I know it's been asked before but... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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coleslaw
06-29-2012, 22:30
Do I really need a rifle? My bug out firearm is my handgun, but I brought a Rem 870 12 gauge for if things really get bad now everyone tells me I need a rifle. Look I'm just a civilian trying to be prepared, I'm not looking to be a one man army because I know that's a good way to get myself killed, I'm not thinking about zombie invasions... Ok maybe I do think about zombie invasions lol... I just want to be prepared to feed, hydrate and protect myself and my family if I ever have one. So what is it guys? Do I need to drop the money on the rifle, training, ammo and accesories or is my 12 gauge and handgun combo suffecient enough for any or atleast most situations?

I need some help so I'll take anyone's opinion no matter what you say. I just want to know if I'm not doing enough for my protection and survival when it comes to firearms.

kirgi08
06-29-2012, 23:12
Yep.'08.

RedHaze
06-30-2012, 00:13
Sounds like somebody needs to go buy a mosin nagant...

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DaScotsman
06-30-2012, 00:59
If you want to use a handgun and a shotgun to protect your family and property, you don't need a rifle. . . . . . . until you're defending against someone who has a rifle.

Handguns and shotguns are great... but anyone with any skill can make your life pretty miserable with a simple 10/22 from 100 yards away, well beyond the realistic effective range of your other weapons.

SFCSMITH(RET)
06-30-2012, 05:33
IF you believe there will come a time when you will need to defend your self and loved ones. (and why else would you be in S&P...)

Then yes, you need a rifle. I won't go with the "100 yard threat" scenario, because, at 100 yards I have taken several deer with both a pistol and a shotgun. But it takes practice, and most people can't hit a man sized target at that range, but some can, maybe even you.

But, a decent rifle makes it easier to hit at that distance, and more importantly, beyond, it delivers more energy on target, holds more ammo, and is quicker to reload. (all of the above are not absolutes, but generalizations)

Most everybody I have ever read, or talked to about it, supports and can give solid explanation of why, pistol, rifle, shotgun.

UneasyRider
06-30-2012, 06:45
A pistol and a concealed carry permit is 99 percent of what I think that we will need for a sudden change in the economy like what we are going to see (Greece). A shotgun is always a nice home defense weapon but a pistol will run off the kind of trash that will be your problem too.

That said if things get worse than that and the other guy has a rifle and you don't have a rifle he owns you. Cancel all plans to travel, go outside of your house, or open your windows or whatever covers them. You are a sitting duck with no way to fight back, you probably won't survive this one with a rifle anyway unless you run. I really don't see this as a likely scenario in the U.S. myself but you may wish to prepare for it like any other.

FatBoy
06-30-2012, 08:06
Do you need one? Probably not. Do you need fire insurance for your house? Probably not. But it's nice to have if you do.

IMHO, if you are going to go down the road(figuratively not literally) that you may need a handgun or shotgun after a social collapse, then a rifle is also needed.

DoctaGlockta
06-30-2012, 08:18
There is only one correct answer to the question

"Should I purchase another firearm?"

Answer is always YES

RMTactical
06-30-2012, 09:33
I believe everyman should own a rifle. Even if it is just a Mosin or something, although you can do much better than that.

garyo
06-30-2012, 10:15
I think FatBoy and RMTactical sum it up best. If you are a gun guy, get a rifle. If not but still consider your preps important, then the purchase of a rifle should go on your list in the order of importance you give it. Also keep in mind that most high quality guns are an investment and will be worth more than you pay for them some day. Overall I don't think it is that big a deal, do what feels comfortable to you. Good luck.

ranger1968
06-30-2012, 10:31
And if you get a rifle, find and attend an Appleseed to get some good, basic instruction on marksmanship.....

thetoastmaster
06-30-2012, 11:01
And if you get a rifle, find and attend an Appleseed to get some good, basic instruction on marksmanship.....

There it is.

A handgun is likely sufficient to defend your life and property. To defend your liberty, you need a rifle.

If push comes to shove, sell the shotgun. Buy a rifle, the best you can painfully afford. Train as often as you can.

quake
06-30-2012, 17:41
A pistol and a concealed carry permit is 99 percent of what I think that we will need for a sudden change in the economy like what we are going to see (Greece)...

Do you need one? Probably not. Do you need fire insurance for your house? Probably not. But it's nice to have if you do...

I'd agree with both of these; and fact is I'm a rifle/carbine guy a whole lot more than a shotgun guy.

Greece/Argentina/NOLA, handgun is by far the most important imo. As far as "need", I'd say a good handgun & 870 is more than capable for probably 99% of what any of us as civilians are likely to encounter.

That said, if you currently owned a rifle but no shotgun and asked "do I need a shotgun", my answer would be the same. Good to have, I wouldn't want to be without it, but I wouldn't list it as a genuine "need". Especially if there are other things that might be a higher priority - food & water type things especially would take a much higher priority for me personally given your current firearms. If you're in your comfort zone for food, water & such, then a rifle or carbine (from a mosin to an AR) would be great to have in addition to those life-essential basics; but not instead of those life-essential basics.

Travelin' Jack
06-30-2012, 17:55
Handguns and shotguns are great... but anyone with any skill can make your life pretty miserable with a simple 10/22 from 100 yards away, well beyond the realistic effective range of your other weapons.

I think this logic is kind of silly. What if he has a rifle but the hypothetical enemy has mortars or shoulder fired rockets? What if they have light armored LAV's and he only has a pickup truck? You have to draw the line somewhere and I think a long range shoot out is fairly unrealistic.

I think a shotgun and a side arm is a fine combination. Shotguns are both powerful and versatile.

I'd still want a rifle because I like rifles. Need? I don't think so.

RMTactical
06-30-2012, 20:56
I think this logic is kind of silly. What if he has a rifle but the hypothetical enemy has mortars or shoulder fired rockets? What if they have light armored LAV's and he only has a pickup truck? You have to draw the line somewhere and I think a long range shoot out is fairly unrealistic.

I think a shotgun and a side arm is a fine combination. Shotguns are both powerful and versatile.

I'd still want a rifle because I like rifles. Need? I don't think so.

That is quite a step up going from rifle to mortars and rockets, at least when you are talking civvies.

A rifle is VERY common. rockets, mortars, LAV's, are not...

Travelin' Jack
06-30-2012, 21:04
That is quite a step up going from rifle to mortars and rockets, at least when you are talking civvies.

A rifle is VERY common. rockets, mortars, LAV's, are not...

They are quite common. Are long range rifle battles between civilians very common?

Further, I'm assuming that if someone outside of shotgun and pistol range saw me and decided to kill me with a rifle, I'll probably be dead before I can get my rifle, take cover and return fire. If I really have time to pull that off without getting killed, I could probably have just fled or positioned myself so that I couldn't be shot at that range and waited the attacker out with my shotgun.

RWBlue
06-30-2012, 22:14
Do you need one? Probably not. Do you need fire insurance for your house? Probably not. But it's nice to have if you do.

IMHO, if you are going to go down the road(figuratively not literally) that you may need a handgun or shotgun after a social collapse, then a rifle is also needed.

+1

And i will go on to ask a question:
How often do you take your shotgun to the rang and shoot slugs and buckshot?
How much do those slugs and buck cost?
How beat up do you feel at the end of a 100+ round session?

Wouldn't you prefer to have a little 22lr to practice with?
Doesn't a day plinking with an SKS or AR or AK sound better than a day shooting slugs?

I was a shotgun man for SHTF, but after a long day at the range shooting slugs and buck, i decided that IF i ever have to defend myself at 100+ yards and have time to select my tool, it will not be my shotgun. My shotgun is the tool i use when i dont know what is going to happen and hunting.

FireForged
06-30-2012, 22:50
I have always felt that no matter what threat you are trying to mitigate, you cant cover every possibility. You really just paint yourself in a corner when you over intellectualize what should be a very basic consideration.

I would imagine that there are plenty of situations where you could find yourself in the middle of a crisis or disaster and need a means to protect yourself. Most consider a pistol to be plenty for 50yards or less and if it were me, my Survival plans would be designed around those limitations. A shotgun adds a very nice bonus. :supergrin:

To answer your question.. It sounds like you are doing just fine.

Stevekozak
07-01-2012, 07:24
If you can afford one (and you can get one, esp. used, for very decent prices) then get one. It opens up your options a bit when SHTF. If SHTF before you do, you are probably still in pretty good shape with a decent pistol and and 870.

TangoFoxtrot
07-01-2012, 07:28
If you feel comfortable with a SG and pistol, go with that. Just do yourself a favor and get some good training from qualified instructors on their use.

With that being said, Some like myself like a rifle such as an AR-15 to better our odds tactically. As time goes on you my feel the same. But whatever you choose, TRAIN, TRAIN, and TRAIN some more! :supergrin:

kirgi08
07-01-2012, 07:39
One thing folk aren't considering are ""multi" guns.A .308 0ver a 12ga ect.They do have limitations and upsides.Kind of a quirky little niche but they do have a solid place in worth.'08.

thetoastmaster
07-01-2012, 08:50
One thing folk aren't considering are ""multi" guns.A .308 0ver a 12ga ect.They do have limitations and upsides.Kind of a quirky little niche but they do have a solid place in worth.'08.

Didn't drillings pass from from fashion about a hundred years ago? I'm not being facetious, but does anyone make a production, field grade drilling these days? If so, how well do they work under dirty field conditions? The whole concept is intriguing, to be sure; but they seem too fragile to me.

kirgi08
07-01-2012, 09:16
They are out there,a friend has a NEF .308 0ver .410.Folks there are guns out there that fill niches.A dual use rifle that is reliable and accurate is King.'08.

thetoastmaster
07-01-2012, 09:22
I still think I'd prefer an SLR for my one gun; but I do understand that every situation is different.

I forgot about NEF, definitely not a top-shelf brand; but for anything short of hard use I'm sure they're adequate. If they're available in .410, they're probably available in 20 gauge, too (which is a much more versatile caliber, in my opinion).

Where you stand depends upon where you sit. For taking game and general survival, a shotgun is plenty good enough. For defending life and liberty, I don't want anything less than a rifle. To that end, it's important to define the parameters of the argument.

kirgi08
07-01-2012, 10:07
I still think I'd prefer an SLR for my one gun; but I do understand that every situation is different.

I forgot about NEF, definitely not a top-shelf brand; but for anything short of hard use I'm sure they're adequate. If they're available in .410, they're probably available in 20 gauge, too (which is a much more versatile caliber, in my opinion).

Where you stand depends upon where you sit. For taking game and general survival, a shotgun is plenty good enough. For defending life and liberty, I don't want anything less than a rifle. To that end, it's important to define the parameters of the argument.


Your above depends on yer research of firearms.I'm a member of the 1000yrd club.I've done such with a Single Shot NEF in a 22in bbl being .308.It's the SKILL of the shot as ta the quality of the equipment.Open sited,scopes fail,marksman don't..'08.

marlinfan
07-01-2012, 22:03
I was a shotgun guy forever. I hunt deer, turkey, waterfowl whatever else with fur or wings with my trusty 12 gauge. I've taken several combat shotgun classes and always had a riot gun sitting in the bedroom. Last year I bought an AK, then got the 3 gun fever and now have an AR with optics and the other toys...I'd still say you're fine if you can run the shotgun under stress, understand your buckshot patterns at 10, 25, or even 50 yards with some of the good ammo and ring the steel at 100 yards with slugs. Don't sweat it. Learn what you have, spend the $1000 you would spend on an AR and go to a handgun class or two becuase that's probably what you'll want to be the most proficient with.

For civilians, the pistol is almost always the "primary"...learn to love it.

TangoFoxtrot
07-02-2012, 04:42
My normal everyday primary is my handgun too, but if a major SHTF senario erupted you better believe the AR and SG come out and get put into ready mode and the handgun becomes my secondary. But again no matter what sytem you perfer, they become worthless without training.

RWBlue
07-02-2012, 08:43
One thing folk aren't considering are ""multi" guns.A .308 0ver a 12ga ect.They do have limitations and upsides.Kind of a quirky little niche but they do have a solid place in worth.'08.

IMHO, the combo gun is the perfect gun for hunting when you have to put food on the table. If someone has a 12ga over a rifle cartridge they want to sell, I want to buy.


But, I would prefer something else if the bullets are going both directions.

pmwglock19
07-02-2012, 08:49
You can take tactical training with the shotgun to shoot out to 100 yds. But is that practical? It boils down to, do you have enough ammo put aside for the SG and pistol? Can you shoot well with each, and finally, do you have the money to pay for the extra practice time needed for you to become proficient with the rifle? Also, where do you live, urban or in the country?

The best answer is what you believe is best for you. Everyone has an opnion on this subject but the only one that matters is yours.

Big Bird
07-02-2012, 09:30
A shotgun is a profound weapon in the right hands. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Take a tactical shotgun course sometime and spend some money on training. You will have fun and gain confidence in your abilities.

You can do a good bit of damage with a shotgun out to 120 yards with the right load.

But get some training with your shotgun and you will be light years ahead of all these AK/AR wielding folks who've never been through a live fire exercise. Most people who downplay the shotgun have no real experience or training with one or killing anything.

Trust me...a shotgun is a profoundly effective weapon at ranges under 120 yards.

BierGut
07-02-2012, 13:13
Do you need a rifle...

It's cold... really cold. It's been months following a SHTF event and you and your family have not had a real protein meal in a long time... You don't happen to have some kind of fancy load that makes a shotgun very effective beyond 100 yards... the world is a different place and (as well as people) animals are keeping there distance... and all of a sudden your lucky enough to see a deer (or fox, or coyote, or even a dog) some 300 yards off in the distance...

You need a rifle?

If you bought one, learned how to use it well -- I think it would be nice at that moment. But that's me. :whistling:

Dirk Pitt
07-02-2012, 13:40
Coleslaw

Going with your original comments I am going to stick my neck out here. Not all "preppers" are gun people. I would say a darn good portion, but not all (I am, but that's not the question) going with what you said I think you are served with your handgun and shotgun. Would I recommend a rifle? Sure, but if you are not comfortable with it or don't have the resources for it, then as others have stated become very proficent with what you have. You can carry a handgun and shotgun on your person and use both (not at the same time) but carrying all 3 is not practical.

Many folks recommend this gun or that gun, I recommend what works for YOU. If you don't feel comfortable with it then don't do it. Do what works for you in your situation. I have all 3 and I am OK with all 3 (not good) just OK. But I feel comfortable with them and the models / calibers I have chosen.

Do what works for you.

Lt Scott 14
07-02-2012, 13:48
Many troops were stalled by Japanese and German snipers w/bolt actions. Concealment and accuracy was a combo well mastered by all soldiers. Fear was the a factor that stalled forward advance on battlefields, and rifles brought it on.
I also have shotgun/pistol combos, and a Mosin Nagant 91/30. At 100 meters you will be easily dispatched. Rounds are 7.62 x 54, not your Federal bulk pac .22s. Not an AR or AK, but heavy, ugly, steel and wood rifle. Worth a look at.

Catshooter
07-02-2012, 18:26
coleslaw,

You're probably good to go.

But here's one more veiwpoint to further confuse you: before a rifle, before a shotgun, even before a pistol and training, you need to deceide for sure that you're willing to shoot someone. Not just some faceless stranger, to make it personal, make it more real, how about your auto mechanic? Your ex-brother in law? The woman down the hall from you?

Many have the tools, even the training. But the percentage of those who are willing to kill someone standing in front of them is much smaller. And while you're standing there hesitating, dithering, trying to screw up your courage it's easy to get killed yourself.

Hope this helps.


Cat

RWBlue
07-02-2012, 19:36
coleslaw,

You're probably good to go.

But here's one more veiwpoint to further confuse you: before a rifle, before a shotgun, even before a pistol and training, you need to deceide for sure that you're willing to shoot someone. Not just some faceless stranger, to make it personal, make it more real, how about your auto mechanic? Your ex-brother in law? The woman down the hall from you?

Many have the tools, even the training. But the percentage of those who are willing to kill someone standing in front of them is much smaller. And while you're standing there hesitating, dithering, trying to screw up your courage it's easy to get killed yourself.

Hope this helps.
Cat

Then there is the percentage that are just waiting for a SHTF so they can shoot a stranger, their auto mechanic, their x-brother in law, and the annoying woman down the hall.:shocked:

Warp
07-02-2012, 20:55
I never put all that much importance on a rifle. I've been around here since I joined the board in '05. I've covered the absolute basics pretty well, I think. The only rifle I had, for several years, was an SKS I bought for $130 back in about 2006. Hardly ever shot it, though.

I'm just now getting around to proper rifles, and some instruction in shooting them, this year.

A quality, reliable, durable handgun I can shoot proficiently and conceal on my person is, to me, 1,000x more important than any rifle. As such I invested in multiples of those before seriously considering $$$ on a rifle. I did get a Remington 870 right away, though. And a Ruger 10/22.

As you can probably tell, IMO the answer to this...

is my 12 gauge and handgun combo suffecient enough for any or atleast most situations?

...is yes.

Catshooter
07-02-2012, 21:53
A quality, reliable, durable handgun I can shoot proficiently and conceal on my person is, to me, 1,000x more important than any rifle. As such I invested in multiples of those before seriously considering $$$ on a rifle. I did get a Remington 870 right away, though. And a Ruger 10/22.

As you can probably tell, IMO the answer to this...



...is yes.

This man makes a very good point. Multiple of the same handgun is a very good idea. If you do end up with a wife/family, what are you going to give her if the SHTF?

What do you do it your one handgun breaks? Gets lost?

The beauty of a handgun is that it can be with you always. And always is very important. Always is the only way to know that you'll be armed if you ever need to be.


Cat

Calhoun123
07-03-2012, 05:15
You have 95% of realistic situations covered with a handgun and shotgun. You could up that a couple of points with just adding a .22 rifle like a 10/22. You can get to 99% by adding ANY centerfire rifle. You can get to 100% with an AR or AK.

kirgi08
07-03-2012, 07:51
Rifle first,shotgun 2nd.A shotgun is a multiple use weapon/w barrels.Whereas a rifle will reach out farther and not need all the options.A 91/30 a M/44 or a Turkish mauser milsurp ammo is cheap and packs a punch.A 12ga has the same hitting power at less range.'08.

wjv
07-03-2012, 11:08
If you do end up with a wife/family, what are you going to give her if the SHTF?

Wife is NOT a shooter so. .

.22 semi-auto rifle.

About the easiest gun for a newbie to use and still hit something out to 35 yards or so.

Romba1182
07-03-2012, 11:29
Not sure if it's been said yet, but you could get a mosin nagant for a little over $100 and some surplus ammo for like $4/20 rounds.


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maustypsu
07-03-2012, 11:58
No you do NOT need a rifle. Great to have. But if I had a shotgun and a handgun and less than 3-6 months worth of food, I would stop collecting guns there. Those two are going to protect you from most situations. Having another gun and nothing to protect isn't sound advice.

That said, if you have 1+ years worth of food, water filtration, and other safety/health and a means of future production all lined up... then I would work toward getting a decent SKS with a few 30 round mags and practice. Insert your own rifle choice there.

Bilbo Bagins
07-03-2012, 13:55
Your #1 priority weapon for prepping is a HANDGUN.

Read some of FerFal work and some preppers that were involved with Katrina. To have a firearm that you can carry around on your person, and that can be concealed is you #1 need.

A shotgun is nice to have for home defense. So is an AR but you need training.

However you start to get into that Survival fantasy land when people start talking about long range shooting and . 308 Main Battle Rifles and being decked out with 30lb of ammo strapped to your chest.

Unless we go full Mad Max, you are NOT going to be Sniping people at +200 yards. Shooting people long range in a SHTF you better have a damn good reason when Law Enforcement is restored.

Some people in the Prepping community get uber tactical, and in my opinion are a little too paranoid about life going bad.

I will say this, I own an AR, but I like shooting it. If you don't enjoy shooting rifles or hunting, I would not waste your money on an AR or AK.

I Shooter
07-03-2012, 14:10
Most people from my part of the country use a shotgun and rifle before they ever see a hand gun. A shotgun gets you rabbits, squirrels and birds. Using slugs can get you a deer. A rifle starts where the shotgun stops. Out past one hundred yards is where you need the rifle. You can pick up a H&R 243 with a scope for around 250 new. A used one for less than 200. I am not saying this is top of the line equipment, it is able to do what most preppers want and that is to put food on the table. As with most things the shotgun and rifle can help you defend you and your's. Do you need a rifle? No. If every thing went wrong would it be nice to have one? Yes. If someone shoots at you from 200yards it would be nice to have some thing to shoot back with.

RWBlue
07-03-2012, 15:19
A Fistful of Dollars. "When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man"

maustypsu
07-03-2012, 16:09
A Fistful of Dollars. "When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man"

Of course that quote was said by a soon to be dead man who had a rifle and was killed by a man with a .45. :rofl:

AK_Stick
07-03-2012, 16:18
Shotguns are a useful tool. But I don't think it could ever replace a rifle.


They're great for home defense, and ok for putting meat on the table, but their big plus is versatility. They don't do a whole lot great, but they can be made to do a little bit of everything well.

A 22 rifle is a better meat getter, and any of the big auto loading rifles are better defense weapons.

actionshooter10
07-03-2012, 16:32
Do I really need a rifle? My bug out firearm is my handgun, but I brought a Rem 870 12 gauge for if things really get bad now everyone tells me I need a rifle. Look I'm just a civilian trying to be prepared, I'm not looking to be a one man army because I know that's a good way to get myself killed, I'm not thinking about zombie invasions... Ok maybe I do think about zombie invasions lol... I just want to be prepared to feed, hydrate and protect myself and my family if I ever have one. So what is it guys? Do I need to drop the money on the rifle, training, ammo and accesories or is my 12 gauge and handgun combo suffecient enough for any or atleast most situations?

I need some help so I'll take anyone's opinion no matter what you say. I just want to know if I'm not doing enough for my protection and survival when it comes to firearms.

If you are willing to commit to training and practicing what you train, get the rifle. If you are not, don't waste the money.

My holstered sidearm exists to enable me to get to a rifle and engage/eliminate the threat if it still exists.

A handgun is a defensive tool. A rifle is an offensive tool. You always need to be on offense in a gunfight.

The advice is worth what you pay for it.

RWBlue
07-03-2012, 19:02
Of course that quote was said by a soon to be dead man who had a rifle and was killed by a man with a .45. :rofl:

Actually,
The quote (paraphrase) is an old Mexican proverb.
And is said in a movie by a dumb character who was killed by a man with a .45.
Lets face it, if you shoot someone in the chest a couple times and they don't fall down, shoot them in the head.

UneasyRider
07-03-2012, 19:26
If you are willing to commit to training and practicing what you train, get the rifle. If you are not, don't waste the money.

My holstered sidearm exists to enable me to get to a rifle and engage/eliminate the threat if it still exists.

A handgun is a defensive tool. A rifle is an offensive tool. You always need to be on offense in a gunfight.

The advice is worth what you pay for it.

The quality of your post is only equalled by the quality of your avatar.

maustypsu
07-03-2012, 19:40
Actually,
The quote (paraphrase) is an old Mexican proverb.
And is said in a movie by a dumb character who was killed by a man with a .45.
Lets face it, if you shoot someone in the chest a couple times and they don't fall down, shoot them in the head.

Lol. Yeah, definitely shoot for the head. Especially if you can shoot the shape of a heart on a suite of armor from the hip!!!

PS looking for a 300 win mag barrel for that encore?


Also, do love avatar, actionshooter. I guess I agree that you always want to be on the offense in a gun fight. But hopefully with a pistol or shotgun we can avoid the fight most of the time. I think that is what you were saying when referring to defensive weapons.
Offense is tough to justify.

Contact
07-03-2012, 20:47
I will echo what some of the others have said, in that you only need one if you feel you need one. Don't let anyone tell you that you need one because they feel you need one.

Personally, I bought a Marlin Lever action rifle just because I didn't have any rifles at the time, and for no other reason than I wanted to add one to my collection, and I picked a lever action because they looked the most fun to shoot. After buying it, I realized what a good addition it would be if I ever NEEDED to hunt for food, or if I needed to ensure the perimeter of my home is safe.

However, since my home has a full basement, if anything were to go down, we would likely be hunkered down in the basement with a few pistols, my shotgun and my AR (which I bought after the lever action).

The important thing to realize is that every gun serves its own nitch, for an individual person with an individual situation. Since I have a bit of property to keep secure, a rifle suits my S&P needs, but if I lived in a high rise apartment building, a long range rifle may not help my cause.

With that said, whether or not you need one is your own personal choice, but if you have the extra cash flow, it would definitely give you some more options. Since you can't plan for every scenario, being prepared would include being ready for things you don't necessarily see being a need right now. As the old saying goes, better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

coleslaw
07-04-2012, 08:24
coleslaw,

You're probably good to go.

But here's one more veiwpoint to further confuse you: before a rifle, before a shotgun, even before a pistol and training, you need to deceide for sure that you're willing to shoot someone. Not just some faceless stranger, to make it personal, make it more real, how about your auto mechanic? Your ex-brother in law? The woman down the hall from you?

Many have the tools, even the training. But the percentage of those who are willing to kill someone standing in front of them is much smaller. And while you're standing there hesitating, dithering, trying to screw up your courage it's easy to get killed yourself.

Hope this helps.


Cat


I have thought about this. I will run away from any fight that I can before I result to deadly force, I don't want to take anyone's life, I just want to protect my own. This is why I added the shotgun to my prep, I figured with non lethal loads like sandbags I can keep threats away far enough to escape if I need too. I even heard that black cloud can be use as a non lethal defensive load.

coleslaw
07-04-2012, 08:29
You can take tactical training with the shotgun to shoot out to 100 yds. But is that practical? It boils down to, do you have enough ammo put aside for the SG and pistol? Can you shoot well with each, and finally, do you have the money to pay for the extra practice time needed for you to become proficient with the rifle? Also, where do you live, urban or in the country?

The best answer is what you believe is best for you. Everyone has an opnion on this subject but the only one that matters is yours.

I live in a suburban area but the city is only about 20 minutes driving distance away. I am hoping on the Gov't and military to set up some kind of FOB and my whole SHTF plan revolves around getting to a help center/base... Red Cross, Military whatever. I figure if the sh## is so bad that the Military and Gov't is non effective and or non existent than I better get my dune buggy out and head to the Thunderdome. Lol But in all seriousness as silly as it sounds, because of the negative stigma on the Gov't today, I am hoping that in the case of a emergency I can make my way to some kind of FOB. My firearms are going to be my help getting there.

coleslaw
07-04-2012, 08:32
Do you need a rifle...

It's cold... really cold. It's been months following a SHTF event and you and your family have not had a real protein meal in a long time... You don't happen to have some kind of fancy load that makes a shotgun very effective beyond 100 yards... the world is a different place and (as well as people) animals are keeping there distance... and all of a sudden your lucky enough to see a deer (or fox, or coyote, or even a dog) some 300 yards off in the distance...

You need a rifle?

If you bought one, learned how to use it well -- I think it would be nice at that moment. But that's me. :whistling:

I don't fool myself when it comes to this. I'm not "Joe Hunter". I'm not saying that you are fooling yourself, if you can do that then great but I know for a fact I don't know the first thing about procuring food for myself. Thats why my cabinents and pantry is stocked with non perishables.

Warp
07-04-2012, 13:58
A Fistful of Dollars. "When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man"

When that rifle is in the car, or at home, or slung across the back while the pistol is in a holster on the hip...my money is on the pistol every time. That seems to be a more real world, realistic possibility. Other than the slung across the back part, the rifle being at home or in the car seems far more likely.

TactiCool
07-05-2012, 14:22
I live in a suburban area but the city is only about 20 minutes driving distance away. I am hoping on the Gov't and military to set up some kind of FOB and my whole SHTF plan revolves around getting to a help center/base... Red Cross, Military whatever. I figure if the sh## is so bad that the Military and Gov't is non effective and or non existent than I better get my dune buggy out and head to the Thunderdome. Lol But in all seriousness as silly as it sounds, because of the negative stigma on the Gov't today, I am hoping that in the case of a emergency I can make my way to some kind of FOB. My firearms are going to be my help getting there.

Bad idea. The LEO's/military/FEMA would not let you keep your gun in WROL. Sorry, but that's how it happened in N.O. during Katrina, and I even saw it happen on the northshore too. If things were really bad, they might even open up on you if they saw you in the streets with a gun. Just my $.02

For what it's worth, I don't own any shotguns, but I do have 4 rifles. :supergrin:

coleslaw
07-05-2012, 15:00
Bad idea. The LEO's/military/FEMA would not let you keep your gun in WROL. Sorry, but that's how it happened in N.O. during Katrina, and I even saw it happen on the northshore too. If things were really bad, they might even open up on you if they saw you in the streets with a gun. Just my $.02

For what it's worth, I don't own any shotguns, but I do have 4 rifles. :supergrin:

I know they would take my firearms but that's something that I have thought about and losing my gun for food, water and shelter in a emergency is a risk I'm willing to take... As far as the military opening fire on me because I have a gun in plain view let me just say this... 1). That's why I would rather take my concealeable handgun in a Bug out situation than any non concealeable gun and 2). If the situation is that bad that I had to take my trusty 870 or a rifle then I don't plan on being in places where I can be seen and even though this may be naive I think the sh** has to be really bad almost post apocalyptic and military/Gov't has to be non existent for me to be justified as a civilian using a rifle for self defense. That's just my opinion, don't think anyone should follow my logic it's just what I think.

With this reply I guess I answered my own question. For me personally a rifle isn't a neccesity for my prep. I know I'm giving up long range power, capacity, firepower essentially a battlefield game changer but with all my options weighed I feel adequate with my handguns and shotgun.

countrygun
07-05-2012, 15:24
With a pistol and a shotgun you can survive anything, except the things you can't.

Many people have amny needs most of the needs like the people, are individual and unique. The circumstances, if needed, will probably be different for all of us.

I long ago moved to the country and have acerage. There are many reasons I need a rifle. As much as the wife and I both like shotguns within their limitations we also appreciate them BECAUSE of their limitations. For instance we can shoot a fox or other critter in the garden without endangering any livestock 200 yds downrange in "the north-forty". But if it were a "bad guy" behind cover out there I might want to be able to penetrate that cover. Funny thing but in "shootouts" especially if someone is trying to take what you have, they tend to use cover.

Since I do have the ablility to use a rifle at considerable distance I would feel handicapped without one. In an "emergency, crisis, whatever" I want my sphere of influence to be as large as possible.

Sorry to all those who lose sleep worrying about "collateral damage" in a gunfight, but if SHTF and there is a bad guy behind cover @ 50 yds I want to be able to penetrate that cover. If there is a needed food animal, or a potentialy dangerous one,@ 200+ yds, I want to be able to drop it with one shot.

TactiCool
07-05-2012, 15:28
I know they would take my firearms but that's something that I have thought about and losing my gun for food, water and shelter in a emergency is a risk I'm willing to take... As far as the military opening fire on me because I have a gun in plain view let me just say this... 1). That's why I would rather take my concealeable handgun in a Bug out situation than any non concealeable gun and 2). If the situation is that bad that I had to take my trusty 870 or a rifle then I don't plan on being in places where I can be seen and even though this may be naive I think the sh** has to be really bad almost post apocalyptic and military/Gov't has to be non existent for me to be justified as a civilian using a rifle for self defense. That's just my opinion, don't think anyone should follow my logic it's just what I think.

With this reply I guess I answered my own question. For me personally a rifle isn't a neccesity for my prep. I know I'm giving up long range power, capacity, firepower essentially a battlefield game changer but with all my options weighed I feel adequate with my handguns and shotgun.

I understand that you may be averse to owning a rifle, but I do feel that there are a number of practical benefits to owning one, many of which have already been mentioned. Of course, I live in a rural area, so I understand how one may feel that it is not suitable for an urban environment.

However, in a scenario where a pistol was my only available firearm, I would want, at minimum, a full-sized service pistol with double stack, high cap mags like a G20,21,17,22, etc.

coleslaw
07-05-2012, 16:40
I understand that you may be averse to owning a rifle, but I do feel that there are a number of practical benefits to owning one, many of which have already been mentioned. Of course, I live in a rural area, so I understand how one may feel that it is not suitable for an urban environment.

However, in a scenario where a pistol was my only available firearm, I would want, at minimum, a full-sized service pistol with double stack, high cap mags like a G20,21,17,22, etc.

Yea I have a USP 9mm full size with 18 round mags. Maybe I'll look into a .22 rifle.

pmwglock19
07-06-2012, 07:32
I believe the need to have enough ammo of owned guns is more important than the total of owned guns. Remember, a gun with no ammo is just a club.

In a long term SHTF scenario, having more ammo stockpiled is a a necessity because of the lack of getting resupplied.

kirgi08
07-06-2012, 11:15
Parts also.'08.

Haldor
07-06-2012, 12:28
Didn't drillings pass from from fashion about a hundred years ago? I'm not being facetious, but does anyone make a production, field grade drilling these days? If so, how well do they work under dirty field conditions? The whole concept is intriguing, to be sure; but they seem too fragile to me.

Look up Savage 24. No longer in production, but these are modern, relatively inexpensive rifle/shotgun combos. I really like my 24C and it packs nicely into a back-pack for unobtrusive carry in a SHTF situation.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/HaldorPhil/Guns/IMG_0983.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/HaldorPhil/Guns/IMG_0984.jpg

panzer1
07-06-2012, 12:33
Sounds like somebody needs to go buy a mosin nagant...

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engineI would make that an SKS or AK . 200-300yards is most likely al you need.

panzer1
07-06-2012, 12:58
Many troops were stalled by Japanese and German snipers w/bolt actions. Concealment and accuracy was a combo well mastered by all soldiers. Fear was the a factor that stalled forward advance on battlefields, and rifles brought it on.
I also have shotgun/pistol combos, and a Mosin Nagant 91/30. At 100 meters you will be easily dispatched. Rounds are 7.62 x 54, not your Federal bulk pac .22s. Not an AR or AK, but heavy, ugly, steel and wood rifle. Worth a look at.Yep thats what I have my K98 Mauser'S(scoped) & my M76 for. In 8mm Mauser.

coleslaw
07-06-2012, 15:46
I would make that an SKS or AK . 200-300yards is most likely al you need.

I don't know much about rifles but can anyone that participated in this thread accurately shoot a AK 300 yards at a moving target or a threat that's shooting back at 300 yards? I'm not trying to be a smart a** but these are some really long distances we're talking about here, and I thought AK's and SKS' aren't as accurate as the AR. 300 yards is some serious distance. Anyone planning on reaching out this far and touching another person in a SHTF situation?

kirgi08
07-06-2012, 15:58
Depends on the shooter.'08.

RWBlue
07-06-2012, 16:58
Look up Savage 24. No longer in production, but these are modern, relatively inexpensive rifle/shotgun combos. I really like my 24C and it packs nicely into a back-pack for unobtrusive carry in a SHTF situation.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/HaldorPhil/Guns/IMG_0983.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh168/HaldorPhil/Guns/IMG_0984.jpg

Stop torturing me. I want one of those, but have not been able to find one in decent shape for a decent price.

Why doesn't someone make a 12ga over 45LC or 44mag?

countrygun
07-06-2012, 17:18
Must add to the Savage 24 .22/20 ga torture. This one with a custom Myrtlewood stock. and the .22 barrel and the 20 with slugs have the same POA/POI @ 35 yds

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/000_0008_2.jpg

TactiCool
07-06-2012, 17:45
I don't know much about rifles but can anyone that participated in this thread accurately shoot a AK 300 yards at a moving target or a threat that's shooting back at 300 yards? I'm not trying to be a smart a** but these are some really long distances we're talking about here, and I thought AK's and SKS' aren't as accurate as the AR. 300 yards is some serious distance. Anyone planning on reaching out this far and touching another person in a SHTF situation?

Now I don't regularly shoot at those distances, but with a full mag of good ammo, I AM going to hit something.

But for kicks, I just went out to my backyard range and used an improvised target at 80 M to see how well I could shoot unsupported. Needless to say, the target did not make it.:supergrin:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1607&pictureid=5841

Now do keep in mind that the trajectory of 7.62x39 will remain pretty flat until about 250 M so altering POA isn't necessary until you go over 300 M, in my personal experience.

RWBlue
07-06-2012, 18:42
Must add to the Savage 24 .22/20 ga torture. This one with a custom Myrtlewood stock. and the .22 barrel and the 20 with slugs have the same POA/POI @ 35 yds

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/000_0008_2.jpg

Although not what I am looking for.......

You just have to rub salt in the wound.:crying:

beatcop
07-06-2012, 18:57
There are degrees to survival. Some want to prepare to be an infantryman, while others Daniel Boone.

If you're surviving in a semi-urban area and think you'll likely have issues with two legged animals, a hi-cap pistol and carbine may do it (G-17 & Sub 2000 & some 30rnd mags). Others may want to step up their game and stock two calibers (or more) and go with an AR/AK.

If you want to gather food, grab a 10/22.

A lot of it is more lifestyle than prep...if you're really not shooting what you have now, your prob all set. Invest in cans of pepper spray, food, lights, genny, etc.

enbloc
07-06-2012, 19:39
I have thought about this. I will run away from any fight that I can before I result to deadly force, I don't want to take anyone's life, I just want to protect my own. This is why I added the shotgun to my prep, I figured with non lethal loads like sandbags I can keep threats away far enough to escape if I need too. I even heard that black cloud can be use as a non lethal defensive load.


Sorry coleslaw, but you're toast.
You are already thinking like a victim.
Think like the victor...

RWBlue
07-06-2012, 19:48
There are degrees to survival. Some want to prepare to be an infantryman, while others Daniel Boone.

If you're surviving in a semi-urban area and think you'll likely have issues with two legged animals, a hi-cap pistol and carbine may do it (G-17 & Sub 2000 & some 30rnd mags). Others may want to step up their game and stock two calibers (or more) and go with an AR/AK.

If you want to gather food, grab a combo gun.

A lot of it is more lifestyle than prep...if you're really not shooting what you have now, your prob all set. Invest in cans of pepper spray, food, lights, genny, etc.

I fixed it for you. The combo gun is the food getting when you need meat for the pot. A 10-22 is ok for small game, but not birds and not enough gun for bear, moose, elk, deer .....at longer ranges.

Warp
07-06-2012, 22:10
I believe the need to have enough ammo of owned guns is more important than the total of owned guns. Remember, a gun with no ammo is just a club.

In a long term SHTF scenario, having more ammo stockpiled is a a necessity because of the lack of getting resupplied.

The question is...how much ammo? How long is long term? What will you be doing with that ammo during the long term?

beatcop
07-07-2012, 07:09
I fixed it for you. The combo gun is the food getting when you need meat for the pot. A 10-22 is ok for small game, but not birds and not enough gun for bear, moose, elk, deer .....at longer ranges.

Yes...the terrain really varies in the USA. Up in N East, small game/deer, 50 yard shots in the woods 80% of the time...a little long stuff. With the population density, the smallest noise when harvesting is a consideration.

Cali-Glock
07-08-2012, 01:51
I love rifles and pistols, but nothing beats a shotgun for versatility as a S&P weapon.

While this is an over-simplification you can run bird shot, buck shot or slugs through the same gun. Amazing versatility.

With the right shotgun, ammo and practice you can own everything within 100 yards, be it game, fowl or human threats.

My go-to gun is a Mossberg 590A1 with Ghost Ring sights, though you may favor another shotgun and more power to you - there are many quality shotguns out there to choose from.

Warp
07-08-2012, 12:25
I love rifles and pistols, but nothing beats a shotgun for versatility as a S&P weapon.

While this is an over-simplification you can run bird shot, buck shot or slugs through the same gun. Amazing versatility.

With the right shotgun, ammo and practice you can own everything within 100 yards, be it game, fowl or human threats.

My go-to gun is a Mossberg 590A1 with Ghost Ring sights, though you may favor another shotgun and more power to you - there are many quality shotguns out there to choose from.

Unless there is an opposing individual with a rifle inside of that 100 yards. Or outside of that 100 yards yards.

BR549
07-08-2012, 14:24
A 10-22 is ok for small game, but not birds

??? While most migratory bird season regulations require the birds to be taken in flight, do you think birds cannot be taken with a 22LR?...at least while not in flight..if circumstances allow?

Stevekozak
07-08-2012, 15:19
??? While most migratory bird season regulations require the birds to be taken in flight, do you think birds cannot be taken with a 22LR?...at least while not in flight..if circumstances allow?
I was curious about that myself.

TheLastBoyscout
07-08-2012, 17:23
I have not read this whole thread nor do I intend to. Just throwing out another point of view. Not sure what kind of pistol the OP has but with just a little practice on what the sight picture looks like you can make hits at 200 yards with a pistol. I do it all the time with a .45ACP, 10mm and .357 magnum. This is on a 18 x 12" steel plate. Just takes a little practice is all.

pugman
07-08-2012, 17:32
The simple answer is yes.

THEN all the people will come out with you need an AR...you need an AK....you can get away with a simple .308 Bolt action rifle. Its not the "Do I need" question which is difficult to answer but the "what" you should get which takes time to settle for you.

pmwglock19
07-08-2012, 17:32
Warp, the answer to that question would be how much do you feel you need and can afford. For some people they think they need tens of thousands others might be less.

countrygun
07-08-2012, 17:36
I fixed it for you. The combo gun is the food getting when you need meat for the pot. A 10-22 is ok for small game, but not birds and not enough gun for bear, moose, elk, deer .....at longer ranges.

To jump on the bandwagon. Depending on a shotgun for shooting birds in a survival situation is daft. I have my 20/.22 and it is handy during hunting season or around the place but in a survival situation I can shoot a lot of birds while they are stationary with a single shotgun shell's weight and bulk. In fact I took a "hunting lunch" of blue grouse that way last season. It is legal in Oregon to do so.

brisk21
07-08-2012, 21:04
No, you don't "need" a rifle to survive. Your not going to be getting into 100+ yard shootouts with some enemy that wants your canned beans. A shotgun and pistol are plenty of firepower to defend yourself and your family. That being said, if anything "big" ever happens, like if **** really does hit the fan, I'll be glad I have my Colt AR-15, thats for sure!!

minnshooter
07-08-2012, 21:54
??? While most migratory bird season regulations require the birds to be taken in flight, do you think birds cannot be taken with a 22LR?...at least while not in flight..if circumstances allow?

If memory serves me right, here in MN it is legal to shoot upland game birds with a .22lr.

Haldor
07-09-2012, 06:44
Must add to the Savage 24 .22/20 ga torture. This one with a custom Myrtlewood stock. and the .22 barrel and the 20 with slugs have the same POA/POI @ 35 yds

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/000_0008_2.jpg

Love that stock.

My 24C has a paint finish, so I don't think fancy wood stocks would really work that well with it, but I really like the looks of yours. Wanna Trade? :rofl:

BR549
07-09-2012, 07:03
If memory serves me right, here in MN it is legal to shoot upland game birds with a .22lr.

Blue indicated that a 10-22 was not okay for birds, hence I responded with the rhetorical question. :wavey:

DrSticky
07-09-2012, 14:54
Here are a few things to consider.

1. You can survive anything without any guns. The odds of doing so vary by situation from the very low to the very high, but you can. "Tunnel in the Sky" by Robert Heinlein comes to mind. I am an "up my odds" kind of guy, but that is me. So the logic follows, you might be able to survive with the wrong guns especially if you know the limits of the weapon and yourself. A missed 100m shotgun shot, also makes an excellent warning shot.

2. Guns are a tool. What tool is needed varies by the situation that you are presented with. While you can screw in a Phillips with a standard screw driver, you aren't going to be as fast or efficient as the guy with the right tool.

3. The situation is key. A mugging and TEOTWAKI have different needs. People who live on the plains and people who live in urban environments have different needs. What do the people around you have? Neighbors, Friends, Local Thugs.

With all of this being said, I think a rifle is indispensable. Shotguns can do things with the right choke or the right ammo or the right barrel, if they are ready when you need them. I wouldn't trust #9 shot to stop a car or a 9mm pistol to shoot through walls. While stopping a car is possible with a slug or maybe buckshot, I wouldn't be standing in the road within 100m of a car speeding my direction.

Stevekozak
07-09-2012, 15:01
Here are a few things to consider.

1. You can survive anything without any guns. The odds of doing so vary by situation from the very low to the very high, but you can. "Tunnel in the Sky" by Robert Heinlein comes to mind. I am an "up my odds" kind of guy, but that is me. So the logic follows, you might be able to survive with the wrong guns especially if you know the limits of the weapon and yourself. A missed 100m shotgun shot, also makes an excellent warning shot.

2. Guns are a tool. What tool is needed varies by the situation that you are presented with. While you can screw in a Phillips with a standard screw driver, you aren't going to be as fast or efficient as the guy with the right tool.

3. The situation is key. A mugging and TEOTWAKI have different needs. People who live on the plains and people who live in urban environments have different needs. What do the people around you have? Neighbors, Friends, Local Thugs.

With all of this being said, I think a rifle is indispensable. Shotguns can do things with the right choke or the right ammo or the right barrel, if they are ready when you need them. I wouldn't trust #9 shot to stop a car or a 9mm pistol to shoot through walls. While stopping a car is possible with a slug or maybe buckshot, I wouldn't be standing in the road within 100m of a car speeding my direction.
This is a good response.

MrGlock21
07-09-2012, 21:51
The very first firearms I got when coming to America where a Glock and a lightweight 308 bolt action rifle. That tells you what I think of rifles.