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packeagle
06-28-2012, 23:27
I was laying down to bed when I heard rustling noise out back near my back door. I grab my G22 and head that way with my flashlight to see whats going on. Not sure if its an intruder or an animal on/under the back deck. As I am about to round the corner to the back stairs i hear some one walking up them. They yell that its the police. I yell back that I'm the homeowner and I have a gun. They tell the me to put it down. I comply as i now see them in police gear. They clear my firearm and do a sweep of the home. They say the neighbor called because I used my flashlight to go to the bathroom instead of of turning on the house lights. (I did and can understand the concern) The officers take my info and are on their way. I went to the neighbors house and thanked him for looking out for me.

I wont be using my flashlight to navigate my house anymore. Other than that what else could/should I have done?

Looking back I could have identified myself sooner. I can only imagine the consequences if the police would have rounded the corner before our verbal exchange. We would have been muzzle to muzzle in the hallway.

Mister_Beefy
06-29-2012, 00:16
well I'm a cop hating (according to the chosen few here) freedom lover type but I wouldn't have let them sweep your house.

I would have made them wait outside and fetched my ID to verify the address, then thanked them for their help.

the "it's easier", "just cooperate" and "do me a favor" tacks are used a lot to get around people's rights.

packeagle
06-29-2012, 04:40
Honestly they didn't give me a choice.

firefighter4215
06-29-2012, 05:01
well I'm a cop hating (according to the chosen few here) freedom lover type but I wouldn't have let them sweep your house.

I would have made them wait outside and fetched my ID to verify the address, then thanked them for their help.

the "it's easier", "just cooperate" and "do me a favor" tacks are used a lot to get around people's rights.

I highly doubt they would've left your house and waited outside while you obtained ID.

SpringerTGO
06-29-2012, 08:55
well I'm a cop hating (according to the chosen few here) freedom lover type but I wouldn't have let them sweep your house.

I would have made them wait outside and fetched my ID to verify the address, then thanked them for their help.

the "it's easier", "just cooperate" and "do me a favor" tacks are used a lot to get around people's rights.

Great.
So the police show up to protect this guys house, in a timely manner, because of a legitimate call, and you think he should have given them a hard time?!
Between this and some of the OC threads I am beginning to wonder how any LEO's maintain their sanity.

ithaca_deerslayer
06-29-2012, 09:13
Isn't that how Watergate started?

JAS104
06-29-2012, 09:22
Let them in, let them sweep the house, even check the weapon. Its the Police for christ sake, responding to protect you.

racer88
06-29-2012, 09:26
Great.
So the police show up to protect this guys house, in a timely manner, because of a legitimate call, and you think he should have given them a hard time?!
Between this and some of the OC threads I am beginning to wonder how any LEO's maintain their sanity.

It's not giving them a "hard time." It's a 4th Amendment issue, not to mention what should be common sense.

Mr. Beefy makes a good, if not so obvious, point.

By CONSENTING to what amounts to a SEARCH of your home, you open yourself up to whatever the LEOs happen to find during their search. What if your friend dropped a half-smoked joint over in the corner? What if you had some Vicodins laying on the coffee table?

Never, EVER let the police search your house without a warrant.

The OP DID have a choice. But, apparently he didn't know that he had a choice. And, LE counts on that.

I'm not saying that in this case LE was on any sort of fishing expedition. They were "just doing their job" and had very noble intentions, I'm sure. BUT... if by "accident" they find something... now you're in trouble (and didn't have to be).

Always, ALWAYS protect your rights. It can be done civilly, respectfully, with a smile and a thank you. This has NOTHING to do with "cop-bashing" or "LEO-hating." I'm a big fan of LE, personally. But, I'm a HUGE fan of the Constitution.

FFR Spyder GT
06-29-2012, 09:30
I was laying down to bed when I heard rustling noise out back near my back door. I grab my G22 and head that way with my flashlight to see whats going on. Not sure if its an intruder or an animal on/under the back deck. As I am about to round the corner to the back stairs i hear some one walking up them. They yell that its the police. I yell back that I'm the homeowner and I have a gun. They tell the me to put it down. I comply as i now see them in police gear. They clear my firearm and do a sweep of the home. They say the neighbor called because I used my flashlight to go to the bathroom instead of of turning on the house lights. (I did and can understand the concern) The officers take my info and are on their way. I went to the neighbors house and thanked him for looking out for me.

I wont be using my flashlight to navigate my house anymore. Other than that what else could/should I have done?

Looking back I could have identified myself sooner. I can only imagine the consequences if the police would have rounded the corner before our verbal exchange. We would have been muzzle to muzzle in the hallway.

You need to get some LED light lights for your house. I have them in mine and that have the automatic light sensor soon they turn on when it starts getting dark.

Since they are LED they use very little energy and a whole house full will only cost a few dollars a year to operate.

Plus they are bright enough that a 1AM when you get up the room/hallway is very well lit. You will not need a flashlight anymore.

packeagle
06-29-2012, 09:40
I was still held at gun point by the 2nd officer when the sweep took place. I'm a CJ major and understand I have 4th amendment rights but I believe he had enough probable cause to conduct a protective sweep. As he was yet to identify me as the home owner for sure. The neighbor said that no one was home because my car was not in the drive as it normally is. Apparently, I didn't answer the first time they announced themselves. I had just come at them w/ a flashlight (just as caller described) and gun.

This was not started to be a 4th amendment thread. The search wasn't the issue to me. I want to better my way of handling these encounters. I just realize how close of a call it was. I didn't hear the police announce themselves and went armed to investigate a noise at the back of the house. If i would have been a bit slower down the hall I would have probably leveled a pistol on two LEOs as they rounded the corner. Not a good plan.

SpringerTGO
06-29-2012, 13:03
It's not giving them a "hard time." It's a 4th Amendment issue, not to mention what should be common sense.

Mr. Beefy makes a good, if not so obvious, point.

By CONSENTING to what amounts to a SEARCH of your home, you open yourself up to whatever the LEOs happen to find during their search. What if your friend dropped a half-smoked joint over in the corner? What if you had some Vicodins laying on the coffee table?

Never, EVER let the police search your house without a warrant.

The OP DID have a choice. But, apparently he didn't know that he had a choice. And, LE counts on that.

I'm not saying that in this case LE was on any sort of fishing expedition. They were "just doing their job" and had very noble intentions, I'm sure. BUT... if by "accident" they find something... now you're in trouble (and didn't have to be).

Always, ALWAYS protect your rights. It can be done civilly, respectfully, with a smile and a thank you. This has NOTHING to do with "cop-bashing" or "LEO-hating." I'm a big fan of LE, personally. But, I'm a HUGE fan of the Constitution.

I guess if you have 1/2 smoked joints (or other drugs) lying around you should not consent to a search.

Here's another possible scenario.....
Let's say the neighbor saw the light from a flashlight, and there really was a burglar in the house, that the owner was not aware of.

SFla27
06-29-2012, 14:18
And what about the statistics of criminals posing as police, gaining entry in your home, and performing a home invasion on you and your terrified family.

Should you call 911 beforehand to verify police are in the area / outside your home? If so, was there enough time to call 911 in the OP scenario?

Would it be unreasonable to inform the "people outside" that you're the homeowner, have a gun and are in the process of calling 911 to verify that the gentlemen dressed in police uniform are in-fact LE officers? Would the police comply, or would they deem that as an aggressive or stalling tactic from a potential perp and apprehend and arrest you for interfering with a police investigation while they perform their sweep?

220-9er
06-29-2012, 14:52
I have good outside lighting outside my house. I would have turned on those lights from inside my dark house without going outside so I could see who was there and they couldn't see me.
By going outside you lost the element of surprise, protective cover and any other home-field advantage you would have had. A real burglar could have shot you, the police could have shot "the guy with the gun", mistaking you for a bad guy.
Glad it turned out OK.

packeagle
06-29-2012, 15:06
I have good outside lighting outside my house. I would have turned on those lights from inside my dark house without going outside so I could see who was there and they couldn't see me.
By going outside you lost the element of surprise, protective cover and any other home-field advantage you would have had. A real burglar could have shot you, the police could have shot "the guy with the gun", mistaking you for a bad guy.
Glad it turned out OK.

Just to be clear, this took place inside my home. I didn't know it was the police until they were already inside the house. I only heard some noise (them making entry) thats why I went to investigate the situation.

SFla27
06-29-2012, 15:21
Just to be clear, this took place inside my home. I didn't know it was the police until they were already inside the house. I only heard some noise (them making entry) thats why I went to investigate the situation.

Oops, my apologies packeagle. I got caught up in the "outside" discussion topics and forgot this happened inside your house.

Well, the same question would apply.

Would law enforcement grant you the right to call 911 to verify their identity before traveling further into your home? It would make for a fairly tense situation, to say the least. But at least you would make sure they are LE and not a group of home invasion impersonators.

racer88
06-29-2012, 15:57
I guess if you have 1/2 smoked joints (or other drugs) lying around you should not consent to a search.

Here's another possible scenario.....
Let's say the neighbor saw the light from a flashlight, and there really was a burglar in the house, that the owner was not aware of.

Just an example. But, here's the thing... You may not KNOW that your kid's friend dropped a half-smoked joint. YOU are innocent. But, you just FORFEITED your rights.

What if the officer spots a photo in a frame of your own kid who's naked in the bathtub (and thinks it's child porn)? You're innocent. But, by consenting to the search, you've forfeited your rights.

I'm as law-abiding, clean-cut as they come. But, I will NEVER just invite LE into my house and voluntarily forfeit my rights. It's not about having something to hide. It's just not smart.

SpringerTGO
06-29-2012, 16:03
Just an example. But, here's the thing... You may not KNOW that your kid's friend dropped a half-smoked joint. YOU are innocent. But, you just FORFEITED your rights.

What if the officer spots a photo in a frame of your own kid who's naked in the bathtub (and thinks it's child porn)? You're innocent. But, by consenting to the search, you've forfeited your rights.

I'm as law-abiding, clean-cut as they come. But, I will NEVER just invite LE into my house and voluntarily forfeit my rights. It's not about having something to hide. It's just not smart.

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't have any issues allowing police into my residence under these circumstances. After they conduct their business, I'd offer them refreshments as well.

wjv
06-29-2012, 17:02
Curious as to how they gained entry into your home?

Do you not lock your doors? If not, you should!!!

beatcop
06-29-2012, 17:31
If you are going to pack heat outdoors, carry your ID/wallet.

"Sir, here's my ID...I live here...See address on license."

Done.

Otherwise, you are some guy lurking with a gun who just killed the owner of the house...who they will now look inside for.

racer88
06-29-2012, 19:27
Maybe I'm naive, but I don't have any issues allowing police into my residence under these circumstances. After they conduct their business, I'd offer them refreshments as well.

I used to be naive and think it was harmless (to consent to a search), as if anyone has "nothing to hide," it's ME. But, I've educated myself on this topic a bit. And, the problem is that you don't know that you DO have a LOT to lose, even though you are innocent... once you forfeit your rights. If you CONSENT, you GIVE UP whatever rights you had. And, if they happen to stumble across something you knew nothing about or had nothing to do with... you're SCREWED.

On the other hand, if you ASSERT your rights, and they go in anyway - violating your rights - you're NOT screwed.

In other words, you have nothing to GAIN by letting them in. But, you MAY have EVERYTHING to LOSE.

SJ 40
06-29-2012, 19:39
Curious as to how they gained entry into your home?

Do you not lock your doors? If not, you should!!!My question also either you left your door open or the police broke in to your house,because they didn't come down the chimney. Something doesn't add up in the story. SJ 40

RussP
06-29-2012, 20:15
Curious as to how they gained entry into your home?

Do you not lock your doors? If not, you should!!!HUGE question not addressed yet!

Reswob
06-29-2012, 20:22
Just to be clear, this took place inside my home. I didn't know it was the police until they were already inside the house. I only heard some noise (them making entry) thats why I went to investigate the situation.

Horse****. The police don't break into a home because of a suspected burglary. Something is amiss here.

RetailNinja
06-29-2012, 21:12
Horse****. The police don't break into a home because of a suspected burglary. Something is amiss here.

If someone calls in a possible burglary at an empty residence, and the door is unlocked, I'd wager the police will have a look-see around to make sure there are no intruders.

That said, OP needs to get a dog or something to alert when people are even at the door. I have a 25lb 4 legged alarm system that works wonders.

racer88
06-29-2012, 21:46
Oh.... I misread the OP. The officers were INSIDE the house???? I was under the (mistaken) impression the OP met the officers outside (and then let them in).

As Emily Latella (sp?) from the original SNL used to say.... "never mind." :)

RustyDaleShackleford
06-29-2012, 21:58
Yeah, I wouldn't have consented to a search of my property, or to them taking my firearm--especially in my own home, no matter what call they got.

packeagle
06-29-2012, 22:06
The back door was unlocked. They said that they announced that they were the police before making entry. I just heard "a noise". (Them making the entry through the unlocked door.) I feel he had probable cause for a sweep. Given the circumstances.

eccho
06-30-2012, 00:13
I think you did good identifying yourself, and declaring you were armed. You excercised your rights by securing your property, and the police were only there to help you.

I can understand the logic of being the "flex your rights" guy, but the cops probably wouldn't have let the guy with the gun go back inside. It's less a matter of consenting to searches as a matter of making sure everyone was safe in this case.

SouthernBoyVA
06-30-2012, 07:01
well I'm a cop hating (according to the chosen few here) freedom lover type but I wouldn't have let them sweep your house.

I would have made them wait outside and fetched my ID to verify the address, then thanked them for their help.

the "it's easier", "just cooperate" and "do me a favor" tacks are used a lot to get around people's rights.

Boy is this right!

SouthernBoyVA
06-30-2012, 07:07
I would never surrender my firearm in a case like this. I have had three incidences where the police responded/came to my house and in all three, I had a firearm in hand. When they entered my home (two times), they did not do a sweep and I did not hand them, nor did they ask, for my handgun. In one case, they were looking for a teenage girl who was a close friend of my youngest daughter and who was missing. The knocked on my door at just after 6:00am on Sunday and I carefully worked myself to the door with my gun in hand. When I saw it was an officer, I put the gun on a floor speaker close by then answered the door. He wanted to talk to my daughter. As he entered I pointed to the gun and he just nodded and said, "okay".

If the police come to my home on my request because of a 911 call I made, I do not expect them, nor will I surrender my firearm. I may place it in one of my "spots", or in a pocket, if I had time to put pants on, but it stays with me.

SouthernBoyVA
06-30-2012, 07:14
I was still held at gun point by the 2nd officer when the sweep took place. I'm a CJ major and understand I have 4th amendment rights but I believe he had enough probable cause to conduct a protective sweep. As he was yet to identify me as the home owner for sure. The neighbor said that no one was home because my car was not in the drive as it normally is. Apparently, I didn't answer the first time they announced themselves. I had just come at them w/ a flashlight (just as caller described) and gun.

This was not started to be a 4th amendment thread. The search wasn't the issue to me. I want to better my way of handling these encounters. I just realize how close of a call it was. I didn't hear the police announce themselves and went armed to investigate a noise at the back of the house. If i would have been a bit slower down the hall I would have probably leveled a pistol on two LEOs as they rounded the corner. Not a good plan.

Your case is, indeed, a different one than those which some responders, myself included, have written about on this thread. The difference was you were a suspect, not the requesting homeowner in their eyes. The terms are different in your case. The LEO's didn't know you were a resident so they had to act as though you were a perp and work backwards from there.

This is precisely how anyone who carries must respond to a situation. Always assume the worse case scenario and then work backwards from it. If you don't do this, you may find yourself playing catchup to rapidly changing events.

I would say that in this specific instance, the police acted as expected and as they should have simply because you were not the requester and they had to assume there was a felon in the house.

It's funny that you just posted this. A few days ago, I was going around my house late at night with a flashlight doing a few things. Reading your post makes me reflect on that a little. and to see it from a different perspective.

beatcop
06-30-2012, 08:09
I would never surrender my firearm in a case like this. I have had three incidences where the police responded/came to my house and in all three, I had a firearm in hand. When they entered my home (two times), they did not do a sweep and I did not hand them, nor did they ask, for my handgun. In one case, they were looking for a teenage girl who was a close friend of my youngest daughter and who was missing. The knocked on my door at just after 6:00am on Sunday and I carefully worked myself to the door with my gun in hand. When I saw it was an officer, I put the gun on a floor speaker close by then answered the door. He wanted to talk to my daughter. As he entered I pointed to the gun and he just nodded and said, "okay".

If the police come to my home on my request because of a 911 call I made, I do not expect them, nor will I surrender my firearm. I may place it in one of my "spots", or in a pocket, if I had time to put pants on, but it stays with me.

I suggest you don't open any door to the police...anytime. Probably in your best interest due to the choices you make/state.

SouthernBoyVA
06-30-2012, 08:38
I suggest you don't open any door to the police...anytime. Probably in your best interest due to the choices you make/state.

Of the two out of three times police have come to my home (as I reported above), I placed my gun on the stairs in the foyer in one case and on a floor speaker in the other. In neither case did the officer make any deal about it when he entered my home nor did he take control of my firearm, run any checks, or unload it. Must be Virginia.

packeagle
06-30-2012, 10:31
Of the two out of three times police have come to my home (as I reported above), I placed my gun on the stairs in the foyer in one case and on a floor speaker in the other. In neither case did the officer make any deal about it when he entered my home nor did he take control of my firearm, run any checks, or unload it. Must be Virginia.

Did you fit the description of a B&E suspect? I didn't call the police. The neighbor did. I was the suspect in this case.

wjv
06-30-2012, 10:37
I use a flashlight quite a bit at night . . Usually set on 10 lumens. I hate turning on bright lights at night and blinding myself!!

To the OP

LOCK YOUR DANG DOORS!!!!

If the cops could just walk in, so can the bad guys. .

SouthernBoyVA
06-30-2012, 10:41
Did you fit the description of a B&E suspect? I didn't call the police. The neighbor did. I was the suspect in this case.

See my post #31 above.

Bruce M
06-30-2012, 14:18
I would think that in this particular case a locked door would go much further to protect from illegal entry than would a Glock 22 or any specific tactics in using the pistol.

NDCent
06-30-2012, 14:43
I wont be using my flashlight to navigate my house anymore. Other than that what else could/should I have done?


I read the entire thread.

Buy some depends and don't get out of bed when it's dark.

cowboy1964
06-30-2012, 15:14
I guess if you have 1/2 smoked joints (or other drugs) lying around you should not consent to a search.

Seriously? So you're ok with "unreasonable" searches at any time and for any reason?

cowboy1964
06-30-2012, 15:16
Deleted.

cowboy1964
06-30-2012, 15:17
Yeah, I wouldn't have consented to a search of my property, or to them taking my firearm--especially in my own home, no matter what call they got.

You would really take a chance on being shot?

beatcop
06-30-2012, 19:04
You would really take a chance on being shot?

Non-compliance at a time when the facts may not be quite clear is a bad idea...confusion can ensue, then Darwin rears his head.

Green_Manelishi
06-30-2012, 19:33
It truly is saddening the effect the "justice" system's emphasis on criminal rights have had on the average person and his interaction with the police. I dare say years ago everyone would have no problem with the Police. Now it's "oops, better protect my rights."

Misty02
07-01-2012, 05:54
And what about the statistics of criminals posing as police, gaining entry in your home, and performing a home invasion on you and your terrified family.

Should you call 911 beforehand to verify police are in the area / outside your home? If so, was there enough time to call 911 in the OP scenario?

Would it be unreasonable to inform the "people outside" that you're the homeowner, have a gun and are in the process of calling 911 to verify that the gentlemen dressed in police uniform are in-fact LE officers? Would the police comply, or would they deem that as an aggressive or stalling tactic from a potential perp and apprehend and arrest you for interfering with a police investigation while they perform their sweep?

Of all the police impersonators Iíve read or heard about to date none arrived in marked vehicles. Marked vehicles + uniforms, it is highly probable and likely certain they are the real thing. Unmarked vehicles? That one I would question.

Based on the OP description, it doesnít appear there was much of a choice. I believe in a similar situation I would be saying Iím the homeowner and donít consent to a search, but there is no way Iím doing anything physical to impede their entrance.

.

Misty02
07-01-2012, 06:07
I have good outside lighting outside my house. I would have turned on those lights from inside my dark house without going outside so I could see who was there and they couldn't see me.
By going outside you lost the element of surprise, protective cover and any other home-field advantage you would have had. A real burglar could have shot you, the police could have shot "the guy with the gun", mistaking you for a bad guy.
Glad it turned out OK.

Iím in agreement with you.

By the way, motion sensor lights are real cheap at Home Depot (under $10 Ė on special). Annoying as heck, we had to get bulbs that were not as bright as there is no need for our house to be seen brightly lit from out of space or being blinded the second a vehicle enters our driveway (still have some around the house to change).

It would be very sad to fall victim to an armed burglar in our own property, even worse if we do to someone trying to help.

.

Misty02
07-01-2012, 06:14
Oops, my apologies packeagle. I got caught up in the "outside" discussion topics and forgot this happened inside your house.

Well, the same question would apply.

Would law enforcement grant you the right to call 911 to verify their identity before traveling further into your home? It would make for a fairly tense situation, to say the least. But at least you would make sure they are LE and not a group of home invasion impersonators.

I missed the ďinside the homeĒ as well.

I highly doubt youíll be able to make the slightest move toward anything (including a phone) if theyíre the real thing. Which makes for a real bad situation if you didnít get a chance to see the marked units outside.

I donít even want to think about what happens in that case as others in my house are more likely to believe it is a home invasion situation and weíre all armed. The mere thought has sent chills down my spine. I pray we all get to see the marked units in time.


.

Misty02
07-01-2012, 06:23
The back door was unlocked. They said that they announced that they were the police before making entry. I just heard "a noise". (Them making the entry through the unlocked door.) I feel he had probable cause for a sweep. Given the circumstances.

I take it all back. Back door open, flashlights inside, call made by neighbor, armed person found inside. Too many things out of place to not do exactly as they did. I still would have told them I didnít consent to the search, but they would have been out of their mind if they didnít.

.

RussP
07-01-2012, 06:46
The back door was unlocked. They said that they announced that they were the police before making entry. I just heard "a noise". (Them making the entry through the unlocked door.) I feel he had probable cause for a sweep. Given the circumstances.Was that an accident, or are you in the habit of leaving a door unlocked?

Stevekozak
07-01-2012, 07:55
Well, I am glad everything turned out ok. That said, I am a little disturbed that the police entered your home uninvited, based only on a phone call of seeing a flashlight moving in the house. Lock your doors!

racer88
07-01-2012, 08:07
It truly is saddening the effect the "justice" system's emphasis on criminal rights have had on the average person and his interaction with the police. I dare say years ago everyone would have no problem with the Police. Now it's "oops, better protect my rights."

So... asserting your rights as a law-abiding citizen is akin to "criminal rights???" :shocked:

I don't "have a problem with the police." Not at all. Perhaps what is sad is that increasingly we hear about the police infringing upon those rights. The natural outcome of that is citizens becoming more aware of their rights and taking steps to protect them.

But, yeah.... doors LOCKED!

packeagle
07-01-2012, 08:20
I've generally been keeping the rear door unlocked. I mistakenly wasn't concerned about the possibility of a home invasion enough to change habit. I have locked the doors every night after that. Just glad it really was the police that changed the habit and not a criminal.

Misty02
07-01-2012, 08:23
Well, I am glad everything turned out ok. That said, I am a little disturbed that the police entered your home uninvited, based only on a phone call of seeing a flashlight moving in the house. Lock your doors!

I would expect them to do no less after (1) a concerned call, (2) flashlight moving inside, (3) open door and then (3) finding an armed person walking around in the residence. PJís or fully dressed might have been a clue, but not one I would count on as being a fully objective determining factor.

Step back for a second and review everything again objectively. Thankfully it wasnít the case, but it could have also been possible the people inside that home were in real trouble. Given what they had, I would have been very thankful for their approach.
.

Misty02
07-01-2012, 08:30
I've generally been keeping the rear door unlocked. I mistakenly wasn't concerned about the possibility of a home invasion enough to change habit. I have locked the doors every night after that. Just glad it really was the police that changed the habit and not a criminal.

Good new habit. In spite the bad experience, I would also be inclined to thank the neighbor for carrying about your welfare (donít deter their vigilance as that can one day be what saves you and your family), I would even thank the officers; honestly, based on what they knew at the time, they were acting in your familyís best interest.

Ö.. and yes, I would have still told them, at the time, I didnít consent to the search knowing they would anyway.

:wavey:


.

packeagle
07-01-2012, 08:33
I went over that night with the police and thanked them all for their "help." I was honestly appreciative of my neighbors concern.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

Misty02
07-01-2012, 08:43
I went over that night with the police and thanked them all for their "help." I was honestly appreciative of my neighbors concern.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

Then it seems like a bad experience that yielded overall good results. You are now more careful with locking doors, know your neighbors care and found out that police response time in your part of town is not so shabby. Not the best way to find out about all that, but what the heck, beggars canít be choosers. ;)

.

Stevekozak
07-01-2012, 08:53
I would expect them to do no less after (1) a concerned call, (2) flashlight moving inside, (3) open door and then (3) finding an armed person walking around in the residence. PJís or fully dressed might have been a clue, but not one I would count on as being a fully objective determining factor.

Step back for a second and review everything again objectively. Thankfully it wasnít the case, but it could have also been possible the people inside that home were in real trouble. Given what they had, I would have been very thankful for their approach.
.

Misty,
I reread the OP and subsequent posts. From what I read, the police got the concerned call. So I grant you point 1. I don't, however, see anywhere in the posts that the police saw a moving flashlight in the home. I also don't see where the door was open. Unlocked and open are two very different states of being. As I understand the posts, the police were already inside his home before they ever saw or heard the OP. So, I still have concerns about them entering the home based on the phone call. An unlocked door (as careless and "stupid" (OP not calling you stupid, I am glad you are locking your door now) as it might be, is not an invitation to enter. There may be more information that resulted in the police doing what they did, but based on what I have read here, it is concerning. At least to me. :wavey:

packeagle
07-01-2012, 09:06
I had just come at them w/ a flashlight (just as caller described) and gun.

They were already in the house by this point, but I did shine a flashlight on/at them.


Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

Stevekozak
07-01-2012, 09:12
They were already in the house by this point, but I did shine a flashlight on/at them.


Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
I stand corrected on that point. Had they seen your flashlight prior to entering the home, to your knowledge?

Misty02
07-01-2012, 09:12
Misty,
I reread the OP and subsequent posts. From what I read, the police got the concerned call. So I grant you point 1. I don't, however, see anywhere in the posts that the police saw a moving flashlight in the home. I also don't see where the door was open. Unlocked and open are two very different states of being. As I understand the posts, the police were already inside his home before they ever saw or heard the OP. So, I still have concerns about them entering the home based on the phone call. An unlocked door (as careless and "stupid" (OP not calling you stupid, I am glad you are locking your door now) as it might be, is not an invitation to enter. There may be more information that resulted in the police doing what they did, but based on what I have read here, it is concerning. At least to me. :wavey:

He mentioned he was going through the house with a flashlight; there is no reason to believe the officers didnít observe from the outside long enough to see it as well. An unlocked door doesnít imply others have consent to enter but for most properties it does represent the possibility of foul play inside given the other signs.

Letís put it this way, Iíll personalize it so it is clear it is just what I believe/think and not what others may subscribe to. If the police respond to a call because my neighbors saw someone going through the house with a flashlight, they come and find a door unlocked and no one to greet them before they enter, I want them to come in and make sure weíre all still in one piece.

packeagle has no alarm that would chime and alert him when a door has been opened (which happens even when the alarm isnít on), there are no dogs to alert him of intruders, the door was unlocked, he didnít hear the arriving vehicle(s) or the person(s) entering the house. He could have been chopped into little pieces and no one would have known if not by an actual physical inspection of the premises. If you were in his place, which would you prefer? Iím not saying you should vocalize consent for a search, which I wouldnít, but letís be real here, packeagle was in a very vulnerable position where a crime against his home was highly possible.


.

Stevekozak
07-01-2012, 09:26
He mentioned he was going through the house with a flashlight; there is no reason to believe the officers didnít observe from the outside long enough to see it as well. An unlocked door doesnít imply others have consent to enter but for most properties it does represent the possibility of foul play inside given the other signs.

Letís put it this way, Iíll personalize it so it is clear it is just what I believe/think and not what others may subscribe to. If the police respond to a call because my neighbors saw someone going through the house with a flashlight, they come and find a door unlocked and no one to greet them before they enter, I want them to come in and make sure weíre all still in one piece.

packeagle has no alarm that would chime and alert him when a door has been opened (which happens even when the alarm isnít on), there are no dogs to alert him of intruders, the door was unlocked, he didnít hear the arriving vehicle(s) or the person(s) entering the house. He could have been chopped into little pieces and no one would have known if not by an actual physical inspection of the premises. If you were in his place, which would you prefer? Iím not saying you should vocalize consent for a search, which I wouldnít, but letís be real here, packeagle was in a very vulnerable position where a crime against his home was highly possible.


.
Given only the information that has been provided by the OP, I would prefer the police not enter my home. If the back door appeared to be busted open, or other signs of foul play evident, I might have a different preference, but if the circumstances were only as presented by OP, I would be unhappy to have any one enter the home uninvited. As the OP was concerned about in his opening post, the invited presence in him home could have caused an unfortunate situation, ie: two armed and ready sets of ppl meeting suddenly in a hallway, etc.

Misty02
07-01-2012, 09:47
Given only the information that has been provided by the OP, I would prefer the police not enter my home. If the back door appeared to be busted open, or other signs of foul play evident, I might have a different preference, but if the circumstances were only as presented by OP, I would be unhappy to have any one enter the home uninvited. As the OP was concerned about in his opening post, the invited presence in him home could have caused an unfortunate situation, ie: two armed and ready sets of ppl meeting suddenly in a hallway, etc.

We differ on this one, obviously, and that is ok. :)

I do agree that it made for a potentially serious and dangerous outcome; the possibility of a shootout inside the house was high. Our door lock would be difficult to pick open, but I wouldnít expect arriving officers to know that.


.

Green_Manelishi
07-01-2012, 12:36
So... asserting your rights as a law-abiding citizen is akin to "criminal rights???" :shocked:


The fear the Police might be planning to frame you for something is a sad statement on the decline of our culture.

racer88
07-01-2012, 15:49
The fear the Police might be planning to frame you for something is a sad statement on the decline of our culture.

No, no, no. You're not understanding (at all). This has NOTHING to do with "framing." I'm not at all concerned about being "framed."

Asserting your rights has NOTHING to do with the avoidance of being "framed." I'm chuckling a bit, because the two things are SO far removed, the notion is laughable.

Asserting your rights (when it comes to situations like this) is about the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th Amendments. The bottom line is that you could be incriminated for something you had NO part in, due to forfeiting your rights. You can be completely innocent... but at the wrong place at the wrong time... and not even know it. Forfeiting your rights (even when you have "nothing to hide") can make the difference between nothing happening and going to jail.

Always, always, ALWAYS assert your rights. It's got nothing to do with "hatin' cops" or "cooperating with LE."

To do otherwise is simply out of ignorance (of what can happen in the perfect storm of stuff you may not even be aware of).

packeagle
07-01-2012, 20:36
I generally agree, however, case law dictates there are exceptions to 4th amendment protections. I am sure that my example fits the protective sweep exemption to a T.

IhRedrider
07-02-2012, 12:32
Like others have stated.

Somethings don't add up.

You live in a neighborhood where it is dangerous enough for your neighbor to call the cops because they saw a light in your house. Your neighbor is apparently a sane and reasonable person because you went and thanked them for their "help". Yet the Cops gained entry into your house without you knowing until you almost had a face to face? Then you let them search your house AFTER an illegal entry by them? And you let them disarm you in YOUR home after an illegal entry?

Have you lodged an official complaint with the DA or filed a civil lawsuit? Out of curiosity, where do you live? Not calling you a troll, yet, but it sounds fishy. Or you live in an area that is in firm control of the "nanny protector you have no rights" government. In which case I would leave post haste or take a stand while you can. They will only violate the rights that you let them violate.

CA Escapee
07-02-2012, 12:44
I wont be using my flashlight to navigate my house anymore. Other than that what else could/should I have done?


Use a flashlight with a red LED, the light won't travel as far.

Bill

packeagle
07-02-2012, 17:15
It is he honest to god truth. What would I have to gain from trolling on an online forum? I didn't even want to get into the 4th amendment implications. I wanted to know given the encounter what would have been a better course of actions. Looking back, I couldn't have done much more than locking my doors, not using a flashlight to get around, and announce my presence well before investigating the situation.

Lets look at the fact patterns surrounding the police's actions.

Exigent circumstances for entry:
-Call from the neighbor stating he sees flashlights in the home.
-He states that I am not home because my vehicle is parked in the detached carport.
-I hear a noise so I investigate, heading to the rear of the house using a flashlight (Police possibly seen it through a window before making entry.)
-Door is unlocked, but closed.

Probable cause for protective sweep:
-I meet them at the back door caring a flashlight and armed
-If I were the burglar, I could have an accomplice in the house

JerryVO
07-02-2012, 17:52
One question I have not seen asked is why did you announce yourself and alert the police to your presence I don't know that I would have done the same especially if I am quietly investigating. In this case that would not have gone well but if it was a bg you gave yourself away. Do most of you announce yourself in this situation?

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jdavionic
07-02-2012, 17:55
Interesting post...thanks for putting it out there. With false cops doing home invasions, your scenario could have easily ended in a disaster.

packeagle
07-02-2012, 17:58
I announced myself because of NRA personal protection in the home training course I took to obtain a Michigan CPL. Its a cya thing if (god forbid) I have to pull the trigger mostly.

IhRedrider
07-02-2012, 19:28
Looking back, I couldn't have done much more than locking my doors, not using a flashlight to get around, and announce my presence well before investigating the situation.

Maybe it's an absolute and uncompromising stand that I have on rights and responsibility, if someone comes into my home uninvited, they get shoot. And before any of you bleeding heart libs cry, Yes my children know this and would NEVER come in unannounced. That said, your house, your rules, do what you want. That's your right.

I personally would never stand for cops coming into my house, uninvited, based upon the unsubstantiated reports of a neighbor.

Like I said before, I'm NOT calling you a troll at this time. Maybe it's a different culture. But since you asked;
What would I have to gain from trolling on an online forum?

There are various reasons a troll will troll, either just to be a troll up to and including trying to get people to give up their rights based upon some convoluted twisted logic that does not follow logic or reason.

I am glad to know that at the end of the day you are safe.

Misty02
07-03-2012, 04:51
One question I have not seen asked is why did you announce yourself and alert the police to your presence I don't know that I would have done the same especially if I am quietly investigating. In this case that would not have gone well but if it was a bg you gave yourself away. Do most of you announce yourself in this situation?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

Itís never happened to us, so I can only speak to what I ďbelieveĒ I would do. If I knew it was the police and thought there were no other uninvited guests in the house, yes, I would announce myself just as the OP did. If I didnít know it was the police? No, I wouldnít give up my location to the intruder.

.

jim goose
07-03-2012, 15:51
Its not a matter of opinion, its a matter of experience. Those that generally expect their right to protection from illegal searches to be honored, have usually had some sort of bad experience before and understand the value of the 4 th amendment and why it was written. Those that think they deserve some kind of medal for making the job easier, or frown upon on others who expect law enforcement to obey the law, just have not had their bad luck yet. They usually turn fast after that.

packeagle
08-03-2013, 06:02
Woops meant to copy from this. Not post on it. Nothing to see here move along.

packeagle
08-03-2013, 06:23
Wow. I did it again. I guess I cant quote a post here in another thread.

pal2511
08-03-2013, 06:59
I was still held at gun point by the 2nd officer when the sweep took place. I'm a CJ major and understand I have 4th amendment rights but I believe he had enough probable cause to conduct a protective sweep. As he was yet to identify me as the home owner for sure. The neighbor said that no one was home because my car was not in the drive as it normally is. Apparently, I didn't answer the first time they announced themselves. I had just come at them w/ a flashlight (just as caller described) and gun.

This was not started to be a 4th amendment thread. The search wasn't the issue to me. I want to better my way of handling these encounters. I just realize how close of a call it was. I didn't hear the police announce themselves and went armed to investigate a noise at the back of the house. If i would have been a bit slower down the hall I would have probably leveled a pistol on two LEOs as they rounded the corner. Not a good plan.

The police were probably trying to be quiet so they didn't get hurt either when they came around the corner. They may or may not have heard you.

How could you hear them outside but didn't hear them knocking

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

pal2511
08-03-2013, 07:04
I would never surrender my firearm in a case like this. I have had three incidences where the police responded/came to my house and in all three, I had a firearm in hand. When they entered my home (two times), they did not do a sweep and I did not hand them, nor did they ask, for my handgun. In one case, they were looking for a teenage girl who was a close friend of my youngest daughter and who was missing. The knocked on my door at just after 6:00am on Sunday and I carefully worked myself to the door with my gun in hand. When I saw it was an officer, I put the gun on a floor speaker close by then answered the door. He wanted to talk to my daughter. As he entered I pointed to the gun and he just nodded and said, "okay".

If the police come to my home on my request because of a 911 call I made, I do not expect them, nor will I surrender my firearm. I may place it in one of my "spots", or in a pocket, if I had time to put pants on, but it stays with me.

Keep that philosophy up and see how it works for you

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Bill Lumberg
08-03-2013, 07:12
You did fine. And thank your neighbor for looking out for you. Honestly they didn't give me a choice. It's fun to play tough guy on the Internet and say that you wouldn't have complied. If it weren't for folks like that, there's be no good COPS episodes. Taser up.

steveksux
08-03-2013, 07:51
Isn't that how Watergate started?I don't think the Watergate "plumbers" were primarily interested in using the indoor plumbing... :tongueout::supergrin:

Randy

packeagle
08-03-2013, 07:53
You did fine. And thank your neighbor for looking out for you.

Not exactly my words in that quote.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

Gunnut 45/454
08-03-2013, 09:22
packeagle
Lets see here, your to lazy to turn a light on to go to the bathroom? You obviously leave your doors unlocked? When you know someones in your home your still to lazy to turn on a light? I'd say your very lucky it was the cops instead of someone who actually wanted to do you harm! Don't you have a porch light so you can see if someone is actually on your porch at night?:faint:

void *
08-03-2013, 09:37
And what about the statistics of criminals posing as police, gaining entry in your home, and performing a home invasion on you and your terrified family

Since we're talking about statistics - what percentage of home invasions involve the criminals impersonating police?

unit1069
08-03-2013, 16:57
I was laying down to bed when I heard rustling noise out back near my back door. I grab my G22 and head that way with my flashlight to see whats going on. Not sure if its an intruder or an animal on/under the back deck. As I am about to round the corner to the back stairs i hear some one walking up them. They yell that its the police. I yell back that I'm the homeowner and I have a gun. They tell the me to put it down. I comply as i now see them in police gear. They clear my firearm and do a sweep of the home. They say the neighbor called because I used my flashlight to go to the bathroom instead of of turning on the house lights. (I did and can understand the concern) The officers take my info and are on their way. I went to the neighbors house and thanked him for looking out for me.

I wont be using my flashlight to navigate my house anymore. Other than that what else could/should I have done?

Looking back I could have identified myself sooner. I can only imagine the consequences if the police would have rounded the corner before our verbal exchange. We would have been muzzle to muzzle in the hallway.

Buy a 6-pack of night lights at Wal-Mart to avoid this situation in the future.

Deaf Smith
08-03-2013, 17:07
I was laying down to bed when I heard rustling noise out back near my back door. I grab my G22 and head that way with my flashlight to see whats going on. Not sure if its an intruder or an animal on/under the back deck. As I am about to round the corner to the back stairs i hear some one walking up them. They yell that its the police. I yell back that I'm the homeowner and I have a gun. They tell the me to put it down. I comply as i now see them in police gear. They clear my firearm and do a sweep of the home. They say the neighbor called because I used my flashlight to go to the bathroom instead of of turning on the house lights. (I did and can understand the concern) The officers take my info and are on their way. I went to the neighbors house and thanked him for looking out for me.

