Legalizing guns on college campuses won’t lead to safety [Archive] - Glock Talk

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HerrGlock
07-12-2012, 11:44
http://www.usforacle.com/opinion/legalizing-guns-on-college-campuses-won-t-lead-to-safety-1.2747369#.T_8MUW8m9Ng

tomcon
07-12-2012, 12:21
Let see, 54% of assaults on campuses are with firearms, yes sir, keeping the students unarmed works out just fine................... For the criminals.

BulldawgGlock
07-12-2012, 15:05
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.

HerrGlock
07-12-2012, 15:25
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.

Wrong way to look at a right.

Where has it been proven that having concealed firearms on campus has ever been a problem? You've got a few decades of data to look to find it.

If you cannot prove actual harm then the default should always be leaning towards civil liberties.

Where has there ever been harm allowing this?

(hint: If you even consider answering anything resembling no college allows firearms on campus that will prove to all you have not looked into this topic at all)

whoflungdo
07-12-2012, 15:29
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.


Not only is it not far fetched... If you do a little research, you'll find out that the opposite of what you believe has actually happened...

janice6
07-12-2012, 15:30
So the conclusion is that non-gun student paranoia is the problem with guns on campus.

What an argument.

PEC-Memphis
07-12-2012, 16:03
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.

Where has it been proven that having legally concealed firearms on campus has ever been a problem? You've got a few decades of data to look to find it.


Not only is it not far fetched... If you do a little research, you'll find out that the opposite of what you believe has actually happened...

Bingo -

Appalachian School of Law

University Of Texas

What if Liviu Librescu had a gun?

oldman11
07-12-2012, 16:07
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.
Well, they have you brainwashed.

BulldawgGlock
07-12-2012, 17:01
As a trained and POST certified peace officer in state of Georgia, who also happens to live in a town with 30,000 college students, I stand by my initial statement.

BulldawgGlock
07-12-2012, 17:06
Well, they have you brainwashed.
Tell me more about this "they".

HerrGlock
07-12-2012, 17:59
As a trained and POST certified peace officer in state of Georgia, who also happens to live in a town with 30,000 college students, I stand by my initial statement.

Don't care how you feel about it, what overwhelming evidence do you have in the history of students carrying concealed legally that shows the right should be restricted?

It's a right. You must show overwhelming evidence as to why it should be ... let's use the word infringed.

collim1
07-12-2012, 18:24
In my state carrying on a state college campus was legal, but against school policy. I got my bachelors degree with a Beretta 92fs and a spare mag in my backpack.

I knew using it would get me kicked out of school, but legally I was free of wrongdoing.

If an active shooter came in the school I was not worried about violating school policy.

I kept my backpack in my grasp at all times.

cowboy1964
07-12-2012, 18:33
I bet the 32 killed at Virginia Tech would disagree. Just for starters.

zbusdriver
07-12-2012, 20:09
If you refuse to abide by the socially accepted rules of polite society, the laws of nature become my default, and I am bigger than you.Be careful there, big-boy...there's always someone out there bigger AND crazier than you (not to mention those armed and also trained fighters, bigger does always = winner in a fight). Try not to be overconfident!

PEC-Memphis
07-12-2012, 21:25
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus.

This statement would also include teachers.

What about armed security? What about POST certified LE?

You made a blanket statement.

Of course you are not going to make a rule (that will be followed) to keep those with intent to do harm from carrying a firearm on campus.

The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.


As a trained and POST certified peace officer in state of Georgia, who also happens to live in a town with 30,000 college students, I stand by my initial statement.

The actual evidence is that both students and teachers have effectively used firearms to cease the (further) actions of active shooters on high school and college campuses. If it has happened in several events, it is not far fetched - no matter how you stand by your statements. Even those who have been active shooters who were apprehended because of legal carriers of firearms would disagree with you on your statement, much less those innocents who were saved from further harm.

Can you cite a single case where a student or teacher - legally possessing a firearm - has created further harm when responding to an active shooter on campus?

eccho
07-12-2012, 21:37
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.

Police can take several minutes to get there, and that's all it takes to kill a whole bunch of people.

I'm not saying that a bunch of armed students will be able to form a cohesive strike team to take down an active shooter lickety split, but if somebody in math class hears gun fire I think they would have a much better chance if they had the right to arm themselves.

Here in iowa campus carry is not "illegal", however campus "policy" is strongly against it. You can be suspended or expelled, and that will not look good on a college transcript to get into other schools.

It's worth noting that here, there are no actual security measures whatsoever. There are no guards, no metal detectors, no cameras. We have electronic number locks on the doors that everyone knows the answers to. (because they're all the room number followed by 0#)

I would like to see colleges taken down a peg on this issue because in my mind they take it too far by putting up signs saying no weapons (of any kind) are allowed in their parking lots. I get that property owners have rights, but if people can't bring guns on campus or even leave them in their vehicles, then they cannot utilize their rights on the way to and from class.

A guest visiting the college can carry, because the worst that can happen is they would be asked to leave, but a student can face far more severe penalties (suspension, expulsion, possibly stopping them from getting into other schools) not because it is against the law but because the college has a relationship with the student that allows them to take something valued away.

Also there was an incident at the apalachian school of law where two students, one current and one former police officer, were able to retrieve guns from their vehicles and confront a shooter who then surrendered.

If you want a source on that I'm sure I can find it, I've used that case in several college essays, but don't have it right now at 10:35 at night.

My final argument is to counter the perception propogated by gun control groups such as the brady campaign that we are not mature enough to handle the responsibility by saying we are college students, not highschool students. While there are many drugged out chronically drunk idiots in college, most of us are not living our lives in accordance with the values taught in American Pie movies.

Brucev
07-12-2012, 22:31
Re: OP. For the most part... no. Why? Don't trust college aged students. It's that simple. Just simply do not trust them to act responsibly. Do not consider that they needs to be playing cowboy. Constitutional right? Yes. So what. The institution has every right to set it's own policies... and the students have every obligation to comply with those policies. It's no different than a business, hospital, etc., permitting or not permitting cc/oc on its property/campus.

unit1069
07-12-2012, 23:03
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.

Where were the VA Tech campus police and how did they in any way prevent Cho from murdering 32 fellow students? From all I've read the campus police were still trying to figure out what was happening when those students and Cho were already dead.

As a LEO are you seriously claiming that a delayed response from SWORN officers like that in the above example is preferable to immediate civilian response? Armed civilian response in an immediate fashion that may have saved the lives of most of Cho's victims?

HerrGlock
07-13-2012, 01:33
Re: OP. For the most part... no. Why? Don't trust college aged students. It's that simple. Just simply do not trust them to act responsibly. Do not consider that they needs to be playing cowboy. Constitutional right? Yes. So what. The institution has every right to set it's own policies... and the students have every obligation to comply with those policies. It's no different than a business, hospital, etc., permitting or not permitting cc/oc on its property/campus.

Yes, it's different.

If a school is a private school, zero tax money used for it, then it's exactly like a business outside and should be allowed to permit or not as it sees fit.

If a school takes tax money then it is a public institution and the CCW law should override anything the school passes. This is the way it's gone in CO courts and you see how much trouble CCW has been in University of Colorado, right? All public universities in Utah are overrun by people misusing legal CCW, right?

An unfounded fear is called a phobia. People's rights should never be curtailed due to phobias of others.

NEOH212
07-13-2012, 02:30
Legalizing guns on college campuses won’t lead to safety

Making them illegal on campus hasn't stopped criminals either.

ricklee4570
07-13-2012, 03:00
College campuses that ban firearms (like in Virginia) are easy targets for criminals. Campus Police in most cases are a joke. Just look at the Campus Police Officers in most state colleges in Virginia, thay are way overweight, slow, and usually not even on the Campus! Average reaction time for an emergency call can range from 3 to 23 minutes easily.

For example, why deny a college professor who is trained in firearms, former military and in all respects a law abiding citizen from carrying a firearm that could possibly save the lives of the students when, as in Va. Techs case, a nut comes in and starts shooting? Bad politics all around in my opinion.

Armchair Commando
07-13-2012, 03:12
I think its been proven already that not allowing guns on campus doesn't work out too good for the unarmed students.

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eccho
07-13-2012, 04:42
I would love to see someone actually make the case that no college students can be trusted, while they themselves can. Really.

MeanAction
07-13-2012, 04:59
Bottom line: College students have the right to protect themselves too.

whoflungdo
07-13-2012, 07:35
Bingo -

Appalachian School of Law

University Of Texas

What if Liviu Librescu had a gun?

