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Metal Angel
07-16-2012, 02:12
I was just thinking about it today, seems like there is a thread every couple months about what handgun/caliber the military should use as their sidearm. Seems like everyone argues for 9mm, .40smith, or .45acp... Why not 5.7mm? I know it's a tiny bullet, but it pierces armor- something the military could actually make use of. And it's not like any handgun caliber is much of a man stopper anyway, especially when hollow points are not an option. The lower recoil would be helpful to the smaller soldiers and "non-gun people" soldiers, and capacity is exceptional.

And my main motive- I want FiveseveNs and 5.7x28 to get cheaper :supergrin:

ParisArms
07-16-2012, 02:33
It was actually made for the military. The contest was a replacement caliber that could be fired from both a handgun and rifle with a minimum of 20 round capacity. The 5.7 beat HK's proposal but HK protested and the whole thing was scraped.

eyelikeglasses
07-16-2012, 05:57
I hear some of those high speed kinda guys have used them with great results out to 100 meters or so.

Decguns
07-16-2012, 08:52
Back in 1989-90, I was in on the NATO testing of the 5.7MM & the P90. The idea being the P90 was superior to the 9MM for gate guards and such. The round could penetrate body armor and deliver a hail of projectiles quite quickly. Recoil was light. The performance of the AP ammo on body armor and helmets was impressive. But no one was interested. The controls on the P90 were not intuitive. Years later, when we played with the 5-7 pistol, we were left scratching our heads as to the weird placement of the controls.

FN was trying to solve problem whith the 5.7 which no longer existed. Armies had left the submachinegun behind in favor of the assault rifle. If a gate guard required more punch than his M9, then he had an M16. Logistics really doomed the 5.7 for military service. The 9MM is the defacto World standard military cartridge. Everyone uses it. Keeping the 9MM proved a smart move when we invaded Iraq, and ammo was in short supply. We were able to purchase 9MM NATO locally from Israel and later the UAE.

As much as arm chair generals beat their chests about a new military cartridge, the fact is the 9MM is here to stay. It's easy to shoot, easy to train, cheap and available everywhere.

AK_Stick
07-16-2012, 21:20
5.7 doesn't really penetrate any real armor. The only stuff it goes through is soft, pistol only body armor.

That said, there's also AP ammo for 9mm and 40, 45 etc that performs similarly to 5.7. So if you're really concerned about body armor, why not stick with a normal caliber, and get the AP when/if you need it.



Lastly, just about everyone who's actually used a 5.7 first hand, seems to not be very impressed with the performance.

crazymoose
07-16-2012, 21:27
5.7 doesn't really penetrate any real armor. The only stuff it goes through is soft, pistol only body armor.

That said, there's also AP ammo for 9mm and 40, 45 etc that performs similarly to 5.7. So if you're really concerned about body armor, why not stick with a normal caliber, and get the AP when/if you need it.



Lastly, just about everyone who's actually used a 5.7 first hand, seems to not be very impressed with the performance.

Very true. The Russians have been doing some interesting work on 9x19 pistol and hot AP ammo combos. The Gsh-18 in particular I find mechanically very interesting:

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/rus/gsh-1-e.html

Foxtrotx1
07-16-2012, 21:51
The 5.7 may pierce soft armor, but that is all it does well.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

lunarspeak
07-16-2012, 22:42
ive shot the 5.7...nothing speciel....but i do believe your idea is flawed if by some chance in heck the 5.7 round and firearms were adopted by our armed forces id bet the prices would skyrocket

Metal Angel
07-16-2012, 23:24
ive shot the 5.7...nothing speciel....but i do believe your idea is flawed if by some chance in heck the 5.7 round and firearms were adopted by our armed forces id bet the prices would skyrocket

I disagree. The Berretta 92 is probably the best value combat handgun you can get. What other quality metal frame gun will run you less than 600 bones? The answer to that question is the CZ-75. What do these two firearms have in common besides high value quality? They are both widely used military firearms. How about the cartridge they are chambered in? Is it pretty expensive because the military hogs it all? Nope. It also happens to be the highest value cartridge you can get because of copious production due to military use.

Like you, I doubt the Five seveN will ever have the words "standard issue" in front of it, but if it did, it would come way down in price, and so would it's respective chambering.

Jim Watson
07-17-2012, 08:35
Years later, when we played with the 5-7 pistol, we were left scratching our heads as to the weird placement of the controls.

Amen or +11 or whatever the Internet World does for agreement these days.

I poo-poohed the idea to start with, but first saw one demonstrated and was prepared to be open minded.
Then I found the safety and lost all interest.

Sturmgewehre
07-17-2012, 08:44
I don't believe the 5.7 is a better solution as compared to the 9mm, .40 or .45 ACP. If our military used the P90, perhaps it would make a little more sense. From a Special Operations standpoint, I can see some interest in the caliber... but for general issue to troops, the 9mm is still the way to go, IMHO. All of our allies use it. Heck, even our enemies use it. It's already supported by countless manufacturers both in terms of ammo production and in weapons production.

The 5.7 and the 4.6x30 have a small foothold in the military/LEO communities with several countries using the P90 and fewer using the MP7... but for some reason it hasn't really boomed like I thought it might back in the early 2000's when NATO was looking for a PDW system. I don't know if it's the caliber as much as the concept of a PDW not gaining much momentum.

Shipwreck-The-Sequel
07-17-2012, 09:10
The P90 was really a middleground between a handgun and battle rifle. I'd rather have a P90 (if I was in the military) over a handgun for sure.

fnfalman
07-17-2012, 09:36
If I were to carry a carbine, then it'd be in 5.56mm. Same bulk, bigger and more powerful caliber. I can't believe I just said that about a 5.56mm round - powerful caliber.

TumblingFTW
07-17-2012, 14:52
I was just thinking about it today, seems like there is a thread every couple months about what handgun/caliber the military should use as their sidearm. Seems like everyone argues for 9mm, .40smith, or .45acp... Why not 5.7mm? I know it's a tiny bullet, but it pierces armor- something the military could actually make use of. And it's not like any handgun caliber is much of a man stopper anyway, especially when hollow points are not an option. The lower recoil would be helpful to the smaller soldiers and "non-gun people" soldiers, and capacity is exceptional.

And my main motive- I want FiveseveNs and 5.7x28 to get cheaper :supergrin:

You can thank H&K and their self interests for why the 5.7x28mm platform wasn't adopted by NATO. Everybody else wanted it. And for good reason.

It was actually made for the military. The contest was a replacement caliber that could be fired from both a handgun and rifle with a minimum of 20 round capacity. The 5.7 beat HK's proposal but HK protested and the whole thing was scraped.

