This needs to stop now, please... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RussP
06-25-2012, 12:43
We go through these cycles in Carry Issues where people post in threads about Open Carry only to demean and insult those who do OC.

I posted a reminder thread about such behavior - Some important reminders about the Rules, folks... (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1428988). Well, it seems I didn't specifically mention all the areas.

Please, no further equating the OC community with the gay community. It may not bother some, but it does offend others.

Don't try to be subtle and cute, either. That will only exacerbate your problems.

Thanks for your cooperation.

eracer
06-25-2012, 12:45
How sad that you actually have to explain this sort of thing.

John Rambo
06-25-2012, 12:55
You know what would've prevented this......?

magman687
06-25-2012, 12:58
You know what would've prevented this......?

Some ppl being ban long ago?

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

beatcop
06-25-2012, 13:11
Let's just sticky a OC roll-up post...

When some contentious issue arises we just reference the OC sticky.

magman687
06-25-2012, 13:35
Let's just sticky a OC roll-up post...

When some contentious issue arises we just reference the OC sticky.

That is a good idea should be effective

countrygun
06-25-2012, 13:59
I think it is all over GT and other forums. Not just in carry issues. As gun owners we have to respect the choices of others even if they aren't our choices or even if we disagree. As long as it is a legal activity, method, choice, we have to stand behind the choice of others. It is one thing to politely point out a potential problem, but it shouldn't be a religious calling to make everyone do things your way. If you think something is too "risky" for your taste, fine but remember there are a lot of people who could, and do, say that about owning a gun in the first place. Look at anything long enough and you can come up with theoretical, potential problems, it doesn't take a genius. Help others, suggest gently things they may not have thought of, but let them have their choice and you should be able to expect the same from them, in return.

Bren
06-25-2012, 14:09
I think it is all over GT and other forums. Not just in carry issues. As gun owners we have to respect the choices of others even if they aren't our choices or even if we disagree.

Yet the point of a discussion/debate/forum/etc. is to present the contrary point of view. If the contrary point of view in a debate offends you, regardless of the subject, and especially if that contrary point of view comes up again and again, maybe that's a message to think about. You might be wrong. I realize GT promotes the "all points of view are equally good and everybody gets a trophy" model, but that doesn't make it true.

If somebody posts "I won't carry a Glock with a round chambered" and somebody else posts "if you're scared of it, you shouldn't be carrying it" I see that as a simple expression of a contrary opinion. Here is seems to be considered: "OMG!!! Flame War!!!." :dunno:

Guess what - some choices are wrong, some are foolish or dangerous. They are NOT all deserving of the same respect. Pretending they are does nothing but prevent people from learning.

Bflying
06-25-2012, 14:17
Wait, what?...Open Carry? I thought people were bashing Orange County? ;)

countrygun
06-25-2012, 14:56
Yet the point of a discussion/debate/forum/etc. is to present the contrary point of view. If the contrary point of view in a debate offends you, regardless of the subject, and especially if that contrary point of view comes up again and again, maybe that's a message to think about. You might be wrong. I realize GT promotes the "all points of view are equally good and everybody gets a trophy" model, but that doesn't make it true.

If somebody posts "I won't carry a Glock with a round chambered" and somebody else posts "if you're scared of it, you shouldn't be carrying it" I see that as a simple expression of a contrary opinion. Here is seems to be considered: "OMG!!! Flame War!!!." :dunno:

Guess what - some choices are wrong, some are foolish or dangerous. They are NOT all deserving of the same respect. Pretending they are does nothing but prevent people from learning.


Well of course if someone asks "what is the best load to use in my .300 win mag for HD in my appartment?" Somebody might want to step up and say something, but again politely.

But,

"Guess what - some choices are wrong, some are foolish or dangerous. They are NOT all deserving of the same respect. Pretending they are does nothing but prevent people from learning"

That carte-blanche attitude gives ANYONE the right to decide that they don't think another person's choice deserves respect. Some folks don't need much of an excuse to judge other people and massage their own egos by blasting the choice of another under the thin cover of the decision being "wrong".

There is NO LOSS whatsoever in approaching another person's decision with a bit of respect and trying to educate them in a positive manner, at least to start. If they decide to entrench them self in a ridiculous position to protect their ego, that becomes a different matter, I suppose, but starting out to educate rather than ridicule, is a better approach.

