Texas GOP rejects critical thinking skills. Really. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Gunhaver
07-16-2012, 05:57
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html

Those darn critical thinking skills are just a leftist plot to take over your children's minds with... critical thinking skills.

Bren
07-16-2012, 06:29
That does make me sad and embarrassed. Then again, I don't think Republicans are the good guys, just the lesser of evils.

Woofie
07-16-2012, 07:53
Does anyone actually believe that the majority of GOP leadership is conservative? They're just the party of deprivation of indivdual rights, but from a religious, "traditional" angle, instead of the normal deprivation of individual rights from a nanny state angle we're used to from the Democrats.

Guss
07-16-2012, 08:59
Yet they made an exception on the critical thinking for the Creationists.

High-Gear
07-16-2012, 11:13
I think some of our state BOE members migrated south.

muscogee
07-16-2012, 11:32
Yet they made an exception on the critical thinking for the Creationists.

Controversial Theories – We support objective teaching and equal treatment of all sides of scientific theories. We believe theories such as life origins and environmental change should be taught as challengeable scientific theories subject to change as new data is produced. Teachers and students should be able to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of these theories openly and without fear of retribution or discrimination of any kind.

Yep.

The state of education in Texas under the Republicans has become an impossible unworkable mess. They have cut funding while dealing with an increasing population and increasing demands on the schools. In some places teachers have to work after hours selling ice cream or hamburgers to raise money for their school.

Woofie
07-16-2012, 11:58
Well why the hell do they need funding? Ain't no reason to go buying brand new editions of the Bible each year! That's settled science!

Brucev
07-16-2012, 12:15
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html

Those darn critical thinking skills are just a leftist plot to take over your children's minds with... critical thinking skills.

"Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority." Etc., etc. Can't see how this is a problem. Children belong to the parents... not the state nor surrogates of the state. Don't blame parents on bit for voting for those candidates who will reflect their own POV, especially as relates to the education of their children.

Vic Hays
07-16-2012, 12:52
"Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority." Etc., etc. Can't see how this is a problem. Children belong to the parents... not the state nor surrogates of the state. Don't blame parents on bit for voting for those candidates who will reflect their own POV, especially as relates to the education of their children.

It used to be that socialist and communist states taught like this. Now the public schools in the USA teach this stuff. The schools and the state already think they own the children.

High-Gear
07-16-2012, 13:01
I'm waiting for snowbird to somehow link this story to the 19,000 muslim attacks since 9/11. :)

Woofie
07-16-2012, 13:33
"Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority." Etc., etc. Can't see how this is a problem. Children belong to the parents... not the state nor surrogates of the state. Don't blame parents on bit for voting for those candidates who will reflect their own POV, especially as relates to the education of their children.

http://i.qkme.me/3oldi5.jpg

Bren
07-16-2012, 13:56
Yep.

The state of education in Texas under the Republicans has become an impossible unworkable mess. They have cut funding while dealing with an increasing population and increasing demands on the schools. In some places teachers have to work after hours selling ice cream or hamburgers to raise money for their school.

I have to say, it will be years before we undo the damage that Kentucky's rare republican governor did in a single term back in 2004-2008. He was the first in 30 years or so and he instantly reorganized most of the executive branch into an unworkable mess.

I will probably never vote Republican again in state politics, just as I would NEVER vote Democrat in national politics. Anyhow, the Democrats are the more pro-gun party in KY state government.

Bren
07-16-2012, 13:57
Can't see how this is a problem. Children belong to the parents... not the state nor surrogates of the state. Don't blame parents on bit for voting for those candidates who will reflect their own POV, especially as relates to the education of their children.

I blame them for being primitive, ignorant and superstitious, not for voting for like-minded politicians.

Gunhaver
07-16-2012, 15:19
"Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority." Etc., etc. Can't see how this is a problem. Children belong to the parents... not the state nor surrogates of the state. Don't blame parents on bit for voting for those candidates who will reflect their own POV, especially as relates to the education of their children.

Yep, children belong to their parents. As in they are property. So the parents may honor kill them, refuse life saving medical treatment on religious grounds, sexually and physically abuse them or fill their heads with any crazy ideas that they please. Can't see how that's a problem.

muscogee
07-16-2012, 15:33
"Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority." Etc., etc. Can't see how this is a problem. Children belong to the parents... not the state nor surrogates of the state. Don't blame parents on bit for voting for those candidates who will reflect their own POV, especially as relates to the education of their children.

