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Sam Spade
07-03-2012, 15:08
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/jul/02/6/armed-daphne-man-arrested-church-ar-4073647/


Why? Shouldn't they have just watched him until he did something?

Jon_R
07-03-2012, 15:33
Maybe. What is the law in Alabama? He was not charged with a weapons charge. Have to see if he had a prescription for the pills. If he had a prescription then I guess release and give him back his guns. If the 6 pills where not legal how big of an issue is that. Fine??

If he went there to kill people I guess he was not to motivated. Even if the response time was 2 minutes which would be amazing he could have caused a lot of damage and chose not to.

oldman11
07-03-2012, 15:35
This is the only thing I could find in Oklahoma gun laws that they could arrest him on. That is assuming he had a Oklahoma CCL (news article didn't mention it). Although armed like he was I would have to think he was not there for any peaceful purposes.

"No person may hunt, pursue game or use firearms within 440 yards of a church, schoolhouse, or other public place where people may assemble, so as to disturb such assemblage."

Mister_Beefy
07-03-2012, 15:46
police arresting someone that is not breaking the law, but behaving in a manner they deem "inappropriate"

unpossible! :rofl:

twag4
07-03-2012, 15:48
Alabama allows open carry. Oklahoma laws dont really count in Alabama. He was not a regular attender of that church. I dont know if he was asked to leave, but that is the only thing that they can get him on without being "creative" in their interpretation of the laws. I'm not sure of the local ordinances (sp) in that town though.

Jon_R
07-03-2012, 15:56
Alabama allows open carry. Oklahoma laws dont really count in Alabama. He was not a regular attender of that church. I dont know if he was asked to leave, but that is the only thing that they can get him on without being "creative" in their interpretation of the laws. I'm not sure of the local ordinances (sp) in that town though.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/

Says AL has state preemption on handguns. Weird handguns only...

It didn't say he was charged with trespassing... Weird story.

MississipVol
07-03-2012, 16:00
Alabama allows open carry. Oklahoma laws dont really count in Alabama. He was not a regular attender of that church. I dont know if he was asked to leave, but that is the only thing that they can get him on without being "creative" in their interpretation of the laws. I'm not sure of the local ordinances (sp) in that town though.

Sorry, but if a man walks into my church in military fatigues, backpack, and assault rifle, I will probably be the first on the phone dialing 911.

The lives of my family are WAY more important than trying to determine if the man just brought along an assault rifle to church to exercise his carry rights.

Just my .02 because I can't think of any reason to bring an AR in to church. If it were someone I knew and trusted it might be completely different.

Nevertheless, based on the contents of his backpack, I wouldn't doubt if this couple had something up their sleeves. It wouldn't surprise me if further investigation finds that out.

Jon_R
07-03-2012, 16:10
That is fine and understandable and also the property owner can tell the man to leave before or after the police show up.

I hope you don't support arresting a person that didn't break a law because you are concerned or worried.

If they had something up their sleeves it was very nice of them to just hang out a while relax. etc..




Sorry, but if a man walks into my church in military fatigues, backpack, and assault rifle, I will probably be the first on the phone dialing 911.

The lives of my family are WAY more important than trying to determine if the man just brought along an assault rifle to church to exercise his carry rights.

Just my .02 because I can't think of any reason to bring an AR in to church. If it were someone I knew and trusted it might be completely different.

Nevertheless, based on the contents of his backpack, I wouldn't doubt if this couple had something up their sleeves. It wouldn't surprise me if further investigation finds that out.

Bruce M
07-03-2012, 16:20
...

I hope you don't support arresting a person that didn't break a law because you are concerned or worried.

...

Oddly as it may seem, my guess is that the vast majority of responders to the vast majority of churches would take the guy in camouflage with a rifle into custody.

And perhaps as oddly, my guess is that a subtantially huge majority of voters would support that and my guess is also that the absolute vast majority of courts with jurisdiction over these types of situations would be perfectly content with the police taking the guy in camouflage with a rifle in church into custody, disarming him and then charging him with any violation of statutes they discovered during the investigation.

dudel
07-03-2012, 16:22
What are the laws? In Ga, even with my carry permit, there are places I may not legally carry. Places of worship are one of those places.

ADK_40GLKr
07-03-2012, 16:23
Probably not. The only church I know of with armed security keep it really low key but trained, organized, plain clothes, CCW, and scattered throughout the congregation.

Was this a black church that a skinhead in military gear with his weapons decided to attend?

MississipVol
07-03-2012, 16:24
That is fine and understandable and also the property owner can tell the man to leave before or after the police show up.

I hope you don't support arresting a person that didn't break a law because you are concerned or worried.

If they had something up their sleeves it was very nice of them to just hang out a while relax. etc..

Don't get me wrong, I am not in support of him getting arrested. I think the police should have been called to safely access the scene but really don't know why they arrested him. He should have just been escorted out and informed that the church did not want him to bring weapons and mass amounts of ammo into the sanctuary.

Moreover, IF he had some type of reason to bring in the guns, why didn't he just tell an elder or his pastor about it so there wouldn't have been such an alarm?

I am a 2nd amendment supporter but have to question this guy's judgement on this one.

Jon_R
07-03-2012, 16:36
Does he have to be suspected of committing a crime to be brought into custody. Is that different then arrested?

If he did not have the pills and he has to be expected of committing a what would be crime put on the paperwork?

I am glad the voters don't directly pass the laws or can modify the constitution.


Oddly as it may seem, my guess is that the vast majority of responders to the vast majority of churches would take the guy in camouflage with a rifle into custody.

And perhaps as oddly, my guess is that a subtantially huge majority of voters would support that and my guess is also that the absolute vast majority of courts with jurisdiction over these types of situations would be perfectly content with the police taking the guy in camouflage with a rifle in church into custody, disarming him and then charging him with any violation of statutes they discovered during the investigation.

Rick C
07-03-2012, 17:00
Dunno about the watching and waiting thing.

I'm guessing the press release was from the cops to the news.
Amazing.
No machine gun, assault-rifle, clips, bullets, etc. mentioned. It even managed to give BCM props. Surprised it didn’t mention the magazine and accessories manufacturers.

“Two weapons were removed from him: a Bravo Company Manufacturing .223 caliber semi-automatic M-4 rifle equipped with tactical sights and accessories and a Glock 9 millimeter pistol. Investigators say Hernandez also had six magazines for the rifle with one-hundred fifty rounds of ammunition, three magazines for the pistol with thirty rounds of ammunition, a first aid kit, and a walkie-talkie radio equipped with an earpiece.”

Spiffums
07-03-2012, 17:11
"wearing military fatigues inside a church on Sunday. Officers were called to a church in the 800 block of North Greeno Road. A member of the congregation reported that a male had entered the church armed with an assault rifle. They said the suspect, Robin Lee Hernandez, was wearing a backpack and military fatigues."



He would have got the royal treatment at my church. Hi nice man! Would you like to see the business end of my glock?

I would say he made the church fell uncomfortable enough to call the Po Po.

Spiffums
07-03-2012, 17:21
Sorry, but if a man walks into my church in military fatigues, backpack, and assault rifle, I will probably be the first on the phone dialing 911.

The lives of my family are WAY more important than trying to determine if the man just brought along an assault rifle to church to exercise his carry rights.

Just my .02 because I can't think of any reason to bring an AR in to church. If it were someone I knew and trusted it might be completely different.

Nevertheless, based on the contents of his backpack, I wouldn't doubt if this couple had something up their sleeves. It wouldn't surprise me if further investigation finds that out.

To protect the church in case a guy in army clothes with an AR or AK came in and disturbed the peace would be a pretty good reason.


We used to talk about more than just CCW guns in church or the security team. But it didn't amount to anything.

Misty02
07-03-2012, 17:27
You have what appears to be an unknown person in a church (private property) where he is not wanted. It doesn’t mention if he had a carry license. It doesn’t say if his handgun was concealed. It appears to be illegal to carry a pistol concealed without a license in AL.

.

RussP
07-03-2012, 17:43
This is from the comments:...I happen to know that the rifle was not loaded, he had no intention of doing any harm to anyone. What the article fails to mention is that Robin is not just some random male in camo- he's been a long time member of the church of Christ, he goes there every week with his wife and their two newborn children. He is a former marine and he knows his rights. Is he not allowed to celebrate Independence Day by putting on his Marine uniform and legally carrying his firearm

TBO
07-03-2012, 17:54
July 1st- What Independence day is that?

Rick C
07-03-2012, 18:17
From the article "six morphine pills".
What kind of statement was he trying to make?
I only carry the best... BCM and Dilaudid.

KenMac
07-03-2012, 18:38
Alabama allows open carry. Oklahoma laws dont really count in Alabama. He was not a regular attender of that church. I dont know if he was asked to leave, but that is the only thing that they can get him on without being "creative" in their interpretation of the laws. I'm not sure of the local ordinances (sp) in that town though.


I'm a life-long resident of Alabama and a concealed carry permit holder, and I'm pretty certain there is no open carry allowed here. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Also, even though an act may be legal, it doesn't mean that it is a wise or prudent thing to do. Common sense goes a long way in forming opinions about a person's actions IMO.

RussP
07-03-2012, 18:51
July 1st- What Independence day is that?Canada Day

Bruce M
07-03-2012, 18:55
Does he have to be suspected of committing a crime to be brought into custody. Is that different then arrested?

If he did not have the pills and he has to be expected of committing a what would be crime put on the paperwork?

I am glad the voters don't directly pass the laws or can modify the constitution.

Officers respond to a man with a rifle in church call. Presuming the guy with the rifle does not sneeze and exactly and quickly obeys commands he is handcuffed, weapons removed and searched. Quite probably he will be removed from the open worship area of the church. You are free to question this. My contention is that this is going to be a perfectly acceptable and valid response. I doubt there are many courts, legislatures or voters who will disagree. Then if the investigation uncovers a crime he is arrested and charged.


This is from the comments:

Quote:
...I happen to know that the rifle was not loaded, he had no intention of doing any harm to anyone. What the article fails to mention is that Robin is not just some random male in camo- he's been a long time member of the church of Christ, he goes there every week with his wife and their two newborn children. He is a former marine and he knows his rights. Is he not allowed to celebrate Independence Day by putting on his Marine uniform and legally carrying his firearm



Ok he is a regular congregant there. But does he regularly carry his rifle in the open to and inside his church? Were the pastor, church elders and other congregants aware of his intentions and we they aware the rifle was not loaded? How about the person who called 911?

RussP
07-03-2012, 19:00
I'm a life-long resident of Alabama and a concealed carry permit holder, and I'm pretty certain there is no open carry allowed here. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Also, even though an act may be legal, it doesn't mean that it is a wise or prudent thing to do. Common sense goes a long way in forming opinions about a person's actions IMO.They are having a big OC event on July 21 - http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?104245-Alabama-Gun-Rights-Alabama-Open-Carry-meeting.

TBO
07-03-2012, 19:02
Canada Day

Thank you.

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KenMac
07-03-2012, 19:13
They are having a big OC event on July 21 - http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?104245-Alabama-Gun-Rights-Alabama-Open-Carry-meeting.


Thanks...........Apparently I need to study Alabama law some more!!

Patchman
07-03-2012, 19:16
From the article "six morphine pills".
What kind of statement was he trying to make?
I only carry the best... BCM and Dilaudid.

I personally prefer oxycodone. The 60mg variety.

twag4
07-03-2012, 20:16
Sorry, but if a man walks into my church in military fatigues, backpack, and assault rifle, I will probably be the first on the phone dialing 911.

The lives of my family are WAY more important than trying to determine if the man just brought along an assault rifle to church to exercise his carry rights.

Just my .02 because I can't think of any reason to bring an AR in to church. If it were someone I knew and trusted it might be completely different. I received a subscription email that led me to believe otherwise.

Nevertheless, based on the contents of his backpack, I wouldn't doubt if this couple had something up their sleeves. It wouldn't surprise me if further investigation finds that out.

I could not agree with you more. I suppose brandishing could be the charge. Not sure how they can do it though. I think it is weird and dangerous what this joker did.

Rick C
07-03-2012, 20:20
^ Patchman, whatever gets you through the day.
According to the article posted, I find it odd he had narcotics.
What was he trying, feebly, to prove?

twag4
07-03-2012, 20:21
I'm a life-long resident of Alabama and a concealed carry permit holder, and I'm pretty certain there is no open carry allowed here. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Also, even though an act may be legal, it doesn't mean that it is a wise or prudent thing to do. Common sense goes a long way in forming opinions about a person's actions IMO.


Go to the Alabama Attorney General's web site and read what it says. There is no law that forbids it or allows it. Therefore, we can and many do. The Al Attorney General has given this info to all law enforcement. I don't open carry, but we can.

twag4
07-03-2012, 20:25
Quote:
From post #23

"...I happen to know that the rifle was not loaded, he had no intention of doing any harm to anyone. What the article fails to mention is that Robin is not just some random male in camo- he's been a long time member of the church of Christ, he goes there every week with his wife and their two newborn children. He is a former marine and he knows his rights. Is he not allowed to celebrate Independence Day by putting on his Marine uniform and legally carrying his firearm"

If this is the case, I stand corrected. Still seems like pretty dodgy judgement on the part of the guy! I received a subscription email that led me to believe he was not a church member.

Sam Spade
07-03-2012, 20:48
Because workers never shoot up *their* businesses, congregants never shoot up *their* churches and people never shoot up *their* homes and families?

rmodel65
07-03-2012, 20:58
Maybe. What is the law in Alabama? He was not charged with a weapons charge. Have to see if he had a prescription for the pills. If he had a prescription then I guess release and give him back his guns. If the 6 pills where not legal how big of an issue is that. Fine??

If he went there to kill people I guess he was not to motivated. Even if the response time was 2 minutes which would be amazing he could have caused a lot of damage and chose not to.


Alabama pretty much doesnt have any off limits places...they are may issue for permits but you can OC(need a permit to get in a car though)

rmodel65
07-03-2012, 21:02
July 1st- What Independence day is that?



it was Canada day :tongueout:

rmodel65
07-03-2012, 21:03
What are the laws? In Ga, even with my carry permit, there are places I may not legally carry. Places of worship are one of those places.


strangely enough you can carry a rifle with a 16 inch barrel to church(or anywhere off limits for that matter) because it doesnt meet the definition of a weapon to be off limits but a handgun you must be licensed to carry would get you a year in the clink possibly

magiaaron
07-03-2012, 21:11
To protect the church in case a guy in army clothes with an AR or AK came in and disturbed the peace would be a pretty good reason.


We used to talk about more than just CCW guns in church or the security team. But it didn't amount to anything.

:rofl: That's the truth!

I am all in favor of people being able to carry any firearm they want along with them, but it is really strange to have someone come into church with that kind of stuff on their person. I can't blame the cops for arresting him even if they had to be creative with their reason for it. I would say common sense indicates something weird was going on.:dunno:

BamaBud
07-03-2012, 21:26
Thanks...........Apparently I need to study Alabama law some more!!

Try:
http://www.alabamaopencarry.com/

BTW: Fairhope is one of the largest enclaves of Leftists in the state!

rmodel65
07-03-2012, 22:26
:rofl: That's the truth!

I am all in favor of people being able to carry any firearm they want along with them, but it is really strange to have someone come into church with that kind of stuff on their person. I can't blame the cops for arresting him even if they had to be creative with their reason for it. I would say common sense indicates something weird was going on.:dunno:



really??? :tongueout:


Gun control in colonial America was virtually
unheard of, with the exception of laws that required
people to be armed, such as Georgia’s 1770 law requiring
all males between the ages of 16 and 60 to
bear a gun or two pistols while attending church,
under the penalty of a fine for failing to be armed.
Don B. Kates, Jr., “Handgun Prohibition and the
Original Meaning of the Second Amendment,” 82
Michigan Law Review (1983), pp. 216-217.

Kaybe
07-04-2012, 00:35
This guy wasn't going into church to pray for a good day at the range. Who brings all that stuff with them into a church service? LE did right. I think that it was very fortunate that he didn't open up inside the church. Why else would he be there with all his gear? Yes, I have read the part about him not having a chambered weapon and all, but this was a narrowly averted tragedy.

Sharky7
07-04-2012, 01:00
Only on Glocktalk can the same people contemplate the possible future use of deadly force when asked for change by a stranger, but they supposedly won't bat an eye when a guy walks in dressed and geared up like the guy above. :dunno:

DanaT
07-04-2012, 02:49
Only on Glocktalk can the same people contemplate the possible future use of deadly force when asked for change by a stranger, but they supposedly won't bat an eye when a guy walks in dressed and geared up like the guy above. :dunno:

You have it wrong. On GT when asked for change, they go full mall ninja on him because they are that guy dressed up like the guy above...


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Misty02
07-04-2012, 06:14
Only on Glocktalk can the same people contemplate the possible future use of deadly force when asked for change by a stranger, but they supposedly won't bat an eye when a guy walks in dressed and geared up like the guy above. :dunno:

It does seem enough of a visual to raise concern. I’m afraid that if present I would have been among those calling 911 as I took my family and left the church. If he meant no harm and was doing nothing illegal I hope he would accept my apologies next time we saw him.

Not everything that is legal is right and not everything that is illegal is wrong. This one may not have been illegal, but unless I knew the person and knew what he was doing and why I too would have been concerned.

Now if he had mentioned at the prior service that in celebration of the Independence Day he was coming to the next service in his full military gear, firearms and all, perception of what I was witnessing would have been completely different.

.

Bruce M
07-04-2012, 06:43
Only on Glocktalk can the same people contemplate the possible future use of deadly force when asked for change by a stranger, but they supposedly won't bat an eye when a guy walks in dressed and geared up like the guy above. :dunno:


:goodpost:


Maybe someone who knows more about these type things than do I can answer this. If he were still active in the military would it be customary for him to bring his rifle with him into church to help celebrate Independence Day in a non-combat area? I.E. Suppose he was at Camp Lejeune - would he have carried his rifle into the church there?

Bren
07-04-2012, 07:06
Sorry, but if a man walks into my church in military fatigues, backpack, and assault rifle, I will probably be the first on the phone dialing 911.

The lives of my family are WAY more important than trying to determine if the man just brought along an assault rifle to church to exercise his carry rights.

And I'll be calling 911 while he has a gun pointed at him (one that was not carried in the open).

:goodpost:


Maybe someone who knows more about these type things than do I can answer this. If he were still active in the military would it be customary for him to bring his rifle with him into church to help celebrate Independence Day in a non-combat area? I.E. Suppose he was at Camp Lejeune - would he have carried his rifle into the church there?


Nope. His rifle would be locked in an arms room. The only place you have possession of a rifle 24/7 in the Army is basic training and a combat zone. I'm guessing the USMC is the same on that. Even in basic training, if you got to church the rifle stays with a buddy at the barracks.

You have it wrong. On GT when asked for change, they go full mall ninja on him because they are that guy dressed up like the guy above...


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A rare occasion when we agree, but I still think that's your Prius on the "Anybody Drive a Prius" thread. :rofl:

steveksux
07-04-2012, 07:49
July 1st- What Independence day is that?I got married on Sept 16, 2000, so we went to church for our anniversary, but that Sunday probably didn't fall on Sept 16.

As it turned out, it was the first Sunday after 9/11, so church was packed of course. Father Dan (who married us*) greeted us on the way out, and remarked "Does it take a disaster to get you guys back in church???" I said, "Well, she can be kind of ornery sometimes, but I wouldn't call our marriage a disaster yet... we came for our anniversary"... :rofl:

Randy

*Father Dan is not married to both of us, Catholic priests aren't allowed to marry. I meant to say he performed our marriage ceremony.

steveksux
07-04-2012, 07:59
And I'll be calling 911 while he has a gun pointed at him (one that was not carried in the open).

+1. People might be wondering why I didn't put the hymnal down when the song was over. But he would be covered discretely while the wife calls 911. Don't want to set him off, but don't want to give him much of a head start if he does.

Randy

jph02
07-04-2012, 08:12
Alabama law prohibits possession at demonstrations (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/alabama.pdf) and I suspect that will be key to any weapons-related charges.

Michigan prohibits open carry in churches and prohibits concealed carry in churches, but if you have a CPL, you can open carry in a church. Go figure.

As for this guy, if you have to bring your AR to church, you're either attending in the wrong neighborhood or you're in the wrong church.

TBO
07-04-2012, 08:24
No comments in the first aid kit and two way radios?

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Bruce M
07-04-2012, 08:24
...



Nope. His rifle would be locked in an arms room. The only place you have possession of a rifle 24/7 in the Army is basic training and a combat zone. I'm guessing the USMC is the same on that. Even in basic training, if you got to church the rifle stays with a buddy at the barracks.


A rare occasion when we agree, but I still think that's your Prius on the "Anybody Drive a Prius" thread. :rofl:

Thanks - I had sorta expected that. My point is is that it is not like he is suddenly being prevented from doing something to celebrate as he would have been able to do when he was still in the service.



And just in case someone hasn't had the time to get to the thread in question...
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1430637

Jon_R
07-04-2012, 08:25
Is this action done under the officer safety side of the issue or does it happen because the officer has reasonable suspicion the person committed a crime / violated a specific statute? Or can you just tell the person and it be legal and proper that I am taking you into custody / arresting you (still have not got any information if they are the same thing or not) because I have reasonable suspicion you committed a crime. My response if it was me what crime is that???

It is what it is just trying to understand why. If any of the variables change would it likely change the course of events. If he was open carrying a musket and dressed like a minuteman? If he was in dockers and a polo? Just a pistol? If it was a "non scary" rifle? etc...

I try and figure out the way things are actually done and the way they should be done theoretically.

I also am not a big fan of ends justified the means or better safe then sorry or if it saves only one person it is worth it, etc...

Officers respond to a man with a rifle in church call. Presuming the guy with the rifle does not sneeze and exactly and quickly obeys commands he is handcuffed, weapons removed and searched. Quite probably he will be removed from the open worship area of the church. You are free to question this. My contention is that this is going to be a perfectly acceptable and valid response. I doubt there are many courts, legislatures or voters who will disagree. Then if the investigation uncovers a crime he is arrested and charged.

Jon_R
07-04-2012, 08:30
I could not agree with you more. I suppose brandishing could be the charge. Not sure how they can do it though. I think it is weird and dangerous what this joker did.

Usually brandishing requires acting in an aggressive or threatening manner with a firearm. I hope the collective is not wanting the states position to be if you see anyone with a firearm because they are armed they are default acting aggressive or threatening.

Is it NC that tried to do that with the terrorizing the public against anyone open carrying?

Jon_R
07-04-2012, 08:32
July 1st- What Independence day is that?

Since July 4th is a Wednesday this must have been the observed Church Sunday / Independence day. :tongueout:

dbak
07-04-2012, 08:34
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/jul/02/6/armed-daphne-man-arrested-church-ar-4073647/


Why? Shouldn't they have just watched him until he did something?

Your right just call the cops when he opens fire.. other then that leave him alone. Smart

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Jon_R
07-04-2012, 08:37
This guy wasn't going into church to pray for a good day at the range. Who brings all that stuff with them into a church service? LE did right. I think that it was very fortunate that he didn't open up inside the church. Why else would he be there with all his gear? Yes, I have read the part about him not having a chambered weapon and all, but this was a narrowly averted tragedy.

Really you honestly believe that?? You thought this was going to be an active shooter situation if LEOs did not show up? You thought this guy open displaying arms was just going to sit there a significant amount of time then spring into action when he got around to it? Maybe he wanted to get a few songs in before going on a rampage.

Has there ever been an active shooter situation where the shooter openly displaying arms just milled around amongst his targets for a significant amount of time then opened up.

Jon_R
07-04-2012, 08:42
And I'll be calling 911 while he has a gun pointed at him (one that was not carried in the open).





Based on my other postings in the thread it might sound odd but it might also be my response though when the police arrive I would expect I would be the person arrested... Holding a person at gun point that has not done anything threatening and not breaking any laws I would expect my brandishing to be my problem but still might do it if I felt it was needed. If I did he might then be justified in using deadly force against me.... Pretty easy for him to argue he felt in fear of death when I drew and pointed a gun at him when he did "nothing" to warrant it.

I guess I am complicated....

Jon_R
07-04-2012, 08:52
^ Patchman, whatever gets you through the day.
According to the article posted, I find it odd he had narcotics.
What was he trying, feebly, to prove?

Maybe he was not trying to prove anything and was injured as a Marine and had a prescription for them though did not have them in the proper container on his person thus no way to prove he had them legally.

Maybe was just trying to prove that what a great country he lives in that he as a common citizen and reported veteran has such rights guaranteed by the constitution that he can keep and bear arms without infringement thanks to courageous people before him that declared our independence from tyranny. Sucker.... :tongueout:

Misty02
07-04-2012, 09:26
No comments in the first aid kit and two way radios?

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Those were suspicious but it appears their existence was not known until after the fact thus likely not to have been part of the original concern perceived by those that called 911. When you put it all together, I would think there was more than one red flag being raised there.

.

Bruce M
07-04-2012, 10:12
Is this action done under the officer safety side of the issue
...

This would be done not just for the safety of the officers but for the safety of everyone in or near the building.

steveksux
07-04-2012, 10:14
The guy has done nothing wrong. He's just open carrying a rifle.

The hundreds of rounds of ammunition were likely intended to go in the offering plate. :whistling:

Randy

Kaybe
07-04-2012, 10:16
Jon R, yes, I do believe that. Why he just sat there, only he knows. People just don't carry several guns, ammo and gear into church. "anyone with a firearm" is not the same as this guy. It is quite clear that reality and common sense don't cloud your thinking.

Misty02
07-04-2012, 10:17
http://www.mugshotsworld.com/robin-lee-hernandez





POSSESSION OF A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE
ILLEGAL POSSESSION OF PRESCRIPTION DRUGS
possession.OF A CONCLD weapon W/OUT A PERMIT


My uneducated guess would be that reasonable suspicion was enough for a frisk. Discovery of the concealed weapon (handgun was likely concealed) without a permit (based on what I read it is required in AL to have a license in order to carry a concealed handgun) provided probable cause for the remainder of the search. Put all together it was more than enough for an arrest.

.

rmodel65
07-04-2012, 12:31
*Father Dan is not married to both of us, Catholic priests aren't allowed to marry. I meant to say he performed our marriage ceremony.


I know a Catholic priest who is married...

rmodel65
07-04-2012, 12:33
Alabama law prohibits possession at demonstrations (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/alabama.pdf) and I suspect that will be key to any weapons-related charges.

Michigan prohibits open carry in churches and prohibits concealed carry in churches, but if you have a CPL, you can open carry in a church. Go figure.

As for this guy, if you have to bring your AR to church, you're either attending in the wrong neighborhood or you're in the wrong church.


Church is a political demonstration?? Also i dont believe that law takes effect until you are asked to leave...

rmodel65
07-04-2012, 12:37
http://www.mugshotsworld.com/robin-lee-hernandez





My uneducated guess would be that reasonable suspicion was enough for a frisk. Discovery of the concealed weapon (handgun was likely concealed) without a permit (based on what I read it is required in AL to have a license in order to carry a concealed handgun) provided probable cause for the remainder of the search. Put all together it was more than enough for an arrest.

.



carrying a rifle amount to reasonable suspicion?? or was it the camo or maybe had police socks on like Falls had in Gary Pirkle park?

Bruce M
07-04-2012, 12:47
carrying a rifle amount to reasonable suspicion?? or was it the camo or maybe had police socks on like Falls had in Gary Pirkle park?


It is the totality of the circumstances. Carrying a rifle in and of itself, no. Carry a rifle in church, in camouflage, without letting the pastor, elders, or congregants in advance the purpose for openly carrying the rifle in church to the extent that they are concerned certainly is far more than necessary for a stop and firsk. Or a prone out on the floor and frisk.

Is it really that difficult to understand? Do you attend a church at where people are regularly attending in camouflage with a rifle slung over their shoulder? Or even once in a while? Doesn't this behavior seem just a bit unusual?

Bruce M
07-04-2012, 12:51
Really you honestly believe that?? ...


Out of curiosity why do you think he was carrying the rifle? And the handgun? And the walkie-talkies and first aid kit?

rmodel65
07-04-2012, 12:59
It is the totality of the circumstances. Carrying a rifle in and of itself, no. Carry a rifle in church, in camouflage, without letting the pastor, elders, or congrgants in advance the purpose for openly carrying the rifle in church to the extent that they are concerned certainly is far more than necessary for a stop and firsk. Or a prone out on the floor and frisk.

Is it really that difficult to understand? Do you attend a church at where people are regularly attending in camouflage with a rifle slung over their shoulder? Or even once in a while? Doesn't this behavior seem just a bit unusual?


ive never seen camo or a rifle...(actually in GA only a rifle with a certain length barrel would be legal to carry to church unless youre exempt under OCGA 16-11-130) as pistols are illegal to carry...if the guy is sitting there peacefully then no i dont think it gives rise to anything other than him sitting there..i have no problem with them watching him for the duration.

they probably made the arrest to prove their point and the dept will probably end up paying for it...

and no i dont call anyone ahead of time to ask for permission for anything i do.

Misty02
07-04-2012, 13:01
carrying a rifle amount to reasonable suspicion?? or was it the camo or maybe had police socks on like Falls had in Gary Pirkle park?

Is it possible there was more to the whole thing than just the cammo and the rifle? Could it be that other odd behavior was observed? Without being there none of us can verbalize the entire impression of those present. Someone mentioned a comment about him having attended that church before. If that is true, were there any previous signs to those that knew him to indicate showing up with a rifle and full cammo was something to be concerned about?

Have you ever known anyone that seemed completely unglued and that one day may just go over the edge? I’m not saying that is the case here, but what if it was? If a person whose sanity you’ve often questioned shows up one day in full cammo and rifle, do you believe you might be concerned enough to make that 911 call? If carrying a rifle is perfectly legal and obviously so is dressing in full cammo would you just dismiss it?

How many signs do you ignore before you acknowledge something just doesn’t seem right? Assuming the article is correct; do you believe there is any reason for concern once you knew what the full inventory of what he carried?

Granted, I probably carry just as many weird things in my vehicle for all sort of possible emergencies. When you put them all together along with my behavior, what does it say? Do they all seem to point to something in particular or just someone prepared for various road and medical emergencies?

.

Misty02
07-04-2012, 13:09
ive never seen camo or a rifle...(actually in GA only a rifle with a certain length barrel would be legal to carry to church unless youre exempt under OCGA 16-11-130) as pistols are illegal to carry...if the guy is sitting there peacefully then no i dont think it gives rise to anything other than him sitting there..i have no problem with them watching him for the duration.

they probably made the arrest to prove their point and the dept will probably end up paying for it...

and no i dont call anyone ahead of time to ask for permission for anything i do.

It appears he was illegally carrying a concealed handgun and illegal possession of prescription drugs (morphine, a controlled substance) in addition to everything else. That doesn’t lead you to believe something was terribly wrong with this picture?


.

Bren
07-04-2012, 13:34
Your right just call the cops when he opens fire.. other then that leave him alone. Smart

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Problem is, when you support your side until your answers become so ridculous that even you don't believe them, you lose the argument. I know it's called "reductio ad absurdum" when somebody uses that argument techinique against you. I'm not sure about when you use it against yourself.:upeyes:

Bren
07-04-2012, 13:43
Is this action done under the officer safety side of the issue or does it happen because the officer has reasonable suspicion the person committed a crime / violated a specific statute? Or can you just tell the person and it be legal and proper that I am taking you into custody / arresting you (still have not got any information if they are the same thing or not) because I have reasonable suspicion you committed a crime. My response if it was me what crime is that???


Yoiu seem to be confusing elements of probable cause to arrest with reasonable suspicion to stop/detain and investigate. This is a common mistake among the OC supporters, who think the police can't detain people unless a crime ahs been committed. That is not the case. For an RS (Terry) stop, no crime needs to have been committed anywhere by anybody - suspicion that a person is about to commit a crime is enough.

To give an example, I'll use the case that established the whole concept in modern law enforcement, Terry v. Ohio (why they call it a Terry stop).

On October 31, 1963, a Cleveland Police Department detective saw two men, John W. Terry and Richard Chilton, standing on a street corner at 1276 Euclid Avenue and acting in a way the officer thought suspicious. He observed the two proceed alternately back and forth along an identical route, pausing to stare in the same store window. Each completion of the route was followed by a conference between the two on a corner. The two men repeated this ritual alternately between five and six times apiece—in all, roughly a dozen trips. After one of these trips, they were joined by a third man (Katz) who left swiftly after a brief conversation. Suspecting the two men of "casing a job, a stick-up", detective McFadden followed them and saw them rejoin the third man a couple of blocks away in front of a store.

At that point, he made the stop, patted Terry down, found a gun and arrested him. All they did was walk on a public street, during the day, and look into the wondows of an open business. However, that was enough to stop and search them.

Here's a link to the whole case: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0392_0001_ZS.html

Yes, the police can stop you because they ahve reason to suspect you are about to commit a crime or are involved in some ongoing crime. It takes very little evidence.

(And, in this case, if you have to ask what crime they suspected he was about to commit and why, you are playing dumb to stir the pot)

Jon_R
07-04-2012, 14:04
Out of curiosity why do you think he was carrying the rifle? And the handgun? And the walkie-talkies and first aid kit?

For something other then shooting people. If his intent was to shoot people he had plenty of opportunity to do so likely unimpeded until he ran out of ammo or people to shoot. Other possible was suicide by cop but he also did not exercise that option which he could have also easily done.

I think he is either mentally unstable and / or celebrating his life as a free man. Or as I posted earlier.

Maybe was just trying to prove that what a great country he lives in that he as a common citizen and reported veteran has such rights guaranteed by the constitution that he can keep and bear arms without infringement thanks to courageous people before him that declared our independence from tyranny. Sucker.... http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue%20out.gif

Jon_R
07-04-2012, 14:17
Thanks for answering I have asked the same question a few times in this thread and in other threads and nobody would answer it. What I got out of it is.

1) Being detained = taking into custody does not equal being arrested.
2) To be detained the bar is pretty low. Reasonable suspicion the person might in the future or may have committed A crime. Does not have to be a specific crime such as Reasonable suspicion the person just violated Statute 788.3 for example it can just be this does not look / feel right so I will stop and investigate. Anything found from the investigation as it relates to the 4th will be determined later based on if the suspicion was reasonable?


Follow up:
To take the next step and arrest does it have to be a specific statute / crime. Such as I am arresting you because I think you committed a crime or does it have to be I am arresting you because I think you did X / violated Statute 445.3? Or can the officer not tell the person anything other then I am placing you under arrest?



Yoiu seem to be confusing elements of probable cause to arrest with reasonable suspicion to stop/detain and investigate. This is a common mistake among the OC supporters, who think the police can't detain people unless a crime ahs been committed. That is not the case. For an RS (Terry) stop, no crime needs to have been committed anywhere by anybody - suspicion that a person is about to commit a crime is enough.

To give an example, I'll use the case that established the whole concept in modern law enforcement, Terry v. Ohio (why they call it a Terry stop).



At that point, he made the stop, patted Terry down, found a gun and arrested him. All they did was walk on a public street, during the day, and look into the wondows of an open business. However, that was enough to stop and search them.

Here's a link to the whole case: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0392_0001_ZS.html

Yes, the police can stop you because they ahve reason to suspect you are about to commit a crime or are involved in some ongoing crime. It takes very little evidence.

(And, in this case, if you have to ask what crime they suspected he was about to commit and why, you are playing dumb to stir the pot)

rmodel65
07-04-2012, 14:19
It appears he was illegally carrying a concealed handgun and illegal possession of prescription drugs (morphine, a controlled substance) in addition to everything else. That doesn’t lead you to believe something was terribly wrong with this picture?


.



i imagine those things will be poisonous fruit from the evidence tree...because you can't search someone without cause.....granted i dont know all the facts but if he was just sitting there armed exactly what did they suspect him of?

Jon_R
07-04-2012, 14:26
Do we know that to be the case? He may have told everyone but the one person who called the police. I don't know one way or the other but I read nothing that that convinced me one way or the other.

Lots of behavior of people seems unusual and odd. Ever been to Walmart at night? About New Orlean, Vegas, or the Keys?


It is the totality of the circumstances. Carrying a rifle in and of itself, no. Carry a rifle in church, in camouflage, without letting the pastor, elders, or congrgants in advance the purpose for openly carrying the rifle in church to the extent that they are concerned certainly is far more than necessary for a stop and firsk. Or a prone out on the floor and frisk.

Is it really that difficult to understand? Do you attend a church at where people are regularly attending in camouflage with a rifle slung over their shoulder? Or even once in a while? Doesn't this behavior seem just a bit unusual?

Sam Spade
07-04-2012, 14:38
i imagine those things will be poisonous fruit from the evidence tree...because you can't search someone without cause.....granted i dont know all the facts but if he was just sitting there armed exactly what did they suspect him of?

Bren has already answered this. You can find him quoted in the post just prior to yours.

Sam Spade
07-04-2012, 14:44
Do we know that to be the case? He may have told everyone but the one person who called the police. I don't know one way or the other...


Jon, the overall tone of your posts is that you want certainty before any action is taken. That's not realistic, and that's never been the standard required of LE in the US.

Bruce M
07-04-2012, 14:52
...

they probably made the arrest to prove their point and the dept will probably end up paying for it...

and no i dont call anyone ahead of time to ask for permission for anything i do.

My guess is that the only thing the department will be paying for is some court time for the officers involved in criminal court as witnesses. My guess is that an attorney after at least reading the article would be glad to file a suit on the defendant's behalf for a false arrest as long as the defendant paid the attorney a huge fee in advance; because otherwise I don't think an attorney would go much past an initial consultation for this. You are welcome to think that carrying a rifle while in camouflage in church does not warrant any intervention by the police. I know better.

People are welcome to try showing up unannounced at a wide variety of places in camouflage and a rifle. But there are some places where alerting people there ahead of time of one's intentions would be the far better course.

Bruce M
07-04-2012, 15:06
Do we know that to be the case? He may have told everyone but the one person who called the police. I don't know one way or the other but I read nothing that that convinced me one way or the other.

Lots of behavior of people seems unusual and odd. Ever been to Walmart at night? About New Orlean, Vegas, or the Keys?

Anything is possible. He might actually be a secret operative working for CTU and was there based on intelligence that terrorists were going to come to the church.

And yet I have to think that if by chance he told everyone but the one person who called, one or more of those called would have come to his defense and explained to the police what was going on which may have quelled concerns long before he was taken into custody and searched. But maybe everyone in church had sudden onset laryngitis. And no one had a pen and paper to write a message to the police.

Yes, no, yes and yes. But there may be difference in the eyes of the law between behavior that is odd and behavior that is not only odd but also can be associated with mass murder.

4949shooter
07-04-2012, 15:07
Bren and Misty got it right, in my opinion. Without having been present, the natural flow of such a situation would be the LEO's conducting a weapons frisk for safety purposes. There is no judge in the country that would fault the police for conducting a frisk under these circumstances. If during the frisk the Glock handgun is found, or the prescription legend drugs are found (see plain feel doctrine), the arrest and subsequent search of the subject would lead to the discovery of the remainder of the evidence.

SCmasterblaster
07-04-2012, 15:15
That is fine and understandable and also the property owner can tell the man to leave before or after the police show up.

I hope you don't support arresting a person that didn't break a law because you are concerned or worried.

If they had something up their sleeves it was very nice of them to just hang out a while relax. etc..

YOU are so right here.

Jon_R
07-04-2012, 15:38
Jon, the overall tone of your posts is that you want certainty before any action is taken. That's not realistic, and that's never been the standard required of LE in the US.

I don't think I require certainty before action I just want to understand how the process works. As many people pointed out it is / was legal so I want to know why. You are protected from unreasonable search and seizure. There was no evidence he committed a crime yet it was reasonable to search him. He was searched for one of two reason I guess either work. 1) For everyone's safety he was disarmed and searched. 2) The officer had reasonable suspicion of a future crime and that is acceptable a little scary but it is what it is.

I do try and point out when things are presented as fact based on nothing but projection and there is just as much evidence or more against it yet just stated as being fact.

Someone stated the LEOs stopped an active shooter. The person had the means and plenty of opportunity to in fact start killing people and didn't. There is no evidence that the person was ever going to shoot anybody. When given the opportunity while having the means to do so he declined. The hypothesis he was going to kill people is supported with a only he knows why he didn't do what he planned to do....

To state he didn't tell anyone or everyone has no support thus can't be stated as fact. There is nothing to support it. Yes at least one person called the police. I will accept that as fact. If there where 100 people over the age of 13 there where probably 100 cell phones. They could have all been told and still someone didn't like it and called the police.

Misty02
07-04-2012, 15:49
i imagine those things will be poisonous fruit from the evidence tree...because you can't search someone without cause.....granted i dont know all the facts but if he was just sitting there armed exactly what did they suspect him of?

Because I wasn’t there and don’t know him it would be nearly impossible for me to actually answer that question.

What was the behavior before and during this event?

.

Misty02
07-04-2012, 15:58
Do we know that to be the case? He may have told everyone but the one person who called the police. I don't know one way or the other but I read nothing that that convinced me one way or the other.

Lots of behavior of people seems unusual and odd. Ever been to Walmart at night? About New Orlean, Vegas, or the Keys?

We had a guy that worked in our office many years ago that made everyone’s skin crawl. He showed particular interest in the offices of those of us with kids. He would come in take the picture in his hands, stare at it while asking people about their kids hobbies, where they went to school and stuff. He often licked his lips while looking at the pictures. It was disturbing enough that several people asked for their address to be removed from the emergency employee rosters, which I thought it was silly since he already had a copy of it.

I would have never allowed my kids to be in the kitchen or go to the bathroom alone unless I was certain of his exact location (and he was far from it).

What did he do that was illegal? Were we wrong to judge him by his actions or for having an “unusual” interest on other people’s kids?

One thing is to respect people’s privacy and their rights, quite another to be so blind that you refuse to see the possible dangers staring your right at the face.



.

Misty02
07-04-2012, 16:23
I don't think I require certainty before action I just want to understand how the process works. As many people pointed out it is / was legal so I want to know why. You are protected from unreasonable search and seizure. There was no evidence he committed a crime yet it was reasonable to search him. He was searched for one of two reason I guess either work. 1) For everyone's safety he was disarmed and searched. 2) The officer had reasonable suspicion of a future crime and that is acceptable a little scary but it is what it is.

I do try and point out when things are presented as fact based on nothing but projection and there is just as much evidence or more against it yet just stated as being fact.

Someone stated the LEOs stopped an active shooter. The person had the means and plenty of opportunity to in fact start killing people and didn't. There is no evidence that the person was ever going to shoot anybody. When given the opportunity while having the means to do so he declined. The hypothesis he was going to kill people is supported with a only he knows why he didn't do what he planned to do....

To state he didn't tell anyone or everyone has no support thus can't be stated as fact. There is nothing to support it. Yes at least one person called the police. I will accept that as fact. If there where 100 people over the age of 13 there where probably 100 cell phones. They could have all been told and still someone didn't like it and called the police.

Hypothetical scenario: You are walking on a parking lot toward your vehicle one evening. A man walks in front of you and asks you “hey buddy, I ran out of gas, can you lend me a few dollars to get home? I’ll pay you back.” You look at him and notice the grip of a firearm sticking out from the front of his pants. You tell him you don’t have any and continue to walk. He runs to catch up and once more is in front of you “hey buddy, I told you already I would pay you back, all I need is to borrow a couple of dollars. What is your home address? I’ll take it to you personally. I don't want to have to ask you again!” He looks at your hand, sees a wedding band and adds “Your lovely wife doesn’t even have to find out you lend me the money.” Body language and tone is all wrong.

Has he done anything illegal? Has he done anything suspicious? Would this man's presence alarm you? What would you do? If you were to call the police, what would you expect them to do?


.

rmodel65
07-04-2012, 16:28
Bren and Misty got it right, in my opinion. Without having been present, the natural flow of such a situation would be the LEO's conducting a weapons frisk for safety purposes. There is no judge in the country that would fault the police for conducting a frisk under these circumstances. If during the frisk the Glock handgun is found, or the prescription legend drugs are found (see plain feel doctrine), the arrest and subsequent search of the subject would lead to the discovery of the remainder of the evidence.

why do you need to frisk him for weapons its obvious he is armed...

Misty02
07-04-2012, 16:34
why do you need to frisk him for weapons its obvious he is armed...

Because it was not as obvious that he was illegally carrying another concealed weapon?

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Misty02
07-04-2012, 16:43
why do you need to frisk him for weapons its obvious he is armed...


Sunday at church
Military fatigues
OC M-4 Rifle (doesn’t say if he had it on a sling on his back or in his hand)
Backpack
An illegally concealed Glock
6 magazines for the rifle with 150 rounds of ammo
3 magazines for the Glock with 30 rounds of ammo
First aid kit
Walkie-talkie radio with an earpiece
His wife had the matching set walkie-talkie
6 morphine pills (not legally belonging to him)

You are truly going to tell me there is nothing wrong with that picture? What does it take to make you believe something is wrong? Would a grenade tilt it a tad over the top?

.

rmodel65
07-04-2012, 16:47
im not saying there isnt anything wrong...im asking how did they discover the drugs and the pistol...none of that other stuff is illegal...why does he need to be patted down...if he admitted to the pistol then yeah he is an idiot...but if they came in snatched him up patted him down and found that stuff it will probably be thrown out

Sam Spade
07-04-2012, 16:55
im not saying there isnt anything wrong...im asking how did they discover the drugs and the pistol...none of that other stuff is illegal...

Any officer seeing a rifle might logically believe that other weapons were present, leading to a frisk. Upon discovering a pistol illegally carried, a detailed search incident to his arrest would find the pills.

All that hinges on the cop being able to explain why he believed the man to be armed (a given) and dangerous (not at all a challenge in these conditions).

wprebeck
07-04-2012, 16:56
There are at least two people in this thread who would do the following if this man DID shoot up the church:

"Why didn't the cops do anything? The guy was dressed in camo, in church, open carrying an AR-15, on Sunday, and no one knew why. He even sat there for two hours, working up the nerve to do it - and the police REFUSED to do anything, even when we told them over and over. See, this just proves that the cops aren't required to do anything, and its why I carry a gun. Hell, everyone knows that when you need a cop, they're only minutes away. Plus, I've seen how most of them shoot, and I've trained way better than them. I'd have put two in his chest and one in his head, because you know he'd be wearing a vest, dressed up like that in church - seriously, who does that?"

Misty02
07-04-2012, 17:00
im not saying there isnt anything wrong...im asking how did they discover the drugs and the pistol...none of that other stuff is illegal...why does he need to be patted down...if he admitted to the pistol then yeah he is an idiot...but if they came in snatched him up patted him down and found that stuff it will probably be thrown out

Even if the parishioners testify to any odd behavior before that mixed with the cammo and opened carried rifle was sufficient to raise their concern? What if he appeared to be high on something? Would you be of the opinion that someone that appears high, is in full cammo and carrying a rifle may not raise sufficient suspicion for a frisk? Or what if he was just fidgety and nervously looking around, maybe it looked as if he is waiting for someone specific to arrive?

Since I wasn't there I don't know if any of the above is a possibility or not, but would either of those qualify?
.

Bruce M
07-04-2012, 17:18
Yoiu seem to be confusing elements of probable cause to arrest with reasonable suspicion to stop/detain and investigate. This is a common mistake among the OC supporters, who think the police can't detain people unless a crime ahs been committed. That is not the case. For an RS (Terry) stop, no crime needs to have been committed anywhere by anybody - suspicion that a person is about to commit a crime is enough.

To give an example, I'll use the case that established the whole concept in modern law enforcement, Terry v. Ohio (why they call it a Terry stop).



At that point, he made the stop, patted Terry down, found a gun and arrested him. All they did was walk on a public street, during the day, and look into the wondows of an open business. However, that was enough to stop and search them.

Here's a link to the whole case: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0392_0001_ZS.html

Yes, the police can stop you because they ahve reason to suspect you are about to commit a crime or are involved in some ongoing crime. It takes very little evidence.

(And, in this case, if you have to ask what crime they suspected he was about to commit and why, you are playing dumb to stir the pot)

Jon, the overall tone of your posts is that you want certainty before any action is taken. That's not realistic, and that's never been the standard required of LE in the US.

Bren and Misty got it right, in my opinion. Without having been present, the natural flow of such a situation would be the LEO's conducting a weapons frisk for safety purposes. There is no judge in the country that would fault the police for conducting a frisk under these circumstances. If during the frisk the Glock handgun is found, or the prescription legend drugs are found (see plain feel doctrine), the arrest and subsequent search of the subject would lead to the discovery of the remainder of the evidence.

im not saying there isnt anything wrong...im asking how did they discover the drugs and the pistol...none of that other stuff is illegal...why does he need to be patted down...if he admitted to the pistol then yeah he is an idiot...but if they came in snatched him up patted him down and found that stuff it will probably be thrown out


There seems to be a rather divergent opinion and then several opinions that seem to be fairly similar. I wonder who actually has experience in searches and testimony and who is guessing??

Bren
07-04-2012, 17:18
im not saying there isnt anything wrong...im asking how did they discover the drugs and the pistol...none of that other stuff is illegal...why does he need to be patted down...if he admitted to the pistol then yeah he is an idiot...but if they came in snatched him up patted him down and found that stuff it will probably be thrown out

Hard to say - if you look at the Terry case, it was because the crime they suspected he was planning was robbery and, therefore, the officer's experience led him to think a gun would be present. In this case, the crime they suspected was obviously a mass murder shooting spree and any officer with training on recent events of that type (which is all of them) could easily see that this guy fit the profile (OMG! They Profiled Him!:rofl:). Along with that crime usually goes carrying multiple guns, ammo, knive and/or explosives so it would be easy to argue the need for the weapon pat down that goes with the Terry stop. How they found the drugs could depend on how they were concealed.

On the other hand, they usually just say, "do you have any other weapons or drugs on you" and, VERY often, people say "yeah, right here." Those who see this stuff in the movies would never believe how often people just confess to crimes as soon as they're asked, or before.

DanaT
07-04-2012, 17:46
Wouldn't the people in the church calling the police be the reasonable suspicion the police need to investigate?

This is about tue police being called. This isn't the police driving down the street and seeing a guy sitting in church and searching him.

I would say this guy raised about 10 flags. His behavior was so out of place that people called the police.

What should the police if called about a strange person OC? Tell the caller OC is legal and not respond? What should police do if someone calls in a suspected DUI? Tell them driving is legal and driving erratically isn't grounds for an investigation?




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rmodel65
07-04-2012, 18:19
Wouldn't the people in the church calling the police be the reasonable suspicion the police need to investigate?





No...if i call to report you walking with a child does that give the police reasonable suspicion that you kidnapped them? What about if a security guard calls and says you have a gun and are wearing police style socks? (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1419229)

Bruce M
07-04-2012, 18:52
No...if i call to report you walking with a child does that give the police reasonable suspicion that you kidnapped them? What about if a security guard calls and says you have a gun and are wearing police style socks? (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1419229)


I think part of what you are missing here revolves around the thought that adults regularly walk with children. Guys do not generally go into church in camouflage with a rifle. Try changing the analogy to an adult walking holding the hand of the child and the child yelling "let me go let me go!"

Brucev
07-04-2012, 19:16
Re: OP. Good decision by the member of the church and by the police. Very seriously doubt that this man had permission of the pastor/church board to have weapons on church grounds. Applaud the church and police for the way the matter was handled.

Not aware of applicable local or state laws on oc. This entire issue could have been avoided if the man had simply had the common sense to contact the pastor/church board and receive appropriate approval to carry firearms on church property. As it is, his bizarre manner/conduct resulted in him being arrested, etc.

FireForged
07-04-2012, 20:26
I am as pro gun as the come but I am not going to pretend to feel guilty because I view a fellow gunowners actions as very bizzare, suspect or less than prudent. If this guy walked into my Church, I would have felt like something was very wrong.

rmodel65
07-04-2012, 20:37
I think part of what you are missing here revolves around the thought that adults regularly walk with children. Guys do not generally go into church in camouflage with a rifle. Try changing the analogy to an adult walking holding the hand of the child and the child yelling "let me go let me go!"


my neice does that when she doesnt want to leave the park all the time :tongueout:

dbak
07-04-2012, 20:54
Problem is, when you support your side until your answers become so ridculous that even you don't believe them, you lose the argument. I know it's called "reductio ad absurdum" when somebody uses that argument techinique against you. I'm not sure about when you use it against yourself.:upeyes:

I was being sarcastic

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RussP
07-04-2012, 21:11
Wouldn't the people in the church calling the police be the reasonable suspicion the police need to investigate? No...if i call to report you walking with a child does that give the police reasonable suspicion that you kidnapped them? What about if a security guard calls and says you have a gun and are wearing police style socks? (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1419229)rmodel65, yes, in this specific incident, within these circumstances, there was sufficient suspension warranting investigation.

Do not try to apply a blanket response policy to every situation. It is not like that in the real world.

DanaT
07-04-2012, 23:48
I think part of what you are missing here revolves around the thought that adults regularly walk with children. Guys do not generally go into church in camouflage with a rifle. Try changing the analogy to an adult walking holding the hand of the child and the child yelling "let me go let me go!"

I go to bed wake up, and someone has already responded.

Or maybe it is a little more subtle.

It's more like my neighbors kid that see out the window being pulled along and struggling by man that I have never seen around. I don't know the whole situation but enough that something seems out of place.

People need to admit that people are generally a pretty good judge of noticing when something is "out of place".

If you are sitting on an airplane waiting to take off, some middle eastern looking guy keeps repeating "Allah Akbar" he has done nothing illegal but do YOU want to be on that plane once it's in the air? Maybe he is just scared of flying? But is it strange enough behavior that maybe it should be looked into?


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Misty02
07-05-2012, 03:48
As DanaT has mentioned, at times you have to trust people’s instincts when they notice something is out of place. God has blessed many of us with such instincts to keep us safe and we use them quite often. Why would anyone insist in ignoring signs that would activate anyone’s alert mechanism?

Yes, there are times people’s alert mechanism is flawed and filled with prejudice but more often than not it is well tuned in. If I were to see a well dressed, clean cut man (regardless of race) OC where OC is legal I would likely think nothing of it. He could be a Ted Bundy for all I know, but he will likely not raise my alert mechanism. It may; however, raise the alert mechanism of someone that doesn’t approve of firearms and they may call 911. The police would have to make their own assessment once they arrive.

my neice does that when she doesnt want to leave the park all the time :tongueout:

Funny you should mention that one. How many of us know couples with children from prior marriages? Have you ever heard a child throw a temper tantrum at the non-biological parent where they tell them “you’re not my mother” or “you’re not my father”? Those that have may react a bit different than they should to something like this. What would you do in this case? Err on the side of caution or dismiss it as a child having a temper tantrum? In spite having seen a similar display before (when nothing was wrong), I believe I would make the call, just in case.

Would you expect the police to detain and investigate if they were called to the scene? After all, it could be you and your niece and you just took her away from her favorite place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYqfW-Tp_Ew

.

Misty02
07-05-2012, 03:53
rmodel65, would you humor me and respond to the the same hypothetical scenario I presented John?

Hypothetical scenario: You are walking on a parking lot toward your vehicle one evening. A man walks in front of you and asks you “hey buddy, I ran out of gas, can you lend me a few dollars to get home? I’ll pay you back.” You look at him and notice the grip of a firearm sticking out from the front of his pants. You tell him you don’t have any and continue to walk. He runs to catch up and once more is in front of you “hey buddy, I told you already I would pay you back, all I need is to borrow a couple of dollars. What is your home address? I’ll take it to you personally. I don't want to have to ask you again!” He looks at your hand, sees a wedding band and adds “Your lovely wife doesn’t even have to find out you lend me the money.” Body language and tone is all wrong.

Has he done anything illegal? Has he done anything suspicious? Would this man's presence alarm you? What would you do? If you were to call the police, what would you expect them to do?


.

Stevekozak
07-05-2012, 06:28
rmodel65, would you humor me and respond to the the same hypothetical scenario I presented John?
I"ll answer it (since you posted it twice) :)

No, he has not done anything illegal (to my knowledge) Yes I would find it suspicious. Yes I would have some alarm (mostly over the "I don't want to have to ask you twice" part) I would tell him to get the hell away from me at this point. No, I would NOT call the police if this was where it ended.

happyguy
07-05-2012, 07:18
Rights or no rights he's lucky a member of the congregation didn't shoot him just to be on the safe side.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Bren
07-05-2012, 07:27
I was being sarcastic

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On this forum, it's always hard to tell. There are many here who wouldn't hesitate to argue that the police should ignore him until after somebody has been shot. Ironically, the same members also like to criticize the police for not preveenting crimes.

DanaT
07-05-2012, 07:34
On this forum, it's always hard to tell. There are many here who wouldn't hesitate to argue that the police should ignore him until after somebody has been shot. Ironically, the same members also like to criticize the police for not preveenting crimes.

But doesn't it trouble you when one of "those guys" says the police should check it out because it is suspicious enough that even a 5 year old figure out something was out of place


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Misty02
07-05-2012, 07:52
I"ll answer it (since you posted it twice) :)

No, he has not done anything illegal (to my knowledge) Yes I would find it suspicious. Yes I would have some alarm (mostly over the "I don't want to have to ask you twice" part) I would tell him to get the hell away from me at this point. No, I would NOT call the police if this was where it ended.

I couldn’t take it further without giving more away that I wanted to, but I think you know where I was going with it. :)

At times there may be nothing illegal with suspicious and intimidating activities/actions of others, but just because nothing illegal has been done (yet) is not always wise to dismiss it. BTW, with the “wrong” tone and body language I meant intimidating and/or threatening.

.

SevenSixtyTwo
07-05-2012, 08:15
Thankfully no one was injured. Hopefully this far right fruitcake will be thoroughly evaluated for whatever mental condition, PTSD, bipolar, schizophrenia, that would lead him to act in such an unusual manner. He may truly need some help. He may be a harmless nutcase with good intentions but how do you know when he's a mere trigger pull away from a massacre. I own assault rifles and I carry every day as do many others. His behavior was beyond suspicious. Very disturbing.

ithaca_deerslayer
07-05-2012, 10:21
Wouldn't the people in the church calling the police be the reasonable suspicion the police need to investigate?

This is about tue police being called. This isn't the police driving down the street and seeing a guy sitting in church and searching him.

I would say this guy raised about 10 flags. His behavior was so out of place that people called the police.

What should the police if called about a strange person OC? Tell the caller OC is legal and not respond? What should police do if someone calls in a suspected DUI? Tell them driving is legal and driving erratically isn't grounds for an investigation?


Caller: OMG! An assault rifle, my husbands says it's an AR-15, and he's sitting there in the middle of church with it, wearing cammo, looking around, I'm affraid he's going to start shooting us all!

Police: Ma'am, he's perfectly legal. Nothing we can do. Unless once he starts to shoot he uses the bumpfire technique with a special piece of equipment that attaches to the rifle. Pay close attention, I'll describe it to you...

Bruce M
07-05-2012, 11:13
Caller: OMG! An assault rifle, my husbands says it's an AR-15, and he's sitting there in the middle of church with it, wearing cammo, looking around, I'm affraid he's going to start shooting us all!

Police: Ma'am, he's perfectly legal. Nothing we can do. Unless once he starts to shoot he uses the bumpfire technique with a special piece of equipment that attaches to the rifle. Pay close attention, I'll describe it to you...


Apparently that's not the way it works, at least in some jurisdictions...

rmodel65
07-05-2012, 11:22
Thankfully no one was injured. Hopefully this far right fruitcake will be thoroughly evaluated for whatever mental condition, PTSD, bipolar, schizophrenia, that would lead him to act in such an unusual manner. He may truly need some help. He may be a harmless nutcase with good intentions but how do you know when he's a mere trigger pull away from a massacre. I own assault rifles and I carry every day as do many others. His behavior was beyond suspicious. Very disturbing.



why do you assume he is far right?? owning a gun+camo+first aid kit+ walkie talkies= far right now?

SevenSixtyTwo
07-05-2012, 11:59
why do you assume he is far right?? owning a gun+camo+first aid kit+ walkie talkies= far right now?

Probably because he would appear to be the furthest you could get from a far left whining anti 2A pants wetting liberal pot smoking welfare grubbing entitlement minded dreadlock sporting droopy pants gold toothed tree hugger kind of fruitcake. Hopefully you don't relate to the church commando and take offense.:cool:

4949shooter
07-05-2012, 13:53
The bottom line here is that, if it were our own sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, etc. worshipping in that church, we would all want the guy at least checked out by the police.

tim12232
07-05-2012, 14:06
I'm a life-long resident of Alabama and a concealed carry permit holder, and I'm pretty certain there is no open carry allowed here. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Also, even though an act may be legal, it doesn't mean that it is a wise or prudent thing to do. Common sense goes a long way in forming opinions about a person's actions IMO.

yup, you were wrong....
http://opencarry.org/al.html

Cavalry Doc
07-05-2012, 15:37
I'll go ahead and say it.....


Concealed carry could have prevented this.



Anyone know what his GT handle is?
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the investigation.
:popcorn:

Stevekozak
07-05-2012, 16:43
The bottom line here is that, if it were our own sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, etc. worshipping in that church, we would all want the guy at least checked out by the police.

I am waiting to hear more on this story. One thing I am really curious about (if I were a cat, I would have been dead long ago) is that if this was the man's regular church, and his showing up with his equiptment was unusual for him (Camo in church is really probably not unusual in the deep south, I have seen it myself), did any of the parisheners go over and talk to him before the police arrived, and what was said? I know just about every church I have ever been in, and I grew up a preacher's kid, ppl are so durn nosey that sureley someone just went to him and said, hey, what is up, guy?. I don't think there is anything wrong with having a gun in church. It is illegal in my state, which i think is a crying shame. I like that old adage of "trust in God, but keep one hand on your rifle.". :wavey:

4949shooter
07-05-2012, 16:53
I am waiting to hear more on this story. One thing I am really curious about (if I were a cat, I would have been dead long ago) is that if this was the man's regular church, and his showing up with his equiptment was unusual for him (Camo in church is really probably not unusual in the deep south, I have seen it myself), did any of the parisheners go over and talk to him before the police arrived, and what was said? I know just about every church I have ever been in, and I grew up a preacher's kid, ppl are so durn nosey that sureley someone just went to him and said, hey, what is up, guy?. I don't think there is anything wrong with having a gun in church. It is illegal in my state, which i think is a crying shame. I like that old adage of "trust in God, but keep one hand on your rifle.". :wavey:

I would like to know more background info also. Apparently though, he made someone uneasy.

TBO
07-05-2012, 17:11
Does anyone really expect someone alarmed by a heavily armed man to walk up to him and strike up a conversation?

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

dbak
07-05-2012, 17:12
On this forum, it's always hard to tell. There are many here who wouldn't hesitate to argue that the police should ignore him until after somebody has been shot. Ironically, the same members also like to criticize the police for not preveenting crimes.

i see. and i agree some people are just stupid

Cavalry Doc
07-05-2012, 18:22
Does anyone really expect someone alarmed by a heavily armed man to walk up to him and strike up a conversation?

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

Well, all we have is a black box. We know a very small amount about what went in, almost nothing about what occurred inside, and a fair amount about what came out. Obviously, the right thing happened, no one was hurt.

I can see someone going up and talking to him. Personally, I'd have liked to have a buddy nonchalantly take up an overwatch position over him, and a couple more watch the other entrances and exits before I went over. It would all depend on his demeanor after that. Psycho-motor agitation (fidgeting), eye contact, pitch of voice, startle reflex, pale moist skin, dilated pupils.... if that didn't look good, and depending on where his hands were, he'd be one "allahu akbar" away from three rounds to the head, timed halfway through a question I was asking him. I am not a super ninja, or a spy, or anything special, but I do know how to look at someone and pretty quickly assess whether they are about to do something bad. Other tips, any chance his wife was dressed oddly too? Dressing better than normal would have been another red flag. Was she sweating bullets? Car bombers in Iraq would prepare themselves to meet Mohammed, which usually meant they were very well dressed in bright white, perfumed etc.

Tough call. Glad it all turned out. Still, way too little is known about this to make any calls yet. Only thing for sure, is that the members of the church, and the police seem to have done the right thing.

Zut
07-05-2012, 18:37
With apologies to Russ, I would not have been upset if someone had dropped him right as he walked in the door. There are too many nutcases walking around trying to prove something to risk a bunch of innocent church goers. We can't carry in a church here in Georgia and if I couldn't quickly get my wife and kids out the back door, I would have jumped on him...

Stevekozak
07-05-2012, 18:39
Does anyone really expect someone alarmed by a heavily armed man to walk up to him and strike up a conversation?

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2
If they knew him, maybe they would not be so much alarmed as curious. Ever been in a small town church?

Cavalry Doc
07-05-2012, 18:41
If they knew him, maybe they would not be so much alarmed as curious. Ever been in a small town church?

Heroes can be found in the most surprising places, a small town church is not a place I would be surprised to find a hero.

Stevekozak
07-05-2012, 18:42
With apologies to Russ, I would not have been upset if someone had dropped him right as he walked in the door. There are too many nutcases walking around trying to prove something to risk a bunch of innocent church goers. We can't carry in a church here in Georgia and if I couldn't quickly get my wife and kids out the back door, I would have jumped on him...
You want someone to just "drop you" if they decide that they don't like what you are wearing, what you are carrying, or if you make them uneasy? You should let everyone in your town know. I bet there is someone there that will be glad to have that little nugget of news. :whistling:

Cavalry Doc
07-05-2012, 19:06
You want someone to just "drop you" if they decide that they don't like what you are wearing, what you are carrying, or if you make them uneasy? You should let everyone in your town know. I bet there is someone there that will be glad to have that little nugget of news. :whistling:

There is a context to be considered here:

http://gunssavelives.net/self-defense/sc-ccw-holder-holds-church-gunman-at-gunpoint-prevents-possible-mass-shooting/

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14808321/detail.html

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Knoxville_Unitarian_Universalist_church_shooting

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/04/11536250-two-dead-one-critical-in-md-church-shooting?lite

http://www.9news.com/news/article/264669/71/Pastors-mother-shot-in-church-shooting

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-05-03/news/bs-md-ho-church-shooting-20120503_1_ellicott-city-church-women-shot-bonnybridge-place





Like I said earlier, this could have been prevented by Concealed carry. There is a time and a place for everything. Things that are odd are reasonable to pay attention too. What would you think if a guy walked into a convenience store with an unholstered handgun?

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Stevekozak
07-05-2012, 19:26
There is a context to be considered here:

http://gunssavelives.net/self-defense/sc-ccw-holder-holds-church-gunman-at-gunpoint-prevents-possible-mass-shooting/

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14808321/detail.html

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Knoxville_Unitarian_Universalist_church_shooting

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/04/11536250-two-dead-one-critical-in-md-church-shooting?lite

http://www.9news.com/news/article/264669/71/Pastors-mother-shot-in-church-shooting

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-05-03/news/bs-md-ho-church-shooting-20120503_1_ellicott-city-church-women-shot-bonnybridge-place





Like I said earlier, this could have been prevented by Concealed carry. There is a time and a place for everything. Things that are odd are reasonable to pay attention too. What would you think if a guy walked into a convenience store with an unholstered handgun?

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
I understand the context to which you are referring, but find it quite a dangerous attitude to have to want to shoot someone dead just because they are garbed out in a particular way or are carrying a particular type of gun. Proceed with caution, perhaps, gun them down, no. At this point, I would be more afraid to walk into a room containing Zut than into one containing the guy from the church. Given only what I have read about or from each of them. To my knowledge, the man from the church had not advocated gunning anyone down based on first impressions. :wavey:

Cavalry Doc
07-05-2012, 19:35
I understand the context to which you are referring, but find it quite a dangerous attitude to have to want to shoot someone dead just because they are garbed out in a particular way or are carrying a particular type of gun. Proceed with caution, perhaps, gun them down, no. At this point, I would be more afraid to walk into a room containing Zut than into one containing the guy from the church. Given only what I have read about or from each of them. To my knowledge, the man from the church had not advocated gunning anyone down based on first impressions. :wavey:


Whoa there hoss...... Who said anything about wanting to shoot someone? Guy walks into a church decked out for a zombie invasion or mass shooting...... Yeah, I'd be doing a threat assessment. The bag is the big deal for me. Some of us have been places where those things can go bad real quick.

I do not know what he had planned, I have no way to know that. But it appears he wanted attention. He has it now. Lucky him huh? If he was not up to no good, why didn't he mention it to the congregation the previous week. Communication can go a long way to avoiding trouble.

I'm still suspicious.

Jon_R
07-05-2012, 19:43
I am sure he is referencing post 124 assuming from the poster drop him equals shoot him as soon as he walks in the door.

Whoa there hoss...... Who said anything about wanting to shoot someone? Guy walks into a church decked out for a zombie invasion or mass shooting...... Yeah, I'd be doing a threat assessment. The bag is the big deal for me. Some of us have been places where those things can go bad real quick.

I do not know what he had planned, I have no way to know that. But it appears he wanted attention. He has it now. Lucky him huh? If he was not up to no good, why didn't he mention it to the congregation the previous week. Communication can go a long way to avoiding trouble.

I'm still suspicious.

Cavalry Doc
07-05-2012, 20:12
I am sure he is referencing post 124 assuming from the poster drop him equals shoot him as soon as he walks in the door.

Shooting and killing someone is a choice based on circumstances. No one said that they wanted too. You'd have to be very naive to want to shoot someone. It's not pretty, and not nearly as glamorous as TV makes it seem.
Usually, it's very expensive.

But just because you don't want to, in today's world, you have to consider whether you will have too when you run into someone in that scenario. Nothing is certain, but a threat assessment is in order. If a crook is packing, getting ready to heist a corner store, and someone walks in open carrying, he's going to do something similar, probably with less objective evidence, he will decide what to do based on fear..... Could be a good thing, could be bad.

The guy got the attention he wanted, just not sure it ended the way he wanted.

4949shooter
07-05-2012, 20:50
Zut said he would drop the mo fo. This may be extreme, but I understand where he is coming from.

As a police officer, I would give the subject one command, maybe even two commands, and depending on his reaction I would engage (or not).

Stevekozak
07-06-2012, 04:57
Whoa there hoss...... Who said anything about wanting to shoot someone? Guy walks into a church decked out for a zombie invasion or mass shooting...... Yeah, I'd be doing a threat assessment. The bag is the big deal for me. Some of us have been places where those things can go bad real quick.

I do not know what he had planned, I have no way to know that. But it appears he wanted attention. He has it now. Lucky him huh? If he was not up to no good, why didn't he mention it to the congregation the previous week. Communication can go a long way to avoiding trouble.

I'm still suspicious.
Well, I thought Zut did. If I misunderstood Zut's meaning when he said "I would not have been upset if someone had dropped him right as he walked in the door", then I apologise. It sure seemed to me that he was refering to putting one in his melon. Threat assessment needs to be much more than glancing at what a person is wearing or carrying, before deciding to shoot someone. I think we are probably looking at this much the same, but perhaps have different ideas about what Rut meant in his post. I agree 100% that communication can go a long way in avoiding trouble. I should hope that some would be forthcoming before deciding to "drop someone" regardless of the meaning of the phrase.

Misty02
07-06-2012, 05:00
Well, all we have is a black box. We know a very small amount about what went in, almost nothing about what occurred inside, and a fair amount about what came out. Obviously, the right thing happened, no one was hurt.

I can see someone going up and talking to him. Personally, I'd have liked to have a buddy nonchalantly take up an overwatch position over him, and a couple more watch the other entrances and exits before I went over. It would all depend on his demeanor after that. Psycho-motor agitation (fidgeting), eye contact, pitch of voice, startle reflex, pale moist skin, dilated pupils.... if that didn't look good, and depending on where his hands were, he'd be one "allahu akbar" away from three rounds to the head, timed halfway through a question I was asking him. I am not a super ninja, or a spy, or anything special, but I do know how to look at someone and pretty quickly assess whether they are about to do something bad. Other tips, any chance his wife was dressed oddly too? Dressing better than normal would have been another red flag. Was she sweating bullets? Car bombers in Iraq would prepare themselves to meet Mohammed, which usually meant they were very well dressed in bright white, perfumed etc.

Tough call. Glad it all turned out. Still, way too little is known about this to make any calls yet. Only thing for sure, is that the members of the church, and the police seem to have done the right thing.

I agree. There isn’t enough information for us. It’s quite likely some of those present had more information, including but not limited to conversations or observations from previous encounters. It could have been just observations from that day. Assuming the article is correct; I do believe there was enough to raise the red flag that resulted in the 911 call. The remainder of the inventory seems highly suspicious as well.

Now, if he had discussed with others before that day that he was coming in full military gear with his rifle in celebration of Independence Day and to pay respect for all fallen military personnel who gave their life to preserve that Independence for all others, someone would have stood up and spoken on his behalf (which we don’t know if it happened or not). Granted, after finding the illegally carried concealed handgun and the illegally possessed morphine pills there wouldn’t have been much anyone present could have done to prevent his arrest.


.

Bren
07-06-2012, 05:05
I understand the context to which you are referring, but find it quite a dangerous attitude to have to want to shoot someone dead just because they are garbed out in a particular way or are carrying a particular type of gun.

Look at it this way - at best, shooting him when he walks in would stop a nutcase from killing a bunch of people...at worst, there'd be one less ninja posting about OC in GNG.:rofl:

SevenSixtyTwo
07-06-2012, 05:09
The person presenting their self as a threat real or perceived needs to consider whether it's worth the risk of getting shot as they walk in the door too. He knew he would not be received with yawns. No one is saying shoot someone because they appear different. But a threat needs to be evaluated very quickly. That could mean a pre-emtive shot at first appearance right or wrong. People reacting to protect their families can and should move to stop a threat "before" it does harm to themselves or their families. So don't walk into church appearing as a threat and you won't have to worry.

Misty02
07-06-2012, 05:21
With apologies to Russ, I would not have been upset if someone had dropped him right as he walked in the door. There are too many nutcases walking around trying to prove something to risk a bunch of innocent church goers. We can't carry in a church here in Georgia and if I couldn't quickly get my wife and kids out the back door, I would have jumped on him...

Obviously that wasn’t necessary. We can carry at church in FL and it is very likely there would have been more than a handful ready for possible conflict. Me? I would have gotten an unexpected stomach ache (or something) and my entire family would have had to take me home right then and there. The big question is, would I have been able to pull both our boys out of there with the possibility of friends being at risk and perhaps needing back-up until the police arrived? Hopefully not a question I ever need to find the answer for.

Thankfully the whole family is aware and agrees that the most successful gun fight is the one you’re not there for; however, when other family members or close friends are at risk the rules of the game change.

Additionally, he had been honorably discharged from the military. My entire family has a very high level of respect and admiration for those that have served. Why would you shoot such a person (or anyone else for that matter) unless you had absolutely no other choice left?
http://privateofficernews.wordpress.com/tag/robin-lee-hernandez/

.

Misty02
07-06-2012, 05:26
There is a context to be considered here:

http://gunssavelives.net/self-defense/sc-ccw-holder-holds-church-gunman-at-gunpoint-prevents-possible-mass-shooting/

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14808321/detail.html

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Knoxville_Unitarian_Universalist_church_shooting

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/04/11536250-two-dead-one-critical-in-md-church-shooting?lite

http://www.9news.com/news/article/264669/71/Pastors-mother-shot-in-church-shooting

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-05-03/news/bs-md-ho-church-shooting-20120503_1_ellicott-city-church-women-shot-bonnybridge-place





Like I said earlier, this could have been prevented by Concealed carry. There is a time and a place for everything. Things that are odd are reasonable to pay attention too. What would you think if a guy walked into a convenience store with an unholstered handgun?

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

It could have, but it appears he wasn’t licensed for concealed carry as that was one of the charges. Of course, if no one noticed, no one would have been the wiser.

.

Misty02
07-06-2012, 05:42
The person presenting their self as a threat real or perceived needs to consider whether it's worth the risk of getting shot as they walk in the door too. He knew he would not be received with yawns. No one is saying shoot someone because they appear different. But a threat needs to be evaluated very quickly. That could mean a pre-emtive shot at first appearance right or wrong. People reacting to protect their families can and should move to stop a threat "before" it does harm to themselves or their families. So don't walk into church appearing as a threat and you won't have to worry.

I don’t necessarily agree. People reacting to protect their families can and should move their rears out of there if at all possible, engaging the threat (for me) is the last alternative when a safe escape is not available.

You just reminded me of a comment made by a friend in jest one day “maybe you all should separate and tactically sit in different sections”. Our entire family getting up and vacating a whole pew may not go unnoticed by someone with intent to do something stupid during the service. Maybe that deserves a bit more thought. :embarassed:

.

ignantmike
07-06-2012, 05:58
who goes to church in camo??????:upeyes:...look's like a nut job to me

Misty02
07-06-2012, 06:05
who goes to church in camo??????:upeyes:...look's like a nut job to me

I would not find it peculiar for military personnel (past and present) to go to church in their military uniform for certain occasions such as Independence Day and Memorial Day (or if they just want to any other day). It’s the accumulation of the other factors that raise concern.

.

DanaT
07-06-2012, 09:53
Does anyone really expect someone alarmed by a heavily armed man to walk up to him and strike up a conversation?

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

On GT sure.

I mean there are only two options for a GTer. They can go all mall ninja on him or they would soil their britches. Which one do you believe they THINK they would do in that situation and which one do you think they would actually do?

I might not agree with policing methods, but that doesn't mean if an officer asks me for ID I am going all GT on him, tell him to eff off, he has no grounds, etc. I know the end of that story. HE will get positive identification of me. The govt has my finger prints (I know this 100% because I gave them to them in order to pass background check to be able to put my hand on the machine and be cleared through customs). If I go all GT it's just how much pain (maybe not physical pain) before he IDs me. Once the LEO asks me for identification the beginning and end of the story have been written. Only what comes in the middle has not been.

I fail to see how people who open carry to get LEO on their case to teach LEO a lesson are doing anything other than subjecting themselves to a lot of BS with nothing in return.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

DanaT
07-06-2012, 09:57
To the LEOs...on average how many hours.minutes.seconds does it take you when you make contact with someone to get a very good gut feeling if something isn't right about a person?

To others, how long does it generally take you to talk to a person and get a good feeling about a person.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

DanaT
07-06-2012, 10:04
Do any of you people who support this wack job realize that there were two young girls murdered in a church parking lot and the gun was coming inside the worship service for a mass shooting? Do you know what limited the killing to 2 teenage girls? An off duty officer who was a church member at the service who shot him in head.

Church security is taken seriously enough now that bigger churches will often have off duty officers who are members be present with weapons because if wackos. In addition churches with large worships sometimes have "security teams" that are present during the services. These are as simple as someone waking around the parking lot greeting people looking for odd stuff to alert LEO to potential threats.

The world isn't Mayberry




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Sam Spade
07-06-2012, 10:49
To the LEOs...on average how many hours.minutes.seconds does it take you when you make contact with someone to get a very good gut feeling if something isn't right about a person?

To others, how long does it generally take you to talk to a person and get a good feeling about a person.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Heck, I make contact with them *because* I get a feeling that something ain't right.

RussP
07-06-2012, 10:54
I can see someone going up and talking to him. Personally, I'd have liked to have a buddy nonchalantly take up an overwatch position over him, and a couple more watch the other entrances and exits before I went over. It would all depend on his demeanor after that. Psycho-motor agitation (fidgeting), eye contact, pitch of voice, startle reflex, pale moist skin, dilated pupils.... if that didn't look good, and depending on where his hands were, he'd be one "allahu akbar" away from three rounds to the head, timed halfway through a question I was asking him. I am not a super ninja, or a spy, or anything special, but I do know how to look at someone and pretty quickly assess whether they are about to do something bad. Other tips, any chance his wife was dressed oddly too? Dressing better than normal would have been another red flag. Was she sweating bullets? Car bombers in Iraq would prepare themselves to meet Mohammed, which usually meant they were very well dressed in bright white, perfumed etc.Doc's post is related to what you are asking, Dana...To the LEOs...on average how many hours.minutes.seconds does it take you when you make contact with someone to get a very good gut feeling if something isn't right about a person?

To others, how long does it generally take you to talk to a person and get a good feeling about a person.There are involuntary signals to read...

Misty02
07-06-2012, 11:00
To the LEOs...on average how many hours.minutes.seconds does it take you when you make contact with someone to get a very good gut feeling if something isn't right about a person?

To others, how long does it generally take you to talk to a person and get a good feeling about a person.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


Not long for sensing something may not be right. A VERY long time to get a “good” feeling about a person, after the initial meeting there is a long period of observation and assessment of acquaintances, most never go beyond being a casual acquaintance.

.

4949shooter
07-06-2012, 11:03
Heck, I make contact with them *because* I get a feeling that something ain't right.

This.

Also, just by the look in his eyes from the mugshot I would have made contact. Hopefully with someone watching my back.

Jake Starr
07-06-2012, 11:08
Does anyone really expect someone alarmed by a heavily armed man to walk up to him and strike up a conversation?



Yep. In my church we would. Not much of a Shepherd or Elder if you are not willing to protect the flock.

I don't fault the guy or the police. This was an EPIC church failure. NO ONE should be able to walk into a church and find a seat if they are suspicious looking or carrying something that is no allowed. Sorry but this guy got nailed by the police for a failure on the church's part. If a church is doing it's job this guy should either have been stopped in the parking lot and asked to leave his gear in the car or if he was a member and allowed to OC in the church, the leaders should have come to his defense whenever the police arrived.

RussP
07-06-2012, 11:18
...if he was a member and allowed to OC in the church, the leaders should have come to his defense whenever the police arrived.According to the comments under the story of a couple of church members, he was a regular attendee known to the membership.

engineer151515
07-06-2012, 11:35
I'm a life-long resident of Alabama and a concealed carry permit holder, and I'm pretty certain there is no open carry allowed here. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Also, even though an act may be legal, it doesn't mean that it is a wise or prudent thing to do. Common sense goes a long way in forming opinions about a person's actions IMO.


You can open carry in your business or on property you control (own, rent, etc). The local police won't get upset if you are on proper hunting land (in season, within hunting regs) sporting a rifle or shotgun.

Otherwise, Alabama frowns on open carry. They arrested a fella a few years back for walking down the street near a Mobile downtown neighborhood with a slung AK47 cause it scared a local gardener. They will lock you up, take your gun, go to your home and take whatever other weapons they can find. Alabama doesn't play with open carry but it is relatively easy (provided you have a clean record) and inexpensive ($35) to get a concealed carry permit which, in lower Alabama, allows a firearm concealed on your person or in your vehicle.

Jake Starr
07-06-2012, 11:36
According to the comments under the story of a couple of church members, he was a regular attendee known to the membership.


Then what I said still stands. Church failure on part of leadership. If he gained a seat, he was granted permission. His beef is not with police but lack of leadership at his church. If I was him or any other member I would have no confidence in the church. If this guy slipped in unbeknown to the leaders, shame on them. If the leadership knew and allowed him in and did not have his back when LE arrived, shame on them. Either way I would be seriously looking for a new church or a change in current leadership or church policy.

Bruce M
07-06-2012, 12:40
... This was an EPIC church failure. NO ONE should be able to walk into a church and find a seat if they are suspicious looking or carrying something that is no allowed. .... If a church is doing it's job this guy should either have been stopped in the parking lot and asked to leave his gear in the car ...

.... If he gained a seat, he was granted permission. ...cy.


Maybe this depends on the size of the church. I have been in some substantial churches were they have parking lot attendants and people in the lots to direct you to the church doors and greeters in the lobby and folks to guide you to a seat and cameramen and sound people and...

And I have also been to churches at where for other than the pastor there really was no evidence of any church administration at all. Granted those that I have been to that are like that are small. I have no idea as to the size of the church in question.

Glock Gator
07-06-2012, 12:42
Did anyone notice that his mother is a lawyer?

From the comments section:
Ginger Poynter (http://www.facebook.com/gingerpoynter) · Attorney at Law (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Attorney-at-Law/111758622176987) at Law Office of Ginger Poynter (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Law-Office-of-Ginger-Poynter/377449165609254)
Joey, Robin is my oldest son.

Jake Starr
07-06-2012, 13:44
Maybe this depends on the size of the church. I have been in some substantial churches were they have parking lot attendants and people in the lots to direct you to the church doors and greeters in the lobby and folks to guide you to a seat and cameramen and sound people and...

And I have also been to churches at where for other than the pastor there really was no evidence of any church administration at all. Granted those that I have been to that are like that are small. I have no idea as to the size of the church in question.


Big or small, leadership is leadership, whether it be one person or many. Guy should never have gotten inside the building with all of his gear. If he did and leadership knew it, they failed to support one of their own.

Let's take guns out of the situation. Suppose he was ocing a arm full of rattle snakes. How did he get in and who let him? If church allows this then they should have supported him when LE showed up.

TBO
07-06-2012, 15:01
... then:

The church let the Cops in who arrested the man, thus the church must back the Cops.

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

twag4
07-06-2012, 15:55
You can open carry in your business or on property you control (own, rent, etc). The local police won't get upset if you are on proper hunting land (in season, within hunting regs) sporting a rifle or shotgun.

Otherwise, Alabama frowns on open carry. They arrested a fella a few years back for walking down the street near a Mobile downtown neighborhood with a slung AK47 cause it scared a local gardener. They will lock you up, take your gun, go to your home and take whatever other weapons they can find. Alabama doesn't play with open carry but it is relatively easy (provided you have a clean record) and inexpensive ($35) to get a concealed carry permit which, in lower Alabama, allows a firearm concealed on your person or in your vehicle.

Goto the Alabama attorney general website. There are no laws in Al prohibiting open carry. While I don't and won't, I could and so could you.

Cavalry Doc
07-06-2012, 16:29
To the LEOs...on average how many hours.minutes.seconds does it take you when you make contact with someone to get a very good gut feeling if something isn't right about a person?

To others, how long does it generally take you to talk to a person and get a good feeling about a person.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Instantly, for those under duress or agitated. Obviously someone that is only mildly feeling off that day might take a few more seconds. I've worked in a few bad places, and it's not that hard when you get used to dealing with people to see when something is bothering them.

TBO
07-06-2012, 16:43
There is no full proof method to tell what someone might, or might not do. Take a look at any newspaper and read about people who did violent/bizarre things and all the folks surprised by it.
Same with some folks LE have contacted prior to them going on and doing something.

Go to GNG right now and read about a small young lady known to the local PD who was out walking in extreme heat and offered a ride by a Cop. He was comfortable enough with her he let her ride up front. She grabbed his pistol and killed herself.

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

Cavalry Doc
07-06-2012, 17:03
There is no full proof method to tell what someone might, or might not do. Take a look at any newspaper and read about people who did violent/bizarre things and all the folks surprised by it.
Same with some folks LE have contacted prior to them going on and doing something.

Go to GNG right now and read about a small young lady known to the local PD who was out walking in extreme heat and offered a ride by a Cop. He was comfortable enough with her he let her ride up front. She grabbed his pistol and killed herself.

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

That is a good point. One exception is a true sociopath. Their adrenalin is not raging. They tie their shoes, button their shirt, kill the neighbor, cook some eggs..... it's all matter of fact with them.

There is no foolproof way, but in the majority of people, even if you are not looking for specific physical characteristics, most people get a gut feeling when something is wrong.

The fact that no one was hurt tells me that this was handled well, even if by accident.

engineer151515
07-06-2012, 17:19
NIGoto the Alabama attorney general website. There are no laws in Al prohibiting open carry. While I don't and won't, I could and so could you.

I understand your point.

I've read Alabama gun law and have had a permit over 20 years.

It reads exactly as I told you.

The charge they write up is disturbing the peace.

Bruce M
07-06-2012, 18:29
Big or small, leadership is leadership, whether it be one person or many. Guy should never have gotten inside the building with all of his gear. If he did and leadership knew it, they failed to support one of their own.

Let's take guns out of the situation. Suppose he was ocing a arm full of rattle snakes. How did he get in and who let him? If church allows this then they should have supported him when LE showed up.


We may just have to disagree on the first part of this. Again I have been to churches at where there is only one leader, the clergyman. And I can easily see how he may, for instance, be dressing a few minutes before the start of the service and not available to great parishoners.

I do agree that of the church decided they were going to allow him in with a rifle they should have supported him but they also should have alerted everyone entering to not be alarmed.

My guess though at this point is that this is purely an academic discussion and rather quite far from what happened at that church.

RussP
07-06-2012, 18:32
You can open carry in your business or on property you control (own, rent, etc). The local police won't get upset if you are on proper hunting land (in season, within hunting regs) sporting a rifle or shotgun.

Otherwise, Alabama frowns on open carry. They arrested a fella a few years back for walking down the street near a Mobile downtown neighborhood with a slung AK47 cause it scared a local gardener. They will lock you up, take your gun, go to your home and take whatever other weapons they can find. Alabama doesn't play with open carry but it is relatively easy (provided you have a clean record) and inexpensive ($35) to get a concealed carry permit which, in lower Alabama, allows a firearm concealed on your person or in your vehicle.Goto the Alabama attorney general website. There are no laws in Al prohibiting open carry. While I don't and won't, I could and so could you.NI

I understand your point.

I've read Alabama gun law and have had a permit over 20 years.

It reads exactly as I told you.

The charge they write up is disturbing the peace.Engineer, you are not disagreeing with twag4, that there are no laws in Al prohibiting open carry, are you?

TBO
07-06-2012, 18:51
That is a good point. One exception is a true sociopath. Their adrenalin is not raging. They tie their shoes, button their shirt, kill the neighbor, cook some eggs..... it's all matter of fact with them.

There is no foolproof way, but in the majority of people, even if you are not looking for specific physical characteristics, most people get a gut feeling when something is wrong.

The fact that no one was hurt tells me that this was handled well, even if by accident.

I'll add the caveat it's not "the average person" who they're dealing with in most of these situations.

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

Misty02
07-06-2012, 19:58
NI

I understand your point.

I've read Alabama gun law and have had a permit over 20 years.

It reads exactly as I told you.

The charge they write up is disturbing the peace.

Hi there, Engineer! :wavey:

I read the AG opinion on OC and while it states it is permitted it doesn’t mean you won’t be charged with something else if attempted. There are many places where OC is legal and those that attempt it get harassed and/or arrested for something else. A shame they’ll use the catch all “disturbing the peace” in AL to discourage its practice.

.

engineer151515
07-06-2012, 21:07
Engineer, you are not disagreeing with twag4, that there are no laws in Al prohibiting open carry, are you?

No.
Open carry is not prohibited.
Alabama gun law says (by memory) that a permit is required to carry concealed on your person or in your car.

No permit required in your place of business or on property you own or control.

Having read that, ole Charlie Graddic back in his AG days wrote an opinion that stated, as far as he can see, open carry is allowed except for some specific no-gun exclusions that are written in the law.

Btw- ole Charlie Graddic hasn't been AG for decades now. I believe he is currently a judge. Anyway, is there an opinion by the current AG as to whether he/she would prosecute? Nope.

Now, technically speaking, one can OC without a permit. But if you get into a car, you are in violation of the law.

Have I seen OC arrested and their homes searched for additional guns? Yes. Twice. Charges both times were disturbing the peace and, as far as I could research the weapons were never returned.

On the brighter side, we just got the laws amended for SBR ownership.

So, feel free to correct me if my recollection is off. I don't have a computer to look up the details right now.

engineer151515
07-06-2012, 21:11
Hi there, Engineer! :wavey:

I read the AG opinion on OC and while it states it is permitted it doesn’t mean you won’t be charged with something else if attempted. There are many places where OC is legal and those that attempt it get harassed and/or arrested for something else. A shame they’ll use the catch all “disturbing the peace” in AL to discourage its practice.

.

Hi Misty. You can OC around me anytime.

JuneyBooney
07-06-2012, 21:24
Maybe. What is the law in Alabama? He was not charged with a weapons charge. Have to see if he had a prescription for the pills. If he had a prescription then I guess release and give him back his guns. If the 6 pills where not legal how big of an issue is that. Fine??

If he went there to kill people I guess he was not to motivated. Even if the response time was 2 minutes which would be amazing he could have caused a lot of damage and chose not to.

Maybe he was in church seeing if God talked to him. :whistling:

Misty02
07-07-2012, 05:04
Hi Misty. You can OC around me anytime.

Thanks. :) The conditions, reason and mood have to be so perfectly aligned for me to one day OC that I don’t see it happening.

Since you don’t have access to a computer at the moment:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/ALAGOp8400205OOpenCarry.pdf

The AG opinion letter is dated 3/24/84, the parts applicable to this thread would be:

Your inquiry numbered one is answered, no. Looney v. State, cited in your inquiry. This opinion states: “Thus, a permit is not required when a person afoot carries an unconcealed pistol.” (This was in reference to a person carrying an unconcealed pistol when afoot)

It further states “No person shall carry a pistol in any vehicle, or concealed on or about his person, except on his land, in his own abode or fixed place of business, without a license therefor as hereinafter provided.”

After carefully re-reading the letter, I would have to agree with you, it specifically (and only) addresses “unconcealed pistols” not rifles.

I don’t know if there is a specific statute in AL that allows OC of rifles, but this particular letter doesn’t address it. BTW, one of the charges in this case was “possession of a concealed weapon without a permit”. There was no charge for OC of the rifle.

.
.

engineer151515
07-07-2012, 06:45
Thank you for all the research, Misty.

Misty02
07-07-2012, 06:54
Thank you for all the research, Misty.

Don’t mention it, the AG letter was easy to find. :)

.

RussP
07-07-2012, 07:02
I don’t know if there is a specific statute in AL that allows OC of rifles, but this particular letter doesn’t address it. BTW, one of the charges in this case was “possession of a concealed weapon without a permit”. There was no charge for OC of the rifle.

.
.Nulla poena sine lege, "no penalty without a law", is the legal principle. It means that one cannot be punished for doing something that is not prohibited by law.

HOWEVER, the consequences of that legal act, the effect that act produces, well, that's where they'll get you. It's in the fine print...

Misty02
07-07-2012, 07:41
Nulla poena sine lege, "no penalty without a law", is the legal principle. It means that one cannot be punished for doing something that is not prohibited by law.

HOWEVER, the consequences of that legal act, the effect that act produces, well, that's where they'll get you. It's in the fine print...

Being the parent of three smart alec kids that I thought would grow up to be lawyers in lieu of a banker and two in the medicine field, I am tempted to say there is a little difference between what is clearly expressed as legal versus what one may interpret as legal absent clear and concise specification that it is. They often tested my patience by following the rules to a T finding every possible loophole to get away with what they wanted. They would even band together ever so often and recite my exact words. It was not long before I started to punish for violating what they knew well the intent was. Of course, as time passed and I saw the little wheels in their head working I started adding “catch all phrases” in the event I left anything out their mischievous little minds could come up with. That is exactly how adults, at times, force the hand of others into enacting more laws; and since adults can hire better legal representations than my kids found in each other, you get the disturbing the peace charge when someone is pushing the envelope a bit further than they should.... which would be ok unless it’s applied on me, of course. :supergrin:





(the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, I’m afraid.)

.

RussP
07-07-2012, 07:52
(the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, I’m afraid.)

.
hehehehehehe, been there, done that, both as a kid and as a parent. :cool:

ignantmike
07-07-2012, 12:47
Did anyone notice that his mother is a lawyer?

From the comments section:
Ginger Poynter (http://www.facebook.com/gingerpoynter) · Attorney at Law (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Attorney-at-Law/111758622176987) at Law Office of Ginger Poynter (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Law-Office-of-Ginger-Poynter/377449165609254)
Joey, Robin is my oldest son.
she's probably a nut job too........

steveksux
07-07-2012, 14:30
According to the comments under the story of a couple of church members, he was a regular attendee known to the membership.So a really good question is did the entire congregation know him? Or only some?

And therefore was it one of the people that knows him who called the police? Or someone who didn't know he was a member there?

If its someone who knows him, pretty significant that they were creeped out enough to call the cops. To a lesser extent if the people who knew him weren't concerned, but turns out a stranger was the one who called since its not an unreasonable reaction for a stranger.

Randy

Chris Brines
07-07-2012, 18:13
Legal or not, if a guy walked into my church carrying an AR and dressed in military fatigues with a walkie talkie, I'd be a little uncomfortable. The real nail in his coffin will be if these pills he had were his or some he got from someone else. Possession of narcotics in the presence of firearms, from what I understand, is much worse than simple possession.

COLOSHOOTR
07-08-2012, 01:21
Does he have to be suspected of committing a crime to be brought into custody. Is that different then arrested?

If he did not have the pills and he has to be expected of committing a what would be crime put on the paperwork?

I am glad the voters don't directly pass the laws or can modify the constitution.

Jon I read a few of your later posts on page 3 and you seem to be kind of going in the same direction objecting to his detention. If someone beat me to the answer in the last 6 or so pages I didn't read I'm sorry....

He can be detained legally for investigation as Officers definatly have reasonable suspicion in this instance. Within reasonable suspicion you do not have to actually commit a crime to be stopped and detained. You either have to be suspected of having commited a crime or suspect that the suspect may be about to commit a crime. Obviously if people were concerned enough to call 911 that means a reasonable person thought the suspect might shoot the place up. (Someone called so someone obviously thought he was dangerous no matter if he was just sitting there with the gun next to him or was holding it in cross body carry with hand on the grip).

Therefore he was detained for looking like he may shoot the place up and then during the investigation schedule I narcotics were located on the suspects person. All of it was within the scope of the Officers authority and was 100% legal and justified.

As for this post in reply to another poster:
Based on my other postings in the thread it might sound odd but it might also be my response though when the police arrive I would expect I would be the person arrested... Holding a person at gun point that has not done anything threatening and not breaking any laws I would expect my brandishing to be my problem but still might do it if I felt it was needed. If I did he might then be justified in using deadly force against me.... Pretty easy for him to argue he felt in fear of death when I drew and pointed a gun at him when he did "nothing" to warrant it.

I guess I am complicated....

I agree 100%!!! If you are not a LEO I would not be pointing a gun at someone unless you felt he was about to shoot you or a third party. Just sitting in the back with the gun does not meet that criteria.... Still, I do think he deserved a little attention from the Police walking into church like that. That isn't something normal people do!

MasterShake
07-08-2012, 09:43
Legal or not, if a guy walked into my church carrying an AR and dressed in military fatigues with a walkie talkie, I'd be a little uncomfortable.
Exactly, you have to be some kind of paranoid nut to walk into a church full of women and children, open carrying a an AR-15 and a pistol! I'm GLAD the police arrested that nut, I mean LOOK at that guy:

http://www2.wkrg.com/mgmedia/image/294/0/360837/robin-lee-hernandez/

If you saw this "law abiding citizen" walking towards you and your kids open carrying an AR-15 with a pistol, you wouldn't feel comfortable at ALL. I know I wouldn't. :shocked:

Stevekozak
07-08-2012, 09:55
Exactly, you have to be some kind of paranoid nut to walk into a church full of women and children, open carrying a an AR-15 and a pistol! I'm GLAD the police arrested that nut, I mean LOOK at that guy:

http://www2.wkrg.com/mgmedia/image/294/0/360837/robin-lee-hernandez/

If you saw this "law abiding citizen" walking towards you and your kids open carrying an AR-15 with a pistol, you wouldn't feel comfortable at ALL. I know I wouldn't. :shocked:
What exactly are you looking at? Bald head and scraggly beard? To me he just looks sad that he got arrested. Would you have felt more comfortable with what he was carrying if he had been clean shaven, smelling of Gucci Envy, and sporting the latest fashion cut from Regis?

Line Rider
07-08-2012, 10:10
This guy looks like a wanna-be Jihadie...

http://www.mugshotsworld.com/robin-lee-hernandez

I think he should have been charge with Making Terrorist Threats under Code of Alabama 13A-10-15

http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/codeofalabama/1975/coatoc.htm

Maybe a few folk would like him seating in the pew next to them, but I wouldn't.

Cavalry Doc
07-08-2012, 10:39
In the totality of what has been learned and discussed in this thread, can we all at least agree that seeing that guy walking into a church open carrying rifle and backpack would have bumped your "sumthin' ain't right" meter up a few notches?

Bruce M
07-08-2012, 12:25
Even if we all can't, it seems a significant proportion of us can. And perhaps even more importantly, at least one in that church had the meter go up also.

Jake Starr
07-08-2012, 15:35
Bottom line, if he put money in the offering plate, he stays.

If not, let the police take him. :wavey:

Bilbo Bagins
07-08-2012, 18:56
This is what is wrong with America anymore.

Its perfectly legal for me have 1 Million dollars in the bank and to collect food stamps

Its perfectly legal for me no walk around my backyard naked an sing showtunes

Its perfectly legal for me to scuba dive at a local shipwreck and collect any human skulls I find, and carve them into ashtrays.

:whistling:

The guy is a FREAKING NUT CASE!!!

What the guy did was legal but to a sane man it was just not right. Regardless for your stand on guns and OC, it was not a sane thing to do. What's wrong is wrong, the guy did something stupid and scared a lot of people.

This is what is wrong with OC. OC should be for walk out in the wilderness, after an emergency, or on a farm. It shouldn't be for church, or watching a little league game.

steveksux
07-08-2012, 19:09
Its perfectly legal for me to scuba dive at a local shipwreck and collect any human skulls I find, and carve them into ashtrays.

:whistling:Not in Michigan. You're not allowed to take anything off of a wreck.


The guy is a FREAKING NUT CASE!!!

What the guy did was legal but to a sane man it was just not right. Regardless for your stand on guns and OC, it was not a sane thing to do. What's wrong is wrong, the guy did something stupid and scared a lot of people.

This is what is wrong with OC. OC should be for walk out in the wilderness, after an emergency, or on a farm. It shouldn't be for church, or watching a little league game.
There's a huge difference between OCing in church and bringing an arsenal and radio gear. This is what's wrong with THIS GUY OCing.

Randy

dabigguns357
07-08-2012, 20:24
Last i remember from living in Al and even getting a c/c permit from there is you can't carry openly.

I don't care who you are,come to the church i attend in fatigues,wearin back pack,with a ear piece in and i'm headed for the door with wife and kids,and yes my hand would be under my coat on my own gun till i got to safety.

rmodel65
07-08-2012, 22:13
Last i remember from living in Al and even getting a c/c permit from there is you can't carry openly.




Open carry has always been legal in Bama....even with a permit its legal because there is no law that prohibits it and Open Carry is the Right enumerated in the Constitutions of the federal government and AL's state Constitution

Sharky7
07-08-2012, 23:39
Anyone figure out yet what his deal was.....Is he in the online world of OC Zealots? Mental illness? Curious to what his motivation was.

Misty02
07-09-2012, 04:23
What exactly are you looking at? Bald head and scraggly beard? To me he just looks sad that he got arrested. Would you have felt more comfortable with what he was carrying if he had been clean shaven, smelling of Gucci Envy, and sporting the latest fashion cut from Regis?

I would agree and doubt many, if any, would look good in their booking photo. His actions may have seemed alarming. The people in that church might know more about his history and mental state but the look in his eyes on that picture is a soft one, sadness could be a good guess. The beard is definitely not well groomed.

It is difficult for me to believe any one single thing would have been what may have alarmed others, it was likely a combination of all factors, perhaps even mixed with other things known to them at the time. I don't know, and couldn't find out much more from a google search.

.

Misty02
07-09-2012, 04:31
Anyone figure out yet what his deal was.....Is he in the online world of OC Zealots? Mental illness? Curious to what his motivation was.

I haven’t been able to find any updates or any articles that would offer additional information.

.

engineer151515
07-09-2012, 05:26
Open carry has always been legal in Bama....even with a permit its legal because there is no law that prohibits it and Open Carry is the Right enumerated in the Constitutions of the federal government and AL's state Constitution

I suggest you re-read my posts.

metal
07-09-2012, 05:33
Has anyone said "Dry Run" yet?
To me he looks like a Jihadist, not an open carry advocate.

Bilbo Bagins
07-09-2012, 07:26
Not in Michigan. You're not allowed to take anything off of a wreck.


There's a huge difference between OCing in church and bringing an arsenal and radio gear. This is what's wrong with THIS GUY OCing.

Randy

+1

The reason why I conceal carry in church is because of some nutcase walking in with an AR or an AK and hosing down the worshipers because of some mental breakdown or some Jihad mission.

Decked out in camo, with an AR, walking in the church and some OC supporters are saying "I don't see anything wrong with that."

Come on...

twag4
07-09-2012, 14:32
NI

I understand your point.

I've read Alabama gun law and have had a permit over 20 years.

It reads exactly as I told you.

The charge they write up is disturbing the peace.

You are mistaken sir, it is legal and is not frowned upon. While I don't open carry, I know several people who do. The only crime you will get charged with, is criminal trespassing. This is only after you are asked to leave private property by the owner or tenant. The Attorney Gen. has made this very clear. It is the policy of the state, and is not a local matter or federal matter. It could be disturbing the peace if an argument ensued after the OC was asked to leave private property, but not just for open carry.

MasterShake
07-09-2012, 15:05
What exactly are you looking at? Bald head and scraggly beard? To me he just looks sad that he got arrested. Would you have felt more comfortable with what he was carrying if he had been clean shaven, smelling of Gucci Envy, and sporting the latest fashion cut from Regis?
I'm sorry but everyone knows first impressions are everything and you know it. Come on? Scraggly/matted beard, bald head, sunken in junkie looking face? Show up to a job interview like that and tell me you get the job. Also, you can't tell me he doesn't look strung out. There's a difference between a sad look and a "jones" look. For Christ sake that guy had Morphine on him as well. Probably got dope sick in his cell. ANYONE, I don't care what you look like, walking around town (especially going to church) with an AR-15 strung to their shoulder, a pistol on their hip with enough ammo for both to get into an hour long shoot out that is NOT active military or LEO has some serious screws missing from their head. CCW or the occasional pistol OC is one thing, but that guy is just not playing with a full deck.

Blackshirts
07-09-2012, 15:33
From what I understand my AZ CCW is recognized in Wyoming, but to carry in a WY church you must have written permission from the church leadership there.

rmodel65
07-09-2012, 15:41
You are mistaken sir, it is legal and is not frowned upon. While I don't open carry, I know several people who do. The only crime you will get charged with, is criminal trespassing. This is only after you are asked to leave private property by the owner or tenant. The Attorney Gen. has made this very clear. It is the policy of the state, and is not a local matter or federal matter. It could be disturbing the peace if an argument ensued after the OC was asked to leave private property, but not just for open carry.

Ive carried openly in Alabama once..I was volunteering at the booth for GeorgiaCarry.org at the GA GOP state convention. I rode across the border in Columbus to Phoenix City AL and dined at the Krystal there...I

The Machinist
07-09-2012, 17:33
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/jul/02/6/armed-daphne-man-arrested-church-ar-4073647/


Why? Shouldn't they have just watched him until he did something?
I'm surprised they didn't arrest the entire congregation, and hold them for hours.

Misty02
07-09-2012, 17:35
You are mistaken sir, it is legal and is not frowned upon. While I don't open carry, I know several people who do. The only crime you will get charged with, is criminal trespassing. This is only after you are asked to leave private property by the owner or tenant. The Attorney Gen. has made this very clear. It is the policy of the state, and is not a local matter or federal matter. It could be disturbing the peace if an argument ensued after the OC was asked to leave private property, but not just for open carry.

You do realize one of the charges was for concealing a weapon without a license/permit, right? The OC of the riffle did not develop a charge.

.

Stevekozak
07-09-2012, 17:56
I'm sorry but everyone knows first impressions are everything and you know it. Come on? Scraggly/matted beard, bald head, sunken in junkie looking face? Show up to a job interview like that and tell me you get the job. Also, you can't tell me he doesn't look strung out. There's a difference between a sad look and a "jones" look. For Christ sake that guy had Morphine on him as well. Probably got dope sick in his cell. ANYONE, I don't care what you look like, walking around town (especially going to church) with an AR-15 strung to their shoulder, a pistol on their hip with enough ammo for both to get into an hour long shoot out that is NOT active military or LEO has some serious screws missing from their head. CCW or the occasional pistol OC is one thing, but that guy is just not playing with a full deck.
And again I ask you: Would you have felt any better about him carrying what he had if had been groomed differently? I am curious about this. BTW, he does have a scraggly beard, but it does not appear to be matted. His face is not sunken in in the photo, he looks quite well-nourished. I have known a lot of junkies from my work, and while you can't tell everything from a picture, he does not, again only in this picture that I have to look at, look like a junkie or strung out.

He may be biggest donkey hole in the world, or a kind misguided soul. I don't have any idea about the dude, as I neither know him or have any information on him other than what is seen in the articles, but judging someone's intent or purpose from a mugshoot photo.....:dunno:

steveksux
07-09-2012, 18:23
How urban is the area this guy is in? I'm wondering if that scraggly beard isn't relatively normal for his neighborhood?

No offense, but it is Alabama we're talking about here. The remote rural areas may not have a lot of Princeton looking guys...

Randy

engineer151515
07-09-2012, 19:37
You are mistaken sir, it is legal and is not frowned upon. While I don't open carry, I know several people who do. The only crime you will get charged with, is criminal trespassing. This is only after you are asked to leave private property by the owner or tenant. The Attorney Gen. has made this very clear. It is the policy of the state, and is not a local matter or federal matter. It could be disturbing the peace if an argument ensued after the OC was asked to leave private property, but not just for open carry.

You are mistaken sir, it is legal and is not frowned upon. While I don't open carry, I know several people who do. The only crime you will get charged with, is criminal trespassing. This is only after you are asked to leave private property by the owner or tenant. The Attorney Gen. has made this very clear. It is the policy of the state, and is not a local matter or federal matter. It could be disturbing the peace if an argument ensued after the OC was asked to leave private property, but not just for open carry.

Mistaken?

I said oc was legal.

But keep in mind that the AG letter dates back to 1984. Charlie is a 13th Circuit Alabama Judge now.

As to OC friendly, here is a reference link to the first case I mentioned . . From 2007

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-289623.html&amp&

And . . .

If you OC during a Mardi Gras parade, Mobile police will arrest you (even though AL law prohibits firearms at political rallys - not public gatherings in general)

I know people who open carry at their businesses or on their property but it is a big mistake if you think you'll walk around Fairhope Arts and Crafts Festival and not garner some negative attention from the local police.

Kindest regards and safe travels.

Eng15

4949shooter
07-09-2012, 19:52
A little common sense goes a long way.

twag4
07-09-2012, 20:04
Mistaken?

I said oc was legal.

But keep in mind that the AG letter dates back to 1984. Charlie is a 13th Circuit Alabama Judge now.

As to OC friendly, here is a reference link to the first case I mentioned . . From 2007

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-289623.html&amp&

And . . .

If you OC during a Mardi Gras parade, Mobile police will arrest you (even though AL law prohibits firearms at political rallys - not public gatherings in general)

I know people who open carry at their businesses or on their property but it is a big mistake if you think you'll walk around Fairhope Arts and Crafts Festival and not garner some negative attention from the local police.

Kindest regards and safe travels.

Eng15

Still incorrect. Mobile can do that during a public gathering.
http://www.alabamaopencarry.com/docs/aochandout.pdf

MasterShake
07-09-2012, 20:12
And again I ask you: Would you have felt any better about him carrying what he had if had been groomed differently? I am curious about this. BTW, he does have a scraggly beard, but it does not appear to be matted. His face is not sunken in in the photo, he looks quite well-nourished. I have known a lot of junkies from my work, and while you can't tell everything from a picture, he does not, again only in this picture that I have to look at, look like a junkie or strung out.

He may be biggest donkey hole in the world, or a kind misguided soul. I don't have any idea about the dude, as I neither know him or have any information on him other than what is seen in the articles, but judging someone's intent or purpose from a mugshoot photo.....:dunno:
Yes because if you suit up nice and comb your hair, you must not be nuts for walking around with a backpack full of loaded mags for the AR-15 you're walking around with on your back and the pistol you have openly on your hip. Come on man? If you read closley I answered this quesion of yours:

"I don't care what you look like, walking around town (especially going to church) with an AR-15 strung to their shoulder, a pistol on their hip with enough ammo for both to get into an hour long shoot out that is NOT active military or LEO has some serious screws missing from their head. CCW or the occasional pistol OC is one thing, but that guy is just not playing with a full deck."

It's called first impressions, you do it, I do it, everyone does it whether they admit it or not. It's human nature. So don't feed me that "but he could be a good guy on the inside" BS because that just isn't true. That guy is a junkie with mental issues and I'm glad the police arrested him. You want to hire him to watch your kids, be my guest. But that guy looks strung out as all hell. even if he was a "clean cut Gucci suited up guy smelling of aftershave". He's still got mental issues, walking around loaded up like that and I'd still think he's a junkie for walking around with nonprescription Morphine pills. The fact he looks the part just further solidifies it.

Stephenopolis
07-09-2012, 20:36
Just say....You notice a person in car talking to your neighbors 10yr child and you haven't seen that car in your neighborhood, are you going to wait to see what happens or walk up to that car and ask if you may help them? Maybe not quite the same situation but maybe you could have averted a problem before it happened.

engineer151515
07-10-2012, 04:49
Still incorrect. Mobile can do that during a public gathering.
http://www.alabamaopencarry.com/docs/aochandout.pdf

Still not reading. I know the legalties. I've also had carry permits in Mobile or Baldwin Counties since 1985.

Try OC during Marti Gras in Mobile, AL.
Let me know how it goes.

Misty02
07-10-2012, 04:57
Just say....You notice a person in car talking to your neighbors 10yr child and you haven't seen that car in your neighborhood, are you going to wait to see what happens or walk up to that car and ask if you may help them? Maybe not quite the same situation but maybe you could have averted a problem before it happened.

It is the same line of thinking, it is something that looks out of place and raises your level of concern to a point you decide further investigation may be prudent. One may be inclined to approach that vehicle you mention for two reasons: (1) you do not wish to leave your neighbor’s kid there alone with a stranger, (2) you (correctly or not, but have no choice at that point) may believe there would be less immediate danger for the child if you softly and carefully inject yourself in the situation.

It is difficult to make an assessment without being there and knowing what these people knew, but I would assume their impression would be that approaching the person could set them off (assuming there was a possibility his intent was to harm someone). Further investigation to see what could possibly be going on was better done in a more controlled environment by people who had better training in doing so. With three tours of Iraq and an honorable discharge it was quite possible the officers on site could have still been over their head, but the risk could have been higher with the wrong approach by the wrong person.

Oh, and welcome to GT Stephenopolis. :wavey:

.

Misty02
07-10-2012, 05:26
Yes because if you suit up nice and comb your hair, you must not be nuts for walking around with a backpack full of loaded mags for the AR-15 you're walking around with on your back and the pistol you have openly on your hip. Come on man? If you read closley I answered this quesion of yours:

"I don't care what you look like, walking around town (especially going to church) with an AR-15 strung to their shoulder, a pistol on their hip with enough ammo for both to get into an hour long shoot out that is NOT active military or LEO has some serious screws missing from their head. CCW or the occasional pistol OC is one thing, but that guy is just not playing with a full deck."

It's called first impressions, you do it, I do it, everyone does it whether they admit it or not. It's human nature. So don't feed me that "but he could be a good guy on the inside" BS because that just isn't true. That guy is a junkie with mental issues and I'm glad the police arrested him. You want to hire him to watch your kids, be my guest. But that guy looks strung out as all hell. even if he was a "clean cut Gucci suited up guy smelling of aftershave". He's still got mental issues, walking around loaded up like that and I'd still think he's a junkie for walking around with nonprescription Morphine pills. The fact he looks the part just further solidifies it.

First impressions do indeed matter. It is what decides how much more attention we pay one person over another, for different reasons. In this case those first impressions are likely mixed with the previous knowledge of those present. What was their impression of him previous to that day? Was this the straw that broke the camel's back?

It’s all relative; a scruffy unkept beard at church in our area might be enough to look at a person twice, in a town in AL that may not be the case. We have people in military clothing just about anywhere, some are in the reserve and don’t change for errands they run before or after. Some have just flown in or are on their next flight out. It’s rare to see them at church in that attire, but that wouldn’t raise an antenna here (their apperance is otherwise impecable). The rifle would raise all sorts of alarms for us, but may not in other areas. Back-packs are not uncommon here, military back-packs would (I assume he carried his uniform back-pack, although I don't recall reading that). Perhaps no single thing would have raised concern, but when you add them all together I believe it would just about anywhere.

Nonprescription morphine pills may be something someone keeps in their emergency kit for when the SHTF, I read in one of the comments it was not an unusual item in a medic’s kit. However, carrying that around is highly suspicious (to put it mildly).

With the inventory this person was carrying on him at the time, there is no reason to believe the situation is a normal one. Something seems very wrong. It would be interesting to find out what he was thinking or planning.


.

frizz
07-10-2012, 06:48
You have what appears to be an unknown person in a church (private property) where he is not wanted. It doesn’t mention if he had a carry license. It doesn’t say if his handgun was concealed. It appears to be illegal to carry a pistol concealed without a license in AL.

.
Correct. Concealing a handgun requires a permit in Alabama. I have 1st-hand knowledge. I live in AL, and I have had a CCW in the past.

frizz
07-10-2012, 07:05
I don't know what crime he committed. Disorderly conduct doesn't seem to apply, but I don't know what case law has said. If he didn't commit any crime, he may be home free.
Alabama's disorderly conduct statute is here: http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/codeofalabama/1975/13a-11-7.htm

There may have been another crime that would have justified his arrest.

They had the right to do a "stop and pat down" as part of a "Terry Stop" and they would have found the pistol. If he has a permit, he may be OK

Unless he has an Rx for the pills, that is a federal crime per se. If he is an "addict" that is another violation of federal AND state law.

It will boil down to how they found the pills to determine if they are admissible or not. If they had any reason to arrest him without the pills, he's sunk.

I bet that any judge will be inclined to try to find a way to rule the pills as admissible.

frizz
07-10-2012, 07:06
How urban is the area this guy is in? I'm wondering if that scraggly beard isn't relatively normal for his neighborhood?

No offense, but it is Alabama we're talking about here. The remote rural areas may not have a lot of Princeton looking guys...


Fairhope is a pretty nice area. He'd stand out.

Stevekozak
07-10-2012, 07:13
Yes because if you suit up nice and comb your hair, you must not be nuts for walking around with a backpack full of loaded mags for the AR-15 you're walking around with on your back and the pistol you have openly on your hip. Come on man? If you read closley I answered this quesion of yours:

"I don't care what you look like, walking around town (especially going to church) with an AR-15 strung to their shoulder, a pistol on their hip with enough ammo for both to get into an hour long shoot out that is NOT active military or LEO has some serious screws missing from their head. CCW or the occasional pistol OC is one thing, but that guy is just not playing with a full deck."

It's called first impressions, you do it, I do it, everyone does it whether they admit it or not. It's human nature. So don't feed me that "but he could be a good guy on the inside" BS because that just isn't true. That guy is a junkie with mental issues and I'm glad the police arrested him. You want to hire him to watch your kids, be my guest. But that guy looks strung out as all hell. even if he was a "clean cut Gucci suited up guy smelling of aftershave". He's still got mental issues, walking around loaded up like that and I'd still think he's a junkie for walking around with nonprescription Morphine pills. The fact he looks the part just further solidifies it.
I'm not questioning that it was probably an odd and, perhaps, suspicion raising, sight to see a man in church with the gear this man had. I don't think anyone is questioning that part of the issue. What I am questioning, in your case, is that you had made, and stated, a number of assumptions based on what you think you see in his mugshot photo. You and I do not see the same things in that photo, and I doubt that either you or I, taken into police custody, stripped of our belongings, placed in prison clothing and photographed at that point would look particularly dapper or appealing either. We do not have enough information at this point to surmise much about the guy (unless you know something that I don't know). Your statement that you believe that he is a junkie for walking round with non-rx morphine pills, may or may not be true (I suspect that Misty may be right about the presence of those pills), but, your follow-up statement that he "looks the part" continues to be, in my opinion, false. Only time and further information will tell what his intentions were, and what his condition was. FWIW, and I understand that you vehemently disagree with this idea, I will, for one, be very suprised if it turns out that he is indeed "a junkie". Go about your day with peace. :wavey:

Sam Spade
07-10-2012, 07:20
Nonprescription morphine pills may be something someone keeps in their emergency kit for when the SHTF, I read in one of the comments it was not an unusual item in a medic’s kit.

There is no such thing as "nonprescription morphine" in this country. All such is a controlled substance, and there is no way to legally buy it OTC. Safest guess right now is that he stole it from the military.

Bren
07-10-2012, 07:30
And again I ask you: Would you have felt any better about him carrying what he had if had been groomed differently? I am curious about this. BTW, he does have a scraggly beard, but it does not appear to be matted. His face is not sunken in in the photo, he looks quite well-nourished. I have known a lot of junkies from my work, and while you can't tell everything from a picture, he does not, again only in this picture that I have to look at, look like a junkie or strung out.

He may be biggest donkey hole in the world, or a kind misguided soul. I don't have any idea about the dude, as I neither know him or have any information on him other than what is seen in the articles, but judging someone's intent or purpose from a mugshoot photo.....:dunno:

If a guy walks into a chruch wearing a suit and carrying a rifle, I'd be at least as worried as with a guy in camo and a rifle - maybe more so. Bizarre behavior is a warning sign and those are both bizarre in different ways.

I am fairly convinced that many people who have posted in this thread have no need for a gun, because their situational awareness and ability to spot threats is so poor they'd never be able to use one.

My advice is to try to learn to be a little more observant and cognizant of potential threats - the gun is just a tool, like any other weapon. It won't help you if your brain isn't working.

If you are an adult and believe that you shouldn't judge whether someone is dangerous by their looks and actions, this advice will not work for you.

BamaTrooper
07-10-2012, 07:45
Open carry has always been legal in Bama....even with a permit its legal because there is no law that prohibits it and Open Carry is the Right enumerated in the Constitutions of the federal government and AL's state Constitution

The minute you sit in your car=concealed carry though.

BamaTrooper
07-10-2012, 07:49
Still not reading. I know the legalties. I've also had carry permits in Mobile or Baldwin Counties since 1985.

Try OC during Marti Gras in Mobile, AL.
Let me know how it goes.

Slightly less well than CC would if it went to court.:tongueout:

BamaTrooper
07-10-2012, 07:55
13a-11-50 through 13A-11-85 are the laws pertaining to weapons.

Bullman
07-10-2012, 08:10
I know that some states have laws specifically prohibiting being armed at religious services. Does Alabama?

engineer151515
07-10-2012, 12:05
Slightly less well than CC would if it went to court.:tongueout:

Hello, Bama.

Always good to see you post.

MasterShake
07-10-2012, 12:25
I'm not questioning that it was probably an odd and, perhaps, suspicion raising, sight to see a man in church with the gear this man had. I don't think anyone is questioning that part of the issue. What I am questioning, in your case, is that you had made, and stated, a number of assumptions based on what you think you see in his mugshot photo. You and I do not see the same things in that photo, and I doubt that either you or I, taken into police custody, stripped of our belongings, placed in prison clothing and photographed at that point would look particularly dapper or appealing either. We do not have enough information at this point to surmise much about the guy (unless you know something that I don't know). Your statement that you believe that he is a junkie for walking round with non-rx morphine pills, may or may not be true (I suspect that Misty may be right about the presence of those pills), but, your follow-up statement that he "looks the part" continues to be, in my opinion, false. Only time and further information will tell what his intentions were, and what his condition was. FWIW, and I understand that you vehemently disagree with this idea, I will, for one, be very suprised if it turns out that he is indeed "a junkie". Go about your day with peace. :wavey:
If you are telling me you don't have first impressions of anyone without talking to them first, you are LYING. Everyone does it, it's human nature. You know my impression of him so like I said, if you trust that face, don't think he's a nut, don't think he's not a junkie for walking around with nonprescription Morphine (which is essentially synthetic Heroin) and would hire a guy that looks like that to watch your kids or for ANYTHING, GO for it. Just remember here, you sought out to challenge my opinion here. You're not going to change it or make me realize anything. If anything, you are just looking gullible and ignorant to me. So just drop it.

Jon_R
07-10-2012, 12:26
New Link Maybe

Not sure if this link has been posted yet or not.

http://blog.al.com/live/2012/07/charges_added_against_man_accu.html

Fairhope Police Chief Bill Press said Friday that police also plan to file a charge of carrying a firearm into a public place.

If that is an actual crime then not sure how Open Carry is legal in Al when it is.....

Honorable Discharged Marine three tours in Iraq. My guess is not terrorist or Jihadist as has been proposed in the thread. He may have made some bad choices but I personally don't think he was on the verge of killing people with his unloaded no mag rifle as he just sat their waiting. He had means and opportunity yet chose to just hang out. he could have killed numerous people yet chose not to. He was a potential threat as is everyone.

engineer151515
07-10-2012, 12:35
I know that some states have laws specifically prohibiting being armed at religious services. Does Alabama?

Not enumerated specifically but our weapons law does prohibit concealed carry of bowie style knives brass knuckles, slingshots and walking cane rifles/shotguns.

There must have been some problems in the past with those.

But. . . I am not a lawyer, nor have I played one on tv.



And... Bullman rocks.

Stevekozak
07-10-2012, 13:01
If you are telling me you don't have first impressions of anyone without talking to them first, you are LYING. Everyone does it, it's human nature. You know my impression of him so like I said, if you trust that face, don't think he's a nut, don't think he's not a junkie for walking around with nonprescription Morphine (which is essentially synthetic Heroin) and would hire a guy that looks like that to watch your kids or for ANYTHING, GO for it. Just remember here, you sought out to challenge my opinion here. You're not going to change it or make me realize anything. If anything, you are just looking gullible and ignorant to me. So just drop it.
You, sir, need to to get to back up off it and set your cup down. You are taking an internet discussion way too personal. I am not sure just how you have twice now jumped from my saying the person in question does not look like a strungout junkie in his mugshot to my hiring said individual to watch my kids. As to my challenging your opinion, no challenge was issued. I do submit, however, that you might want to challenge your mind to think a bit more critically and a lot less emotionally. Do try to live at least the rest of your day in peace. :wavey:

Bullman
07-10-2012, 13:01
It is important to Rock if at all possible :supergrin:

You rock too you know, the brains behind the NS empire :drink:

MasterShake
07-10-2012, 14:14
You, sir, need to to get to back up off it and set your cup down. You are taking an internet discussion way too personal. I am not sure just how you have twice now jumped from my saying the person in question does not look like a strungout junkie in his mugshot to my hiring said individual to watch my kids. As to my challenging your opinion, no challenge was issued. I do submit, however, that you might want to challenge your mind to think a bit more critically and a lot less emotionally. Do try to live at least the rest of your day in peace. :wavey:
That is a bunch of BS, you could have looked at my post, shook your head and moved on. Instead, you decided to challenge it. You did, by quoting my post, questioning me on it, and sticking your 2 cents in, you challenged it. So instead of trying to change my opinion on anything or shead light on anything to me, why don't you take some of your own advice "back up off it and set your cup down" and just move on and let it go. :dunno:

wjv
07-10-2012, 14:57
Actually sounds like the reporter who wrote this story knows something about firearms. . .

semi-automatic instead of automatic or machine gun
magazine instead of clip
ammunition instead of bullets
9 millimeter instead of caliber or inch

BamaBud
07-10-2012, 15:12
There are lots of questions about Alabama laws.

!. Carry in church is legal.
2. Open Carry is nominally legal, but WILL get you hassled in many areas. You want more info, you can go to:
http://www.alabamaopencarry.com/


BTW: Fairhope is one of the MOST Leftist areas of Alabama. It started as a utopian single-tax colony (and still retains that status for about 1500-2000 properties in its area) and has gradually become an artists and "intellectuals" mecca. It's no wonder that someone called the police on this guy.


It looks like the Fairhope police are now trying to charge him on the following statute, despite the last line of subsection C (I would assume that a church is usually private property, but IF it falls under the single-tax designated properties, it may not be). The more pressing legal interpretation would be: Is a church service considered a "demonstration" under the following?

Section 13A-11-59
Possession of firearms by persons participating in, attending, etc., demonstrations at public places.
(a) For the purposes of this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this subsection, except in those instances where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:

(1) DEMONSTRATION. Demonstrating, picketing, speechmaking or marching, holding of vigils and all other like forms of conduct which involve the communication or expression of views or grievances engaged in by one or more persons, the conduct of which has the effect, intent or propensity to draw a crowd or onlookers. Such term shall not include casual use of property by visitors or tourists which does not have an intent or propensity to attract a crowd or onlookers.

(2) FIREARM. Any pistol, rifle, shotgun or firearm of any kind, whether loaded or not.

(3) LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. Any duly appointed and acting federal, state, county or municipal law enforcement officer, peace officer or investigating officer, or any military or militia personnel called out or directed by constituted authority to keep the law and order, and any park ranger while acting as such on the grounds of a public park and who is on regular duty and present to actively police and control the demonstration, and who is assigned this duty by his department or agency. Such term does not include a peace officer on strike or a peace officer not on duty.

(4) PUBLIC PLACE. Any place to which the general public has access and a right to resort for business, entertainment or other lawful purpose, but does not necessarily mean a place devoted solely to the uses of the public. Such term shall include the front or immediate area or parking lot of any store, shop, restaurant, tavern, shopping center or other place of business. Such term shall also include any public building, the grounds of any public building, or within the curtilage of any public building, or in any public parking lot, public street, right-of-way, sidewalk right-of-way, or within any public park or other public grounds.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer, to have in his or her possession or on his or her person or in any vehicle any firearm while participating in or attending any demonstration being held at a public place.

(c) It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a law enforcement officer as defined in subsection (a) of this section, to have in his or her possession or about his or her person or in any vehicle at a point within 1,000 feet of a demonstration at a public place, any firearm after having first been advised by a law enforcement officer that a demonstration was taking place at a public place and after having been ordered by such officer to remove himself or herself from the prescribed area until such time as he or she no longer was in possession of any firearm. This subsection shall not apply to any person in possession of or having on his or her person any firearm within a private dwelling or other private building or structure.

(d) Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished as provided by law.

(Acts 1979, No. 79-455, p. 743; Code 1975, §13-6-131.)

As reference ,the laws are available here:
http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/codeofalabama/1975/coatoc.htm

Misty02
07-10-2012, 20:49
There is no such thing as "nonprescription morphine" in this country. All such is a controlled substance, and there is no way to legally buy it OTC. Safest guess right now is that he stole it from the military.

I assumed it was not legal to possess. I was just trying to find a possible logic for him having them, and then read one of the comments in the article. It would kind of justify it in my mind if he had it at home with the rest of the SHTF stuff, I just couldn’t extend it to carrying it with him.


.

Sam Spade
07-10-2012, 21:38
I assumed it was not legal to possess. I was just trying to find a possible logic for him having them, and then read one of the comments in the article. It would kind of justify it in my mind if he had it at home with the rest of the SHTF stuff, I just couldn’t extend it to carrying it with him.


.

Some Army units (few) issue kits with battlepacks of meds. Generally, a wide spectrum antibiotic like Cipro, pain killers like a fentanyl lollipop or morphine and such. I don't know about the Marines, but that's the logical source given his background and other gear.

Patchman
07-11-2012, 05:07
I know there is at least one, probably three posters here on GT who are members of their churchs' armed security team.

I don't know if they've posted (I didn't read the entire 10 pages or so), but I wonder if this is the type of scenario the teams train for (man with gun walking into service and sits down), or is their protocol to act only after "something more" develops?

Mayhem like Me
07-11-2012, 11:47
I know there is at least one, probably three posters here on GT who are members of their churchs' armed security team.

I don't know if they've posted (I didn't read the entire 10 pages or so), but I wonder if this is the type of scenario the teams train for (man with gun walking into service and sits down), or is their protocol to act only after "something more" develops?

I am on ours and it's not a problem in GA he is violating the law if he is armed and not an officer in a church.

I would have had someone call and tail him to his seat and sit behind him, if in plainclothes, in uniform , I would escort him outside and immediatley cuff and disarm him, (It is against GA law to be armed in a church )

rmodel65
07-11-2012, 12:13
I am on ours and it's not a problem in GA he is violating the law if he is armed and not an officer in a church.

I would have had someone call and tail him to his seat and sit behind him, if in plainclothes, in uniform , I would escort him outside and immediatley cuff and disarm him, (It is against GA law to be armed in a church )


It is not against the law to be armed in a church if you're exempt like police there is a whole list of exemptions under OCGA 16-11-130 (http://georgiapacking.org/GaCode/?title=16&chapter=11&section=130)


but its also not illegal to carry certain long guns to a church either...a long gun with a barrel length of 18+ inches is illegal but something like an AR etc with a 16 inch barrel is perfectly legal take note the definition of a long gun and of hand gun (http://georgiapacking.org/GaCode/?title=16&chapter=11&section=125.1)

also a hand gun with say a 12.5 inch barrel would also be legal to carry to church and any other place off limits to people with a license...


http://georgiapacking.org/GaCode/?title=16&chapter=11&section=127
b) A person shall be guilty of carrying a weapon or long gun in an unauthorized location and punished as for a misdemeanor when he or she carries a weapon or long gun while:

(1) In a government building;

(2) In a courthouse;

(3) In a jail or prison;

(4) In a place of worship;


the right rifle would be 100% legal to carry

Mayhem like Me
07-11-2012, 12:15
It is not against the law to be armed in a church if you're exempt like police there is a whole list of exemptions under OCGA 16-11-130 (http://georgiapacking.org/GaCode/?title=16&chapter=11&section=130)


but its also not illegal to carry certain long guns to a church either...a long gun with a barrel length of 18+ inches is illegal but something like an AR etc with a 16 inch barrel is perfectly legal take note the definition of a long gun and of hand gun (http://georgiapacking.org/GaCode/?title=16&chapter=11&section=125.1)

also a hand gun with say a 12.5 inch barrel would also be legal to carry to church and any other place off limits to people with a license...


http://georgiapacking.org/GaCode/?title=16&chapter=11&section=127



the right rifle would be 100% legal to carry

No it is not legal to bring them in a church in GA you are mistaken.

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rmodel65
07-11-2012, 12:20
i assume you didnt read the OCGA i posted and the definitions of long gun did you??

Mayhem like Me
07-11-2012, 12:26
i assume you didnt read the OCGA i posted and the definitions of long gun did you??

You did assume ..and you are wrong..you cannot carry a rifle in to a church in GA unlesd you fit the exemption and read them carefully many require you to be on duty or working at the time...
But what do I know i only teach this as a court required course for those that violate the law..

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rmodel65
07-11-2012, 12:29
There is no "exemption" needed for a 16-17.99999inch barrel length rifle it has been legal since 2010 with the passage of senate bill 308 they are also legal to carry in government buildings, court houses, bars, nuclear power facilities etc

here is quite a few pages on this topic....

http://georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=46774&hilit=long+gun+church+legal

Mayhem like Me
07-11-2012, 12:36
There is no "exemption" needed for a 16-17.99999inch barrel length rifle it has been legal since 2010 with the passage of senate bill 308 they are also legal to carry in government buildings, court houses, bars, nuclear power facilities etc

here is quite a few pages on this topic....

http://georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=46774&hilit=long+gun+church+legal

sorry you are wrong it is deadly weapon covered here.
http://www1.legis.ga.gov/legis/2009_10/versions/sb308_SB308_APP_23.htm

rmodel65
07-11-2012, 12:43
your link proved me right....


"16-11-125.1.
As used in this part, the term:
(1) 'Handgun' means a firearm of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharged by an action of an explosive where the length of the barrel, not including any revolving, detachable, or magazine breech, does not exceed 12 inches; provided, however, that the term 'handgun' shall not include a gun which discharges a single shot of .46 centimeters or less in diameter.
(2) 'Knife' means a cutting instrument designed for the purpose of offense and defense consisting of a blade that is greater than five inches in length which is fastened to a handle.
(3) 'License holder' means a person who holds a valid weapons carry license.
(4) 'Long gun' means a firearm with a barrel length of at least 18 inches and overall length of at least 26 inches designed or made and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or made to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed:
(A) Shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger or from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharged; or
(B) Metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifle bore for each single pull of the trigger;
provided, however, that the term 'long gun' shall not include a gun which discharges a single shot of .46 centimeters or less in diameter.
(5) 'Weapon' means a knife or handgun.
(6) 'Weapons carry license' or 'license' means a license issued pursuant to Code Section 16-11-129."

Mayhem like Me
07-11-2012, 12:52
your link proved me right....

Try it and see?
I am correct.
You missed the or not preceeded by an and here
OR

B) Metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifle bore for each single pull of the trigger;

Try it and see carry your SBR into a church you will go to jail...

rmodel65
07-11-2012, 12:55
Try it and see?
I am correct.
You missed the or not preceeded by an and here
OR

B) Metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifle bore for each single pull of the trigger;

Try it and see carry your SBR into a church you will go to jail...



a metallic cartridge is not a weapon nor a long gun...and what are you talking about the "or not proceeded by an and here"

Mayhem like Me
07-11-2012, 13:01
like I said try it and see...

That site is waiting for a test case,

rmodel65
07-11-2012, 13:06
I see what youre talking about now....

(4) 'Long gun' means a firearm with a barrel length of at least 18 inches and overall length of at least 26 inches designed or made and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or made to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed:
(A) Shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger or from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharged; or
(B) Metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifle bore for each single pull of the trigger;
provided, however, that the term 'long gun' shall not include a gun which discharges a single shot of .46 centimeters or less in diameter.


in the definition is it quite clear.. it must meet the 18 inch length AND be 26 inches overall length or be made and intended to be fired from the shoulder......


but if it doesnt have an 18 inch barrel it is not a long run ever.... under the definition of a handgun it has to have a 12 inch barrel or less. so a lot of NFA guns are also legal to be carried in off limit locations like SBS, SBR etc etc

Mayhem like Me
07-11-2012, 13:13
hence my refernce... the SBR owner will still get a ride while the court figures out what the idiots that wrote this law intended...

I am a member of the websites you show and also think banning ccw in churches is a bit much...it is a mess, but its the law we have right now.

DanaT
07-12-2012, 14:27
under the definition of a handgun it has to have a 12 inch barrel or less. so a lot of NFA guns are also legal to be carried in off limit locations like SBS, SBR etc etc

What is a T/c contender with a 14"
Barrel? They sell many of them.



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rmodel65
07-12-2012, 15:26
What is a T/c contender with a 14"
Barrel? They sell many of them.



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under GA law for off limits places its completely unregulated....at the federal level its what ever its defined as but thats irrelevant for GA law and off limits places

Sharky7
07-21-2012, 21:10
Bump.

"Officers called to the church found the suspect with a .223-caliber semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm pistol. Hernandez also had 150 rounds of rifle ammunition and 30 rounds of pistol bullets in nine clips for the weapons, according to a Fairhope police report.He also had six morphine pills in his possession.......Hernandez was wearing a backpack and military fatigue uniform."





Anyone see similarities? Re-read what you wrote before and digest the big picture.

Sharky7
07-21-2012, 21:17
police arresting someone that is not breaking the law, but behaving in a manner they deem "inappropriate"

unpossible! :rofl:

Wasn't James Holmes legally open carrying along with wearing his body armor when he entered the back door? If an officer would have seen him walking in - is your comment above applicable?