Gary Johnson? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Kablam
06-27-2012, 12:53
Why have the Ron Paul supporters not talked much about Gary Johnson? He's the libertarian candidate correct? He actually has some "real" libertarian experience in an executive position. He's running for president, Ron Paul is not.

G-19
06-27-2012, 13:01
Very Good question, I can't wait to see the answers.

concretefuzzynuts
06-27-2012, 13:05
You've got to be kidding.

JBnTX
06-27-2012, 13:11
Because Ron Paul supporters and Gary Johnson supporters are from two different worlds.

Ron Paul supporters are less libertarianism and more selfish anarchism. Pro drug legalization, pay no taxes and a "hooray for me and to hell with you attitude".

Gary Johnson is a better representative of libertarianism and the responsibilities that go with it. Ron Paul supporters want none of that.

concretefuzzynuts
06-27-2012, 13:15
I've been a Libertarian since 1982. I won't vote for either Ron or Gary. The reason? It's more important in this election to get Obama out and there's no way Gary Johnson will win.

G-19
06-27-2012, 13:35
I've been a Libertarian since 1982. I won't vote for either Ron or Gary. The reason? It's more important in this election to get Obama out and there's no way Gary Johnson will win.

Thank you, finally someone gets it.

Kablam
06-27-2012, 14:49
You've got to be kidding.

Kidding about what please? I asked a legitimate question relating to all the Ron Paul talk and how he's the constituional guy and libertarian, etc. I find it interesting that the Libertarian candidate Johnson actually has a libertarian record in an executive position (delivered on his philosophy if you will) and nobody talks about him. Yet, Ron Paul, who has basically written and talked about the libertarian philosophy, but never led from an executive stand point, nor has he really accomplished any of his talking points, seems to get all the juice. Gary Johnson stands a better chance (abeit statistically the same) of getting elected than Ron Paul who is not running. If the "libertarians" want a libertarian president, why are they not supporting Johnson instead of Paul?

JFrame
06-27-2012, 15:05
The one time I saw Johnson speak in a public forum, I found him very dry and uninspiring. He might have been a great governor for all I know, but libertarians in general might perceive that he doesn't have the charisma or mojo to generate much enthusiasm on a national scale.

Just a thought, with absolutely nothing to back it up... :)


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Kablam
06-27-2012, 15:17
That makes some sense for sure, and I agree with you. I'm thinking about the "libertarians" that keep screaming that since their "libertarian" candidate didn't win the GOP primary, they will vote for Obama before they'll vote for Romney. Why don't they support the libertarian candidate that is running (Johnson) rather than the cadidate that couldn't be much more polar opposite (Obama) to what they espouse that they want. They say they're too principled to vote obama-lite (Romney), won't vote the lesser of two evils, the GOP sucks, etc., but they're not principled enough to vote for their party's nominee.

JFrame
06-27-2012, 15:22
That makes some sense for sure, and I agree with you. I'm thinking about the "libertarians" that keep screaming that since their "libertarian" candidate didn't win the GOP primary, they will vote for Obama before they'll vote for Romney. Why don't they support the libertarian candidate that is running (Johnson) rather than the cadidate that couldn't be much more polar opposite (Obama) to what they espouse that they want. They say they're too principled to vote obama-lite (Romney), won't vote the lesser of two evils, the GOP sucks, etc., but they're not principled enough to vote for their party's nominee.

Interesting point...Given how you present it, one can hardly look at a vote for Obama as not being a) a "punishment" vote; b) a vote to accelerate the drive over the cliff; or c) both.


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Kablam
06-27-2012, 15:28
agreed...my point.

Ruble Noon
06-27-2012, 15:28
That makes some sense for sure, and I agree with you. I'm thinking about the "libertarians" that keep screaming that since their "libertarian" candidate didn't win the GOP primary, they will vote for Obama before they'll vote for Romney. Why don't they support the libertarian candidate that is running (Johnson) rather than the cadidate that couldn't be much more polar opposite (Obama) to what they espouse that they want. They say they're too principled to vote obama-lite (Romney), won't vote the lesser of two evils, the GOP sucks, etc., but they're not principled enough to vote for their party's nominee.

Gary Johnson will be getting a lot of the Ron Paul supporters votes.

JFrame
06-27-2012, 15:33
Gary Johnson will be getting a lot of the Ron Paul supporters votes.


That may indeed be the case -- but I believe the OP's point is that we're not hearing much (if any) vocal support for Johnson.


