Why separate politics from a person's other efforts [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Old School
07-05-2012, 08:12
Over in GNG there was a thread about Andy Griffith's death. I replied something along the lines that, while I enjoyed his on screen personna, I didn't care for his real life politics. My reply, along with some others that were quite a bit more crass, were deleted and was directed to post politics in this forum.

It made me think. When remembering a person in death, why should we separate their active politics from their other actions? I could understand if the person did not voluntarily enter politics and tried to stay out (e.g., a politician's child). But in this case Andy Griffith worked to elect a lot of gun control politicians. I imagine that the folks over at the Brady Bunch are remembering that with fondness, but in GlockTalk we have to edit our replies so that we only remember what is judged to be appropriate or decent - even if it only existed on a TV show.

steve1988
07-05-2012, 08:16
I think the issue is more that it is in bad taste to speak ill of the recently deceased. A grossly exaggerated example would be protesting at someone's funeral. I think that is something we can all agree is uncalled for.

ETA: I did not read that particular thread.

Old School
07-05-2012, 08:30
Hi Steve, thanks for the reply. I agree there is the issue of decency and as I noted, some of the comments were pretty bad. But what if there was a muched loved icon - say the actor who played Big Bird or Mr. Rogers or someone like that. Then say that we later found out that they committed horrific crimes for much of their life. Really bad stuff like child abuse. Upon their death, would we then be bound by decency to only remember a loved TV persona?

There is a fine line somewhere, I know. Maybe it's just me, but when a person jumps out into politics, I think it's fair game to include that in their remembrance.

ETA - yes, I agree. No protesting at funerals, scope of discussion is about internet forum posting.

steve1988
07-05-2012, 08:54
Hi Steve, thanks for the reply. I agree there is the issue of decency and as I noted, some of the comments were pretty bad. But what if there was a muched loved icon - say the actor who played Big Bird or Mr. Rogers or someone like that. Then say that we later found out that they committed horrific crimes for much of their life. Really bad stuff like child abuse. Upon their death, would we then be bound by decency to only remember a loved TV persona?

There is a fine line somewhere, I know. Maybe it's just me, but when a person jumps out into politics, I think it's fair game to include that in their remembrance.

ETA - yes, I agree. No protesting at funerals, scope of discussion is about internet forum posting.

I believe that the "line," for me, is measure of that person's intent. Would you say that Mr. Griffith was willfully acting out a nefarious conspiracy to deprive Americans of their rights? Or would you say that he probably had the best intentions, but you don't agree with his actions? If it is the latter, then I would say a public commentary on those actions would be in bad taste.

ETA: The funeral comment was a bad example. Consider it retracted.

gwalchmai
07-05-2012, 09:07
Would you not say that Sarah Brady has good intentions? I think she does, but her view of the world and the effects of her intentions are completely incompatible with mine. I don't think I could say good things at her funeral.

steve1988
07-05-2012, 09:10
Would you not say that Sarah Brady has good intentions? I think she does, but her view of the world and the effects of her intentions are completely incompatible with mine. I don't think I could say good things at her funeral.

I would agree with you. That is why I would revert to the old saying: "If you don't have anything nice to say..."

evlbruce
07-05-2012, 09:23
I believe that the "line," for me, is measure of that person's intent. Would you say that Mr. Griffith was willfully acting out a nefarious conspiracy to deprive Americans of their rights? Or would you say that he probably had the best intentions, but you don't agree with his actions? If it is the latter, then I would say a public commentary on those actions would be in bad taste.

ETA: The funeral comment was a bad example. Consider it retracted.

The vast majority of people in this world either think that their are doing good or don't think about the morality of their actions: I can't think of any world leader who intentionally set out to do evil to their nation.

The Khmer Rouge thought themselves a bunch of swell guys intent on leading the Cambodian people to a socialist utopia.

ChuteTheMall
07-05-2012, 09:36
The evil men do lives after them;
the good is oft interred with their bones.

I don't believe death excuses past behavior, but I'm not the final Judge.




If someone's political misbehavior needs to be discussed, Political Issues would be the better forum for that.

:deadhorse:

JBnTX
07-05-2012, 09:41
If actors, comedians, musicians and other public figures can't separate their politics from their livelihood, then why should I?

Snowman92D
07-05-2012, 09:44
http://www.dailypaul.com/77106/andy-griffith-propaganda

:popcorn:

ChuteTheMall
07-05-2012, 09:55
http://www.dailypaul.com/77106/andy-griffith-propaganda

:popcorn:

That was pretty entertaining, but why wasn't Floyd the barber outed?:pjmn:

snerd
07-05-2012, 10:04
Just like the rest of the Hollywood elite, he was a flaming liberal trying to push his liberal ideology onto the rest of America from his soapbox. They all look down their noses at us, the unwashed, ignorant masses. But they don't have to give account to me for their lives lived.

gwalchmai
07-05-2012, 10:08
I always figured Helen for a commie feminazi.

snerd
07-05-2012, 12:24
I always figured Helen for a commie feminazi.
I figured Howard Sprague and Floyd the barber had a sicko, secret tryst behind the scenes. :supergrin:

snerd
07-05-2012, 12:26
And this one turned out the most liberal of them all!


http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/61500/Ron-Howard-in-Pink-Floyd-T-Shirt--61798.jpg

barbedwiresmile
07-05-2012, 12:33
We do ourselves a disservice when we fail to hold public figures accountable for the repercussions of their political views - particularly when we are running over 100% debt:GDP.

