Saturday Night Special/Junk Guns [Archive] - Glock Talk

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nastytrigger
07-16-2012, 17:11
I'm not calling any gun junk, but I was looking at the definition of a Saturday Night Special. Main guns I was reading about were the companies: Bryco, Raven, Davis, Sundance, and Lorcin.

Now, they say that 'junk guns' are inexpensive and made of inferior materials. Crime in low income areas have made the stigma of these cheap guns too.

Not to say these weapons are junk, but what about Hi-Point, Kel-Tec, Bersa, Phoenix, Jimenez, Cobra, and some derringers. Even major companies have made cheaper/inexpensive pistols, but there has been legislation on them too?

I'm not bashing these guns (they are less expensive pistol options), nor do I think any gun should be banned, but why were certain companies singled out?

I also understand that most of the Saturday Night Special manufacturers were in/around Los Angeles ("Ring of Fire"). I'm sure that figured in.

elde
07-16-2012, 17:18
Kel-Tec and Bersa don't even belong in this thread. And arguably neither does Taurus.

SNS guns IMO have to do with pot metal frames and blowback actions. (Pot Metal = primarily zinc)

bac1023
07-16-2012, 17:18
If they're real cheap and made of pot metal, I'd call them Saturday night specials.

garya1961
07-16-2012, 17:24
Never owned one but I wouldn't call a Hi Point junk , cheap yes but from what I have read dependable and faily accurate. I have been tempted to buy one and if they made one in 22 lr I would. I also have heard good things about the Bersa 380 but never owned one of these either.
I own three Kel Tecs and they aren't nothing to brag about but are fun little guns to shoot and would get you out of a jam if needed.'I wouldn't own one of the pot metal guns if you paid me to take it.

nastytrigger
07-16-2012, 17:27
Kel-Tec and Bersa don't even belong in this thread. And arguably neither does Taurus.

SNS guns IMO have to do with ferrous metal frames and blowback actions. (Ferrous Metal = primarily zinc)

Zinc was a big question of mine. Any current manufacture guns use zinc, or zinc alloy?

I agree, I threw in the names Kel-Tec and Bersa just based on price point. Like I said, I'm not bashing any manufacturer. I have high praise for Kel-Tec (carry a P-3AT) and Taurus (owned a Taurus 851 Protector).

I have seen/heard people call Kel-Tec and Taurus junk, for example, and was wondering since they're lower tier in price, what is the difference in a Saturday Night Special vs. lower tier.

elde
07-16-2012, 17:42
Yes, there are still a few zinc framed guns out there. I'm no expert on the subject but I'm sure someone will come along shortly with more information. Incidentally, I apologize for my ititial post describing zinc as a ferrous metal - it most definitely is non-ferrous. That's what I get for attempting to respond too fast.

Berto
07-16-2012, 19:47
Jimenez and Cobra (formerly Davis) were zinc alloy framed guns. Even the Walther P22 uses cast Zinc alloy for the slide.....it seems to be more common on rimfire/polymer pistols since they are relatively low stress shooters.
Most SNS pistols really weren't designed to be used much beyond a few boxes of ammo, but just because the gun uses zinc castings doesn't mean it's disposable either, as some decently durable guns can have that material these days- High Points use the stuff, but many here find them reliable and durable enough.

bac1023
07-16-2012, 19:55
Zinc was a big question of mine. Any current manufacture guns use zinc, or zinc alloy?



I believe Hi-Points have zinc alloy slides.

I know a magnet doesn't stick, that's for sure.

The_Gun_Guru
07-16-2012, 21:00
Kel-Tec and Bersa don't even belong in this thread. And arguably neither does Taurus.

SNS guns IMO have to do with pot metal frames and blowback actions. (Pot Metal = primarily zinc)

If you hadn't said it I would have!!!!!:wavey:

I have several SNS guns and they are JUNK!!! Very unreliable and cheaply made.


It's ok OP....you don't need to apologize here.....we are mostly Republicans, NOT demoCRAPS.


TGG

hogship
07-16-2012, 21:25
Saturday night special is whatever liberalism defines it. If some handguns were banned, the term would be redefined to include the next in line! It's part of the liberal agenda.

SNS is something that is needed. Those who frequent this forum probably wouldn't buy one for self defense.....but there are those who do, because the low price doesn't exclude them from defending themselves.

ooc

arclight610
07-16-2012, 21:50
It's not just zinc. The alloy has to meet a minimum yield strength and melting point.

RJ's Guns
07-16-2012, 21:52
I think that inexpensive handguns serve a very valuable purpose. Some people cannot afford to pay several hundred dollars for a handgun. Are handguns only for the rich, are not poor people entitled to protect themselves with a handgun? Anti-second amendment types love to demonize guns by calling them “Saturday Night Specials.” I refuse to buy into that propaganda.

RJ

countrygun
07-16-2012, 22:04
Based on a price point of a little over $200 what could you possibly expect from a double stack .380? Especially one called a "CZ - 83"?:dunno:





:whistling:

bac1023
07-17-2012, 04:03
It's not just zinc. The alloy has to meet a minimum yield strength and melting point.

Very true

vafish
07-17-2012, 04:54
Saturday night special is whatever liberalism defines it. If some handguns were banned, the term would be redefined to include the next in line! It's part of the liberal agenda.

SNS is something that is needed. Those who frequent this forum probably wouldn't buy one for self defense.....but there are those who do, because the low price doesn't exclude them from defending themselves.

ooc

This.

Saturday night special is a derogatory term used by antigunners to try and divide and conquer gun owners.

We shouldn't even be using the term.

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Bob Hafler
07-17-2012, 05:18
I think to often many gun owners who won more expensive brands get confused with the cheap and inexpensive guns. The truth is guns like the Bersa Thunder and the Kel Tec P3at and the P3at clone LCP serve a useful purpose for many gun owners everyday. This you must spend $400 to $500+ for a good reliable SD pistol is falicy.

As RJ says not everyone can afford the higher priced pistols, while others know they don't have to spend big money when they really don't have to for what is basically a tool that is going to get dinged up and most people will never see or even know about. Some of the problems I hear some of these more expensive .380's having I've never experienced with my Kel Tec P3at and I have not always treated it so kindly.

BobbyT
07-17-2012, 05:49
"Saturday Night Special" has a particularly racist gun control origin.

Even Wikipedia, that PC bastion, contains both the phrase's etymology ("N-town Saturday Night", yes really) and intent (keep "certain types" from having arms).

NDCent
07-17-2012, 05:53
Raven .25 would be a good example.

SigFTW
07-17-2012, 06:28
SNS are guns made out of plastic :tongueout:

Bren
07-17-2012, 06:32
I'm not calling any gun junk, but I was looking at the definition of a Saturday Night Special. Main guns I was reading about were the companies: Bryco, Raven, Davis, Sundance, and Lorcin.

Now, they say that 'junk guns' are inexpensive and made of inferior materials. Crime in low income areas have made the stigma of these cheap guns too.

Not to say these weapons are junk, but what about Hi-Point, Kel-Tec, Bersa, Phoenix, Jimenez, Cobra, and some derringers. Even major companies have made cheaper/inexpensive pistols, but there has been legislation on them too?

I'm not bashing these guns (they are less expensive pistol options), nor do I think any gun should be banned, but why were certain companies singled out?

I also understand that most of the Saturday Night Special manufacturers were in/around Los Angeles ("Ring of Fire"). I'm sure that figured in.

Poor people need to defend themselves too - in fact, they need it a LOT more than rich people.

Thanks for playing into a scam started by the anti-gun movement.

Bilbo Bagins
07-17-2012, 07:10
Glock Talk has a SNS forum in the Gun Club section. Some avid gun collecters like to add a few SNS guns to their collections. I have a good friend of mine who collects H&R, Iver Johnson and Rohm revolvers. He also has Sigs, H&K, and Colts but SNS revolvers is a thing he like to do. They are beat ugly some with heavy trigger pulls but all are effective. Both Ronald Reagan and Robert Kennedy were both shot with cheap .22 revolvers.

As to cheap pistols, I told the story a few times on GT about an old lady who stopped two burglars with a .25 jennings. One was dead at the scene and one was wounded and lived only because he quickly gave up. This lady did not have a lot of money and was one of those typical old folks that refuse to leave when their neighborhood gets bad.

Anyway out of all the old SNS pistols, I find the original Jennings, with some TLC, can be attractive, reliable little guns. You can usually buy them used for $100 or less. If you like guns and like to tinker...why not?

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/021_2_.jpg

failsafe
07-17-2012, 07:41
I have a FIE Titan, 25 cal..I bought it used in the mid '70's..It is considered a junker, but it shoots very well..You can find a used one for a hundred bucks or so..
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa96/litenlarry/DSC00549.jpg

MrMurphy
07-17-2012, 08:10
Agreed.