Don't forget the Pearl High School shooting by Luke Woodham. He was held at gun point by a school official until Police arrived. He was headed back to his vehicle for more ammunition.

professorpinki
07-13-2012, 07:46
Yes, it's different.

If a school is a private school, zero tax money used for it, then it's exactly like a business outside and should be allowed to permit or not as it sees fit.

If a school takes tax money then it is a public institution and the CCW law should override anything the school passes.
In my state, the law says that the individual colleges may decide. It also states that individual business owners may decide on whether or not to allow firearms on their property. And, lastly, it states that people may not carry on high school grounds and the normal areas, like courtrooms. In this case, which CCW law takes precedence? The idea of places of education not allowing CCW, or the idea of institutions being able to choose for themselves?

I bet the 32 killed at Virginia Tech would disagree. Just for starters.
And I bet a number of their friends would disagree with that statement. And, I'd be willing to bet that a number of them also would blame the fact that Cho misused a system to purchase firearms, and try to push for his loopholes to be closed.

Don't care how you feel about it, what overwhelming evidence do you have in the history of students carrying concealed legally that shows the right should be restricted?

It's a right. You must show overwhelming evidence as to why it should be ... let's use the word infringed.
All other rights are restricted, too, and some would argue that many are restricted without real reason. Take, for example, obscenity laws.


I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.
So too is the notion that anyone would have to have a firearm in any foreseeable situation outside of the military. But, real life happens, and in that (we'll call it) one tenth of a percent of chance, well, I've found myself before, just not on a campus. And, it's really an inconvenience for me to have to ask a townie to store my weapons, instead of just keeping them on my person, where I can come and go with them to places where I could have already carried as I pleased.

The only issue, aside from school policies, for me was that I wore a uniform in college... but the shirts don't really fit there anyway (they're like maternity shirts) and by the time I was a senior I didn't care enough to wear shirt stays all the time.

HerrGlock
07-13-2012, 08:36
In my state, the law says that the individual colleges may decide. It also states that individual business owners may decide on whether or not to allow firearms on their property. And, lastly, it states that people may not carry on high school grounds and the normal areas, like courtrooms. In this case, which CCW law takes precedence? The idea of places of education not allowing CCW, or the idea of institutions being able to choose for themselves?

Note the "In my state" part of your post. We're talking about the proposal to change state law to being able to carry on campus so I was suggesting a way of thinking of rights versus phobias.

In several states there is no law against carrying on campus. In some of those there is only campus policy. A teacher may be fired and a student may be expelled for carrying on campus. In at least one state that I'm aware of the state law literally states that the college policy has force of law and you can be arrested for carrying on campus even as a visitor. I'm avoiding all of those possibilities and asking for a viable reason that any law to be changed should not be changed to give the most freedom to the people.

ricklee4570
07-13-2012, 08:37
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19190089#post19190089)
I bet the 32 killed at Virginia Tech would disagree. Just for starters.

And I bet a number of their friends would disagree with that statement. And, I'd be willing to bet that a number of them also would blame the fact that Cho misused a system to purchase firearms, and try to push for his loopholes to be closed.

How much do you want to bet?

I live in Virginia and there was an overwhelming majority of those involved that felt they were "sitting ducks" and that if even one professor had a firearm a lot of lives would have been saved.

PEC-Memphis
07-13-2012, 09:49
Don't forget the Pearl High School shooting by Luke Woodham. He was held at gun point by a school official until Police arrived. He was headed back to his vehicle for more ammunition.

I remembered the incident - but couldn't recall the name of the HS. There are similar incidents as well....

RussP
07-13-2012, 10:01
One of the issues I have with this topic is the lack of discussion of exactly which students will be carrying.

Students, as the collective population of a college or university, includes people not legally qualified to carry because of age, 21 years old in most states.

Then the question is, of those legally qualified, how many will even want to?

What about states like Virginia where anyone 18 years old and not otherwise disqualified can open carry? The argument is that even though one may be responsible at 18, the college environment is not conducive to responsible behavior. Well, they do not put it that way...

It seems academia's tolerance for the behavior creating that environment is the real problem. If your environment cultivates irresponsible and often illegal behavior, you are the problem. If you do not believe your students are responsible adults at 21 years old, after you have had them for 2, 3, 4 years, you are the problem.

So, taking a university like VT with 28,000 students, how many would carry?

Hey, I have a novel idea. Offer courses in handgun safety, use of firearms in self defense situations, marksmanship, gunsmithing, and other firearm oriented topics.

ricklee4570
07-13-2012, 10:08
I believe VERY FEW students would obtain a CCW and carry. However, I do believe many professors and staff would carry if allowed too.

Chesafreak
07-13-2012, 10:13
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.

I wouldn't expect anyone to seek out and "take on" an active shooter. Still, if I were hiding under a desk waiting for campus police to arrive and the shooter steps in front of me, I would want to have a gun to defend myself instead of just praying while I'm gunned down.

I think that if a college wants to ban guns, then the unarmed victims of violent crime on campus should be able to sue the school because they were prevented from defending themselves and the campus police didn't protect them.

TexasFats
07-13-2012, 10:37
As a trained and POST certified peace officer in state of Georgia, who also happens to live in a town with 30,000 college students, I stand by my initial statement.

And, you assume that faculty and staff should also be unarmed and helpless? Where I teach, we have one, count him, one commissioned officer who carries arms on campus. If he is gone, and active shooter will be able to kill until SWAT from Austin PD arrives, sets up, and moves in. Now, how many of us will be killed by then?

Second, not all college students are 18-22. First of all, in Texas, one must be at least 21 to get a CHL. The 18, 19, and 20-year olds will still not be armed.

Third, what about our adult students, ranging in age from 25 to 60 or older. Are they also too immature and foolish to carry a gun?

Fourth, with a CHL, one can carry inside the Capitol Building of the State of Texas and on the streets of any city in Texas, but they are too irresponsible to carry on campus? Please explain why.

I would be that you also don't like any non-LEO being allowed to carry. I don't know that, but I would bet that to be true.

In Austin, there is one officer for every 1750 residents. Now, how are the police going to protect any of us with that ratio? Answer, they are not. They are going to show up after the fact, call the coroner, and collect evidence. If I am the victim, that doesn't help me one bit.

TexasFats
07-13-2012, 10:42
I believe VERY FEW students would obtain a CCW and carry. However, I do believe many professors and staff would carry if allowed too.

You got that right. Also, not all students are 18-22. In fact, where I teach, that population is a minority of our students. About half of our students are graduate students working on Master's degrees. That means that they have already completed four years of college prior to starting the Master's program. Furthermore, we have about 400 students on campus who are classified as non-traditional age (over 25) who are working on or completing their bachelor's degrees. They are a totally different type of student from the 18-22 age. And, in Texas, one must be, generally, at least 21 to get a CHL, so the argument about 18-year old freshmen packing is just so much baloney in this state anyway.

professorpinki
07-13-2012, 11:21
How much do you want to bet?

I live in Virginia and there was an overwhelming majority of those involved that felt they were "sitting ducks" and that if even one professor had a firearm a lot of lives would have been saved.

You're not the only one who lives in Virginia. Not all people here are like you or I. Some do not believe that civilians should be able to carry firearms, right, wrong, or indifferent.

Glenn E. Meyer
07-13-2012, 11:39
1. If a rampage is well planned as several have been, the police will arrive after the first 30 or so are killed.

Look at a large lecture hall, walk in and open fire. That's been done.

2. In a large, well chosen lecture, charging the shooter, throwing books, laptops, is not going to happen. The advantage is with the shooter. Simulate it sometimes.

3. Searching for the shooter - not a thing to do, but you can protect you location. Shooters have moved from room to room. Barricades don't always work and people have been shot through doors, trying to keep them closed.

4. Are the 21 year old male dorm resident a risk. That's the core of the problem.

5. However, what about the 25 year old recon marine going back to school? The police officer? The surgical nurse.

6. There are faculty and staff with reasonable training.

Thus a blanket ban on carry is stupid.

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 12:21
And, you assume that faculty and staff should also be unarmed and helpless? Where I teach, we have one, count him, one commissioned officer who carries arms on campus. If he is gone, and active shooter will be able to kill until SWAT from Austin PD arrives, sets up, and moves in. Now, how many of us will be killed by then?

Second, not all college students are 18-22. First of all, in Texas, one must be at least 21 to get a CHL. The 18, 19, and 20-year olds will still not be armed.

Third, what about our adult students, ranging in age from 25 to 60 or older. Are they also too immature and foolish to carry a gun?

Fourth, with a CHL, one can carry inside the Capitol Building of the State of Texas and on the streets of any city in Texas, but they are too irresponsible to carry on campus? Please explain why.