You and I both have taken part in a thread in the Lounge (about the 14 yr old) I held back until the person now under fire, retrenched himself in the face of rational explanations concerning the fallacy of his position. when he did not show the courtesy of respecting alternate opinions (that were at first, given the subject, gently offered) Then I "opened fire". It does work both ways but just blasting someone right off the bat does not have a great success rate, perhaps "polite" only has a little better success rate but that margin is better than nothing and it helps sort out the uninformed and teachable from the monumentally stupid. We can then go about the job of informing the members of the latter group about their position, or lack thereof, in the food chain with a clear conscience.

AA#5
06-25-2012, 14:59
"Please, no further equating the OC community with the gay community. It may not bother some, but it does offend others."

Well, that's one I ain't never heard of. :rofl:

AZson
06-25-2012, 18:21
I have nothing against OC, Ive done it a couple times but it just not wise, you would be the first target of a bad guy robbing a store with a gun or they will simply just take it.

RussP
06-25-2012, 18:43
I have nothing against OC, Ive done it a couple times but it just not wise, you would be the first target of a bad guy robbing a store with a gun or they will simply just take it.Thanks for the input, but that isn't what this thread is about. :thumbsup:

steveksux
06-25-2012, 19:08
Well, let me take this opportunity to apologize to any who took offense at a recent post of mine.

My intention was to refer to the kwikrnu style open carry and its effect on the general public's impression of gun owners in general, open carriers in particular.

My point was the general public's reaction to people open carrying "assault rifles" in public in non-gun friendly areas was not likely to be favorable, and will hurt the 2A movement. Much like the guys in CA pushed the envelope there (just open carrying pistols apparently is enough to stir up the masses out there) and ended up having the legislature outlaw even unloaded open carry, the last mode of carry open to the majority of the "non-connected" folks for whom carry permits are but a fond dream.

The example I intended to provide was how much sympathy for the gay pride movement do you think is generated by the crazy outfits/makeup worn by some of the folks in the wilder gay pride parades? Does seeing those dudes in leather and makeup make you more likely to support them and their agenda? Or does that make you more likely to be turned off and write them off as a crazy fringe?

Similarly, I see kwikrnu and the kid in downtown Birmingham OCing an M1 in the business district driving people away from our side rather than attracting people to it.

THAT was the only point I was trying to make. If anyone took that as some sort of attempt to make an equivalence between gay people/behaviors and OCers as some sort of an underhanded insult, or of me trying to paint OCers as weirdos, please believe that was NOT my intention, and I apologize if anyone got that impression and was offended by that. I thought the analogy was obvious, but obviously left too much to the imagination and others took it to mean something else, for which I am truly sorry.

As long as someone carries responsibly, OC or CC, I would support that decision. Personally I much prefer concealed carry, but I don't believe I have been militantly anti-OC in the past. Indeed, I recently OC'd for the first time (Ok, it was kicking and screaming, it was the only legal option other than going unarmed... ;) ).

Still, just saying, I'm one of YOU (OC) now....

http://www.bloodygoodhorror.com/bgh/files/1bodysnatchers.jpg

Can't we all just get along? :supergrin:


Randy

NEOH212
06-26-2012, 01:33
How sad that you actually have to explain this sort of thing.

:thumbsup: I agree. At times around here, it sure seems like adults forget they are adults.

eracer
06-26-2012, 01:42
The example I intended to provide was how much sympathy for the gay pride movement do you think is generated by the crazy outfits/makeup worn by some of the folks in the wilder gay pride parades? Does seeing those dudes in leather and makeup make you more likely to support them and their agenda? Or does that make you more likely to be turned off and write them off as a crazy fringe?Well, it's none of my business how they dress, or who they have sex with, or how.

So pointing at someone because they wear certain clothes that label them as different than me doesn't make them anything but different than me.

Any fear or disdain that I might have is my problem.

redbaron007
06-26-2012, 07:25
How sad that you actually have to explain this sort of thing.

Echo this!


:wavey:

red

Mister_Beefy
06-26-2012, 07:32
might want to cross reference this to coptalk.

in my experience some of the most vehement anti OC posters and/or insult hurlers are LEOs or shall we say ... "very supportive" of LEOs, and frequenters of that section.

RussP
06-26-2012, 08:18
might want to cross reference this to coptalk.

in my experience some of the most vehement anti OC posters and/or insult hurlers are LEOs or shall we say ... "very supportive" of LEOs, and frequenters of that section.Noted, however this is a Carry Issues problem we are dealing with right now. Let's keep it that way, please.

Bren
06-26-2012, 08:22
That carte-blanche attitude gives ANYONE the right to decide that they don't think another person's choice deserves respect. Some folks don't need much of an excuse to judge other people and massage their own egos by blasting the choice of another under the thin cover of the decision being "wrong".

