How do you explain the problem of pain? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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teumessian_fox
07-10-2012, 19:25
I saw a vid of children butchered by rival african tribes. One child was fleeing with her foot flopping on a broken bone.

In a book called "Have Atheists Proved There Is No God", the author discusses the problem of pain and the existence of God.

In light of innocents suffering, how would you explain this paradox? Free will? The fall of man?

And please, no 7th Day cultists respond. Your desire is not to illuminate, but to dominate. Thanx.

Japle
07-10-2012, 20:33
The best book I've found on this subject is "God's Problem" by Bart Ehrman. It's an excellent in-depth study of the subject.

Bottom line: A personal god who actually cares about humans couldn't possible allow the suffering of innocents.

ricka10
07-10-2012, 21:14
They are only practicing survival of the fittest. Pure Darwinism. Whats the problem?

teumessian_fox
07-10-2012, 21:31
Whats the problem?


Seriously? The problem of suffering reconciled with a Benevolent God?

It's a theological paradox that has been debated among ivory tower theologians for hundreds of years.

It's not a question that can be answered. I'm interested in GTrs perspectives.

thanx

Snapper2
07-10-2012, 21:35
I saw a vid of children butchered by rival african tribes. One child was fleeing with her foot flopping on a broken bone.

In a book called "Have Atheists Proved There Is No God", the author discusses the problem of pain and the existence of God.

In light of innocents suffering, how would you explain this paradox? Free will? The fall of man?.
So is the book trying to prove there is no God based on pain? Is He is to blame for one man murdering another because He created them but would not stop it. Huh?Isnt it easier for someone that knows what they are talking about to take for what it is. We murder each other. And we dont believe in God or if we do,we hold our beliefs above the rights of those who dont believe as we do. We did it.

MrRandyRhoads
07-10-2012, 21:39
As far as I know, the purpose of pain is to tell your brain "Hey, something isn't right here."

One could venture a guess and say that since pain signals your body to address the issue or possibly die (if circumstances allowed for that possibility, of course) then you could argue that pain is in fact beneficial to the survival of man.

Snapper2
07-10-2012, 21:42
Bottom line: A personal god who actually cares about humans couldn't possible allow the suffering of innocents.
Says who? Is that how you feel? It would only make sense if you didn't believe in a resurrection. If you don't then I see what you mean.

Japle
07-10-2012, 21:51
Posted by Snapper2:
Is that how you feel? It would only make sense if you didn't believe in a resurrection. If you don't then I see what you mean.
Of course I don’t believe in a resurrection. Not that my beliefs have any relevance to the existence of a god.

Can you explain how belief in a resurrection matters to an infant who’s suffering from a fatal infection? Keep in mind that the infant isn’t old enough to have any concept of religion.

Snapper2
07-10-2012, 22:08
Can you explain how belief in a resurrection matters to an infant who’s suffering from a fatal infection? Keep in mind that the infant isn’t old enough to have any concept of religion.
First of all, religion is nothing but our attempt to find favor in a God we believe. The resurrection in Christ would have to do with the infant's Creator's love. Not what the infant deserved or didnt deserve.

Arc Angel
07-10-2012, 22:28
I saw a vid of children butchered by rival african tribes. One child was fleeing with her foot flopping on a broken bone.

In a book called "Have Atheists Proved There Is No God", the author discusses the problem of pain and the existence of God. In light of innocents suffering, how would you explain this paradox? Free will? The fall of man?

And please, no 7th Day cultists respond. Your desire is not to illuminate, but to dominate. Thanx.

:upeyes: You guys never quit! In fact, I'd say it's people like you who seek to dominate just as much, or even more so, than others whom you like to accuse of doing the same thing. Why don't you, just once, attempt to step over your own hardhearted bias, and try looking at people and events in a more scripturally enlightened way:

Each and everyone of us is dogged by his own haunting and subjective karma. Do you understand what, 'personal karma' means? (If you don't then try reading the Book of Job. These points are argued there; and, guess what? That God in whom you are so disbelieving is justified on the very points which you are now, supposedly, considering!)

As for your remark about, 'innocents'? Are you kidding! If Sacred Scripture teaches us anything it is that NONE OF US are innocent - None of us! (So, we're back to, 'karma' again.) Does the existence of pain, or its reality, bother you? Well, surprise! We're NOT here for the party. Keep on reading downward. You might achieve greater insight into the dilemma you're trying to fathom.

(I daresay that if you had previously read - and pondered - the Book of Job and, in particular, all of Chapter 3, as well as Chapter 5, verses 17-19 then you would have already answered your own question. That you have not already done this tells me a great deal about you.) ;)

Syclone538
07-10-2012, 22:53
...
And we dont believe in God or if we do,we hold our beliefs above the rights of those who dont believe as we do. We did it.

Can you give some examples of atheists doing this?

Snapper2
07-10-2012, 23:09
Can you give some examples of atheists doing this?
Don't really care to.I'll just judge myself. My statement was that we are all capable of murder given the right circumstances whether we are religious or not. It's OUR(mankind) fault.

G26S239
07-11-2012, 03:35
It's not a question that can be answered. I'm interested in GTrs perspectives.

thanx
Way to get a discussion going the direction you want it to. :thumbsup: :rofl: 7th day cultists stay off the grass. Do you have difficulty defending your position when 7th day cultists show up?


And please, no 7th Day cultists respond. Your desire is not to illuminate, but to dominate. Thanx.

Brasso
07-11-2012, 08:31
Way to get a discussion going the direction you want it to. 7th day cultists stay off the grass. Do you have difficulty defending your position when 7th day cultists show up?

It's a lot harder to argue with someone when they don't contradict themselves.

Cavalry Doc
07-11-2012, 11:04
I saw a vid of children butchered by rival african tribes. One child was fleeing with her foot flopping on a broken bone.

In a book called "Have Atheists Proved There Is No God", the author discusses the problem of pain and the existence of God.

In light of innocents suffering, how would you explain this paradox? Free will? The fall of man?

And please, no 7th Day cultists respond. Your desire is not to illuminate, but to dominate. Thanx.


I don't know what you can learn about whether or not there is a god by watching the cruel things people do, but I have learned a lot about humans watching the things they will do to each other. Which is a pretty good reason to carry a gun.

Animal Mother
07-11-2012, 16:05
As for your remark about, 'innocents'? Are you kidding! If Sacred Scripture teaches us anything it is that NONE OF US are innocent - None of us! (So, we're back to, 'karma' again.) Does the existence of pain, or its reality, bother you? Well, surprise! We're NOT here for the party. Keep on reading downward. You might achieve greater insight into the dilemma you're trying to fathom. How are children or infants not innocent? Doesn't the Bible itself say that one isn't responsible until they're able to understand the need for accountability?
(I daresay that if you had previously read - and pondered - the Book of Job and, in particular, all of Chapter 3, as well as Chapter 5, verses 17-19 then you would have already answered your own question. That you have not already done this tells me a great deal about you.) ;)How does God jerking Job around prove anything?

High-Gear
07-11-2012, 18:58
:

As for your remark about, 'innocents'? Are you kidding! If Sacred Scripture teaches us anything it is that NONE OF US are innocent - None of us! ;)

Right, apparently we are all born trash and are worthless until we accept your god.


Welcome To This World - YouTube

Gunhaver
07-11-2012, 20:22
Evolution explains pain. Nature doesn't care about suffering because it evolved around a system of life consuming life. Getting eaten is painful so you'll be motivated to avoid it and survive long enough to reproduce. Surviving long enough to reproduce is such an obvious agenda in nature that we see animals die soon after they complete that mission. Male mantises are eaten during mating. That's how important they are after completing their function and the nutrients in their bodies is better spent on the next generation than any more life for them. Many spiders are consumed by their young as soon as they hatch because the female's purpose is complete. Just about any animal in nature including humans will die to protect their offspring because that is so ingrained in us by the fact that it's been so rough out there for so long that any species that didn't have the natural tendency to behave that way didn't survive for long.

Nature doesn't care about pain anymore than it cares about the horror of children feeding off their parents. That's a human response. We don't like those things so we label them as bad and make up stories of why things are that way rather than accept that that's how life works and be thankful that we were lucky enough to be born as humans so we could avoid a lot of that ugliness.

Guss
07-11-2012, 21:07
The message of the Book of Job is that humans are not even worthy to ask why. Just suck it up.

Guss
07-11-2012, 21:10
The best book I've found on this subject is "God's Problem" by Bart Ehrman. It's an excellent in-depth study of the subject.

Bottom line: A personal god who actually cares about humans couldn't possible allow the suffering of innocents.

That was a good book. Dr. Ehrman was once a minister and the issue of suffering was the final straw that turned him to agnosticism.

Tilley
07-11-2012, 22:42
Right, apparently we are all born trash and are worthless until we accept your god.Christ died for the sins of all men.


Folks, if you REALLY think we evolved from muck, then you are wasting your time here.

Syclone538
07-11-2012, 23:17
Christ died for the sins of all men.


Folks, if you REALLY think we evolved from muck, then you are wasting your time here.

That depends on what you consider a waste of time. I guess the biggest reason I read and post here is to figure out how people can believe mythologies as truths, and why my brain works so fundamentally different then most people.

NMG26
07-12-2012, 04:15
If Sacred Scripture teaches us anything it is that NONE OF US are innocent - None of us! (So, we're back to, 'karma' again.) ;)

Here is a good reason to question Sacred Scripture, or your understanding if it.

I would dare say that the whoever wrote the Scriptures you are referring to, was not trying to say that children are not innocent. If whoever wrote the Scriptures is saying that children are not innocent, then it is fair to say the the writer is wrong on that point at least. Are you not allowed to think because of your understanding of the Book?

Arc Angel
07-12-2012, 08:50
:shocked: Wow! It looks like the R.I.F., 'Peanut Gallery' has really gotten itself all hyped up over this one. Well, first children, He's not only, 'my God'; whether you like it, or not, He's your God, too. A principal difference between us is that I accept the God Who defines Himself in the Judeo-Christian Bible as THE One True God; and you do not.

I, almost, don’t know where to begin? The accepted course would be for me to ignore all of you; but, if I do that then someone else who might be thinking of becoming like you might, because of my silence, stumble and fall in with your own low spiritual ilk. So, for the moment, I’m going to overlook not, ‘suffering fools’ or, ‘casting pearls before swine’ and address a few of your comments.

(Comments for which each of you is absolutely, positively going to stand and answer for in the coming Judgment. I really have to wonder: How is it that so many of you fail to perceive that life is NOT some sort of a silly game? Life is NOT a temperamental hodgepodge of: brazen, godless, and self-indulgent thoughts and behaviors - All without any enduring consequence.)

Do you not know that the very hairs of your head are numbered; AND, likewise, so are your sins? None of you, I am certain, would dare to jump into the bear cage at the Bronx Zoo; but, with reckless incredible stupidity, you fly in The Face Of God and insult His Good And Holy Name. The fearless behavior of many of you astonishes me! Personally, I’d rather go to the gallows, or to a headsman’s axe before I would utter any of the insults and blasphemies you, so freely, rail against God. Make no mistake! In the foreseeable future humanity is in for some really tough times. Christians and Jews like me ARE going to be on the losing side FOR AWHILE; but, then, everything’s going to change; and that God Whom you have insulted is going to come forward and prevail. Don’t any of you reprobates realize that you’re going to, ‘go down in flames’?

Let me tell you what a really clever man would do here: Not knowing, for certain, what he’s talking about a really clever man would, REMAIN SILENT rather than: rant, rave, and insult that God which he, (1) isn’t genuinely capable of understanding, and (2) is (by nature) disinclined to either imitate or serve. Aren’t your sinful minds capable to comprehend that when you post all of this specious, pseudo-intellectual crap so many of you like to wallow in, that you are actually doing the devil’s work for him? Without you guys running your blasphemous mouths it would be just that much more difficult for Satan to put his lies across! So, while suffering fools as little as possible, here are the correct answers to a number of your accusations:
Animal Mother, you’re a real bible scholar; aren’t you. :puking:

One of the many realities you fail to perceive is that a strong mental prejudice and an obtuse (evil) spirit color ALL of your religious perceptions. So, I’m going to slip this one in, ‘right in front of your face' for you to consider:

‘Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Thy loving kindness, according unto the multitude of Thy tender mercies, blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sins; for, I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in Thy sight: that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest, and be vindicated when Thou judgest aright.’

‘Behold, I was shapened in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, Thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part Thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Cause me to know joy and gladness that these bones which Thou hast broken may rejoice.’

(Psalm 51. King David - The richest and most powerful man who’s ever lived - repenting his sins before God.)

That’s the answer to your first question. The answer to your second blasphemy, ‘How does God jerking Job around prove anything?’ is that the sufferings of Job and the questions raised in Job’s mind by his travail (Which is, by simple mental extension, the sufferings of ALL MEN.) proves absolutely nothing TO YOU. Too bad you haven’t, ‘the heart’ to see it. Another one of the principal spiritual realities you completely fail to grasp is that: YOU DO NOT EXIST INSIDE A SPIRITUAL VACUUM. There is no such event as human behavior without consequence - You only imagine that there is. In fact I suspect you’re betting on it; but it’s a sucker bet on your part; and you’re going to lose. (You heard it here, first!)

High-Gear, once again, He’s NOT only, ‘my God’. Like it, or not, He’s your God, too. A principal difference between us is that I recognize this spiritual reality; and I am willing to accept it while you do not, and will not. I do have a question for you, though: When you use the word, ‘trash’ are you referring to the fact that - as described above by the Psalmist - all men are born in sin, or are you referring to the particular social and economic circumstances of your own birth?

NMG26, then you would daresay wrong! All of Judeo-Christian scripture is entirely consistent upon the basic spiritual precept that all of mankind is born in sin. (Have you forgotten that The Christ said, ‘Ye must be born again’?) Children are NOT innocent. Outside the Holy Bible even Reynolds’s portrait of a little 3 year old girl - titled as, ‘The Age Of Innocence’ - intimates this foible of human nature. (You’re not a connoisseur of the fine arts, though, are you!) :supergrin:

OK, this is as far as I’m going to, ‘suffer fools’ today. I'll leave you with one last scripture:

‘How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity; and the scorners delight in their scorning; and fools hate knowledge?’

‘Turn you at My reproof: Behold, I will pour out My Spirit unto you; I will make known My words unto you. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My Hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at naught all My counsel, and would have none of My reproof.’

‘I, also, will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; when your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon Me, but I will not answer; they shall seek Me early, but they shall not find Me.’

(The Book Of Proverbs 1:23-28)

Lest anyone take unwarranted offense: If I haven’t mollycoddled any of you then know that your offenses, your intellects, stink in the Nostrils Of The Lord. The sins you are committing, here, in this public forum are NOT going to go unnoticed at, ‘Heaven’s door’. Better it would be for everyone if you were to simply shut up and stop your blaspheming. However, the nature of evil, of human stupidity, is such that I very much doubt this is going to happen. :freak:

GreenDrake
07-12-2012, 09:43
Christ died for the sins of all men.


Folks, if you REALLY think we evolved from muck, then you are wasting your time here.

Gold, Jerry, pure gold.

Guss
07-12-2012, 09:49
It's impossible to blaspheme something that doesn't exist.
It's quite another thing to lambast foolish thought.

Guss
07-12-2012, 09:51
Christ died for the sins of all men.
...
What a silly story!

Altaris
07-12-2012, 09:57
Evolution explains pain. Nature doesn't care about suffering because it evolved around a system of life consuming life. Getting eaten is painful so you'll be motivated to avoid it and survive long enough to reproduce.


Yup, Pain is simply an evolutionary survival tool.
If I had no pain I could just stand in a fire or walk into lava and not think anything of it...and I will die from it. Pain lets me know that my body is in trouble and I better fix the situation. The more pain, the faster I better react.

Syclone538
07-12-2012, 10:05
How is it that so many of you fail to perceive that life is NOT some sort of a silly game?
...

Of course not. This life is all we have.

...
Don’t any of you reprobates realize that you’re going to, ‘go down in flames’?
...
Aren’t your sinful minds capable to comprehend that when you post all of this specious, pseudo-intellectual crap that so many of you like to wallow in that you are actually doing the devil’s work for him?
...

These questions make me wonder if you know what the word atheist means. If not, don't worry, you're not alone.

...
High-Gear, ... When you use the word, ‘trash’ are you referring to the fact that - as described above by the Psalmist - all men are born in sin, or are you referring to the particular economic circumstances of your own birth?
...

Very Christian of you.

Altaris
07-12-2012, 10:33
:shocked: Wow! It looks like the R.I.F., 'Peanut Gallery' has really gotten itself all hyped up over this one. Well, first children, He's not only, 'my God'; whether you like it, or not, He's your God, too. A principal difference between us is that I accept the God Who defines Himself in the Judeo-Christian Bible as THE One True God; and you do not.


Do you have any evidence that he is the one true god, and not Zeus, or Thor, or Beetlejuice?


Comments for which each of you is absolutely, positively going to stand and answer for in the coming Judgment. I really have to wonder: How is it that so many of you fail to perceive that life is NOT some sort of a silly game? Life is NOT a temperamental hodgepodge of: brazen, godless, and self-indulgent thoughts and behaviors - All without any enduring consequence.


Correct, life is not a silly game. It is all I have, so I am going to love it, cherish it, and do my best to leave this world in a better place than I found it. I also don't want to leave the enduring consequences of being a bad person to my children's generation.


Do you not know that the very hairs of your head are numbered; AND, likewise, so are your sins?


Yes, I know my hairs are numbered. You just count them. That is easy to verify and prove.
Do you have any evidence about sins though?


None of you, I am certain, would dare to jump into the bear cage at the Bronx Zoo; but, with reckless incredible stupidity, you fly in The Face Of God and insult His Good And Holy Name.


So you are comparing something with verifiable evidence(messing with a bear), with something which has none?


The fearless behavior of many of you astonishes me! Personally, I’d rather go to the gallows, or to a headsman’s axe before I would utter any of the insults and blasphemies you, so freely, rail against God.

You would rather have your head cut off then question god? That sounds like something the Taliban would do.


When you use the word, ‘trash’ are you referring to the fact that - as described above by the Psalmist - all men are born in sin, or are you referring to the particular economic circumstances of your own birth?

Do you have any evidence of this 'fact' that we are all born in sin?



The sins you are committing, here, in this public forum are NOT going to go unnoticed at, ‘Heaven’s door’. Better it would be for everyone if you were to simply shut up and stop your blaspheming.

So god reads the internet as well?

scccdoc
07-12-2012, 10:48
I saw a vid of children butchered by rival african tribes. One child was fleeing with her foot flopping on a broken bone.

In a book called "Have Atheists Proved There Is No God", the author discusses the problem of pain and the existence of God.

In light of innocents suffering, how would you explain this paradox? Free will? The fall of man?

And please, no 7th Day cultists respond. Your desire is not to illuminate, but to dominate. Thanx.

Read "A Case For Faith" by Lee Strobel. I think there are good explanations in Chapter 3 or 4. Been a while for me, time to reread............. DOC

High-Gear
07-12-2012, 10:56
:High-Gear, once again, He’s NOT only, ‘my God’. Like it, or not, He’s your God, too. A principal difference between us is that I recognize this spiritual reality; and I am willing to accept it while you do not, and will not. I do have a question for you, though: When you use the word, ‘trash’ are you referring to the fact that - as described above by the Psalmist - all men are born in sin, or are you referring to the particular economic circumstances of your own birth:

The American Taliban strikes again!

Oh and Syclone...it is very Christian of him. Not very Christ like...but a very christian way to act.

Snapper2
07-12-2012, 11:19
How do we deal the reality of pain and suffering? :dunno:Well just read this thread. We blame each other and inflict more of the same. Myself included. Arc Angel is right on for what he believes in. The original post starts it off by slandering a group of people. Where does it end? The religious will slander other religions that dont believe as they do. What makes anyone think this isnt just a religious issue? This reminds me of a Rolling Stones song.:whistling:

Japle
07-12-2012, 14:18
Posted by Arc Angel:
Do you not know that the very hairs of your head are numbered; AND, likewise, so are your sins? None of you, I am certain, would dare to jump into the bear cage at the Bronx Zoo; but, with reckless incredible stupidity, you fly in The Face Of God and insult His Good And Holy Name. The fearless behavior of many of you astonishes me! Personally, I’d rather go to the gallows, or to a headsman’s axe before I would utter any of the insults and blasphemies you, so freely, rail against God. Make no mistake! In the foreseeable future humanity is in for some really tough times.

Let me tell you what a really clever man would do here: Not knowing, for certain, what he’s talking about a really clever man would, REMAIN SILENT rather than: rant, rave, and insult that God which he, (1) isn’t genuinely capable of understanding, and (2) is (by nature) disinclined to either imitate or serve. Aren’t your sinful minds capable to comprehend that when you post all of this specious, pseudo-intellectual crap that so many of you like to wallow in that you are actually doing the devil’s work for him? Without you guys running your blasphemous mouths it would be just that much more difficult for Satan to put his lies across!
….and so on.

What any of this has to do with the subject at hand, namely how to explain the existence of pain and suffering, is beyond me. Possibly you’re unable to answer the question being presented, so you veer off on an unrelated tangent, attacking those on the other side of the argument and hoping we’ll ignore the fact that you’ve got nothin’.

Gunhaver
07-12-2012, 16:46
:shocked: Wow! It looks like the R.I.F., 'Peanut Gallery' has really gotten itself all hyped up over this one. Well, first children, He's not only, 'my God'; whether you like it, or not, He's your God, too. A principal difference between us is that I accept the God Who defines Himself in the Judeo-Christian Bible as THE One True God; and you do not.

I, almost, don’t know where to begin? The accepted course would be for me to ignore all of you; but, if I do that then someone else who might be thinking of becoming like you might, because of my silence, stumble and fall in with your own low spiritual ilk. So, for the moment, I’m going to overlook not, ‘suffering fools’ or, ‘casting pearls before swine’ and address a few of your comments.

(Comments for which each of you is absolutely, positively going to stand and answer for in the coming Judgment. I really have to wonder: How is it that so many of you fail to perceive that life is NOT some sort of a silly game? Life is NOT a temperamental hodgepodge of: brazen, godless, and self-indulgent thoughts and behaviors - All without any enduring consequence.)

Do you not know that the very hairs of your head are numbered; AND, likewise, so are your sins? None of you, I am certain, would dare to jump into the bear cage at the Bronx Zoo; but, with reckless incredible stupidity, you fly in The Face Of God and insult His Good And Holy Name. The fearless behavior of many of you astonishes me! Personally, I’d rather go to the gallows, or to a headsman’s axe before I would utter any of the insults and blasphemies you, so freely, rail against God. Make no mistake! In the foreseeable future humanity is in for some really tough times. Christians and Jews like me ARE going to be on the losing side FOR AWHILE; but, then, everything’s going to change; and that God Whom you have insulted is going to come forward and prevail. Don’t any of you reprobates realize that you’re going to, ‘go down in flames’?

Let me tell you what a really clever man would do here: Not knowing, for certain, what he’s talking about a really clever man would, REMAIN SILENT rather than: rant, rave, and insult that God which he, (1) isn’t genuinely capable of understanding, and (2) is (by nature) disinclined to either imitate or serve. Aren’t your sinful minds capable to comprehend that when you post all of this specious, pseudo-intellectual crap so many of you like to wallow in, that you are actually doing the devil’s work for him? Without you guys running your blasphemous mouths it would be just that much more difficult for Satan to put his lies across! So, while suffering fools as little as possible, here are the correct answers to a number of your accusations:
Animal Mother, you’re a real bible scholar; aren’t you. :puking:

One of the many realities you fail to perceive is that a strong mental prejudice and an obtuse (evil) spirit color ALL of your religious perceptions. So, I’m going to slip this one in, ‘right in front of your face' for you to consider:

‘Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Thy loving kindness, according unto the multitude of Thy tender mercies, blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sins; for, I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in Thy sight: that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest, and be vindicated when Thou judgest aright.’

‘Behold, I was shapened in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, Thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part Thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Cause me to know joy and gladness that these bones which Thou hast broken may rejoice.’

(Psalm 51. King David - The richest and most powerful man who’s ever lived - repenting his sins before God.)

That’s the answer to your first question. The answer to your second blasphemy, ‘How does God jerking Job around prove anything?’ is that the sufferings of Job and the questions raised in Job’s mind by his travail (Which is, by simple mental extension, the sufferings of ALL MEN.) proves absolutely nothing TO YOU. Too bad you haven’t, ‘the heart’ to see it. Another one of the principal spiritual realities you completely fail to grasp is that: YOU DO NOT EXIST INSIDE A SPIRITUAL VACUUM. There is no such event as human behavior without consequence - You only imagine that there is. In fact I suspect you’re betting on it; but it’s a sucker bet on your part; and you’re going to lose. (You heard it here, first!)

High-Gear, once again, He’s NOT only, ‘my God’. Like it, or not, He’s your God, too. A principal difference between us is that I recognize this spiritual reality; and I am willing to accept it while you do not, and will not. I do have a question for you, though: When you use the word, ‘trash’ are you referring to the fact that - as described above by the Psalmist - all men are born in sin, or are you referring to the particular social and economic circumstances of your own birth?

NMG26, then you would daresay wrong! All of Judeo-Christian scripture is entirely consistent upon the basic spiritual precept that all of mankind is born in sin. (Have you forgotten that The Christ said, ‘Ye must be born again’?) Children are NOT innocent. Outside the Holy Bible even Reynolds’s portrait of a little 3 year old girl - titled as, ‘The Age Of Innocence’ - intimates this foible of human nature. (You’re not a connoisseur of the fine arts, though, are you!) :supergrin:

OK, this is as far as I’m going to, ‘suffer fools’ today. I'll leave you with one last scripture:

‘How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity; and the scorners delight in their scorning; and fools hate knowledge?’

‘Turn you at My reproof: Behold, I will pour out My Spirit unto you; I will make known My words unto you. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My Hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at naught all My counsel, and would have none of My reproof.’

‘I, also, will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; when your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon Me, but I will not answer; they shall seek Me early, but they shall not find Me.’

(The Book Of Proverbs 1:23-28)

Lest anyone take unwarranted offense: If I haven’t mollycoddled any of you then know that your offenses, your intellects, stink in the Nostrils Of The Lord. The sins you are committing, here, in this public forum are NOT going to go unnoticed at, ‘Heaven’s door’. Better it would be for everyone if you were to simply shut up and stop your blaspheming. However, the nature of evil, of human stupidity, is such that I very much doubt this is going to happen. :freak:

ULTIMATE SHOWDOWN: Crazy Parking Lot Lady VS The God Warrior - YouTube

G26S239
07-12-2012, 17:36
YOU DO NOT EXIST INSIDE A SPIRITUAL VACUUM.
Existing inside a vacuum would really suck.

G26S239
07-12-2012, 17:40
ULTIMATE SHOWDOWN: Crazy Parking Lot Lady VS The God Warrior - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIlt8rTl1T0&feature=related)
Thank you for that uplifting message Gunhaver. She is truly blessed. :wavey:

High-Gear
07-12-2012, 17:54
Existing inside a vacuum would really suck.

Ba Dum Cha! :supergrin:

Animal Mother
07-12-2012, 22:21
I, almost, don’t know where to begin? How about producing some evidence to back all of your claims. That seems like a good place.
Let me tell you what a really clever man would do here: Not knowing, for certain, what he’s talking about a really clever man would, REMAIN SILENT If we did that, we'd never make any progress. Absolute certainty isn't something we can hope to achieve.
Animal Mother, you’re a real bible scholar; aren’t you. More so than most, it would seem.
One of the many realities you fail to perceive is that a strong mental prejudice and an obtuse (evil) spirit color ALL of your religious perceptions. How could you possibly know this unless you're equating disagreeing with your beliefs with being evil.
King David - The richest and most powerful man who’s ever lived - repenting his sins before God. King David was a minor hill chieftain. He wasn't even the most powerful king in his general region, much less in the world or throughout history.
That’s the answer to your first question. The answer to your second blasphemy, ‘How does God jerking Job around prove anything?’ is that the sufferings of Job and the questions raised in Job’s mind by his travail (Which is, by simple mental extension, the sufferings of ALL MEN.) proves absolutely nothing TO YOU. Too bad you haven’t, ‘the heart’ to see it. Another one of the principal spiritual realities you completely fail to grasp is that: YOU DO NOT EXIST INSIDE A SPIRITUAL VACUUM. There is no such event as human behavior without consequence - You only imagine that there is. In fact I suspect you’re betting on it; but it’s a sucker bet on your part; and you’re going to lose. (You heard it here, first!) Odd, I see a lot of condemnation and dire warnings but I don't see any actual evidence.

Guss
07-12-2012, 22:30
Was there pain in the Garden of Eden?

Tilley
07-13-2012, 00:48
Thank you Arc Angel. Sometimes it seems as if Heaven will be a lonely place.

NMG26
07-13-2012, 07:11
NMG26, then you would daresay wrong! All of Judeo-Christian scripture is entirely consistent upon the basic spiritual precept that all of mankind is born in sin. (Have you forgotten that The Christ said, ‘Ye must be born again’?) Children are NOT innocent. Outside the Holy Bible even Reynolds’s portrait of a little 3 year old girl - titled as, ‘The Age Of Innocence’ - intimates this foible of human nature. (You’re not a connoisseur of the fine arts, though, are you!) :supergrin:

Your understanding of "born in sin" is where the problem is here.

It does not say "born a sinner".

Sin is a choice that children can not make.

Born into corrruption does not make one corrupt though they may pick it up quite quickly.

And if the apostles are saying that children are born sinners then the apostles are wrong. It is just an old school philosophy that can be disregarded.

Children are innocent.

Never read 'The Age Of Innocence’.

berniew
07-14-2012, 16:49
From my notes (if you find a specific source let me know)

The existence of evil is not just a problem for theists.

Everyone may not agree on what is right or wrong, or even that there are universal absolute moral standards, however everyone thinks in terms of right and wrong just as surely as they think in term of left and right. How do atheists explain the existence of any morality at all? How do they determine what is good or what is bad?

Here are some supposed solutions

“We know that something is good when it produces approval.”
or
“We know that something is good when society approves of it”


(1) If true we can’t make judgments against societies as a whole
(a) Statements like “the entire German society was wrong for oppressing the Jews” makes no sense

(2) If doesn’t explain how we can think of good or evil as an attribute
(a) How do I know that someone has brown hair? Do we wait for society to decide what brown is?


“We know that something is good when we think it is good"


(1) If we can never criticize any decision because every individual is ultimate we can not have a rational discussion about good and evil

(2) It reduces the idea of good and evil down to preferences. “I’ll have fries with my McTorture”


“We know something is good when it produces a desired end or goal.”

a) Something is good when it leads to a certain consequence. First you choose a goal, and then you do whatever it takes to get there, and as long as you get there whatever you did to get there was good.

(1) Why did you choose that goal? What makes it worthy?
(2) All you have done is shift the question from the means to the goal




the problem of pain and the existence of God.

Gunhaver
07-14-2012, 16:54
Thank you Arc Angel. Sometimes it seems as if Heaven will be a lonely place.

I'm sure you won't notice.

High-Gear
07-14-2012, 16:57
BernieW,

How do atheists know right from wrong?

I've heard it explained that morality comes down to causing harm or suffering to another living feeling thing. Those things which cause suffering are not moral, those which relieve sugfering are.

This is why we have no moral obligation to rocks, they do not suffer. These are not absolute. We kill deer, but most deer hunters would try for the cleanest kill which causes the least suffering, and feel bad when they wound a deer. We find it morally wrong to kill another human, unless we are trying to save others from suffering at the hands of said human.

We don't need a book, or an invisible god to tell us these things are wrong.

berniew
07-14-2012, 17:07
So the thesis is

"It's all good as long as no one get's hurt?"

The problem is that view is so entirely subjective.

BernieW,

How do atheists know right from wrong?

I've heard it explained that morality comes down to causing harm or suffering to another living feeling thing. Those things which cause suffering are not moral, those which relieve sugfering are.

This is why we have no moral obligation to rocks, they do not suffer. These are not absolute. We kill deer, but most deer hunters would try for the cleanest kill which causes the least suffering, and feel bad when they wound a deer. We find it morally wrong to kill another human, unless we are trying to save others from suffering at the hands of said human.

We don't need a book, or an invisible god to tell us these things are wrong.

High-Gear
07-14-2012, 17:33
So the thesis is

"It's all good as long as no one get's hurt?"

The problem is that view is so entirely subjective.

Yes it is, which is why there are no moral absolutes.

berniew
07-14-2012, 18:14
Yes it is, which is why there are no moral absolutes.

So we are both right

Tilley
07-14-2012, 23:39
I'm sure you won't notice.

If I am not in Heaven, who will sell you ice cubes?:wavey:

Cavalry Doc
07-15-2012, 06:24
I'm sure you won't notice.

Interesting. How sure are you?

Gunhaver
07-15-2012, 11:45
Interesting. How sure are you?

99.999% sure. That's good enough for me.

Cavalry Doc
07-15-2012, 12:04
Not very agnostic about it at all then. OK.

IhRedrider
07-15-2012, 14:01
99.999% sure.

So you don't really know. That's OK.

Geko45
07-15-2012, 14:11
99.999% sure. That's good enough for me.

Not very agnostic about it at all then. OK.

So you don't really know. That's OK.

Together, these three statements can serve as a metaphor for every debate that has occured on this forum.

jakebrake
07-15-2012, 14:20
i don't rememember seeing "thou shalt not feel pain" in my king james.

Gunhaver
07-15-2012, 14:26
Not very agnostic about it at all then. OK.

That's why I call myself an atheist instead of an agnostic.

You know, I used to not know about Higgs Boson. Then I read about it and thought it made sense. Then it was verified and so now I believe in it 99.999%. That last .001% of disbelief only means that I won't hold on to the belief in light of any future evidence that may come along to offer an even better explanation.

These religious ideas that get thrown around every day don't even pass the making sense test, let alone the verification test. So don't try to tell me that they're equally valid equally plausible concepts or that I'm foolish for not considering them as a possibility.

Cavalry Doc
07-15-2012, 15:25
Together, these three statements can serve as a metaphor for every debate that has occured on this forum.

The "so you don't know" thing is a play off of a hot dog commercial. Cant remember the brand, but three guys are grilling dogs (paraphrasing)

Guy one: quotes a sports trivia quote,
Guy two: asks him if he is sure,
Guy one: I'm 99.9% sure.
Guy three: So you don't know then.....

The hot dogs are 100% beef, so the joke is 99.9% isn't good enough.

Cavalry Doc
07-15-2012, 15:29
That's why I call myself an atheist instead of an agnostic.

You know, I used to not know about Higgs Boson. Then I read about it and thought it made sense. Then it was verified and so now I believe in it 99.999%. That last .001% of disbelief only means that I won't hold on to the belief in light of any future evidence that may come along to offer an even better explanation.

These religious ideas that get thrown around every day don't even pass the making sense test, let alone the verification test. So don't try to tell me that they're equally valid equally plausible concepts or that I'm foolish for not considering them as a possibility.

I understand, religious people have to have faith.

Gunhaver
07-15-2012, 15:53
I understand, religious people have to have faith.

Exactly, whereas I have evidence.

Geko45
07-15-2012, 16:41
The "so you don't know" thing is a play off of a hot dog commercial. Cant remember the brand, but three guys are grilling dogs (paraphrasing)

Guy one: quotes a sports trivia quote,
Guy two: asks him if he is sure,
Guy one: I'm 99.9% sure.
Guy three: So you don't know then.....

The hot dogs are 100% beef, so the joke is 99.9% isn't good enough.

Maybe this is why so many theistic mythos systems have a problem with pork.

:tongueout:

Tilley
07-16-2012, 01:28
Exactly, whereas I have evidence.


Dear Gunhaver...Evidence of what? Evolution? You have got to stop listening to the fairy tales AM has been spreading. He is an angry person mislead by a legion of idiotic demons.
There is a thousand times more proof of Jesus than a whimsical tale of 10-ton dinosaurs turning into sparrows.

Mister_Beefy
07-16-2012, 02:31
can't understand joy if you have not felt sorrow.

Animal Mother
07-16-2012, 02:53
Dear Gunhaver...Evidence of what? Evolution? You have got to stop listening to the fairy tales AM has been spreading. He is an angry person mislead by a legion of idiotic demons.
There is a thousand times more proof of Jesus than a whimsical tale of 10-ton dinosaurs turning into sparrows.Really? Insults aside, why not try sharing that evidence. The evidence of an evolutionary relationship between birds and dinosaurs includes dinosaurs with feathers and common skeletal structures. What proof do you have for the divinity of Jesus?

Unless you're being extremely literal, in that it isn't likely the dinosaurs actually turned into birds, rather than evolving over time as all life does.

High-Gear
07-16-2012, 03:57
Dear Gunhaver...Evidence of what? Evolution? You have got to stop listening to the fairy tales AM has been spreading. He is an angry person mislead by a legion of idiotic demons.
There is a thousand times more proof of Jesus than a whimsical tale of 10-ton dinosaurs turning into sparrows.

Where have you been hiding it? Please share the evidence!

Gunhaver
07-16-2012, 05:12
Dear Gunhaver...Evidence of what? Evolution? You have got to stop listening to the fairy tales AM has been spreading. He is an angry person mislead by a legion of idiotic demons.
There is a thousand times more proof of Jesus than a whimsical tale of 10-ton dinosaurs turning into sparrows.

http://chzanimalgifs.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/funny-animal-gifs-oh-heeeeeeeyull-naaaaaaw.gif

You wanna dance with me smart guy? You really think you know half as much about evolution as I know about Jesus?

Tell you what we'll do. Given that I was raised Christian and gave sermons in my church even up until I was 18 and didn't even believe that garbage anymore you ask me anything you like about Jesus and I'll give you the answer you're looking for. I might have to google it (probably not) but you won't find anything close to what I write in quotations because it'll be articulated in my own words to show that I at least grasp the concept even if I don't believe it. Then I'll ask you a question about evolution and you can do the same, research it and grasp the friggin concept of what I'm asking and tell me the answer in your own words. We can go back and forth like that until one of us just can't stand to play any longer for fear of looking ever increasingly more foolish.

I'll let you take the first swing. Frankly I don't think you have the balls. In fact I'm 99.999% sure.

Bren
07-16-2012, 05:31
So you don't really know. That's OK.

The difference between a rational person and an irrational/religious person is the ability to say "we don't know" instead of making up fake answers and then claiming to believe them.

On the other hand, a complete lack of evidence should equal a complete lack of belief, so maybe Gunhaver has more faith than the evidence can support.

Bren
07-16-2012, 05:33
Dear Gunhaver...Evidence of what? Evolution? You have got to stop listening to the fairy tales AM has been spreading. He is an angry person mislead by a legion of idiotic demons.
There is a thousand times more proof of Jesus than a whimsical tale of 10-ton dinosaurs turning into sparrows.

I don't doubt that Jesus existed. I just doubt what you think that proves about your religion. History is full of people who actually existed and claimed to be descended from gods and claimed loads of miracles for loads of different gods. So?

series1811
07-16-2012, 06:59
You wanna dance with me smart guy? You really think you know half as much about evolution as I know about Jesus?



No, no way. Internet badasses are a special kind of scary.

Tilley
07-16-2012, 11:32
Dear Bren and Gunhaver,

I look forward to squashing you both on the intellectual battlefield, buy alas...I am busy for a few days patrolling the streets of Metropolis.

Up-up...and away!!! :supergrin:

High-Gear
07-16-2012, 11:57
Dear Bren and Gunhaver,

I look forward to squashing you both on the intellectual battlefield, buy alas...I am busy for a few days patrolling the streets of Metropolis.

Up-up...and away!!! :supergrin:

In other words.....You got nuttin!

Bren
07-16-2012, 12:17
Dear Bren and Gunhaver,

I look forward to squashing you both on the intellectual battlefield, buy alas...I am busy for a few days patrolling the streets of Metropolis.

Up-up...and away!!! :supergrin:

Too bad. Seeing you squashing anybody on the intellectual battlefield would have been a novel experience for us all, believer and non-believer alike.:upeyes:

scccdoc
07-16-2012, 12:35
Too bad. Seeing you squashing anybody on the intellectual battlefield would have been a novel experience for us all, believer and non-believer alike.:upeyes:

Bren, why are you always so sarcastic and angry (other than this previous post) toward Christians ? DOC

Bren
07-16-2012, 13:59
Bren, why are you always so sarcastic and angry (other than this previous post) toward Christians ? DOC

I have a very low tolerance for irrational people. I'm even more so in real life.

I notice you consider me angry and sarcastic toward Tilley, yet "I look forward to squashing you both on the intellectual battlefield" was his comment.

scccdoc
07-16-2012, 14:28
I have a very low tolerance for irrational people. I'm even more so in real life.

I notice you consider me angry and sarcastic toward Tilley, yet "I look forward to squashing you both on the intellectual battlefield" was his comment.

Please note that I disqualified that comment. Do you consider all Christians irrational or just the ones on this board?

High-Gear
07-16-2012, 15:05
Please note that I disqualified that comment. Do you consider all Christians irrational or just the ones on this board?

I think this sums it up well.

http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/photo/show?id=2182797%3APhoto%3A1981288

http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/photo/show?id=2182797%3APhoto%3A1981288

For some reason I can not imbed the image, follow the link.
Can someone help me out?

Lone Wolf8634
07-16-2012, 15:55
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll174/lonewolf8634/house.jpg

Gunhaver
07-16-2012, 16:10
Dear Bren and Gunhaver,

I look forward to squashing you both on the intellectual battlefield, buy alas...I am busy for a few days patrolling the streets of Metropolis.

Up-up...and away!!! :supergrin:

So you're choosing to damn me to hell by refusing to accept my challenge and filling in the gaps in my knowledge of Jesus with your thousand times more evidence? How Christian of you.

What will you say to St. Peter when he asks you why you abandoned this lost soul pleading for your guidance?

WWJD?

High-Gear
07-16-2012, 16:58
So you're choosing to damn me to hell by refusing to accept my challenge and filling in the gaps in my knowledge of Jesus with your thousand times more evidence? How Christian of you.

What will you say to St. Peter when he asks you why you abandoned this lost soul pleading for your guidance?

WWJD?

My thought exactly! I'm anxiously waiting for all of this evidence he keeps for himself!

Tilley
07-17-2012, 00:09
Too bad. Seeing you squashing anybody on the intellectual battlefield would have been a novel experience for us all, believer and non-believer alike.:upeyes:

Mean people suck.:upeyes:

Tilley
07-17-2012, 00:43
What will you say to St. Peter when he asks you why you abandoned this lost soul pleading for your guidance?
WWJD?

Peter: Why did you abandon Gunhaver oh wise Man of Steel?

Tilley: Gunhaver voter for Obama.

Peter:Whew! That was close...

jbotstein1
07-17-2012, 01:12
Do you not know that the very hairs of your head are numbered; AND, likewise, so are your sins?

Aren't many babies born bald?

ETA: How can you or anyone believe that a newborn child killed in a tribal war is not innocent? I'm not being argumentative, I just would like to understand how you justify that assertion. I simply cannot understand how someone who does not have the ability to have conscious thoughts can be perceived as being sinful or a sinner.

High-Gear
07-17-2012, 04:04
Peter: Why did you abandon Gunhaver oh wise Man of Steel?

Tilley: Gunhaver voter for Obama.

Peter:Whew! That was close...

And I thought we were dealing with a genius who was going to mentally destroy people with mounds of evidence! This is what we get instead? :faint:

Lets make it easy....

Give us one piece of evidence, just one for the existance of Jesus Christ. One little shred, one mention of him outside of the bible. Come on only one pearl from the "thousands" you've got. You had better serve up your best one though, don't be afraid to see it get jacked out of the ball park.

Gunhaver
07-17-2012, 04:20
Peter: Why did you abandon Gunhaver oh wise Man of Steel?

Tilley: Gunhaver voter for Obama.

Peter:Whew! That was close...

Didn't vote for him last time and don't plan to vote for him this time. But thank's for more insight into your limited cognitive abilities. If someone is an atheist they must be a socialist leftist Obama lover right? That's what you're constantly told during your voluntary brainwashing sessions and far be it from you to go investigate something and figure it out for yourself.

So how 'bout it Tilley? You gonna accept my challenge and test my knowledge of Jesus? Tell you what, I'll answer two questions to your every one? Three? What sort of handicap would you like here? Walk the walk Superman. Lex Luther is flipping you the bird here...

scccdoc
07-17-2012, 06:52
I think this sums it up well.

http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/photo/show?id=2182797%3APhoto%3A1981288

http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/photo/show?id=2182797%3APhoto%3A1981288

For some reason I can not imbed the image, follow the link.
Can someone help me out?

I was speaking to Bren, not you, but if you want to reply with something other than an "actor" or an animal, I'd be interested. It concerns me that there is so much hostility on this forum, our country faces challenges far greater than REVISITING the right or rationality to worship. Seems a bit irrational to me............. DOC

High-Gear
07-17-2012, 09:09
I was speaking to Bren, not you, but if you want to reply with something other than an "actor" or an animal, I'd be interested. It concerns me that there is so much hostility on this forum, our country faces challenges far greater than REVISITING the right or rationality to worship. Seems a bit irrational to me............. DOC

Send a PM if you don't want others to chime in. The point was not who said it, but rather the message, but I guess that was lost on you.

I guess its only hostile when you aren't getting your way.

scccdoc
07-17-2012, 10:00
Send a PM if you don't want others to chime in. The point was not who said it, but rather the message, but I guess that was lost on you.

I guess its only hostile when you aren't getting your way.

"It concerns me that there is so much hostility on this forum, our country faces challenges far greater than REVISITING the right or rationality to worship. Seems a bit irrational to me".

Maybe you don't agree or you've taken this out of context.Or maybe you think the country is in good shape..............:wow:

teumessian_fox
07-17-2012, 16:34
So is the book trying to prove there is no God based on pain?

No. He takes the opposite position. The (late) author was one of the greatest living Christian apologists of his time.

teumessian_fox
07-17-2012, 16:40
Do you have difficulty defending your position when 7th day cultists show up?

Definitely not. However, whenever GTs own 7th day cultists show up, it's purely to dominate the thread, usually concerning things they obviously know nothing about.

The problem with cultists (all of them)..................
http://cdn-parable.com/ProdImage/Large/57/9780802804457.jpg
.......is that by their very definition, they must of necessity suspend objectivity and rational thought.

Sorry you took offense.

teumessian_fox
07-17-2012, 16:45
(I daresay that if you had previously read - and pondered - the Book of Job and, in particular, all of Chapter 3, as well as Chapter 5, verses 17-19 then you would have already answered your own question. That you have not already done this tells me a great deal about you.)

In point of fact, you know even less about me than you do theology (if such a thing were possible).

The Book of Job is, in the mind of many, the only explanation for the subject at hand. Job suffers. His friends insist he has done something worthy of such suffering. Job denies the accusation. God enters the conversation and the upshot is that His will is really nobody's business but His own.

It's a valid perspective, but I'm interested in what others think.

This is a dialogue re the subject of pain. Obviously you're more interested in monologue. In that case, you should stay on forums where they only entertain your peculiar ideas. On whatever.

Kingarthurhk
07-18-2012, 20:50
I saw a vid of children butchered by rival african tribes. One child was fleeing with her foot flopping on a broken bone.

In a book called "Have Atheists Proved There Is No God", the author discusses the problem of pain and the existence of God.

In light of innocents suffering, how would you explain this paradox? Free will? The fall of man?

And please, no 7th Day cultists respond. Your desire is not to illuminate, but to dominate. Thanx.

What exactly is that, and what exactly are you?

Kingarthurhk
07-18-2012, 20:51
Definitely not. However, whenever GTs own 7th day cultists show up, it's purely to dominate the thread, usually concerning things they obviously know nothing about.

The problem with cultists (all of them)..................
http://cdn-parable.com/ProdImage/Large/57/9780802804457.jpg
.......is that by their very definition, they must of necessity suspend objectivity and rational thought.

