How important is short trigger reset on a defensive pistol? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Lior
07-09-2012, 06:39
Good morning GTers. If you are reading this, I like you.

Like many people here, I have been seeking the holy grail in carry guns for a long time. As we don't trust pistols for one shot stops, we try to equip and train ourselves to put to practice the adage "If it is worth shooting once, it is worth shooting again" - and "take our time quickly" while doing it.

Besides reliability and likelihood of carry when needed, important things to consider for a defensive pistol include trigger and grip morphology that contribute to decent practical accuracy, and part of this IMO is the ability to reset the trigger quickly. Here lies the issue.

When I carried Glocks I enjoyed the trigger reset and found it short and comfortable. Other manufacturers fare well to varying degrees with regard to trigger reset. Most SA 1911s do well in this respect, as do the H&K P7M13 and the CZ75 Shadow.

One needs to be comfortable when the trigger breaks, but having a long reset means manipulating the trigger at different speeds for different stages of the shot cycle, even at high speed. On my CZ Phantom, I found myself slapping the trigger instead of slowly releasing till reset before squeezing again to shoot quickly. Its reset is longer than a Glock's but shorter than for CZ's Omega trigger (e.g. P07 Duty), and is fine for a carry gun.

My ideal carry gun would be a lightweight double stack 1911 with a rail for lasers and stuff and a trigger as described above, but I have yet to find one that is available, so I soldier on with the Phantom while I compete with the awesome Shadow. I might adopt trigger slapping a bit more when shooting combat pistols as opposed to raceguns, to get some more speed out of them.

How important is short trigger reset for you folks, and what guns do you recommend with short trigger resets?

Boats
07-09-2012, 06:52
I own and shoot 1911s, which have trigger reset qualities that make the Glock reset feel like garbage, and DA/SA pistols which don't have anything like a short and crisp reset. I also shoot DA revolvers which have to be fully stroked and reset to operate properly.

I guess my conclusion over the years is this: "Fast trigger reset" is more important to paper punchers and competition rigs than it is in reality. I think it's totally overrated.

It's one thing to feel for the reset click when there is no real, or only a game induced adrenaline dump, and quite another if the target is shooting back.

M2 Carbine
07-09-2012, 07:22
Been shooting since the late 1950's and never was concerned about "trigger reset". Still ain't concerned.
I'm not sure I even heard of it until I started hanging out at Glock Talk.

Also never heard of "limp wisting" until the Glocks came along.


So personally, trigger reset isn't important to me.

TheJ
07-09-2012, 07:22
Whether that is in a defensive situation or competition, a short trigger reset is helpful for accurately placing successive rounds on target quickly..

Try a Walther PPQ. It's like the marriage of a Glock 19 an H&K P30. Striker fired, superb ergos and super short trigger reset.

ronin.45
07-09-2012, 10:19
I think a good trigger is much more important than a short reset. Different types of triggers have vastly different reset properties, but all can be effectively used for SD/HD. My S&W revolvers have a very long reset, but are buttery smooth. They would be just fine in a defense situation.

4Rules
07-09-2012, 11:16
...My ideal carry gun would be a lightweight double stack 1911 with a rail for lasers and stuff and a (short reset) trigger...

http://photosbydon.smugmug.com/Other/SHOT-Show-2012-Day-1/i-WGMSpB3/0/L/DSC6356-L.jpg

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3643609 (http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3643609)

CBennett
07-09-2012, 11:17
None to me because ive never shot from "reset" cant get myself to do it tried drilling for it but I just shoot well not from reset and im fine with that..so to me I dont care where it is or even if it has a noticeable or any reset point. non factor for me.

CBennett
07-09-2012, 11:21
Been shooting since the late 1950's and never was concerned about "trigger reset". Still ain't concerned.
I'm not sure I even heard of it until I started hanging out at Glock Talk.

Also never heard of "limp wisting" until the Glocks came along.


