Why LEOs should consider [conducting] armed citizen training programs [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RussP
06-27-2012, 16:58
Bridging the Gap
Why LEOs should consider [conducting] armed citizen training programs (http://www.lawofficer.com/article/leadership/bridging-gap)

Okay, lets agree that we all know the average cop can't shoot worth **** and has no business training anyone.

The average cop rarely shoots more than necessary for quals.

The average cop blah blah blah...
Now that we've gotten that out of the way..., oh wait, one more thing, all mandated training is unconstitutional.

Okay, now there is no need to include those topics in the thread.

Please, read the article before posting.

Thanks...

Our programs for citizen students include basic and advanced handgun, concealed carry techniques and hands-on women’s self-defense courses. Teaching these classes has become an excellent opportunity to interact with the citizens in our community. Over the last seven years, the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive and has paid big dividends above and beyond what we could have ever achieved with typical public relations programs. This article will offer examples of how using LE firearms instructors to teach armed citizen training can benefit both your agency and community.

ExAFCATM
06-27-2012, 18:41
I would have no problem with recieving training from any expierienced, certified, professional Period. With that said if one of the reasons to have LEO's teach civilians is to give the civilians an understanding of the law I would rather have a good Lawyer conduct that training. Much like I would rather have a EMT trainer teach me trauma first aid than a fireman.

But I have no problem training or recieving training from anyone that knows what they are doing and have been trained to actually instruct. I have a few LEO trainer friends and they are great at what they do. They will tell people the most obvious issues on the criminal code but then push the rest off to a lawyer. I also know of CCW instructors and LEO's that are "semi professional" and like to put thier self made Lawyer hat on while teaching. They talk down to thier students and give poor info. I do think the author has a great point of getting rid of the "us vs them stigma" unfortunately that may not transfer to other ajoining jurisdictions or even other officers in the same department. Whatever can make people safer and make things harder on the bad guys go for it.

MJC
06-27-2012, 22:50
I thought it was a good article and a novel idea that could possibly make interactions between law enforcement and the public smoother.

Caver 60
06-27-2012, 23:41
I thought it was generally a good article. I know most regulars on Glock Talk are already familiar with these subjects, but this comment struck me.

"Having our officers and community better informed about firearms interactions and how a “hot response” will occur has proven to be invaluable in actual situations."

I really wonder how many permit holders spend time with further education? We have a local LEO who has started teaching our states required course. I'm strongly considering paying for his course just to see what he teaches, although I've had my permit for about 8 years and there's no legal requirement to attend another course. I'm also former military.

wprebeck
06-28-2012, 03:05
I would have no problem with recieving training from any expierienced, certified, professional Period. With that said if one of the reasons to have LEO's teach civilians is to give the civilians an understanding of the law I would rather have a good Lawyer conduct that training. Much like I would rather have a EMT trainer teach me trauma first aid than a fireman.

But I have no problem training or recieving training from anyone that knows what they are doing and have been trained to actually instruct. I have a few LEO trainer friends and they are great at what they do. They will tell people the most obvious issues on the criminal code but then push the rest off to a lawyer. I also know of CCW instructors and LEO's that are "semi professional" and like to put thier self made Lawyer hat on while teaching. They talk down to thier students and give poor info. I do think the author has a great point of getting rid of the "us vs them stigma" unfortunately that may not transfer to other ajoining jurisdictions or even other officers in the same department. Whatever can make people safer and make things harder on the bad guys go for it.

My sister is an attorney. Guess who seriously thought it was "entrapment" for an officer to run radar at night, without lights? Another local lawyer, who is a know-it-all on another forum I frequent, and practices civil law, attempted to debate with me concerning criminal law. Not only had he never represented a criminal defendant, he wasn't even aware of the name or existence of the statewide criminal justice information system (courtnet). Be careful what you wish for when talking to an attorney. I'd sooner have a couple of cops in here represent me in court than a number of lawyers I know.Everyone has their weaknesses, and simply because one has passed the bar, doesn't make one an expert on criminal law.

jph02
06-28-2012, 07:43
...Be careful what you wish for when talking to an attorney...simply because one has passed the bar, doesn't make one an expert on criminal law.
Lawyers should come with their own disclaimer:
WARNING! May be harmful or fatal...
:rofl:

LoadToadBoss
06-28-2012, 07:55
From the article:

Your law director or equivalent can advise on language for liability releases
for any type of program you may have in mind.

I was wondering what liability a LEO shop would incur when it conducts armed citizen training courses. I guess the author already assumes that some liability is inherent. (Unless the liability spoken of relates to training accidents.) If a LEO is involved in a "bad shoot," the entire training program can be scrutinized. If Joe Bag-of-Donuts goes through the armed citizen training and is involved in a bad shoot, would the LEO shop get the same scrutiny? Just wondering.

ventura
06-28-2012, 09:25
The problems i have seen with police taught courses locally is that the police are often not as up to date or familiar with the carry laws because in many cases the laws do not apply to them so they do not live by them day to day and lack intimate familiarity.
Consequently the students are often given wrong information about the laws in the classes that could result in the students committing crimes based on the erroneous information.
Often people have attended those classes because they think the quality of training and information will be best.

emtjr928
06-28-2012, 09:38
I participated in a class recently conducted by a lt. Who not only was the department firearms instructor, sniper and a Glock armorer. Lots of great information on both shooting and the law. Great experience.
PS. Also found out we were fraternity brothers to boot.

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DScottHewitt
06-28-2012, 10:11
My sister is an attorney. Guess who seriously thought it was "entrapment" for an officer to run radar at night, without lights? Another local lawyer, who is a know-it-all on another forum I frequent, and practices civil law, attempted to debate with me concerning criminal law. Not only had he never represented a criminal defendant, he wasn't even aware of the name or existence of the statewide criminal justice information system (courtnet). Be careful what you wish for when talking to an attorney. I'd sooner have a couple of cops in here represent me in court than a number of lawyers I know.Everyone has their weaknesses, and simply because one has passed the bar, doesn't make one an expert on criminal law.


it might not be entrapment, but he should have his headlights on at night for safety.











:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

blackjack
06-28-2012, 10:17
Like any training of any kind (i.e. not just firearms), it all goes to the experience, knowledge, and demeanor of the instructor. These factors all combine to determine whether the instructor will be able to connect with the student for effective training. BTW, "effective training" means that the student will make conditioned behavioral changes that can be sustained to achieve the desired results consistently. Obviously, some of the responsibility for "effective training" must fall on the student and not just the instructor.

I have retained firearms instructors to teach classes for those seeking to become armed security guards under state law. Of the four I used over a period of about 6 years, there is only one that I would consider using for my own personal instruction. All of them were LEO at some level and had done extensive LEO firearms instruction with one being on the local PD competitive shooting team. However, for three of them, the LEO mindset/demeanor did not translate well to those being trained as armed security guards. The one that connects best with the students is a retired FBI agent and continues as a program instructor, to the best of my knowledge (I left there 5 years ago). One of the others was eventually elected as a county sheriff.