Does anyone care about "one shot stop" statistics anymore? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Metal Angel
06-25-2012, 16:19
I think we have probably all seen the list of pistol calibers and their respective percentages of "one shot stop". I have heard some people say its outdated because it doesn't take into account the advances in SD ammo that have occurred over the last 10 years or so.

My question is, if they compiled a new list, would anyone care? It seems like all the police shootings I have heard of in recent memory have been no less than several shots. I think the "nude zombie" took something like 4 or 5 rounds of .40smith to go down, that crazy guy running around downtown (Chicago?) that the lady officer shot at 9 or so times (not sure how many hits) with .40smith. A local guy took 12 rounds of .40smith to go down (he was wearing armor). That chimp a few years ago that mangled that lady's face and hand took 4 of .40 before it ran into the house and died.

The only two "one shot stops" I can think of in recent memory is Trayvon Martin 9mm and in New Jersey the guy holding the knife to the lady's throat got stopped with one shot of .45auto.

From what I just rambled off it looks like .40smith is pretty anemic, and .45 and 9 are powerhouses. We all know that's not true however. So in that case, does anyone care about "one shot stop"? And if "one shot stop" is not a stat that should be considered during your decision of what gun to carry, shouldn't capacity be king?

I'm sort of just thinking out load here, but what do you guys think?

Btw, sorry for not citing any of my info... I'm just too lazy. You can correct any of my info if you feel it I necessary.

GlockinNJ
06-25-2012, 16:23
Rule #2: Double Tap

Dexters
06-25-2012, 16:34
So in that case, does anyone care about "one shot stop"?

No ...

There are too many variables to make 'street' shootings a good tool for evaluations.

pizza
06-25-2012, 16:36
It's all about shot placement.

M&P15T
06-25-2012, 16:43
The only thing that I take out of it, is that all service caliber pistols suck for stopping a threat. A pistol is a side-arm, meant to carry concealed and/or get you to a real weapon, such as a shotgun or AR/rifle.

Boats
06-25-2012, 16:50
The only thing that I take out of it, is that all service caliber pistols suck for stopping a threat. A pistol is a side-arm, meant to carry concealed and/or get you to a real weapon, such as a shotgun or AR/rifle.

There's that silly notion again.

What are you gonna do, fight your way out to the parking lot to your "trunk rifle?"

K.Kiser
06-25-2012, 16:51
No ...

There are too many variables to make 'street' shootings a good tool for evaluations.

This..

ronin.45
06-25-2012, 16:52
I'm still confident that any of my handguns will do their job if I do mine.

glock2740
06-25-2012, 16:52
"Does anyone care about "one shot stop" statistics anymore?"

No ...

There are too many variables to make 'street' shootings a good tool for evaluations.

It's all about shot placement.
I agree.

faawrenchbndr
06-25-2012, 16:54
45ACP,......getting the job done for 101 years! :thumbsup:

Baba Louie
06-25-2012, 16:55
I'll follow the adage, "Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice." At least.

Handguns, for the most part, are compromises with limitations... kinda like life. If I knew I was heading into a gunfight, long guns with similarly armed friends along are preferrable IMO.

One shot stops at O dark thirty, with BG probably wearing a black or dark Tee shirt in a dynamic life or death situation, I'm not planning on a single shot for some reason. If I were, bigger is my preference in terms of making leaky holes.

But more is always good too... right? To a point.

USMCSergeant
06-25-2012, 17:00
Any 1 shot stop with a caliber of less than 50 BMG, espeically pistol calibers, should be considered flukes and not reproduceable.

Metal Angel
06-25-2012, 17:00
There's that silly notion again.

What are you gonna do, fight your way out to the parking lot to your "trunk rifle?"

Haha. I'm with you. If I have to fight all the way to my long guns, it's either red dawn or day z- neither of which I have enough ammo for.

I also think "all about shot placement" is a little silly. I mean, it definitely is, but what makes you think you can hit a target as thin as a man's pinky under stress (spine)... And going for a headshot (unless absolutely necessary like that hostage case I mentioned) is just setting yourself up to fail. If you miss, you get nothing. At least if you miss the spine you still hit some flesh. More and more I think a little more capacity and a lot more luck is what you need.

deputy tom
06-25-2012, 17:16
I'd be interested is seeing a new list on one shot stops.I read them all back in the 70's-80's. I've always been a fan of the 1911 and .45acp. YMMV.tom.:cool:

pizza
06-25-2012, 17:24
Haha. I'm with you. If I have to fight all the way to my long guns, it's either red dawn or day z- neither of which I have enough ammo for.

I also think "all about shot placement" is a little silly. I mean, it definitely is, but what makes you think you can hit a target as thin as a man's pinky under stress (spine)...
I never said "I think I can hit a target as thin as a man's pinky under stress". I was just pointing out that of all the mainstream autoloader rounds (9, 40, 45) shot placement is gonna determine a one shot stop. Doesn't matter if it's a zombie on bath salts, if you get em' in the heart or brain their going down. Your point is well taken though, the chances are slim in hitting a critical one shot under stress.



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Bruce M
06-25-2012, 17:51
... A local guy took 12 rounds of .40smith to go down (he was wearing armor). That chimp a few years ago that mangled that lady's face and hand took 4 of .40 before it ran into the house and died.



.... I am not overly familiar with the criteria for one shot stops but I am reasonably certain that for someone wearing body armor or for primates will be in a different category.

... mainstream autoloader rounds (9, 40, 45) shot placement is gonna determine a one shot stop. Doesn't matter if it's a zombie on bath salts, if you get em' in the heart or brain their going down. Your point is well taken though, the chances are slim in hitting a critical one shot under stress.



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I agree but also believe that sheer luck plays a substantial part even with good shot placement. Center chest hit - great except that the sternum deflected the round a bit. Missed the center completely but hit the big artery in the leg or shatter bones in the pelvis and the subject is out. I agree that good shot placement increases the chance of a stop but I contend luck plays a substantial part too.

Berto
06-25-2012, 17:58
OSS was a failed attempt to quantify stopping power.

Too many variables, and historically handguns really aren't very good 'stoppers', they are a compromise since we don't get to tote rifles and shotguns.

Metal Angel
06-25-2012, 18:01
I am not overly familiar with the criteria for one shot stops but I am reasonably certain that for someone wearing body armor or for primates will be in a different category.

Yup. I'm just saying a different handgun caliber wouldn't have made a lick of difference in those situations. Well, maybe that fabled 5.7x28 penetrator bullet... Who knows?

Highspeedlane
06-25-2012, 18:07
As many have posted above, the variables involved when a shooting occurs coupled with the relative low power of typical service handguns makes accurate predictions about caliber/stopping power more wishful optimism than verifiable fact.

Makes for some interesting reading some days though.

pizza
06-25-2012, 18:07
I am not overly familiar with the criteria for one shot stops but I am reasonably certain that for someone wearing body armor or for primates will be in a different category.


I contend luck plays a substantial part too.
Agreed



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boozer
06-25-2012, 18:12
Which also goes to show how the T.M. shooting was lucky/unlucky shot placement.

An inch or two, one way or another, and the outcome would have been very different.

dnuggett
06-25-2012, 18:20
There are too many variables to make 'street' shootings a good tool for evaluations.

I disagree. You can't get more accurate results across a wide range of actual scenarios. It's the best data available.

dnuggett
06-25-2012, 18:25
And for the record, I don't believe in looking at one stop shoots as any type of accurate indicator of what rounds should be chosen for carry. The data is clear, caliber does not factor in to the equation much. On average one shot does not stop the threat.

G31
06-25-2012, 18:29
I agree with the idea of any hit being better than no hit in general, but don't feel it is an adequate compromise. The problem with that thought is trauma to nonvital areas often cannot cause a fast physiological stop, and is unreliable at best. Sure, it can have an effect in the long run, but not usually in the seconds-to-minutes of a fight. It might have a psychological effect, and often does. I definitely agree that no one has the skill under stress to hit something as thin as the spine, aorta, IVC, or left and right iliac arteries without pure dumb luck. Your chance of hitting a vital within the mediastinum are much greater, but still takes some good luck when you're trying to engage someone, on-the-move, without taking damage yourself. This is where multiple shots come in (capacity), where I agree again.

Having said all this, I don't feel every person you might encounter is going to become a super human under fight-or-flight mode, able to soak up mags of ammo without stopping. However, The risk is very real when willpower is coupled with high doses of potent drugs that alter pain tolerance and mindset. This can totally take the psychological stop out of the equation, and leave you with only the option of damaging the body enough to shut it down involuntarily. This is purely a shot placement scenario.

checkyoursix
06-25-2012, 18:37
No ...

There are too many variables to make 'street' shootings a good tool for evaluations.



On the contrary, any real life armed confrontation is analyzed in depth by police departments and very important lessons have been learnt that way.




As for the calibers, I believe in practicing a lot and that forces me to stick to 9mm for economic reasons only. I think good shooters will prevail against mere gun owners in most situations, and therefore I work as hard as I can to be and stay one.

Dexters
06-25-2012, 19:52
On the contrary, any real life armed confrontation is analyzed in depth by police departments and very important lessons have been learnt that way.



Of course, but not about caliber selection.

1smoothredneck
06-25-2012, 20:12
If no one cared, we'd all be carrying nine mil ball. Of course good stopping power is important in a ccw choice, along with lots of other things....nothing is everything. everything is something. Good JHP bullet with great expansion and 10-14 inches of penetration in gelatin, with low flash, and modern enough to not go to round nose through fabric, ALONG WITH a very proven street track record is what I look for. Just my$.02. Be safe

Merkavaboy
06-25-2012, 21:16
I am not overly familiar with the criteria for one shot stops but I am reasonably certain that for someone wearing body armor or for primates will be in a different category.


I agree but also believe that sheer luck plays a substantial part even with good shot placement. Center chest hit - great except that the sternum deflected the round a bit. Missed the center completely but hit the big artery in the leg or shatter bones in the pelvis and the subject is out. I agree that good shot placement increases the chance of a stop but I contend luck plays a substantial part too.

+1. Shot placement on an attacker's CNS is a pipe-dream. You aim COM and if you happen to hit the spine or possibly get a brain shot, it's all 99% luck. Even Snipers/Sharpshooters/Marksmen occaisonally miss their intended target. In Fight-or-Flight Do-or-Die situations LEO's and armed citizens alike are lucky to be able to achieve even COM hits.

Merkavaboy
06-25-2012, 21:30
And for the record, I don't believe in looking at one stop shoots as any type of accurate indicator of what rounds should be chosen for carry. The data is clear, caliber does not factor in to the equation much. On average one shot does not stop the threat.

Well, I guess the FBI didn't get that Memo after April 11, 1986. The FBI were the ultimate Poster Child for the OSS theory when they blamed a single 9mm STHP for not stopping the determined homicidal attack by Michael Lee Platt.

Metal Angel
06-25-2012, 21:45
Well, I guess the FBI didn't get that Memo after April 11, 1986. The FBI were the ultimate Poster Child for the OSS theory when they blamed a single 9mm STHP for not stopping the determined homicidal attack by Michael Lee Platt.

Which initially lead to the search for a OSS caliber, and was later found to be unachievable when even the mighty 10mm wouldn't do it. The FBI is now the biggest non-believer in OSS.

randrew379
06-25-2012, 21:52
Don't forget, most cases of firearm defense are zero shot stops.

AK74play
06-25-2012, 22:08
I dont beleive in magic bullets so one stop shot statistics meen nothing to me. I beleive in 3 things, shot placement, practise and lots of it and faith in God. No other statistics of any kind done by anyone meen anything to me. I dont shoot to kill, I shoot to survive.

Wurger
06-25-2012, 23:05
My question is, if they compiled a new list, would anyone care?

Yes.....These guys were some of the few that looked at the question of stopping power scientifically. Did their best to have valid data (street data) and did not have an agenda. Their detractors invariably resulted to name calling and refused to look at the possibility that their 'holy grail' methods of bullet evaluation may be lacking in the real world.

The 'One Shot Stop' studies were not intended to reveal a "phaser" like elimination of the target but was only to give a method in comparrison between calibers and specific bullets within caliber groupings.

Minnow
06-25-2012, 23:17
No caliber is absolute. Placement is important, but it is not everything either.

Electrikkoolaid
06-25-2012, 23:58
"Good enough" is acceptable when talking handguns.

"Perfect" is unattainable, and it's very definition will vary widely.

Most people shot with handguns do not die, fewer are instantly disabled.

Having a gun all the time, and not locking up in panic when it's needed, matters most.

Bob Hafler
06-26-2012, 05:06
Doesn't matter if I use a 45 or a 9mm or a Shotgun. If one shot doesn't stop the threat I'm going to shoot them again.
I'm not under the false impression that when the adreniline starts pumping I'm going to be all that calm or lucky enough to place a round where it's going to drop the BG in his tracks with one shot. Full blow adreniline rushes can be a B!+(h.
Just keeping it real.

English
06-26-2012, 05:50
On the contrary, any real life armed confrontation is analyzed in depth by police departments and very important lessons have been learnt that way.




As for the calibers, I believe in practicing a lot and that forces me to stick to 9mm for economic reasons only. I think good shooters will prevail against mere gun owners in most situations, and therefore I work as hard as I can to be and stay one.

Well said!

We should be interested in one shot stops that don't hit the CNS. This does not depend on the idea of a magic bullet since any knowledgeable person knows there is no such thing. That is, a good proportion of one stop shots cannot guarantee that the next shot will be a one stop shot. The information would be statistical but not predictive.

The real value to the knowledge would be that rounds with a higher rate of one stop shots are likely to have a higher probability of stopping the threat with fewer shots fired and in a shorter time.

That being so, it is very difficult to gather such information. Back in the day LEOs were taught to fire and assess. That was a dangerous tactic and now they are taught to fire until the threat stops. So even when a one stop shot happened at least two or three more shots would have been fired before the shooter realised the threat was gone.

Any information gathered would need to involve an autopsy to eliminate CNS hits and would need to look at the number of hits made. Then the rounds with the best record for fewest hits per stop would replace the statistics for one shot stops. Even this is difficult because each bullet type, caliber and velocity would have to have its data recorded for that individual type. Since there are many such variants the exercise would need a huge number of incidents to ammass enough data for rare loadings such as, say 135gn 10mm in the 800ft.lbs range.

English

Aceman
06-26-2012, 06:11
It really takes a lot to understand this.

#1 It takes a LOT of data. I agree that real world results are valuable. But I also think that to adequately cover the bias of likely not random acts, it would take a whole lot of data.

#2 People are IMMENSELY biased. I can't tell you how many "one time a guy..." examples of a .22 doing the job or a .45 not doing the job results people bring up.

#3 Specific situations should be examined under a microscope.


You just brought up examples including Monkeys, body armor, and crazy people....

Rgardlless of the situation, I think one shot pistol stop is not reasonable. I bring up the (very doable) pig examination. A little mental experiment. Shoot 100 150 lb pigs that are moving around. Shoot them quickly (no taking a minute for the perfect shot) and see how many out 100 drop immediately, drop, or keep moving. I usually raise this issue with rifle calibers, but lets put Wilbur at maybe 15 ft for pistol rounds. Try a .22, a .380, a .38, a 9mm, .40, .45, and a .357. That's a lot of barbeque. But it would give a pretty good approximation of the answer IMO.


At best - you can get some generalizations.

#1 Bigger caliber is better, but it may not be significantly better after 9mm (especially .40, IMO.) I either want the big bullet, or i want a lot of little ones. I don't dig the compromise solution.

#2 Accuracy is important - so practice

#3 People being shot at tend not to stand still like targets at a well lit range. So even if you do the best job you are capable of - it doesn't depend on just you.

After that, I have to agree with having one is better than not, and double tap. Or triple, or quadruple, or whatever it takes. Thus I have a preference for 9mm.

My call FTW: 12g 00

M&P15T
06-26-2012, 06:20
There's that silly notion again.

What are you gonna do, fight your way out to the parking lot to your "trunk rifle?"

Evidently you didn't notice the "and/or" part, so I'll offer some advice: read for comprehension before you post a reply. It's far better to reply when you actually understand what you're replying to.

DEADEYEGUY
06-26-2012, 09:28
Only the uniformed. You simply can't count on one round from any handgun to put someone down. It does happen. But plan on shooting until the threat is stopped no matter what you shoot.

Tombo 65
06-26-2012, 11:28
What has always amazed me is the high level of fanatical loyalty to certain cartridges in spite of factual data to the contrary. Some people seem to identify so fully with a cartridge that they are offended by any data that doesn't support their preferences.

I think a strong case can be made for each of the typical semi-auto cartridges (9mm, 357sig, 40s&w, 10mm, 45acp), but none of those cases can be based on dependable one-shot stop capability. There are just too many variables.

Repetitive shot placement, not just first shot placement, is big in my book. Slower follow-up shots due to muzzle lift can make a more potent round less attractive from my perspective. I can get get four rounds on target accurately with a 9mm in less time than I can get two with a 10mm. Pretty subjective, but you get the picture.

Who in their right mind wouldn't carry more ammo if it conveniently fit inside the standard mag. Does anyone choose to carry a 10rd mag in their G17, 22, 20 or 21 because they prefer to. State regs may make the lower capacity mags necessary in certain locations, but I'd like to hear from anyone who intentionally chooses the lower capacity mags from preference.

If I could fit 15 rounds of 45super into a G23, fully dampen the recoil/muzzle rise, and get it fo feed Manstopper bullets, that's what I'd carry daily. Until then, I'll be content with a standard G23, G32, or G22/G31. I know this is a compromise, but I'm comfortable with it.

fastbolt
06-26-2012, 11:44
Does anyone care about "one shot stop" statistics anymore?

No. Not so much.

Training (knowledge, tactics, etc), practice, experience, mindset & equipment maintenance. (Presuming one of the common service/duty calibers are being considered.)

Specific weapon, caliber & ammunition selection may be selected for various reasons. It's up to the agency/individual making the selection to determine the relevancy and priority of the criteria used.

It's just a handgun.

NeverMore1701
06-26-2012, 12:12
I have no intention of shooting something just once, no matter if I'm carrying my .380 or .44 mag.

Boats
06-26-2012, 12:21
Evidently you didn't notice the "and/or" part, so I'll offer some advice: read for comprehension before you post a reply. It's far better to reply when you actually understand what you're replying to.

I understood you to also mean that a handgun is not a "real weapon," that being the silly notion I am mocking.

Even if it had to be carried concealed, why would you then settle for a weapon that ain't "real?" Get yerself an AR pistola or a Serbu Super Shorty and then pop off on how you pack a "real weapon."

Until then, keep your thoughts on reading comprehension to yourself.

NeverMore1701
06-26-2012, 12:22
I understood you to also mean that a handgun is not a "real weapon," that being the silly notion I am mocking.

Even if it had to be carried concealed, why would you then settle for a weapon that ain't "real?" Get yerself an AR pistola or a Serbu Super Shorty and then pop off on how you pack a "real weapon."

Until then, keep your thoughts on reading comprehension to yourself.

To be fair, handguns suck at everything except concealability when compared to a rifle or shotgun. No way around that.

Boats
06-26-2012, 12:36
To be fair, handguns suck at everything except concealability when compared to a rifle or shotgun. No way around that.

More senseless absolutists show up here every day it seems.

EVERYTHING? NO WAY AROUND THAT?

Let's see you deploy:

A long arm during a carjacking.
While driving a tractor.
While using a port-a-potty or in other severely confined spaces.
While riding a horse at a gallop.
While calling 911.
While hauling a loved one out of harm's way.

Yep, handguns suck at EVERYTHING but concealed carry—until it comes down to an inability to get a long arm into action or you suddenly need that occupied off hand in the worst possible way.

I don't mind folks being unabashed long gun fans, but the absolutism about them being the be all and end all in every situation outside of concealed carry is just absolutely foolish.

It's never been a totally "long gun world" in reality. These limited noise making "toys" called handguns have been around since the advent of firearms for far more reasons than mere concealment.

NeverMore1701
06-26-2012, 12:57
Hmm.

If I'm in a carjacking, I'm hitting the gas, not going for my IWB pistol that's buckled under my seatbelt.

If I'm driving the tractor, I'll just stop and get out.

If I'm in a portapotty I'll go for my knife.

If I'm on my horse I'll either run away or get off.

If I'm calling 911 it won't be during a fight, it will be before or after.

And anyone with the physical strength of a 12 year old can operate an AR while doing a short distance drag or carry.


Guess it all depends on your perspective.

countrygun
06-26-2012, 13:37
No matter how I spin it when I think real hard, I can't help but come to the conclusion that a double tap is a great idea, but I would bet, just a hunch mind you, that a double tap with a .45 acp HP, or .357 sig (whichever you like) will have a higher percentage of "two-shot stops" than a .32 acp with ball ammo.

That is, the "One shot stop" stats may point to a better choice for a double tap.

GlockinNJ
06-26-2012, 14:08
I have no intention of shooting something just once, no matter if I'm carrying my .380 or .44 mag.

This.

Who cares about a one stop shot? Are we carrying black powder pistols?

Same thing can be said about shot placement. In the heat of the moment with a moving target, how much are you going to worry about getting off one good, accurate shot?

Keep shooting at the center of mass until the threat stops. This is more about capacity and reliability than caliber.

Berto
06-26-2012, 14:30
This.

Who cares about a one stop shot? Are we carrying black powder pistols?

Same thing can be said about shot placement. In the heat of the moment with a moving target, how much are you going to worry about getting off one good, accurate shot?

Keep shooting at the center of mass until the threat stops. This is more about capacity and reliability than caliber.

Actually, hate it or love it, placement is what you should care about. You typically run out of time before boolits. Make them count.
Shooting a target well isn't just about repetition, it's about effect.

TalkToTheGlock
06-26-2012, 14:48
It's all about shot placement.

This is correct. From 9mm to .50AE you need to hit CNS to be a OHK or OHS.

countrygun
06-26-2012, 14:56
This is correct. From 9mm to .50AE you need to hit CNS to be a OHK or OHS.


Otherwise you will be SOL and could end up WIA and then DOA.

fnfalman
06-26-2012, 15:04
I disagree. You can't get more accurate results across a wide range of actual scenarios. It's the best data available.

Junk data is no data.

fnfalman
06-26-2012, 15:06
Yes.....These guys were some of the few that looked at the question of stopping power scientifically. Did their best to have valid data (street data) and did not have an agenda. Their detractors invariably resulted to name calling and refused to look at the possibility that their 'holy grail' methods of bullet evaluation may be lacking in the real world.

Scientifically in whose world?:rofl:

The 'One Shot Stop' studies were not intended to reveal a "phaser" like elimination of the target but was only to give a method in comparrison between calibers and specific bullets within caliber groupings.

It was a flawed approach from the start, ergo it's junk data.

elde
06-26-2012, 18:19
I'm still a big fan of Evan Marshall and his forum. Evan is high on Corbon .45 DPX so that's what I carry in my FNP 45....16 of them.

dnuggett
06-26-2012, 18:52
Junk data is no data.

I agree with that statement. Too bad your premise is false.

Rancho_Nirvana
06-26-2012, 19:46
All things considered...I am buying a G30.

JuneyBooney
06-26-2012, 20:56
It's all about shot placement.

I think there is a big legal case in Florida going on right now where a 9mm was used and one shot did it. :whistling: Shot placement every time. Head shots work well to stop the threat too. :faint:I agree with the above post.

TTM65
06-26-2012, 23:48
That is because most LEO's are using 9mm. They take large capacity over round performance. Hit them with a 230 grain 45 acp and it would make a big difference.

NeverMore1701
06-26-2012, 23:54
That is because most LEO's are using 9mm. They take large capacity over round performance. Hit them with a 230 grain 45 acp and it would make a big difference.

Not really.

M&P15T
06-27-2012, 04:43
I understood you to also mean that a handgun is not a "real weapon," that being the silly notion I am mocking.

Even if it had to be carried concealed, why would you then settle for a weapon that ain't "real?" Get yerself an AR pistola or a Serbu Super Shorty and then pop off on how you pack a "real weapon."

Until then, keep your thoughts on reading comprehension to yourself.


Go back to my post that you're still throwing a tantrum over. Quote it, and show where I said that pistols aren't "real weapons". Oh.....you can't. Sounds to me like you're making stuff up, just so you can argue.

What I did say, was that service caliber pistols suck for stopping threats. If you can't understand the truth in that statement, I really don't know how to help you other than by stating that which you should already know.

9MM, .45 and .40 are terrible threat stoppers. Long guns are far more effective at stopping threats. The reason why handguns are popular, is because they're easy to carry and conceal, but you pay a price for that ease of carrying and concealing.

The topic of this thread is whether or not people still care about one shot stop statistics. My reply was that the only good info I can get out of those statistics, is that handguns suck for stopping threats.

Do I still carry a handgun? Yes, because it's easy to carry concealed. Would I rather have a long gun in virtually any possible situation? Absolutely, you'd be stupid to not want as much of an advantage as you can get.

Again, handguns suck, but they're easy to carry concealed. Given the opportunity, I'd rather have an AR or shotgun.

Bren
06-27-2012, 06:14
I think we have probably all seen the list of pistol calibers and their respective percentages of "one shot stop". I have heard some people say its outdated because it doesn't take into account the advances in SD ammo that have occurred over the last 10 years or so.

Why would you shoot one time? That's the outdated part.

M&P Shooter
06-27-2012, 06:17
10mm:whistling:

Apetrulis01
06-27-2012, 09:14
I really dont care about one shot stopping power. Every department shooting has taken multiple rounds, and half the time the bad guy does not die. Only one I can remember that took one round was a shot that hit the heart, but then again any round would have killed the guy.

Adam

sfguard
06-27-2012, 09:31
It's all about shot placement.

This. You could have a 22 short and do a one shot stop with shot placement.

English
06-27-2012, 10:35
I have no intention of shooting something just once, no matter if I'm carrying my .380 or .44 mag.

I don't think Marshal and Sanow were suggesting that any pistol bullet could be relied on to produce a one shot stop every time. They were just trying to use the available data to rank the effectiveness of different calibers and loadings. Unfortunately, I believe, their data collection system was unsound since it depended on self reporting.

Equally, any such data set would exclude hits to the CNS because almost anything from .380 upwards will achieve a one stop shot virtually 100% of the time. All that is interesting is the effectiveness of different rounds with center mass hits.

English

jb1911
06-27-2012, 10:40
I have never cared about "one shot stop" statistics.

fnfalman
06-27-2012, 11:12
I agree with that statement. Too bad your premise is false.

What premise? I'm not the one that publishes something that purportedly to be some sort of scientific study.

Merkavaboy
06-27-2012, 11:58
That is because most LEO's are using 9mm. They take large capacity over round performance. Hit them with a 230 grain 45 acp and it would make a big difference.

I guess the suspect that tried to kill Ofc. Gramins didn't get your message.

Ofc. Gramins has since changed to a G17 loaded with 124GDHP+P.

http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol/Articles/2012/02/Shots-Fired-Skokie-Illinois-08-25-2008.aspx

ZO6Vettever
06-27-2012, 12:01
I can't help but read the "one shot stop" BS stats. I also put too much faith in ballistics because the manufacturer is the one disclosing the ballistics in most cases. I use Speer 230 grain JHP and they should do a pretty good job. Shot placement? The range "hotshot" will find himself in a different ball game in a gunfight. Paper stands still and most importantly doesn't return fire. Paper will probably be needed for "clean-up" after the shooting. COM until the threat stops.

Merkavaboy
06-27-2012, 12:05
Why would you shoot one time? That's the outdated part.

If someone gets off only one shot and if that person's attacker is either immediately incapacitated or breaks off the attack and flees, any other shot will be considered excessive force. Not all SD shootings require or demand more than one shot being fired.

Minnow
06-27-2012, 13:35
This. You could have a 22 short and do a one shot stop with shot placement.

Or
your attacker may draw a .45 automatic and shoot you to pieces when your perfectly placed .22 short fails to penetrate.

Placement isn't everything. It's one important element of your response.

esh325
06-27-2012, 14:05
I'm not an expert, but I don't believe the "one shot stop" statistics to be factual or scientific. Shot placement is very important, but the size of the slug matters and power matters too. We would all be carrying .22 LR's if it didn't. With regards to the 9mm,.45 acp, and .40 S&W, and .357 sIg, I think the 9mm is a better choice for the vast majority of people. Ballistic gelatin have tests shown that there is not massive difference when we are talking about JHP's. If you do choose a .45 acp or .40 S&W, it hardly matters. I don't think you are at any real disadvantage if you do. Somebody once said "All pistol calibers suck" and I believe that to be true. When you want to get to calibers that are signifcantly more lethal than your common service pistol calibers, you usually will have to pay the price for a lot of recoil and less magazine capacity. So the 9mm,40, and .45 acp are really a balance between lethality,capacity, and controllobility.

I think to increase the lethality of the pistol bullet, one should look at designing pistol bullets that share some of the traits of rifle bullets. These may not be very practical though to adapt to existing pistol calibers, so a new caliber should be made that has the characteristics of a rifle bullet, but with low recoil and magazine capacity. The 5.7x28 was the closest to that, but it did not succeed in becoming the NATO pistol caliber.

English
06-27-2012, 14:41
If someone gets off only one shot and if that person's attacker is either immediately incapacitated or breaks off the attack and flees, any other shot will be considered excessive force. Not all SD shootings require or demand more than one shot being fired.

It takes time to see that your opponent is incapacitated or has decided to run off. In that time you should be able to fire 2 or 3 more shots. On occasion, the about to flee opponent will be shot in the back because the shooter cannot react quickly enough to stop the shot. No one in a gunfight can afford to waste the time it takes to see how effective their last shot was. Even when shooting falling plates the best tactic is to fire one shot on each plate and then go back to fire on those that have not fallen. Stopping to see whether the plate falls just uses time for no gain.

Perception takes time. Action takes time. Stopping an action takes time!

English

fnfalman
06-27-2012, 15:39
Or
your attacker may draw a .45 automatic and shoot you to pieces when your perfectly placed .22 short fails to penetrate.

Placement isn't everything. It's one important element of your response.

A perfectly placed .22 Short is right in the eyeball. I doubt that the attacker would be able to return fire afterward.

Minnow
06-27-2012, 15:55
A perfectly placed .22 Short is right in the eyeball. I doubt that the attacker would be able to return fire afterward.

Good luck with that.

esh325
06-27-2012, 16:04
A perfectly placed .22 Short is right in the eyeball. I doubt that the attacker would be able to return fire afterward.
It could, but it's very doubtful somebody would get that opportunity in self defense most of the time.

Chris Brines
06-27-2012, 16:32
That is one thing I've heard many differing opinions on, whether or not a 45 acp that will put a crater in someone is best, or a 9mm that you can punch 3-4 little holes that hit some vital organs.

I personally say 9mm is the best carry caliber, because it's mid caliber, easy to shoot, low recoil, high accuracy during rapid firing, and the least expensive ammo (that will qualify you for a CHL anyway) so you can practice the most with it.

But I'd personally rather put 3 or 4 9mm gold dots in someone than just 1 45 acp gold dot. Could go for 3 or 4 45 acp gold dots....now that would do some serious damage.

Berto
06-27-2012, 20:41
That is one thing I've heard many differing opinions on, whether or not a 45 acp that will put a crater in someone is best, or a 9mm that you can punch 3-4 little holes that hit some vital organs.

I personally say 9mm is the best carry caliber, because it's mid caliber, easy to shoot, low recoil, high accuracy during rapid firing, and the least expensive ammo (that will qualify you for a CHL anyway) so you can practice the most with it.

But I'd personally rather put 3 or 4 9mm gold dots in someone than just 1 45 acp gold dot. Could go for 3 or 4 45 acp gold dots....now that would do some serious damage.

That would make sense if based on the presumption you can only get one controlled shot with a .45acp vs 9mm, but in reality it really makes little difference. The most common .45acp platform is still the 1911, and you can hose a target just as fast as most can with a typical 9mm.
Sometimes one gun can be faster than another, and I agree the medium bore handgun is generally faster to shoot than big bores, but the .45acp is actually pretty gentle from the guns you usually shoot it from.
The big thing (for me) is what combination pistol/caliber enables fast hits and accuracy, not just the platform or just the caliber. The whole OSS thing sold magazines, not much else.

dnuggett
06-27-2012, 22:02
What premise? I'm not the one that publishes something that purportedly to be some sort of scientific study.

The premise that the data is bad. There are quite a few studies and not all of them have bad data. The one I was referring to in my original statement was a study recently done. The author looked at actual shootings and concluded that if a shot is fired it took on average a little over two shots to stop the threat, regardless of caliber. I don't consider that study to have bad data. I can't remember the guys name now to reference it. I'll try to come up with it later. He was interviewed on an episode of Guntalk, but memory fails as to which episode that was.

Boats
06-27-2012, 23:17
Go back to my post that you're still throwing a tantrum over. Quote it, and show where I said that pistols aren't "real weapons". Oh.....you can't. Sounds to me like you're making stuff up, just so you can argue.


This was you, right?

. . .meant to carry concealed and/or get you to a real weapon, such as a shotgun or AR/rifle.

Shaddup.

M&P15T
06-28-2012, 05:58
This was you, right?



Shaddup.

So, do you have any counters to the meat and potatoes of what I've discussed? No? Didn't think so.

Why you want to continue to argue against reality is beyond me. In comparison to long guns, pistols suck for stopping threats. If the option is available to you, grabbing a long gun is best.

fnfalman
06-28-2012, 08:54
Good luck with that.

Skills, not luck.

Chris Brines
06-28-2012, 10:09
That would make sense if based on the presumption you can only get one controlled shot with a .45acp vs 9mm, but in reality it really makes little difference. The most common .45acp platform is still the 1911, and you can hose a target just as fast as most can with a typical 9mm.
Sometimes one gun can be faster than another, and I agree the medium bore handgun is generally faster to shoot than big bores, but the .45acp is actually pretty gentle from the guns you usually shoot it from.
The big thing (for me) is what combination pistol/caliber enables fast hits and accuracy, not just the platform or just the caliber. The whole OSS thing sold magazines, not much else.

Good point. A Glock 30 and a Glock 26 have very little difference in recoil. I guess a 45 would be good to carry, I carry a 9 because ammo's cheapest so that''s what I practice with the most.

Boats
06-28-2012, 10:53
So, do you have any counters to the meat and potatoes of what I've discussed? No? Didn't think so.

Why you want to continue to argue against reality is beyond me. In comparison to long guns, pistols suck for stopping threats. If the option is available to you, grabbing a long gun is best.

Meat and potatoes? More like thin gruel prepared by a moron.

You unequivocally stated that handguns were not real weapons, good only for concealed carry or getting one to a shotgun or <ahem> a real weapon, like an AR<cough>.

Maybe you need to make another boring post explaining how you really didn't say what you said?

I have not been arguing that handguns are better than long arms, only that they have a role that is somewhat more than being "not a real weapon."

NeverMore1701
06-28-2012, 12:23
http://img.docstoccdn.com/thumb/orig/4578617.png

fnfalman
06-28-2012, 14:40
To me a "real" weapon is something like a battle axe or a broad sword. Guns are for those who aren't tough enough to do it old school.

Mr.Pliskin
06-29-2012, 07:34
I cannot envision myself working the trigger slow enough to find out if it worked as a "one shot stop"....so no

M&P15T
06-29-2012, 07:57
Meat and potatoes? More like thin gruel prepared by a moron.

You unequivocally stated that handguns were not real weapons, good only for concealed carry or getting one to a shotgun or <ahem> a real weapon, like an AR<cough>.

Maybe you need to make another boring post explaining how you really didn't say what you said?

I have not been arguing that handguns are better than long arms, only that they have a role that is somewhat more than being "not a real weapon."

Uhhhh...so what's your point? Oh..you want argue semantics over some butt-hurt you're enduring over my post.

Pistols, IN COMPARISON TO LONG GUNS, suck for stopping threats.

There, feel better? Butt hurt all gone now?

Still, I'll say it again. Pistols are SIDEARMS, meant for concealed carry. They stuck for stopping threats. A REAL firearm is a long gun. Pistols are a crappy compromise.

Oooooh....sorry.....you're butt-hurt back?

fnfalman
06-29-2012, 09:01
Still, I'll say it again. Pistols are SIDEARMS, meant for concealed carry. They stuck for stopping threats. A REAL firearm is a long gun. Pistols are a crappy compromise.

Oooooh....sorry.....you're butt-hurt back?

And then there's the exception to the rule the Special Operations Command Offensive Handgun Mk23.

What's with all these butt hurt talks? You guys been visiting San Francisco?

Boost_Junkie
06-29-2012, 09:06
And then there's the exception to the rule the Special Operations Command Offensive Handgun Mk23.

What's with all these butt hurt talks? You guys been visiting San Francisco?

I'd call that one a long gun too..lol

dnuggett
06-29-2012, 10:28
What's with all these butt hurt talks? You guys been visiting San Francisco?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Berto
06-29-2012, 11:32
And then there's the exception to the rule the Special Operations Command Offensive Handgun Mk23.

What's with all these butt hurt talks? You guys been visiting San Francisco?

He's trying to make friends.:upeyes:

G31
06-29-2012, 17:21
Here is an article I found (about 10 pages). Wound Ballistics: Analysis of Blunt and Penetrating Trauma Mechanisms (http://www.hsj.gr/volume4/issue4/445.pdf)

I'll be honest, I did not read the whole thing, just glanced at portions of it, so don't flame away at me if there is something not entirely factual in it. It looked pretty good at a glance.

WarEagle32
06-29-2012, 17:30
I care just because I am fascinated with ballistics!

fnfalman
06-30-2012, 23:27
Here is an article I found (about 10 pages). Wound Ballistics: Analysis of Blunt and Penetrating Trauma Mechanisms (http://www.hsj.gr/volume4/issue4/445.pdf)

I'll be honest, I did not read the whole thing, just glanced at portions of it, so don't flame away at me if there is something not entirely factual in it. It looked pretty good at a glance.