There are several problems. First, our knowledge base is increasing so fast that it's impossible for any one person to keep up with it. The average parent can't even begin to keep up.

Second, most parents went to school many years ago so they know what people knew then. To make matters worse, many of them are too egotistical and insecure to admit they don't know everything and maybe the teacher knows more than they did. My children knew more at every level in their education than I did. I see that as a good thing.

Third, most politicians haven't spent a week in the classroom, much less 20 years. They know absolutely nothing about what happens in the classroom. They know nothing about learning and nothing about nearly anything outside their area of expertise. It wasn't until a few years ago that an Oklahoma state politician had to have a high school education even though the teachers to whom they were dictating terms had Bachelor's Degrees at the least.

Fourth, the great unwashed has bought into the absurd notion that schools should be run like a business. Business can dictate the type and quality of materials they use. You can't send a random assortment of materials to Boeing and tell them to make a 747 out of it. If you send Boeing inferior quality metal or electronics, Boeing will send it back. Public schools, on the other hand, have to take whatever they get sent and turn them into potential college graduates, even though there aren't enough jobs for the current graduates. Businesses can raise prices of they aren't being adequately compensated. Public schools are constantly told to do more with less by people who have no concept of what happens in the classroom.

Finally, the main purpose of the modern public school is to avoid a lawsuit. That means the curriculum must be bland and inoffensive to anyone. Of course, that's impossible because there are too many people of differing creeds and religions with chips on their shoulders. Before someone blames the teachers, we have much better teachers than we deserve. It's amazing we have any at all. It's amazing children learn anything in today's schools. I wish there was a solution, but as long as everyone feels his or her opinion is as valid as anyone else's opinion, things will only continue as they are. Uneducated people with no teaching experience will continue to have undue influence on our educational system.

Gunhaver
07-16-2012, 16:18
There are several problems. First, our knowledge base is increasing so fast that it's impossible for any one person to keep up with it. The average parent can't even begin to keep up.

Second, most parents went to school many years ago so they know what people knew then. To make matters worse, many of them are too egotistical and insecure to admit they don't know everything and maybe the teacher knows more than they did. My children knew more at every level in their education than I did. I see that as a good thing.

Third, most politicians haven't spent a week in the classroom, much less 20 years. They know absolutely nothing about what happens in the classroom. They know nothing about learning and nothing about nearly anything outside their area of expertise. It wasn't until a few years ago that an Oklahoma state politician had to have a high school education even though the teachers to whom they were dictating terms had Bachelor's Degrees at the least.

Fourth, the great unwashed has bought into the absurd notion that schools should be run like a business. Business can dictate the type and quality of materials they use. You can't send a random assortment of materials to Boeing and tell them to make a 747 out of it. If you send Boeing inferior quality metal or electronics, Boeing will send it back. Public schools, on the other hand, have to take whatever they get sent and turn them into potential college graduates, even though there aren't enough jobs for the current graduates. Businesses can raise prices of they aren't being adequately compensated. Public schools are constantly told to do more with less by people who have no concept of what happens in the classroom.

Finally, the main purpose of the modern public school is to avoid a lawsuit. That means the curriculum must be bland and inoffensive to anyone. Of course, that's impossible because there are too many people of differing creeds and religions with chips on their shoulders. Before someone blames the teachers, we have much better teachers than we deserve. It's amazing we have any at all. It's amazing children learn anything in today's schools. I wish there was a solution, but as long as everyone feels his or her opinion is as valid as anyone else's opinion, things will only continue as they are. Uneducated people with no teaching experience will continue to have undue influence on our educational system.

I've never really seen the problem laid out so well but I've known these things on a subconscious level which is why my girlfriend and I home school her kids. Atheist homeschoolers, whoda thunkit?

High-Gear
07-16-2012, 17:07
There are several problems. First, our knowledge base is increasing so fast that it's impossible for any one person to keep up with it. The average parent can't even begin to keep up.

Second, most parents went to school many years ago so they know what people knew then. To make matters worse, many of them are too egotistical and insecure to admit they don't know everything and maybe the teacher knows more than they did. My children knew more at every level in their education than I did. I see that as a good thing.