Completely correct!

Back in 1989-90, I was in on the NATO testing of the 5.7MM & the P90. The idea being the P90 was superior to the 9MM for gate guards and such. The round could penetrate body armor and deliver a hail of projectiles quite quickly. Recoil was light. The performance of the AP ammo on body armor and helmets was impressive. But no one was interested. The controls on the P90 were not intuitive. Years later, when we played with the 5-7 pistol, we were left scratching our heads as to the weird placement of the controls.

FN was trying to solve problem whith the 5.7 which no longer existed. Armies had left the submachinegun behind in favor of the assault rifle. If a gate guard required more punch than his M9, then he had an M16. Logistics really doomed the 5.7 for military service. The 9MM is the defacto World standard military cartridge. Everyone uses it. Keeping the 9MM proved a smart move when we invaded Iraq, and ammo was in short supply. We were able to purchase 9MM NATO locally from Israel and later the UAE.

As much as arm chair generals beat their chests about a new military cartridge, the fact is the 9MM is here to stay. It's easy to shoot, easy to train, cheap and available everywhere.

Actually, H&K doomed the 5.7 for military service. NATO is concerned arm chair generals?

There is actually a very real use for a compact, high capacity, high rate of fire, armor penetrating, sub-machine gun, in close quarters combat. Lots of special forces around the world are using either the 5.7 or 4.6 and are very happy with it.


5.7 doesn't really penetrate any real armor. The only stuff it goes through is soft, pistol only body armor.

That said, there's also AP ammo for 9mm and 40, 45 etc that performs similarly to 5.7. So if you're really concerned about body armor, why not stick with a normal caliber, and get the AP when/if you need it.

Lastly, just about everyone who's actually used a 5.7 first hand, seems to not be very impressed with the performance.

5.7 penetrates the highest levels of soft armor (CRISAT or Level IIIa) out to 200m. It will also penetrate some hard armor with aftermarket ammunition.

Realistically speaking, there is no armor piercing armor ammo for 9, .40, and .45. And the ammo that has been tested has been shown to cause inferior tissue damage to the 5.7

And in regards to "everyone who's actually used a 5.7 first hand seems to not be very impressed", please provide documentation of those reports. Worldwide, the 5.7 platform continues to surge and recently in the U.S. sales of 5.7 have exploded.

This was taken directly from FNH's website:

Q: I’m having a hard time finding 5.7x28mm ammunition. Is there a shortage?

A: The SS195LF and the SS197SR are two types of 5.7x28mm ammunition distributed commercially in the U.S. They are both fully compatible with the FN Five-seveN® pistol and the FN PS90 carbine. During the past few months, the U.S. market has experienced intermittent shortages of both rounds due to an unexpected and overwhelming increase in sales of the Five-seveN and the PS90, as well as a nationwide shortage of ammunition in general. Production levels were recently increased and a new supply is expected to be available shortly. Please visit www.fnhusa.com or follow us on Facebook to receive future updates. In the meantime, we apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused and appreciate your patience while we work to resolve this issue

The 5.7 may pierce soft armor, but that is all it does well.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

Not that old tired link again.... *sigh*


His full title is Dr. Gary K. Roberts, DDS (note that he is a dentist, not a trauma surgeon). I am not aware of any credible independent source online that clearly acknowledges DocGKR as an authority on the subject of wound ballistics, let alone gunshot wounds in actual human bodies.

He spends a lot of time posting on the internet, and he definitely has a cult-like following on a few internet forums. He has certainly done extensive testing with bullets in ballistic gelatin, and some LE/military organizations have consulted him over the years, but that hardly puts him head-and-shoulders above the other individuals that are typically mentioned in these sorts of discussions. For example, a 28-year veteran of Houston, PD SWAT that I will mention later, who has actually shot people with guns (including the P90), and served three terms as president of the TTPOA (Texas Tactical Police Officers Association).

Furthermore, the individual in question (DocGKR) has not even tested any 5.7x28mm load introduced in the last 15-20 years. What he thinks about an ammo type not offered to civilians (SS190) or an ammo type discontinued 20 years ago (SS90) is utterly irrelevant to a discussion on current 5.7x28mm loads.

Not to mention, two days after the Fort Hood shooting occurred, this same individual was already touting the early media reports that said the killer was stopped by a female police officer who had been shot with 5.7x28mm rounds.

Of course, we now know that the early news reports were inaccurate and that is not what actually happened; despite her bravery, the female police officer in question was incapacitated (and nearly died) from a hit to the leg, and the killer was actually stopped by a second (male) police officer while she was lying on the ground severely wounded.

All of this despite the fact that DocGKR had never even tested either of the ammunition types used by the Fort Hood shooter (SS192, SS197SR); not to mention the misinformation campaign (with regards to this caliber) that he has been pushing for years on forums all over the internet.

More recently, he tried to discount one of EA's 5.7x28mm loads (which he has never even tested) by simply scrutinizing a blurry photo of it that he found on the internet. The man is clearly not impartial; he made up his mind on this caliber about 15 years ago when he shot gelatin with the SS90 prototype cartridge.

Anyway, you likely haven't read any of those (ancient) papers cited at the end of his article. Half of them discuss a 23-grain plastic-core prototype cartridge (SS90) that was discontinued 20 years ago. The two or three other papers on that list (discussing SS190) are irrelevant from the get-go, in light of the massive amount of verifiable information available on the caliber's performance in actual human bodies (as opposed to a simulant).

Papers aside, nothing else in that article was substantiated in any way. Even the picture in the post is extremely outdated (the projectile pictured is the SS90 prototype). Also, the statement that the 5.7x28mm performs "at best" like a .22 LR or .22 WMR is provably wrong and idiotic and further supports the popular opinion amongst 5.7x28mm owners, that Dr. Roberts is either heavily biased, or wholly ignorant on the subject, or a mixture of both.


As far as Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb and their comments on the efficacy of the 5.7x28mm platform; those two individuals have zero experience with the 5.7x28mm (either in testing or in shootings), so their opinions have been formed by what they have read and heard about the caliber; nothing more, nothing less.

Let's look at some actual verifiable accounts from people that have been in shootings with the P90 and see what they have to say:

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/arti ... spx?ID=309

I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon.

<snip>

The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets.

<snip>

If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.

-- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below)



http://warriorsos.blogspot.com/2010/10/ ... -wall.html

Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger."



http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tac ... firepower/

S.W.A.T. team commander Capt. Mohamed Lostan of the Passaic County Sheriff’s Dept. in NJ is a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the handgun and cartridge. “While our department issues .40-cal. pistols, our S.W.A.T. team is allowed to carry any handgun they want to use as long as they purchase it themselves and qualify with it, In fact, I was the first one on the team to carry the Five-seveN, although now several others do as well,” he continued. Lostan definitely knows his way around firearms. In addition to his 23 years with the sheriff’s department and current position he also served in the U.S. Army in the 3rd Division Recon Unit and the 82nd Airborne Division.

“I was so impressed by the 5.7×28mm cartridge used in the P90 that I asked permission for S.W.A.T. team members to be able to carry Five-seveN pistols if we purchased them on our own.”

Two more examples:

http://web.archive.org/web/200209030...c529800ad.html (Summary: Duluth, GA police with FN Five-seveN pistols shot and killed a man holed up in his garage shooting at them with a .357 Magnum revolver)

http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail829.htm (Summary: Sioux Falls, SD police officer with a P90 shot a man in the arm through a bedroom door and he dropped his weapon and surrendered)

The best known case involving U.S. police would still be the aforementioned shooting in Houston, TX, which is supported by the article from Sandy Wall, who noted that the SS190 bullet performed well (as confirmed by autopsy) and compared its performance to a 9x19mm 115-grain JHP +P+.


Amen or +11 or whatever the Internet World does for agreement these days.

I poo-poohed the idea to start with, but first saw one demonstrated and was prepared to be open minded.
Then I found the safety and lost all interest.

When drawn from the holster, the trigger finger (which should be pointing straight out) aligns perfectly with the safety. Manipulating the safety on the Five-seveN requires no adjustment of the grip, which can't be said for the majority of handguns out there (save for the Glocks of course).

For someone used to activating another safety system (1911) it will take a bit of practice to get used to, but when muscle memory is retrained, you will find your ability to draw, take the weapon off safe, and acquire your target is just as fast or faster than any other pistol platform on the market.


The P90 was really a middleground between a handgun and battle rifle. I'd rather have a P90 (if I was in the military) over a handgun for sure.

This guy gets it.

If I were to carry a carbine, then it'd be in 5.56mm. Same bulk, bigger and more powerful caliber. I can't believe I just said that about a 5.56mm round - powerful caliber.

On the battlefield, you need a full size rifle. I would prefer a .308 over a 5.56. In close quarters combat, you need something as compact as possible, as accurate as possible, as quiet as possible, and as little muzzle flash as possible. Armor piercing, high capacity, and high rate of fire are all bonuses. The 5.7 platform fits these criteria perfectly.

Those that would modify the 5.56 platform to a short barrel version find they are left with blinding muzzle flash, ear-splitting noise, aim affecting recoil, and muzzle energy figures very close to a PS90. That's right, with EA ammunition loaded in a PS90, there is only a few hundred ft-lbs of energy separating the PS90 from a short-barreled 5.56.. MINUS the noise and muzzle flash, and recoil.

fnfalman
07-17-2012, 15:04
On the battlefield, you need a full size rifle. I would prefer a .308 over a 5.56. In close quarters combat, you need something as compact as possible, as accurate as possible, as quiet as possible, and as little muzzle flash as possible. Armor piercing, high capacity, and high rate of fire are all bonuses. The 5.7 platform fits these criteria perfectly.

Those that would modify the 5.56 platform to a short barrel version find they are left with blinding muzzle flash, ear-splitting noise, aim affecting recoil, and muzzle energy figures very close to a PS90. That's right, with EA ammunition loaded in a PS90, there is only a few hundred ft-lbs of energy separating the PS90 from a short-barreled 5.56.. MINUS the noise and muzzle flash, and recoil.

For close quarter combat, I prefer a hand grenade through the window or door. Or shoot through the walls with my FAL.

The P90 sure looks cool with the Stargate troopers though.

Foxtrotx1
07-17-2012, 15:23
You can thank H&K and their self interests for why the 5.7x28mm platform wasn't adopted by NATO. Everybody else wanted it. And for good reason.



Completely correct!



Actually, H&K doomed the 5.7 for military service. NATO is concerned arm chair generals?

There is actually a very real use for a compact, high capacity, high rate of fire, armor penetrating, sub-machine gun, in close quarters combat. Lots of special forces around the world are using either the 5.7 or 4.6 and are very happy with it.




5.7 penetrates the highest levels of soft armor (CRISAT or Level IIIa) out to 200m. It will also penetrate some hard armor with aftermarket ammunition.

Realistically speaking, there is no armor piercing armor ammo for 9, .40, and .45. And the ammo that has been tested has been shown to cause inferior tissue damage to the 5.7

And in regards to "everyone who's actually used a 5.7 first hand seems to not be very impressed", please provide documentation of those reports. Worldwide, the 5.7 platform continues to surge and recently in the U.S. sales of 5.7 have exploded.

This was taken directly from FNH's website:

Q: I’m having a hard time finding 5.7x28mm ammunition. Is there a shortage?

A: The SS195LF and the SS197SR are two types of 5.7x28mm ammunition distributed commercially in the U.S. They are both fully compatible with the FN Five-seveN® pistol and the FN PS90 carbine. During the past few months, the U.S. market has experienced intermittent shortages of both rounds due to an unexpected and overwhelming increase in sales of the Five-seveN and the PS90, as well as a nationwide shortage of ammunition in general. Production levels were recently increased and a new supply is expected to be available shortly. Please visit www.fnhusa.com (http://www.fnhusa.com) or follow us on Facebook to receive future updates. In the meantime, we apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused and appreciate your patience while we work to resolve this issue



Not that old tired link again.... *sigh*


His full title is Dr. Gary K. Roberts, DDS (note that he is a dentist, not a trauma surgeon). I am not aware of any credible independent source online that clearly acknowledges DocGKR as an authority on the subject of wound ballistics, let alone gunshot wounds in actual human bodies.

He spends a lot of time posting on the internet, and he definitely has a cult-like following on a few internet forums. He has certainly done extensive testing with bullets in ballistic gelatin, and some LE/military organizations have consulted him over the years, but that hardly puts him head-and-shoulders above the other individuals that are typically mentioned in these sorts of discussions. For example, a 28-year veteran of Houston, PD SWAT that I will mention later, who has actually shot people with guns (including the P90), and served three terms as president of the TTPOA (Texas Tactical Police Officers Association).

Furthermore, the individual in question (DocGKR) has not even tested any 5.7x28mm load introduced in the last 15-20 years. What he thinks about an ammo type not offered to civilians (SS190) or an ammo type discontinued 20 years ago (SS90) is utterly irrelevant to a discussion on current 5.7x28mm loads.

Not to mention, two days after the Fort Hood shooting occurred, this same individual was already touting the early media reports that said the killer was stopped by a female police officer who had been shot with 5.7x28mm rounds.

Of course, we now know that the early news reports were inaccurate and that is not what actually happened; despite her bravery, the female police officer in question was incapacitated (and nearly died) from a hit to the leg, and the killer was actually stopped by a second (male) police officer while she was lying on the ground severely wounded.

All of this despite the fact that DocGKR had never even tested either of the ammunition types used by the Fort Hood shooter (SS192, SS197SR); not to mention the misinformation campaign (with regards to this caliber) that he has been pushing for years on forums all over the internet.

More recently, he tried to discount one of EA's 5.7x28mm loads (which he has never even tested) by simply scrutinizing a blurry photo of it that he found on the internet. The man is clearly not impartial; he made up his mind on this caliber about 15 years ago when he shot gelatin with the SS90 prototype cartridge.

Anyway, you likely haven't read any of those (ancient) papers cited at the end of his article. Half of them discuss a 23-grain plastic-core prototype cartridge (SS90) that was discontinued 20 years ago. The two or three other papers on that list (discussing SS190) are irrelevant from the get-go, in light of the massive amount of verifiable information available on the caliber's performance in actual human bodies (as opposed to a simulant).

Papers aside, nothing else in that article was substantiated in any way. Even the picture in the post is extremely outdated (the projectile pictured is the SS90 prototype). Also, the statement that the 5.7x28mm performs "at best" like a .22 LR or .22 WMR is provably wrong and idiotic and further supports the popular opinion amongst 5.7x28mm owners, that Dr. Roberts is either heavily biased, or wholly ignorant on the subject, or a mixture of both.


As far as Pat Rogers and Kyle Lamb and their comments on the efficacy of the 5.7x28mm platform; those two individuals have zero experience with the 5.7x28mm (either in testing or in shootings), so their opinions have been formed by what they have read and heard about the caliber; nothing more, nothing less.

Let's look at some actual verifiable accounts from people that have been in shootings with the P90 and see what they have to say:

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/arti ... spx?ID=309

I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon.

<snip>

The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets.

<snip>

If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.

-- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below)



http://warriorsos.blogspot.com/2010/10/ ... -wall.html

Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger."



http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tac ... firepower/

S.W.A.T. team commander Capt. Mohamed Lostan of the Passaic County Sheriff’s Dept. in NJ is a particularly enthusiastic supporter of the handgun and cartridge. “While our department issues .40-cal. pistols, our S.W.A.T. team is allowed to carry any handgun they want to use as long as they purchase it themselves and qualify with it, In fact, I was the first one on the team to carry the Five-seveN, although now several others do as well,” he continued. Lostan definitely knows his way around firearms. In addition to his 23 years with the sheriff’s department and current position he also served in the U.S. Army in the 3rd Division Recon Unit and the 82nd Airborne Division.

“I was so impressed by the 5.7×28mm cartridge used in the P90 that I asked permission for S.W.A.T. team members to be able to carry Five-seveN pistols if we purchased them on our own.”

Two more examples:

http://web.archive.org/web/200209030...c529800ad.html (Summary: Duluth, GA police with FN Five-seveN pistols shot and killed a man holed up in his garage shooting at them with a .357 Magnum revolver)

http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail829.htm (Summary: Sioux Falls, SD police officer with a P90 shot a man in the arm through a bedroom door and he dropped his weapon and surrendered)

The best known case involving U.S. police would still be the aforementioned shooting in Houston, TX, which is supported by the article from Sandy Wall, who noted that the SS190 bullet performed well (as confirmed by autopsy) and compared its performance to a 9x19mm 115-grain JHP +P+.




When drawn from the holster, the trigger finger (which should be pointing straight out) aligns perfectly with the safety. Manipulating the safety on the Five-seveN requires no adjustment of the grip, which can't be said for the majority of handguns out there (save for the Glocks of course).

For someone used to activating another safety system (1911) it will take a bit of practice to get used to, but when muscle memory is retrained, you will find your ability to draw, take the weapon off safe, and acquire your target is just as fast or faster than any other pistol platform on the market.




This guy gets it.



On the battlefield, you need a full size rifle. I would prefer a .308 over a 5.56. In close quarters combat, you need something as compact as possible, as accurate as possible, as quiet as possible, and as little muzzle flash as possible. Armor piercing, high capacity, and high rate of fire are all bonuses. The 5.7 platform fits these criteria perfectly.

Those that would modify the 5.56 platform to a short barrel version find they are left with blinding muzzle flash, ear-splitting noise, aim affecting recoil, and muzzle energy figures very close to a PS90. That's right, with EA ammunition loaded in a PS90, there is only a few hundred ft-lbs of energy separating the PS90 from a short-barreled 5.56.. MINUS the noise and muzzle flash, and recoil.

Good lord that's a lot of kool-aid!

EA, you mean this company?

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1342282

Shipwreck-The-Sequel
07-17-2012, 15:33
Great post, Tumbling!

Jim Watson
07-17-2012, 15:54
When drawn from the holster, the trigger finger (which should be pointing straight out) aligns perfectly with the safety. Manipulating the safety on the Five-seveN requires no adjustment of the grip, which can't be said for the majority of handguns out there (save for the Glocks of course).

For someone used to activating another safety system (1911) it will take a bit of practice to get used to, but when muscle memory is retrained, you will find your ability to draw, take the weapon off safe, and acquire your target is just as fast or faster than any other pistol platform on the market.

I get the idea. In fact I went through it with the P7 squeezecocker, probably the handiest of any gun outside the Glock and other Convulsive Response designs. But it was all P7 or all Other Gun. I could not put in any time with a DA or SAO and maintain any proficiency with the P7. I was not willing to dedicate my life to the P7 so I sold it and am content with my 1911, PM&P, Sig-Sauer, and revolver.

There is a red hot Five-seveN afficianado hereabouts. He even whined until we let him shoot it in IDPA. But he has no facility with the draw and unsafe, he is slow into action with it. Are there better shooters with one? No doubt, but I am not encouraged by what I see here.

Metal Angel
07-17-2012, 16:25
Wow, thanks for such an extensive informative post Tumbling!

I just read a little on the Fort Hood report. The lady officer who tried to stop the shooter had her femur SHATTERED by the 5.7mm. To those who compare the 5.7 to a .22mag... I highly doubt a .22mag could shatter such a ridgid bone. I wonder if a 9mm could even do that.

Fnfalman-
A 5.56 and 5.7 are almost identical in size, and by the time you shorten an AR15 (or whatever) to the length of a P90, you lose all the velocity advantage of the 5.56. In fact, going off of BBTIs website, the short barrel 5.56 comes down to about 22-2300 fps, which is exactly what the 5.7 is. And, now you have a huge deafening fireball coming out the end of a bucking rifle.

No experience either way here, I don't fight for a living, but it sure seems like the P90 would be a better option in that scenario.

Metal Angel
07-17-2012, 16:30
I get the idea. In fact I went through it with the P7 squeezecocker, probably the handiest of any gun outside the Glock and other Convulsive Response designs. But it was all P7 or all Other Gun. I could not put in any time with a DA or SAO and maintain any proficiency with the P7. I was not willing to dedicate my life to the P7 so I sold it and am content with my 1911, PM&P, Sig-Sauer, and revolver.

There is a red hot Five-seveN afficianado hereabouts. He even whined until we let him shoot it in IDPA. But he has no facility with the draw and unsafe, he is slow into action with it. Are there better shooters with one? No doubt, but I am not encouraged by what I see here.
Honestly I don't care one way or another about the firearm itself... It's cool and I'd like to have one but I would be just as happy to have a Glock chambered in 5.7x28.

AK_Stick
07-17-2012, 17:00
Wow, thanks for such an extensive informative post Tumbling!

I just read a little on the Fort Hood report. The lady officer who tried to stop the shooter had her femur SHATTERED by the 5.7mm. To those who compare the 5.7 to a .22mag... I highly doubt a .22mag could shatter such a ridgid bone. I wonder if a 9mm could even do that.

What do you think a 9mm to the femur is going to do bounce off? :upeyes:


Fnfalman-
A 5.56 and 5.7 are almost identical in size, and by the time you shorten an AR15 (or whatever) to the length of a P90, you lose all the velocity advantage of the 5.56. In fact, going off of BBTIs website, the short barrel 5.56 comes down to about 22-2300 fps, which is exactly what the 5.7 is. And, now you have a huge deafening fireball coming out the end of a bucking rifle.

No experience either way here, I don't fight for a living, but it sure seems like the P90 would be a better option in that scenario.

How short are you going on the barrel and what loads to get those results?

Most of the PSD M-4's I saw when working VIP's by the SS and .mil were in the area of 10.5-12.5 and throwing 55 grain at close to 3K fps.

Even the 75 grain out of a 12.5 is still going 2400-2450 fps.


There is quite a substantial difference between 5.7 and 5.56 in terms of terminal effectiveness. And thats part of the reason that the P90 and 5.7 has never really gone anywhere.

Metal Angel
07-17-2012, 17:59
What do you think a 9mm to the femur is going to do bounce off? :upeyes:

Nope. But the muscles in your thigh are dense and thick, so the bullet will expend a lot of energy just getting to the femur. Once it's there, what will it do? Pop a 9mm hole through? Deflect? Shatter it? I don't know. That's why I said "I wonder". I do know that pistol calibers don't do well against bone sim.

How short are you going on the barrel and what loads to get those results?

Most of the PSD M-4's I saw when working VIP's by the SS and .mil were in the area of 10.5-12.5 and throwing 55 grain at close to 3K fps.

Even the 75 grain out of a 12.5 is still going 2400-2450 fps.


There is quite a substantial difference between 5.7 and 5.56 in terms of terminal effectiveness. And thats part of the reason that the P90 and 5.7 has never really gone anywhere.
Allowing a 7.5" AR15 into the same compact PDW class as a P90 is being very generous. The P90 only has a 9" barrel and it's a bullpup. So no, I am not considering your 12.5" M4 the same category as a P90. I'm looking at barrel lengths 7-8", 45-55gr. I'm well aware that 5.56 is a substantial round out of a long barrel.

fnfalman
07-17-2012, 18:21
Allowing a 7.5" AR15 into the same compact PDW class as a P90 is being very generous. The P90 only has a 9" barrel and it's a bullpup. So no, I am not considering your 12.5" M4 the same category as a P90. I'm looking at barrel lengths 7-8", 45-55gr. I'm well aware that 5.56 is a substantial round out of a long barrel.

What's the length of a collapsed stock short barreled M16 compared to the P90?

Even if the P90 is shorter, so what? I'm not into the bodyguard business, concealment isn't an issue with me. People have been using M4s for CQB nearly ten years or more now. They have no problem with maneuvering inside houses and hallways.

vafish
07-17-2012, 18:27
.....

The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets.

<snip>

....


You spent all that time typing that to tell us there is one verifiable shooting and in that one case the 5.7 performed about like a 9mm 115 +P+?

:rofl:

And they say Glock owners drink Kool Aide. What the heck do 5.7 owners drink?

The 5.7 will never see widespread use in the American military.

Even non-combat soldiers get an M4 these days eliminating the need for a "PDW" like the P90.

Handguns are secondary weapons and the military is not going to dump the 9mm.

Metal Angel
07-17-2012, 18:33
You spent all that time typing that to tell us there is one verifiable shooting and in that one case the 5.7 performed about like a 9mm 115 +P+?

:rofl:

And they say Glock owners drink Kool Aide. What the heck do 5.7 owners drink?

The point is it can penetrate armor and then do what a 9mm +p+ hp can do. 9mm can only do one or the other. No 9mm load will do both.

vafish
07-17-2012, 18:35
The point is it can penetrate armor and then do what a 9mm +p+ hp can do. 9mm can only do one or the other. No 9mm load will do both.


That's making quite a leap, in the case cited it did not penetrate any armor and then perform like a 9MM +P+. It preformed like a 9MM +P+ without penetrating any armor. It will most likely expend a lot of velocity and energy getting through the armor, at which point it will not perform like a 9MM +P+.

AK_Stick
07-17-2012, 18:36
What's the length of a collapsed stock short barreled M16 compared to the P90?

Even if the P90 is shorter, so what? I'm not into the bodyguard business, concealment isn't an issue with me. People have been using M4s for CQB nearly ten years or more now. They have no problem with maneuvering inside houses and hallways.


The P90, is roughly 10 inches shorter than a comparable barreled AR.

P90 19.7 OAL, 10.4 inch barrel
M4 29.5 OAL, 10.5 inch barrel.

But the 10.5 5.56, will still throw a heavier bullet faster, and with better terminal ballistics.

Which, is pretty much the reason people moved away from sub guns.

TumblingFTW
07-17-2012, 18:56
There is a red hot Five-seveN afficianado hereabouts. He even whined until we let him shoot it in IDPA. But he has no facility with the draw and unsafe, he is slow into action with it. Are there better shooters with one? No doubt, but I am not encouraged by what I see here.