I would be that you also don't like any non-LEO being allowed to carry. I don't know that, but I would bet that to be true.

In Austin, there is one officer for every 1750 residents. Now, how are the police going to protect any of us with that ratio? Answer, they are not. They are going to show up after the fact, call the coroner, and collect evidence. If I am the victim, that doesn't help me one bit.
You would lose the bet about me ONLY wanting police officers carrying weapons. This couldn't be further from the truth. I recognize and am thankful for the second amendment. My position is that if college officials want to keep firearms off of their campus, then they should have that right.

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 12:24
Be careful there, big-boy...there's always someone out there bigger AND crazier than you (not to mention those armed and also trained fighters, bigger does always = winner in a fight). Try not to be overconfident!
Thanks for the advice, I never realized that my quote from the animal trainer Dave Salmoni would set me up for danger.

rmodel65
07-13-2012, 12:25
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.

you do realize in GA there are people already carrying on campus everyday legally that are not cops right??

rmodel65
07-13-2012, 12:29
You would lose the bet about me ONLY wanting police officers carrying weapons. This couldn't be further from the truth. I recognize and am thankful for the second amendment. My position is that if college officials want to keep firearms off of their campus, then they should have that right.



at a state run school no...private yes. the primary function of the government is to protect the rights of the individual this too includes schools. their secondary function is education....

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 12:30
you do realize in GA there are people already carrying on campus everyday legally that are not cops right??
Sure, if the campus is fine with it then all is well. At a college institution, I believe that the administration should be able to determine their own policy with regards to firearms on campus.

rmodel65
07-13-2012, 12:36
Sure, if the campus is fine with it then all is well. At a college institution, I believe that the administration should be able to determine their own policy with regards to firearms on campus.


not in GA the board of regents is a political subdivision of the state of georgia...they are subject to the states preemption only the general assembly has the power to restrict anything. everyone enumerated in OCGA 16-11-130 like yourself can carry on campus irregardless if a state school wants to not allow it or not
...but private schools can ban to their hearts content

Southswede
07-13-2012, 12:37
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.


How long is the police response going to be? How many people will die while waiting?
You should be the next chief of police because you really get it..........

rmodel65
07-13-2012, 12:48
they are looking for someone who wants to be a plaintiff for a georgiacarry.org lawsuit right now that wants to carry on GA campuses http://georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=71238&hilit=college+carry

RussP
07-13-2012, 12:59
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.As a trained and POST certified peace officer in state of Georgia, who also happens to live in a town with 30,000 college students, I stand by my initial statement.You would lose the bet about me ONLY wanting police officers carrying weapons. This couldn't be further from the truth. I recognize and am thankful for the second amendment. My position is that if college officials want to keep firearms off of their campus, then they should have that right.Sure, if the campus is fine with it then all is well. At a college institution, I believe that the administration should be able to determine their own policy with regards to firearms on campus.Why do you believe qualified students should not be legally armed?

Jeff82
07-13-2012, 13:15
Some people are just dim-witted, they don't get the concept of an "individual right." Maybe it's those dim-witted persons that should be barred the use of arms... as their thinking capacity is suspect.

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 13:32
Why do you believe qualified students should not be legally armed?
Therein lies the problem, define qualified student.

RussP
07-13-2012, 13:35
Why do you believe qualified students should not be legally armed?

Therein lies the problem, define qualified student.Legally qualified under the law.

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 13:36
Some people are just dim-witted, they don't get the concept of an "individual right." Maybe it's those dim-witted persons that should be barred the use of arms... as their thinking capacity is suspect.
I agree that some people are dim-witted, and dim-witted people tend to be the ones unable to have conversational debate over what could be determined a controversial topic.

Chesafreak
07-13-2012, 13:50
Quoted post deleted for Rules violation

What part of "shall not be infringed" doesn't make sense to you? If someone is legally allowed to carry, why would you deny them that right? Because they can't be trusted, and you believe its better for them to wait in fear for the police to arrive (with body bags)?

Are you a liberal?

Glenn E. Meyer
07-13-2012, 13:58
Does qualified definitionally mean law enforcement? Because if so, the qualification argument could be used to say that the average CCW type shouldn't carry in church or the mall. Both are crowded venues. What makes a school different in terms of qualification?

I also disagree that the Board of Trustees at a school have any input into exercising your basic human rights. They should be concerned with education. In my memory, Boards of Trustees happily supported racial discrimination at state schools.

A right should not be infringed upon unless the special circumstance produces a definite and predictable danger, such as carrying a gun by the MRI. Not that some police type regards the officer as qualified as compared to citizen that a state determined was qualified to carry.

Sure, a cop may want less guns around - that is for their own safety but it does the first 30 dead kids no good. They die while you are gearing up and figuring out what to do. The only reasonable response to a rampage is armed people on the spot.

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 15:46
What part of "shall not be infringed" doesn't make sense to you? If someone is legally allowed to carry, why would you deny them that right? Because they can't be trusted, and you believe its better for them to wait in fear for the police to arrive (with body bags)?

Are you a liberal?
I personally would not deny someone who is carrying legally their right to carry. My position is that the administration of the college should make the policy concerning firearms.
No, I've never voted for a candidate of the democratic party.

RussP
07-13-2012, 16:09
I personally would not deny someone who is carrying legally their right to carry. My position is that the administration of the college should make the policy concerning firearms.
No, I've never voted for a candidate of the democratic party.What criteria should an administration use to make that decision?

SCmasterblaster
07-13-2012, 16:40
I just OC'd my G17 on the crowded campus of Dartmouth College in Hanover, NH. No one was threatened or harmed. No one was mugged.

IvanVic
07-13-2012, 16:50
If you're old enough to carry a firearm at the grocery store, why not on campus? What's the difference?

rmodel65
07-13-2012, 16:54
If you're old enough to carry a firearm at the grocery store, why not on campus? What's the difference?


feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelingsssssssssssss

Brucev
07-13-2012, 17:20
Deleted.

Deaf Smith
07-13-2012, 17:42
Legalizing guns on college campuses won’t lead to safety

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SAFE PLACE OR ANYTHING THAT 'LEADS TO SAFETY'.

Safety is relative. Nothing 'leads to safety'.

Might be somewhat less dangerous but not 'safe'.

And that is why liberals are always perplexed as to why their gun laws never seem to reduce crime and 'lead to safety'.

Disarming one segment of society never makes it 'safe' except maybe for the dictator that wants to stay in power.

Deaf

tlcwrites
07-13-2012, 17:54
Lo those many years ago, I went to a university that banned guns on campus. No guns in the dorms, in the buildings, anywhere on the grounds of that campus. "Let the
police take care of it," people said. "Our students are safer if they aren't armed."

I was the victim of an attempted (interrupted before it could be completed) gang rape at gunpoint. In my dorm room. Committed by four other students of my gun-free university, who held guns to my head while they told me in excruciating detail what they planned to do to me. But for the grace of god and/or an accident of timing (take your pick) my assailants surely would have completed their attack, and I (unarmed because I followed the rules) would have been absolutely powerless to stop them.

How exactly did the school's "no guns" policy make me one iota safer?

Tammy

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 18:18
What criteria should an administration use to make that decision?
What criteria do they use to make any decision? I would think that they make any of their policies based on experience and their administrative education.

RussP
07-13-2012, 18:19
Re: OP. For the most part... no. Why? Don't trust college aged students. It's that simple. Just simply do not trust them to act responsibly.So, those college aged students, those of the legal age to carry, are only responsible off campus, not on campus? Not talking about those not old enough to carry, just those of legal age.

RussP
07-13-2012, 18:46
What criteria do they use to make any decision? I would think that they make any of their policies based on experience and their administrative education."Their administrative education," what do you mean?

Most admins would have no experience with legally armed students on campus. Do you believe "no experience" is a valid basis for establishing policy? Wouldn't that vacuum lead to decisions based on personal fears and bias?

Don't you believe the actual experiences at other colleges and universities should be included?

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 19:34
"Their administrative education," what do you mean?

Most admins would have no experience with legally armed students on campus. Do you believe "no experience" is a valid basis for establishing policy? Wouldn't that vacuum lead to decisions based on personal fears and bias?

Don't you believe the actual experiences at other colleges and universities should be included?
By administrative education, I'm referring to the secondary education done by people looking to make a career of administration, as well as the education of on the job experience itself.
You say that most admins would have no experience with legally armed students, in that case they have experience with only students they believe to be unarmed. Their choice to not allow firearms on campus is based on their experience with these unarmed students, and evidently they see this as the safest environment for higher education.
Yes, I think when a person sets any kind of policy, they do so with personal bias as to what they see is best for that particular situation. Bias is part of human nature, it sounds like a taboo word, but all people are biased to what they believe is right.

