CA: Man with conceal carry permit stops robbery [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Quiet
06-27-2012, 05:24
Since the media rarely reports on stuff like this...

Mercury News: 06-25-2012 (http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_20937117/vallejo-man-permitted-concealed-weapon-stops-restaurant-robbery)

Suspect entered a Subway resturant, ordered a sandwhich then brandished a knife and demanded cash.

A resturant customer, 25 year old male from Vallejo, with a CA conceal carry permit drew his handgun and confronted the suspect.

The suspect then fled the resturant.

Police are still looking for the suspect.

IndyGunFreak
06-27-2012, 05:36
The sad thing is, in that crazy state.. he'll be "the suspect" and will probably face charges for brandishing. ( I know I'm sensationalizing, but CA never ceases to amaze me)

IGF

Quiet
06-27-2012, 05:53
The sad thing is, in that crazy state.. he'll be "the suspect" and will probably face charges for brandishing. ( I know I'm sensationalizing, but CA never ceases to amaze me)

IGF

From what I've heard, second had from CHP, the conceal carry permit holder was questioned and released, no charges filed.

ca survivor
06-27-2012, 16:21
stupid move, I won't act unless he points the knife at me and wants MY money.

zo6kid
06-27-2012, 16:24
Amen Brother !!

TBO
06-27-2012, 16:38
From what I've heard, second had from CHP, the conceal carry permit holder was questioned and released, no charges filed.
Did he talk to the Police?

Quiet
06-28-2012, 01:53
Did he talk to the Police?

Yes.
Responding LEOs detained him (disarmed & handcuffed) and questioned him.
His statements matched other witness statements and after they verified he had a valid CA LTC permit, he was released (uncuffed & handgun returned).

IhRedrider
06-28-2012, 11:32
stupid move, I won't act unless he points the knife at me and wants MY money.

Ignorant statement.

YOU have no idea what the threat perceived by the customer was. THAT is the ONLY justifiable reason to use deadly force, SELF PROTECTION.

If you use deadly force to protect your money, you will have a jury decide your fate, and they will probably convict you.

seed
06-28-2012, 11:41
What you guys are missing is that there is a very good chance that this guy got his permit from another section of the state (i.e. he may not live in Vallejo). I know for sure if he lived in Contra Costa County which has the very violent Richmond in it, there is an almost zero percent chance he could have gotten a CCW. So only non-residents visiting Richmond -- one of the most violent cities in the country can have CCW's. I'm not sure about the policies of Solano County, but Vallejo is no picnic either. Perhaps it is hard to get a CCW there, unless you know someone...not sure though.

RussP
06-28-2012, 12:45
Here is an image showing the permit issuing status in CA.

Quiet
06-28-2012, 13:06
Here is an image showing the permit issuing status in CA.

That map is out of date by over four years.
Some counties got better and some got worse.

oldman11
06-28-2012, 13:17
That map is out of date by over four years.
Some counties got better and some got worse.
I saw nothing on the map that dated it. If you have a more up to date map, then show it or tell us where it's at.

professorpinki
06-28-2012, 13:58
Ignorant statement.

YOU have no idea what the threat perceived by the customer was. THAT is the ONLY justifiable reason to use deadly force, SELF PROTECTION.

If you use deadly force to protect your money, you will have a jury decide your fate, and they will probably convict you.
Kitty Genovese must have loved people like you.

The guy's prepared to engage in the negotiations of lives or grave injury for cash. Checked his own life and rights at the door the second he did so; he's not merely breaking in and stealing your neighbor's crap, like what happened when Joe Horn shot those two in Texas.

But state laws vary, and so do local laws, and so everyone has their own opinion based off of their perceptions of those laws and their perception of the intent and so on and so forth ad nauseum.

RussP
06-28-2012, 14:32
That map is out of date by over four years.
Some counties got better and some got worse.CARRY LICENSE INITIATIVE - COUNTIES (http://calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/resources/ccw-initiative)

This should be better...

DScottHewitt
06-28-2012, 15:24
Did he talk to the Police?

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/641/tbo1.jpg
By dscotthewitt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dscotthewitt) at 2012-06-21

seed
06-28-2012, 20:11
CARRY LICENSE INITIATIVE - COUNTIES (http://calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/resources/ccw-initiative)

This should be better...

The situation is apparently even worse now than it was... Imagine that...

crazi_e
06-28-2012, 20:13
Good for him, sucks the suspect got away

greentriple
06-28-2012, 20:18
Here is an image showing the permit issuing status in CA.

Incorrect definition for "may issue".


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Nanuk
06-28-2012, 22:08
Ignorant statement.

YOU have no idea what the threat perceived by the customer was. THAT is the ONLY justifiable reason to use deadly force, SELF PROTECTION.

If you use deadly force to protect your money, you will have a jury decide your fate, and they will probably convict you.

The minute he threatens you with deadly force (KNIFE) "FOR" your money, you are not protecting your money, you are protecting "YOURSELF".

Mister_Beefy
06-29-2012, 00:20
armed americans should be outlawed. they are a threat to the livelihood of honest union members.

RussP
06-29-2012, 08:30
That map is out of date by over four years.
Some counties got better and some got worse.Quiet, do you have a better map? Please post it.

RussP
06-29-2012, 08:32
Incorrect definition for "may issue". Do you have an illustration with the correct definition?

greentriple
06-29-2012, 09:40
Do you have an illustration with the correct definition?

Sure RussP,
Many people I know w/out contacts or personal relationships have CCW b/c of the particulars in their lives demonstrate a need to carry a gun.


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RussP
06-29-2012, 10:01
Do you have an illustration with the correct definition?Sure RussP,
Many people I know w/out contacts or personal relationships have CCW b/c of the particulars in their lives demonstrate a need to carry a gun. Thanks for your response.

I believe the authors of the map did not intend their comment on "May Issue" to be a "definition". I see it more as an editorial opinion.

Would it be more acceptable for them to say, "Generally, one must be connected or show need?"

Here is the email contact for the authors, CaliforniaConcealedCarry.com: aclueseau@yahoo.com with a Cc to TBJWebmaster@Gmail.com
You can ask them to better define "May Issue".

:cool:

Quiet
06-30-2012, 05:42
Quiet, do you have a better map? Please post it.

There is no up-to-date map.

Last map came out about 1.5 years ago.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f337/clownburner/OCCCWS/ca_ccw_map-big.png

The map should not be taken as the final word on permit issuance.

Per CA laws, any City police department and County Sheriff can issue a CA LTC permit. The above map reflects what is generally known about the County Sheriff's issuance policy.

steveksux
06-30-2012, 05:59
stupid move, I won't act unless he points the knife at me and wants MY money.
How do you figure its a stupid move? Honest question.

The cops didn't think it was a stupid move, they handed his weapon back and probably shook his hand once they verified he was the good guy. Even in California, hardly a gun friendly state.

Once someone corners people with a deadly weapon, pretty much he's fair game in any state of the union. Even in NYC, Bernard Getz didn't get any charges related to the shooting, only for permit related issues if memory serves. ETA: Memory doesn't serve, he was charged for the shootings, but was acquitted. Apparently the citizens of New York had more sense than the prosecutors.

Randy

RussP
06-30-2012, 07:10
There is no up-to-date map.

Last map came out about 1.5 years ago.

The map should not be taken as the final word on permit issuance.

Per CA laws, any City police department and County Sheriff can issue a CA LTC permit. The above map reflects what is generally known about the County Sheriff's issuance policy.So, when Sheriffs change, so could permit policy.

Thanks for the newer map. :thumbsup:

SCmasterblaster
06-30-2012, 12:02
stupid move, I won't act unless he points the knife at me and wants MY money.

True, so true. We have to always be thinking of the far-in-the-future court case. Now if someone comes into a place of business and starts shooting random people, he will be ventilated by my G17. :whistling:

Quiet
06-30-2012, 13:35
So, when Sheriffs change, so could permit policy.

Yes.

Orange County is an example of that.

The last Sheriff got elected with the promise to issue permits for personal protection and he kept that promise.

The current Sheriff (former LAPD) was brought in by the County Board of Supervisors and she revoked/would not renew the majority of the permits that were issued for personal protection under the last Sheriff and implemented a issuance program similar to that of the Los Angeles County Sheriff.

IhRedrider
06-30-2012, 14:45
The minute he threatens you with deadly force (KNIFE) "FOR" your money, you are not protecting your money, you are protecting "YOURSELF".

Kitty Genovese must have loved people like you.

The guy's prepared to engage in the negotiations of lives or grave injury for cash. Checked his own life and rights at the door the second he did so; he's not merely breaking in and stealing your neighbor's crap, like what happened when Joe Horn shot those two in Texas.