That would include the recently deceased. Criticism and fact-based observation can be communicated respectfully, and in a matter-of-fact tone. So as a matter of fact, those who have supported the over-reaching, over-spending, over-regulating state, in direct opposition to our founding ideals, deserve to be criticized.

whoflungdo
07-05-2012, 12:49
I was the only one in my office to notice or point out the liberal politics of Andy Griffith. While I liked his show and have fond memories of watching it with my family and reruns with my children, I did not like the politics of the actor. I pointed out this several "conservative" friends and co-workers...

Old School
07-05-2012, 13:01
Say that a reply on an internet forum was:

"I loved his show, it was great part of growing up and I still like the reruns as it reminds me of a more simple time. His politics supported a lot of gun control."

If that was posted on the DU, it's celebratory. If the exact same words are posted on GT then it's in bad taste. I can't put it into words, but it doesn't seem right.

gwalchmai
07-05-2012, 13:19
I never got any anti-gun vibes from Andy Taylor, irregardless of Andy Griffith's politics.

eracer
07-05-2012, 13:27
How many of us are as pure in our deeds as we are in our words?

cowboy1964
07-05-2012, 14:16
I don't quite get the point of this thread. I don't like the politics of say Matt Damon but I do like the politics of say Tom Selleck. So what?

Old School
07-05-2012, 14:32
The question in my original post was: When remembering a person in death, why should we separate their active politics from their other actions?

eracer
07-05-2012, 14:51
Again, who among us is pure of word and deed?

Human beings are multi-faceted creatures, capable of an almost endless combination of thoughts, acts, and ideas. Most of those we claim to despise have good traits that we either ignore, or fail to learn of.

If you hate someone for their politics, and discount the rest of what makes them who they are (insofar as you can possibly know them) then you are being shallow and conceited.

That's your right, but accept the fact that when you disparage a person in death who was widely considered a good person just because of his politics, you stand with people who can't see the value in empathy.

JFrame
07-05-2012, 15:10
Again, who among us is pure of word and deed?


"Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night, may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."

:wolf:



.

gwalchmai
07-05-2012, 15:17
It's important to remember that the characters we watch in photoplays (a good word we'd do well to use more often) are not the same as the actors who portray those characters. To forget that is a disservice to them both.

certifiedfunds
07-05-2012, 15:43
I can't associate or be friendly with leftists. Their politics is an imposition on me. They vote for people who seize my money and restrict my liberty. That's personal.

ChuteTheMall
07-05-2012, 16:15
Human beings are multi-faceted creatures, capable of an almost endless combination of thoughts, acts, and ideas. Most of those we claim to despise have good traits that we either ignore, or fail to learn of.


I could name a dog-loving vegetarian artist, but this thread isn't ready for Godwin's Law.
:whistling:

GAFinch
07-05-2012, 23:23
While it is hard separating politics from the person, but it's impossible to logically implement since it's not just about hating the ~20% of the population that's actually liberal. If you factor in the well-meaning moderates who vote Democrat and, therefore, end up supporting the liberal politics of the Democratic leadership, you end up hating 50% of people you know.

If you extend this to Hollywood, you end up hating 95% of actors and, since virtually no show or movie will ever include only the 5% of non-Democrats, you end up becoming a right wing religious freak with no common cultural base with everyone who you know.

steve1988
07-05-2012, 23:35
I can't associate or be friendly with leftists. Their politics is an imposition on me. They vote for people who seize my money and restrict my liberty. That's personal.

This is an attitude that I absolutely cannot get behind. If no conservative/libertarian/classical liberal/whatever you want to call yourself ever associated with people of differing views, except in a confrontational or antagonistic manner, then we would have no hope whatsoever of reaching the left. I keep my political conversations with friends and family friendly and rational. I find that if I do that, then they are more likely to examine their views and why they hold them. If I insult or alienate them, then people who hold my views aren't "real" to them. We are just the "unenlightened ones." When we hold that status, we get marginalized. Marginalization will be the death of conservatism.

certifiedfunds
07-06-2012, 22:21
This is an attitude that I absolutely cannot get behind. If no conservative/libertarian/classical liberal/whatever you want to call yourself ever associated with people of differing views, except in a confrontational or antagonistic manner, then we would have no hope whatsoever of reaching the left. I keep my political conversations with friends and family friendly and rational. I find that if I do that, then they are more likely to examine their views and why they hold them. If I insult or alienate them, then people who hold my views aren't "real" to them. We are just the "unenlightened ones." When we hold that status, we get marginalized. Marginalization will be the death of conservatism.

ok...

I really have lost hope for converting leftist. Their brains just don't function properly. Too much estrogen in the womb I think. I take a keener interest in just defeating them.

Converting neocons gives a better ROI. I still find it a worthwhile pursuit.