Z28ricer
07-13-2012, 20:07
By administrative education, I'm referring to the secondary education done by people looking to make a career of administration, as well as the education of on the job experience itself.
You say that most admins would have no experience with legally armed students, in that case they have experience with only students they believe to be unarmed. Their choice to not allow firearms on campus is based on their experience with these unarmed students, and evidently they see this as the safest environment for higher education.
Yes, I think when a person sets any kind of policy, they do so with personal bias as to what they see is best for that particular situation. Bias is part of human nature, it sounds like a taboo word, but all people are biased to what they believe is right.

Indeed, "what they believe is right"

While blatantly ignoring "shall not be infringed"

You, them, anybody, somebody, nobody, all should have no say on who cannot legally bring their weapon for self defense.

Unfortunately the saying is true "never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers" because the limitations being discussed are a direct result.

RussP
07-13-2012, 20:57
Folks, insulting other GT members will not be tolerated, no matter how subtle you try to be. As a matter of fact, as I have posted many times before, subtlety only exacerbates the violation.

The same thing goes for trolling, baiting other members into personal pissing contests.

No infractions were given this time. And while I do not expect a "next time," infractions will be earned if it does happen.

Thanks...

RussP
07-13-2012, 21:17
By administrative education, I'm referring to the secondary education done by people looking to make a career of administration, as well as the education of on the job experience itself.
You say that most admins would have no experience with legally armed students, in that case they have experience with only students they believe to be unarmed.I need to break your post here.

It is interesting you say, "students they believe to be unarmed." Are you saying they believe the students are unarmed, but indeed some are armed?"

Is it your belief that on campuses where carry is not prohibited by law, students are indeed carrying?Their choice to not allow firearms on campus is based on their experience with these unarmed students, and evidently they see this as the safest environment for higher education.Is it your belief that there allowing legal carry of firearms on campuses would not increase the safety of the higher education environment? I am looking for your belief, not that of anyone else.Yes, I think when a person sets any kind of policy, they do so with personal bias as to what they see is best for that particular situation. Bias is part of human nature, it sounds like a taboo word, but all people are biased to what they believe is right.Would you agree that it is possible that an individual's personal bias might lead to a decision that puts others in danger?

Last, you forgot, or overlooked, my last question.Don't you believe the actual experiences at other colleges and universities should be included?Thanks...

Deaf Smith
07-13-2012, 21:30
How exactly did the school's "no guns" policy make me one iota safer?

Tammy,

Do remember the D.C. assistant police chief said not to fight back even if robbed or injured.

So it made it safer for the rapist! You see, they were not lying! The campus was safer for some.

In reality they do feel everyone (except the police) should be disarmed and if some are killed it does not matter if the good people are hurt and not the bad ones, just as long as the numbers are down.

Deaf

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 21:53
I need to break your post here.

It is interesting you say, "students they believe to be unarmed." Are you saying they believe the students are unarmed, but indeed some are armed?"

Is it your belief that on campuses where carry is not prohibited by law, students are indeed carrying?Is it your belief that there allowing legal carry of firearms on campuses would not increase the safety of the higher education environment? I am looking for your belief, not that of anyone else.Would you agree that it is possible that an individual's personal bias might lead to a decision that puts others in danger?

Last, you forgot, or overlooked, my last question.Thanks...
I used the phrase "students they believe to be unarmed" because in your statement you said that the administration had no experience with armed students. So that would, by default, make the students that they do have experience with "unarmed students".
I cannot say with certainty that students are carrying where it is prohibited, but I would guess that it does happen. But as to how often, there's no way to be certain.
No, I don't believe that students carrying firearms on campus would make the area any more safe.
Could an individuals own bias lead to a decision that could put others in danger? Absolutely. Unfortunately, human error is part of the society that we live in and bias in decision making can at times fall into that category.

unit1069
07-13-2012, 21:55
You would lose the bet about me ONLY wanting police officers carrying weapons. This couldn't be further from the truth. I recognize and am thankful for the second amendment. My position is that if college officials want to keep firearms off of their campus, then they should have that right.

That's great to know. So what's your response to my question you neglected to answer?

As a LEO are you seriously claiming that a delayed response from SWORN officers like that in the above example is preferable to immediate civilian response? Armed civilian response in an immediate fashion that may have saved the lives of most of Cho's victims?

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 22:15
That's great to know. So what's your response to my question you neglected to answer?
I am in no way saying that I want people on a college campus to be victims of a violent crime, but I believe that the administration should be the ones setting the rules for the campus that they are in charge of. If someone on campus being armed could've saved a life, then by all means I would have wanted that to happen. My stance is not one of leave the unarmed to die at the hands of violent criminals, but the college administration should have the say in what is allowed on campus, and if enough people felt that carrying weapons on campus would make the place a safer environment, then I feel like it would be the policy at most colleges and universities in this country.

Armchair Commando
07-13-2012, 22:15
Bottom line: College students have the right to protect themselves too.

You should change that bro, It's EVERY AMERICAN should have the right to protect themselves!

Armchair Commando
07-13-2012, 22:17
My response is that I'm glad it worked out well in the examples given. My stance is still that the college should determine policies regarding firearms on campus. I am in no way saying that I want people on a college campus to be victims of a violent crime, but I believe that the administration should be the ones setting the rules for the campus that they are in charge of.

What your saying is you could care less about college students, Because if you cared one bit you would recognize their right to bear arms.

unit1069
07-13-2012, 22:40
I am in no way saying that I want people on a college campus to be victims of a violent crime, but I believe that the administration should be the ones setting the rules for the campus that they are in charge of. If someone on campus being armed could've saved a life, then by all means I would have wanted that to happen. My stance is not one of leave the unarmed to die at the hands of violent criminals, but the college administration should have the say in what is allowed on campus, and if enough people felt that carrying weapons on campus would make the place a safer environment, then I feel like it would be the policy at most colleges and universities in this country.

Thanks for the answer, and may I point out that you've undercut your own argument for allowing college administration apparatchiks' ability to prevent immediate teacher/student response to deadly aggressors.

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 22:47
What your saying is you could care less about college students, Because if you cared one bit you would recognize their right to bear arms.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I've stated clearly what my opinion is with regards to firearms on campus. My stance is not based out of any malice toward anyone, only who I think should be responsible for making the decisions regarding firearms on campus.

zbusdriver
07-13-2012, 22:49
Thanks for the advice, I never realized that my quote from the animal trainer Dave Salmoni would set me up for danger.Sorry, I thought that was your quote.

Let me ask this, do you believe that college campuses are somehow magically safer than all other communities? And if not, why would you not believe that the same standard of self protection should apply?

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 22:56
Thanks for the answer, and may I point out that you've undercut your own argument for allowing college administration apparatchiks' ability to prevent immediate teacher/student response to deadly aggressors.
The administration should set the rules with regards to their campus. I would want someone to use whatever means necessary to preserve their life. Your confusing my position, it is only that the school officials should be the ones making the rules with regards to students carrying firearms. If you want to carry a firearm and go to class, then find an institution that allows it and by all means attend there.

BulldawgGlock
07-13-2012, 23:04
Sorry, I thought that was your quote.

Let me ask this, do you believe that college campuses are somehow magically safer than all other communities? And if not, why would you not believe that the same standard of self protection should apply?
I should've put Dave's signature next to it.
No I don't believe that they are safer than all communities, however, they are a very unique community. I think that most college campuses are very safe places, and if you look at the numbers of students in this country that attend college without incident, I believe that the statistics reflect that. I don't think that allowing firearms to be carried on campus by students would make the environment any safer than it is without them.

tlcwrites
07-13-2012, 23:16
In reality they do feel everyone (except the police) should be disarmed and if some are killed it does not matter if the good people are hurt and not the bad ones, just as long as the numbers are down.

Yup. Sad, though, that so many are willing to let the Good Guys be collateral damage in the ideological war on firearms ownership. This is why I'm counting the days until I can buy my first handgun (front runner is a Glock 23, but waiting until my daughter turns 18 and moves out because she has mental health issues that make having her and a gun under the same roof unwise.)

Tammy

tlcwrites
07-13-2012, 23:31
I think that most college campuses are very safe places, and if you look at the numbers of students in this country that attend college without incident, I believe that the statistics reflect that.

Statistics like these, you mean?

http://www.examiner.com/article/1-4-female-college-students-will-be-raped-before-graduation

http://concealedcampus.org/campus-crime/

Do you have some other statistics that show otherwise?

