Lo$t in all this... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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G29Reload
07-02-2012, 08:23
One thing I have not heard mentioned in all this flurry of O-care news…

Most here seem against it, and that includes me. Our only hope is that Zero is fired, and the repeal is pushed thru.

Lets pretend however, that it isnt. Let's say, even for the sake of argument, that you're for O-care and for whatever reason, it stands.

Some facts on the ground: Thousands of new IRS agents. Enforcement thru the tax code. A tax on tanning salons. Medical equipment. Capital gains taxes in certain cases. Fines as a percentage of income.

All kinds of cash are vectored to the Federal Government from multiple sectors, entities and events, some due to people refusing to obtain health insurance, or other instances where taxes are remitted to the Government. Some people will get insurance on their own and not have to pay anything to the government.

Some of this money will be used to get healthcare to people. Or, should, but nevertheless will transit the Federal Leviathan.

Case in point: Some programs, ostensibly high minded and noble but in some way offensive because they're socialist in nature, such as Social Security actually seemed to work well on paper and were swallowed by most since there is at least supposed to be a payback at some point.

As we learned from the Johnson administration, the money ended up being used as a slush fund for other things like balancing the budget or paying for the Viet Nam war.

What prevents this influx of cash being vectored to the Federal Government from suffering the same fate? Is this or is this not just another pile of money that people like Chuck Schumer or any other intellectually dishonest congresscritter from saying, "hey, we got this huge pile of money here, and we're not spending it as fast it comes in (yet) so why don't we take some cash from this here pile and use it to pave that highway thru my district! My constituents will love it (I'll get re-elected)

There is no end to the problems this will cause. Ooops, now we're short of cash and there's this deficit so we'll just take money out of the healthcare fund to keep the country from going over the cliff, so who could be against that?

What prevents some future democrat from saying "hey, we don't have a deficit, total intake equals spending!" failing to note that will change when medical payments need to be made to providers.

JBnTX
07-02-2012, 08:27
You've nailed it!

It will be just another pile of money to be spent as the government sees fit.

...and then when there's a shortage of incoming healthcare money, they'll
raise taxes to collect more money to spend as they see fit.

...and then (once again) when there's another shortage of incoming healthcare money, they'll raise taxes again to collect even more money to spend as they see fit.

Then when the system is bankrupt, healthcare will be rationed and strictly controlled by the government.

They'll even start charging people for going to the hospital.
Imagine that!

..

jeanderson
07-02-2012, 08:28
What prevents some future democrat from saying "hey, we don't have a deficit, total intake equals spending!" failing to note that will change when medical payments need to be made to providers.

The real problem is future entitlements, which aren't even discussed anymore. As it stands now, if the federal government were to do accounting like they force every corporation, the deficit this year would be equal to 88% of everyone's income.

But, you're right. As soon as there is any current surplus at all, the politicians will spend it.

callihan_44
07-02-2012, 09:07
also not being discussed is obama dying to have the bush tax rates expire....that + healthcare tax= HUGE increase

GAFinch
07-02-2012, 09:43
This is why the state-level vs federal-level debate isn't just semantics - states have balanced budget laws. States certainly move around money among programs as well, particularly to suddenly defund school, police, and fire departments when asking for more money, but the numbers are far smaller and easier to track by fiscally responsible politicians and watchdog groups.

Don't forget the Catholic issue in all this as well. The free birth control and abortifacients clause kicks in August 1st, unless the 43 pending lawsuits prevail. The church may end up having to drop their employer health plans (self-insured) and force people to move over to taxpayer-funded federal plans. There's also the question of whether Catholic hospitals (12% of all hospitals) will remain open.

wjv
07-02-2012, 10:52
They will use that money for any {BLEEPING} thing they want. . .

G29Reload
07-02-2012, 13:11
yep, just another money toilet.

i can see now why the civil war was fought.

G29Reload
07-02-2012, 21:31
They will use that money for any {BLEEPING} thing they want. . .


yeah it will be for our own good, I'm sure...:upeyes:

Electrikkoolaid
07-02-2012, 22:02
How to prevent it?

Line-item veto.
Term-limits on congress.
Prohibition on "revolving door" between public/private employment.
Prohibiting earmarks.
Requiring all expenditures to be acknowledged by their sponsors, not hidden as anonymous riders.
Forcing media that takes payments from candidates (political ads) to clearly disclose that during any reporting they do on the candidate, as well as disclose how much each candidate has spent with that news organization.

http://sketchedout.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/flyingpigs.jpg

certifiedfunds
07-02-2012, 22:52
Yet another great example of why tax evaders are the modern patriots.

G29Reload
07-04-2012, 02:33
I can see barter or whatever is done to avoid paying taxes is a great thing.

We just got another Obama care shoved down our throat here in Loudoun County, VA. Against a huge showing of public opinion, the Loudoun County, VA board of Supervisors voted to fund the Dulles Rail extension. This is the new Silver line part of DC MetroRail.

Dubious funding, but its in the hundreds of millions of dollars and will no doubt end up pushing up property taxes. We're on the hook whereas it could have stopped at Dulles Airport.

Only thing I can do is sell and move farther out.

Toyman
07-04-2012, 06:35
Or like the income tax when it was first implemented and stated "never to exceed 10%".

First they require you to have insurance. Once locked into the system they require your plan to cover certain things, that raises the price. Soon, they'll need more money to cover the low income people on the Government insurance. Where do you think they'll get that money from?

G29Reload
07-04-2012, 11:05
There is no such thing as a tax ever created that wasn't raised over time.

hogship
07-04-2012, 11:16
As we speak, those who will control the money, are thinking up ways to divert it to their own pockets. Much of it will be transferred so many times that it will become untraceable..........Who here believes that isn't true?

ooc

countrygun
07-04-2012, 11:19
whats wrong with giving them scads more money, after all, they're from our Government, they're here to help us?

certifiedfunds
07-04-2012, 13:35
Obamacare will NEVER be repealed. The republicans don't even want it repealed. They'll grandstand and promise, dig deep for contributions, but they won't repeal.

Government doesn't give up power like this.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

G29Reload
07-04-2012, 16:43
I'm not hopeful, but there is a chance. They have to…it will cause systemic breakdown. There will be no bearing the weight and frankly if I was a doctor nearing retirement, I'd do so immediately and if I were a new college student, I would not be choosing medicine as a major. There is so much chaos in the bill that if it isnt' repealed the whole thing will come off the rails.

certifiedfunds
07-04-2012, 16:50
I'm not hopeful, but there is a chance. They have to…it will cause systemic breakdown. There will be no bearing the weight and frankly if I was a doctor nearing retirement, I'd do so immediately and if I were a new college student, I would not be choosing medicine as a major. There is so much chaos in the bill that if it isnt' repealed the whole thing will come off the rails.

The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

.....

G29Reload
07-04-2012, 19:12
.matrix speech....

Back to reality...

this is precisely the reason why it can be repealed.


There's something in it for Mittens. Political capital. Its going the opposite way of the way its been. I think there's a good chance for a small landslide, and zero will have the final answer on what everyone thinks of him and his legacy. A pink slip. Its simple math to go the opposite direction.

Cavalry Doc
07-05-2012, 04:37
Obamacare will NEVER be repealed. The republicans don't even want it repealed. They'll grandstand and promise, dig deep for contributions, but they won't repeal.

Government doesn't give up power like this.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

I'm afraid you are right. It may be changed, altered, made "better", but some form of .gov healthcare for the masses is now inevitable, in my opinion anyway. I guess it's possible a large asteroid could slam into the earth before 2014, wiping out all life in north America. One way or the other, brace for impact.

Roberts screwed us, our one chance to strike down governments ability to give individuals a direct order to buy a product is gone. The country lurched farther towards totalitarianism the moment these decisions were signed. It may not be the farthest lurch in that direction in my lifetime, but if there was a greater loss of the individual right to self determination in the last 45 years, I can't remember it at the moment.

There is no silver lining.

certifiedfunds
07-05-2012, 07:29
Back to reality...



This *IS* reality:

And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

certifiedfunds
07-05-2012, 07:31
I'm afraid you are right. It may be changed, altered, made "better", but some form of .gov healthcare for the masses is now inevitable, in my opinion anyway. I guess it's possible a large asteroid could slam into the earth before 2014, wiping out all life in north America. One way or the other, brace for impact.

Roberts screwed us, our one chance to strike down governments ability to give individuals a direct order to buy a product is gone. The country lurched farther towards totalitarianism the moment these decisions were signed. It may not be the farthest lurch in that direction in my lifetime, but if there was a greater loss of the individual right to self determination in the last 45 years, I can't remember it at the moment.

There is no silver lining.

We agree. There has been no repeal of social security or medicare. This is simply another one of those landmark shifts.

Ruble Noon
07-05-2012, 14:50
One thing I have not heard mentioned in all this flurry of O-care news…

Most here seem against it, and that includes me. Our only hope is that Zero is fired, and the repeal is pushed thru.

Lets pretend however, that it isnt. Let's say, even for the sake of argument, that you're for O-care and for whatever reason, it stands.

Some facts on the ground: Thousands of new IRS agents. Enforcement thru the tax code. A tax on tanning salons. Medical equipment. Capital gains taxes in certain cases. Fines as a percentage of income.

All kinds of cash are vectored to the Federal Government from multiple sectors, entities and events, some due to people refusing to obtain health insurance, or other instances where taxes are remitted to the Government. Some people will get insurance on their own and not have to pay anything to the government.

Some of this money will be used to get healthcare to people. Or, should, but nevertheless will transit the Federal Leviathan.

Case in point: Some programs, ostensibly high minded and noble but in some way offensive because they're socialist in nature, such as Social Security actually seemed to work well on paper and were swallowed by most since there is at least supposed to be a payback at some point.

As we learned from the Johnson administration, the money ended up being used as a slush fund for other things like balancing the budget or paying for the Viet Nam war.

What prevents this influx of cash being vectored to the Federal Government from suffering the same fate? Is this or is this not just another pile of money that people like Chuck Schumer or any other intellectually dishonest congresscritter from saying, "hey, we got this huge pile of money here, and we're not spending it as fast it comes in (yet) so why don't we take some cash from this here pile and use it to pave that highway thru my district! My constituents will love it (I'll get re-elected)

There is no end to the problems this will cause. Ooops, now we're short of cash and there's this deficit so we'll just take money out of the healthcare fund to keep the country from going over the cliff, so who could be against that?

What prevents some future democrat from saying "hey, we don't have a deficit, total intake equals spending!" failing to note that will change when medical payments need to be made to providers.

Brace yourself and buy some of this

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSufxG0YihFOseOgKCRiCrhVYkhFnwF1hWKde9ayAyeFN8IxyJp

GAFinch
07-05-2012, 22:42
It's going to be tough for the GOP. Denying coverage for pre-existing conditions has already been implemented and will be impossible to get rid of. Young adults being kept on their parents' plans until 26 will be hard to get rid of, especially until the under/unemployment figure gets back to normal. Starting August 1st, free contraception, abortifacients, and sterilization procedures will be added to all plans. Women who had been using basic contraception drugs will naturally switch over to expensive, designer drugs and will loathe going back to the "primitive" drugs.

The Democrats purposely front-loaded these goodies to screw us.