Not everyone has a ton of money. Set up a friend once with a 12 gauge NEF and a stock saddle and bag of rounds. Total cost? $85. Might only be one shot, but 1 shot of 00 Buck in the right spot can stop a lot of things.

Cheap pistols are not a new idea, Belgium, Spain and Germany were well known for making a wide variety of inexpensive pieces of varying degrees of actual function.

"Ruby" pistols from Spain were made by half a dozen or so Spanish/Basque gunmakers, always low cost clones, usually of a Colt 1903 or similar, or S&W revolvers. At one point, they armed most of the French army during WW1 when there was a severe pistol shortage (and everything else shortage). Germany had Arminius and several other brands, and Belgium had dozens of 'no name' brands that would fairly reliably go bang, but not cost much.

glock_19guy1983
07-17-2012, 08:34
No need to buy garbage guns when you can get a high quality gun for well under $400. Police trade in S&W mod 10s are easily found under $250. Ill take a beat up smith over brand new taurus garbage any day of the week.

fnfalman
07-17-2012, 09:32
No need to buy garbage guns when you can get a high quality gun for well under $400. Police trade in S&W mod 10s are easily found under $250. Ill take a beat up smith over brand new taurus garbage any day of the week.

Good for you. You can afford a $250 gun. Guess what? Others would have to decide whether or not to buy a $50 gun or feeding their kids.

countrygun
07-17-2012, 09:39
No need to buy garbage guns when you can get a high quality gun for well under $400. Police trade in S&W mod 10s are easily found under $250. Ill take a beat up smith over brand new taurus garbage any day of the week.



Between the wife and I we have 5 Taurus handguns and never a bobble out of any of them. We have our own 25 yd range and I think we'd notice if there were problems.

Bilbo Bagins
07-17-2012, 11:27
No need to buy garbage guns when you can get a high quality gun for well under $400. Police trade in S&W mod 10s are easily found under $250. Ill take a beat up smith over brand new taurus garbage any day of the week.

2002 called, they want their gun prices back....:supergrin:

I hate to say it but the days of used S&W and Colt revolvers selling for around $200 are over. That line about buying a cheap used S&W revolver has been used on gun forums for over a decade.

If for some strange reason there was a sub $250 used S&W revolver, in decent condition, in a gun store, they are snatched up quick so its not like a poor person even has time to scrimp and save the money to get one. It would be pure luck. Unless its beat up and in pretty bad shape I have never seen a >$250 S&W revolver stay on a used gun shelf for more than 48 hours.

Most Sell for over $250 and up.

glock_19guy1983
07-17-2012, 11:42
2002 called, they want their gun prices back....:supergrin:

I hate to say it but the days of used S&W and Colt revolvers selling for around $200 are over. That line about buying a cheap used S&W revolver has been used on gun forums for over a decade.

If for some strange reason there was a sub $250 used S&W revolver, in decent condition, in a gun store, they are snatched up quick so its not like a poor person even has time to scrimp and save the money to get one. It would be pure luck. Unless its beat up and in pretty bad shape I have never seen a >$250 S&W revolver stay on a used gun shelf for more than 48 hours.

Most Sell for over $250 and up.

Buds gun shop has them for $269 right now. I see model 10s and the older m&ps for under 250 fairly often in pawn shops around here. They often arent pretty but still very serviceable.

hoghunter82
07-17-2012, 11:46
I've been so disappointed in the performance (or lack there of) out of my cheapo guns that I simply refuse to spend any more cash on one. It's not really about the cost of the gun, but the cost of the ammo I've gone through trying to get them to run right. Believe me, I totally understand the situation many folks find themselves in financially and the decision they make between protecting their families and food. But factor in ammo cost just to make sure the gun functions properly and to get competent with it and I would always advice getting something from a little higher quality manufacturer. They aren't perfect either but are more likely to be good or at least make it good. That said, I never had any issues out of a cheapest of the cheap revolver from any manufacturer. More likely to have issue from an auto than a revolver in my own personal experience. If i only had $100 to spend to protect my family I would scour the LGS for an old revolver and a few boxes of rounds. Not saying I'm right, just my thoughts.


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The_Gun_Guru
07-17-2012, 18:24
I have a good friend of mine who collects H&R, Iver Johnson and Rohm revolvers.


I have two Rohm RG-23s that a friend gave me. He also gave me an RG-10 (in pieces right now) and a Beretta 950BS "Jetfire". I do NOT consider the Beretta a SNS as it is probably worth more than all three of the Rohm revolvers combined.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa310/gunguru364/MISC%20Pistols/2012-07-17_20-04-48_124.jpg
(Rohm RG-23, .22LR)

btw.....when I took the RG-23 to the range for the first time, it took about 10 or 12 pulls of the trigger to fire all six rounds!:rofl: It's not exactly a "combet" handgun...:whistling:


TGG

bluejackets92fs
07-17-2012, 18:39
Good for you. You can afford a $250 gun. Guess what? Others would have to decide whether or not to buy a $50 gun or feeding their kids.

I'm all for self defense but if you are weighing feeding your kids and buying a gun then you are a messed up individual.

vafish
07-17-2012, 18:55
I have two Rohm RG-23s that a friend gave me. He also gave me an RG-10 (in pieces right now) and a Beretta 950BS "Jetfire". I do NOT consider the Beretta a SNS as it is probably worth more than all three of the Rohm revolvers combined.




TGG

Well if you take those 3 Rhoms to Chicago at their next gun buyback you can get $300 for them.

bsg1
07-17-2012, 19:30
.....

bsg1
07-17-2012, 19:41
SNS is something that is needed. Those who frequent this forum probably wouldn't buy one for self defense.....but there are those who do, because the low price doesn't exclude them from defending themselves.

ooc

Others would have to decide whether or not to buy a $50 gun or feeding their kids.


+2

i have been lucky with dogs and guns. but i've never forgotten where i came from. i would never criticize a man for defending himself and his family with a Hi-Point, Raven... or whatever else he could put into his hands by chance or design to get the job done.

garya1961
07-17-2012, 19:51
Good for you. You can afford a $250 gun. Guess what? Others would have to decide whether or not to buy a $50 gun or feeding their kids.
I agree except for me the $50 gun would be a beat up 12 ga single shot.

Revvv
07-17-2012, 20:01
My brother is a Marine. This guy served in combat in Afghanistan. For reasons that boggle my mind he owns and relys on a Hi-Point. He shoots and enjoys my Glocks, but he is a better shot with his dirt cheap Hi-Point. He has yet to have a jam or malfunction of any kind.

If you ask me the Hi-Point stuff feels terrible in my hands and is top heavy. I don't trust the guns, but I can say that they have not given me a reason not to trust them.

dajcarroll
07-17-2012, 20:12
I had a Jennings .22 that I loved. That little guy was a trooper, fun to shoot, and very very accurate. It was chrome with wooden grips... man it was sweet. I bought it for $100 new, but I ended up trading it for a 12 gauge straight up. I paid more for it than I probably should have, but it was a great gun. The trade was too good to pass up. I'll probably buy another Jennings or Jimenez .22 someday.


G19 - Gen 3
G37 - Gen 3
NEF Pardner SBI 12 Ga.
Savage Model 24 - .22LR/410

The_Gun_Guru
07-17-2012, 21:05
Well if you take those 3 Rhoms to Chicago at their next gun buyback you can get $300 for them.

Spend $500 in airfare and $200 for a hotel just to get $300? NO WAY!!!:wavey:

Besides, I couldn't sell them now because my friend's dad passed away tonight and I know that at least one of them was his. His dad was a great guy!!!


TGG

jakebrake
07-17-2012, 21:10
Raven .25 would be a good example.

actually bought one for the wife.:wow:

hogship
07-17-2012, 21:20
I had one of these Sterling Arms 22LR for awhile back in the 70's or 80's. I bought it new, and I think it was around a hundred bucks back then. It was striker fired, with only a trigger block safety.....not that great a design. As I recall, it was pretty reliable, though.

I didn't have it for long......gave it to my brother. He gave it to our sister. My sister gave it back to me. I gave it to my niece, who is currently using it for SD.......better than nothing, and I'm glad she has it! If I were buying a SD gun for her, I wouldn't choose this one.

ooc

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/294895000/294895170/pix524434615.jpg

bsg1
07-17-2012, 22:35
Raven .25 would be a good example.

actually bought one for the wife.:wow:


you may or may not be aware... do not dry fire the Raven; has a brittle firing pin. there are however, aftermarket firing pins that can resolve the issue.

CajunBass
07-18-2012, 04:31
No need to buy garbage guns when you can get a high quality gun for well under $400. Police trade in S&W mod 10s are easily found under $250.

Sure there is. If you don't have $400.00...or even $250.00, you need something for less.