Tammy

Glenn E. Meyer
07-14-2012, 09:30
School administrators care only about liability and not about the individual's safety for the sake of the individual. It is only the financial or reputation impact of what happens to the student or victim that concerns them.

It has been calculated that they have little financial risk from a rampage. Easy to settle. However, the actions of a CCW type if they allow them on campus might cost them more. Well known in the higher ed. literature. That's why state laws must remove liability from the school for the actions of the concealed carrier.

To think that administrators know what's best for your personal safety is naive at best. Look at Penn State for the ultimate horror show.

Merlin40
07-14-2012, 11:29
I had a boss awhile back. He found out thru a friend, that I CCW in the work vehicle. Bosses wife was not OK with this, and the boss told me he did not want me carrying while in his company truck. MY wife, wrote a letter of intent to my boss, stating that in the event that I was attacked or robbed while in the company truck, and was deprived of the means to defend myself, she would sue the owner of the business. She had the letter notorized. I showed it to my boss. Guess what? He told me it was OK to carry, just "don't say anything about it". I never had the occasion to use the weapon in self-defense, but it was a comfort knowing it was there. I also carried while in the shop...Nothing more was ever said, and the boss knew I carried. Sometimes you gotta make a stand. I risked losing my job, sure. But my personal safety is very important to me. Being a CCW holder tells LE that you have had backround checks done, and that for the most part, you pretty much obey the law. I do not believe that ANY institution should have the ability to regulate away, my God-given right to protect myself.

Misty02
07-14-2012, 12:08
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.

What about the students that are robbed at gun point, the ones that are raped, the ones that are carjacked, etc? Do they not deserve the same methods of self-defense you and I have against serious harm or potential death?

Forget about active shooters for a minute, think of every-day normal life and every-day normal dangers. Now, if while on campus they were in a protective bubble where no harm could come to them, then I would agree with you; obviously, that is not the case.


.

Misty02
07-14-2012, 12:17
As a trained and POST certified peace officer in state of Georgia, who also happens to live in a town with 30,000 college students, I stand by my initial statement.

As a trained and POST certified peace officer in the State of Georgia, are you willing to personally escort every student from point A to point B to ensure their safety?

.

Misty02
07-14-2012, 12:54
Therein lies the problem, define qualified student.

The same students the state would allow to carry outside the campus. Is there an invisible barrier which once crossed a student would suffer a metamorphosis and become more or less responsible depending on whether they’re standing on a road within the public college/university ground or on a road just outside it?

Is the student also immediately in a protective bubble impermeable by danger while in the public college/university road or surrounding areas? Rapes and armed robberies while on campus property seem to indicate that is not the case.


.

unit1069
07-14-2012, 12:56
The administration should set the rules with regards to their campus. I would want someone to use whatever means necessary to preserve their life. Your confusing my position, it is only that the school officials should be the ones making the rules with regards to students carrying firearms. If you want to carry a firearm and go to class, then find an institution that allows it and by all means attend there.

dawg, you're all over the map now with various positions that conflict with your original statement.

I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.

Others have posted actual situations where armed teachers/students have intervened to stop deadly school rampages.

I can accept your wanting school administrations to set policy --- IF those are private institutions. Public institutions have a duty to ensure constitutional rights without picking and choosing what rights are "good" and which are "bad".

One of the biggest frauds being perpetrated against students today on public institution campuses is that politically correct speech is oftentimes the only free speech allowed, a clear violation of students' First Amendment guarantees.

Denying qualified students their right to exercise their Second Amendment rights is yet another civil rights crime being perpetrated by some public education institutions purely for political (and financial) reasons.

So back to your statements; do you believe constitutional guarantees should stop at public institution boundaries or do you think public institutions should be at the forefront of recognizing and cherishing individual rights?

oldman11
07-14-2012, 12:59
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.
Let the Police handle it? Are you serious? Have they been able to handle any of the shootings on campus so far? NO THEY HAVE NOT! Allowing eligible and responsible students and educators to carry might not stop all the shootings, rapes, and robberies, but it would surely stop some of them. Without the ability to protect themselves and/or others then their chances are ZERO. I and several others were the victims in an armed robbery one day; let me tell you about the feeling of hopelessness there is. If you don't wish to carry and protect yourself that's fine, but don't take away other peoples rights to protect themselves. Ask the people who have been the victims (and are still living) what they think of your idea. Ask the parents, husbands and wives of the people that died in these shootings what they think? When there is another massive shooting you should go there and help bandage the wounded, help carry and bury the dead, walk around and listen to the cries and anguish, smell the blood. Then you might get an education.

Misty02
07-14-2012, 13:13
Lo those many years ago, I went to a university that banned guns on campus. No guns in the dorms, in the buildings, anywhere on the grounds of that campus. "Let the
police take care of it," people said. "Our students are safer if they aren't armed."

I was the victim of an attempted (interrupted before it could be completed) gang rape at gunpoint. In my dorm room. Committed by four other students of my gun-free university, who held guns to my head while they told me in excruciating detail what they planned to do to me. But for the grace of god and/or an accident of timing (take your pick) my assailants surely would have completed their attack, and I (unarmed because I followed the rules) would have been absolutely powerless to stop them.

How exactly did the school's "no guns" policy make me one iota safer?

Tammy

Not in the slightest, Tammy. I’m also glad they didn’t complete their attack, although no one should experience as much as you did.

I believe we’ve all done a very poor job at explaining and having others understand why some of us carry. The funny thing is that all of us (those that carry and those that don’t want anyone to carry) are after the same thing. None of us wish to be harmed or have our family harmed. Where I believe we’ve failed is in the having others understand we can’t control the actions of others, people who would unjustly harm and kill others have always existed (from the caveman era till now) and will always exist. The only difference between then and now is that being equally armed, the weaker and smaller have a chance at making it out alive. Being armed only provides for the possibility we can level the playing field when the forces being faced outnumber us, are stronger or armed as well. It doesn’t guarantee success, but it is better than the alternative.


.

Misty02
07-14-2012, 13:29
I used the phrase "students they believe to be unarmed" because in your statement you said that the administration had no experience with armed students. So that would, by default, make the students that they do have experience with "unarmed students".
I cannot say with certainty that students are carrying where it is prohibited, but I would guess that it does happen. But as to how often, there's no way to be certain.
No, I don't believe that students carrying firearms on campus would make the area any more safe.
Could an individuals own bias lead to a decision that could put others in danger? Absolutely. Unfortunately, human error is part of the society that we live in and bias in decision making can at times fall into that category.

If I were a student, it wouldn’t be my intent to make the “area” safer, my intent would be just to carry for own personal safety. Why do most of us carry when we’re out and about?

I could be wrong on this but I have a feeling criminals feel more empowered when it is known to them they are in a no-carry zone as they are least likely to encounter an armed resistance. I’m curious about those colleges and universities that allow legal carry in their campus, how do their numbers on armed robbery, rapes, carjacking and other assaults compare with other institutions that forbid it? Is it possible to be a deterrent of sorts, even if not intentional by those that carry?

.

Stevekozak
07-14-2012, 14:13
I had a boss awhile back. He found out thru a friend, that I CCW in the work vehicle. Bosses wife was not OK with this, and the boss told me he did not want me carrying while in his company truck. MY wife, wrote a letter of intent to my boss, stating that in the event that I was attacked or robbed while in the company truck, and was deprived of the means to defend myself, she would sue the owner of the business. She had the letter notorized. I showed it to my boss. Guess what? He told me it was OK to carry, just "don't say anything about it". I never had the occasion to use the weapon in self-defense, but it was a comfort knowing it was there. I also carried while in the shop...Nothing more was ever said, and the boss knew I carried. Sometimes you gotta make a stand. I risked losing my job, sure. But my personal safety is very important to me. Being a CCW holder tells LE that you have had backround checks done, and that for the most part, you pretty much obey the law. I do not believe that ANY institution should have the ability to regulate away, my God-given right to protect myself.
Glad you kept your job. Quit telling people that you carry. You can see what it lead to. Frankly, I would have no problem with you carrying if you worked for me, but would probably tossed you out on your can for threatening to sue me. :wavey:

Cavalry Doc
07-14-2012, 14:48
It's never a good idea to admit that you are breaking the law online. Just sayin'

Bruce M
07-14-2012, 15:12
It's never a good idea to admit that you are breaking the law online. Just sayin'
Excellent point, sir.

Z28ricer
07-14-2012, 15:42
It's never a good idea to admit that you are breaking the law online. Just sayin'

This is true. But in the past few examples, i'm quite sure nobody has done so, I believe some policy ignoring, but technically not breaking the law.

oldman11
07-14-2012, 17:31
Not in the slightest, Tammy. I’m also glad they didn’t complete their attack, although no one should experience as much as you did.