Third, most politicians haven't spent a week in the classroom, much less 20 years. They know absolutely nothing about what happens in the classroom. They know nothing about learning and nothing about nearly anything outside their area of expertise. It wasn't until a few years ago that an Oklahoma state politician had to have a high school education even though the teachers to whom they were dictating terms had Bachelor's Degrees at the least.

Fourth, the great unwashed has bought into the absurd notion that schools should be run like a business. Business can dictate the type and quality of materials they use. You can't send a random assortment of materials to Boeing and tell them to make a 747 out of it. If you send Boeing inferior quality metal or electronics, Boeing will send it back. Public schools, on the other hand, have to take whatever they get sent and turn them into potential college graduates, even though there aren't enough jobs for the current graduates. Businesses can raise prices of they aren't being adequately compensated. Public schools are constantly told to do more with less by people who have no concept of what happens in the classroom.

Finally, the main purpose of the modern public school is to avoid a lawsuit. That means the curriculum must be bland and inoffensive to anyone. Of course, that's impossible because there are too many people of differing creeds and religions with chips on their shoulders. Before someone blames the teachers, we have much better teachers than we deserve. It's amazing we have any at all. It's amazing children learn anything in today's schools. I wish there was a solution, but as long as everyone feels his or her opinion is as valid as anyone else's opinion, things will only continue as they are. Uneducated people with no teaching experience will continue to have undue influence on our educational system.

Thank you! My wife has taught at an inner city school for 14 years, (the last 8 with only a 2% cola and no steps or track pay increase) and we appreciate someone understanding the problems with public education.

void *
07-17-2012, 10:04
That does make me sad and embarrassed. Then again, I don't think Republicans are the good guys, just the lesser of evils.

I think there's a good argument that both parties need most people to lack critical thinking skills.

Chronos
07-22-2012, 09:51
Unless you live in an incredibly rare, exceptional district, I regard it as borderline child abuse to send kids to a public school. The first lesson they'll be taught is that learning is incredibly boring, and that thinking ahead or outside the box is wrong. Imagine the literal brain damage this will cause after spending a decade of incredibly important developmental years in that kind of an environment. The kid will pay severely for the lack of real development appropriate to today's world for the rest of his life.

High-Gear
07-22-2012, 10:16
Unless you live in an incredibly rare, exceptional district, I regard it as borderline child abuse to send kids to a public school. The first lesson they'll be taught is that learning is incredibly boring, and that thinking ahead or outside the box is wrong. Imagine the literal brain damage this will cause after spending a decade of incredibly important developmental years in that kind of an environment. The kid will pay severely for the lack of real development appropriate to today's world for the rest of his life.

You base this on what exactly? Literal brain damage? Child abuse? What are you talking about? :rofl:

Brucev
07-22-2012, 11:20
http://i.qkme.me/3oldi5.jpg

The issue is trust. Parents have a obligation to provide and care for their children. Parents have a responsibility to raise their children appropriately. Parents have both an obligation and responsibility to wisely decide regarding their children interacting with other adults, even if those adults should happen to be educators, etc. Now, if you as a parent do not consider that you have such obligation, responsibilities to act in the best interest of your children, then your children will have to suffer the consequences of your own failure to act. Nevertheless, other responsible parents will do what is in the best interest of their children without any regard for what might be your opinion. :wavey:

Brucev
07-22-2012, 11:27
Yep, children belong to their parents. As in they are property. So the parents may honor kill them, refuse life saving medical treatment on religious grounds, sexually and physically abuse them or fill their heads with any crazy ideas that they please. Can't see how that's a problem.

Ah... no. Children belong to the parents not as a chattel, etc. but in the sense that the parents are the ones who birthed the children, are raising the children and bear the full cost of providing for the children. The parents are best positioned to determine what is in the best interest of their own children. Such determinations cannot be appropriately made by even the most well-intentioned state agency. Otherwise, you end up with children being taught that per-marital sex and homosexuality is normative, that values are relative, etc., etc., etc. No rational or reasonable man can affirm the consequences of such post-modern thinking.

muscogee
07-22-2012, 12:16
The parents are best positioned to determine what is in the best interest of their own children.