Seems simple enough to me.

Bob Hafler
07-18-2012, 06:03
If I could not afford to spend to much on a gun I'd look in the used section for a gun. I saw a used Bersa Thunder Two Tone for $175. It looked to me like it was well cared for and not all scratched up. At first I thought it was new. If I was not there to buy a SKS I might have very well bought it for use as a truck gun. They have quite a loyal following and just might be the best kept secrete in the .380 gun market.

SigFTW
07-18-2012, 06:42
My cheap gun I bought back in the early 90s for $90.00 is now worth $350+ it's an SKS. I did have a Llama 380 that looked like a small 1911. I wish I still had that gun. It was cheap however it was fun to shoot.

Now my cheapest (SNS) gun is a Sig P6 :whistling:

Bill Keith
07-18-2012, 21:19
Seems this topic comrs up ptretty regularly. I bought a brand new, in the box, Phoenix Raven a number of years agofor $65 from a guy selling them out of the back of a car at a gun show. The gun has run well for me, and I keep it loaded with Glazer Ammo and it is accurate to within 3" at 15 yards. :wavey:

Berto
07-18-2012, 21:32
Crap, I paid $95 for an old Enfield No2 MkI. It had cracked vulcanite grips and a missing stirrup spring, but it ran fine. It's been fixed up since, still runs fine.

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/6915/breaktops011.jpg

Bren
07-19-2012, 04:54
I had one of these Sterling Arms 22LR for awhile back in the 70's or 80's. I bought it new, and I think it was around a hundred bucks back then. It was striker fired, with only a trigger block safety.....not that great a design. As I recall, it was pretty reliable, though.

I didn't have it for long......gave it to my brother. He gave it to our sister. My sister gave it back to me. I gave it to my niece, who is currently using it for SD.......better than nothing, and I'm glad she has it! If I were buying a SD gun for her, I wouldn't choose this one.


I had a Sterling .25 once. Not a bad quality gun, best I remember. I bought it as a junker, with no grips or magazine, for about $10 or less. I'd still have it if the local police hadn't offered $100 cash per gun at a "buy back". I got in line wiht the dealers carrying their stacks of new-in-box cheap-o guns and we got our $100 per gun. I had 3 of those $10 .25 autos left from when I was a dealer and bought a bunch to repair and sell.

SpectreRider
07-19-2012, 20:41
You can thank liberals for banning the import of the SNS and I can apparently also thank some of the fine folks here on GT who care so little for our 2A rights that it is ok to ban guns they do not care to own.

BTW/ has anybody bought one of those nifty little Glock .380 pistols, the G25 or the G28?

No..... Well that is because they can not be imported because they fit into the SNS definition.

How do you like that serrated "target" trigger on your 26?

Trade it out for a smooth faced trigger?

You had to do that because without that nasty serrated trigger the sub-compact Glocks fit the definition of a (DRUM ROLL) Saturday Night Special.

ZO6Vettever
07-20-2012, 12:35
A friend in Pennsylvania just "sold" 2 Bryco Jennings 380's to the PoPo "turn in" for $100. each local Supermarket vouchers. One he had in his back pocket, laid his Harley down, landed on his ass and the slide wouldn't rack anymore. He never could put more than 5 rounds in it or it jammed. He must have not had a helmet on and hit his head too because he bought another that wouldn't feed with more than 5 in the mag. I think he did good getting $200. outta the junk. He's carrying his Charter Arms snubby 38 now. Still only 5 rounds but at least it goes bang every time. I told him go shopping with $200. and the Charter Arms 38 and get a Sigma. It would be a big upgrade for him. :dunno:

SigFTW
07-20-2012, 13:42
Checked out the Nagant pistol last night at Gander Mountain. That is one fugly gun and was listed for $125.00. Add that to the SNS list, the only problem would be the ammo:wow:

oldnoob
07-20-2012, 13:53
Saturday night special is whatever liberalism defines it. If some handguns were banned, the term would be redefined to include the next in line! It's part of the liberal agenda.

SNS is something that is needed. Those who frequent this forum probably wouldn't buy one for self defense.....but there are those who do, because the low price doesn't exclude them from defending themselves.

ooc


I think that inexpensive handguns serve a very valuable purpose. Some people cannot afford to pay several hundred dollars for a handgun. Are handguns only for the rich, are not poor people entitled to protect themselves with a handgun? Anti-second amendment types love to demonize guns by calling them “Saturday Night Specials.” I refuse to buy into that propaganda.