I believe we’ve all done a very poor job at explaining and having others understand why some of us carry. The funny thing is that all of us (those that carry and those that don’t want anyone to carry) are after the same thing. None of us wish to be harmed or have our family harmed. Where I believe we’ve failed is in the having others understand we can’t control the actions of others, people who would unjustly harm and kill others have always existed (from the caveman era till now) and will always exist. The only difference between then and now is that being equally armed, the weaker and smaller have a chance at making it out alive. Being armed only provides for the possibility we can level the playing field when the forces being faced outnumber us, are stronger or armed as well. It doesn’t guarantee success, but it is better than the alternative.


.
+1. Well said.

The Good Reverend
07-14-2012, 18:49
My main campus is located in the lovely Flint, Michigan. I am not exaggerating when I say that I get "safety emails" on average at least every other week about shootings, assaults, or muggings in the immediate vicinity of/on campus. Whenever I go in, I leave my gun in the car; however, I can guarantee you that if I had to walk out to my car after dark...I'd never unholster. The bottom line with any of these arguments is simple: Anyone who is going to ignore the 'do not assault/rob/murder/rape' policy isn't going to have a passing thought about obeying firearms regulations.

tlcwrites
07-14-2012, 19:06
Being armed only provides for the possibility we can level the playing field when the forces being faced outnumber us, are stronger or armed as well. It doesn’t guarantee success, but it is better than the alternative.

Exactly, and this is why I'm making the choice to empower myself, to ensure that - to as great an extent as I am able - I won't have to be a victim ever again. There are no guarantees, of course, but if I should ever again find myself in a situation where my life is in jeopardy, I'd like to have other options available to me besides surrendering myself to the whims of a predator.

Kathy Jackson (of corneredcat.com) says the purpose of a firearm is so that, when the predators make the decision that someone is going to suffer or die, we have the ability to make the decision that it won't be us. That's pretty much how I see things.

Tammy

Chris Brines
07-14-2012, 19:16
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.

I am a student at a college in one of Houston's worst neighborhoods. There are gangbangers, street junkies, and other such derelicts wandering the streets around (not on, around) campus, pretty much every minute of every day. Not all students park on campus. In fact, some of us have to park in Houston's 3rd ward to go to class. Hell, some of us ride a bicycle to school. Which is a little scary when you park (or ride your bike through) there during the day, but alot scary when you are walking back to your car (or riding your bike home from school) at night. In fact, even ON campus, it is pretty scary walking around at night, considering there have been numerous armed robberies, assaults, and sexual assaults on the campus.

I see no reason why someone should be denied the right to carry on campus, as it's prohibition is nothing more than the result of unfounded fears by the pro gun control community. We are not talking about a high school with children, these are adults. Allowing a student who is qualified to carry anywhere else, to carry on campus, will hurt nobody, considering the fact that if someone wants to go on a shooting rampage on a college campus, they don't need a permit to do that anyway. Oh and then there is the issue of school shootings like VA tech. yes, if one of those students had a gun, it is very likely less people would have been killed that day. But we'll never know that, because they're all dead, since nobody was able to stop the maniac from shooting everyone.

Chris Brines
07-14-2012, 19:37
........

Merlin40
07-14-2012, 20:53
It's never a good idea to admit that you are breaking the law online. Just sayin'
If that was directed at my statement, understand that I broke no laws. There was no company policy regarding the carrying of a weapon. Either in the truck, or in the shop. It was simply a decision made by the bosses wife, (who had never worked in the field, or traveled in the areas we went to) My wife was perhaps jumping the gun when she drafted the letter.

RussP
07-14-2012, 21:03
At issue is some feel "Legalizing guns on college campuses won’t lead to safety."


They admit, as in the lead article in this thread, that "the number of directed assaults rose from 23.9 percent during the 1970s and 1980s to 59.5 percent in the 1990s and 2000s. Over 30 percent of those assaults took place in dorm rooms or apartment areas.

Most notably, 54 percent of those attacks took place with firearms." Those numbers come from a 2010 joint report by the U.S. Secret Service, the Department of Education and the FBI released a report about targeted violence at campuses nationwide.CAMPUS ATTACKS - TARGETED VIOLENCE AFFECTING INSTITUTIONS OF HIGHER EDUCATION (http://www2.ed.gov/admins/lead/safety/campus-attacks.pdf).It would behoove everyone to read the entire report.

As others said, carrying on campus is not about making the campus safer. It is about the student who accepts the responsibility for his or her own safety being able to more easily protect themselves.

Here is an interesting number that you need to know. The median age of student casualties in the report was 23 years old. That of employee casualties was 37 years old. That is in Table 6 on Page 16 of the report. A breakdown of ages is in Figure 3 on Page 15.

The irony of the article linked in Post 1 is after listing the information about the increase in campus violence, they go on to say, "Nonetheless, the possibility of crime against students is not enough to warrant the legalization of guns on campuses. Though students will be able to more easily protect themselves, the dangers of allowing guns on campus are greater." [My emphasis]

Now, as to others making the decision whether you may or may not carry for you, it is wrong.

What contract do students enter into with their university or college these days spelling out the institution's responsibility and liability for a students safety and well being? Does it say the institution is responsible? Does it say the institution will make reasonable efforts to provide a safe learning environment? Does it say the student is responsible for their safety.

And, of course, no member of an administration holds any personal liability should a tragedy happen. Look at VT.

A typical open access campus cannot be safely secured by the average campus security/police department. Ain't going to happen.

As I said earlier, institutions of higher education should offer a curriculum centered around "The Firearm".

Chris Brines
07-14-2012, 22:36
At issue is some feel "Legalizing guns on college campuses won’t lead to safety."



What contract do students enter into with their university or college these days spelling out the institution's responsibility and liability for a students safety and well being? Does it say the institution is responsible? Does it say the institution will make reasonable efforts to provide a safe learning environment? Does it say the student is responsible for their safety.



Like I said, what people don't seem to be taking into consideration, is the fact that if you disallow a student to carry on campus, that means they must leave their gun either at home, or in their car. Whether or not the home or car is on school property, can make a huge difference. What if someone rides a bicycle to school? What if someone parks wayyyy off campus (as I do many times, and believe me, walking through that neighborhood even armed isn't fun, it's downright scary unarmed, especially at night). So basically one of the many points I want people to take into consideration, is the fact that this causes students (who are not children, but grown men and women) who have displayed proficiency in shooting enough to get a CHL, to have to disarm for much more than just the few hours they are in class, to some, this means they can't carry at all throughout their entire day. No problem if you live in Mayberry, but living in a major metropolitan area is a different story. Then there is the issue of school shootings, which obviously can happen anywhere, any time.

Lior
07-15-2012, 05:43
I'm a bad guy, and I love the idea of policy prohibiting armed students. Makes my job of robbing, assaulting and murdering students easier.

But seriously, when I studied at Tel Aviv University, plenty of students carried firearms from time to time. Galils, M16s, Uzis and privately owned pistols too. I have no idea how many concealed daily (because I could not see them). The rules clearly permitted the carrying of firearms by licensed individuals. Violent crime was nonexistent.

Caveat: correlation does not prove causality.

RussP
07-15-2012, 07:26
There are two groups of students. There are those who live on campus and those who commute from off campus like you do.Like I said, what people don't seem to be taking into consideration, is the fact that if you disallow a student to carry on campus, that means they must leave their gun either at home, or in their car. Whether or not the home or car is on school property, can make a huge difference. What if someone rides a bicycle to school? What if someone parks wayyyy off campus (as I do many times, and believe me, walking through that neighborhood even armed isn't fun, it's downright scary unarmed, especially at night). So basically one of the many points I want people to take into consideration, is the fact that this causes students (who are not children, but grown men and women) who have displayed proficiency in shooting enough to get a CHL, to have to disarm for much more than just the few hours they are in class, to some, this means they can't carry at all throughout their entire day. No problem if you live in Mayberry, but living in a major metropolitan area is a different story. Then there is the issue of school shootings, which obviously can happen anywhere, any time.What about students who live on campus, but have either a job or internship off campus? There is that invisible line again delineating the imaginary utopia on campus from the real world.

Want to know about crime on your campus?

Everyone here know what the "Clery Act" is? The Jeanne Clery Disclosure of Campus Security Policy and Campus Crime Statistics Act or Clery Act is a federal statute signed in 1990. Here is a link at Wikipedia about it: Clery Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clery_Act#Annual_security_report).

It mandates full disclosure by an institution of all crime reported on or near that institution's campus.