Not always. Some parents raise their children to become suicide bombers because they think that's what God wants. Some raise their daughters to become chattel because the Bible says so. Kids bring some crazy ideas to school with them that they got from their parents. Many parents don't want their kids to be educated or think. they want their children to agree with them. The more dysfunctional the parents are the more likely they are to demand blind obedience and become outraged by anything else. These people often have a problem with public schools. Socrates was executed because he taught his students to think and ask questions.

Brucev
07-22-2012, 12:32
[QUOTE=muscogee;19202353]There are several problems. First, our knowledge base is increasing, etc., etc. The referenced decision is not about the knowledge base.

Second, most parents... etc., etc. Again, the referenced decision is not about what the parents knew, know, etc.

Third, most politicians... etc., etc. The referenced decision is not about the politicians, etc. And... you are not alone in having no use for ignorant politicians who want to play teacher... without actually doing the job of a teacher.

Fourth, the great unwashed has bought into the absurd notion that schools should be run like a business..., etc., etc. Again, the referenced decision was not about how schools should be run or if they should be run as businesses, etc. And... you are not alone in considering that the idea of running any school as a business without merit.

Finally, the main purpose of the modern public school is to avoid a lawsuit. That means the curriculum must be bland and inoffensive to anyone. Of course, that's impossible because there are too many people of differing creeds and religions with chips on their shoulders. Before someone blames the teachers, we have much better teachers than we deserve. It's amazing we have any at all. It's amazing children learn anything in today's schools. I wish there was a solution, but as long as everyone feels his or her opinion is as valid as anyone else's opinion, things will only continue as they are. Uneducated people with no teaching experience will continue to have undue influence on our educational system. I sympathize with the plight of current teachers in the public school system. Without question the system as its results have been greatly damaged by the sometimes well-intentioned ignorance and sometimes by the actually hostile actions of politicians, community members and even parents.

As has been stated, the referenced decision was not about how the multiplicity of problems faced in the local classroom by teachers seeking to do a good job, etc. The referenced decision was very clear... ""Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority." This is not about teaching reading, writing and arithmetic. This is about the use of the educational process to press a social and political agenda.

High-Gear
07-22-2012, 14:45
BruceV,

In other words you would have them learn the three R's (readin', ritin', and rithmatic) and leave all of the thinking for themselves behind? We don't want people to evaluate an argument on its merits, they just might have their own opinion. We can't have that now can we?

Does it strike anyone else odd that the Republican party wants the next generation (at least in Texas) not to be able to think for themselves? Don't busy yourself thinking too much, we'll do that for you. How better to control people?

Geko45
07-22-2012, 15:56
I work in K-12 public education. I won't elaborate to much as that would be inappropriate on the internet. I will say that (although I don't work in a classroom setting) I have experienced organized calls to prayer by senior management during work hours at departmental functions.

muscogee
07-22-2012, 16:53
As has been stated, the referenced decision was not about how the multiplicity of problems faced in the local classroom by teachers seeking to do a good job, etc. The referenced decision was very clear... ""Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority." This is not about teaching reading, writing and arithmetic. This is about the use of the educational process to press a social and political agenda.

This paragraph is the reason people like you should not be involved in these decisions. You simply do not know what you're talking about (e.g., higher order thinking skills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_order_thinking_skills), mastery learning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastery_learning)) the question is do we teach students to memorize, or do we teach them to think? If you want your children to agree with you then you teach them to memorize and not think. If all students can do is memorize than they are obsolete. The cheapest computer made can store, retrieve, and manipulate information quicker and more accurately than the smartest human that ever lived. The thing computers can't do is think. Computers are not capable of considering whether their answers are right or wrong, or why they answers might be wright or wrong. As rapidly as the knowledge base is expanding, students need to be able to do more than memorize to survive. Among other things, they need to be able to understand what they read on the internet and decide if it makes sense or not. Unfortunately, many of their parents can't teach them that because they can't do that either. This is not meant as a personal attack. It's simply a statement of the problem. Do you want students to think, even if they might disagree with you?

Kingarthurhk
07-22-2012, 19:07
It used to be that socialist and communist states taught like this. Now the public schools in the USA teach this stuff. The schools and the state already think they own the children.

Now, with Obamacare, they think they own us as well.