I wont be using my flashlight to navigate my house anymore. Other than that what else could/should I have done?

Looking back I could have identified myself sooner. I can only imagine the consequences if the police would have rounded the corner before our verbal exchange. We would have been muzzle to muzzle in the hallway.

Unlocked back door? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?

First I'd have asked for their ID (badge number) and then called the PD to verify they are cops. Fake cops do wear police gear now days. Then complied if they were the cops.

Second I would not have mentioned I was armed. Once I knew they really were LEO I'd just pick the gun up. And if they were NOT the police, I'd surprise the dickens out of them when they tried to bust in.

Flash light to go to the bathroom? I'd tell my neighbor to sod off and mind their own business.

Deaf

SCmasterblaster
08-05-2013, 07:21
If I saw a flashlight in my neighbor's house I would call my neighbor, not the police.

dosei
08-05-2013, 10:19
I was laying down to bed when I heard rustling noise out back near my back door. I grab my G22 and head that way with my flashlight to see whats going on. Not sure if its an intruder or an animal on/under the back deck. As I am about to round the corner to the back stairs i hear some one walking up them. They yell that its the police. I yell back that I'm the homeowner and I have a gun. They tell the me to put it down. I comply as i now see them in police gear. They clear my firearm and do a sweep of the home. They say the neighbor called because I used my flashlight to go to the bathroom instead of of turning on the house lights. (I did and can understand the concern) The officers take my info and are on their way. I went to the neighbors house and thanked him for looking out for me.

I wont be using my flashlight to navigate my house anymore. Other than that what else could/should I have done?

Looking back I could have identified myself sooner. I can only imagine the consequences if the police would have rounded the corner before our verbal exchange. We would have been muzzle to muzzle in the hallway.

I was still held at gun point by the 2nd officer when the sweep took place. I'm a CJ major and understand I have 4th amendment rights but I believe he had enough probable cause to conduct a protective sweep. As he was yet to identify me as the home owner for sure. The neighbor said that no one was home because my car was not in the drive as it normally is. Apparently, I didn't answer the first time they announced themselves. I had just come at them w/ a flashlight (just as caller described) and gun.

This was not started to be a 4th amendment thread. The search wasn't the issue to me. I want to better my way of handling these encounters. I just realize how close of a call it was. I didn't hear the police announce themselves and went armed to investigate a noise at the back of the house. If i would have been a bit slower down the hall I would have probably leveled a pistol on two LEOs as they rounded the corner. Not a good plan.

Just to be clear, this took place inside my home. I didn't know it was the police until they were already inside the house. I only heard some noise (them making entry) thats why I went to investigate the situation.

The back door was unlocked. They said that they announced that they were the police before making entry. I just heard "a noise". (Them making the entry through the unlocked door.) I feel he had probable cause for a sweep. Given the circumstances.

Yet another reason why, no matter how safe you are convinced your neighborhood/town/city is, you should keep your doors locked. Glad to see that the OP has realized this and replaced a bad habit (leaving the back door unlocked all the time) with a good one (locking the back door at night). Hopefully this is a "wake up call" for any others with a similar bad habit. When you leave your doors unlocked you have, in a way, given away some of your rights and increased your liability...that is a very bad habit to have.

cowboy1964
08-05-2013, 15:08
Deleted

steveksux
08-05-2013, 20:40
If you are going to pack heat outdoors, carry your ID/wallet.

"Sir, here's my ID...I live here...See address on license."

Done.

Otherwise, you are some guy lurking with a gun who just killed the owner of the house...who they will now look inside for.guy lurking with a gun who just killed the owner of the house and took his ID/wallet off the homeowner...

Randy

Filhar
08-07-2013, 07:44
I've generally been keeping the rear door unlocked. I mistakenly wasn't concerned about the possibility of a home invasion enough to change habit. I have locked the doors every night after that. Just glad it really was the police that changed the habit and not a criminal.

Are you serious? You have a gun available, and you "generally" leave the rear door unlocked. Put a sign on the door that says "free gun, enter here". Maybe home defense classes should emphasize locking your doors, duh.

Lord
08-09-2013, 10:30
It's not giving them a "hard time." It's a 4th Amendment issue, not to mention what should be common sense.

Exactly



By CONSENTING to what amounts to a SEARCH of your home, you open yourself up to whatever the LEOs happen to find during their search. What if your friend dropped a half-smoked joint over in the corner? What if you had some Vicodins laying on the coffee table?

Again... Exactly

Never, EVER let the police search your house without a warrant.

+1


I'm not saying that in this case LE was on any sort of fishing expedition.

Not Exactly... of COURSE they were on a fishing expedition. You think they got all adrenalized and enjoyed just walking away???


They were "just doing their job" and had very noble intentions, I'm sure.

wrong. When LEO ask if they can look around, they don't have noble intentions. They are LOOKING for trouble and when they find it, it's trouble FOR YOU not them.


Always, ALWAYS protect your rights. It can be done civilly, respectfully, with a smile and a thank you. This has NOTHING to do with "cop-bashing" or "LEO-hating." I'm a big fan of LE, personally. But, I'm a HUGE fan of the Constitution.

Exactly, and ditto for me.

Bill Lumberg
08-09-2013, 11:46
In the case of LE, looking for trouble in the course of their duties is noble. Don't advertise trouble and you don't have to be bitter and afraid of the cops.

SGT HATRED
08-09-2013, 12:53
ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF ADMITTING TO OPENING MY DOOR WITH NO WARRANT! - YouTube Not sure what choice you had in this situation, but if it were me I would be filling a complaint and possibly a lawsuit.
Reminds me of this video