RJ

Finally, someone with a logical mind.

mac66
07-20-2012, 14:03
The Sterling was actually a good quality pistol made of steel. I had one, used it as a back up to my service revolver. A bunch of guys on my department had them.

On the other hand I bought a Davis Derringer because I always wanted a derringer. It was such a POS that I took a sledge hammer to it to keep any other unfortunate soul from ever having to use it. I saw a lot of those ring of fire/junk guns back in the day. Yes they were junk. As are Rohn's, RGs, etc. Of course if you go way back the SNS were the Iver Johnson, H&Rs etc.

Spiffums
07-20-2012, 16:24
If they're real cheap and made of pot metal, I'd call them Saturday night specials.

^^^^^^^



Saturday Night Special is an anti term used to describe a cheap affordable handgun. They aren't for shooters or sportsmen, they are for the people who want something in the sock drawer for the off chance that "Urban Youth" will come calling at 0 dark 30.

jtull7
07-20-2012, 17:18
Life is too short, and the life of your family is too dear, to own cheap, crappy handguns.

If one can save up $200 for a POS, then one can save a little more and a little longer to buy a Glock, for instance. Patience pays.

I have saved for a year to buy a high-quality handgun. I'm glad I did.

ca survivor
07-21-2012, 07:44
demoCRAPS. :rofl::rofl:

jakebrake
07-21-2012, 07:46
you may or may not be aware... do not dry fire the Raven; has a brittle firing pin. there are however, aftermarket firing pins that can resolve the issue.

oh, trust me. i knew that one. i've since gotten her a gsg 22....the raven is a paperweight....one that no one seems to want. i'm thinking of waiting for a local gun buy back to happen in my area.

nastytrigger
07-21-2012, 19:47
Haven't been on for a couple days, but I've read through all the posts. Thanks for all the replies.

Some good debating, opinions, the usual GT goodness.

I really wanted to know where SNS/Junk guns stood in the eye of GT and politics. Gun politics can be a sore subject, but understanding terminology and stigma of certain guns is important to prevent further restriction.

Showed my Dad, for instance after the Colorado movie theater shooting, how automatic, assault rifle, and clips are thrown around so easily in the media.

Myke_Hart
07-22-2012, 00:57
This is the worst I got since someone stole my .380 lorcin back in the 90's.

It actually is the first gun I smithed. My dad gave me the frame, I fitted the cylinder, internals, and grips. I have invested more money in parts than it is worth. It is a pretty acurate and reliable gun now.:embarassed:

H&R 733 32 S&W long
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/myke_hart/Handguns/IMG_4629.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/myke_hart/Handguns/IMG_4628.jpg

bsg1
07-24-2012, 16:10
This is the worst I got since someone stole my .380 lorcin back in the 90's.

It actually is the first gun I smithed. My dad gave me the frame, I fitted the cylinder, internals, and grips. I have invested more money in parts than it is worth. It is a pretty acurate and reliable gun now.:embarassed:

H&R 733 32 S&W long




http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/myke_hart/Handguns/IMG_4628.jpg


it's got you and your dad tied into it; guess it's a keeper now....

Berto
07-24-2012, 21:14
H&R makes some good guns, I hate how they pin them together though, hell to work on.

VinnieD
07-24-2012, 23:35
I have nothing against a cheap and reliable if ugly gun like a hi-point. I've met people who have one who shoot them on a regular basis. Now Jemminez and similar break if you look at them wrong, looks like a cap gun junk guns are an inevitable danger to the user if they should fail at a vital time, and I think are marketed toward those who don't know any better. I think if someone has $100 and has to pick a self defense gun without any knowledge of quality, they'll go for the shiny 1911 clone rather than the black brick.

Criminals don't buy legal guns they steal them or buy from someone who stole them.

Myke_Hart
07-25-2012, 04:55
it's got you and your dad tied into it; guess it's a keeper now....

Naw... You gotta have at least one drop gun in the collection... :whistling:

ZombieJoe
07-25-2012, 14:30
Three days after my 18th birthday I purchased my first gun, a Raven 25acp. It cost me a whopping $60, and served its purpose. I only ran a few boxes of ammo threw it, but never had a FTF or FTE.

Every one should be able to defend them selfs, not only the ones who can afford Glocks.

H-D&GLOCK
07-27-2012, 12:53
I had a Bersa .380 once and liked it very much.

bsg1
07-27-2012, 19:11
.....