small bit.

I'll even add a third, though I disagree with it.

3.) The potential to familiarize the general public with seeing weapons, and make sure they see it's completely legal.

Rather, what I should have said was that - yes, in my opinion, as you rightly point out :) - the disadvantages of the method substantially outweigh the advantages. Disadvantages which include:

1.) Destroying the element of surprise - in other words, the criminal robbing the bank or preparing for the shooting spree sees you first in a crowd and may prioritize his targeting accordingly.

2.) The potential for poor retention. Will an untrained open carrier (because let's face it, most are probably untrained, just like most concealed carriers are probably untrained) be prepared to repel an immediate, surprise assault meant to disarm him? Even trained police officers lose this fight.

3.) The potential for a negative interaction with police. While a positive interaction is possible, it's not likely at all in some regions. As YouTube shows us, the interactions can grow heated and hostile fast. Indeed, some of the cop-baiting 'Tubers seem to be going for this result.

4.) The potential for a negative impression on fellow citizens. I doubt many on the forum agree with this, but the average Joe Citizen thinks a lot of media-influenced "oh, a cowboy with a God complex" things about gun carriers. That doesn't make it right! I do NOT agree with this view (necessarily, it's true for some, certainly, but I don't think it's true for most). The fact that it's an ill-informed view doesn't change the fact that it's common and a view that echoes well in uninformed social circles.

There are more arguments to made on both sides. In my estimation, the negative outweighs the positive.

There is one thing I'm okay stating as a fact, though, or nearly so, though it technically be opinion. A man loudly citing statutes at police with wide eyes in a crowded area does not paint gun owners in a positive light, on balance.

I live in Wyoming. Open carry is very normal here. I see G26s and Kahr PM9s (odd choices when carried fully open, size not being an issue, but to each his own) all the time at restaurants and the store. Open carry is probably more normal here than almost anywhere in the country. I still choose to avoid it.

That's my choice, as open carry is the choice of my fellow Second Amendment advocates. I hope only that these folks don't end up doing more harm to the free exercise of our rights than they prevent. :)

LawScholar,

Thanks for such a reasoned reply. My opinion might be bit different on a few points, but I respect the fact that you have looked at both sides and chosen the option that best fits you.
I doubt if I will ever OC in an urban setting, but I agree it should be legal and I have great respect for those that do so in a calm, mature fashion. These people have my full support. Sadly, I agree that there are those exercising their right to OC in a manner that is harmful to the image of gun owners.
I sincerely appreciate your polite response.

Rico

Green_Manelishi
06-28-2012, 09:15
I suspect that a lot of cops make that part up as an excuse to stop te guy.

Probably not in Maine.

noway
06-28-2012, 10:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfdEbe7e9GE&feature=player_embedded

:whistling:

Even tho I'm not a fan of OC, this is very strange how our laws and specifically those enforce by the police are different. Think about this guy now and and let's say the wild west 200+ years ago

A peace keeper would NOT stop a individual to determine if he/she was a feom just because he was open displaying a six-shooter or rifle. The OC should file a lawsuit on the PD actions just to remind them of their responsibility to honors our rights.

dpadams6
06-28-2012, 11:23
Very well said arc angel.

TBO
06-28-2012, 13:24
Even tho I'm not a fan of OC, this is very strange how our laws and specifically those enforce by the police are different. Think about this guy now and and let's say the wild west 200+ years ago

A peace keeper would NOT stop a individual to determine if he/she was a feom just because he was open displaying a six-shooter or rifle. The OC should file a lawsuit on the PD actions just to remind them of their responsibility to honors our rights.

Are you aware that back then many Towns barred carry of firearms, period.

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

DScottHewitt
06-28-2012, 13:34
Are you aware that back then many Towns barred carry of firearms, period.

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

You're thinking about 100 years ago. He said "200 plus years ago".

devildog66
06-28-2012, 18:25
Good for him. He did the right thing no matter how discomforting it was. We need more people like this gentlemen.

TBO
06-28-2012, 18:39
You're thinking about 100 years ago. He said "200 plus years ago".

Are you aware that 10,000 years ago there wasn't a single law against firearms?

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

boyscout399
06-28-2012, 18:40
Thanks for your support everyone. Sorry I just saw the thread now. It's been quite hectic. I want to follow up for you guys. I filed an official complaint with the department for a 4th Amendment violation and it's in the process of being investigated. I've been on the news and got a full page in a local paper. I'm not a lawsuit type person so I doubt a lawsuit will result.

Here's the news story: http://www.wgme.com/news/top-stories/stories/wgme_vid_12451.shtml

YtownGlock
06-28-2012, 20:44
I occasionally open carry, but very rarely do I do it. When I do, I am never harassed by other citizens or LEOs. I do see, but very rarely, other citizens open carry.

Myself as well as the other OCers I have seen have one thing in common, none of us walk around with a camera or a smart phone out ready to record. It is my firm personal belief that if you purposely venture out of your home both open carrying and camera in hand, chances are you are striving for that interaction with LE hoping that they don't know the laws and so you can bash them by citing laws and court cases and then post the footage on youtube for the whole world to see, further belittling the interacting officers and their department.

I support both Open Carry and Concealed Carry, not the dbags and showoffs that turn it into a circus.

For the record, if I am ever stopped while OCing by LE because they received a call about a man with a gun and they ask me to present ID , I will gladly present my DL and CHL. I have nothing to hide, the faster I comply the faster I can go about my business. No sense turning a two minute meet and greet into a 10 minute performance.

@Boyscout, I'm sorry you went trough what you did. SOME Police officers really need to be better educated on the gun laws in their state regarding open carry. Where I live it doesnt seem to be much of a problem.

boyscout399
06-28-2012, 20:55
I occasionally open carry, but very rarely do I do it. When I do, I am never harassed by other citizens or LEOs. I do see, but very rarely, other citizens open carry.

Myself as well as the other OCers I have seen have one thing in common, none of us walk around with a camera or a smart phone out ready to record. It is my firm personal belief that if you purposely venture out of your home both open carrying and camera in hand, chances are you are striving for that interaction with LE hoping that they don't know the laws and so you can bash them by citing laws and court cases and then post the footage on youtube for the whole world to see, further belittling the interacting officers and their department.

I support both Open Carry and Concealed Carry, not the dbags and showoffs that turn it into a circus.

For the record, if I am ever stopped while OCing by LE because they received a call about a man with a gun and they ask me to present ID , I will gladly present my DL and CHL. I have nothing to hide, the faster I comply the faster I can go about my business. No sense turning a two minute meet and greet into a 10 minute performance.

The phone was in my pocket

YtownGlock
06-28-2012, 20:57
The phone was in my pocket

Gotcha, I didn't mean any disrespect. Just a lot of videos out there of people already recording before LE even begins to interact with them.

Waboom!!
06-28-2012, 21:15
this hurts our carry cause.