Kingarthurhk
07-22-2012, 19:10
I work in K-12 public education. I won't elaborate to much as that would be inappropriate on the internet. I will say that (although I don't work in a classroom setting) I have experienced organized calls to prayer by senior management during work hours at departmental functions.

That seems odd for Houston. I thought Houston would be pretty liberal about most things given how metropolitan it is. Houston has an openly lesbian mayor that looks like Bill Clinton as a woman, and Quan L X running around trying to be the local Al Sharpton.

Kentak
07-22-2012, 20:18
Ironically, it is *exactly* HOTS that allows individuals to critically evaluate simplistic political slogans, sound bites, platitudes and come to their own conclusions regarding their validity.

Kentak
07-22-2012, 20:36
"Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority." Etc., etc. Can't see how this is a problem. Children belong to the parents... not the state nor surrogates of the state. Don't blame parents on bit for voting for those candidates who will reflect their own POV, especially as relates to the education of their children.

Thank goodness my "fixed beliefs" about all sorts of topics have changed and evolved and improved since my parents told me there was a Santa Claus. Thank goodness for Higher Order Thinking Skills. Please name individuals who have made substantial contributions to their own and humankind's success and advancement without using the higher order thinking skills of their innate intelligence? And, yes, these skills can be nurtured and learned through appropriate classroom techniques.

Since you don't trust public schools (fair enough), I'll ask:

What level order of thinking skills do you think the exclusive private schools teach students? Rote dumb memorization and regurgitation?

Kentak
07-22-2012, 20:45
It used to be that socialist and communist states taught like this. Now the public schools in the USA teach this stuff. The schools and the state already think they own the children.

No, you're wrong. Totalitarian systems do not teach critical thinking. They teach uncritical acceptance of the party line.

I spent a career in public education and I have plenty of criticism for its shortcomings, but the view I so often read here of a monolithic liberal propaganda machine is not based on the day-to-day workings of the vast majority of schools in this country.

Brucev
07-22-2012, 20:54
BruceV,

In other words you would have them learn the three R's (readin', ritin', and rithmatic) and leave all of the thinking for themselves behind? We don't want people to evaluate an argument on its merits, they just might have their own opinion. We can't have that now can we?

Does it strike anyone else odd that the Republican party wants the next generation (at least in Texas) not to be able to think for themselves? Don't busy yourself thinking too much, we'll do that for you. How better to control people?

Let children learn reading, writing and arithmetic, etc. As to hots... i.e., values clarification, outcome based education repackaged as critical thinking, etc., screw it. It is nothing more than a left-wing tool to advance their own social and political agenda.

Brucev
07-22-2012, 21:07
This paragraph is the reason people like you should not be involved in these decisions. You simply do not know what you're talking about (e.g., higher order thinking skills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_order_thinking_skills), mastery learning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastery_learning)) the question is do we teach students to memorize, or do we teach them to think? If you want your children to agree with you then you teach them to memorize and not think. If all students can do is memorize than they are obsolete. The cheapest computer made can store, retrieve, and manipulate information quicker and more accurately than the smartest human that ever lived. The thing computers can't do is think. Computers are not capable of considering whether their answers are right or wrong, or why they answers might be wright or wrong. As rapidly as the knowledge base is expanding, students need to be able to do more than memorize to survive. Among other things, they need to be able to understand what they read on the internet and decide if it makes sense or not. Unfortunately, many of their parents can't teach them that because they can't do that either. This is not meant as a personal attack. It's simply a statement of the problem. Do you want students to think, even if they might disagree with you?

It may not suit you, but educational process is to important to be left up to educators. For educators, its only a job. For parents, it is their children. It's that simple. If educators want the support of parents to improve the system, then they must work to gain that support. It will not be given otherwise.

If you want to teach right and wrong, go to seminary. As a teacher it is not your job to teach values and morals.

As to the whining about critical thinking, etc., the decision earlier referenced reflects a lack of confidence in those leading the educational process at the class room level as well as those who do the management/administration. That is perfectly understandable.

Brucev
07-22-2012, 21:12
Thank goodness my "fixed beliefs" about all sorts of topics have changed and evolved and improved since my parents told me there was a Santa Claus. Thank goodness for Higher Order Thinking Skills. Please name individuals who have made substantial contributions to their own and humankind's success and advancement without using the higher order thinking skills of their innate intelligence? And, yes, these skills can be nurtured and learned through appropriate classroom techniques.