So personally, trigger reset isn't important to me.

^^^ also a good post lol...been in military and LE since the mid-late 80's and never heard anything about "limp wristing" till I came here and saw it mentioned about Glocks, none of the people who taught at and of the SRT schools,military schools,SWAT team schools,LE academies ever taught anything about trigger reset it was never even mentioned. First I heard that was in online forums so i figured id try to pay attention and learn something new..once I tried shooting from it and failed to find it any better(or worse) than what i was doing before I just forgot about it not worth the time...maybe in competition not in a RL situation when all that crap goes out the window anyways..

countrygun
07-09-2012, 12:20
I never heard the phrase until PACT timers showed up and competitors started worrying about "split times" and such.

BTW if reset on an SA/DA is important, take a try on a S&W "39" series. We had it great way back and didn't even know it.

checkyoursix
07-09-2012, 12:22
...

I guess my conclusion over the years is this: "Fast trigger reset" is more important to paper punchers and competition rigs than it is in reality. I think it's totally overrated.

....


In a nutshell, that.

I think that if you keep your focus on the front sights you are going to be just fine regardless of the reset. If you don't, you will be missing faster, maybe.

Nakanokalronin
07-09-2012, 13:13
I like shorter resets on semi-autos due to faster follow-up shots. Adrenaline dumps are all fine and dandy, but we're not having them every time we practice and train, or at all.

When in a stress filled situation, you want those follow-up shots done quickly and accurately and if you have a long reset, you may or may not let the trigger out far enough for a second shot. Now the reset dosn't have to be super short, just enough will do.

I like my Beretta 92s and other DA/SA - DAO guns, but I can get quicker more accurate follow-up shots with my 1911s and recently bought Shield/M&P with an Apex sear and polished/rounded striker block.

The main thing that I see being important is having a positive reset. One that can at least be felt, if not also heard. It's feedback for the user and is more important on longer resetting triggers because of that adrenaline dump being mentioned. It's also about practice as well, but if you talk about it not mattering in a high stress situation, then you better train in a high stress situation or you might be slapping that trigger all over as well as the front sight when your faced with a real adrenaline dump.

DEADEYEGUY
07-09-2012, 13:40
I don't think in a real defensive situation as long as your used to the trigger it will make a bit of difference. Started off many years ago on DAO revolvers. Believe me you can shoot them very fast if you need to.
The only problem I've seen people run into is when the switch from a short trigger rest system to a long one. Until they are used to the longer resetand trigger pull they will sometimes short stroke the trigger. Again it goes away as they become used to the new trigger.

gwalchmai
07-09-2012, 13:42
How fast are you guys' followup shots? How fast do you think they'd be if someone's shooting back? Just curious.

ChicagoZman
07-09-2012, 14:02
Because I shoot my guns much more frequently for practice, training and matches than I do defending myself, it is important to me. If the time ever comes when I must use my gun to defend myself or my loved ones, I doubt it will matter much.

Berto
07-09-2012, 15:10
I've watched gunfight videos where 3rd gen S&W autos sounded like FA.
I'd imagine it's the case with almost any gun you shoot often enough.
Even Hinkley was flyin' with that RG .22 revolver in the Reagan attempt.

Comedian
07-09-2012, 15:31
I don't know if a short reset would be an advantage in a gun fight, but i do practice shooting to reset. So maybe since i practice that way, it might increase the chance that it would help in a deadly force situation. It does help me to shoot faster. Just as a low bore axis allows me to shoot faster.

Brucev
07-09-2012, 15:53
Re: OP. If your playing games, then obviously faster is better. Otherwise, it is irrelevant. Any common SD/HD pistol of current modern design will be more than adequate. The Glock is outstanding as is a good quality 1911. The same is true of the Sigs, etc. The cognizant will of course opine differently. They always do. That's nothing new. Regardless it changes nothing.

