Question regarding Judas. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Tilley
06-28-2012, 02:06
Did Judas kill himself or was he murdered?


If Judas' demise was investigated today, would it have been a suicide or homicide?


And, did judas commit the unforgivable sin?

The Wizard
06-28-2012, 06:42
One of the Gospels says he went out a hung himself.

Dexters
06-28-2012, 07:59
Did Judas kill himself or was he murdered?


If Judas' demise was investigated today, would it have been a suicide or homicide?




Sounds like a case for CSI Jerusalem.

Where do you get the homicide aspect?

Guss
06-28-2012, 08:16
One of the Gospels says he went out a hung himself.
And yet another of the Gospels tells that he fell on some rocks. If the Bible can't get it straight, I don't think anyone today will figure it out.

The Wizard
06-28-2012, 09:54
Guss,
Remember, even today "eyewitness" testimony is not consider 100% accurate. The "fact" to come away with from the Gospel accounts is HE KILLED HIMSELF. How he did it is not important to the story. I am with Dexter where did the homicide angle come from?

Guss
06-28-2012, 10:06
Guss,
Remember, even today "eyewitness" testimony is not consider 100% accurate. The "fact" to come away with from the Gospel accounts is HE KILLED HIMSELF. How he did it is not important to the story. I am with Dexter where did the homicide angle come from?
Killed himself? When one of the Gospels says he fell on some rocks busting a gut? The fact that there are two different accountings in the Bible tells us we are not going to find the answers there.

WS6
06-28-2012, 10:07
And yet another of the Gospels tells that he fell on some rocks. If the Bible can't get it straight, I don't think anyone today will figure it out.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=65734

There are two possible ways to reconcile the verses:

Lukeís purpose in Acts may have been simply to report what Peter said at a point in time when the apostlesí information on Judasís death may well have been sketchy. After some of the Temple priests converted (cf. Acts 6:7), they may have given further details on Judasís death that were later incorporated into the Gospel accounts.

It is also possible that after Judas hanged himself the rope broke and he fell onto rocks that disemboweled him postmortem. Matthewís emphasis then would have been Judasís actions in taking his own life, while Peterís emphasis was on what happened to him after his suicide.

Vic Hays
06-28-2012, 10:07
And yet another of the Gospels tells that he fell on some rocks. If the Bible can't get it straight, I don't think anyone today will figure it out.

It is possible for both to be true.

He hung himself, the rope broke and he fell into the rocks below.

All of the information was not supplied.

Guss
06-28-2012, 10:41
It is possible for both to be true.

He hung himself, the rope broke and he fell into the rocks below.

All of the information was not supplied.
If we are going to speculate, perhaps he was trampled by unicorns.

Guss
06-28-2012, 11:05
The two stories are sufficiently disparate that at least one of them has to be poor reporting. One says Judas tossed his money back at those who had paid him. Another says he bought a field with the money and then died there.

WS6
06-28-2012, 11:17
The two stories are sufficiently disparate that at least one of them has to be poor reporting. One says Judas tossed his money back at those who had paid him. Another says he bought a field with the money and then died there.

Where does the Bible state that about the field?

EDIT: Acts 1:18.

Guss
06-28-2012, 11:24
Getting back to the murder angle, in the Gospel of Judas, he tells of a dream that the other apostles stoned him to death. Was this a premonition?

WS6
06-28-2012, 11:35
Getting back to the murder angle, in the Gospel of Judas, he tells of a dream that the other apostles stoned him to death. Was this a premonition?

Why should anyone give credence as to what this 'gospel' states regarding Jesus or the apostles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

Guss
06-28-2012, 12:24
Why should anyone give credence as to what this 'gospel' states regarding Jesus or the apostles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas
Personally, I don't see why any of the Gospels are given much credence. But we can only work with what we've got when we want to talk about Judas Iscariot. The Catholic Church may not like it's existence, but like it or not, the book is there.

Vic Hays
06-28-2012, 12:33
The two stories are sufficiently disparate that at least one of them has to be poor reporting. One says Judas tossed his money back at those who had paid him. Another says he bought a field with the money and then died there.

Again, both stories do not rule the other out.

Judas tossed the money back at those who paid him. They didn't want it back because it was blood money. They purchased a field for burying the indigent with it.

So Judas in a sense bought the field.

Matthew 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potterís field, to bury strangers in.

