Looking for personal opinions... Yeah, as if you're afraid to speak up ;) [Archive] - Glock Talk

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PettyOfficer
07-08-2012, 17:59
I'm looking to start pinching and saving for my next purchase... Including working OT as I can get it.

However, it'll be quite awhile before I'll be making a purchase, so I have time to research and plan.

I'm looking for home defense & maximum range fun. I have in mind two ideas and I'd like to hear folks views on both.

Please own or have experience with what you recommend.

A) KRISS Vector SBR .45 ACP (http://www.kriss-usa.com/products/short-barrel-rifles/sbr-45-acp)

or

B) AR platform SBR in .223/5.56 with a few tacticool items like a mounted light and mounted camera.

I wouldn't mind a 308/7.62/300AAC but think its overkill for a suburban environment (don't want to shoot through my neighbors houses).

I really like the KRISS, I've rented it before and already own a G30 and the mags would work for my backup... So that fact goes a long way to overcome the cost differential with an AR platform.

Yes, I'm aware I'll need a tax stamp, and I live in Texas, so there no state law issue in the way.

The_Gun_Guru
07-08-2012, 18:03
Your link doesn't work.


TGG

The_Gun_Guru
07-08-2012, 18:07
An SBR for HD? NOT a very smart idea!

One incident and the ATF takes it.....FOREVER!!!!!

Get a 12 gauge Remington 870 and call it a day. If that is confiscated, so what? Buy another!!!

TGG

ronin.45
07-08-2012, 18:12
Suppressed AR SBR in 9mm!

Great inside a house for HD and you can't have more fun at he range. 9mm is also about half the cost of .223 again so you can shoot it twice as much. It's also welcome at indoor ranges where a .223 isn't.

M&P15T
07-08-2012, 18:19
Yeah...SBR ARs are strictly toys......super loud, super concussive toys. Just get a 14.5" AR or a shotgun.

dajcarroll
07-08-2012, 18:32
I'm looking to start pinching and saving for my next purchase... Including working OT as I can get it.

However, it'll be quite awhile before I'll be making a purchase, so I have time to research and plan.

I'm looking for home defense & maximum range fun. I have in mind two ideas and I'd like to hear folks views on both.

Please own or have experience with what you recommend.

A) http://www.kriss-usa.com/products/short-barrel-rifles/sbr-45-acp (KRISS Vector SBR .45 ACP)

or

B) AR platform SBR in .223/5.56 with a few tacticool items like a mounted light and mounted camera.

I wouldn't mind a 308/7.62/300AAC but think its overkill for a suburban environment (don't want to shoot through my neighbors houses).

I really like the KRISS, I've rented it before and already own a G30 and the mags would work for my backup... So that fact goes a long way to overcome the cost differential with an AR platform.

Yes, I'm aware I'll need a tax stamp, and I live in Texas, so there no state law issue in the way.

You want both home defense and cheapest on range ammo? If it's a handgun you want go 9mm. Walmart has target ammo for $12 per 50 (Federal) $9 if you use steel cased ammo (Tul-Ammo). Defense ammo is about $20 for 25. If you want a long gun get a 12 gauge. Target ammo is about $6 per 25 (#8 birdshot), and defense ammo is about $6 for 6 (00 Magnum Buckshot). I'd recommend either. Others will recommend different things. It's all what you are comfortable with. I personally have 3 guns loaded and ready to go at all times... My Glock 37 (.45 GAP), Glock 19 (9mm), and my NEF 12 gauge with 00 buckshot. Shotgun is single shot... so I have to have a backup.



G19 - Gen 3
G37 - Gen 3
NEF Pardner SBI 12 Ga.
Savage Model 24 - .22LR/410

PettyOfficer
07-08-2012, 19:14
Your link doesn't work.
TGG
Fixed.. Thanks.

PettyOfficer
07-08-2012, 19:29
An SBR for HD? NOT a very smart idea!

One incident and the ATF takes it.....FOREVER!!!!!

Get a 12 gauge Remington 870 and call it a day. If that is confiscated, so what? Buy another!!!

TGG

A) SBRs are designed for close quarters.
B) I'm in Texas, I can legally shoot anybody within my house illegally, will be able to recover my firearm.
C) shotguns are long guns and are unwieldy in close quarters environments. 12G Shotguns are more concussive than .223 any day!

I did think about getting a 12g Saiga and putting it in a Center Balanced Systems bullpup (http://www.cbrps.com/Products.html) for CQ purposes. It's not 'as much' range fun as an AR or KRISS, but the ammo variability has distinct advantages.


You want both home defense and cheapest on range ammo? If it's a handgun you want go 9mm.
Thanks, but it's not a handgun that I want. I have plenty of experience with handguns, I'm aware of models and ammo types, prices, etc.

S&WShooter
07-08-2012, 19:34
I don't get the idea behind and AR in 9mm or a SBR in .45, if you are going to have a rifle why not use a rifle round??? I get the fact its more easy to hit your target etc. but why not have the extra punch of a rifle round since you are carrying a rifle?

I vote for the SBR AR for that reason.

faawrenchbndr
07-08-2012, 19:39
14.5" AR suppressed.......less chance of over penetration vs 9mm or 45

PettyOfficer
07-08-2012, 19:43
I don't get the idea behind and AR in 9mm or a SBR in .45, if you are going to have a rifle why not use a rifle round??? I get the fact its more easy to hit your target etc. but why not have the extra punch of a rifle round since you are carrying a rifle?

I vote for the SBR AR for that reason.

Do yourself a favor and find a KRISS to shoot, it's amazing (read a few articles too). I've experienced the joy of rapid fire/same hole! The KRISS is a bit too big for just a pistol due to its engineering marvels, but I could buy the stockless pistol version just prefer the stock. As well, as a tactical SBR its shorter and more accurate than an MP5.

I'm really hoping somebody with a KRISS responds with their experience. It's hard to put it down once you pick it up.

arclight610
07-08-2012, 19:47
300 Blackout. Now.

PettyOfficer
07-08-2012, 19:49
14.5" AR suppressed.......less chance of over penetration vs 9mm or 45

So you'd recommend a 20" AR for CQB home defense? The 14.5"+ suppressor (5-8") is LONG and unwieldy in hallways and doorways.

ronin.45
07-08-2012, 20:00
I don't get the idea behind and AR in 9mm or a SBR in .45, if you are going to have a rifle why not use a rifle round??? I get the fact its more easy to hit your target etc. but why not have the extra punch of a rifle round since you are carrying a rifle?

I vote for the SBR AR for that reason.

You must not have read my post. A pistol caliber carbine has several advantages. It is much cheaper to shoot, has plenty of power with proper ammo, loses nothing ballistically out of a short rifle, suppresses much better, you can shoot it at indoor pistol ranges, etc. All of these may not apply to some, but some apply to all.

WoodenPlank
07-08-2012, 20:03
An SBR for HD? NOT a very smart idea!

One incident and the ATF takes it.....FOREVER!!!!!

Get a 12 gauge Remington 870 and call it a day. If that is confiscated, so what? Buy another!!!

TGG

Yeah, no....

there have been a few HD/SD shootings in my area involving registered NFA items. Not only have I never heard of the ATF taking them, there was even a local case where the ATF came in and raised hell with the local/county LEOs for taking an NFA item from the homeowner without notifying them.

Edit to add: OP, so long as you keep fast on ear pro with your HD weapon, or get a suppressor to go with it, a SBR in a pistol or intermediate rifle caliber can make an EXCELLENT HD weapon. Compact, powerful, and enough reach to handle threats on your property, too. Top it off with plenty of magazine capacity, and you definitely have a potent weapon. My go-to is a 10.5" AR-15 SBR in 5.56.

countrygun
07-08-2012, 20:10
Life was much easier 30 years ago. I a friend asked me a similar question I'd just say "M-1 carbine, expanding ammo" and be done with it:dunno:

faawrenchbndr
07-08-2012, 20:11
So you'd recommend a 20" AR for CQB home defense? The 14.5"+ suppressor (5-8") is LONG and unwieldy in hallways and doorways.

Did ya miss the "less chance of over penetration"?!? :dunno:

Don't ask for my for my opinion, then question it! :wedgie:

WoodenPlank
07-08-2012, 20:14
Did ya miss the "less chance of over penetration"?!? :dunno:

Don't ask for my for my opinion, then question it! :wedgie:

Even if they're the same OAL, the suppressor on the shorter barrel has some major advantages over an unsuppressed, longer barrel.

PettyOfficer
07-08-2012, 20:24
Did ya miss the "less chance of over penetration"?!? :dunno:

Don't ask for my for my opinion, then question it! :wedgie:

In case you didn't read my post: I didn't talk about over penetration, I implied rounds penetrating walls and then exterior walls and then Neighbors walls - like a .308/7.62/300AAC can.

A 9mm or .45 will not penetrate my house, so your incessance on over penetration is moot. :whatareyoutalkingaboutobviouslynotthissubject:

WoodenPlank
07-08-2012, 20:27
In case you didn't read my post: I didn't talk about over penetration, I implied rounds penetrating walls and then exterior walls and then Neighbors walls - like a .308/7.62/300AAC can.

A 9mm or .45 will not penetrate my house, so your incessance on over penetration is moot. :whatareyoutalkingaboutobviouslynotthissubject:

5.56 will go through less interior walls than handgun rounds will, as they tend to tumble and break up rather quickly, whereas handgun projectiles (even JHP) tend to stay in one piece.

Even non-fragmenting rifle loads are still going to tumble on impact with a wall, drastically reducing their range once they hit.

PettyOfficer
07-08-2012, 20:44
Even non-fragmenting rifle loads are still going to tumble on impact with a wall, drastically reducing their range once they hit.
That's helpful info, but I'm worried about my neighbors houses. I have no kids and sleep in the same room with my wife, I'm not worried about interior penetration.

I guess I also don't want full powered rifle rounds for home defense/close quarters, which is why I mentioned the KRISS, it's amazingly nimble and accurate. Those full powered rounds in an SBR would be rather brutal on recoil.

WoodenPlank
07-08-2012, 20:51
That's helpful info, but I'm worried about my neighbors houses. I have no kids and sleep in the same room with my wife, I'm not worried about interior penetration.

I guess I also don't want full powered rifle rounds for home defense/close quarters, which is why I mentioned the KRISS, it's amazingly nimble and accurate. Those full powered rounds in an SBR would be rather brutal on recoil.

Rifle bullets are going to tumble on exterior walls, too, and will have lost a LOT of energy by the time they strike the exterior of a neighbor's house - if they make it even that far. Check out this link (http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/select_556indoor.html) for more detail I'm trying to find photos from some of the backyard style testing people have done with simulated interior walls that were realistically spaced, too. Might post them later.

5.56 ammo in an SBR still has essentially no recoil to worry about. Using the right kind of muzzle device, a suppressor, or ear muffs will all help or practically eliminate muzzle blast issues. Just don't use a side-venting compensator.

Decguns
07-08-2012, 20:56
An M1 Carbine is a great compromise. Very short, very light, and fires a pistol level cartridge. It's got the power of the 357 Mag in a package that can shoot short and long range. I like to keep one around the house stoked with BVAC's rather peppy soft point ammo.

Another option I've also used is the Feather AT-9. A 9MM carbine with removeable stock which can also use AR stocks, widgets and tacticrap. It's cheap to shoot. You can fire it at any range. Loaded with +P+ ammo, it's on par with the 357 Mag. Of course, a 9MM AR would also suffice.

PettyOfficer
07-08-2012, 21:41
5.56 ammo in an SBR still has essentially no recoil to worry about. Using the right kind of muzzle device, a suppressor, or ear muffs will all help or practically eliminate muzzle blast issues. Just don't use a side-venting compensator.

Good info. I'm a huge fan of the KRISS (as you can probably tell), but a 5.56 SBR has longer range capabilities over the huge .45, and my G30 meets my .45 needs.

Still, hard to break myself away from its technological genius.

WoodenPlank
07-08-2012, 21:50
Good info. I'm a huge fan of the KRISS (as you can probably tell), but a 5.56 SBR has longer range capabilities over the huge .45, and my G30 meets my .45 needs.

Still, hard to break myself away from its technological genius.

Can't remember if I said this in the thread already, but my go-to weapon is a 10.5" AR-15 SBR in 5.56. It's an amazing balance of firepower, accuracy, capacity, and size. The only drawback is the muzzle report/blast, but that's pretty well mitigated by the electronic ear-pro that hang off the front of the rail and muzzle when it's doing "bump-in-the-night" duties. It also makes one heck of a car/trunk gun.

CJStudent
07-08-2012, 22:08
So you'd recommend a 20" AR for CQB home defense? The 14.5"+ suppressor (5-8") is LONG and unwieldy in hallways and doorways.

How about a 10" suppressed AR, then? I honestly prefer an AR in 5.56 to a pistol caliber anything for use indoors, as, with quality ammo (TAP, Gold Dot, etc) it will actually penetrate walls less, yet still have some pretty nasty results in flesh.

PettyOfficer
07-08-2012, 22:37
Yeah, suppressors get pricey but if I can get a good SBR upper for a good price it might be something I can save up for... I'm basically at $40 in my budget, it's gonna take some time to put together the 1300-1700 for the rifle, then more for case, spare mags, red dot, BUIS, vfg, sling, taxes, etc.

On top of those basics, I also want a high lumen (150+) light for night blinding a BG, and a camera too, for the after action report/legal defense. I like what ive read about the Contour GPS or ROAM models... About the same size as a light and has smart phone viewing/controls so I can verify its aimpoint and make corrections easily during setup.

I've read the Replay XD has better video quality and material, but it's not waterproof and doesn't have smart phone controls.

The cameras are around 300 and light will be 150-300, plus the mounting accessories. Doesn't leave much for suppressor... Maybe a Xmas gift in '14.

CJStudent
07-08-2012, 22:49
Yeah, suppressors get pricey but if I can get a good SBR upper for a good price it might be something I can save up for... I'm basically at $40 in my budget, it's gonna take some time to put together the 1300-1700 for the rifle, then more for case, spare mags, red dot, BUIS, vfg, sling, taxes, etc.

On top of those basics, I also want a high lumen (150+) light for night blinding a BG, and a camera too, for the after action report/legal defense. I like what ive read about the Contour GPS or ROAM models... About the same size as a light and has smart phone viewing/controls so I can verify its aimpoint and make corrections easily during setup.

I've read the Replay XD has better video quality and material, but it's not waterproof and doesn't have smart phone controls.

The cameras are around 300 and light will be 150-300, plus the mounting accessories. Doesn't leave much for suppressor... Maybe a Xmas gift in '14.

One thing, from personal experience: A high-lumen light is wonderful when outdoors, but the splashback indoors will blind you. A more moderate-lumen model, between 60-90 lumens, will be more than enough inside and for most outdoor scenarios, as well.

12131
07-08-2012, 23:13
I would go with a 10.5 inch 5.56 AR.
I understand that the KRISS is a techno achievement, but from a handling perspective (never shot it), I did not like it at all. Don't forget how easy it would be to find spare parts, compared to the AR.

faawrenchbndr
07-09-2012, 08:05
In case you didn't read my post: I didn't talk about over penetration, I implied rounds penetrating walls and then exterior walls and then Neighbors walls - like a .308/7.62/300AAC can.

A 9mm or .45 will not penetrate my house, so your incessance on over penetration is moot. :whatareyoutalkingaboutobviouslynotthissubject:


You need to do some research Slick,..........clearly you have no clue
about over penetration with 9mm & 45 when it comes to walls!

Learn something,.......then come back & admit your fail! :wavey:

Andrewsky
07-09-2012, 08:13
You need to do some research Slick,..........clearly you have no clue
about over penetration with 9mm & 45 when it comes to walls!

Learn something,.......then come back & admit your fail! :wavey:

It really depends on what you mean by "wall."

I can push through drywall with a scratch awl.

Wood, or aluminum/wood siding I need an electric drill.

For brick I need a hammer drill.

Travclem
07-09-2012, 11:37
10.5" SBR
Suppressor
MK262 ammunition
Done

Travclem
07-09-2012, 11:39
An SBR for HD? NOT a very smart idea!

One incident and the ATF takes it.....FOREVER!!!!!



TGG
Where do you get your "guru" info from? This is not a true statement.

PettyOfficer
07-09-2012, 15:05
You need to do some research Slick,..........clearly you have no clue
about over penetration with 9mm & 45 when it comes to walls!

Learn something,.......then come back & admit your fail! :wavey:

Get lost you troll.

My house is brick, .45 will not go through brick.

You're still not paying attention. Allow me to repeat myself:

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PENETRATION INSIDE OF MY HOUSE.

Any caliber will travel window to window, next door or across the street, so that's unavoidable.

You're stuck on trying to always be right, go away or I'll report you as a troll.

Bruce M
07-09-2012, 17:06
I would guess that depending on the jurisdiction if someone ends up dead a firearm used in that incident may stay in evidence for a very long time regardless of the type of gun.

PettyOfficer
07-09-2012, 18:53
I would guess that depending on the jurisdiction if someone ends up dead a firearm used in that incident may stay in evidence for a very long time regardless of the type of gun.

Yeah, I've read articles of folks trying to get their firearms out of evidence when their cases were thrown out or found innocent... But that's an individual jurisdiction issue.

CJStudent
07-09-2012, 19:41
Get lost you troll.

My house is brick, .45 will not go through brick.

You're still not paying attention. Allow me to repeat myself:

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PENETRATION INSIDE OF MY HOUSE.

Any caliber will travel window to window, next door or across the street, so that's unavoidable.

You're stuck on trying to always be right, go away or I'll report you as a troll.

I understand you looking at pistol calibers; we use Colt 9mm SMGs at work, so I'm familiar with them. With modern defensive ammo, though, I'd still strongly recommend an SBR chambered in 5.56mm. With the slightly reduced velocity of the shorter barrel, it's effective range is reduced, but the round still doesn't penetrate nearly as much as a pistol round through barriers unless using a bonded round. Plus, it's more effective when actually striking a person, as it tends to fragment and dump all the energy in its target.

WoodenPlank
07-09-2012, 19:52
Get lost you troll.

My house is brick, .45 will not go through brick.

You're still not paying attention. Allow me to repeat myself:

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PENETRATION INSIDE OF MY HOUSE.

Any caliber will travel window to window, next door or across the street, so that's unavoidable.

You're stuck on trying to always be right, go away or I'll report you as a troll.

5.56 won't penetrate brick walls, either.

FAA is spot on, yet you keep calling him a troll.

PettyOfficer
07-09-2012, 20:02
5.56 won't penetrate brick walls, either.

FAA is spot on, yet you keep calling him a troll.

Damn, I took a few months off of this forum because of trolls were p'ing me off... Read the first post and understand exactly what I said. I never argued against 5.56!

I never said 5.56 would penetrate a brick wall, yet he keeps insulting me saying I need to learn and admit failure?!

As a matter of fact, I mentioned 5.56 as my other choice next to the .45.

My post said I wasn't interested in .308, 7.62 or 300AAC because I dont want to put holes in other peoples houses.

PettyOfficer
07-09-2012, 20:04
Perhaps you two misunderstood the term "full powered rifle" calibers... 5.56 has an effective range of 500yards at most. It's like a .22LR on steroids next to a .308.

Travclem
07-09-2012, 20:54
No, 5.56 is considerably more than a .22lr on steroids. The bullet diameter is the same and that's where the similarities end. I think you should do a little more research.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

PettyOfficer
07-09-2012, 21:10
No, 5.56 is considerably more than a .22lr on steroids. The bullet diameter is the same and that's where the similarities end. I think you should do a little more research.

Wow, the inability to see "compared to a .308" confounds me. The 5.56 is one of the two chosen calibers I originally noted.
:sigh:

bac1023
07-09-2012, 21:23
Damn, I took a few months off of this forum because of trolls were p'ing me off...


Maybe you should take a few more months off :whistling:

WoodenPlank
07-09-2012, 21:33
No, 5.56 is considerably more than a .22lr on steroids. The bullet diameter is the same and that's where the similarities end. I think you should do a little more research.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

.222 vs .224 on bullet diameter. Close enough, I guess.

jp3975
07-09-2012, 22:20
If I wanted an SBR in .223, Id get a bullpup like the MSAR or FN F2000. You wouldnt lose any velocity and it wouldnt be as loud as an sbr AR. Standard length barrel in the same size as a 10" barrel AR.

If you want to wait a bit...Tavor, currently what the Israeli's use, is supposed to come here this year. Its probably the best .223 bullpup out there.

You could also sbr an AK in 5.45x39mm[or 223 if you'd prefer]. Similar round to .223 but you can get over 1,000 for only $140. Cheap rifle, cheap ammo. Hard to beat for the price. Saiga are new ones made in Russia...top notch and go for $500 or so.

Huntertown arms also makes a great suppressor for it for only $499. You should consider them for a suppressor in any case as they make .223
http://www.huntertownarms.com/k556.php

Id also consider sbring an FN P90. Those are the most ergonomic things ever and have 0 recoil...even in full-auto. It also holds 50 rounds. That would be my top pic and Id probably own one if ammo costs werent a concern...though you're considering 45acp so it must not be an issue.

UZI is also worth consideration. Cheaper than KRISS and you'll be able to shoot the 9mm a LOT more than the 45.

jp3975
07-09-2012, 22:54
Yeah, I've read articles of folks trying to get their firearms out of evidence when their cases were thrown out or found innocent... But that's an individual jurisdiction issue.

I know a few people that have killed home intruders and one robbery at a friend's business. Guns where returned pretty quickly.

jp3975
07-09-2012, 23:00
Im going to side with Petty Officer on the troll stuff.

The guy called him slick and talked down to him...saying to come back after he's done research and admit his fail. That's asinine.

This was also an accurate statement...He said compared to .308 its like a .22 on steroids.

He didnt mean it was actually like a high power .22

Wow, the inability to see "compared to a .308" confounds me. The 5.56 is one of the two chosen calibers I originally noted.

Travclem
07-10-2012, 00:26
Maybe you should take a few more months off :whistling:
I concur... and maybe a script for some Xanax.:wavey:

Travclem
07-10-2012, 00:29
Im going to side with Petty Officer on the troll stuff.

The guy called him slick and talked down to him...saying to come back after he's done research and admit his fail. That's asinine.

This was also an accurate statement...He said compared to .308 its like a .22 on steroids.

He didnt mean it was actually like a high power .22
Faawrnchbndr is far from a troll. He's been here a long time and contributed more to the forum than most.

And no, compared to the .308, a 5.56x45 is like a 5.56x45.

jp3975
07-10-2012, 00:42
Faawrnchbndr is far from a troll. He's been here a long time and contributed more to the forum than most.

And no, compared to the .308, a 5.56x45 is like a 5.56x45.

Troll is a strong word, but point is, what he said wasnt called for.

Also, the op wasnt seriously comparing 223 to 22. He used an expression.

AK_Stick
07-10-2012, 00:42
Im going to side with Petty Officer on the troll stuff.

The guy called him slick and talked down to him...saying to come back after he's done research and admit his fail. That's asinine.

This was also an accurate statement...He said compared to .308 its like a .22 on steroids.

He didnt mean it was actually like a high power .22


Its actually a pretty astute statement.


In any manner of speaking, a 5.56, SBR, is superior to a KRISS, in any caliber you can find.

The OP, who, is about the closest to "troll" as you will find in this thread, asked about a caliber, and then, against common sense, and fact, attempts to argue about over penetration, against a neighboring structure, with FAA, who was clearly advising common sense, and factual information in his post.


No matter how you cut it, FAA was right. And "troll" he is not.

Travclem
07-10-2012, 00:45
Troll is a strong word, but point is, what he said wasnt called for.

Also, the op wasnt seriously comparing 223 to 22. He used an expression.

That's like saying "compared to a Ferrari, a Hayabusa is pretty much a bicycle."