Bruce M
07-09-2012, 16:42
My guess is that I would not notice it in an actual situation.

PlasticGuy
07-09-2012, 16:54
I think a good quality reset (smooth and consistent) is much more important than having a short reset. A DA revolver with tuned trigger can be plenty fast. Ask Jerry M.

deputy tom
07-09-2012, 17:38
I'm used to a DA S&W revolver so any reset is fine with me. YMMV.tom.:cool:

NEOH212
07-09-2012, 17:44
I own and shoot 1911s, which have trigger reset qualities that make the Glock reset feel like garbage, and DA/SA pistols which don't have anything like a short and crisp reset. I also shoot DA revolvers which have to be fully stroked and reset to operate properly.

I guess my conclusion over the years is this: "Fast trigger reset" is more important to paper punchers and competition rigs than it is in reality. I think it's totally overrated.

It's one thing to feel for the reset click when there is no real, or only a game induced adrenaline dump, and quite another if the target is shooting back.

Short reset triggers are nice but not absolutely necessary for a defensive pistol.

Simply put, I agree totally with your post.

Well put.

:wavey:

NEOH212
07-09-2012, 17:45
A DA revolver with tuned trigger can be plenty fast. Ask Jerry M.

Anyone that would say otherwise apparently never shot a revolver with a good trigger.

:agree:

cowboy1964
07-09-2012, 18:14
I see no practical reason for a short reset in a defensive handgun. I can shoot my P30 LEM as fast as I would ever need to and I never short shift the reset on it or anything else.

But, if you really want one, the Sig SRT is ridiculously short and light.

Nakanokalronin
07-09-2012, 19:02
Less trigger travel is also about accuracy, not just speed. It's like those videos we've all seen of a cop dumping an entire 15rd mag at someone while aiming down the sights and missing with almost every round. This is why I talk about a long reset/pull and slapping the trigger around during a high stress situation. I can shoot my snub nose revolvers very quickly but it dosn't mean I'm getting the same size groups when I'm shooting one of my semi-autos at the same speed with a short pull/reset.

Again, it's practice but there's a reason why many are surprised how accurately they can shoot a 1911 the very first time.

mr.scott
07-09-2012, 20:40
I own and shoot 1911s, which have trigger reset qualities that make the Glock reset feel like garbage, and DA/SA pistols which don't have anything like a short and crisp reset. I also shoot DA revolvers which have to be fully stroked and reset to operate properly.

I guess my conclusion over the years is this: "Fast trigger reset" is more important to paper punchers and competition rigs than it is in reality. I think it's totally overrated.

It's one thing to feel for the reset click when there is no real, or only a game induced adrenaline dump, and quite another if the target is shooting back.
This is what I think. If you are in a situation where you are shooting a BG, you could have a 15lb double action only gun with a 5 inch trigger reset and you'll never notice it when shooting.

Lior
07-10-2012, 02:56
Thanks for the inputs thus far, folks. Much appreciated. Indeed my focus in recent years has been competition more than combat.

12131
07-10-2012, 03:03
I guess my conclusion over the years is this: "Fast trigger reset" is more important to paper punchers and competition rigs than it is in reality. I think it's totally overrated.

It's one thing to feel for the reset click when there is no real, or only a game induced adrenaline dump, and quite another if the target is shooting back.
nuf said!:cool:

Arc Angel
07-10-2012, 04:42
....... How important is short trigger reset for you folks, and what guns do you recommend with short trigger resets?

Hi, Lior!

For me it's very important as is the use of muzzle ports. I never fire a combat pistol just once. Doubles and triples are more like it. Unless you're real close, slapping the trigger is not a good thing to do. I don't completely, 'nest' the front sight between shots, either. I take a low hold on COM and fire when the front sight is, about, half way down. I've found that if you're really watching that front sight the way you should you won't tend to fire too quickly; AND the accuracy will be there.

Mountain10mm
07-10-2012, 09:40
I've got to chime in on this one. As a shooter who spends all of his time shooting paper (I have yet to shoot a bad guy), I think how a gun functions against paper is a relevant argument. I don't understand the points of view that say, "until Glocks I never heard of ..." or "during my military or police training" this was never discussed. Back in the early 80's how many people heard of the 40S&W? How many people shoot that round now? Before that, who heard of the “Weaver stance”? Smokeless powder – what’s that? Learning and technology is a good thing. Nothing against military and police handgun instructors, but generally (I know there are some exceptional ones) they are not great shots, and their objective is not to create the best pistol shooters in the world, merely, to get all the cadets/recruits up to a minimum standard. That means some of the finer points of pistol craft may not be addressed.

Arguing that competitive shooting doesn't have valid points in life and death shooting situation, or saying you'll never notice a heavy trigger pull while being shot it, is like saying an Indy car driver’s learned skills and the race car’s technology are useless on the road. I concur, group sizes are not measured in shots placed in a bad guy, but if the group size is too big, that means misses, stray bullets, and more time for the bad guy to unload on the good guy. If I were to be in a real life shooting situation, I want every 0.01 second I can get whether it be drawing out of holster, time for first shot, or time between shots. (Shot timers help me practice this.) I also want every shot to hit where I want it to go. If that's between the eyes or center of mass, it doesn't matter, but I want my shots to go where I aim. (Competitions and paper targets help me practice this.) Quality triggers, lighter trigger pulls, short resets, no overtravel, great sights, accurate ammunition, reliability, and practice, all matter. Obviously there is a cost/benefit tradeoff for all of these criteria and every shooter needs to balance that best for him/her, but in a truly philosophical (or money isn't an issue) argument, why wouldn't you utilize every bit of technology and training you could to make you a better shot? I’d place my money on Rob Leatham and one of his pistols in a police-style shooting challenge any day. Why? Hmmm, lots of practice, gun purposely built to be fast and accurate, and 1000’s of hours of shooting under stress.

unit1069
07-10-2012, 10:36
How important a short recess trigger or any trigger for that matter is up to the individual.

I have two striker-fired DAO pistols and one DAO/hammer-fired design that all get carried at various times. I much prefer the short-reset striker-fired triggers and intend to trade the other pistol for a small short reset striker-fired one to maintain consistency.

I just don't like the long DAO pull of the hammer-fired system and at times when I've rapid fired a string of rounds I have neglected to let the trigger return all the way back. I certainly don't need that if I ever encounter a dire emergency.

The longer I own firearms the less I shoot, and I only own handguns for self-defense so for me standardization is important.

Haldor
07-10-2012, 19:42
I shot an interesting course of fire at last year's Fun and Gun (annual fund raiser for the local CCW rights org). The idea at one of the stations was to put lead on target while moving and at varying distances.

One of the sequences was to stand within bad breath range of the target, do a close retention draw (keeping the gun low and just in front of the holster) and double tap.

Another sequence was to walk towards the target, draw and empty the mag while backing up. The shots on this drill were very fast (about 2-3 seconds total).

I never even noticed the reset on my G26 during any of these drills. I don't know if that is because the G26 has a nice short reset or if I was simply doing a full trigger stroke on each shot. Probably both.

Fallout
07-10-2012, 22:05
I guess I have had the luck of good instructors. When I went through my tac school back in 2005 the first thing our instructor did was run us through drills to learn how to use the trigger reset on the glocks. We did quite a few shooting and moving drills and accuracy increased dramatically. Fast forward a couple of years different instructor and it was an LE oriented combat handgun class. To qualify we had to draw from a holster at the five seven and ten yard line and put 2 shots center mass in less than 2 seconds. The guys who didn't use the reset had trouble making the time. Also learned to use the guns recoil get on a second target quicker. On a reactive encounter any sort of muscle memory you learn that gives you an edge is never a bad thing.