A. It was written and published in a science journal by a science graduate student.

B. It referenced many a studies, none of them are from Marshall & Sanow. Imagine that.:rofl:

Cobra64
06-30-2012, 23:32
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/129265.jpg

Schaffer
07-01-2012, 02:25
Shoot the biggest caliber your comfortable carrying.





Part of the reason you dont see more one stop shots is that the person shooting is to
Busy pulling the trigger to check and see it one round works.

NEOH212
07-01-2012, 03:06
Does anyone care about "one shot stop" statistics anymore?

I never cared in the first place. A one shot stop can and does happen but I would seriously be deluding myself if I thought one round was going to be the do all end all.

I've always figured that if I ever had to shoot someone in self defense, I would keep firing until the threat stopped anyhow. I never bet on one round doing the job in the first place. IMHO, that's a good concept to live by.

fnfalman
07-01-2012, 03:23
I never cared in the first place.

That's because you didn't make any money of it. If you were, then you would have cared very much and flouted it around as though it's some sort of scientific study and sold books on it and wrote articles on it and sell ammo on it...

But then maybe I'm just a cynical engineer.

NEOH212
07-01-2012, 03:30
Shoot the biggest caliber your comfortable carrying.

I agree totally! :wavey:

Schaffer
07-01-2012, 04:22
I never cared in the first place. A one shot stop can and does happen but I would seriously be deluding myself if I thought one round was going to be the do all end all.

I've always figured that if I ever had to shoot someone in self defense, I would keep firing until the threat stopped anyhow. I never bet on one round doing the job in the first place. IMHO, that's a good concept to live by.


your going to squeeze off more than one round before the threat hits the ground.


again,biggest caliber your comfortable with.

i think the 9mm is a soft enough and control-able that anyone can shoot it. if you cant hit it well enough with it,you need to hit the gym.

fnfalman
07-01-2012, 04:47
i think the 9mm is a soft enough and control-able that anyone can shoot it. if you cant hit it well enough with it,you need to hit the gym.

Tell that to an octogenarian. Not everybody is a he-man like yourself.

G31
07-01-2012, 11:01
A. It was written and published in a science journal by a science graduate student.

B. It referenced many a studies, none of them are from Marshall & Sanow. Imagine that.:rofl:

M&S are not taken seriously by anyone with any real knowledge of gunshot trauma. No surprise there. Looks like they summarized about 20 studies, papers, and lectures to make this article. I noticed a few were Fackler's.

Darkangel1846
07-01-2012, 11:19
I think we have probably all seen the list of pistol calibers and their respective percentages of "one shot stop". I have heard some people say its outdated because it doesn't take into account the advances in SD ammo that have occurred over the last 10 years or so.

My question is, if they compiled a new list, would anyone care? It seems like all the police shootings I have heard of in recent memory have been no less than several shots. I think the "nude zombie" took something like 4 or 5 rounds of .40smith to go down, that crazy guy running around downtown (Chicago?) that the lady officer shot at 9 or so times (not sure how many hits) with .40smith. A local guy took 12 rounds of .40smith to go down (he was wearing armor). That chimp a few years ago that mangled that lady's face and hand took 4 of .40 before it ran into the house and died.

The only two "one shot stops" I can think of in recent memory is Trayvon Martin 9mm and in New Jersey the guy holding the knife to the lady's throat got stopped with one shot of .45auto.

From what I just rambled off it looks like .40smith is pretty anemic, and .45 and 9 are powerhouses. We all know that's not true however. So in that case, does anyone care about "one shot stop"? And if "one shot stop" is not a stat that should be considered during your decision of what gun to carry, shouldn't capacity be king?

I'm sort of just thinking out load here, but what do you guys think?

Btw, sorry for not citing any of my info... I'm just too lazy. You can correct any of my info if you feel it I necessary.


Never ever count on stopping anyone or anything with one shot from any shotgun, rifle or handgun. The chances of you ever having to shoot someone is small, but not preparing is the mother of all ******* ups. Carry the biggest Cal you can reasonably carry with as much SD ammo as you can reasonably carry. Common sense rules. (Don't carry a S&W 629 down the front of your pants.)Carry reasonable SA handgun with one mag back up. JMHO:wavey:

Boats
07-01-2012, 11:49
Uhhhh...so what's your point? Oh..you want argue semantics over some butt-hurt you're enduring over my post.

Pistols, IN COMPARISON TO LONG GUNS, suck for stopping threats.

There, feel better? Butt hurt all gone now?

Still, I'll say it again. Pistols are SIDEARMS, meant for concealed carry. They stuck for stopping threats. A REAL firearm is a long gun. Pistols are a crappy compromise.

Oooooh....sorry.....you're butt-hurt back?

Never was butt hurt. Just letting you underscore what an imbecile you are.

carbuncle
07-01-2012, 12:22
Rule #2: Double Tap

Ditto. I think the one-shot-stop debate belongs next to 1911 vs Glock in the 1990s chapeter of firearms history.

English
07-02-2012, 08:01
Who ever said or thought that anyone should rely on one shot to stop?

English

chr_edw
07-02-2012, 13:37
Very little real world difference in preformance between any of the common cartridges in their premium offerings.

And here is my favorite yoda picture for those arguing above.

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m511/martialartdeals/yodabutthurt.jpg

M&P15T
07-02-2012, 15:03
Never was butt hurt. Just letting you underscore what an imbecile you are.

*SNIF*...

*SNIF*.....

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRAwSNZouGbpLYM75of-erIc25eq8HwLMXOlvnYEsKZcvPZc5je