Got a question........ [Archive] - Glock Talk

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DScottHewitt
06-26-2012, 12:05
Several people have posted very recently that Open Carry makes the Open Carrier a target for the bad guys to shoot him/her first.

It is stated as a fact, seems like. BUT, how about some documentation to back up the claim? If it is true, it should be possible for the people claiming it to prove it......

USCgrad
06-26-2012, 12:32
i think they are stating the obvious, i mean when i scan a room whether eating out or at the park i naturally zero in on the guy with the gun. So to me, it's probably likely that criminals do the same, don't need to back it up with statics<--oops "statistics", if its everyone's natural inclination to do so....

concretefuzzynuts
06-26-2012, 12:34
Do you really need stats, scottie? Or are you just stirring that pot?

RussP
06-26-2012, 13:51
Remember, there has been a case right here in Richmond, Virginia where two bad guys followed an open carrier into a BP Convenience store, grabbed his gun and in the ensuing struggle shot the OCer.

Will it happen again? Eventually, yes, it will happen again. It is just a matter of time and opportunity. Will it become a frequent occurrence? I don't know.

Who volunteers to be next? Perhaps everyone open carrying does every time they do so. They just haven't found a taker yet.

Patchman
06-26-2012, 14:05
OCing is fairly new, still fairly novel. In any given 24-hour period, in this country, how many people really OC?

Kind of like asking, in any 24-hour period, how many people leave their cars unlocked, or their house unlocked, and no one enters and steals things?

wjv
06-26-2012, 14:35
Other than the case that RussP mentioned, I don't know if there is any sort of trend that could be observed statistically.

I have OC'd a few times, but that was in a National Forest where it was legal to do so, and at the time Colorado did NOT have a CCW permit.

I have no problem with people OC'ing if they choose to do so (where it's legal to do so). I personally prefer concealed carry because it offers more options.

If you are OC'ing in a business, and a robbery goes down, you might be forced into taking some sort of action that you didn't want to take.

If you are carrying concealed, you have the choice as to if you wish to get involved, to what extend you wish to get involved, and can pick the timing to best benefit your tactics.

As Mas Ayoob has written many times (paraphrased): You make your choices and you live with the consequences.

I mostly carry a J-Frame .38 with a couple extra re-loads on speed strips. I know many people would consider me to be woefully under-armed, and dumb for not carrying a hi-capacity semi-auto with 4 extra 33 round magazines. . But I know the limitations of my J-Frame and have chosen to live with that "risk". If I'm ever attacked by 6 zombies and only have 5 shots, feel free to say :tongueout: to me. . .

I made my choice and will live (or not) with the consequences of that decision.

coachrowsey
06-26-2012, 14:55
IMO you just draw attention to your self & become a target. Don't need stats.

series1811
06-27-2012, 05:41
You say occasionally, meaning it happens from time to time. In another thread we are looking for exactly that information, the times OC'ers have been murdered with their own weapon. Would you please list the times you know of and provide the links to the incidents? It will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks... :thumbsup:

I thought of this one ten seconds after I read this post.

Emelio Briel.

And, everyone here I bet, knows his story, but not his name. And, that's the problem. It's hard to collate facts into a different category in our minds.

RussP
06-27-2012, 07:48
I thought of this one ten seconds after I read this post.

Emelio Briel.

And, everyone here I bet, knows his story, but not his name. And, that's the problem. It's hard to collate facts into a different category in our minds.He was shot while target shooting at a rock quarry by Platt and Matix, the FBI Miami Shootout shooters. They used Briel's car in several robberies before the shootout.

Five months later they also shot Jose Collazo (who also was targeting shooting, at another rock pit if I remember correctly) and left him for dead.

Don't know that those incidents qualify for inclusion in the "Open Carrier murdered with their own gun" classification.

LawScholar
06-27-2012, 07:53
You say occasionally, meaning it happens from time to time. In another thread we are looking for exactly that information, the times OC'ers have been murdered with their own weapon. Would you please list the times you know of and provide the links to the incidents? It will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks... :thumbsup:

Not having specific stories is exactly why I said occasionally. I remember reading news stories about it several times this year.

The phenomenon of needing a pinpoint cite to every opinion and statement in conversation is pretty Internet exclusive.

It has happened. That was my only point. :)

If I come across any ill add them here!

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/dec/03/4/teen-homicide-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-528082.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1291027_Open_carrier_robbed_of_his_firearm.html

Here's three OC disarms I found with a 5-minute google. One murder, two robberies. Sorry for forum links, my phone was stubborn about copying the links within.

series1811
06-27-2012, 08:27
He was shot while target shooting at a rock quarry by Platt and Matix, the FBI Miami Shootout shooters. They used Briel's car in several robberies before the shootout.

Five months later they also shot Jose Collazo (who also was targeting shooting, at another rock pit if I remember correctly) and left him for dead.

Don't know that those incidents qualify for inclusion in the "Open Carrier murdered with their own gun" classification.

But, why not? He was open carrying. They took his gun from him and they shot him with his own gun, if remember the ballistics forensics correctly.

People want new articles to match the framed question exactly. That rarely happens in real life.

Jon_R
06-27-2012, 08:42
But, why not? He was open carrying. They took his gun from him and they shot him with his own gun, if remember the ballistics forensics correctly.

People want new articles to match the framed question exactly. That rarely happens in real life.

It is probably pretty likely they waited until his gun was empty from shooting then took it from him at gun point. Why deal with a person with a loaded gun when you know it will be empty soon enough.

Same with why mess with someone clearly armed when there are so many unarmed to prey on. I bet guys 5' 2" 120 get mugged more then guys 6' 3" 250. As long as you can find the 5' 2" guys why bother with the bigger ones.

series1811
06-27-2012, 08:48
It is probably pretty likely they waited until his gun was empty from shooting then took it from him at gun point. Why deal with a person with a loaded gun when you know it will be empty soon enough.

Same with why mess with someone clearly armed when there are so many unarmed to prey on. I bet guys 5' 2" 120 get mugged more then guys 6' 3" 250. As long as you can find the 5' 2" guys why bother with the bigger ones.

They sure weren't shy about dealing with eight armed FBI agents.

Jon_R
06-27-2012, 08:53
They sure weren't shy about dealing with eight armed FBI agents.

They didn't have a choice. The agents cornered them and they fought pretty hard. Sure the bad guys would have preferred to keep being bad guys picking on the weak and vulnerable. Unless your desire is to go out in a blaze of glory or suicide by cop best to stick to the weakest targets you can find that have something worth taking makes for a longer career.

NDCent
06-27-2012, 09:36
Too bad the victim(s) shooting at the rock quarry/pits weren't CC'ing a bug, it MIGHT have prevented this.

RussP
06-27-2012, 09:39
I'm going to rearrange the parts of your post...The phenomenon of needing a pinpoint cite to every opinion and statement in conversation is pretty Internet exclusive.Really? Most legal opinions I read have specific cites, but notwithstanding that, yes, we do like pinpoint cites when references are made to specific incidents, or specific quantifying statements about a category, like your "occasionally" statement.Not having specific stories is exactly why I said occasionally. I remember reading news stories about it several times this year.

It has happened. That was my only point. :)I believe you are reading different posts about the same events.If I come across any ill add them here!

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/dec/03/4/teen-homicide-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-528082.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1291027_Open_carrier_robbed_of_his_firearm.html

Here's three OC disarms I found with a 5-minute google. One murder, two robberies. Sorry for forum links, my phone was stubborn about copying the links within.Your original post was regarding OC'ers murdered with their own weapon. The Richmond incident you found is definitely one, and, as far as I know, the only one in recent history.

Your other two links are about the same incident, the Milwaukee assault and robbery in 2010.

I'm going to move or copy posts about this side topic to the more relevant thread, Got a question........ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1429306), where we can continue the discussion.

See your there...

RottnJP
06-27-2012, 11:21
But, why not? He was open carrying. They took his gun from him and they shot him with his own gun, if remember the ballistics forensics correctly.

People want new articles to match the framed question exactly. That rarely happens in real life.

My recollection is that their MO was s little different from the "sudden grab" tactic... IIRC, they did the friendly "hey can I see that" thing, then popped him with it.

Personally, I don't generally OC for primarily this reason- the quick grab tactic, especially in a crowd or busy street. When I've OC'ed, it's been either out in the woods, or on the way home from the range, etc., just put the pistol in an OWB, and stopped for gas or a sandwich. Where I am is pretty rural, so no crowds to worry about, and no negative comments.

DScottHewitt
06-27-2012, 11:32
Do you really need stats, scottie? Or are you just stirring that pot?

I'm just asking a question. It seems to me most criminals {the exception being the Richmond BP case} would be more likely to look for someplace else to rob, if they see armed people ready to defend themselves and others.


Yet, in every OC thread, at least one person drops that little gem of "common knowledge" like there is a college thesis every one but me has read showing concrete proof it is a fact. Since it is always stated like it is fact.

DScottHewitt
06-27-2012, 11:34
Remember, there has been a case right here in Richmond, Virginia where two bad guys followed an open carrier into a BP Convenience store, grabbed his gun and in the ensuing struggle shot the OCer.

Will it happen again? Eventually, yes, it will happen again. It is just a matter of time and opportunity. Will it become a frequent occurrence? I don't know.

Who volunteers to be next? Perhaps everyone open carrying does every time they do so. They just haven't found a taker yet.

But, is that a sign of the times, or just one isolated incident? Are there other documented cases of bad guys targeting someone they know is armed, or do they usually seek easier prey?

DScottHewitt
06-27-2012, 11:37
IMO you just draw attention to your self & become a target. Don't need stats.

But, that is my point. You just flatly said that the OC person is "drawing attention to themselves and becoming a target". As though it is fact. But, you "don't need stats".


Yet, stats are the difference between something being true, and someone feeling it is that way........

DScottHewitt
06-27-2012, 11:39
He was shot while target shooting at a rock quarry by Platt and Matix, the FBI Miami Shootout shooters. They used Briel's car in several robberies before the shootout.

Five months later they also shot Jose Collazo (who also was targeting shooting, at another rock pit if I remember correctly) and left him for dead.

Don't know that those incidents qualify for inclusion in the "Open Carrier murdered with their own gun" classification.

Yes. My question is to OC persons going about their business, walking down the street. Eating at McDonald's when it is being cased. Because it usually stated as
"They will shoot you first if they rob the place or something".

As Russ notes, those cases cited were a different animal.

JAS104
06-27-2012, 12:09
This is an excerpt from miopencarry.org written by 'malignity.' Don't worry, this is NOT against open carry.


If you open carry, you’ll be shot first
While this could in fact be true in some circumstances, consider this. If someone is hell-bent in committing their crime, they are going to do so regardless of the presence of a firearm. The situation can either go as follows: One, a scout or lone criminal can come to commit their crime, realize that someone has a firearm, and call off the whole gig completely, deterring them from the scene. Two, the criminal simply barges in and attacks blindly without any consideration whatsoever to their surroundings. At this point, it does not matter if the firearm is concealed or open, as the criminal has already made up their mind as to what they plan on doing, and is probably completely unaware of the firearm on someone’s hip. The last situation would be that someone scouted out and planned their attack ahead of time, and they do target you first. There is no way in knowing whether or not you would have been targeted first anyway; a bank robber intent on killing everyone in a bank who happens to be full of women with the exception of one man is obviously going to kill the greatest threat first, which perceived by most is going to be the male. This man would have been killed first because he is male, not because he is carrying a firearm. There is no evidence to support the fallacy that open carriers get shot first.

JAS104
06-27-2012, 12:10
Have no idea why that ^ is such weird format. Sorry!

Embedded line breaks. I fixed it for you...RussP

series1811
06-27-2012, 12:23
Well, again, the problem remains that no body keeps statistics on criminal acts against open carriers.

Which leaves antedoctal evidence and one group saying, "Well, I have heard of it, or seen it, happening, so it can happen," and anther group saying, "Well, I have never heard of it, or seen it, happening, so it can't happen".

To find out through news articles poses two problems.

1. Many, many smaller communities have no newspaper, or have one that does not contribute to the AP or post news on the internet.

2. Even if they do, the reporter may not have deemed the circumstance of the victim's gun carrying status as worth reporting, or worth getting correct. I think anyone who has read an article about something he has personal knowledge about, realizes how inaccurate, or lacking in pertinent facts most news articles are.

It's like asking a police officer to produce newspaper articles, backing up his knowledge and experience that lack of situational awareness makes you more likely to be a victim.

RussP
06-27-2012, 14:30
Remember, there has been a case right here in Richmond, Virginia where two bad guys followed an open carrier into a BP Convenience store, grabbed his gun and in the ensuing struggle shot the OCer.

Will it happen again? Eventually, yes, it will happen again. It is just a matter of time and opportunity. Will it become a frequent occurrence? I don't know.

Who volunteers to be next? Perhaps everyone open carrying does every time they do so. They just haven't found a taker yet.But, is that a sign of the times, or just one isolated incident? Are there other documented cases of bad guys targeting someone they know is armed, or do they usually seek easier prey?Unarmed man attempts to rob EMU student of holstered gun (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1417413)

beatcop
06-27-2012, 14:44
Do you really need stats, scottie?

The old cop saying is that "every call is a gun call"...meaning you bring one to the event and things happen.

You walk around with a firearm in view, it can come into play.

How big an issue is this? I'm not sure. I'd probably say "not very", but you have to have enough sense to do the math and see if you're in a risky environment.

There's another factor at play, "you". Who wants to say they're weak, indecisive, "soft" looking? Who looks like a victim? Let's face it, appearance plays a role.

RussP
06-27-2012, 14:53
The old cop saying is that "every call is a gun call"...meaning you bring one to the event and things happen.

You walk around with a firearm in view, it can come into play.

How big an issue is this? I'm not sure. I'd probably say "not very", but you have to have enough sense to do the math and see if you're in a risky environment.

There's another factor at play, "you". Who wants to say they're weak, indecisive, "soft" looking? Who looks like a victim? Let's face it, appearance plays a role.Very true...