I looked up a couple of schools searching for "[name of school] Clery Report". I was surprised at how low reported crime actually is. But, it is the reported part that is the problem. Some estimate that only 25% of crimes involving students are actually reported.

This could be why it is so easy to say, ...they go on to say, "Nonetheless, the possibility of crime against students is not enough to warrant the legalization of guns on campuses...[My emphasis]

RussP
07-15-2012, 08:07
Sure about that?

Poster is from Oklahoma, so is this article.

Looks like our Okie friend is admitting he carries on campus in violation of the law. I guess I could be wrong, and his college isn't covered, but on first read, looks like trouble.

Not a good idea...... to admit that online.From handgunlaw.us Oklahoma (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/oklahoma.pdf) page.D. No person in possession of a valid concealed handgun license issued pursuant to the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act shall be authorized to carry the handgun into or upon any college, university, or technology center school property, except as provided in this subsection. For purposes of this subsection, the following property shall not be construed as prohibited for persons having a valid concealed handgun license:
1. Any property set aside for the use or parking of any vehicle, whether attended or unattended,
provided the handgun is carried or stored as required by law and the handgun is not removed from the
vehicle without the prior consent of the college or university president or technology center school
administrator while the vehicle is on any college, university, or technology center school property;

2. Any property authorized for possession or use of handguns by college, university, or technology
center school policy; and

3. Any property authorized by the written consent of the college or university president or technology
center school administrator, provided the written consent is carried with the handgun and the valid concealed handgun license while on college, university, or technology center school property.

The college, university, or technology center school may notify the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation within ten (10) days of a violation of any provision of this subsection by a licensee. Upon receipt of a written notification of violation, the Bureau shall give a reasonable notice to the licensee and hold a hearing. At the hearing upon a determination that the licensee has violated any provision of this subsection, the licensee may be subject to an administrative fine of Two Hundred Fifty Dollars ($250.00) and may have the concealed handgun license suspended for three (3) months.

Nothing contained in any provision of this subsection shall be construed to authorize or allow any college, university, or technology center school to establish any policy or rule that has the effect of prohibiting any person in lawful possession of a concealed handgun license from possession of a handgun allowable under such license in places described in paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 of this subsection. Nothing contained in any provision of this subsection shall be construed to limit the authority of any college or university in this state from taking administrative action against any student for any violation of any provision of this subsection.

Misty02
07-15-2012, 09:44
Exactly, and this is why I'm making the choice to empower myself, to ensure that - to as great an extent as I am able - I won't have to be a victim ever again. There are no guarantees, of course, but if I should ever again find myself in a situation where my life is in jeopardy, I'd like to have other options available to me besides surrendering myself to the whims of a predator.

Kathy Jackson (of corneredcat.com) says the purpose of a firearm is so that, when the predators make the decision that someone is going to suffer or die, we have the ability to make the decision that it won't be us. That's pretty much how I see things.

Tammy

That is the spirit! :)

It is also what I would like others to understand when they say they are ok with keeping firearms out of campuses (or anywhere else for that matter). They have taken away an effective tool of self-defense, by our gender, our size or other physical limitations we’ll be more attractive prey for some predators. I have no issues with “let the police handle it” whenever that is a viable alternative, the sad truth is that there aren’t enough of them to serve as our shadow every minute of the day. Additionally, I understand and agree that no one has the right to expect an officer to enter a situation that would put at risk his/her life. There will be times when they’ll have to wait for back-up or they won’t make it home that night. I have no right to expect others to place themselves in that position for me or mine. I, on the other hand, being left with no other alternative, would have no issues with entering a situation that is likely to end my life if it means saving one of mine or buy them some time so they can do it themselves. Why would anyone consciously take that away?

There isn’t a single campus out there that can guarantee the safety of their students. That goes for expensive elite private colleges/universities as well as State college/universities. The private ones can go ahead and put whichever rules or code of conduct their administration desires, should the State ones follow the state laws it would allow students a choice of where to go.

********
I also like Kathy Jackson; I’ve used her website to introduce many to firearms and firearm safety. Certain sections of her site are a reading requirement before I take someone new to the range with us.

.

Deaf Smith
07-15-2012, 11:53
Yup. Sad, though, that so many are willing to let the Good Guys be collateral damage in the ideological war on firearms ownership. This is why I'm counting the days until I can buy my first handgun (front runner is a Glock 23, but waiting until my daughter turns 18 and moves out because she has mental health issues that make having her and a gun under the same roof unwise.)

Tammy

Well Tammy if possible you could get the 23, have it kept off site, and be practicing now to get your skills up. Or just rent one at a gun range for practice now. That way you would be able to have knowledge of not only shooting and gun handling but just what kind of gun you really want.

Deaf

Jeff82
07-15-2012, 12:45
I'm a bad guy, and I love the idea of policy prohibiting armed students. Makes my job of robbing, assaulting and murdering students easier.

But seriously, when I studied at Tel Aviv University, plenty of students carried firearms from time to time. Galils, M16s, Uzis and privately owned pistols too. I have no idea how many concealed daily (because I could not see them). The rules clearly permitted the carrying of firearms by licensed individuals. Violent crime was nonexistent.

Caveat: correlation does not prove causality.

The Israelis learned early on that firearms in a school setting is a necessity when certain people hate you.

tlcwrites
07-15-2012, 13:04
just rent one at a gun range for practice now. That way you would be able to have knowledge of not only shooting and gun handling but just what kind of gun you really want.

This is what I'm doing presently - I'm taking advantage of the year to try as many different guns as I can get my hands on, I'm going to the range with a friend about once a month, and also shooting IDPA almost once a month (with a borrowed Glock). I've tried all sorts of guns so far (1911, Beretta 92, Glock, M&P, a couple of revolvers, PPK/S) and have a few more on my list to try out before I make a final purchase decision next year. But so far, the Glock 23 is the leader of the pack for me (though I like the M&P 40c an awful lot too...maybe I'll have to buy both. :->)

Thanks for the suggestion and encouragement, though - it's much appreciated.

Tammy

RussP
07-15-2012, 14:33
I removed some posts from the open forum. A member stated he carried where prohibited by the laws of his state.

We do not advocate, condone, suggest, or discuss specifics on violating the law here.

Misty02
07-15-2012, 16:21
I'm a bad guy, and I love the idea of policy prohibiting armed students. Makes my job of robbing, assaulting and murdering students easier.

But seriously, when I studied at Tel Aviv University, plenty of students carried firearms from time to time. Galils, M16s, Uzis and privately owned pistols too. I have no idea how many concealed daily (because I could not see them). The rules clearly permitted the carrying of firearms by licensed individuals. Violent crime was nonexistent.

Caveat: correlation does not prove causality.

I guess muggers, rapists and other predators didn't feel very comfortable conducting normal business in such an environment, ah? ;)

.

mike from philly
07-17-2012, 10:43
.... I think that most college campuses are very safe places, and if you look at the numbers of students in this country that attend college without incident, I believe that the statistics reflect that. I don't think that allowing firearms to be carried on campus by students would make the environment any safer than it is without them.

A couple points for your consideration:

1) Do you think Georgia Tech is a safe campus? How about the surrounding area? <GT is not UGA>

2) What is your department's response time to an Active Killer Event? How fast can your department end the event? <Most of the time its 13 minutes>

3) Do you know of Ron Bosch's studies where he found every minute that an active killer event continues is another 5 victims. <Check out PoliceOne>

4) If guns are bad on campus, then I'm sure you'll agree that we should repeal 16-11-130 that values government employee lives greater than the citizens lives.

5) Why are you so sure background checked licensees will act irresponsibly on college campuses when they don't do so anywhere else in the state?

Kriterian
07-17-2012, 11:16
Don't care how you feel about it, what overwhelming evidence do you have in the history of students carrying concealed legally that shows the right should be restricted?

It's a right. You must show overwhelming evidence as to why it should be ... let's use the word infringed.

Never mind that, what about non-students on campus having a weapon? I work at a private college, that while being expensive is like an island surrounded on all sides by the ghetto. I have my CCW but it's useless since I can't bring my weapon on campus, despite not being a rowdy, drunk fratboy. I can't even keep it locked up in my car so that I feel safer driving home through the ghetto late at night.

Rustin
07-17-2012, 12:07
I don't have a problem with keeping firearms off of campus. The notion that other armed students could and would jump in and take on an active shooter(s) is pretty far fetched. Let the Police handle College Campuses.