Before I put my gun away every night, I do one fast draw which includes; pulling my shirt up, clearing the holster, disengaging the safety (I have never missed it yet), and attaining a defensive stance ready to fire. I can do all of this in well under a second. I practice at the range occasionally (every other month?) and have shot in a couple IDPA events, but I am far from hardcore.


Wow, thanks for such an extensive informative post Tumbling!

I just read a little on the Fort Hood report. The lady officer who tried to stop the shooter had her femur SHATTERED by the 5.7mm. To those who compare the 5.7 to a .22mag... I highly doubt a .22mag could shatter such a ridgid bone. I wonder if a 9mm could even do that.

While shattering her femur into a hundred pieces, it also severed an artery which nearly killed her. She was losing consciousness soon after her engagement with Hasan was over.

I don't know what a 9mm would have done against the strongest bone in the human body, but I know what some of the weakest 5.7 did. A high velocity projectile can be very destructive. There were many, many broken bones suffered at Ford Hood on that day; hips, arms, knees, femurs, skulls etc.

On a side note, I have read many autopsy accounts of 9mm glancing off of bones. Of the slower common handgun calibers, I think the .45 (180-230 gr) does a better job breaking bones than the 9mm. There is a trade off at some point between high velocity and high grain. I either want super fast, or super big. Regarding tissue damage this is all a moot point, because all common handgun calibers inflict similar tissue damage. If you want to stop the threat you have to hit the CNS.

Honestly I don't care one way or another about the firearm itself... It's cool and I'd like to have one but I would be just as happy to have a Glock chambered in 5.7x28.

Oh wouldn't that be a happy day? Ammo prices would surely come down then..

What do you think a 9mm to the femur is going to do bounce off? :upeyes:


9mm rounds do and have bounced off ribs. I have read several autopsy reports of that happening.

Metal Angel
07-17-2012, 19:15
The P90, is roughly 10 inches shorter than a comparable barreled AR.

P90 19.7 OAL, 10.4 inch barrel
M4 29.5 OAL, 10.5 inch barrel.

But the 10.5 5.56, will still throw a heavier bullet faster, and with better terminal ballistics.

Which, is pretty much the reason people moved away from sub guns.

And the M82 will throw an even heavier bullet even faster. What's your point? If we are not sticking to the same size firearm then this debate is worthless.

AK_Stick
07-17-2012, 19:59
And the M82 will throw an even heavier bullet even faster. What's your point? If we are not sticking to the same size firearm then this debate is worthless.


My point, was to answer fnfalman's question on the OAL difference between an SBR and a P90. And to show why the niche the P90 was made for, was filled with other guns.


Simply being small, doesn't make it the best candidate.

fnfalman
07-18-2012, 07:37
9mm rounds do and have bounced off ribs. I have read several autopsy reports of that happening.

And .357 Mag have also been reported not penetrating skull at close range but followed the curvature of the skull and exited out the back with nothing more than skin damage.

Or practically cut a chick LAPD's heart in half (she recovered).

There's a video of some Islamic insurgent getting shot with machine gun (5.56mm or 7.62mm) and the round skipped off his body.

TumblingFTW
07-18-2012, 14:29
And .357 Mag have also been reported not penetrating skull at close range but followed the curvature of the skull and exited out the back with nothing more than skin damage.

Or practically cut a chick LAPD's heart in half (she recovered).

There's a video of some Islamic insurgent getting shot with machine gun (5.56mm or 7.62mm) and the round skipped off his body.

Be careful what you read on the internet...

An autopsy revealed once that a suicide with 44mag entered one side of the skull and didn't exit the other...

The point is, all handgun rounds will fail at times to do what they should do. The Five-seveN has proven (with the weakest ammo) that it can break the strongest bone in the human body, and break it severely.

Speaking of be careful what you read on the internet.. there is a mythical story floating around about a shooting with the P90 where bullets were found right below the skin...

Here is what SS190 (most likely what the officers were using) will do to back to back to back Level IIIa panels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npaqgBsCxkk&feature=channel&list=UL

...but supposedly human skin and ribs are the 5.7's Achilles's heel? Be careful what you read on the internet.

Metal Angel
07-18-2012, 18:38
Be careful what you read on the internet...

An autopsy revealed once that a suicide with 44mag entered one side of the skull and didn't exit the other...

The point is, all handgun rounds will fail at times to do what they should do. The Five-seveN has proven (with the weakest ammo) that it can break the strongest bone in the human body, and break it severely.

Speaking of be careful what you read on the internet.. there is a mythical story floating around about a shooting with the P90 where bullets were found right below the skin...

Here is what SS190 (most likely what the officers were using) will do to back to back to back Level IIIa panels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npaqgBsCxkk&feature=channel&list=UL

...but supposedly human skin and ribs are the 5.7's Achilles's heel? Be careful what you read on the internet.

I'm a little confused about that first shot... Is he saying the bullet went all the way through the clay and water jugs, bounced off the book and then back through the water jugs and lodged in the clay?

Foxtrotx1
07-18-2012, 21:25
Be careful what you read on the internet...

An autopsy revealed once that a suicide with 44mag entered one side of the skull and didn't exit the other...

The point is, all handgun rounds will fail at times to do what they should do. The Five-seveN has proven (with the weakest ammo) that it can break the strongest bone in the human body, and break it severely.

Speaking of be careful what you read on the internet.. there is a mythical story floating around about a shooting with the P90 where bullets were found right below the skin...

Here is what SS190 (most likely what the officers were using) will do to back to back to back Level IIIa panels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npaqgBsCxkk&feature=channel&list=UL

...but supposedly human skin and ribs are the 5.7's Achilles's heel? Be careful what you read on the internet.

Kevlar isn't hard. It defeats projectiles in an entirely different manner than bone.

Don't get confused on that.

TumblingFTW
07-18-2012, 21:43
I'm a little confused about that first shot... Is he saying the bullet went all the way through the clay and water jugs, bounced off the book and then back through the water jugs and lodged in the clay?

No, it went through 2 level IIIa vest panels, then a 25lb block of clay, and bounced off the phone book. Most likely what happened was the SS190 started tumbling end over end (as it should) when it entered the 25lb block of clay, and then started to rise. Here is another video of SS190 being shot into gelatin after passing through a IIIa vest. You will see how the 5.7 round tumbles. And in this video it rose up through the top of the block. That might be what happened in the first shot.

I call this a bad case of heartburn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPW-oRJFKNA


In the second part of the video, he shoots clean through 3 Level IIIa vests and then a jug of water. It appears the bullet missed the rest of the jugs to the left.

SS190 is a nasty bullet, but EA's S4M or T6 is nastier. S4M makes a HUGE cavity in ballistic gel or clay after it penetrates IIIa armor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxBFtilO_C4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrSypp272UU&feature=channel&list=UL

TumblingFTW
07-18-2012, 22:09
Kevlar isn't hard. It defeats projectiles in an entirely different manner than bone.

Don't get confused on that.

I understand, but the 5.7 defeats body armor through speed and shape. Both of those things contribute to devastating affect against hard objects as well.

http://i.imgur.com/HHps0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gcR1D.jpg

Foxtrotx1
07-20-2012, 08:05
I understand, but the 5.7 defeats body armor through speed and shape. Both of those things contribute to devastating affect against hard objects as well.

http://i.imgur.com/HHps0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gcR1D.jpg

Those pics tell me so much. Specifically what projectile, caliber and hardness of steel being used :upeyes:

DeLo
07-20-2012, 08:20
I hear some of those high speed kinda guys have used them with great results out to 100 meters or so.
I was getting great results with my friend's at 50m just last saturday. Shoots just as flat as my 10mm at that distance.

Sturmgewehre
07-20-2012, 08:23
You spent all that time typing that to tell us there is one verifiable shooting and in that one case the 5.7 performed about like a 9mm 115 +P+?

:rofl:

And they say Glock owners drink Kool Aide. What the heck do 5.7 owners drink?

The 5.7 will never see widespread use in the American military.

Even non-combat soldiers get an M4 these days eliminating the need for a "PDW" like the P90.

Handguns are secondary weapons and the military is not going to dump the 9mm.
Tumbling travels every single gun board I've ever encountered posting about nothing but the 5.7. It's crazy, no matter how obscure the board may be he finds new 5.7 posts as soon as the search engines index them and he shows up defending the 5.7 like he owns stock in FNH. He's made 18 posts here in the last year, 17 of which are about the 5.7.

If you want obscure knowledge about the 5.7, he would seem to be your go-to guy. He lives and breathes the caliber.

Howdy Tumbling, how's your 5.7 doing today? :wavey:

Sturmgewehre
07-20-2012, 08:36
I was getting great results with my friend's at 50m just last saturday. Shoots just as flat as my 10mm at that distance.
Given the speed of the projectile, it should shoot even flatter than a 10mm.

SigFTW
07-20-2012, 09:34
I got to shoot the FN 5.7 once, it was fun (any gun is fun to shoot) and the round was cool looking however not very practical to me. Also, the FN seems very over priced for a Tupperware gun.:whistling:

Metal Angel
07-20-2012, 11:57
Tumbling travels every single gun board I've ever encountered posting about nothing but the 5.7. It's crazy, no matter how obscure the board may be he finds new 5.7 posts as soon as the search engines index them and he shows up defending the 5.7 like he owns stock in FNH. He's made 18 posts here in the last year, 17 of which are about the 5.7.

If you want obscure knowledge about the 5.7, he would seem to be your go-to guy. He lives and breathes the caliber.

Howdy Tumbling, how's your 5.7 doing today? :wavey:
I defend my carry guns too, but I'm mostly just BSing. At least Tumbling has a huge bank of info to back up his defense. I see nothing wrong with what he is doing. The 5.7 doesn't have the hugely accessible history of use that 9mm or 45acp do, so it's harder for the average gun guy to find facts about its performance. He is just bringing his (apparently) extensive research to the table.

Metal Angel
07-20-2012, 12:00
Also, the FN seems very over priced for a Tupperware gun.:whistling:

I agree with this. Every time I pick one up it feels so cheap. I know it's not, and the fragile feel it has is just from the liberal usage of polymer to cut weight (which I think is great). But I bet if they sold more, or had some competition, it could be a $500 dollar firearm.

Sturmgewehre
07-20-2012, 13:04
I defend my carry guns too, but I'm mostly just BSing. At least Tumbling has a huge bank of info to back up his defense. I see nothing wrong with what he is doing. The 5.7 doesn't have the hugely accessible history of use that 9mm or 45acp do, so it's harder for the average gun guy to find facts about its performance. He is just bringing his (apparently) extensive research to the table.

I agree, that's why I said he lives and breaths the caliber and he's your "go-to" guy if you want info on the 5.7.

Sturmgewehre
07-20-2012, 13:10
However, I will also add that Tumbling represents the opinion of one person. There are just as many people, perhaps more, that don't find the 5.7 performance to be adequate when compared to more mainstream calibers. There's a reason FNH is the primary manufacturer of both firearms and ammo and why you don't see many other manufacturers jumping on the bandwagon. If it had power, penetration, expansion, coupled with capacity and light weight that surpassed other calibers out there, it would be a run away success with everyone trying to get a piece of the pie. As it stands it has a fairly modest following.

I don't think it's a useless caliber, I have a PS90 SBR and love the handiness of the gun. It's also 100% reliable and carries 50 rounds. It's a neat intermediate range weapon.

Buffman
07-21-2012, 00:10
I'm a little confused about that first shot... Is he saying the bullet went all the way through the clay and water jugs, bounced off the book and then back through the water jugs and lodged in the clay?

Sorry. I get ahead of myself at times. There was no damage to that book prior to that shot. Yet when I went to survey the damage, the bullet had definately penetrated all the way through the clay block, and impacted the book. It was then found inside the entrance hole on the right hand side..

Those tests were mainly to look at panel penetration, and used the clay to keep water off the panels. The second shot, I was getting tired of mashing the clay back together, so I opted for the jug instead.

If you want to look at bone damage, look up some of my pork shoulder tests :)

Buffman
07-21-2012, 00:18
There's a reason FNH is the primary manufacturer of both firearms and ammo and why you don't see many other manufacturers jumping on the bandwagon. .

FNH merely manufactures the brass of now. Starline manufactures brass but does not sell commercially. Fiocchi loads the SS197SR, and now Federal loads a 40gr TMJ load under the American Eagle branding

professorpinki
07-21-2012, 09:25
The mainstream military would have to change over everything: training for both armorers and users, ammunition, and parts lines. It would have to purchase the weapons, too. And then, it would have to convince people that the round worked on top of that: both those in the military and those in the public.

Basically, it would have to offer superior and undeniable proof that it is in every way superior and at a comparable price range to the current standard issue M9. I simply don't see the 5.7 and its pistol brother doing that, particularly when almost everyone is carrying some sort of a rifle to begin with.

Foxtrotx1
07-21-2012, 23:43
FNH merely manufactures the brass of now. Starline manufactures brass but does not sell commercially. Fiocchi loads the SS197SR, and now Federal loads a 40gr TMJ load under the American Eagle branding

That is hardly a major following.

Metal Angel
07-22-2012, 03:34
That's making quite a leap, in the case cited it did not penetrate any armor and then perform like a 9MM +P+. It preformed like a 9MM +P+ without penetrating any armor. It will most likely expend a lot of velocity and energy getting through the armor, at which point it will not perform like a 9MM +P+.
My mistake, that was quite a leap. But don't you think the military would like to have a FMJ load that performs like a hollowpoint? Since they can't use HPs, the FMJ 5.7 that rips a similar hole as a 9mm +p+ HP sounds pretty desirable.

AK_Stick
07-22-2012, 14:04
My mistake, that was quite a leap. But don't you think the military would like to have a FMJ load that performs like a hollowpoint? Since they can't use HPs, the FMJ 5.7 that rips a similar hole as a 9mm +p+ HP sounds pretty desirable.




I don't know that the 5.7 "performs like a hollow point" or "rips holes similar to 9mm +p+"

But I do know that the 5.7 and 4.6 have both been tried by the .mil, and neither were adopted. So that tends to tell me something about the performance of the system.

USMC03Grunt
07-22-2012, 14:59
So the 5.7 is designed to defeat soft body armor. Wanna guess how many Muj I seen wearing any armor during my last tour? Try zero!

Buffman
07-22-2012, 23:33
That is hardly a major following.


Never said it was. Just stating that another manufacturer has picked up loading ammo for it.

Ruggles
07-23-2012, 17:37
The 5.7 never fails to get word feuds going :)

I like the, caliber, handgun and the PS90, owned both the handgun and the PS90 but sold both to consolidate calibers and manual of arms (1911s and ARs in this case) but I never like the safety on the Five seveN, weird placement for sure IMO.

I think both the handgun and the carbine have real world uses. The handgun is a joy to shoot and no recoil whatsoever, light weight even fully loaded, no real force required to work the slide and a nice light trigger, quick reset for follow up shots etc. A great HD gun for many people.

The PS90 offers the same traits in a larger package for HD. Very easy to use indoors as well.

The caliber is a capable one IMO, on par with a 9mm which while it is not a powerhouse is adequate in the SD role.

I would feel fine using either as a defensive handgun, I know many disagree with this but then I guess that is why we have so many choices in firearms today :)

VA27
07-23-2012, 20:13
Chamber the Glock in 5.7 and I'll look at it. Chamber a PPK sized gun in it and I'll buy one.

FilesCreekMafia
07-23-2012, 20:36
Just my opinion from a side by side test. My cuz has a 5.7 he bought a few months back and he has been sorely dissapointed with it. We did penetration tests into phone books soaked in water approx 18" thick. The 5.7 did not penetrate any further than my PMR30 with him using the SS192? Blue polymer tipped ammo. I was using the Remington 33 grain Vtip in the PMR. I know all the KelTec haters are gonna say no comparison KelTecs are junk. I admit the 5.7 is a much more solid feeling and well built gun than the PMR. But from my experience my PMR is more accurate, more reliable and far, far less expensive than the 5.7. $319 vs $1100. All you 5.7 guys go ahead and call me an idiot yada yada. For my money its no contest.


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Metal Angel
07-23-2012, 22:15
Chamber the Glock in 5.7 and I'll look at it. Chamber a PPK sized gun in it and I'll buy one. I agree with this!

rainman33
07-23-2012, 22:43
Chamber the Glock in 5.7 and I'll look at it. Chamber a PPK sized gun in it and I'll buy one.

Give me any 5.7 chambered handgun with a better placed safety, or none at all, and a price tag comparable to a Glock, and I'll definitely take one.

pugman
07-24-2012, 05:56
Look...face it....the 5.7 IS the gun of the future.

I mean they use it in the alternate universe in Fringe and BSG so you know its here to stay and WILL be adapted by the military (and least the Airforce)

arclight610
07-24-2012, 12:09
"Main point of selling Belgian Five Seven pistol is extreme price of weapon and cartridge.

Belgian Five Seven is weapon of man who wears expensive Italian fascist suit of hand sewing, drive huge expensive Nazi Mercedes of AMG shop, sail on massive yacht to Greek islands. I think you get picture. Belgian Five Seven is weapon that says is no such thing as concern of money.

For man without expensive suit, big black Mercedes, and massive yacht, Belgian Five Seven is for pretending of being rich like black gangster of American city with gold chains of low quality and jewels of colored glass. When you explain use of Belgian Five Seven pistol is only for shoot man with bullet vest with cartridge illegal to civilian, this man has nuclear rage. Whole identity of this man is spent in pretend pistol shows he is rich. Is very amuse.

For rest of world there is 9 millimeter of Luger which is same wound for cost less."

JuneyBooney
07-25-2012, 03:44
I hear some of those high speed kinda guys have used them with great results out to 100 meters or so.

What I like about them is low recoil and less cleaning of the firearm required. The round will kill someone if the shot is in the right place..like other rounds..but the 5.7 can fire numerous second shots with ease.

Buffman
07-25-2012, 17:36
more reliable and far, far less expensive than the 5.7. $319 vs $1100. All you 5.7 guys go ahead and call me an idiot yada yada. For my money its no contest.


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More reliable. I don't think FNH had issues with keyholing bullets, and had to do barrel replacements.. :)

Still have yet to see a PMR30 for under $500 because of availability...

The .22 WMR does penetrate quite a bit, no doubt about that. However good luck getting it to go through soft armor out of the pistol :)

FilesCreekMafia
07-26-2012, 13:04
More reliable. I don't think FNH had issues with keyholing bullets, and had to do barrel replacements.. :)

Still have yet to see a PMR30 for under $500 because of availability...

The .22 WMR does penetrate quite a bit, no doubt about that. However good luck getting it to go through soft armor out of the pistol :)

I paid $319 out the door for my PMR, no keyholing I have a later production model. Im not downing the 5.7 I actually like the gun. All I am saying is that he has had alot more issues with the 5.7 vs my PMR. As far as penetration goes remember the good ammo is not available to civillians for the 5.7. I seen firsthand penetration on pc monitors, an xbox360, and phone books and it was very close for both guns. IMO they are both "fun" guns not sure I would use either for SD, thats what my Glocks are for.


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AK_Stick
07-26-2012, 13:42
More reliable. I don't think FNH had issues with keyholing bullets, and had to do barrel replacements.. :)

Still have yet to see a PMR30 for under $500 because of availability...

The .22 WMR does penetrate quite a bit, no doubt about that. However good luck getting it to go through soft armor out of the pistol :)

Well the only way you can get a 5.7 to go through soft armor is to special order ammo off the internet, so its not like its a huge difference in available ammo performance.