Foxtrotx1
07-06-2012, 23:00
Do you watch TV? listen to music? watch movies?? They all have liberals in them or are run by liberals. If you can't separate politics from talent then you are limiting yourself a lot IMO.

cowboywannabe
07-06-2012, 23:17
Over in GNG there was a thread about Andy Griffith's death. I replied something along the lines that, while I enjoyed his on screen personna, I didn't care for his real life politics. My reply, along with some others that were quite a bit more crass, were deleted and was directed to post politics in this forum.

It made me think. When remembering a person in death, why should we separate their active politics from their other actions? I could understand if the person did not voluntarily enter politics and tried to stay out (e.g., a politician's child). But in this case Andy Griffith worked to elect a lot of gun control politicians. I imagine that the folks over at the Brady Bunch are remembering that with fondness, but in GlockTalk we have to edit our replies so that we only remember what is judged to be appropriate or decent - even if it only existed on a TV show.

his on sceen persona as well as off screen is who he was.

i will speak fondly of his on screen personas, not so fondly of his off screen. he chose to be remembered that way, not i.

JFrame
07-07-2012, 08:15
ok...

I really have lost hope for converting leftist. Their brains just don't function properly. Too much estrogen in the womb I think. I take a keener interest in just defeating them.

Converting neocons gives a better ROI. I still find it a worthwhile pursuit.


In general, it's easy to sniff out the D.U. trolls, and those who are otherwise so entrenched in their views that they come here itching for a fight. The ones who come here with genuine intellectual curiosity, sincerity, and desire for challenging conversation/debate also tend to project that outlook (e.g., I'm Such a Bird).


.

Gunboat1
07-07-2012, 13:06
I can't associate or be friendly with leftists. Their politics is an imposition on me. They vote for people who seize my money and restrict my liberty. That's personal.

Amen; truer words were never spoken. Liberals are domestic enemies of the Constitution - by definition.

G29Reload
07-07-2012, 13:45
Over in GNG there was a thread about Andy Griffith's death. I replied something along the lines that, while I enjoyed his on screen personna, I didn't care for his real life politics. My reply, along with some others that were quite a bit more crass, were deleted and was directed to post politics in this forum.

It made me think. When remembering a person in death, why should we separate their active politics from their other actions? I could understand if the person did not voluntarily enter politics and tried to stay out (e.g., a politician's child). But in this case Andy Griffith worked to elect a lot of gun control politicians. I imagine that the folks over at the Brady Bunch are remembering that with fondness, but in GlockTalk we have to edit our replies so that we only remember what is judged to be appropriate or decent - even if it only existed on a TV show.

In his later days, he actively and publicly supported Obama care.

He was a doofus as far as I was concerned.

So, as far as peeing on the campfire of all the kumbayas about Mayberry RFD, enjoy the pitchfork in your butt, Andy.

Good riddance.

G29Reload
07-07-2012, 13:47
I can't associate or be friendly with leftists. Their politics is an imposition on me. They vote for people who seize my money and restrict my liberty. That's personal.

Same here. +10000000000000000

I can't be friends with enemies of our country.

certifiedfunds
07-07-2012, 16:02
Same here. +10000000000000000

I can't be friends with enemies of our country.

Not all perspectives are worthy of respect or tolerance.


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certifiedfunds
07-07-2012, 16:03
In his later days, he actively and publicly supported Obama care.

He was a doofus as far as I was concerned.

So, as far as peeing on the campfire of all the kumbayas about Mayberry RFD, enjoy the pitchfork in your butt, Andy.

Good riddance.

Agreed



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fortyofforty
07-08-2012, 06:20
I was going to make a comment about Hitler, Stalin and Mao, and how there was no reason to speak positively about them after their deaths. However, since the Natsos share so much in terms of their ideology with these three historical, leftwing Socialist icons, I decided not to make that point.

Dexters
07-08-2012, 06:27
Over in GNG there was a thread about Andy Griffith's death. I replied something along the lines that, while I enjoyed his on screen personna, I didn't care for his real life politics. My reply, along with some others that were quite a bit more crass, were deleted and was directed to post politics in this forum.

It made me think. When remembering a person in death, why should we separate their active politics from their other actions? I could understand if the person did not voluntarily enter politics and tried to stay out (e.g., a politician's child). But in this case Andy Griffith worked to elect a lot of gun control politicians. I imagine that the folks over at the Brady Bunch are remembering that with fondness, but in GlockTalk we have to edit our replies so that we only remember what is judged to be appropriate or decent - even if it only existed on a TV show.

AG was a public figure and used that relationship with the public for his benefit and agenda.

If, AG were a racist, and used his celebrity to promote racism - would anyone separate/omit that when discussing his life?

Another aspect is that AG represented a certain life - country/rural. If you said some thing bad about AG; to them you are saying some thing about country/rural values.

kenpoprofessor
07-08-2012, 07:29
I was the only one on my FB friends to point out the fact that ole Andy had some severe left leaning politics. Amazingly, people quit posting good things about him immediately after :supergrin:. In fact, they didn't post about his passing again, it was irrelevant news when they found out that Andy actively worked against our interests in his real life.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde