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robhic
06-30-2012, 13:37
I'd like to expand on the thread (below) HD Scenario where the poster related a story of investigating a noise and coming face-to-face with the police! I posted this somewhere else and didn't get any really useful information.

I had read in a few blog-posts about SWAT-TING where someone makes a false / malicious 911 call to get back at someone and says he's just murdered his wife (or something else) and a SWAT team goes to the home expecting to find a murder scene.

Of course, the homeowner is unaware this has been done and is caught completely unaware when a bunch of cops come through his door yelling "POLICE!". My question is how would others react?

You are in your home and hear activity. You start to respond with a gun when some cops come through yelling police. What would you do?

It might be someone pretending to be the police or it might really be the police. Who is to know? What would others response be?

I'd especially like to hear from the LEOs on this forum as to a good procedure that would keep you from shooting or getting shot in this malicious situation. Thanks for any input!

Sharky7
06-30-2012, 13:50
Police will only enter upon "exigent" or "emergency" circumstances from the types of calls you are describing.

An anonymous phone call like that will generally not rise to the level of immediate warrantless entry. But, if the call originated from the home and a struggle could be heard in the background - police show up and see furniture moved around and blood all over the floor, they will enter.

The home is treated with the greatest protection under search and seizure laws.

robhic
06-30-2012, 15:39
Thank you for that response. What originally got my attention was the "Swat-ting" thing. Apparently someone 'spoofed' the phone number and maliciously made a 911 call. It was written about in a few blogs I read within the last 2 weeks or so.

The guy making the spoofed calls had much anymosity against the person he pretended to be. The unaware victim (and his family) were in the house when SWAT team came through his door.

It made me think how to respond? Is it cops or someone pretending to be cops and you do not know for sure. You respond to a break-in and might shoot a cop. You don't respond and YOU get shot. Seems like a no-win situation, regardless. I just hope I don't know anyone angry enough with me to do this! :wow: Look up "swat-ting" for examples of folks having this done to them.

One was Erik Ericcson who writes the "Red State" blog.

Misty02
07-01-2012, 07:00
Hopefully in those cases you get to see the marked units outside and react appropriately to what is taking place. You can object verbally but follow every command, the important thing is to survive the encounter, youíll get to complain all you want after the fact when it is safe to do so.

There have been too many cases of police impersonators that have gained entrance to the home forcibly to trust just a uniform. Although, not all those screaming ďPoliceĒ as they broke in have even bothered to at least get the right looking polo shirts, pants and enough gear to pull it off. To my knowledge none have arrived in marked vehicles, so Iím considering that (for now) to be the deciding factor as to whether we believe they are real or not.

If they are the real thing the odds of survival after shooting one are rather slim. If theyíre not but they are armed and have good tactics, odds are you could get shot as well, even if you have practiced for possible home invasions. It is really a no win situation that hopefully the person affected gets to live though.

Learn and teach others in your home some basic first aid, it may prolong your life long enough for help to get there. Unlike the police, the crooks wonít be calling for medical assistance.

.

robhic
07-01-2012, 10:16
There have been too many cases of police impersonators that have gained entrance to the home forcibly to trust just a uniform. Although, not all those screaming ďPoliceĒ as they broke in have even bothered to at least get the right looking polo shirts, pants and enough gear to pull it off. To my knowledge none have arrived in marked vehicles, so Iím considering that (for now) to be the deciding factor as to whether we believe they are real or not..

This is the part that concerns me. An imposter coming into / breaking into a home yelling "POLICE"! I agree about the marked units but in the event you couldn't see the cars beforehand you'd really be in a bad situation! (To say the least...)

I think I over think some things, but the articles I read about the recent "SWAT-TING" incidents really got my attention that, in reality, this type thing does happen.:shocked:

Misty02
07-01-2012, 10:54
Iím often accused of over thinking things as well. However, in most cases that over thinking allows me to develop some basic plans, before hand, to hopefully minimize the possibility of things going terribly wrong.

With surveillance cameras covering most of the outside of the house, some of that is mitigated. Nonetheless, in the middle of the night if they were to burst through a door and we have no chance to go check the camera or video feed for seconds prior, we would be at the same place as someone with no other precautions in place.

It is anything but a comforting thought, assuming a possible home invasion in our home I can pretty much guess the most likely point of entry, our bedroom is the closest sleeping quarter to it. Iím also the person that once awakened is instantaneously alert, thus the most likely to quickly attempt to check that others at the other end of the house are ok. Weíve tried to work on this attempting to be cautiously reactive without blindly and recklessly running into the unknown, but it has yet to be tested with a real situation. The odds arenít good, likely someone will get shot and I could be the first or second person that would. Uniforms and gear that appear real might make me hesitate long enough to pose a risk, if I donít maintain proper concealment during my period of assessment. So far home invasion plans donít account for law enforcement doing the break-in. I really donít have that kind of situation developed enough in my mind or in our planning to yield favorable results all around.

Let's just pray we never have a need to find out and that nothing remotely similar happens.


.

Radam3
07-01-2012, 11:01
You respond to a break-in and might shoot a cop. You don't respond and YOU get shot.



KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT!!!
You don't shoot at movement!

If the situation were exactly how you described... Say you were in bed when all of this went down. Grab your bedside gun, clear your way through the house to the commotion, once you reach the officers, IMMEDIATELY lower your weapon and comply with their EVERY order!!!

Misty02
07-01-2012, 11:07
KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT!!!
You don't shoot at movement!

If the situation were exactly how you described... Say you were in bed when all of this went down. Grab your bedside gun, clear your way through the house to the commotion, once you reach the officers, IMMEDIATELY lower your weapon and comply with their EVERY order!!!

I believe youíre missing part of what robhic is trying to state (but I could be wrong). We wouldnít knowingly fire at a law enforcement officer. The issue at hand is knowing for certain whether the person that broke-in is one or not.


.

beatcop
07-01-2012, 11:16
The pretend cop invasion is possible, but not very probable. The guys that go out on the porch in their t-shirt & undies w/pistol are making tactical mistakes at all levels.

-get a driveway chime
-look out the window when it chirps
-call 911 if you see a stack outside your house. Every time we're kicking a door, dispatch is advised. If you call up they will instruct you what to do and likely tell the LE to hold up.
-if the call is that serious, dispatch will try reverse 911 damn near every time to speak with you and "sort" some things out.
-call 911 first, either way a scenario plays out at least there will be a response if it is a "fake" entry

greyhoundafw
07-01-2012, 11:24
Don't know about other locations, but LEO's around here don't park in front of the location they are responding to. Usually up the street or a couple houses up. Not easy to see a marked car.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Misty02
07-01-2012, 11:45
The pretend cop invasion is possible, but not very probable. The guys that go out on the porch in their t-shirt & undies w/pistol are making tactical mistakes at all levels.

-get a driveway chime
-look out the window when it chirps
-call 911 if you see a stack outside your house. Every time we're kicking a door, dispatch is advised. If you call up they will instruct you what to do and likely tell the LE to hold up.
-if the call is that serious, dispatch will try reverse 911 damn near every time to speak with you and "sort" some things out.
-call 911 first, either way a scenario plays out at least there will be a response if it is a "fake" entry

Our driveways are usually occupied at night. We have a corner home with 1/3 acre of land; there is vast area to park a vehicle between the fence and the sidewalk (within our property), just as much between the sidewalk and the road. I do like the driveway chime (which I hadnít heard of before) for my parents though, thanks for the tip. :)

My grandson is assigned to call 911, hide and keep an open line to 911 should anything ever happen here. He is not to come out, regardless of what he hears, even if we call him by name. He knows what he needs to hear from one of us before he knows it is safe. Depending on the circumstances one of us will also be on the phone to 911.

There have been enough of the LEO imposters gaining entrance into peopleís home by either force or deception for it to be a cause of concern. I may be wrong, but I believe the probability of that occurring (although low) is higher than real police officers breaking down our doors.

There is no way anyone in our house is going outside to investigate diddly squat. If they do, assuming they live the encounter, theyíll have me to deal with (and that will last a very LONG time). If the lights get activated and something suspicious is seen in the cameras, then we call 911 and follow their movements with the camera until police arrival.

It is not a fail proof plan, but it is the best we have so far. Our contingency plan after a hurricane and no power is substantially less favorable and secure.

.

Misty02
07-01-2012, 11:57
Don't know about other locations, but LEO's around here don't park in front of the location they are responding to. Usually up the street or a couple houses up. Not easy to see a marked car.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

The ones responding to a burglary at a neighborís home left some serious tire marks on the grass (that piece of grass was removed) in front of their house; they didnít cross the sidewalk into their property though.

Iíve never asked the question before. No doubt different circumstances would dictate different procedures, but I'll ask nonetheless.

.

beatcop
07-01-2012, 14:38
When "imposters" break in it's usually due to:

-Your job at the $$$$ store
-You are dealing

Bruce M
07-01-2012, 15:23
When "imposters" break in it's usually due to:

-Your job at the $$$$ store
-You are dealing


Ohh I thought that was just around here :whistling:

Misty02
07-01-2012, 15:27
When "imposters" break in it's usually due to:

-Your job at the $$$$ store
-You are dealing

Is it possible that some of these people have neither?

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Cop-Impersonators-in-Southwest-Miami-Dade-Home-Invasion-160814285.html (http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Cop-Impersonators-in-Southwest-Miami-Dade-Home-Invasion-160814285.html)

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/04/26/police-impersonator-targets-the-elderly/ (http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/04/26/police-impersonator-targets-the-elderly/)

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Trio-Posing-As-Officers-Takes-Money-From-Woman/-/1637132/1934218/-/h0p10s/-/index.html (http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Trio-Posing-As-Officers-Takes-Money-From-Woman/-/1637132/1934218/-/h0p10s/-/index.html) In this one they at least had a picture of one of the police impersonators that forced the old lady to the ATM

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2011/03/police_impersonator_flashed_ba.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2011/03/police_impersonator_flashed_ba.html)

There are enough of these to flood this thread, unfortunately. There are even some involving rapes.

Here is a little more about police impersonators down here. Perhaps some fit the $$ or drugs description, I donít know.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/29/us/29fakecops.html?pagewanted=all


Since the unit was established in 2007, it has arrested or had encounters with more than 80 phony officers in Miami-Dade County, and the frequency has increased in recent months, said Lt. Daniel Villanueva, who heads the unit.

ďItís definitely a trend,Ē Lieutenant Villanueva said. ďThey use the guise of being a police officer to knock on a door, and the victim lowers their guard for just a second. At that point, itís too late.Ē