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Ruble Noon
06-27-2012, 15:48
That may indeed be the case -- but I believe the OP's point is that we're not hearing much (if any) vocal support for Johnson.


.

Not on this forum anyhow.

chickenwing
06-27-2012, 15:54
The one time I saw Johnson speak in a public forum, I found him very dry and uninspiring. He might have been a great governor for all I know, but libertarians in general might perceive that he doesn't have the charisma or mojo to generate much enthusiasm on a national scale.

Just a thought, with absolutely nothing to back it up... :)


.

Good points.

Never heard him speak in person, but he wasn't very good in the debates and I think that is one of his problems.

I think some RP supporters are holding onto till the bitter end, thinking his delegate strategy will pan out.

JFrame
06-27-2012, 15:54
Not on this forum anyhow.


Fair enuff...


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chickenwing
06-27-2012, 16:04
That makes some sense for sure, and I agree with you. I'm thinking about the "libertarians" that keep screaming that since their "libertarian" candidate didn't win the GOP primary, they will vote for Obama before they'll vote for Romney. Why don't they support the libertarian candidate that is running (Johnson) rather than the cadidate that couldn't be much more polar opposite (Obama) to what they espouse that they want. They say they're too principled to vote obama-lite (Romney), won't vote the lesser of two evils, the GOP sucks, etc., but they're not principled enough to vote for their party's nominee.

If this election comes down to Barry, Mitt, and Gary, I will be voting for Gary.



The one thing I do like about Gary Johnson that you brought up is your point concerning executive experience, and I'd like to add business experience as well. Which makes him a better candidate then Ron.

Don't know if he has the money to compete with Barry and Mitt on a national scale, still will be interesting if a third party could gain some traction and shake things up a bit. Doubtful, never know though.

JFrame
06-27-2012, 16:08
Good points.

Never heard him speak in person, but he wasn't very good in the debates and I think that is one of his problems.

I think some RP supporters are holding onto till the bitter end, thinking his delegate strategy will pan out.


Good points also...! http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/good3.gif


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tyesai
06-27-2012, 16:08
I've been a Libertarian since 1982. I won't vote for either Ron or Gary. The reason? It's more important in this election to get Obama out and there's no way Gary Johnson will win.

"Not only is it immoral and undignified, itís destructive. Lesser or greater, evil is evil. By supporting one evil or the other, the voter becomes an accessory to the crime. Only a true intellectual revolution can restore dignity, trust, morality, decency and compassion." (Celente) http://lewrockwell.com/celente/celente100.html

I tend to agree. What I don't think a lot of people get is that although Ron Paul was a focal point on the national stage it isn't about him. For me it is about being true to my core values which is far more important than which one of the two puppets gets crowned....

In the end I'll probably just abstain from voting in the national elections.

DonGlock26
06-27-2012, 16:14
Why have the Ron Paul supporters not talked much about Gary Johnson? He's the libertarian candidate correct? He actually has some "real" libertarian experience in an executive position. He's running for president, Ron Paul is not.

Because the Democrat faux RP supporters don't see GJ taking votes away from Romney in any numbers.


_

Kablam
06-27-2012, 16:27
I'm not a big Gary Johnson supporter for president, although I did support him and liked him as governer. Extremely successful governer.

I think one of (not the only) the reasons his charisma may not seem up to snuff is that he takes a very simple approach to governence. Should the gov be doing this (both constitutionally and cost-benefit) and balance the budget now. His balance the budget now scheme is to cut spending because that is what he has some control over. He doesn't have a long protracted spew about raising revenues with taxes and incentives becasue he can't control that as quickly as he can spending. So he really doesn't have that much to say...for good or bad.

Oops...hijacked my own thread. LOL

concretefuzzynuts
06-27-2012, 16:48
"Not only is it immoral and undignified, itís destructive. Lesser or greater, evil is evil. By supporting one evil or the other, the voter becomes an accessory to the crime. Only a true intellectual revolution can restore dignity, trust, morality, decency and compassion." (Celente) http://lewrockwell.com/celente/celente100.html

I tend to agree. What I don't think a lot of people get is that although Ron Paul was a focal point on the national stage it isn't about him. For me it is about being true to my core values which is far more important than which one of the two puppets gets crowned....

In the end I'll probably just abstain from voting in the national elections.