But state laws vary, and so do local laws, and so everyone has their own opinion based off of their perceptions of those laws and their perception of the intent and so on and so forth ad nauseum.


I think I wasn't clear. The only defense you have for using deadly force is self defense.

If for example, someone committed armed robbery of a store with me in it, I would feel that my life was in danger, therefore, ..... self defense.

If someone was being attacked, I would step up in their defense. And if the attackers turned their attack on me, ...... self defense.

The point is, deadly force in self defense is defensible. Deadly force to protect property, not defensible.

I'm not saying that I don't understand the desire to terminate a thief. I do. I hate a thief. But I would not condone the termination of a thief for being a thief, but if I feel my life is in danger, I will do what ever it takes to terminate that threat.


My original post was actually in defense of the armed citizen.

Badger54
07-01-2012, 04:05
Has Solano County changed there CCW policy recently I heard it was nearly impossible to get issued a CCW their?

FireGuy
07-01-2012, 20:03
The idea that the use of deadly force to protect property is illegal or immoral is one of the areas we will have to agree to disagree. Besides the differences in state laws, what some would see as a simply theft could result in a life threatening situation. Steal a horse from a stable and you have a simply theft. Take that same horse while I'm camping in Arizona and you are endangering my life. Your decision to shoot or not is your decision. My decision may be different. Both are right and wrong.

greentriple
07-01-2012, 20:40
Yup


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oldman11
07-01-2012, 21:18
I think I wasn't clear. The only defense you have for using deadly force is self defense.

If for example, someone committed armed robbery of a store with me in it, I would feel that my life was in danger, therefore, ..... self defense.

If someone was being attacked, I would step up in their defense. And if the attackers turned their attack on me, ...... self defense.

The point is, deadly force in self defense is defensible. Deadly force to protect property, not defensible.

I'm not saying that I don't understand the desire to terminate a thief. I do. I hate a thief. But I would not condone the termination of a thief for being a thief, but if I feel my life is in danger, I will do what ever it takes to terminate that threat.


My original post was actually in defense of the armed citizen.
All the inmates in prisons agree that you shouldn't use deadly force when they are robbing you. :whistling:

professorpinki
07-02-2012, 18:33
I think I wasn't clear. The only defense you have for using deadly force is self defense.

If for example, someone committed armed robbery of a store with me in it, I would feel that my life was in danger, therefore, ..... self defense.

If someone was being attacked, I would step up in their defense. And if the attackers turned their attack on me, ...... self defense.

The point is, deadly force in self defense is defensible. Deadly force to protect property, not defensible.

I'm not saying that I don't understand the desire to terminate a thief. I do. I hate a thief. But I would not condone the termination of a thief for being a thief, but if I feel my life is in danger, I will do what ever it takes to terminate that threat.


My original post was actually in defense of the armed citizen.

My apologies for misunderstanding.

DScottHewitt
07-03-2012, 10:49
So, when Sheriffs change, so could permit policy.

Thanks for the newer map. :thumbsup:



Which is why we are lucky to live in VA, Bra.

DScottHewitt
07-03-2012, 10:50
I think I wasn't clear. The only defense you have for using deadly force is self defense.

If for example, someone committed armed robbery of a store with me in it, I would feel that my life was in danger, therefore, ..... self defense.

If someone was being attacked, I would step up in their defense. And if the attackers turned their attack on me, ...... self defense.

The point is, deadly force in self defense is defensible. Deadly force to protect property, not defensible.

I'm not saying that I don't understand the desire to terminate a thief. I do. I hate a thief. But I would not condone the termination of a thief for being a thief, but if I feel my life is in danger, I will do what ever it takes to terminate that threat.


My original post was actually in defense of the armed citizen.

How about self-defense in defense of another person? That applies, many places.

IhRedrider
07-03-2012, 14:08
My apologies for misunderstanding.

No problem, the issue is not easy.

All the inmates in prisons agree that you shouldn't use deadly force when they are robbing you.

Do try and stay on topic. What you are implying (that I don't support self defense) is beyond retarded. I apologize to the retarded for insulting them by comparing you to them. That was unfair.

I was clear. Self defense is a justified use of deadly force. Protecting stuff is not. That does not mean you do not have the right to protect that which is yours. And if in the act of protecting your stuff, your life is threatened... see the self defense point.


How about self-defense in defense of another person? That applies, many places.