Since you don't trust public schools (fair enough), I'll ask:

What level order of thinking skills do you think the exclusive private schools teach students? Rote dumb memorization and regurgitation?

What level of thinking skills do exclusive private schools teach students? Most likely what suits their customer base. It is doubtful that these schools teach values clarification or employ outcome based education. etc. to push a left-wing liberal social and political agenda.

Kentak
07-22-2012, 22:07
What level of thinking skills do exclusive private schools teach students? Most likely what suits their customer base. It is doubtful that these schools teach values clarification or employ outcome based education. etc. to push a left-wing liberal social and political agenda.

Of course, and that is as it should be. Just as "public" schools are diverse and not monolithic, the same is true of "private" schools. Obviously, those private schools that are church-based will include religious teachings along with traditional academic subjects. There are private schools for kids with special needs and/or special talents. And, so on.

The schools I was referring to are the somewhat exclusive preparatory schools, generally expensive, and often chosen by well educated and professional parents. These parents expect academic excellence, a broad-based curriculum, and the teaching of the skills needed to prepare their children for college and careers in business, the arts, and the professions.

Such academic excellence and preparation always requires the development of higher order thinking skills. And, yes, students are encouraged to think critically, independently, and challenge dogmatic notions from all sources. I have a nephew who attended such a school from elementary through high school. He went on to earn an MBA from a top business school, and has a very nice career going working for a major automobile company. His education went way beyond reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic.

Animal Mother
07-23-2012, 00:33
It may not suit you, but educational process is to important to be left up to educators. This is as ridiculous a statement as saying medicine is too important to be left up to doctors.
For educators, its only a job. For parents, it is their children. And if parents want the best for their children, they should entrust them to qualified professionals instead of random chance.
It's that simple. If educators want the support of parents to improve the system, then they must work to gain that support. It will not be given otherwise. The problem is that parents frequently support the teaching of their beliefs or preferences, rather than anything that can be demonstrated to be objectively true.
If you want to teach right and wrong, go to seminary. As a teacher it is not your job to teach values and morals. It is their job to teach critical thinking and abstract reasoning, which appears to be what you inexplicably oppose.
As to the whining about critical thinking, etc., the decision earlier referenced reflects a lack of confidence in those leading the educational process at the class room level as well as those who do the management/administration. That is perfectly understandable.What is the cause of that lack of confidence? Is it failings among the groups named or simply their failing to adhere to the conditions some would choose to impose?

muscogee
07-23-2012, 08:01
It may not suit you, but educational process is to important to be left up to educators. For educators, its only a job.
You couldn't be more wrong. Once again, you demonstrate your complete misunderstanding of what modern teaching involves. Most teachers care deeply about about their students learning to cope with a difficult ever changing world. Many parents don't.

For parents, it is their children. It's that simple. If educators want the support of parents to improve the system, then they must work to gain that support. It will not be given otherwise.
You've got that backwards. It's your children. If you want your children to learn you should support the teachers.

If you want to teach right and wrong, go to seminary. As a teacher it is not your job to teach values and morals. You haven't thought that through. Schools have to teach students to get along. Otherwise it wold be chaos. My wife had a grade school student say she wanted to, "get naked and have sex with the devil". Should a school teacher let that go or teach right from wrong? It turned out the student had totally misunderstood something her mother had said. Young kids do that. IMO, teachers should correct them when that happens. Do you think that is outside the scope of the public schools?

As to the whining about critical thinking, etc., the decision earlier referenced reflects a lack of confidence in those leading the educational process at the class room level as well as those who do the management/administration. That is perfectly understandable.

It's more a matter of anti-intellectualism. My grandparents didn't have much education but they valued education and wanted their children to have as much as they could get. Many parents didn't do well in the public education system and have chips on their shoulders about it. These parents are ignorant (i.e., uninformed). and their children grow up ignorant because their parents can't teach them to be any different. Their children come to school with a hostile attitude abut learning or succeeding ins school. I have seen brilliant students refuse to learn. Should the schools try to break this cycle of willful perpetual ignorance or let it continue?

Schabesbert
07-23-2012, 08:29
My wife had a grade school student say she wanted to, "get naked and have sex with the devil".
Your wife taught Monica Lewinski? :supergrin: