Did old DA revolver grips work well? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ithaca_deerslayer
06-28-2012, 09:37
Historically, why did the revolver grips change from this
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/zoom_lg/150786_01_lg.jpg
and this
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/150500_01_md.jpg


to this
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/zoom_lg/150717_01_lg.jpg

and this
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/163414_01_md.jpg

The gun frame obviously has always been made to allow the older grip where the middle finger is up high behind the trigger guard. That basic frame design hasn't seemed to change much in regard to that over the years.

Was there ever a reason to allow the middle finger up so high? Or was it just bad original design? Seems like nobody prefers that functionally, unless they are just trying to get a retro looking gun.

Anyone know the history and reason for that ergonomic change in DA revolver grips?

fnfalman
06-28-2012, 09:48
The smallish grips point extremely well, but not amenable for fast, repeated firing. The gun tends to climb up inside your palm. Later on, the manufacturers started to make the grips a bit bitter and more squarish so that it sits more solidly in your hand.

When target shooting became more popular and revolvers became less of a front line weapon, came the design of heavy barrel, full underlug and target grip.

Fingergrooves came into its own proliferation around 1990s.

Three-Five-Seven
06-28-2012, 09:51
The "old" (as you call them) Magna grips are the best in my world.

I've always switched any "Target" gripped gun over the Magna grips first thing. They just fit my hand so much better.

I prefer the Magna grips even on N frames -- even with full-goose Bozo loads.

YMMV

ronin.45
06-28-2012, 09:51
Grips have gradually changed to fit the human hand better. That Ahrends grip is much more comfortable than the others shown.

Berto
06-28-2012, 09:56
I think it was because the older style with space behind the trigger guard lent itself to hip or point shooting where the gun was held at waist level and triggered in a FBI crouch.
As aimed fire and two handed contemporary methods brought the gun to eye level, they 'squared' up the grip for a more straight back trigger pull.

..my guess, at least.

glock_19guy1983
06-28-2012, 10:32
I hate magnas. It is the most un natural feeling grip in the world.

fnfalman
06-28-2012, 10:35
Grips have gradually changed to fit the human hand better. That Ahrends grip is much more comfortable than the others shown.

I beg to differ. I can't stand the Aherends grips, especially with the finger grooves.

Those old grips and the magna grips work much better for me.

fnfalman
06-28-2012, 10:37
I think it was because the older style with space behind the trigger guard lent itself to hip or point shooting where the gun was held at waist level and triggered in a FBI crouch.
As aimed fire and two handed contemporary methods brought the gun to eye level, they 'squared' up the grip for a more straight back trigger pull.

..my guess, at least.

That too. Combat shooting back in the days was more about one-handed stance and those smallish grips work great for that type of grip. Though I don't have an issue with shooting two-handed modern style on those grips either.

The large grips were and are inspired from target grips.

CajunBass
06-28-2012, 11:15
People got bigger. Their hands got bigger. Go back further in time than the examples you've shown and you'll find grips were even smaller.

I suspect another factor was simply that the factories knew the first thing a shooter was going to do was replace the grips with grips HE liked. So why bother tying to make a better one? Stick a set of Magna's which were cheap, on it and ship it. Even Smith & Wesson's "target grips" were more for looks than for practical.

When I first started buying revolvers, every gun shop I went into had a "box O' grips" somewhere. They were usually marked for a couple of bucks, or even "free to a good home." A guy would buy a gun and a set of grips at the same time. The standard grips came off and went into the box, and the aftermarket ones went on usually before the gun left the store. That's why original S&W Magna grips are so expensive today. (Ruger Speed/Security-Six grips were even worse.)

Today, everying is "combat" oriented. Bigger, fatter grips, with finger groves are the rage. It's cheaper to buy a few sets of wooden or rubber grips from an aftermarket supplier, than it is to make them inhouse.

Nestor
06-28-2012, 12:19
...and don't forget about the grip adaptors that were quite popular in the 70's and 80's...just before the target grips became the new standard.
For serious applications I prefer the rubber over any wood.

ithaca_deerslayer
06-28-2012, 12:38
...and don't forget about the grip adaptors that were quite popular in the 70's and 80's...just before the target grips became the new standard.
For serious applications I prefer the rubber over any wood.

Yes, I think the grip adapters must have been a fix for the old DA grips.

Odd thing is, the Colt SA semed well designed from the start. Especially how the gun rolls upward for cocking.

Golddog
06-28-2012, 12:46
Because the older slim grips magnified recoil. The newer types are much easier on the fingers if you're shooting .357 Mag rounds. I dumped the old style grips on all my revolvers in favor of the ones that fill in behind the trigger guard.

cowboywannabe
06-28-2012, 13:16
the grips which allow the middle finger to ride high against the back of the trigger guard have shown us that they are poorly designed by the market saturation of grips which fill this void.

for purists, sentiment, or the love of vintage things these are the only reason these grips are still around. they are not as practical as current designs.

Bren
06-28-2012, 13:20
Because there is an industry built around selling cool looking things to people who own guns that they mostly look at and occasionally use to put holes in paper. Every revolver I own has a set of S&W wood grips like in your first 2 pictures, even where it is a model that doesn't come with those grips. The only thing I did to my 637 when I got it was replace the rubber grips with a set of old wood ones, probably from the 60's.

This thread is, once again, full of the reasons I criticize GT as a forum for newbs.

cowboywannabe
06-28-2012, 13:30
people buy the grips which fit their hands the best or suit their shooting needs the best.

thats why the old style wood grips have faded to vintage status like top break revolvers; something better has come along.

countrygun
06-28-2012, 13:43
I prefer the "old" style with the addition of a Tyler "T-Grip" on my "K" frames. The style has gotten a bit hard to find for the "N" frames and I generally replace them with a certain type of older, basic "Pachs"

http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu208/countrygun/IM002611.jpg


http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu208/countrygun/IM002552.jpg


I will be ordering some of the "skelton" style grips for my "N" frames in the near future. Funny, I like the "T"s but generally, with some exceptions,

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/100_0057-1.jpg



dislike finger grooves on wood or rubber stocks. I have to add that the Colt Python has the worst factory grips of any revolver I've ever held.

I also do not find it a particular problem at all to have "Newb's" asking questions at all. as long as they show a bit of respect for the answers i figure it's the least I can do to keep the knowledge alive.

ithaca_deerslayer
06-28-2012, 13:46
Because there is an industry built around selling cool looking things to people who own guns that they mostly look at and occasionally use to put holes in paper. Every revolver I own has a set of S&W wood grips like in your first 2 pictures, even where it is a model that doesn't come with those grips. The only thing I did to my 637 when I got it was replace the rubber grips with a set of old wood ones, probably from the 60's.

This thread is, once again, full of the reasons I criticize GT as a forum for newbs.

Your points about pefering the older grip style is interesting, and there is at least one other poster thus far in this thread who also seems to prefer them. I guess that answers the question about the frame, to allow those old style grips that some people still prefer :)

As to GT being a forum for newbs, I always wonder if there is some top secret forum, like the Stonecutters, that you go to and share exchanges with other experts.

I haven't been invited to that secret forum yet, as my gun knowledge, philosophy knowledge, and general knowledge is still far below what it takes to get into that forum. Instead I forever roam GT along with the other newbs. But we are trying to learn :)

NeverMore1701
06-28-2012, 13:47
Because there is an industry built around selling cool looking things to people who own guns that they mostly look at and occasionally use to put holes in paper. Every revolver I own has a set of S&W wood grips like in your first 2 pictures, even where it is a model that doesn't come with those grips. The only thing I did to my 637 when I got it was replace the rubber grips with a set of old wood ones, probably from the 60's.

This thread is, once again, full of the reasons I criticize GT as a forum for newbs.

Then, yet again, why don't you go find a forum populated by more experienced folks such as yourself?

427
06-28-2012, 13:49
I have a S&W model 40 and with the original grips, it was a little awkward for me. I found an old Tyler-T and I'm much happier. I also didn't want to chop up grips for the grip safety.

cowboywannabe
06-28-2012, 13:53
Then, yet again, why don't you go find a forum populated by more experienced folks such as yourself?

you cant feel superior amongst those of the same intellect. you must go where you stand above the field in order to get noticed, thats why i come here too, right Bren?:rofl:

G36's Rule
06-28-2012, 14:13
Because there is an industry built around selling cool looking things to people who own guns that they mostly look at and occasionally use to put holes in paper. Every revolver I own has a set of S&W wood grips like in your first 2 pictures, even where it is a model that doesn't come with those grips. The only thing I did to my 637 when I got it was replace the rubber grips with a set of old wood ones, probably from the 60's.

This thread is, once again, full of the reasons I criticize GT as a forum for newbs.

Herp...

















Derp...

Get over yourself there Wyatt Earp.

:whatever:

fnfalman
06-28-2012, 14:28
It's very simple: some grips are gimmicks and some grips aren't.

Not everybody's hands shaped the same way. Not everybody's wrists bend the same way.

Equip your guns with grips that fit you the best. For me, the older wheelgun grips work better than the modern thick ones.

cowboywannabe
06-28-2012, 14:48
Did old DA revolver grips work well?

they did until somebody gave us choices....

Berto
06-28-2012, 14:50
They worked well for the type of use they saw.

kahrcarrier
06-28-2012, 14:53
I prefer the older, slim profile stocks. By a wide margin..........

But, it does seem to be a rather silly thing to be arguing over.

cowboywannabe
06-28-2012, 14:54
that Jerry guy from louisianna who has the fasted d/a revolver shooting and reloading uses what? who is second and third fastest with d/a revolver shooting and reloading? what do they use? and why?

i know why i prefer modern designed grips, but i wonder why the best shooters of d/a revolvers prefer modern designs instead of old designs.

Berto
06-28-2012, 14:58
Good point; Jerry uses his own custom grips, rounded with no fingergrooves, McGivern used factory stocks from both Colt and S&W, sliver and magna styles.

fnfalman
06-28-2012, 14:59
that Jerry guy from louisianna who has the fasted d/a revolver shooting and reloading uses what? who is second and third fastest with d/a revolver shooting and reloading? what do they use? and why?

i know why i prefer modern designed grips, but i wonder why the best shooters of d/a revolvers prefer modern designs instead of old designs.

That jerry whatever guy, his "modern design" grip...does it have finger grooves? Does it have oversized panels?

And if his "modern design" grips work so great then how come I don't see all of the revolvers come equipped with these magical stocks?

countrygun
06-28-2012, 15:36
That jerry whatever guy, his "modern design" grip...does it have finger grooves? Does it have oversized panels?

And if his "modern design" grips work so great then how come I don't see all of the revolvers come equipped with these magical stocks?

They are a rather "extreme" style to the eye, and to my hand. they are non-grooved and designed to fit his hand and style. Remember something very important about folks like Jerry Miculek, very often they don't do things in the way the rest of us do and we cannot gain much by attempting to emulate them unless we spend years dedicated to doing so. You cannot just buy "gear" like theirs and expect any improvement in your shooting.

For example, and think about this carefully, Jerry M uses the TIP of his trigger finger to operate a DA revolver. How many of us do that? His grips are shaped to facilitate this for his hand. Maybe if you practice long enough, and can learn to shoot well enough, like that, his grips MIGHT work for you with some modification for your hand.