That's why you debate the issue by presenting evidence about why you are right and the other side is wrong, then we all learn from it. That's the point of debate. Of course, anybody in a debate who knows more than you will be "massaging his own ego."

Even the issue that started this thread was about making an analogy betweeen OC activists and other groups, to point out individuals' attention-seeking behavior that, in the big picture is harmful to the group the OC activists claim to be "helping." I personally thought it was a good way of illustrating the point and it wouldn't have raised an eyebrow most anywhere I'd debate issues other than here.

And, again, both sides of an argument are not always right, entitled to equal respect, equally valid or whatever.

HexHead
06-26-2012, 08:34
Nevermind. It didn't belong here.

DrewF86
06-26-2012, 09:29
Bren, you're making the mistake of assuming that every topic discussed has a right and wrong answer. And you're also making the mistake that your answer is the right one. Especially on the topic of OC, you can't empirically prove anything. And if you can't prove it with data you can't prove it all really. You can draw your own conclusions, but so can anyone else. And that's what keeps happening.

And it happens in lots of thread. OC vs CC, carrying Red or Amber status, topping off or not topping off. This are choices that are valid and deserve to be respected. However much we may disagree with them. Not everything is black and white, right and wrong.

countrygun
06-26-2012, 10:02
Bren, you're making the mistake of assuming that every topic discussed has a right and wrong answer. And you're also making the mistake that your answer is the right one. Especially on the topic of OC, you can't empirically prove anything. And if you can't prove it with data you can't prove it all really. You can draw your own conclusions, but so can anyone else. And that's what keeps happening.

And it happens in lots of thread. OC vs CC, carrying Red or Amber status, topping off or not topping off. This are choices that are valid and deserve to be respected. However much we may disagree with them. Not everything is black and white, right and wrong.


This is more to my point and you said it better than I.

"Absoluteism" is a demon. In terms of safety there are of course absolutes. In other things, not so much.

DScottHewitt
06-26-2012, 10:12
We go through these cycles in Carry Issues where people post in threads about Open Carry only to demean and insult those who do OC.

I posted a reminder thread about such behavior - Some important reminders about the Rules, folks... (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1428988). Well, it seems I didn't specifically mention all the areas.

Please, no further equating the OC community with the gay community. It may not bother some, but it does offend others.

Don't try to be subtle and cute, either. That will only exacerbate your problems.

Thanks for your cooperation.

It's unfortunate that common sense can't prevail.


I don't personally open carry. But I don't judge others for doing it.

To equate it with ANY other activity, legal or otherwise, just because that activity is controversial is kind of immature......

DScottHewitt
06-26-2012, 10:15
You know what would've prevented this......?

Common sense and common courtesy?


Reading and understanding the TOS?

DScottHewitt
06-26-2012, 10:18
I have nothing against OC, Ive done it a couple times but it just not wise, you would be the first target of a bad guy robbing a store with a gun or they will simply just take it.

Thanks for the input, but that isn't what this thread is about. :thumbsup:

Can we get a thread about that? I have seen this "fact" posted several times this week. I would love to see some clear documentation of it.


But, don't wanna derail this thread to do it.

RussP
06-26-2012, 13:35
I have nothing against OC, Ive done it a couple times but it just not wise, you would be the first target of a bad guy robbing a store with a gun or they will simply just take it.Thanks for the input, but that isn't what this thread is about. :thumbsup:Can we get a thread about that? I have seen this "fact" posted several times this week. I would love to see some clear documentation of it.


But, don't wanna derail this thread to do it.Well, if you must. Just remember, there has been a case right here in Richmond, Virginia where two bad guys followed an open carrier into a BP Convenience store, grabbed his gun and in the ensuing struggle shot the OCer.

Will it happen again? Eventually, yes, it will happen again. It is just a matter of time and opportunity. Will it become a frequent occurrence? I don't know.

So, go ahead and start a thread if you feel the need.

Now, back to the topic of this thread...please.

Thx-1138
06-27-2012, 21:57
Wait, what?...Open Carry? I thought people were bashing Orange County? ;)

After growing up in OC, CA.... I can get behind an Orange County-bashing thread. Great place to live as a kid.... lousy place to live as an adult - or RAISE kids. (not a contradiction - as a kid i thought it was great, but as an adult, I wouldn't raise MY kids there for anything).

bustedknee
06-28-2012, 10:29
....Guess what - some choices are wrong, some are foolish or dangerous. They are NOT all deserving of the same respect. Pretending they are does nothing but prevent people from learning.

Very well said!

People need to grow some skin and face the truth.