It may and it may not, I don't know the particulars of when this is applicable. However, you have the right to step up in defense of another person, and if in the defense of the other person your life is threatened... see self defense.

There may be a time when self defense is NOT an acceptable defense for deadly force, I don't know when that is. But I don't really care, If I am defending my life, there are no rules, only life and death and I choose life.

RussP
07-13-2012, 08:58
Which is why we are lucky to live in VA, Bra.Amen!!!

oldman11
07-13-2012, 09:19
Once he produced a weapon (knife or gun) it is now armed robbery.

IndyGunFreak
07-13-2012, 10:03
There is no up-to-date map.

Last map came out about 1.5 years ago.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f337/clownburner/OCCCWS/ca_ccw_map-big.png

The map should not be taken as the final word on permit issuance.

Per CA laws, any City police department and County Sheriff can issue a CA LTC permit. The above map reflects what is generally known about the County Sheriff's issuance policy.

Interesting map, thanks for posting.

Goes along w/ pretty much everything I've heard/read about Cali... Northern part of the state, you have a pretty good shot. Along the coast, and you're almost guaranteed to be screwed.. I'd always thought San Diego was "fairly" CCW friendly. That was the only one that really surprised me.

Glock_9mm
07-13-2012, 12:36
As a CA resident I find it ironic that the counties that have the worst violence also make it very difficult or impossible to obtain a CCW. Oakland-Alameda County, Richmond-Contra Costa County, Los Angeles-Los Angeles County. :dunno: The only county that does is San Joaquin, which has the lovely city of Stockton! Sacramento County has done an about face and has a over a year long back log of people wanting to obtain their CCW. The waiting list is so long, they are no longer taking applications. At the same time the budget cuts keep coming and there are less & less police on the streets...not good. :steamed:

I have my live scan end of this month...which is the final step to get my CCW. :supergrin: It took me about 4 months, thankfully I am in another county!
Scott

Billspider
07-13-2012, 13:26
Interesting map, thanks for posting.

Goes along w/ pretty much everything I've heard/read about Cali... Northern part of the state, you have a pretty good shot. Along the coast, and you're almost guaranteed to be screwed.. I'd always thought San Diego was "fairly" CCW friendly. That was the only one that really surprised me.

I am giving a link to NYS LAW concerning the Use of Deadly Force.

The Laws in NYS will surprise many people on this board.

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.htm (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.htm)

Billspider
07-13-2012, 13:34
No problem, the issue is not easy.



Do try and stay on topic. What you are implying (that I don't support self defense) is beyond retarded. I apologize to the retarded for insulting them by comparing you to them. That was unfair.

I was clear. Self defense is a justified use of deadly force. Protecting stuff is not. That does not mean you do not have the right to protect that which is yours. And if in the act of protecting your stuff, your life is threatened... see the self defense point.




It may and it may not, I don't know the particulars of when this is applicable. However, you have the right to step up in defense of another person, and if in the defense of the other person your life is threatened... see self defense.

There may be a time when self defense is NOT an acceptable defense for deadly force, I don't know when that is. But I don't really care, If I am defending my life, there are no rules, only life and death and I choose life.

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.htm

Above are the laws in NYS concerning the use of deadly force. Everyone on this board should know the laws in their State and any State they visit and carry.

bigyela
07-13-2012, 16:32
Which is why we are lucky to live in VA, Bra.

+1

between the forest fires,mudslides,crime,gangs,pollution, earthquakes,traffic and finally the gun laws...

one state i will never call home...i would like to visit briefly though..

SCmasterblaster
07-13-2012, 16:34
Oh no. Did the crime-stopper use a Glock?

HKLovingIT
07-13-2012, 20:11
Here is an image showing the permit issuing status in CA.


Interesting graphic. Is it a reasonable guess that the "will issue" places are the more rural locations? Not really familiar with the PRK outside of a couple cities.

RussP
07-13-2012, 21:30
Interesting graphic. Is it a reasonable guess that the "will issue" places are the more rural locations? Not really familiar with the PRK outside of a couple cities.Yes...

unit1069
07-13-2012, 22:05
stupid move, I won't act unless he points the knife at me and wants MY money.

I have to disagree with you. An assailant can close the distance of 7 yards in 1.5 seconds and an armed robber in the situation described was a dire threat to everyone in the place of business.

As convoluted and illogical the State of California laws are regarding the CCW licensing, carrying, and use of deadly handgun laws are the fact that LEO debriefed the customer (and presumably other customers) then returned his handgun should tell you something about the gravity of the situation. It certainly seems that California LEO appreciate the seriousness of the situation and are simpatico with the CCW defender's resort to drawing his weapon --- for the benefit of himself and everyone else on the premises.

Just how much time do you think would elapse had the robber turned his attention to you for whatever reason? Do you think you'd have the time to recognize the deadly intent, draw your weapon and fire on the perp?

My own response would be to draw my weapon as a positive reactive possibility I might need to defend myself and possibly others against this criminal while his attention was focused on someone else.

tlcwrites
07-13-2012, 23:44
As a CA resident I find it ironic that the counties that have the worst violence also make it very difficult or impossible to obtain a CCW.

Some would say (says someone who lives in one of the "no way in hell" counties in CA) that it's cause-and-effect, not irony.

Tammy

Quiet
07-14-2012, 01:47
:whistling:

CA Penal Code 197
Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.

FireForged
07-14-2012, 12:35
I had no idea that a person could even obtain a permit in CA? :faint:

liberty addict
07-14-2012, 15:31
Some would say (says someone who lives in one of the "no way in hell" counties in CA) that it's cause-and-effect, not irony.

Tammy

Tammy, I'm sure you are right, it IS cause and effect; but that is due to the average Joe Blow being too dumb to realize that the "fewer guns = less crime" crap they get fed is WRONG (and also due to the average person not willing to carry a gun to counter crime). In shall-issue states like where I live, we see violent crime lessening.

tlcwrites
07-14-2012, 17:24
Tammy, I'm sure you are right, it IS cause and effect; but that is due to the average Joe Blow being too dumb to realize that the "fewer guns = less crime" crap they get fed is WRONG (and also due to the average person not willing to carry a gun to counter crime).

Yes, this is what I meant. The areas that make getting an LTC (the California term) hard have higher crime BECAUSE the criminals know they're less likely to encounter an armed victim. It's shameful that county sheriffs (who are elected officials here) can get away with holding our Second Amendment rights hostage to their personal political ideologies like this, and to my way of thinking it's even more shameful that the general public is too uninformed to recognize that their safety is being sacrificed on the alter of politics. Especially when my local law enforcement agencies are so understaffed and underfunded.

Tammy

RJ's Guns
07-14-2012, 18:38
stupid move, I won't act unless he points the knife at me and wants MY money.

I decided years ago that in such a situation "I won't act unless he points the knife at me and" threatens my life. But that does not mean that I will not be prepared to act. I know how little time it takes for someone to "close the distance" and make a remote threat an immediate threat and I will take that into consideration in how I proceed.
RJ

Chris Brines
07-14-2012, 19:35
Since the media rarely reports on stuff like this...

Mercury News: 06-25-2012 (http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_20937117/vallejo-man-permitted-concealed-weapon-stops-restaurant-robbery)

Suspect entered a Subway resturant, ordered a sandwhich then brandished a knife and demanded cash.

A resturant customer, 25 year old male from Vallejo, with a CA conceal carry permit drew his handgun and confronted the suspect.

The suspect then fled the resturant.

Police are still looking for the suspect.

I'm sure Californians are outraged. Since they seem to get outraged about nearly anything. I bet if I open this article I see at least one comment saying, "great, another vigilante with a gun playing cop". Personally, I see nothing wrong with a CHL holder stopping an armed robbery, and I commend this citizen. Now to read the article before I eat my words lol.

Bren
07-15-2012, 11:20
stupid move, I won't act unless he points the knife at me and wants MY money.

Maybe you won't even act then. Seems to me like people who are afraid to get involved are often also too scared to react to their own emergencies.

Billspider
07-15-2012, 11:58
I am saddened by some of the posts in this thread.

I would hope that if my loved ones were in danger someone would be brave enough to help.

Standing by while innocents are being threatened or hurt is cowardice no matter how you try to portray it. Especially if you have the means to help.

oldman11
07-15-2012, 12:25
Maybe you won't even act then. Seems to me like people who are afraid to get involved are often also too scared to react to their own emergencies.
You're right on that, Bren.

oldman11
07-15-2012, 12:32
I am saddened by some of the posts in this thread.

I would hope that if my loved ones were in danger someone would be brave enough to help.

Standing by while innocents are being threatened or hurt is cowardice no matter how you try to portray it. Especially if you have the means to help.
They are trying too hard to be politically correct.