There is no "Magic" involved. You cannot buy the "magic wand"

Nestor
06-28-2012, 15:41
Jim Cirillo who was probably just a bit more experienced than some of us, very professional members here, modified his original model 10 stocks as well. He used a homemade grip adapter with the friction tape wrapped all over it...because that was exactly what worked for him.
:wavey:

fnfalman
06-28-2012, 15:47
They are a rather "extreme" style to the eye, and to my hand. they are non-grooved and designed to fit his hand and style. Remember something very important about folks like Jerry Miculek, very often they don't do things in the way the rest of us do and we cannot gain much by attempting to emulate them unless we spend years dedicated to doing so. You cannot just buy "gear" like theirs and expect any improvement in your shooting.

For example, and think about this carefully, Jerry M uses the TIP of his trigger finger to operate a DA revolver. How many of us do that? His grips are shaped to facilitate this for his hand. Maybe if you practice long enough, and can learn to shoot well enough, like that, his grips MIGHT work for you with some modification for your hand.


There is no "Magic" involved. You cannot buy the "magic wand"

Exactly my point. Everybody's grips and wrists are different. For someone to claim that "modern" grips fit better than "old" grips, that's just silly.

countrygun
06-28-2012, 15:54
Exactly my point. Everybody's grips and wrists are different. For someone to claim that "modern" grips fit better than "old" grips, that's just silly.


Yup. It does good to reming people of this from time to time.

If you really want to play with them ask about why so blinking many autoloaders are equipped with hooked and grooved triggerguards, when few shoot that way? We are all suffering the abominations because a few competition shooter in the 80s used that technique for a while.

deputy tom
06-28-2012, 16:29
I like S&W Magna grips with Tyler T-grip adapters on my revolvers. My duty gun wore Pachmayer rubber finger groove grips.YMMV.tom.:cool:

cowboywannabe
06-28-2012, 16:46
if the bone stock grips were so good to the best or even the average shooter there wouldnt be an industry which makes grips different than the stock ones.

im not saying the old style stock grips suck, just that they appearantly arent well recieved as they were before other choices were widely available.
they are replaced often enough for companies to make a mint selling other than old style grips.

even deputy tom whom liked the old grips prefered to have them helped with a Tyler-T.

FireForged
06-28-2012, 16:57
I remember back in the day, we called those larger revolver grips, target grips. I always had the smallish grips until somewhere in the 90's when I broke down and bought a couple pachmyr combat ( finger grooves ).

G21FAN
06-28-2012, 17:12
These fit my hand better than any other grip for it.
http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo96/medic15al/003.jpg

cowboywannabe
06-28-2012, 17:16
These fit my hand better than any other grip for it.
http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo96/medic15al/003.jpg

you mean the after market tyler-t or the stock grips supplemented with the tyler-t?

countrygun
06-28-2012, 17:24
you mean the after market tyler-t or the stock grips supplemented with the tyler-t?


What?

cowboywannabe
06-28-2012, 17:29
What?

what what?

countrygun
06-28-2012, 17:35
you mean the after market tyler-t or the stock grips supplemented with the tyler-t?


That makes no sense at all.

The Tyler "T-Grip" is simply the part that fills in the sinus between the triggerguard and the grip frame. It is held in place by a copper strip that slips under and is secured by the factory grips.

It sounds like we are talking about car tires and you are asking "Do you like the Goodyears without a wheel or with the factory wheel?"

cowboywannabe
06-28-2012, 17:51
That makes no sense at all.

The Tyler "T-Grip" is simply the part that fills in the sinus between the triggerguard and the grip frame. It is held in place by a copper strip that slips under and is secured by the factory grips.

It sounds like we are talking about car tires and you are asking "Do you like the Goodyears without a wheel or with the factory wheel?"

no, he said: "These fit my hand better than any other grip for it."

i asked if he meant the tyler t or the tyler t with the stock grip, as its evident by his picture the stock grip wasnt enough.

CrackerKen
06-28-2012, 20:30
My favorite type of grips for both K-Frame and J-Frame S&W revolvers is the old fashioned grip, with a T-Grip adapter. I used them on both when I was in law enforcement, and up to when I retired. This combination gave me a good, comfortable hand full, and I shot good with them. The old grips with the T-grip adapter helped a bit with concealability, and I didn't have my sport coat (when I was a detective) hanging up on rubber Pachmayer grips.

I'm thinking about converting the grips on my 642 to the old style wooden grip, if I can manage to get a T-Grip adapter. Last time I checked, they weren't easy to get.

countrygun
06-28-2012, 20:36
My favorite type of grips for both K-Frame and J-Frame S&W revolvers is the old fashioned grip, with a T-Grip adapter. I used them on both when I was in law enforcement, and up to when I retired. This combination gave me a good, comfortable hand full, and I shot good with them. The old grips with the T-grip adapter helped a bit with concealability, and I didn't have my sport coat (when I was a detective) hanging up on rubber Pachmayer grips.

I'm thinking about converting the grips on my 642 to the old style wooden grip, if I can manage to get a T-Grip adapter. Last time I checked, they weren't easy to get.


I ordered several a few years ago and talked to the wife of the owner of Tylers. They were running the old company basically on a shoestring and I later heard they got in a bit of trouble over not being able to fill orders as they cashed checks. somebody recently was makings a cast plastic "take off" from the Tyler design. At one time another company was competing with Tyler (back in the late 60's &70s) using a plastic model as well. I have one around in the original box somewhere.

CrackerKen
06-28-2012, 20:48
I just checked the T-Grip web site. They have a statement on the web page about trying to do right this year, etc. They list the stock availability of various models and such. You have to send in an order form with check or money order.

Here's the web page for Tyler: http://www.t-grips.com/

I'd like to get one of the brushed aluminum t-grips.

countrygun
06-28-2012, 20:55
I just checked the T-Grip web site. They have a statement on the web page about trying to do right this year, etc. They list the stock availability of various models and such. You have to send in an order form with check or money order.

Here's the web page for Tyler: http://www.t-grips.com/

I'd like to get one of the brushed aluminum t-grips.

Thanks for lettng us know. It's good to hear.

Now if I order some more, well i will have to get some more revolvers to put them on.

Hmmm, that might work....

"Honey, have you seen my checkboook?.......":cool:

427
06-28-2012, 21:21
Model 40 w/a Tyler-T.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt354/MattP427/000_1949.jpg

427
06-28-2012, 21:27
M1937 Brazilian w/Tyler-T.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt354/MattP427/000_1932.jpg

GioaJack
06-28-2012, 21:27
One of the problems with OEM, S&W grips, (other than the fact that 2 sizes were supposed to fit everyone), was, (is) that the design allows the gun to roll back in the hand under recoil necessitating a shift in the shooter's grip with each shot. Obviously this doesn't present a huge problem if one is engaged in a bullseye competition but can be a bit disconcerting in a more serious environment. Through in sweaty, slippery hands from hot, humid weather or moisture from rain and it exasperates the problem.

A relatively simple design change and the problems disappear resulting in a near perfect grip every time the gun is drawn either slowly and deliberately or quickly and without conscious thought when the situation requires.

Bill Jordan came up with a very functional design in the '60's, (IIRC), and I started using them in the early '70's.

As the picture below shows, there is significantly more grip material directly behind the trigger guard which helps diminish any 'barrel heavy' feeling. Unlike the original S&W grips, and many others that slope downward from just beneath the hammer to just below the web of thumb and forefinger the Jordan grip is built up to fully fill the web. Rather than the gun rolling upward under recoil and necessitating a grip reset the gun tends to recoil in a more rearward motion while the shooter's grip never changes. The grips were also oversized in thickness which filled the whole hand and afforded a firm, steady none changing grip during follow-up shots. (It was a very easy matter to sand down the thickness to personal taste then rejuvenate the finish of the redwood with steel wool.)

Although they are admittedly the ugliest grips ever created they were, without question the most functional and efficient grips I have ever carried, so much so I put them on every Smith I carried as a duty belt gun.

My understanding is that they still market them but they're now made out of plastic rather than rosewood.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/GioaJack/hp_scanDS_911213154831-1.jpg


Jack

ithaca_deerslayer
06-28-2012, 21:34
Jack, what heck is going on in that pic?

fnfalman
06-29-2012, 09:10
if the bone stock grips were so good to the best or even the average shooter there wouldnt be an industry which makes grips different than the stock ones.

To paraphrase you, if modern grips are so great then there wouldn't be an industry which makes grips different than the stock ones. I'm willing to bet that there are more aftermarket grips available now than ever. Finger grooves, no finger grooves, square butt, round butt, palm swell, no palm swell, fat panel with thumb rest, skinny panel, sculpted butt.

After over a 100-years of DA wheelgun usage, nobody has yet to agree to what makes a good grip other than the fact that it should fit the shooter's hand well and applicable for the type of shooting the shooter intends to do with the gun.

im not saying the old style stock grips suck, just that they appearantly arent well recieved as they were before other choices were widely available.
they are replaced often enough for companies to make a mint selling other than old style grips.

They're not any different than modern style stock. They're good for somebody and suck for others, hence aftermarket modifications and alternatives.

even deputy tom whom liked the old grips prefered to have them helped with a Tyler-T.

Not me, I can't stand the infernal thing, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who doesn't like the Tyler T.

fnfalman
06-29-2012, 09:11
My understanding is that they still market them but they're now made out of plastic rather than rosewood.

Jack

Herrett still makes Jordan grips out of wood.

GioaJack
06-29-2012, 09:16
Old crime scene photo. Private club, (similar to a Playboy club), customer got wasted, cut off and kicked out. Came back in with a gun, shot at manager then took him and one of the cooks hostage.

Got the 300 people out of there and pretty much killed a half hour or so trying to work into position in the darkened room.

Both of us got bored so we agreed to spend a little time shooting at each other. It was the end of a Friday night swing shift and I had a young lady waiting for me to get off so we could hit the after hours clubs. That pretty much gave me incentive to win... no one gets between me and the ladies.

Sometimes you don't have to wait until after shift to have a wee small drink... especially when there's two fully stocked bars in the same room and your sergeant hands you a cup and says ,'here, drink this'.
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/GioaJack/hp_scanDS_911213211130.jpg

The crime lab guys needed a photo reconstruction so we walked through it while the bad guy was still lying on the floor.

The job was a lot easier back then.


Jack

carbuncle
06-29-2012, 09:24
Then, yet again, why don't you go find a forum populated by more experienced folks such as yourself?

Funny, I thought the same thing as I read that post. Some people just need to complain and berate to feel good, I guess.

smokeross
06-29-2012, 11:16
Years ago, men weren't such weenies and could grip a tennis ball hard enough to pop it. Not so these days with all the limp wristing going on. That's why the changes were needed. That said, I like some of the newer designs, but I can still squeeze a set of bathroom scales in my hands and bottom them out. Try it.

Berto
06-29-2012, 11:20
Old crime scene photo. Private club, (similar to a Playboy club), customer got wasted, cut off and kicked out. Came back in with a gun, shot at manager then took him and one of the cooks hostage.

Got the 300 people out of there and pretty much killed a half hour or so trying to work into position in the darkened room.

Both of us got bored so we agreed to spend a little time shooting at each other. It was the end of a Friday night swing shift and I had a young lady waiting for me to get off so we could hit the after hours clubs. That pretty much gave me incentive to win... no one gets between me and the ladies.

Sometimes you don't have to wait until after shift to have a wee small drink... especially when there's two fully stocked bars in the same room and your sergeant hands you a cup and says ,'here, drink this'.
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/GioaJack/hp_scanDS_911213211130.jpg

The crime lab guys needed a photo reconstruction so we walked through it while the bad guy was still lying on the floor.

The job was a lot easier back then.


Jack

Good
Old
Days




:supergrin:

fnfalman
06-29-2012, 12:21
but I can still squeeze a set of bathroom scales in my hands and bottom them out. Try it.
That's kinky!!! I can dig it.