Then you will have voted Obama back in. :dunno:

concretefuzzynuts
06-27-2012, 16:48
Kidding about what please? I asked a legitimate question relating to all the Ron Paul talk and how he's the constituional guy and libertarian, etc. I find it interesting that the Libertarian candidate Johnson actually has a libertarian record in an executive position (delivered on his philosophy if you will) and nobody talks about him. Yet, Ron Paul, who has basically written and talked about the libertarian philosophy, but never led from an executive stand point, nor has he really accomplished any of his talking points, seems to get all the juice. Gary Johnson stands a better chance (abeit statistically the same) of getting elected than Ron Paul who is not running. If the "libertarians" want a libertarian president, why are they not supporting Johnson instead of Paul?

Answered in post #5.

thetoastmaster
06-27-2012, 16:53
I voted for Dr. Paul in the primary, and will vote for Gary Johnson in the general. I never had any serious thoughts of Dr. Paul getting the GOP nomination; but I could try. I did. Between Newt Obamney and Gary Johnson, I'll try again for a candidate that puts liberty and principle over political expediency.

It's either that, or stay home on Super Tuesday (which is only figurative; I take early paper ballots).

Ruble Noon
06-27-2012, 16:56
Gary Johnson might gain some traction after obama's second term.

Kablam
06-27-2012, 17:47
Answered in post #5.

I got that....sorry. I didn't mean to sound like a jerk. Your response makes sense.

aspartz
06-27-2012, 18:50
If this election comes down to Barry, Mitt, and Gary, I will be voting for Gary.

As will I. If the GOP actually wanted my vote, they would have found someone the run who actually espoused smaller government.

ARS

concretefuzzynuts
06-27-2012, 19:11
I got that....sorry. I didn't mean to sound like a jerk. Your response makes sense.

No jerk, no sense. Just thoughts floating around......dude.

thetoastmaster
06-27-2012, 19:55
As will I. If the GOP actually wanted my vote, they would have found someone the run who actually espoused smaller government.

ARS

Republicans for smaller government? Didn't that go out with the Charleston, flappers and 23 Skidoo?

Kablam
06-27-2012, 19:59
True. The intent of the post was to drill into why so many rabid RP "libertarians" would vote fro Obama instead of supporting the libertarian candidate. Just want to hear it from them is all.

thetoastmaster
06-27-2012, 20:09
True. The intent of the post was to drill into why so many rabid RP "libertarians" would vote fro Obama instead of supporting the libertarian candidate. Just want to hear it from them is all.

That's an interesting notion; but it hasn't been my experience.

I do know one former Obama supporter (OWS-type) that was fired up for Dr. Paul after Obama disappointed her greatly. I'll have to find out where she stands now. No way she's voting for Romney; but she might cast a ballot for Johnson, if she agrees with him on the issues.

JBnTX
06-27-2012, 20:11
True. The intent of the post was to drill into why so many rabid RP "libertarians" would vote fro Obama instead of supporting the libertarian candidate. Just want to hear it from them is all.


You've asked a very important and valid question.

On this forum most of the hardcore libertarians have never even mentioned Gary Johnson's name.

In fact, they've stated repeatedly that ONLY Ron Paul could save America. It was Ron Paul or nobody.

Since Ron Paul has dropped out, they've all gone silent on the matter?

BORNGEARHEAD
06-27-2012, 20:17
I'm voting for Gary Johnson.

ChuteTheMall
06-27-2012, 20:25
There is only one way to effectively vote against Obama, and that is by uniting behind the one and only candidate who can defeat him.

Doing anything else supports Obama. But you knew that.:tinfoil:

ChuteTheMall
06-27-2012, 20:26
Since Ron Paul has dropped out, they've all gone silent on the matter?

Hopefully.:whistling:

Kablam
06-27-2012, 20:30
I think Jframe has the answer in a previous post on this thread. Maybe my perception of what I read was wrong. Just seems that there was a very vocal group of dooms day RP supporters (I don't mean that as derogatory) on this forum that stated they would vote for Obama over the GOP candidate if RP didn't get the nomination instead of supporting the only libertarian candidate running in the election. I was trying to understand that group's logic is all.

thetoastmaster
06-27-2012, 20:36
I think Jframe has the answer in a previous post on this thread. Maybe my perception of what I read was wrong. Just seems that there was a very vocal group of dooms day RP supporters (I don't mean that as derogatory) on this forum that stated they would vote for Obama over the GOP candidate if RP didn't get the nomination instead of supporting the only libertarian candidate running in the election. I was trying to understand that group's logic is all.

I never read that. Maybe it's hyperbole. Maybe it's desperation. I don't know. I've been a Dr. Paul fan since the late nineties. Coincidentally, the last GOP presidential candidate I voted for was Bob Dole. The way I see it, a vote for Gary Johnson is no worse than staying home. If there were only two candidates on the ballot, I'd leave that race blank; so you can count me as a Dr. Paul supporter voting for Gary Johnson.

lancesorbenson
06-27-2012, 20:39
I'll be voting for Gary Johnson. Won't matter because the "less liberal" of the major parties will win my state handily.

I know a lot of RP supporters and none that I know of will be voting for BHO. I don't know where this idea came from that there are legions of RP supporters who are secretly Obama plants. The only people I've heard say that are our resident RP "experts" here.

Ruble Noon
06-27-2012, 20:40
There is only one way to effectively vote against Obama, and that is by uniting behind the one and only candidate who can defeat him.

Doing anything else supports Obama. But you knew that.:tinfoil:

Good idea. Now we just need to find that one and only candidate. Got any suggestions?

beforeobamabans
06-27-2012, 20:53
Why have the Ron Paul supporters not talked much about Gary Johnson? .
The question should be, have you heard ANYTHING from Gary Johnson since he was nominated in early May? I haven't seen a single television appearance, ad, rally, protest, interview, nothing. He's the invisible candidate. What's to vote for?

As for Romney, it's really tough to get excited about the guy. You did not support him in the primary because you know he's really not your type:

Big Spender
Police-the-World Neo-Con
Goes both ways on gun issues
Goes both ways on life issues
Member of a cult religion

I could go on, but that should be enough. Once again, I'd like to thank the GOP for fielding such a stellar candidate against a very weak and beatable lefty Dem.

Kablam
06-27-2012, 21:00
The question should be, have you heard ANYTHING from Gary Johnson since he was nominated in early May? I haven't seen a single television appearance, ad, rally, protest, interview, nothing. He's the invisible candidate. What's to vote for?

That's kind of my point. Maybe if he had the support of his party he'd be more visible.

randrew379
06-27-2012, 22:04
The question should be, have you heard ANYTHING from Gary Johnson since he was nominated in early May? I haven't seen a single television appearance, ad, rally, protest, interview, nothing. He's the invisible candidate. What's to vote for?

As for Romney, it's really tough to get excited about the guy. You did not support him in the primary because you know he's really not your type:

Big Spender
Police-the-World Neo-Con
Goes both ways on gun issues
Goes both ways on life issues
Member of a cult religion

I could go on, but that should be enough. Once again, I'd like to thank the GOP for fielding such a stellar candidate against a very weak and beatable lefty Dem.

Face it, third party candidates rarely get media attention. I think that's why so many libertarian-leaning people were behind Paul- he has been articulating libertarian ideas from within one of the major parties.

Syclone538
06-27-2012, 23:58
Why have the Ron Paul supporters not talked much about Gary Johnson? He's the libertarian candidate correct? He actually has some "real" libertarian experience in an executive position. He's running for president, Ron Paul is not.

I really don't know a whole lot about him, but yeah, I'm pretty sure I'll be voting for him unless I find something I don't like when seriously looking at options in september/october. I will not vote for more government so the only choice I have other then LP is CP, and being atheist I'd rather not vote for someone who probably thinks the earth is <10,000 years old.


True. The intent of the post was to drill into why so many rabid RP "libertarians" would vote fro Obama instead of supporting the libertarian candidate. Just want to hear it from them is all.

How many are there? That just seems f n crazy to me. I was under the impression there were only 1 or 2.

beforeobamabans
06-28-2012, 02:08
Face it, third party candidates rarely get media attention. I think that's why so many libertarian-leaning people were behind Paul- he has been articulating libertarian ideas from within one of the major parties.

BINGO! I have always voted (R) under the "lessor of two evils" philosophy (and look where that's gotten us). I supported (notice the past tense) Paul in an attempt to move the party's needle more toward Tea Party type policy positions. I would never vote for Obama. But, I viewed Romney as the worst of the Republican primary field and the bile in my stomach over his nomination has yet to subside.

I suspect a good many voters who supported Paul in the primaries come at the process from a similar direction as I have. The proposition promoted by some of the shallow-thinkers on this board that all Paul supporters are closet Obama voters tells you a lot more about those posters' lack of cognitive resources than the political lay of the land.

walt cowan
06-28-2012, 05:27
bit soon to place bets. most paul supporters are waiting to see what happens at the convention. if paul doesn't win the ticket and doesn't run third party...johnson will get their votes. in a three way, johnson needs just 30% of the vote to take the general election.