JuneyBooney
06-28-2012, 21:58
Thanks for your support everyone. Sorry I just saw the thread now. It's been quite hectic. I want to follow up for you guys. I filed an official complaint with the department for a 4th Amendment violation and it's in the process of being investigated. I've been on the news and got a full page in a local paper. I'm not a lawsuit type person so I doubt a lawsuit will result.

Here's the news story: http://www.wgme.com/news/top-stories/stories/wgme_vid_12451.shtml

You did good by citing case law to the leo. That is a good thing. Many people trust leo to know everything and they don't so it did help you. The problem with a lawsuit is that you have to show damages and the courts normally only give money to certain groups of people.

Arc Angel
06-29-2012, 04:55
Thanks for your support everyone. Sorry I just saw the thread now. It's been quite hectic. I want to follow up for you guys. I filed an official complaint with the department for a 4th Amendment violation and it's in the process of being investigated. I've been on the news and got a full page in a local paper. I'm not a lawsuit type person so I doubt a lawsuit will result.

Here's the news story: http://www.wgme.com/news/top-stories/stories/wgme_vid_12451.shtml

:freak: That's really great! Like those officers don't have careers and families of their own to be responsible for. If nothing else at least you got the attention you so desperately crave. (Too bad Mommy didn't hold you more while you were growing up, huh!)

What makes you think I don't want the police to either respond to or closely investigate reports about a, 'man with a gun'? Those officers treated you as if you were, 'golden'; and, for your part, all you're doing is a great job of making life in the civilian sector far less safe than it used to be for everyone - Including yourself. (One of those officers actually told you that during the interview!) :upeyes:

My suggestions are for you to take your, 'socio-political junk' off the street, and off the (frequently screwed up) internet too. Find a genuinely constructive way to attract attention, and grow the Hell up. I don't want my world to be less safe. Neither do I want to face the probability that I'll, someday, need to use my own pistol because you and other nitwits like you enjoy playing, 'Second Amendment gun games' with the local police.

Inside the public scenario you have created nobody is trying to take your Second Amendment rights away. Instead, YOU are waving your Second Amendment rights (and an exposed sidearm) in other peoples' faces. That's NOT what civilian carry and suburban life is supposed to be about. Sure, here, on an internet gun forum I realize you'll get a lot of, 'atta boys'; but, as I'm certain you already realize, out in the real world public reaction is going to be widely divided.

Like I said: If you're done, now, playing with the cops and cameras - and your lust for attention has been (at least for the moment) satisfied - then it's better for everyone if you just grow the Hell up and cut it out. If you want to be a hero try joining the Army. The Army will give you a couple of guns, allow you to openly carry them in public, and your time and efforts may be more constructively spent - You might even win a metal! :clown:

Kevin108
06-29-2012, 05:32
The Army will give you a couple of guns, allow you to openly carry them in public, and your time and efforts may be more constructively spent - You might even win a metal! :clown:
So only the police and military should be able to open carry? Thanks for supporting those who would diminish our rights. With pro-gunners like you, who needs antis?

dpadams6
06-29-2012, 06:05
this hurts our carry cause.

"We are our own worst enemy" More of this, and quicker it will take to make it illegal. Boyscout, your actually hurting your own cause and don't even realize it.

Sam Spade
06-29-2012, 06:54
To paraphrase and borrow:

We have people with very schizophrenic views: that the environment is so dangerous that open carry is appropriate to deter crime, yet those around them shouldn't be at all concerned when they see a man displaying a gun.

I absolutely guarantee you that everyone here goes to a state of heightened alert when they see an armed man in public. Why is there any surprise, or offense taken, when cops investigate what brings the general public into heightened alert?

racerford
06-29-2012, 07:33
Cover your **** up! If you want to show how tough and bad ass you are by displaying, in public, a loaded firearm on your hip become a LEO and try wearing the uniform awhile.

Concealed carrying works to your benefit for many reasons.
It's interesting that the guys who like to flaunt their machismo via open "look at me" carry are never LEO or from a military specialized unit such as Rangers or SEALs.

Of course it is never an issue for them, they are special citizens with special privileges and courtesies. They would flash their badge and be on their way.

Kevin108
06-29-2012, 07:40
I absolutely guarantee you that everyone here goes to a state of heightened alert when they see an armed man in public.
I disagree entirely. To borrow a metaphor many people get carried away with, it relaxes me to know I am in the presence of at least one other "sheepdog."

racerford
06-29-2012, 08:09
........ Look, if it’s no longer realistic to display the Holy Bible in public (and it’s not!) what makes anyone think displaying a gun is going to be OK? In case someone hasn’t noticed, in contemporary America, ‘the Holy Bible and guns’ are popularly considered to be unnecessary social anachronisms.

........ As for the Holy Bible, ....... ? Well, it’s for: simple minds, Sunday mornings, and primary usage inside a church. .......

Now your saying we shouldn't open carry Bible's?

I don't carry a Bible and don't even open one that often. But that statement is just an example of of how silly the world you think you live in has become. I am normally nice and strive to be non-offensive. However this is just silly. PC gone wild. No one has a RIGHT to not be offended. If I want to open carry a Bible what business is it of anyone else? Now maybe if I started sticking in people's faces (literally) and shouting how they should repent or they will go to the Devil, then maybe that would be an issue. On the gun side this might equate to "brandishing" (which I might add the person in the OP was not), but even then so what move along, if the Bible holder chased them down the street screaming, then maybe it might be stalking or something.

I am not that interested in curtailing my activities to that extent to keep from offending overly sensitive people. In fact I am offended at their trying to curtail my rights. They should stop offending me. These "liberals" seem to be happy to curtail people's rights. I thought they were the ones supporting 'civil liberties". What a topsy turvy world.


I guess the general public needs to get over themselves and stop being so self centered and be respectful of other people's RIGHTS instead of their own selfish desires.

RussP
06-29-2012, 08:16
I disagree entirely. To borrow a metaphor many people get carried away with, it relaxes me to know I am in the presence of at least one other "sheepdog."How do you know that with absolute certainty?

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 08:28
"We are our own worst enemy" More of this, and quicker it will take to make it illegal. Boyscout, your actually hurting your own cause and don't even realize it.

I disagree. I think that carrying concealed does nothing for our cause. Nobody cares about hidden guns, therefore, the debate never comes up and our rights never get furthered. Open carry has brought a spotlight on the right to self defense and has directly led to Arizona and Wyoming passing Constitutional Carry.

In Maine, my open carrying and pressing the issue with my state senators and representatives directly resulted in the recent passage of two pro gun owner laws in Maine. I wrote the first draft of the legislation that now allows people to carry firearms into state parks. The bill was sponsored, amended, and passed into law.

If I would not have open carried, lawmakers would have never become aware of the issue and it never would have been corrected.

I have 5 reasons why open carry is my preferred method of carry. OC has been proven to deter criminals. OC is more comfortable. OC allows carrying a larger, more effective firearm. OC is faster to access. OC is safer because of less chance of snagging in clothing during drawing or reholstering.

I really don't think this should be a debate about open carry though. The fact is that open carry is legal in 42 states. The issue should be focused on the 4th Amendment issues of an officer that, when pressed, can't even MAKE UP a crime he thinks I'm going to commit...

Green_Manelishi
06-29-2012, 08:40
I have 5 reasons why open carry is my preferred method of carry.

OC has been proven to deter criminals.


Evidence?


OC is more comfortable.


Good holster = comfort regardless.


OC allows carrying a larger, more effective firearm.


For years I carried a 1911A1, concealed. I dare say that was large, and probably a very effective firearm.


OC is faster to access.


Than? The other guy? Yourself from concealment?


OC is safer because of less chance of snagging in clothing during drawing or reholstering.


I'd encourage you to make sure nothing snags.


I really don't think this should be a debate about open carry though. The fact is that open carry is legal in 42 states. The issue should be focused on the 4th Amendment issues of an officer that, when pressed, can't even MAKE UP a crime he thinks I'm going to commit...

Sadly it is the debate. Portland, ME is crawling with incomers and people from away on summer holiday at their posh digs. You walking around with a gun on your hip simply knots their knickers and they call the police. Then you start quoting case law to the officer and the first thing he probably thinks is "Oh, great a ... lawyer." Youlda been on your way PDQ if you'ld simply answered his questions. Then he'd report back you were legal, a resident and all.

Jon_R
06-29-2012, 08:55
I have 5 reasons why open carry is my preferred method of carry.

He has decided for himself. If you have decided for yourself then so be it. I didn't think he was trying to tell you why your way is wrong but seems you are telling him his way is wrong.

I have a way I like to clean my kitchen. It might be different then your way which is fine at least to me. Do you want to tell me why my way is wrong or that I could actually clean my kitchen your way and it is the right way?

It is just what I thought when I read your reply.


Evidence?



Good holster = comfort regardless.



For years I carried a 1911A1, concealed. I dare say that was large, and probably a very effective firearm.



Than? The other guy? Yourself from concealment?



I'd encourage you to make sure nothing snags.

RussP
06-29-2012, 09:01
To paraphrase and borrow:

We have people with very schizophrenic views: that the environment is so dangerous that open carry is appropriate to deter crime, yet those around them shouldn't be at all concerned when they see a man displaying a gun.So, Sam, are you saying that the intent is to intimidate one segment of the population, but not another? In other words, "You should not be intimidated by my weapon unless you intend me harm."I absolutely guarantee you that everyone here goes to a state of heightened alert when they see an armed man in public. Why is there any surprise, or offense taken, when cops investigate what brings the general public into heightened alert?The degree of increased alert will vary from person to person, location to location and situation to situation. In Kevin108's case, he actually relaxes. He is on one end of that response spectrum.

RussP
06-29-2012, 09:11
If I would not have open carried, lawmakers would have never become aware of the issue and it never would have been corrected.What if you would have simply written the legislation and pursued its passage without open carrying? What influence did your open carrying have on passage of that legislation?

Be specific, please. Who told you your open carrying influenced them to pass the legislation.

Green_Manelishi
06-29-2012, 09:18
I have a way I like to clean my kitchen. It might be different then your way which is fine at least to me. Do you want to tell me why my way is wrong or that I could actually clean my kitchen your way and it is the right way?


What is the probability your method of cleaning utensils will cause the average, ignorant, man-on-the-street to call the Police and report "man cleaning utensils"?

RussP
06-29-2012, 09:32
OC has been proven to deter criminals.Evidence?Anecdotal, but on 6 occasions my open carry did deter others from committing crimes. One was confirmed by local PD.

Car pulled up in front of the local BP station's front door. Three guys get out and come inside. Two start talking loudly, drawing attention. The third comes back to the beer cooler and takes two 24-packs of Dos Equis out. He looks up, sees my pistol, puts the beer down and goes to the other two, says something and all three leave.

A couple hours later, same MO, three guys steal 2 24-packs of Dos Equis from a WaWa store a couple miles down the road. Cops caught them. Same guys.

Another was a guy trying to steal a package of hot dogs from the grocery store. They were jammed into his front jean pocket, the corner showing just a little. He was in the checkout line next over from me. He saw me looking at his pocket. He saw my pistol. He left the line, then came back without the hot dogs.

Yeah, not the sensational, "I prevented a shootout," people want to read, but the other 4 might have been. When the people saw my pistol, they left without buying anything. All 4 times the people got into cars parked directly in front of the convenience store.

So, yeah, OC has a deterrent value. It isn't why I OC on occasion, it's just an unintended consequence.

RussP
06-29-2012, 09:40
Sadly it is the debate. Portland, ME is crawling with incomers and people from away on summer holiday at their posh digs. You walking around with a gun on your hip simply knots their knickers and they call the police. I find it generally offensive when incomers and people from away, as you call them, infringe on my doing what is legal in my state.

I avoid those areas here in Virginia when possible.

Do you not find that more offensive than boyscout399 acting legally?

RussP
06-29-2012, 09:45
I have a way I like to clean my kitchen. It might be different then your way which is fine at least to me. Do you want to tell me why my way is wrong or that I could actually clean my kitchen your way and it is the right way?What is the probability your method of cleaning utensils will cause the average, ignorant, man-on-the-street to call the Police and report "man cleaning utensils"?You changed the context of Jon's statement.Do you want to tell me why my way is wrong or that I could actually clean my kitchen your way and it is the right way?Answer?

Jon_R
06-29-2012, 09:47
What is the probability your method of cleaning utensils will cause the average, ignorant, man-on-the-street to call the Police and report "man cleaning utensils"?

That is a pretty high burden to carry. Don't do anything that has a probability of an ignorant man not understanding.

I just got some new neighbors accross the street with Illinois plates possibly even from Chicago. Only a matter of time before they see me heading to or from the range with all my gear or on my property open carrying for whatever reason. It is what it is. I am not going to change my SOP because they MIGHT be ignorant of the laws in my area.

OlliesRevenge
06-29-2012, 09:52
Why is there any surprise, or offense taken, when cops investigate what brings the general public into heightened alert?

I don't believe there would have been any surprise or offense taken had Officer J. McDonald simply 'contacted' the OC'er, rather than immediately detaining him (which he had no right to do, as cited by our OC'ing Law Student in US v DeBerry (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1027378.html) -- see Note).

There is some hypocrisy afoot here. The LE types (at least the knowledgeable one's like you) will work hard to shepardize case law to justify actions that empower them over citizens. When citizens do the exact same thing (God Forbid) to empower themselves, and then cite that case law on the street, the LE types brand them as "Nuts".

What a surprise! LEO's don't like it when things don't work out for them. Many of us ordinary citizens, however, recognize this type of encounter for what it is -- Good for our Republic. In addition, it will make better LEO's out of the Portland Maine PD (provided they have a good "lessons learned" department wide training program).

Bottom line: Officer J. McDonald knowing the law, and adhering to it's limitations -- would have prevented this.

Also in the video: We encounter a firearm safety issue -- Officer McDonald apparently sweeps OC'er with his own gun, and the debating denizens of GT fail to mention it at least once that I could see in 199 posts (pardon me if I missed it).


Note: US v DeBerry (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1027378.html) is an interesting read. The Find Law page I linked to appears not to support our OC'ing law student's analysis until the very end (I'm no lawyer though). I'd be interested to hear some debate on this.

Jon_R
06-29-2012, 09:57
To paraphrase and borrow:

We have people with very schizophrenic views: that the environment is so dangerous that open carry is appropriate to deter crime, yet those around them shouldn't be at all concerned when they see a man displaying a gun.

I absolutely guarantee you that everyone here goes to a state of heightened alert when they see an armed man in public. Why is there any surprise, or offense taken, when cops investigate what brings the general public into heightened alert?

I just assume everyone is carrying a gun whether I see it or not. Over 800K permits in my state plus the state accepts over 30 out of state permits, plus plenty carrying illegally, etc.... I just assume all are armed and act accordingly with the plan to react if needed to something more but I don't live my life on the edge of combat even though I assume guns are around me carried by strangers.

A holstered gun is a safe gun and just one factor to take into account in assessing a situation and I assume everyone I meet or cross paths with has one. If they try and kill me with it I will try and stop them.

Sam Spade
06-29-2012, 10:01
So, Sam, are you saying that the intent is to intimidate one segment of the population, but not another? In other words, "You should not be intimidated by my weapon unless you intend me harm."The degree of increased alert will vary from person to person, location to location and situation to situation. In Kevin108's case, he actually relaxes. He is on one end of that response spectrum.

I stand corrected on my blanket statement; I should know better than to make such.

The intimidation phrasing is a good one, IMO. The problem is that selective intimidation is not possible, and such an OCer is relying on the populace to determine his intent when he's an unknown. That's unreasonable; even at the national level where we have all sorts of skills and assets, we pay more attention to others' capabilities than their intent.

One of the first hallmarks of civilization as the frontier was expanded was the ban on OC. At the risk of another failure of blanket statements, I can't imagine that many would allow such a visibly armed unknown person into their home. So there's a sting cultural bias against this act of (perhaps selective) intimidation.

And yes, I do go to a higher alert in the presence of armed strangers. Polite, professional (even on my own time), but.

IhRedrider
06-29-2012, 10:02
The world is full of fryers and those who will capitulate to anyone who makes them uncomfortable. IF you chose to be in that group, that is your business. But if you chose that, what business is it of yours if others chose a different route.

If you feel OC is not the way YOU need to proceed, than don't OC.

If you feel OC is the way YOU need to proceed, than OC.

I personally wish that EVERYONE would OC 100% of the time, everyone would be much nice to one another and mind their own business. BUT, what I wish, hope for, am afraid of, like, dislike, blah blah blah, is entirely irrelevant when it comes to what OTHER people do. SOOOOO.

OC, CC, don't carry, it is your choice what you do.

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 11:19
What if you would have simply written the legislation and pursued its passage without open carrying? What influence did your open carrying have on passage of that legislation?

Be specific, please. Who told you your open carrying influenced them to pass the legislation.

The legislation came to pass after I had open carried and been arrested back in 2008. After that incident, the firearms community all woke up and got together to have a huge rally in Portland in 2009. After that rally, which was extensively covered on the news in Maine, I began talking to my congressmen. I believe that if the issue was not making the news, those congressmen would not have advanced these bills. However, since the rally, they got a lot more pressure from more than just myself to act to expand gun rights in Maine. Without open carry, there would have been no rally. Without the rally there would have been no pressure on the legislature to act.

RussP
06-29-2012, 11:24
The legislation came to pass after I had open carried and been arrested back in 2008. After that incident, the firearms community all woke up and got together to have a huge rally in Portland in 2009. After that rally, which was extensively covered on the news in Maine, I began talking to my congressmen. I believe that if the issue was not making the news, those congressmen would not have advanced these bills. However, since the rally, they got a lot more pressure from more than just myself to act to expand gun rights in Maine. Without open carry, there would have been no rally. Without the rally there would have been no pressure on the legislature to act.2008, the good ol' days...:supergrin:

Thanks for the response. :thumbsup:

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 11:31
Evidence?



Good holster = comfort regardless.

I have an ileostomy. I have good holsters. The open carry holsters are more comfortable.

For years I carried a 1911A1, concealed. I dare say that was large, and probably a very effective firearm.

I'm 5'11" and 130lbs. I wear fairly tight fitting t-shirts. Since it's legal, I do not have to alter my wardrobe to hide my firearm. It's my choice.



Than? The other guy? Yourself from concealment?

Than myself. Generally most people's draw time is about .5 to 1 second slower from concealment. Arguing that it's just as fast from concealment is lying to yourself.

I'd encourage you to make sure nothing snags.

Nobody purposely has a negligent discharge. Especially if the adrenaline is pumping after you just shot someone. I'd rather have the open carry holster to give that advantage, even if the advantage is only 1 or 2 percent.



Sadly it is the debate. Portland, ME is crawling with incomers and people from away on summer holiday at their posh digs. You walking around with a gun on your hip simply knots their knickers and they call the police. Then you start quoting case law to the officer and the first thing he probably thinks is "Oh, great a ... lawyer." Youlda been on your way PDQ if you'ld simply answered his questions. Then he'd report back you were legal, a resident and all.

I don't know if you've ever been to Portland, ME. But I do know that even in Portland, I get FAR more positive comments than I do negative ones whenever I'm in the city. Business owners thank me. People stop me on the street and ask questions and thank me for doing this. I almost never get a negative comment from anyone when I'm in public. The only negative comments I get are from anti-gun people on the internet, and from police.

Another point. If concealed carry has all the benefits some people say it has, and open carry has no benefits at all, then why do police in uniform open carry? If concealed carry is just as fast to access the firearm, why do they not conceal? If open carry is not a deterrent, why don't they conceal? If it's just as comfortable and easy to carry a full size gun concealed, then how come every police officer open carries? To me it is obvious that OC has benefits that CC cannot provide.

If YOU choose to CC, that's great for you. But that's a personal decision for you and you only to make. If I choose to OC as the law allows me to do, why do you ridicule me for it?

racerford
06-29-2012, 11:34
I would like to ask the LEOs a question. How of the already convicted felons you stop are open carrying in a proper on the belt retention type holster? Not some person sloppily concealing a weapon.

Sam Spade
06-29-2012, 11:42
I don't know if you've ever been to Portland, ME. But I do know that even in Portland, I get FAR more positive comments than I do negative ones whenever I'm in the city. Business owners thank me. People stop me on the street and ask questions and thank me for doing this. I almost never get a negative comment from anyone when I'm in public. The only negative comments I get are from anti-gun people on the internet, and police.


I've posted elsewhere on the board on my OC views and reasons. Here, I only wish to address logic:

You've posted a classic example of selection bias. The people offended or intimidated by your open carry simply don't approach you. They go their own way, or call the police. You can't argue a mass approval of your choice from a sample like this. It's like me arguing that all those Internal Affairs complaints should be disregarded since no one confronts me in person.

Again, I'm not arguing your reasons for OC, just cautioning against bias in data.

JuneyBooney
06-29-2012, 12:33
I would like to ask the LEOs a question. How of the already convicted felons you stop are open carrying in a proper on the belt retention type holster? Not some person sloppily concealing a weapon.

I would tend to agree with you but if you view laws that have changed over the years we are probably all felons for one thing or the other. :dunno:But I do agree that I would tend to think that most violent felons don't open carry at all.

RussP
06-29-2012, 12:40
I don't know if you've ever been to Portland, ME. But I do know that even in Portland, I get FAR more positive comments than I do negative ones whenever I'm in the city. Business owners thank me. People stop me on the street and ask questions and thank me for doing this. I almost never get a negative comment from anyone when I'm in public. The only negative comments I get are from anti-gun people on the internet, and from police.

I've posted elsewhere on the board on my OC views and reasons. Here, I only wish to address logic:

You've posted a classic example of selection bias. The people offended or intimidated by your open carry simply don't approach you. They go their own way, or call the police. You can't argue a mass approval of your choice from a sample like this. It's like me arguing that all those Internal Affairs complaints should be disregarded since no one confronts me in person.

Again, I'm not arguing your reasons for OC, just cautioning against bias in data.Sam beat me to this, but I still want to comment.

Whom do you believe will contact more people about seeing you carrying? Will it be those that approach you and compliments you, or will it be those who have a negative reaction?

Sometimes, here on GT, we discuss how we read more about the negative OC encounters than we do the positive OC encounters. I can tell you that here in CI the threads about pleasant encounters with law enforcement have very much lower post counts than negative ones.

I believe those with negative reactions are going to tell more people about you than those who approach you. Then those people will tell others...on and on.

We who open carry do not know how many people we negatively influence. Me? In ten years I have only had two people comment negatively to me about my open carry.

RussP
06-29-2012, 12:49
Another point. If concealed carry has all the benefits some people say it has, and open carry has no benefits at all, then why do police in uniform open carry? If concealed carry is just as fast to access the firearm, why do they not conceal? If open carry is not a deterrent, why don't they conceal? If it's just as comfortable and easy to carry a full size gun concealed, then how come every police officer open carries? To me it is obvious that OC has benefits that CC cannot provide.That is just embarrassing, boyscout...:faint:

RussP
06-29-2012, 12:51
I would like to ask the LEOs a question. How of the already convicted felons you stop are open carrying in a proper on the belt retention type holster? Not some person sloppily concealing a weapon.Bad question for the reason in bold.

TheExplorer
06-29-2012, 13:04
This may be a dumb question, but are CC permits and OC permits the same thing? My state is listed as OC friendly unless OC'ing in a vehicle, then you must have a permit. Permit for that is defined as "not yet determined". Does the CC permit cover both?

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 13:04
I don't believe there would have been any surprise or offense taken had Officer J. McDonald simply 'contacted' the OC'er, rather than immediately detaining him (which he had no right to do, as cited by our OC'ing Law Student in US v DeBerry (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1027378.html) -- see Note).

There is some hypocrisy afoot here. The LE types (at least the knowledgeable one's like you) will work hard to shepardize case law to justify actions that empower them over citizens. When citizens do the exact same thing (God Forbid) to empower themselves, and then cite that case law on the street, the LE types brand them as "Nuts".

What a surprise! LEO's don't like it when things don't work out for them. Many of us ordinary citizens, however, recognize this type of encounter for what it is -- Good for our Republic. In addition, it will make better LEO's out of the Portland Maine PD (provided they have a good "lessons learned" department wide training program).

Bottom line: Officer J. McDonald knowing the law, and adhering to it's limitations -- would have prevented this.

Also in the video: We encounter a firearm safety issue -- Officer McDonald apparently sweeps OC'er with his own gun, and the debating denizens of GT fail to mention it at least once that I could see in 199 posts (pardon me if I missed it).


Note: US v DeBerry (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1027378.html) is an interesting read. The Find Law page I linked to appears not to support our OC'ing law student's analysis until the very end (I'm no lawyer though). I'd be interested to hear some debate on this.

Just to be clear. I'm not a law student. The person that re posted my video mis-stated that.

Yes, the concurring opinion at the end of the DeBerry decision is the relevant precedent. The difference between the DeBerry situation and my own is that DeBerry was carrying in Illinois where it is illegal to carry a firearm, therefore there was a suspicion of crime. The concurring opinion says that the case would have turned out differently in a state that allows the carrying of firearms because then all the officer would have is a report of someone carrying a legal item, and it doesn't matter whether that item is a cell phone, a pager, or a firearm.

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 13:06
This may be a dumb question, but are CC permits and OC permits the same thing? My state is listed as OC friendly unless OC'ing in a vehicle, then you must have a permit. Permit for that is defined as "not yet determined". Does the CC permit cover both?

Generally yes. 26 states allow open carrying without any sort of permit. Getting a permit does not suddenly make OCing prohibited. Check your local laws. This is my opinion. I am not a lawyer.

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 13:09
That is just embarrassing, boyscout...:faint:

Why is it embarrassing? I think it's a valid point. Many people say that open carry has no value at all, and that concealed carry is the only logical choice. I don't buy that argument. If concealing has all of these benefits, and open carry has no benefits at all, then why don't police conceal carry? Why is that not a valid question? If it's good for the police, why is it not equally as good for any other citizen?

Jon_R
06-29-2012, 13:13
This may be a dumb question, but are CC permits and OC permits the same thing? My state is listed as OC friendly unless OC'ing in a vehicle, then you must have a permit. Permit for that is defined as "not yet determined". Does the CC permit cover both?

It helps if you share your state as it is all state specific.

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 13:14
I've posted elsewhere on the board on my OC views and reasons. Here, I only wish to address logic:

You've posted a classic example of selection bias. The people offended or intimidated by your open carry simply don't approach you. They go their own way, or call the police. You can't argue a mass approval of your choice from a sample like this. It's like me arguing that all those Internal Affairs complaints should be disregarded since no one confronts me in person.

Again, I'm not arguing your reasons for OC, just cautioning against bias in data.

I would argue though, that if it was in fact such a problem as the police allege that it is, then there would be far MORE calls to the police. I've been open carrying for four years. Whenever I get stopped, it's because ONE person called the police. It's not like they're getting flooded with calls. And if the negative reaction is small enough that they don't believe it's worth contacting the police or saying anything, then it's really not that bad of an experience for them, and perhaps over time, as they see more people carrying and not doing anything wrong, their opinions will change.

TheExplorer
06-29-2012, 13:15
Generally yes. 26 states allow open carrying without any sort of permit. Getting a permit does not suddenly make OCing prohibited. Check your local laws. This is my opinion. I am not a lawyer.

Nothing is ever straightforward. This video shows asking the cops is useless. I guess you need to do your own research on everything.

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 13:21
Sam beat me to this, but I still want to comment.

Whom do you believe will contact more people about seeing you carrying? Will it be those that approach you and compliments you, or will it be those who have a negative reaction?



That is a valid point, but to me, not a compelling one. I am a principled person. I honestly have no desire to appease anyone who is fundamentally opposed to something that I care deeply about. If you have the right spelled out in law that open carry is a legal and acceptable activity, but are prevented or pressured from doing it because it is not "socially acceptable" or "politically correct" then does the right really exist at all?

I think California proves this point very well. For many years unloaded open carry was legal, but no one did it, so the right really didn't exist because the pressures of the public made it unacceptable. When people started actually doing it, they outlawed it, further proving that the right never really existed in the first place.

Think of it this way. If it's legal to fish salmon, but you're told that no one is allowed to fish salmon because if you fish salmon then the legislature will make it illegal. So no one actually does fish salmon, then does it really matter that it's legal? And if no one is allowed to do it when it is legal, does it matter if they make it illegal. The result is the same, no one is allowed to fish salmon because of peer pressure, or because of law.

TBO
06-29-2012, 13:37
That is a valid point, but to me, not a compelling one. I am a principled person. I honestly have no desire to appease anyone who is fundamentally opposed to something that I care deeply about. If you have the right spelled out in law that open carry is a legal and acceptable activity, but are prevented or pressured from doing it because it is not "socially acceptable" or "politically correct" then does the right really exist at all?

I think California proves this point very well. For many years unloaded open carry was legal, but no one did it, so the right really didn't exist because the pressures of the public made it unacceptable. When people started actually doing it, they outlawed it, further proving that the right never really existed in the first place.

Think of it this way. If it's legal to fish salmon, but you're told that no one is allowed to fish salmon because if you fish salmon then the legislature will make it illegal. So no one actually does fish salmon, then does it really matter that it's legal? And if no one is allowed to do it when it is legal, does it matter if they make it illegal. The result is the same, no one is allowed to fish salmon because of peer pressure, or because of law.

Did "no one" truly do it, or did those who did, chose to do so prudently and not act soley in a manner intended to thrust it in people's faces?

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

racerford
06-29-2012, 13:49
Bad question for the reason in bold.

OK take it out. My point is violent felons don't open carry in this way to any significant degree. I want to know if LEOs anecdotally have seen it differently.

Even when you look at the school shooters, most have brought the guns in in back packs or duffels. Columbine had some under long dusters.

Drug dealers involved in street wars are not carrying them on their belts in retention holsters.

The shooters that are about to be active are not pulling them out of their duffels and strapping them on and wandering around the park for awhile. The put them on and get get busy.

If they are really intent on badness, when approached by police, they react and confront or shoot themselves.

Do LEOs regularly confront people who open carry in this fashion and are exhibiting no other suspicious behaviors and find they have caught an otherwise violent felon?

SpringerTGO
06-29-2012, 14:24
That is a valid point, but to me, not a compelling one. I am a principled person. I honestly have no desire to appease anyone who is fundamentally opposed to something that I care deeply about. If you have the right spelled out in law that open carry is a legal and acceptable activity, but are prevented or pressured from doing it because it is not "socially acceptable" or "politically correct" then does the right really exist at all?

I think California proves this point very well. For many years unloaded open carry was legal, but no one did it, so the right really didn't exist because the pressures of the public made it unacceptable. When people started actually doing it, they outlawed it, further proving that the right never really existed in the first place.

Think of it this way. If it's legal to fish salmon, but you're told that no one is allowed to fish salmon because if you fish salmon then the legislature will make it illegal. So no one actually does fish salmon, then does it really matter that it's legal? And if no one is allowed to do it when it is legal, does it matter if they make it illegal. The result is the same, no one is allowed to fish salmon because of peer pressure, or because of law.

California is a great example.
It was legal to carry there, until the OC'rs decided to turn it into an issue. There are all kinds of videos on Youtube of people in CA video taping police, holding rallys, and making scenes. And guess what...... a lot of this behavior gets even pro 2a people mad.

As to people giving more compliments to OC'rs than complaints, of course! How many law abiding people would confront a person with a weapon about an issue? Most will go on their way, and some will call the police.

RussP
06-29-2012, 15:06
Why is it embarrassing? I think it's a valid point. Many people say that open carry has no value at all, and that concealed carry is the only logical choice. I don't buy that argument. If concealing has all of these benefits, and open carry has no benefits at all, then why don't police conceal carry? Why is that not a valid question? If it's good for the police, why is it not equally as good for any other citizen?Tell me how a street cop conceals his duty belt?

Kevin108
06-29-2012, 15:18
How do you know that with absolute certainty?

Absolute is a fun word but very few things in life are such. What do you know, gun- related or not, with absolute certainty?

Statistically, OCers aren't criminals. That's what I know. Should that change, so might my considerations.

TBO
06-29-2012, 15:19
Are there significant differences in the roles/duties/powers between a street Cop and a permit carrier?


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OldCurlyWolf
06-29-2012, 16:03
:nailbiting:

Yes. I don't think they realize they may be standing right next to a loaded firearm while waiting in line at the grocery store.....

They sure are doing so when they stand next to me.:cool:

By TBO "Are there significant differences in the roles/duties/powers between a street Cop and a permit carrier?"

Quite a few differences, but in some areas less than most assume.

RussP
06-29-2012, 16:16
OK take it out. My point is violent felons don't open carry in this way to any significant degree. I want to know if LEOs anecdotally have seen it differently.

Even when you look at the school shooters, most have brought the guns in in back packs or duffels. Columbine had some under long dusters.

Drug dealers involved in street wars are not carrying them on their belts in retention holsters.

The shooters that are about to be active are not pulling them out of their duffels and strapping them on and wandering around the park for awhile. The put them on and get get busy.

If they are really intent on badness, when approached by police, they react and confront or shoot themselves.

Do LEOs regularly confront people who open carry in this fashion and are exhibiting no other suspicious behaviors and find they have caught an otherwise violent felon?Other than the felon riding down the street on the yellow bicycle with his pistol showing, I've read no accounts of actual felons displaying their weapons in public.

I believe, though, that your point is open carriers are good guys and should not be suspect. Am I right or wrong.

RussP
06-29-2012, 16:21
I disagree entirely. To borrow a metaphor many people get carried away with, it relaxes me to know I am in the presence of at least one other "sheepdog."How do you know that with absolute certainty?Absolute is a fun word but very few things in life are such. What do you know, gun- related or not, with absolute certainty?

Statistically, OCers aren't criminals. That's what I know. Should that change, so might my considerations.Okay...

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 16:28
Tell me how a street cop conceals his duty belt?

Who said anything about his duty belt. I'm just talking about concealing his firearm. He could use an inside the waistband holster, ankle holster, or shoulder holster like the rest of the CCW crowd.

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 16:32
Are there significant differences in the roles/duties/powers between a street Cop and a permit carrier?


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Of course there are differences in roles, but what is the officers firearm primarily for? I would argue that it's primary purpose is for his own self defense and the defense of others. Am I wrong? When police go on the offense, usually they go with rifles or shotguns.

If my premise is correct, that an officer's firearm is primarily for defense, then there really is no difference in the firearm's purpose between a civilian carrier and an officer. Though he is more likely to need it.

SpringerTGO
06-29-2012, 16:40
Of course there are differences in roles, but what is the officers firearm primarily for? I would argue that it's primary purpose is for his own self defense and the defense of others. Am I wrong? When police go on the offense, usually they go with rifles or shotguns.

If my premise is correct, that an officer's firearm is primarily for defense, then there really is no difference in the firearm's purpose between a civilian carrier and an officer. Though he is more likely to need it.

You obviously never watched "Cops".
Every time I've seen an episode with a car pursuit, they draw their handguns when chasing down the bad guy. I've never seen them put cuffs on a bad guy while holding a rifle or shotgun.

Sam Spade
06-29-2012, 16:43
Who said anything about his duty belt. I'm just talking about concealing his firearm. He could use an inside the waistband holster, ankle holster, or shoulder holster like the rest of the CCW crowd.

You've entered Sillyville with this post.

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 16:43
You obviously never watched "Cops".
Every time I've seen an episode with a car pursuit, they draw their handguns when chasing down the bad guy. I've never seen them put cuffs on a bad guy while holding a rifle or shotgun.

Really? You've never seen officers holding a suspect at gunpoint with a shotgun on Cops? They do it all the time... Usually there are multiple officers and at least one has a long gun.

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 16:47
You've entered Sillyville with this post.

That's my point. It's silly to argue that open carry does not have ANY advantages. You can argue that you believe that concealed carry may have MORE advantages. But many people argue that open carry has NO advantages.

racerford
06-29-2012, 17:12
Other than the felon riding down the street on the yellow bicycle with his pistol showing, I've read no accounts of actual felons displaying their weapons in public.

I believe, though, that your point is open carriers are good guys and should not be suspect. Am I right or wrong.

No, my question is what are LEOs finding.

However, if open carry is legal, and 99.9% of felons don't don't open carry in proper equipment, then the fact someone is open carrying absent any suspicious behavior then there is no basis for a stop and detain. It would be like stopping, detaining, and questioning some carrying a baseball bat and glove walking down the street with no other behavior and noone calling that someone is whacking people with a bat or doing other criminal behavior with a bat or glove?. Why would you do it? Would you think that is a reasonable thing to do? How about we substitute a person carrying any thing that is legal to carry but that can also be used in a crime. Should we stop all cars on the pretext that a car can be used as a deadly weapon or a get away car? Based on another post, should we stop everyone that carries a Bible? Bibles are heavy you could whack someone pretty good with one.

Green_Manelishi
06-29-2012, 17:49
I find it generally offensive when incomers and people from away, as you call them, infringe on my doing what is legal in my state.

I avoid those areas here in Virginia when possible.

Do you not find that more offensive than boyscout399 acting legally?

The incomers likely do not know it's the law. More than likely they are from Massachusetts. None of the incident offends me, but here is an alternate scenario.

Officer Friendly: Good morning sir.

OC GUY: Morning officer. Is there a problem?

OF: We had a report of a man with a gun. You might be that guy.

OC: Yes, well. My name is ... and here is my ID. As you can see I am a resident of the state, and I am sure you know that OC is legal in Maine.

OF: Yes, this ID is you and yes I know that OC is legal. Sadly many of the vacationers don't and when they see a guy with a gun their knickers knot. I will explain the situation. Have a nice day.

Now with all that said it's likely the incomers will insist the officer "do something"> IIRC, it has happened before and it's likely to happen again.

RussP
06-29-2012, 17:53
Tell me how a street cop conceals his duty belt?Who said anything about his duty belt. I'm just talking about concealing his firearm. He could use an inside the waistband holster, ankle holster, or shoulder holster like the rest of the CCW crowd.You did when you said the words in blue...Another point. If concealed carry has all the benefits some people say it has, and open carry has no benefits at all, then why do police in uniform open carry? If concealed carry is just as fast to access the firearm, why do they not conceal? If open carry is not a deterrent, why don't they conceal? If it's just as comfortable and easy to carry a full size gun concealed, then how come every police officer open carries? To me it is obvious that OC has benefits that CC cannot provide.Police in uniform, street uniform, wear a duty belt holding a whole bunch of accessories.

Like Sam said, You've entered Sillyville with this post.

Green_Manelishi
06-29-2012, 17:56
I don't know if you've ever been to Portland, ME. But I do know that even in Portland, I get FAR more positive comments than I do negative ones whenever I'm in the city. Business owners thank me. People stop me on the street and ask questions and thank me for doing this. I almost never get a negative comment from anyone when I'm in public. The only negative comments I get are from anti-gun people on the internet, and from police.


I've been in it, through it, around it. If you "almost never get a negative comment" all the more reason to cooperate with the LEO. Ya know, like it or not, when attitudes start being copped with the cops it never works out well for anyone; the attitude copper, or the cops.


Another point. If concealed carry has all the benefits some people say it has, and open carry has no benefits at all, then why do police in uniform open carry? If concealed carry is just as fast to access the firearm, why do they not conceal? If open carry is not a deterrent, why don't they conceal? If it's just as comfortable and easy to carry a full size gun concealed, then how come every police officer open carries? To me it is obvious that OC has benefits that CC cannot provide.


You must be kidding. Would you wear a uniform/badge identifying yourself as a LEO without having a gun in plain sight? I wouldn't.


If YOU choose to CC, that's great for you. But that's a personal decision for you and you only to make. If I choose to OC as the law allows me to do, why do you ridicule me for it?

I have no problem with OC in an area it's not likely to get the incomers all lathered up.