By your logic, no one anywhere should carry a gun for protection because they might actually use it for defense.:faint:

I would agree with the above poster, you are either brainwashed, or just very hypocritical, or without logic, or all of the above. The fact that your an officer saying leave it to the police is astounding. You know better than most that the police can't be there all the time, and they usually aren't there at the most critical moments!

spcwes
07-18-2012, 09:55
As a trained and POST certified peace officer in state of Georgia, who also happens to live in a town with 30,000 college students, I stand by my initial statement.

As a peace officer I don't agree with the blanket of keeping them unarmed and allowing only the LE to deal with the issues. Does it keep the clusterfk potential down when LE respond? Maybe..

That being said how many officers at one time can you respond with at the scene of an active shooter while trying to figure out where an active shooter is among 30,000 students?

Keeping law abiding citizens from being able to protect themselves and others in a case of an active shooter is bass ackwards in my opinion.

I have issues with limiting law abiding citizens’ rights to protect themselves from a threat such as this, just my humble opinion. Not only have I been a law enforcement officer in a college town for years I am currently next to one of the largest universities in my state.

If my department was able to respond with every officer on our roster and the state sent 1000 troopers running code with choppers in the air we would never be able to prevent mass shootings before we could respond in time. An armed citizen could in a matter of the first few shots fired end the threat. Should at the very least be considered.

Glenn E. Meyer
07-18-2012, 10:02
From the awful real world and some simulations, if an rampage shooter walks into a large classroom, they will kill tens of folks before any police response can get to them.

If they continue through the building the death toll rises.

The only way to prevent losing this first wave, is if armed folks are immediately there.

Should the armed folks be competent - sure. Can civilians be as competent as police - sure (not posturing or knocking police). Tell me that a recon marine, going back to school, cannot be trusted with firearms usage.

One study found it took 11 phones and a half hour to sound the campus alert. Lots of time for the killer to wander through a large building with large lectures - and doors that cannot be blocked except with bodies.

writwing
07-18-2012, 18:39
As a trained and POST certified peace officer in state of Georgia, who also happens to live in a town with 30,000 college students, I stand by my initial statement.

So you can have a gun but others can't! :upeyes:

Misty02
07-18-2012, 21:03
As a peace officer I don't agree with the blanket of keeping them unarmed and allowing only the LE to deal with the issues. Does it keep the clusterfk potential down when LE respond? Maybe..

That being said how many officers at one time can you respond with at the scene of an active shooter while trying to figure out where an active shooter is among 30,000 students?

Keeping law abiding citizens from being able to protect themselves and others in a case of an active shooter is bass ackwards in my opinion.

I have issues with limiting law abiding citizens’ rights to protect themselves from a threat such as this, just my humble opinion. Not only have I been a law enforcement officer in a college town for years I am currently next to one of the largest universities in my state.

If my department was able to respond with every officer on our roster and the state sent 1000 troopers running code with choppers in the air we would never be able to prevent mass shootings before we could respond in time. An armed citizen could in a matter of the first few shots fired end the threat. Should at the very least be considered.

Thank you for your thoughts, officer. May you always be safe.
:wavey:

Glockworks
07-19-2012, 03:31
Oh yeah, worked real well at VT didn't it? And later at the same campus, a Chinese National male student sawed off the head of a female Chinese National student in the cafeteria while fellow students cowered and either watched or ran. He just had a knife by the way.

spcwes
07-19-2012, 06:38
Oh yeah, worked real well at VT didn't it? And later at the same campus, a Chinese National male student sawed off the head of a female Chinese National student in the cafeteria while fellow students cowered and either watched or ran. He just had a knife by the way.

Exactly what are you referring to when you say "worked real well at VT didn't it?" ?

RussP
07-19-2012, 10:11
Exactly what are you referring to when you say "worked real well at VT didn't it?" ?I'm curious, too...

Cubdriver
07-19-2012, 10:31
Exactly what are you referring to when you say "worked real well at VT didn't it?" ?

My guess would be that he's being sarcastic and referring to the no weapons policy.

-Pat

spcwes
07-19-2012, 12:27
My guess would be that he's being sarcastic and referring to the no weapons policy.

-Pat

Well it could go that way but it could also read into a room full of scared shatless folks watching another humans head being sawed off and not acting.

Either way it would have no bearing on how well anything worked.....

Cubdriver
07-19-2012, 12:42
Well, it would point out the 'effectiveness' (or, more precisely, LACK thereof) of the no weapons policies - the bad guys, who ignore them, were armed, and the good guys, who followed them, were not, and thus unable to intervene without great risk to themselves. (I wouldn't be inclined to bring fists to a knife fight.) That would seem to me to show quite clearly that they DON'T work.

-Pat

spcwes
07-19-2012, 12:44
Well, it would point out the 'effectiveness' (or, more precisely, LACK thereof) of the no weapons policies - the bad guys, who ignore them, were armed, and the good guys, who followed them, were not, and thus unable to intervene without great risk to themselves. (I wouldn't be inclined to bring fists to a knife fight.) That would seem to me to show quite clearly that they DON'T work.

-Pat

Good point

janice6
07-19-2012, 12:57
Licensing automobile drivers isn't a method of guaranteeing safety either.

Life, no guarantees.

Added: At least give some of us a chance.

Jagged
07-19-2012, 13:56
So, taking a university like VT with 28,000 students, how many would carry?

I know I certainly would. I was actually en route to downtown Blacksburg when our latest shooting incident occured. I skirted around campus because I was carrying at the time :upeyes:. I was going to buy a friend lunch who was taking his PhD quals that afternoon.

As a nearly 30 year old graduate student (and veteran to boot)... it really irritates me when people lump the entire college population into the 18-year-old-fresh-out-of-sheltered-existance category.

SCmasterblaster
07-19-2012, 14:09
A properly trained gun carrier is worth a lot on campus.

tomcon
07-19-2012, 14:11
If you can carry off campus it should be legal to carry on campus.

I have never understood how crossing an invisible line on the ground turns people into homicidal maniacs.

tomcon
07-19-2012, 14:48
I have never understood how crossing an invisible line on the ground turns people into homicidal maniacs.

Never mind, I forgot if you mention the Second Amendment, self-defense and your personal responsibility to both to most Liberals, you end up with a raving lunatic who will lie through their teeth and do whatever is necessary to prove their point.

At least this has been my experience when interacting with liberals.

skier92857
07-19-2012, 20:32
Don't forget about us ancillary staff on college campuses. A quick google says there are about 10,000 of us at the medical center alone (not counting general college employees), who with me have the misfortune of working on a college campus unarmed. Even if there was a traditional hospital weapons ban, we would still be in the wrong to have a weapon with us in our parked cars.

Guess how often we are a target of on-campus crime, even with a dedicated police and separate security force? Weekly or more often.

Obviously not allowing college students to carry when legally allowed is rubbish. I'm just trying to paint a larger picture here of how many individual's personal rights we are trampling, and what sort of a criminal buffet we have created.

spcwes
07-20-2012, 08:05
Don't forget about us ancillary staff on college campuses. A quick google says there are about 10,000 of us at the medical center alone (not counting general college employees), who with me have the misfortune of working on a college campus unarmed. Even if there was a traditional hospital weapons ban, we would still be in the wrong to have a weapon with us in our parked cars.

Guess how often we are a target of on-campus crime, even with a dedicated police and separate security force? Weekly or more often.

Obviously not allowing college students to carry when legally allowed is rubbish. I'm just trying to paint a larger picture here of how many individual's personal rights we are trampling, and what sort of a criminal buffet we have created.

Well this is a good point that even in the earlier posts was not hit on. A college with 30,000 students would have how man employees to take care of them?

mc1911
07-20-2012, 12:20
This type of thinking leaves people helpless in the face of violent criminal attack.

rmodel65
07-20-2012, 12:59
what are the chances of this http://www.torontosun.com/2012/07/20/batman-shooting-victim-just-missed-eaton-centre-gunfire

Breg0352
07-20-2012, 13:08
I went back to my Community College after spending a couple of years as a carpenter . . . by then I carried everywhere and I always felt safer with my handgun on campus. I saw Virginia Tech and Collumbine go down and being older, going back to school, it just made sense to me to carry. Locking my gun in my glove box some 600 meters from the class I was about to attend for an hour and a half didn't make much sense to me. If I were to go back to school again I would do it all over again . . . and thats the problem with these types of policies . . . one neglectful incident of printing in class with a libtard for a teacher or some young kid seeing your shirt pop up when you raise a hand to chime in during class and someone could be in serious trouble for practicing their right to self protection . . . I'm from NY we jump through hoops for BS with CCW all day every day so why not the extension onto school campuses . . . As if I believed in that red tape hoop jumping bull**** >.>

Breg0352
07-20-2012, 13:15
http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q533/Schauwn88/gunyeszonesign1.jpg