Sorry you took offense.

Spoken like a fool.

Kingarthurhk
07-18-2012, 21:18
i don't rememember seeing "thou shalt not feel pain" in my king james.

I wish it was in mine. I am tired of living with pain. But, who is to blame? Well, I am irritated with the situation, but God didn't do it to me. So, it isn't His fault. Maybe I should blame my mother for birthing me. It wasn't my choice to be here. But, I don't. She had no idea things would turn out this way. Well, I am out of people to blame. So, I guess I might as well accept that in this incarnation the hand I was dealt was pain and a heaping helping of it. Looking forward to being transformed in a twinkling of an eye and casting off the mortal for the immortal. Then, no more pain.

As a final thought perpetual pain sucks.

Animal Mother
07-19-2012, 02:54
I wish it was in mine. I am tired of living with pain. But, who is to blame? Well, I am irritated with the situation, but God didn't do it to me. There are things God does not control?
So, it isn't His fault. Maybe I should blame my mother for birthing me. It wasn't my choice to be here. But, I don't. She had no idea things would turn out this way. Well, I am out of people to blame. So, I guess I might as well accept that in this incarnation the hand I was dealt was pain and a heaping helping of it. Looking forward to being transformed in a twinkling of an eye and casting off the mortal for the immortal. Then, no more pain.

As a final thought perpetual pain sucks.Why not pray to be healed?

High-Gear
07-19-2012, 05:42
There are things God does not control?
Why not pray to be healed?

Good point! The world is rife with stories of miracles, and "healings". Curiously though, god never heals an amputee.:dunno:

Kingarthurhk
07-19-2012, 05:43
There are things God does not control?
Why not pray to be healed?

I have. And from some things I have been and others I have not.

I am certainly lesser than this man:

2 Corinthians 12:7-10, "or because of these surpassingly great revelations. <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29030L))'></sup> Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29030M))'></sup> a messenger of Satan, <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29030N))'></sup> to torment me. <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29031O))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>But he said to me, “My grace <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29032P))'></sup> is sufficient for you, for my power <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29032Q))'></sup> is made perfect in weakness. <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29032R))'></sup> ” <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29032S))'></sup> Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29033T))'></sup> in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29033U))'></sup> in persecutions, <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29033V))'></sup> in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

We aren't always given the greater picture as to why. I just have to trust there is a reason. Potentially, the above mentioned one.

I guess it keeps me from being too conceited perhaps? Perhaps it is to make me more humble. Perhaps it is to make me realize my dependance on God?

Solomon penned some wisdom regarding materialims from a similar perspective:

Proverbs 30:8-9, "Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
give me neither poverty nor riches,
but give me only my daily bread. <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17260K))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Otherwise, I may have too much and disown <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17261L))'></sup> you
and say, ‘Who is the Lord?’ <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17261M))'></sup>
Or I may become poor and steal,
and so dishonor the name of my God." <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17261N))'></sup>

bfg1971
07-19-2012, 09:09
Maybe a better question to ask is what is the solution to pain rather than asking for an explaination of it. You ask why God doesn't prevent all pain when he endured it himself for the sake of our sins. Resurrection is God's solution to pain. A corruptable body made incorruptable means that all weaknesses will be corrected and prevented.

Simply put at some future time God will do what you accuse him of not being able to do.

Perhaps the reason we have pain is so that we can learn to help our fellow man with his pain. As for the truely evil acts described I attibute that to fallen man reaping what he sows. An earlier post asked about pain in the garden of eden, I would submit that prior to the fall there was no pain there.

scccdoc
07-19-2012, 10:40
Maybe a better question to ask is what is the solution to pain rather than asking for an explaination of it. You ask why God doesn't prevent all pain when he endured it himself for the sake of our sins. Resurrection is God's solution to pain. A corruptable body made incorruptable means that all weaknesses will be corrected and prevented.

Simply put at some future time God will do what you accuse him of not being able to do.

Perhaps the reason we have pain is so that we can learn to help our fellow man with his pain. As for the truely evil acts described I attibute that to fallen man reaping what he sows. An earlier post asked about pain in the garden of eden, I would submit that prior to the fall there was no pain there.

Well said, I like your explanation.............. DOC

High-Gear
07-19-2012, 12:11
Maybe a better question to ask is what is the solution to pain rather than asking for an explaination of it. You ask why God doesn't prevent all pain when he endured it himself for the sake of our sins. Resurrection is God's solution to pain. A corruptable body made incorruptable means that all weaknesses will be corrected and prevented.

Simply put at some future time God will do what you accuse him of not being able to do.

Perhaps the reason we have pain is so that we can learn to help our fellow man with his pain. As for the truely evil acts described I attibute that to fallen man reaping what he sows. An earlier post asked about pain in the garden of eden, I would submit that prior to the fall there was no pain there.


So because a talking snake, suggested humans gain knowledge, we are punished with pain? God wants us to be simpletons? Oh, wait we are suppose to have free will, but without knowledge we can not make informed choices.


I guess the sheep reference is more accurate than I thought. Don't think and question, or be punished with pain and disease. ....but he loves you!

scccdoc
07-19-2012, 12:55
So because a talking snake, suggested humans gain knowledge, we are punished with pain? God wants us to be simpletons? Oh, wait we are suppose to have free will, but without knowledge we can not make informed choices.


I guess the sheep reference is more accurate than I thought. Don't think and question, or be punished with pain and disease. ....but he loves you!

High Gear, this is an example of the hostility I referred to earlier............... DOC

teumessian_fox
07-19-2012, 13:53
Simply put at some future time God will do what you accuse him of not being able to do.


Nobody has suggested anything of the sort. Get off your high horse.

This is a thread merely soliciting opinions re the topic. As in, How do you explain the problem of pain?

Walt_NC
07-19-2012, 15:26
Christ died for the sins of all men.

This line always gets me. It seems that dying to save, for all eternity, every man, woman and child that has lived or will ever live is a no-brainer. For the sake of argument, lets put that at 10 billion people saved by one guy dying.

But what about the soldier who willingly jumps on a grenade to save the life of his buddy for another 15 minutes? He sacrificed his life for one person. Doesn't that make his sacrifice that much greater?

High-Gear
07-19-2012, 16:22
High Gear, this is an example of the hostility I referred to earlier............... DOC

Doc, how is I can not make a point or ask a question without you thinking it is being hostile? Maybe questioning the bible at all is seen as hostile, I don't know. Please stop raising the offended flag.

I pointed out a logical failing, that pain was a punishment for the downfall of man. The downfall was eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, whereby Adam and Eve became self aware, so we are all punished with pain now?

So god must have wanted us to remain ignorant, simpletons. If not, why punish us with pain? However that line of thinking fails if we are suppose to have free will, as we can not truly have free will without knowledge.

So we are punished for being what god designed us to be. If that is the case, either god is a horrible designer, or evil.

Snapper2
07-19-2012, 16:53
This line always gets me. It seems that dying to save, for all eternity, every man, woman and child that has lived or will ever live is a no-brainer. For the sake of argument, lets put that at 10 billion people saved by one guy dying.

But what about the soldier who willingly jumps on a grenade to save the life of his buddy for another 15 minutes? He sacrificed his life for one person. Doesn't that make his sacrifice that much greater?
the difference being the man that fell on the grenade did it for a friend/ally. Christ died for those alienated from God.Even those that hated Him.

NMG26
07-19-2012, 16:58
But what about the soldier who willingly jumps on a grenade to save the life of his buddy for another 15 minutes? He sacrificed his life for one person. Doesn't that make his sacrifice that much greater?

Actually I think that is where Christ giving his life for all comes from. Humanity, at its best, does sacrifice for those that they love.

And yes, the sacrifice is much greater because they have no Idea if there is anything after this life or not. Christ knew He was going to be risen..............as the story goes.

scccdoc
07-19-2012, 19:17
Doc, how is I can not make a point or ask a question without you thinking it is being hostile? Maybe questioning the bible at all is seen as hostile, I don't know. Please stop raising the offended flag.

I pointed out a logical failing, that pain was a punishment for the downfall of man. The downfall was eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, whereby Adam and Eve became self aware, so we are all punished with pain now?

So god must have wanted us to remain ignorant, simpletons. If not, why punish us with pain? However that line of thinking fails if we are suppose to have free will, as we can not truly have free will without knowledge.

So we are punished for being what god designed us to be. If that is the case, either god is a horrible designer, or evil.

I guess it's not possible, I'm a sensitive guy............lol

High-Gear
07-19-2012, 19:23
I guess it's not possible, I'm a sensitive guy............lol

Thanks for admitting it.

bfg1971
07-20-2012, 05:28
So because a talking snake, suggested humans gain knowledge, we are punished with pain? God wants us to be simpletons? Oh, wait we are suppose to have free will, but without knowledge we can not make informed choices.


I guess the sheep reference is more accurate than I thought. Don't think and question, or be punished with pain and disease. ....but he loves you!

No not a talking snake suggesting that we gain knowledge, but a talking snake convincing man that God was not being just in his commands.

If you knew what good was why would you choose to know the opposite? Eve was promised that if she ate the fruit she would gain and understanding of good and evil. At that point God had declared everything to be good and mankind to be very good. It is safe to assume that man did not know what evil was because at that time it was not present in the garden until the serpent brought it in.

bfg1971
07-20-2012, 05:33
Nobody has suggested anything of the sort. Get off your high horse.

This is a thread merely soliciting opinions re the topic. As in, How do you explain the problem of pain?

Isn't that how the stereotypical atheist determines that God either doesn't or can't exist? I believe that my answer described the "problem of pain" as well as any other answer here.

ETA: After rereading your original post on the thread and post #2 I would say that both of you claim, or at least reference, what I wrote about in my first post.

Japle
07-20-2012, 07:09
Posted by bfg1971:
It is safe to assume that man did not know what evil was because at that time it was not present in the garden until the serpent brought it in.
And where did the evil come from? Did your god create it and give it to the serpent? Did your god not foresee what the serpent would do with his gift? Since he created the woman, didn’t he know how she would react to the serpent’s offer?

In any case, none of that answers the question of why an innocent infant has to suffer an agonizing death from diphtheria or malaria.
Did your god create the infectious diseases that kill children because of the mistake of one woman thousands of years ago? What kind of monster would do that?

Tilley
07-21-2012, 00:18
This line always gets me. It seems that dying to save, for all eternity, every man, woman and child that has lived or will ever live is a no-brainer. For the sake of argument, lets put that at 10 billion people saved by one guy dying.

But what about the soldier who willingly jumps on a grenade to save the life of his buddy for another 15 minutes? He sacrificed his life for one person. Doesn't that make his sacrifice that much greater?

I'm sorry Walt...could you rephrase your question please.

Crosshair_84
07-27-2012, 18:19
I kinda just pass through these forms every once and awhile and stumbled onto this question and figured I'd answer it.

Give us one piece of evidence, just one for the existance of Jesus Christ. One little shred, one mention of him outside of the bible. Come on only one pearl from the "thousands" you've got. You had better serve up your best one though, don't be afraid to see it get jacked out of the ball park.

Give me one SHRED of evidence for the existence of Abraham Lincoln using sources outside of the 19th century. Can't use anything that uses sources from the 19th century either. Would you be able to do that? Yea, but anything you had would be distant from the original people/events and as a result would lack many details and have a high chance of including inaccuracies, either intentional or accidental.

You are deliberately cherry-picking what evidence you will accept. The New Testament is simply a collection of the EARLIEST sources that were CLOSEST to the people and events that began to be officially compiled in the mid-late 300's AD.

What did a text have to be in order to get included in the NT? The extremely simplified version is: Be written by an apposite or an acquaintance of an apposite. Be written before 100 AD. Be based on firsthand eyewitness testimony.

By those very standards all the best sources were included and all the later derivative texts and forgeries were excluded. All the church did was standardize what was already being used for scripture in most churches. By looking to sources outside the NT you are asking for the less accurate secondary sources. Not that those sources don't have some good bits of information in them.

You want some sources from outside the NT? Would 10 do the job?

Authors outside the NT that mention Jesus before the compilation of the New Testament:

Greek historian Thallus. ~50-75 AD
Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews) ~93AD
Letter from Pliny the Younger to Trajan ~110 AD
Roman historian Tacitus ~115-120 AD
Suetonius (Lives of the Caesars) ~125 AD
Lucian ~mid-2nd century
Galen (De pulsuum differentiis) ~150AD
Celsus (True Discourse) ~170 AD
Mara Bar Serapion ~pre-200?
Talmudic References, written after 300 AD, but some references are believed to go back to eyewitnesses)

Note how almost all of these are from after 100AD and none claim to have firsthand eyewitness testimony, thus they were excluded. Remember that these are just sources outside the NT. Also note that there are only 10 sources TOTAL that mention Caesar, a contemporary of Jesus, within 150 years after his death, two of which are NT documents. (Luke and John) If you deny the existence of Jesus you're going to have an awkward time not also denying the existence of Caesar and almost every ancient historical figure.

Virtually no serious historian denies that Jesus existed, the evidence is simply too overwhelming. To do so means destroying everything we know about ancient history, because those events are based on even less evidence.

/Have a good weekend.

Kingarthurhk
07-27-2012, 19:32
Give me one SHRED of evidence for the existence of Abraham Lincoln using sources outside of the 19th century. Can't use anything that uses sources from the 19th century either. Would you be able to do that? Yea, but anything you had would be distant from the original people/events and as a result would lack many details and have a high chance of including inaccuracies, either intentional or accidental.


You must be new here. I have, at least twice in these forums. Even enough to satisfy Animal Mother that a man named Jesus walked the earth. He wouldn't ascribe to the Divinity of Jesus Christ; but accepts through historical evidence by historicans of the day that Jesus did exist.

High-Gear
07-27-2012, 20:37
I kinda just pass through these forms every once and awhile and stumbled onto this question and figured I'd answer it.



Give me one SHRED of evidence for the existence of Abraham Lincoln using sources outside of the 19th century. Can't use anything that uses sources from the 19th century either. Would you be able to do that? Yea, but anything you had would be distant from the original people/events and as a result would lack many details and have a high chance of including inaccuracies, either intentional or accidental.

Why would I omit all of the historical accounts which were contemporary to Lincoln? That makes no sense. The point is, because he was a real person were contemporary accounts of his actions, not produced 100 years later.



You are deliberately cherry-picking what evidence you will accept. The New Testament is simply a collection of the EARLIEST sources that were CLOSEST to the people and events that began to be officially compiled in the mid-late 300's AD.

What did a text have to be in order to get included in the NT? The extremely simplified version is: Be written by an apposite or an acquaintance of an apposite. Be written before 100 AD. Be based on firsthand eyewitness testimony.

By those very standards all the best sources were included and all the later derivative texts and forgeries were excluded. All the church did was standardize what was already being used for scripture in most churches. By looking to sources outside the NT you are asking for the less accurate secondary sources. Not that those sources don't have some good bits of information in them.

You want some sources from outside the NT? Would 10 do the job?

Authors outside the NT that mention Jesus before the compilation of the New Testament:

Greek historian Thallus. ~50-75 AD
Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews) ~93AD-
Letter from Pliny the Younger to Trajan ~110 AD
Roman historian Tacitus ~115-120 AD
Suetonius (Lives of the Caesars) ~125 AD
Lucian ~mid-2nd century
Galen (De pulsuum differentiis) ~150AD
Celsus (True Discourse) ~170 AD
Mara Bar Serapion ~pre-200?
Talmudic References, written after 300 AD, but some references are believed to go back to eyewitnesses)

Note how almost all of these are from after 100AD and none claim to have firsthand eyewitness testimony, thus they were excluded.


You are correct these are not contemporary accounts of a man named Jesus. IIRC all have found to either be fakes (inserted by the church at later dates) or were written hundreds of years after the Gosphels had been circulated.

I agree there could have been a guy or several guys named Jesus, but no historical record of the biblical Jesus' life and death. There even could have been a guy named jesus who claimed to be the messiah, but there is no record of a guy who did the thhings the bible claims Jesus did.

Remember that these are just sources outside the NT. Also note that there are only 10 sources TOTAL that mention Caesar, a contemporary of Jesus, within 150 years after his death, two of which are NT documents. (Luke and John) If you deny the existence of Jesus you're going to have an awkward time not also denying the existence of Caesar and almost every ancient historical figure.

This is not true. We have numerous records of Tiberius Ceaser, his military orders, and even his own writings. Not to mention coins with his image and name minted at the time he lived.

Virtually no serious historian denies that Jesus existed, the evidence is simply too overwhelming. To do so means destroying everything we know about ancient history, because those events are based on even less evidence.

/Have a good weekend.

The simple matter of fact is there is no contemporary account of the biblical Jesus ever existing.

Syclone538
07-27-2012, 21:28
...
What did a text have to be in order to get included in the NT? The extremely simplified version is: ... Be written before 100 AD. Be based on firsthand eyewitness testimony.
...

I was under the impression that this was not the case.

Animal Mother
07-27-2012, 21:28
Give me one SHRED of evidence for the existence of Abraham Lincoln using sources outside of the 19th century. Can't use anything that uses sources from the 19th century either. Would you be able to do that? Yea, but anything you had would be distant from the original people/events and as a result would lack many details and have a high chance of including inaccuracies, either intentional or accidental. Your parallel is incorrect. A better analogy would be to produce evidence for Lincoln's life and actions using only works produced after the mid-1920s with little or no historical provenance.
You are deliberately cherry-picking what evidence you will accept. The New Testament is simply a collection of the EARLIEST sources that were CLOSEST to the people and events that began to be officially compiled in the mid-late 300's AD.

What did a text have to be in order to get included in the NT? The extremely simplified version is: Be written by an apposite or an acquaintance of an apposite. Be written before 100 AD. Be based on firsthand eyewitness testimony. Many of the books included in the NT fail on all of these counts.
By those very standards all the best sources were included and all the later derivative texts and forgeries were excluded. What about 2 Peter or Revelation?
All the church did was standardize what was already being used for scripture in most churches. By looking to sources outside the NT you are asking for the less accurate secondary sources. Not that those sources don't have some good bits of information in them. Is the purpose of the NT to provide an accurate, objective history or to serve as a source of inspiration and guidance for believers in Christ's divinity?
Greek historian Thallus. ~50-75 AD This would be the Thallus that we have through George Syncellus' quotation of a lost work by Sextus Julius Africanus which was itself apparently an apologetic more than an academic history?
Also note that there are only 10 sources TOTAL that mention Caesar, a contemporary of Jesus, within 150 years after his death, two of which are NT documents. (Luke and John) If you deny the existence of Jesus you're going to have an awkward time not also denying the existence of Caesar and almost every ancient historical figure. Presumably you're talking about Augustus here and not Julius Caesar. What are these sources you acknowledge? Do they include Suetonius, who's surviving work alone gives us far more information about Augustus and his acts than we have about Jesus even if the NT works are included.

steveksux
07-28-2012, 06:22
Pain is not a problem. Pain is necessary for survival. Pain tells you when you're sick, injured. Pain is an indicator you need to do some corrective action, and correcting that allows you to survive long enough to procreate. Or marry another man and not procreate.

Never said pain is 100% effective. :tongueout: It just offers the chance to keep the species alive.

Randy

Kingarthurhk
07-28-2012, 06:49
Pain is not a problem. Pain is necessary for survival. Pain tells you when you're sick, injured. Pain is an indicator you need to do some corrective action, and correcting that allows you to survive long enough to procreate. Or marry another man and not procreate.

Never said pain is 100% effective. :tongueout: It just offers the chance to keep the species alive.

Randy


So, what exactly can a person do, to take corrective action when they are terminally ill and in pain?

High-Gear
07-28-2012, 07:24
So, what exactly can a person do, to take corrective action when they are terminally ill and in pain?

Prayer is not the answer. In this study it actually hurt people.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all


The answer is pain medication provided by science.

Syclone538
07-28-2012, 07:44
So, what exactly can a person do, to take corrective action when they are terminally ill and in pain?

So you think something should only hurt if it's possible to live through it?

steveksux
07-28-2012, 07:53
So, what exactly can a person do, to take corrective action when they are terminally ill and in pain?You miss the point. Pain is still letting you know something is wrong and needs fixing even in that case. The problem is some things cannot be fixed with current medical technology.

Eliminating pain in general for your entire life because of that one scenario where it isn't useful anymore is short sighted and would result in extinction for everyone.

But that's a great time to try pain meds.

Randy

Kingarthurhk
07-28-2012, 07:54
Prayer is not the answer. In this study it actually hurt people.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all


The answer is pain medication provided by science.

What's wrong with both used correctly?

Kingarthurhk
07-28-2012, 07:55
You miss the point. Pain is still letting you know something is wrong and needs fixing even in that case. The problem is some things cannot be fixed with current medical technology.

Eliminating pain in general for your entire life because of that one scenario where it isn't useful anymore is short sighted and would result in extinction for everyone.

But that's a great time to try pain meds.

Randy

But, is pain necessary? Couldn't there be another mechanism in place to tell you something is wrong?

steveksux
07-28-2012, 07:55
What's wrong with both used correctly?Not a thing wrong, if it gives people comfort, I'm all for it.

Randy

steveksux
07-28-2012, 07:57
But, is pain necessary? Couldn't there be another mechanism in place to tell you something is wrong?Pleasure? But that might result in people seeking out injuries then.. :tongueout:

What else did you have in mind? Why didn't God provide us with a better mechanism for that? :tongueout:

Randy

Kingarthurhk
07-28-2012, 08:00
So you think something should only hurt if it's possible to live through it?

My point is, why should it then hurt at all?

Kingarthurhk
07-28-2012, 08:02
Pleasure? But that might result in people seeking out injuries then.. :tongueout:

What else did you have in mind? Why didn't God provide us with a better mechanism for that? :tongueout:

Randy

I was thinking very much like a computer, it can diagnose its issue and it doesn't feel pain.

Also, I didn't know you started believing in God?

My point is that is somehow evolution is a progression to the more complex then it would only be logical that pain would disipate and a lot like aligator have remarkable healing abilities to regenerate...

High-Gear
07-28-2012, 08:26
Not a thing wrong, if it gives people comfort, I'm all for it.

Randy

According to the study, people did signifigantly worse when they were made aware people were praying for them. The hypothesis is the knowledge of organized prayer made the person think their condition was far worse than it was.

steveksux
07-28-2012, 08:28
I was thinking very much like a computer, it can diagnose its issue and it doesn't feel pain.It needs to be something that won't be ignored, like people get a feeling something is wrong (situationally), but ignore it, only to be robbed a few moments later. Their subconscious diagnosed a problem, but without a firm warning mechanism that can't be ignored, like pain, its easy to rationalize it away as a false alarm.


Also, I didn't know you started believing in God?I don't, just teasing you on that point.... :supergrin:

My point is that is somehow evolution is a progression to the more complex then it would only be logical that pain would disipate and a lot like aligator have remarkable healing abilities to regenerate...Evolution doesn't necessarily progress to the more complex though, sometimes simpler is better for survival, and evolution favors survival, not complexity. Some forms of complexity, as in human brainpower, have proven to be beneficial enough to survival to offset the extra energy and training time required to put the brainpower to good use.

And evolution is not finished with us, we are certainly still evolving, and there's no guarantee we won't eventually end up with those sorts of abilities. Eyes evolved independently a number of times in the animal kingdom, as long as alligators prove it is possible, there's nothing stopping us from potentially ending up with the same ability at some point.

Having said that, with advances in medical science keeping people alive longer, we may be affecting our own evolution by not weeding out as many less than optimal traits compared to our ancient ancestors.

Randy

High-Gear
07-28-2012, 08:30
I was thinking very much like a computer, it can diagnose its issue and it doesn't feel pain.

Also, I didn't know you started believing in God?

My point is that is somehow evolution is a progression to the more complex then it would only be logical that pain would disipate and a lot like aligator have remarkable healing abilities to regenerate...

We can!

What remarkable healing abilities science has provided.
http://www.ted.com/talks/anthony_atala_growing_organs_engineering_tissue.html


Why can't god heal an amputee? Even a really devout christian who prays really hard for it?

steveksux
07-28-2012, 08:35
According to the study, people did signifigantly worse when they were made aware people were praying for them. The hypothesis is the knowledge of organized prayer made the person think their condition was far worse than it was.I think I've read of other studies that show people who pray for themselves did better, or felt better.

I would suggest that's a placebo effect, but placebos have been proven to be effective as well... :dunno: I'm sure they would suggest that whomever they prayed to was answering their prayers.

Randy

Japle
07-28-2012, 09:40
Posted by Kingarthurhk:
But, is pain necessary? Couldn't there be another mechanism in place to tell you something is wrong?
My point is, why should it then hurt at all?
And we’re back to the OP. If a benevolent god created the world, why did he include pain and suffering? Because a talking serpent conned a naïve woman? Was the creator so incompetent that he didn’t see that coming? Is he punishing babies every night and day for the actions of two beings thousands of years ago?

Kingarthurhk
07-28-2012, 11:39
And we’re back to the OP. If a benevolent god created the world, why did he include pain and suffering? Because a talking serpent conned a naïve woman? Was the creator so incompetent that he didn’t see that coming? Is he punishing babies every night and day for the actions of two beings thousands of years ago?

Or you are left with a concept that somehow nothing created inorganic chaos, chaos beget order, the inorganic beget the organic, and that organic through eons upon eons became ordered, that order became life, that life changed to have lower species that never really changed that much to a simeon population that did, but left the rest behind.

Now, that we are done with all those miraculous and impropbablle and pretty impossible series events, here you are.

High-Gear
07-28-2012, 15:30
Or you are left with a concept that somehow nothing created inorganic chaos, chaos beget order, the inorganic beget the organic, and that organic through eons upon eons became ordered, that order became life, that life changed to have lower species that never really changed that much to a simeon population that did, but left the rest behind.

Now, that we are done with all those miraculous and impropbablle and pretty impossible series events, here you are.

You continue to show how little you understand about Evolution by Natural Selection.

Animal Mother
07-28-2012, 15:31
Or you are left with a concept that somehow nothing created inorganic chaos, chaos beget order, the inorganic beget the organic, and that organic through eons upon eons became ordered, that order became life, that life changed to have lower species that never really changed that much to a simeon population that did, but left the rest behind. Excellent summation of the way that creationists often misrepresent the development of the universe and evolution of life on Earth. Well done. You don't strengthen your position by falsely representing the position you oppose. If you want to show errors in the scientific understanding of the development of the universe, the first step you should take is understanding the actual evidence which exists and the conclusions based on that evidence, rather than simply creating a strawman to allow you to try and dismiss conclusions that upset your beliefs.

Japle
07-28-2012, 17:50
Originally Posted by Japle:
And we’re back to the OP. If a benevolent god created the world, why did he include pain and suffering? Because a talking serpent conned a naïve woman? Was the creator so incompetent that he didn’t see that coming? Is he punishing babies every night and day for the actions of two beings thousands of years ago?
Response by Kingarthurhk:
Or you are left with a concept that somehow nothing created inorganic chaos, chaos beget order, the inorganic beget the organic, and that organic through eons upon eons became ordered, that order became life, that life changed to have lower species that never really changed that much to a simeon population that did, but left the rest behind.

Now, that we are done with all those miraculous and impropbablle and pretty impossible series events, here you are.
Changing the subject won’t answer the questions. I understand why you’ve tried to change the subject. You don’t have any answers to the questions, so you answer a question that wasn’t asked. It’s a predictable evasion and I predict you’ll do it again, soon

Kingarthurhk
07-28-2012, 18:00
Excellent summation of the way that creationists often misrepresent the development of the universe and evolution of life on Earth. Well done. You don't strengthen your position by falsely representing the position you oppose. If you want to show errors in the scientific understanding of the development of the universe, the first step you should take is understanding the actual evidence which exists and the conclusions based on that evidence, rather than simply creating a strawman to allow you to try and dismiss conclusions that upset your beliefs.

Interesting. Where preytell did I go wrong? I don't see you counter arguing the points made.

The gist of the matter is that if evolution is a progressive experience than pain should have been left behind for a more "evolved" mechanism.

scccdoc
07-30-2012, 07:04
Thanks for admitting it.

I made an attempt to put this to rest (note the lol)
...........I see a spirit of humility or common courtesy does not exist.

Animal Mother
07-30-2012, 07:33
Interesting. Where preytell did I go wrong? You propose that the universe now is more ordered than the primordial universe. That somehow organic and life are two different things. That order is apparently some kind of biological function. That evolution should by an advancement along some arbitrary scale you apparently believe exists, rather than an adaptation to the inhabited environment. Assuming you mean simian, when you wrote simeon, that the monkeys and apes are somehow different from other animal life.
I don't see you counter arguing the points made. I don't see the need to do it, again. At this point, when you present an utterly incorrect position based on absolutely no evidence, despite having your errors pointed out multiple times in the past, just telling you you're wrong is entirely sufficient.
The gist of the matter is that if evolution is a progressive experience than pain should have been left behind for a more "evolved" mechanism.Pain has a very clear evolutionary purpose. That you simply declare it should not be so is absurd. Think of the purposes that pain serves in both protecting and educating not just humans but all life, why would that be selected against? Look at what happens to people afflicted with CIPA and other HSAN conditions for the consequences of not being able to feel physical pain.

High-Gear
07-30-2012, 10:06
I made an attempt to put this to rest (note the lol)
...........I see a spirit of humility or common courtesy does not exist.

I've said it now several times, I have had no intent of offending you....ever! Stop taking everything I write as offensive. It is getting old. You act like a woman who is told a dress makes her look nice, with a response of, "So I normally look bad?".

Let it go. We are all adults. Put your feelers away and join in the conversation without the preconceived notion that you are being persecuted. We can disagree and it not be an insult. Heck Snowbird tells me I am a jihadist supporter, a communist, a Nazi, and a minion of Satan at least weekly and I don't go on and on about it. I laugh and retort, that is how this game works.


Now if we can get past this, I'd enjoy your joining in the conversation. For the record...

I do not dislike you. I am not intentionally trying to offend you. I may disagree, but that is ok as I respect your right to be wrong (oops, I mean have a difference of opinion) :supergrin:

Friends?

scccdoc
07-30-2012, 10:52
I've said it now several times, I have had no intent of offending you....ever! Stop taking everything I write as offensive. It is getting old. You act like a woman who is told a dress makes her look nice, with a response of, "So I normally look bad?".

Let it go. We are all adults. Put your feelers away and join in the conversation without the preconceived notion that you are being persecuted. We can disagree and it not be an insult. Heck Snowbird tells me I am a jihadist supporter, a communist, a Nazi, and a minion of Satan at least weekly and I don't go on and on about it. I laugh and retort, that is how this game works.


Now if we can get past this, I'd enjoy your joining in the conversation. For the record...

I do not dislike you. I am not intentionally trying to offend you. I may disagree, but that is ok as I respect your right to be wrong (oops, I mean have a difference of opinion) :supergrin:

Friends?

I'll try if you try. The "lol" was an invitation to peace, not judgement.We should all be able to laugh at ourselves....................peace

Kingarthurhk
07-31-2012, 17:10
You propose that the universe now is more ordered than the primordial universe. That somehow organic and life are two different things. That order is apparently some kind of biological function. That evolution should by an advancement along some arbitrary scale you apparently believe exists, rather than an adaptation to the inhabited environment. Assuming you mean simian, when you wrote simeon, that the monkeys and apes are somehow different from other animal life.

It seems ordered to me. Everything has a function, and everything serves something else. There are two consistant elements to me in the Universe: Service and Love. Even in this decripit state of affairs, everything serves something. Further, from the Christian perspective service is the highest goal.

All life is different than other life. We are are told that simian life diverged and somehow we can out of the mix. If that was the case we should see more human characteristics from those left behind by now. We don't. They are an interesting parallel as they have arms and legs like we do, and a a cranium that is similar, and that is where the similarities end. We were made in the image of God, but we are nothing like God.


I don't see the need to do it, again. At this point, when you present an utterly incorrect position based on absolutely no evidence, despite having your errors pointed out multiple times in the past, just telling you you're wrong is entirely sufficient.

There is no evidence for the absurd position of evolution, rather it contradicts itself with alarming regularity.


Pain has a very clear evolutionary purpose. That you simply declare it should not be so is absurd. Think of the purposes that pain serves in both protecting and educating not just humans but all life, why would that be selected against? Look at what happens to people afflicted with CIPA and other HSAN conditions for the consequences of not being able to feel physical pain.

Pain, is a result of a fallen world. There is no need for pain. It doesn't need to exist. Just like disease and death serve no purpose.

Unrelenting pain without purpose steals it, and makes it a miserable voyage. Have you ever wondered why Christ healed first and preached second?

High-Gear
07-31-2012, 17:40
It seems ordered to me. Everything has a function, and everything serves something else. There are two consistant elements to me in the Universe: Service and Love. Even in this decripit state of affairs, everything serves something. Further, from the Christian perspective service is the highest goal.

Yes things evolve to fit into a niche in their environment quite well. Have you ever pondered why there are no bears in Africa? On every other continent bears are either super herbivores, or super carnivores. In Africa both of these roles were already filled by badder herbivores and badder carnivores therefore there was no niche for bears to fill. Just because things appear orderly, does not mean they were created that way. If that were the case, the grand majority of all life form which ever lived wouldn't be extinct.

All life is different than other life. We are are told that simian life diverged and somehow we can out of the mix. If that was the case we should see more human characteristics from those left behind by now. We don't. They are an interesting parallel as they have arms and legs like we do, and a a cranium that is similar, and that is where the similarities end. We were made in the image of God, but we are nothing like God.

Chimps display numerous humanistic traits, just watch them at the zoo sometime! They can learn language (sign), and think! They communicate by building complex sentances! Try researching a topic and not just listening to your preacher.

This will really bake your noodle. We have decoded the Neanderthal Genome, and guess what? You are about 3% Neanderthal! Some people in The Pacific islands are 3% Neanderthal, and 5% Denisovan Man! We interbred with them and absorbed them as a species. Imagine that, we aren 't fully homosapien. Apparently god created us as a hybrid being?
Svante Pääbo: DNA clues to our inner neanderthal - YouTube


There is no evidence for the absurd position of evolution, rather it contradicts itself with alarming regularity.

Wrong! It is one of the most tested and proven theories in science. It is obervable, testable, and predictable! Just because you and your cult leaders say it ain't so, does not change reality!



Pain, is a result of a fallen world. There is no need for pain. I doesn't need to exist. Just like disease and death serve no purpose.

Unrelenting pain without purpose steals it, and makes it a miserable voyage. Have you ever wondered why Christ healed first and preached second?

Blah, blah, blah says the guy with no understanding of science.

Kingarthurhk
07-31-2012, 18:08
Yes things evolve to fit into a niche in their environment quite well. Have you ever pondered why there are no bears in Africa? On every other continent bears are either super herbivores, or super carnivores. In Africa both of these roles were already filled by badder herbivores and badder carnivores therefore there was no niche for bears to fill. Just because things appear orderly, does not mean they were created that way. If that were the case, the grand majority of all life form which ever lived wouldn't be extinct.

The marks of a fallen world. Nature never used to be the way it is now. But, it will return to the way it was intended:

Isaiah 11:6-9, "The wolf will live with the lamb, <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17891W))'></sup>
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-17891a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-17891a)]</sup> together;
and a little child will lead them.
<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox. <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17892X))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>The infant <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17893Y))'></sup> will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17893Z))'></sup> nest.
<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>They will neither harm nor destroy <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17894AA))'></sup>
on all my holy mountain, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17894AB))'></sup>
for the earth <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17894AC))'></sup> will be filled with the knowledge <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17894AD))'></sup> of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea."

I prefer that world.



Chimps display numerous humanistic traits, just watch them at the zoo sometime! They can learn language (sign), and think! They communicate by building complex sentances! Try researching a topic and not just listening to your preacher.

I never denied their similarity, rather I drewa an analogy based on up that same said similarity.


This will really bake your noodle. We have decoded the Neanderthal Genome, and guess what? You are about 3% Neanderthal! We interbred with them and absorbed them as a species. Imagine that, we aren 't fully homosapien.
Svante Pääbo: DNA clues to our inner neanderthal - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU0ei9ApmsY&feature=youtube_gdata_player)


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3202_hoax.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/feb/19/science.sciencenews



Wrong! It is one of the most tested and proven theories in science. It is obervable, testable, and predictable! Just because you and your cult leaders say it ain't so, does not change reality!

How has it been observed, tested, and repeated? I have shown you how your vaunted theories have been exposed as nothing more than hoaxes played unpon the gulible.



Blah, blah, blah says the guy with no understanding of science.

It doesn't match your world view therefore it is merely "Blah, blah?"

Animal Mother
07-31-2012, 18:18
It seems ordered to me. It is ordered, but it isn't as ordered as the initial state of evenly distributed quark-gluon plasma.
Everything has a function, and everything serves something else. There are two consistant elements to me in the Universe: Service and Love. Even in this decripit state of affairs, everything serves something. Further, from the Christian perspective service is the highest goal. This isn't even a scientific position, and thus has no relation to the increasing entropy in the universe.
All life is different than other life. No, it isn't. Check the basic genetic building blocks, they're all the same from bacteria to blue whales.
We are are told that simian life diverged and somehow we can out of the mix. If that was the case we should see more human characteristics from those left behind by now. Why should we see such a thing?
We don't. They are an interesting parallel as they have arms and legs like we do, and a a cranium that is similar, and that is where the similarities end. No, it isn't. Compare the chimpanzee genome to the human genome.
We were made in the image of God, but we are nothing like God. Again, not a scientific position.
There is no evidence for the absurd position of evolution, rather it contradicts itself with alarming regularity. There is overwhelming evidence for evolution, evidence which has been provided to you time and time again. Nor are there any contradictions.
Pain, is a result of a fallen world. There is no need for pain. It doesn't need to exist. Just like disease and death serve no purpose.As I wrote in my previous response, check the experiences of those unable to perceive pain before saying it serves no purpose.
Unrelenting pain without purpose steals it, and makes it a miserable voyage. Have you ever wondered why Christ healed first and preached second? The same reason Ponzi schemes pay out in the beginning?

High-Gear
07-31-2012, 18:22
The marks of a fallen world. Nature never used to be the way it is now. But, it will return to the way it was intended:

Isaiah 11:6-9, "The wolf will live with the lamb, <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17891W))'></sup>
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-17891a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-17891a)]</sup> together;
and a little child will lead them.
<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox. <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17892X))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>The infant <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17893Y))'></sup> will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17893Z))'></sup> nest.
<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>They will neither harm nor destroy <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17894AA))'></sup>
on all my holy mountain, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17894AB))'></sup>
for the earth <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17894AC))'></sup> will be filled with the knowledge <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-17894AD))'></sup> of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea."

I prefer that world.



Just because you prefer it does not make it real.



I never denied their similarity, rather I drewa an analogy based on up that same said similarity.


No you said the similarity ended with their arms and legs, and a similar scull. Lest we forget we share 96% of our DNA with them.



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3202_hoax.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/feb/19/science.sciencenews


you bring up a 100 year old hoax, which has been known about and discounted for 50! Wow! Your other evidence against evolution is a guy who falsified dates and was ousted, and his data thrown out with him? I guess we have to throw the baby out with the bath water and get rid of religion when a priest does something wrong?


How has it been observed, tested, and repeated? I have shown you how your vaunted theories have been exposed as nothing more than hoaxes played unpon the gulible.

Not true! Try researching the Galapagos Finches, then report back. I know you will say that is adaptation. What do you think evolution is? Small adaptations which over a long enough period add up to signifigant changes.

Here is a more recent example.
http://www.nsf.gov/news/frontiers_archive/11-96/11specie.jsp



It doesn't match your world view therefore it is merely "Blah, blah?"

No, you make no sense, that is why it is blah, blah!

Animal Mother
07-31-2012, 18:23
The marks of a fallen world. Nature never used to be the way it is now. But, it will return to the way it was intended: Your evidence? Or is this another kangaroos in the middle east thing?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3202_hoax.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/feb/19/science.sciencenews Who discovered these frauds? Scientists using the methods of scientific inquiry or priests depending on divine revelation?
How has it been observed, tested, and repeated? In the lab and in the wild.
I have shown you how your vaunted theories have been exposed as nothing more than hoaxes played unpon the gulible. You've brought up, yet again, a couple of fraudulent events in the long history of science. You've done nothing to disprove or "expose" the whole of evolutionary science and biology.
It doesn't match your world view therefore it is merely "Blah, blah?" I think it's more likely you have no interest in actually understanding the science and thus your ill informed ramblings are just "blah, blah, blah".

Kingarthurhk
07-31-2012, 18:28
It is ordered, but it isn't as ordered as the initial state of evenly distributed quark-gluon plasma.

I said ordered, not perfect. The earth is far from perfect anymore. It once way. It will be again.


This isn't even a scientific position, and thus has no relation to the increasing entropy in the universe.
No, it isn't. Check the basic genetic building blocks, they're all the same from bacteria to blue whales.
Why should we see such a thing?

Try life without the sun. Try to breathe and sustain life without plants. Just a minor example how everything serves something else.


No, it isn't. Compare the chimpanzee genome to the human genome.

Similar doesn't mean the same.

For instance, these, despite the girl's belief are not kittens:

http://blogs.roanoke.com/thehappywag/files/2009/11/skunk-kittens.jpg



Again, not a scientific position.
There is overwhelming evidence for evolution, evidence which has been provided to you time and time again. Nor are there any contradictions.

Sure there are. There have been plenty of hoaxes, and in addition to that, the fossil record does not flow in an orderly pattern from simple to complex, it is all jumbled up.


As I wrote in my previous response, check the experiences of those unable to perceive pain before saying it serves no purpose.
The same reason Ponzi schemes pay out in the beginning?

I have a mother-in-law with severe diabetis that does not feel pain. It makes the breaks and things she gets more chipper for her. They are handled medically, and she is in the process of healing a broken ankle.

So, there are some upshots to not having pain.

High-Gear
07-31-2012, 18:38
Similar doesn't mean the same.

No one said same, if they were the same they would be humans. Do you think before you type?

...and in addition to that, the fossil record does not flow in an orderly pattern from simple to complex, it is all jumbled up.


Yes because there have been many, many evolutionary dead ends.

Animal Mother
07-31-2012, 18:42
I said ordered, not perfect. Actually you asserted that cosmology and evolution claim, "somehow nothing created inorganic chaos, chaos beget order". This is untrue, which is the point I was making.
The earth is far from perfect anymore. It once way. It will be again. When exactly was the Earth ever perfect?
Try life without the sun. Try to breathe and sustain life without plants. Just a minor example how everything serves something else. Not a minor example of your claim at all. Just a couple examples of the interconnected nature of the Universe, as a result of its origin in an initial singularity. You also ignored the rest of my response, including most of the substance.
Similar doesn't mean the same.Where did I claim differently? Are we really going back to where you invent positions for others rather than addressing what they actually say?
Sure there are. There have been plenty of hoaxes, Hoaxes which were identified and exposed by scientists based on their failure to fit into the overall evolutionary patternl.
and in addition to that, the fossil record does not flow in an orderly pattern from simple to complex, it is all jumbled up. I'm not sure what you're claiming here, could you share some evidence for your position? A million year old homo sapien skeleton would do nicely.
I have a mother-in-law with severe diabetis that does not feel pain. It makes the breaks and things she gets more chipper for her. They are handled medically, and she is in the process of healing a broken ankle.

So, there are some upshots to not having pain. I don't know what chipper means in this context, but as the fact that your mother in law is recovering from a broken ankle demonstrates, being able to perceive pain and react to it before extensive damage is done does have a distinct benefit.

Kingarthurhk
08-01-2012, 03:37
Actually you asserted that cosmology and evolution claim, "somehow nothing created inorganic chaos, chaos beget order". This is untrue, which is the point I was making.

Of course it is untrue. It is impossible for something like that to happen. Obviously, there is an intelligent design behind it all.


When exactly was the Earth ever perfect?

When it was first created.


Not a minor example of your claim at all. Just a couple examples of the interconnected nature of the Universe, as a result of its origin in an initial singularity.

Interconnected nature by design. Even in this fallen state of affairs everything serves something to continue life, and life was changed and adapted to exist in a hostile sinful environment. You might know this as micro evolution.



I see no other explanation for the origin of the Universe. Either it was your singularity explosion of disharmony and chaos eventually making order and the ability to sustain life that has no origin. Or it my explanation of the Universe of a God that made all things and ordered them, that life might continue.

[quote]
Hoaxes which were identified and exposed by scientists based on their failure to fit into the overall evolutionary patternl.

Hoaxes presented as unrefutable, factual science. How many times must we accept lie after life after lie waiting for the lastest exposure? These hoaxes including Neandrathal man have been put forward as fact for decades when in fact they were lies. Global warming has been revealed to be hoax perpetrated for politcal gain and greed. Yet, for how long was that gold standard, and undeniable scientific evidence?


I'm not sure what you're claiming here, could you share some evidence for your position? A million year old homo sapien skeleton would do nicely.

No, I will leave those type of hoaxes to the professional "scientists".


I don't know what chipper means in this context, but as the fact that your mother in law is recovering from a broken ankle demonstrates, being able to perceive pain and react to it before extensive damage is done does have a distinct benefit.

No, she did not perceive the pain. It simply broke. It is a little hard to walk on a broken ankle. Therefore, she decided she needed to have it repaired. Her medical condition does not allow her to perceive pain the same way that many of us do.

Animal Mother
08-01-2012, 04:37
Of course it is untrue. It is impossible for something like that to happen. And science doesn't claim that is what happens, which is what I said in my original response to your post.
Obviously, there is an intelligent design behind it all. I await your evidence for this.
When it was first created. It wasn't created, it formed through natural actions.
Interconnected nature by design. Again, I'll ask you to produce evidence of this design.
Even in this fallen state of affairs everything serves something to continue life, and life was changed and adapted to exist in a hostile sinful environment. You might know this as micro evolution. I'll ask the same question I always do when this particular silliness is brought up. How do you differentiate between micro and macro evolution and what biological process allows for the first but prevents the second?
I see no other explanation for the origin of the Universe. Either it was your singularity explosion of disharmony and chaos eventually making order and the ability to sustain life that has no origin. Once again you're completely misrepresenting the nature of the Lambda-CDM model, despite the fact that I just explained your error. It is beginning to seem less like ignorance and more like intentional misrepresentation at this point.
Or it my explanation of the Universe of a God that made all things and ordered them, that life might continue. If we are going to allow for the possibility of a god being involved, there are literally tens of thousands of versions of the creation of the universe. There are also other variations which don't require the intervention of a deity, such as the solid state model, which you have also failed to consider.
Hoaxes presented as unrefutable, factual science. No, they weren't. Science is never presented as unrefutable. The reality that new information might change our understanding is always accepted as part of conclusions reached through science. How many times have you been told that science neither promises nor offers absolute certainty? As for Piltdown man, the "discovery" was questioned from the beginning.
How many times must we accept lie after life after lie waiting for the lastest exposure? These hoaxes including Neandrathal man have been put forward as fact for decades when in fact they were lies. How are Neanderthals a hoax?
Global warming has been revealed to be hoax perpetrated for politcal gain and greed. No, it hasn't. In point of fact, all studies and measurements have verified the reality of global climate change.
Yet, for how long was that gold standard, and undeniable scientific evidence? It has always been denied by some, but they don't have any evidence to support their denials. They're oddly similar to creationists in that way.
No, I will leave those type of hoaxes to the professional "scientists". Once again, you fail to produce evidence to support your claims. Shocking. We'll add it to those migratory koalas.
No, she did not perceive the pain. It simply broke. It is a little hard to walk on a broken ankle. Therefore, she decided she needed to have it repaired. Her medical condition does not allow her to perceive pain the same way that many of us do. I understand that, and if she had the ability to feel pain she might have taken steps to prevent the break as a response to pain. More importantly from an evolutionary standpoint, what is the likelihood she would have survived to reproduce if she hadn't been able to perceive pain as an infant or child?