Kablam
06-28-2012, 12:38
How many are there? That just seems f n crazy to me. I was under the impression there were only 1 or 2.

Like I said, I may have been wrong in my perception or interpretation of what I read here. Pretty vocal 1 or 2 on this forum if that's the case. I'll slink back to my corner now. :dunno:

JFrame
06-28-2012, 12:41
Like I said, I may have been wrong in my perception or interpretation of what I read here. Pretty vocal 1 or 2 on this forum if that's the case. I'll slink back to my corner now. :dunno:


Nah -- no slinking necessary around here (except by leftists who've earned that privilege through their duplicity).

An issue can't be addressed unless it's raised... :)


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RCP
06-28-2012, 13:25
I'll be voting for Gary Johnson. Won't matter because the "less liberal" of the major parties will win my state handily.

I know a lot of RP supporters and none that I know of will be voting for BHO. I don't know where this idea came from that there are legions of RP supporters who are secretly Obama plants. The only people I've heard say that are our resident RP "experts" here.

That's my plan as well.:wavey:

evlbruce
06-28-2012, 13:34
Charisma issues aside, I think Johnson would have been a better choice for the Liberty movement to back than Ron. Gary is quicker on his intellectual toes and can explain libertarian philosophy in a pragmatic way.

That aside, I'm increasingly of a mind that third party voting is a waste of effort: What's the point of voting when you know that there is no chance of getting policy you want?

Bren
06-28-2012, 13:51
Why have the Ron Paul supporters not talked much about Gary Johnson? He's the libertarian candidate correct? He actually has some "real" libertarian experience in an executive position. He's running for president, Ron Paul is not.

I doubt they want to be identified with Libertarians - even as the biggest third party (I guess) they have no significant political presence or chance of holding a major office. Not to mention, about 90% of the country thinks Libertarian is the same thing as either "anarchist" or "hedonist."

Ruble Noon
06-28-2012, 14:39
Charisma issues aside, I think Johnson would have been a better choice for the Liberty movement to back than Ron. Gary is quicker on his intellectual toes and can explain libertarian philosophy in a pragmatic way.

That aside, I'm increasingly of a mind that third party voting is a waste of effort: What's the point of voting when you know that there is no chance of getting policy you want?

True. The only thing accomplished when voting is determining who will and who will not use lube on you.

Mrs. Tink
06-28-2012, 17:22
Good idea. Now we just need to find that one and only candidate. Got any suggestions?

:supergrin: :beer:

Gary Johnson's daughter was in my honors convocation at CU, and he spoke at that event. He was amazing. Of course it could have been because it was his own daughter that was his inspiration. At that time he was the sitting governor.

I have always liked him, ever since then. I never talk about him on this forum because 1) of the people who think libertarianism is about anarchy and hedonism, as someone said, 2) because people think voting libertarian or any other party is "voting for Obama" and I just don't want to beat my head against that wall and 3) anytime I say anything about Ron Paul that's not negative toward him, or might be critical of those who constantly alienate his supporters, I get a huge, blind lash of hostility from people who don't bother to understand what I'm actually saying. If they say that about a GOP candidate, what would they say about an LP candidate?? No thanks.

I haven't decided whether I'll vote for him. But I definitely like him better than Romney.

JBnTX
06-28-2012, 17:37
... Not to mention, about 90% of the country thinks Libertarian is the same thing as either "anarchist" or "hedonist."


Where would they get such an awful idea?:whistling:

Ruble Noon
06-28-2012, 17:45
:supergrin: :beer:

Gary Johnson's daughter was in my honors convocation at CU, and he spoke at that event. He was amazing. Of course it could have been because it was his own daughter that was his inspiration. At that time he was the sitting governor.

I have always liked him, ever since then. I never talk about him on this forum because 1) of the people who think libertarianism is about anarchy and hedonism, as someone said, 2) because people think voting libertarian or any other party is "voting for Obama" and I just don't want to beat my head against that wall and 3) anytime I say anything about Ron Paul that's not negative toward him, or might be critical of those who constantly alienate his supporters, I get a huge, blind lash of hostility from people who don't bother to understand what I'm actually saying. If they say that about a GOP candidate, what would they say about an LP candidate?? No thanks.

I haven't decided whether I'll vote for him. But I definitely like him better than Romney.

:wavey:

jlavallee
06-28-2012, 18:28
Johnson isn't perfect but if the idiots in the GOP are stupid enough to put Romney up, I'm smart enough to tell them where to shove it.

chickenwing
06-28-2012, 19:04
:supergrin: :beer:

Gary Johnson's daughter was in my honors convocation at CU, and he spoke at that event. He was amazing. Of course it could have been because it was his own daughter that was his inspiration. At that time he was the sitting governor.

I have always liked him, ever since then. I never talk about him on this forum because 1) of the people who think libertarianism is about anarchy and hedonism, as someone said, 2) because people think voting libertarian or any other party is "voting for Obama" and I just don't want to beat my head against that wall and 3) anytime I say anything about Ron Paul that's not negative toward him, or might be critical of those who constantly alienate his supporters, I get a huge, blind lash of hostility from people who don't bother to understand what I'm actually saying. If they say that about a GOP candidate, what would they say about an LP candidate?? No thanks.

I haven't decided whether I'll vote for him. But I definitely like him better than Romney.

Well said Mrs. Tink.

thetoastmaster
06-28-2012, 20:56
Johnson isn't perfect but if the idiots in the GOP are stupid enough to put Romney up, I'm smart enough to tell them where to shove it.

I like that notion.

"Who's the more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows him?"
/obi wan

GAFinch
06-28-2012, 21:25
Not to mention, about 90% of the country thinks Libertarian is the same thing as either "anarchist" or "hedonist."

I saw Gary on Red Eye a couple weeks ago. He said that he didn't support decriminalizing drugs because it would free up police to go after drug dealers more.

BORNGEARHEAD
06-28-2012, 21:26
Gary Johnson

http://youtu.be/SpIM0vFbFck

Syclone538
06-29-2012, 00:37
Like I said, I may have been wrong in my perception or interpretation of what I read here. Pretty vocal 1 or 2 on this forum if that's the case. I'll slink back to my corner now. :dunno:

I'm glad you started this thread and looking back I'm surprised nobody started it earlier. Gary Johnson just isn't exciting, and I don't know why.

I've seen several people say that Romney is no better then Obama. That's not the same as saying "I'm voting for Obama."

Twice I've seen someone say they were planning on voting for Obama, though I don't know if it was the same person. One time the reason given was that the country is doomed already and they didn't want to see it fail under Libertarian leadership, because that would set back liberty for generations. I understand that argument, but strongly disagree with just giving up.

Syclone538
06-29-2012, 00:38
I saw Gary on Red Eye a couple weeks ago. He said that he didn't support decriminalizing drugs because it would free up police to go after drug dealers more.

Without seeing it, it sounds like they were talking about decriminalizing possession of small amounts for personal use.

427
06-29-2012, 00:48
Without seeing it, it sounds like they were talking about decriminalizing possession of small amounts for personal use.

In his second term as gov he came out about legalizing weed. I remember a number of high ranking LE people resigning over his stance.

jlavallee
06-29-2012, 16:00
Twice I've seen someone say they were planning on voting for Obama, though I don't know if it was the same person. One time the reason given was that the country is doomed already and they didn't want to see it fail under Libertarian leadership, because that would set back liberty for generations. I understand that argument, but strongly disagree with just giving up.

I had to re-read your statement as on first glance I was skimming. I get those that say that and I understand those just so disgusted with voting that they refuse to participate in a democratic BS rule system but the simple fact is that most people don't know diddly about our system of government or how it helped us acheive so much. The real wisdom of the founders was amazing when you really investigate it. I agree personally that we don't want to give up. If we can open eyes and stop the ignorance, people will realize that they are the power. Once people have woken up, few are able to go back to sleep and just believe the media and party propaganda.

There are huge numbers of people that are socially open minded and fiscal conservative just waiting to vote non Democrat but they're never given an alternative for the same reason many who vote GOP do, they buy into this "lesser evil" BS and because both sides steal liberty, they choose the one they can most do without. Sad. We can change it and it starts with stopping PC speach. Every time you hear someone on either side talk about how they feel they have the right to infringe on someone else, explain why their position is their right but forcing it on someone else isn't and say it loud.

GAFinch
06-29-2012, 22:40
Without seeing it, it sounds like they were talking about decriminalizing possession of small amounts for personal use.

Yes they were, and he opposed it. He only wants full legalization.

Syclone538
06-30-2012, 01:25
Yes they were, and he opposed it. He only wants full legalization.

Ok, so your other post was intentionally misleading?