RussP
06-29-2012, 18:01
Another point. If concealed carry has all the benefits some people say it has, and open carry has no benefits at all, then why do police in uniform open carry? If concealed carry is just as fast to access the firearm, why do they not conceal? If open carry is not a deterrent, why don't they conceal? If it's just as comfortable and easy to carry a full size gun concealed, then how come every police officer open carries? To me it is obvious that OC has benefits that CC cannot provide.That is just embarrassing, boyscout...:faint:Why is it embarrassing? I think it's a valid point. Many people say that open carry has no value at all, and that concealed carry is the only logical choice. I don't buy that argument. If concealing has all of these benefits, and open carry has no benefits at all, then why don't police conceal carry? Why is that not a valid question? If it's good for the police, why is it not equally as good for any other citizen?Tell me how a street cop conceals his duty belt?Who said anything about his duty belt. I'm just talking about concealing his firearm. He could use an inside the waistband holster, ankle holster, or shoulder holster like the rest of the CCW crowd.You've entered Sillyville with this post.


That's my point. It's silly to argue that open carry does not have ANY advantages. You can argue that you believe that concealed carry may have MORE advantages. But many people argue that open carry has NO advantages.You lost me somewhere when you made the leap from uniformed police carrying concealed and your last post.

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 18:06
The incomers likely do not know it's the law. More than likely they are from Massachusetts. None of the incident offends me, but here is an alternate scenario.

Officer Friendly: Good morning sir.

OC GUY: Morning officer. Is there a problem?

OF: We had a report of a man with a gun. You might be that guy.

OC: Yes, well. My name is ... and here is my ID. As you can see I am a resident of the state, and I am sure you know that OC is legal in Maine.

OF: Yes, this ID is you and yes I know that OC is legal. Sadly many of the vacationers don't and when they see a guy with a gun their knickers knot. I will explain the situation. Have a nice day.

Now with all that said it's likely the incomers will insist the officer "do something"> IIRC, it has happened before and it's likely to happen again.

That's a great and rosy imaginary encounter. However, my experience is that it doesn't happen like that. Especially in Portland. The first time the PPD stopped me, the proned me out on the ground and dug my ID out of my pockets. Despite not having broken any laws, they arrested me for carrying a concealed weapon. I've been stopped 7 times, The first 5 I ended up giving my ID. All of those stops lasted MUCH longer than the stops where I refused ID, and the officers still hassled me on the issue. The fact is, the officer doesn't agree with what I'm doing. They're not going to say "Oh thank you, everything is in order, have a good day." Instead, they hold me for at least 15 minutes while they run the ID check. Then they spend 5 minutes telling me about how much they think I'm doing the wrong thing and that I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing.

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 18:09
You did when you said the words in blue...Police in uniform, street uniform, wear a duty belt holding a whole bunch of accessories.

Like Sam said,

Yes they do, But if carrying the firearm concealed is such a better option, then they could theoretically take the firearm off the duty belt to conceal it... The firearm is not permanently attached to the duty belt... It's an accessory to the duty belt. My point is that officers do in fact open carry for a reason. Why is that reason also not good enough to allow me to do the same?

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 18:11
You lost me somewhere when you made the leap from uniformed police carrying concealed and your last post.

What are you confused about? I'm making the argument that if open carry has no advantages, then why do police open carry?

Sam said that was entering sillyville. Why is it suddenly silly when we discuss an officer open carrying, versus discussing a citizen open carrying? Why can a citizen not enjoy the same benefits of open carry that an officer enjoys? Especially when the law specifically allows him to do so...

TBO
06-29-2012, 18:12
Of course there are differences in roles, but what is the officers firearm primarily for? I would argue that it's primary purpose is for his own self defense and the defense of others. Am I wrong? When police go on the offense, usually they go with rifles or shotguns.

If my premise is correct, that an officer's firearm is primarily for defense, then there really is no difference in the firearm's purpose between a civilian carrier and an officer. Though he is more likely to need it.

Yes, you have entered Sillyville, population 1.

A Cop, by the very nature of his/her work needs/will access their handgun much more frequently than a permit holder.

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Bruce M
06-29-2012, 18:36
And an officer has a wide variety of responsibilities that the open carrier does not, primarily among them, a fairly definitive obligation to regularly go toward a dangerous situation. And of course the uniform generally dissolves concerns of law abiding citizens as to whether or not the person carrying the handgun openly is legitmately armed. This is also a reason why a fair number of plainclothes officers conceal the handgun at least when they are out and about randomly in public and not immediately performing visible law enforcment duties.

That said, perhaps one of the solutions to reduce angst by parts of the population would be for open carriers to adopt some sort of attire that immediately identifies them as lawful open carriers. I am going to suggest perhaps a polo shirt in an agreed upon universal color with an embroidered carry badge and maybe some sort of contrasting color vertical stripe with the wording "legal carrier" or similar...

Waboom!!
06-29-2012, 18:36
this hurts the carry argument FAR MORE than it helps it.

RussP
06-29-2012, 18:39
...The first time the PPD stopped me, the proned me out on the ground and dug my ID out of my pockets. Despite not having broken any laws, they arrested me for carrying a concealed weapon.To head off any misconceptions, why don't you tell everyone what concealed weapon you carried.

Green_Manelishi
06-29-2012, 18:42
Why can a citizen not enjoy the same benefits of open carry that an officer enjoys? Especially when the law specifically allows him to do so...

LEO are wearing a uniform and a badge. You are not. Or are you sporting a OCWP (Open Carry Weapons Permit) badge?

boyscout399
06-29-2012, 18:43
Yes, you have entered Sillyville, population 1.

A Cop, by the very nature of his/her work needs/will access their handgun much more frequently than a permit holder.

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

So you admit that the open handgun does have the advantage of quicker access? That was part of my point. People have argued with me that open carry has NO benefits at all and when I say there is a speed and ease of access advantage to an openly carried handgun, they deny that as an advantage. I hope you realize that I'm making the stupid argument to prove how stupid the argument is... Denying that open carry has it's benefits is not a sustainable argument. I have not been convinced that the supposed benefits of concealed carry outweigh the five benefits of open carry that I've described in my previous posts.

RussP
06-29-2012, 18:43
And an officer has a wide variety of responsibilities that the open carrier does not, primarily among them, a fairly definitive obligation to regularly go toward a dangerous situation. And of course the uniform generally dissolves concerns of law abiding citizens as to whether or not the person carrying the handgun openly is legitmately armed. This is also a reason why a fair number of plainclothes officers conceal the handgun at least when they are out and about randomly in public and not immediately performing visible law enforcment duties.That said, perhaps one of the solutions to reduce angst by parts of the population would be for open carriers to adopt some sort of attire that immediately identifies them as lawful open carriers. I am going to suggest perhaps a polo shirt in an agreed upon universal color with an embroidered carry badge and maybe some sort of contrasting color vertical stripe with the wording "legal carrier" or similar...No...