Acts 1:16 íMen, brethren, it behoved this Writing that it be fulfilled that beforehand the Holy Spirit spake through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who became guide to those who took Jesus,
1:17 because he was numbered among us, and did receive the share in this ministration,
1:18 this one, indeed, then, purchased a field out of the reward of unrighteousness, and falling headlong, burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed forth,
1:19 and it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem, insomuch that that place is called, in their proper dialect, Aceldama, that is, field of blood,
1:20 for it hath been written in the book of Psalms: Let his lodging-place become desolate, and let no one be dwelling in it, and his oversight let another take.

You just have to get the whole story to make sense of it.

WS6
06-28-2012, 12:41
Why should anyone give credence as to what this 'gospel' states regarding Jesus or the apostles?

Personally, I don't see why any of the Gospels are given much credence.

This point does not address my question.

But we can only work with what we've got when we want to talk about Judas Iscariot.

What is there about the text that can credibly link it to events of the early to mid-part of the first century A.D.?

The Catholic Church may not like it's existence, but like it or not, the book is there.

I doubt that the Church really cares about its existence.

G23Gen4TX
06-28-2012, 15:26
IMO, Judas is a fictional character in the Jesus story and is name that so the church can blame the Jews for the death of Christ. (Judas = Jew in Hebrew).

WS6
06-28-2012, 16:38
IMO, Judas is a fictional character in the Jesus story and is name that so the church can blame the Jews for the death of Christ. (Judas = Jew in Hebrew).

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus' death

597. The historical complexity of Jesus' trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles' calls to conversion after Pentecost. Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept "the ignorance" of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders. Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd's cry: "His blood be on us and on our children!", a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence. As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

. . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.

All sinners were the authors of Christ's Passion

598. In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured. Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself, the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone:

We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt. And it can be seen that our crime in this case is greater in us than in the Jews. As for them, according to the witness of the Apostle, "None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." We, however, profess to know him. And when we deny him by our deeds, we in some way seem to lay violent hands on him.

Nor did demons crucify him; it is you who have crucified him and crucify him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.

G23Gen4TX
06-28-2012, 17:12
The Catholic church is not the one who named him Judas. It was done before that.

Tilley
06-28-2012, 17:13
There is an old joke...

Q: How many LAPD police officers does it take to push a handcuffed suspect down a flight of stairs?

A: None. The a-hole tripped and fell.

As a police officer I find it a bit hard to believe that a guy of such lousy character as Judas would feel bad enough to hang himself. Who knows, maybe Sandusky will off himself for what he did...or Charlie Manson...or Teddy Kennedy. I think there were a lot of people who had motive to be mad at Judas that night for what he did.

Second, the only time I ever saw a person's guts pop out is when the body is decomposing. Judas had just hung himself...so how did his belly open up if he did not have any help?

Then there is the conflicting story of how it happened:

1. He hung himself.

2. He tripped and fell.

Matthew was an eyewitness to these events and he said hanging. Luke had second hand knowledge and said he tripped. Granted, Judas was a dirtbag and deserved to die, but their stories here are really very weak.

The other question I have is if Judas committed the "Unpardonable Sin." Did Judas have free will or was he predestined to become the betrayer?

Schabesbert
06-28-2012, 17:29
IMO, Judas is a fictional character in the Jesus story and is name that so the church can blame the Jews for the death of Christ. (Judas = Jew in Hebrew).

Epistemological fallacy implications aside, he was named after one of the 12 sons of Abraham.

Judas, or Jude, was a very common name in Jesus' day.

So much so that TWO of the 12 Apostles had this name.

Are you claiming that St. Jude was also given that name to disparage him?

Schabesbert
06-28-2012, 17:30
The Catholic church is not the one who named him Judas. It was done before that.
True. His parents no doubt gave him that name, and that probably predates the Catholic Church by a couple of decades.

Colubrid
06-28-2012, 17:53
Did Jesus walk up the hill to the crowd or did He come down the hill?

That's the cool thing about different eyewitness accounts. With further investigation it actually supports what happened. Otherwsie if everyone had the same exact perspective it probably is a bunch of people getting together to make up a story.

I am sure any real LEO investigators know what I am talking about.

G23Gen4TX
06-28-2012, 18:55
Epistemological fallacy implications aside, he was named after one of the 12 sons of Abraham.

Judas, or Jude, was a very common name in Jesus' day.

So much so that TWO of the 12 Apostles had this name.

Are you claiming that St. Jude was also given that name to disparage him?

Somebody must have hated Jude. lol

I know it was a common name. It is still popular in Israel today. But I think he was named that for the sake of the story.

Guss
06-28-2012, 21:00
Continuing with the murder theme, murderers need a motive and the Gospel of Judas can provide us with that motive. Jesus revealed deeper insights of his message to Judas than to the rest of the disciples and apparently held him in high esteem. After the loss of Jesus, the disciples would have had trouble establishing leadership of what was left of the church, and jealousies may have arisen regarding Judas' status. So they may well have found it expedient to murder and slander him.

Tilley
06-28-2012, 21:21
Continuing with the murder theme, murderers need a motive and the Gospel of Judas can provide us with that motive. Jesus revealed deeper insights of his message to Judas than to the rest of the disciples and apparently held him in high esteem. After the loss of Jesus, the disciples would have had trouble establishing leadership of what was left of the church, and jealousies may have arisen regarding Judas' status. So they may well have found it expedient to murder and slander him.

Although I have the Gospel of Judas, I have not found the time to read it.

Are you a Christian, and if so, have you found this gospel credible?

Guss
06-28-2012, 21:34
...

Are you a Christian, and if so, have you found this gospel credible?
I haven't been a Christian for maybe 50 years now. To me, it's all just fairy tales for adults. Amusing literature, but not to be taken seriously.

Tilley
06-29-2012, 01:53
I haven't been a Christian for maybe 50 years now. To me, it's all just fairy tales for adults. Amusing literature, but not to be taken seriously.

Then I won't waste my time with Judas as Jesus' closest confidant. Personally I think Judas being a good guy is a fairy tale too.

Animal Mother
06-29-2012, 02:19
Then I won't waste my time with Judas as Jesus' closest confidant. Personally I think Judas being a good guy is a fairy tale too.Even in the canonical gospels, wasn't Judas just playing the role Jesus set out for him?

Guss
06-29-2012, 09:14
Even in the canonical gospels, wasn't Judas just playing the role Jesus set out for him?
Yes. It was a necessary role.
In fact the word "betray" that we see in the Bible was not a good translation. It should have been "deliver".

Guss
06-29-2012, 09:16
Then I won't waste my time with Judas as Jesus' closest confidant. Personally I think Judas being a good guy is a fairy tale too.
The original post was on the topic of murder. When you investigate, you don't just listen to one side of the story. If the other disciples decided to kill Judas in a power-grab, you are just listening to their cover-up.

Schabesbert
06-29-2012, 11:32
Yes. It was a necessary role.
In fact the word "betray" that we see in the Bible was not a good translation. It should have been "deliver".
Not in the sense that you seem to think.
"Deliver," as in the sense of "deliver up," is within the scope of possible meanings for the greek word paradidomi.

That would make it nearly synonymous with "betray" but not just plain "deliver."

Here are some contemporaneous useages of the same word:
Mt 5:25 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over (paradidomi) to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;

Mt 10:19 When they deliver you up (paradidomi) do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour;

Mt 18:34 And in anger his lord delivered (paradidomi) him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt.

Schabesbert
06-29-2012, 11:33
The original post was on the topic of murder. When you investigate, you don't just listen to one side of the story. If the other disciples decided to kill Judas in a power-grab, you are just listening to their cover-up.
What "power"?

Guss
06-30-2012, 19:08
What "power"?
Control of what was left of the church.

Guss
06-30-2012, 19:29
Even in the canonical gospels, wasn't Judas just playing the role Jesus set out for him?
Yes, and Jesus seems to have had a good future in mind for ALL of the disciples as he tells them they will sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes.

Guss
06-30-2012, 19:30
...
"Deliver," as in the sense of "deliver up," is within the scope of possible meanings for the greek word paradidomi.

That would make it nearly synonymous with "betray" but not just plain "deliver."
...
Don't just cherry pick.
They got the translation right here:
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father

Vic Hays
06-30-2012, 19:36
Control of what was left of the church.

There is no Church without Jesus.

They all ran.

Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, said the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn my hand on the little ones.

Mark 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.
14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Schabesbert
07-02-2012, 07:12
Don't just cherry pick.
They got the translation right here:
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father
Right. Cherry picking.
The vast preponderance of useage, and essentially all the usage that would fit in context, means deliver up.

Schabesbert
07-02-2012, 07:20
Control of what was left of the church.
Ahhh ... the power to be persecuted, beaten, and crucified.

Roering
07-02-2012, 11:07
Perhaps he hung himself, the branch had broken and that is when he fell upon the rocks below.

Vic Hays
07-02-2012, 17:20
Perhaps he hung himself, the branch had broken and that is when he fell upon the rocks below.

Maybe he hung there till he rotted and that is why his guts broke open.

Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

Kind of like when they say "he bought the farm".