You answer the door with a gun... it's the cops [Archive] - Glock Talk

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UneasyRider
07-16-2012, 20:38
Tonights news had a story of a young man who answered his door at night, somebody was pounding on it, he had a gun and brought it with him to open the door. The 2 guys pounding on door don't say anything. True story.

The man opens his door and it's 2 cops who are looking for a murder suspect... they have the wrong unit number... the cops immediately shoot and kill the guy who opened the door.

What would you do if you were the cops?

What would you do if you were the man in the apartment?

20South
07-16-2012, 21:18
If I were the man with the gun and I asked who was there, I wouldnt have answered the door and I likely would have called the police.

arclight610
07-16-2012, 21:29
Peephole?

jp3975
07-16-2012, 21:38
Usually when I answer the door with a gun, I have it behind my back.

Cali-Glock
07-16-2012, 21:48
I live in the middle of nowhere - anyone pounding on my door after I have gone to sleep will be greeted with the business end of a gun. At least cops in rural areas expect this.

AK_Stick
07-16-2012, 22:07
I live in the middle of nowhere - anyone pounding on my door after I have gone to sleep will be greeted with the business end of a gun. At least cops in rural areas expect this.



I don't know about that.


While common to have a gun, its decidedly uncommon around these rural parts, to open the door covering someone with a weapon. And doing so, would likely end quite like this event did.



Personally, I have both a peep hole, a glass section above the door, and a window through which I can see the door, without being seen. I always check before I answer. I also have a light above the door, and motion lights that activate prior to you getting 1/2 way down my drive, and illuminate my whole front yard as well.

While I will generally answer the door with a weapon, pointing it at someone and then opening the door, just seems to be asking for issues.

G22Dude
07-16-2012, 22:20
I'm not obligated to open my door just because you knock on it. My wife and I have on many an occassion listen to someone or another pound away at our door while we sit there watching TV. As long as you don't bust the door in then you're ok. People sometimes forget that nobody can force you to answer the door

lawman800
07-16-2012, 22:56
Usually when I answer the door with a gun, I have it behind my back.

This... or I have it in my left hand, which I can shoot just as well with.

BlackPaladin
07-16-2012, 22:57
. At least cops in rural areas expect this.

No, cops don't and if you pull a stunt like that, plan on things not working for you in the long term.

smokeross
07-16-2012, 23:01
If you beat on my door, day or night, I will have you covered. I may not open it though, but you will be covered.

lawman800
07-16-2012, 23:26
No, cops don't and if you pull a stunt like that, plan on things not working for you in the long term.

I don't think it will take too long for it to turn ugly... more like very short term, almost immediate term, at that.:whistling:

BlackPaladin
07-16-2012, 23:41
For clarification, I am referring to answering a door with an aimed weapon. I really think it is probably tough guy talk and most people would have better sense. FYI, I am not at all against having a firearm while answering the door. I can't imagine the stupidity who would not check to see who might be at the door before opening it though. Further stupidity would be opening a door to an unchecked person with an aimed weapon. There are a who lot of ways to avoid problems like that, see AKs post above.

FireForged
07-16-2012, 23:42
If a situation at your front door is so suspect that a person feels the need to have a gun in their hand.. WHY in the heck would they open it?

jp3975
07-17-2012, 04:15
If a situation at your front door is so suspect that a person feels the need to have a gun in their hand.. WHY in the heck would they open it?

I usually do if i dont know them.

awoodpd13
07-17-2012, 05:56
Peephole?


This!!! If you look out, and it's a uniformed Police Officer, secure your firearm, THEN open the door!:wow::wow::wow:

TheExplorer
07-17-2012, 06:03
Many doors do not have peepholes. Perhaps a question for coptalk, but from my limited CJ courses years ago, the law clearly states you must identify yourself as a LEO when knocking on the door. Heck this is procedure even for a raid. I have a feeling these cops will having some in depth discussions with IA and the DA's office.

UneasyRider
07-17-2012, 06:10
I have more information having seen the video of the front of the apartment house. The resident could not see out enough to tell who was pounding on his door. Why did he open it?

The police have the door opened looking for a killer at this address and are met by a man with a gun? Around here your dead, we have lost too many cops.

Wrong address happens. Don't open the door. Get a warrant or some back up. No winners here.

eracer
07-17-2012, 06:41
I would never open the door unless I first looked at the people standing outside it.

Hearing someone say, "Police, open up!" is not enough.

pugman
07-17-2012, 07:13
This very thing happened to me back in 1992.

My now wife and I had our first apartment in a not so great area of town. It wasn't the hood, but 1) I wouldn't live there today 2) it didn't pass the car test. We had a 1st floor apartment.

About 3:30 am on a Sunday morning we get a pounding on the door. I had just gotten back from my bartending gig so I was up. My wife had been sleeping. Those doors did have peep holes but they were cheap, dirty (which is my fault) and gave you a viewing like a coke bottle.

I got the "its the police, please open up" line. However, at the time I had a bat and no gun.

Told him I HAD a gun and was calling 911 - he then informed me they were looking for an armed robbery suspect and noticed I was on the road and just came home.

The bar I worked at used armed security who escorted us out at night. I asked the cop if he knew Jim (the owner of JBM) he said yes; asked him to describe him and he did to a tee "6'4, blonde and dumb."

Little did I know a third officer was covering me from my ground floor glass patio door.

Today in my house...I'm simply not opening the door. They want to break it down having the wrong address...this is why I have an attorney and they have insurance. My wife has been asking us to change out our front door for months.

DustyJacket
07-17-2012, 07:32
.. the law clearly states you must identify yourself as a LEO when knocking on the door...

Not in any state I know of.




If I am answering my door at night, any gun I carry would be in my hand, in bathrobe pocket.

I would turn on the porch light, and look at the person and ask what they wanted, BEFORE, opening the door.

I would not be pointing a visible gun at the person.
If I felt that bad about the situation, I would not open the door. I would tell the person that I am calling the police.

17&27
07-17-2012, 07:54
If a situation at your front door is so suspect that a person feels the need to have a gun in their hand.. WHY in the heck would they open it?


This. I'm not giving up my advantage of them not knowing where I am.

RED64CJ5
07-17-2012, 08:11
Loosely, these are our "house rules" in said situations....

1. Absolutely nothing compels anyone in my house to ever open a door. Nothing. Identification as LEO means ZIP-ZILCH-NADA. I have taught my kids that even if someone is begging for mercy, you do not open without assessment first.

2. If something doesn't feel right, refer to rule number 1.

3. Always answer night time visitors with proper Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) in hand. This does not necessarily mean "physically in your hand," but normally in the pocket or small of back. Typically snub nose or .380 pocket pistol.

4. When in doubt, use the security monitors/camera system to sweep perimeter. I would not own another home that does not have 360 view of the home.

Mr.Pliskin
07-17-2012, 08:18
I don't answer the door anymore but...A few years ago there was a knocking on the door, I stopped getting ready to leave and answered it. When I opened the door there were two police officers on the porch asking if I knew the neighbor across the street. About this time I realize that I don't have an over shirt on, and my glock that I'm carrying AIWB is just sitting openly in the holster. I answer that I didnt but gave a description of their car an they went on their way.

I guess if they thought my house was a murder suspects home things may have gone a bit differently but I was proud of my PD that it wasn't even brought up as an issue.

Bren
07-17-2012, 08:41
Tonights news had a story of a young man who answered his door at night, somebody was pounding on it, he had a gun and brought it with him to open the door. The 2 guys pounding on door don't say anything. True story.

The man opens his door and it's 2 cops who are looking for a murder suspect... they have the wrong unit number... the cops immediately shoot and kill the guy who opened the door.

What would you do if you were the cops?

What would you do if you were the man in the apartment?


If/when I answer the door with a gun, as I have, it is out of sight and not pointed at anybody. So if I was the apartment resident, I'd do that and I wouldn't get shot.

If I was the police (or not the police) and I knocked on a door like any private citizen can do, and waited for a guy to answer, and he opened it and pointed a gun at me, I'd be shooting as fast as I could - anything else gives him the initiative than can decide who lives and dies.

I notice that both the newpaper writers and Glock Talkers are putting their own spin on the story, with no facts to back it up. For example, the paper saying the police "accidentally" shot "the wrong man" and they meant to shoot "an attempted murder suspect" - none of which is true or supported by the stated facts. They intentionally shot "the right man" - the one pointing a gun at them. They don't shoot people for being attempted murder suspects, they shoot them for pointing a gun.

You say "the 2 guys pounding on door don't say anything." But the paper said they "knocked" so I guess you choose to use "pounded" to imply that the resident may have had some reason to be afraid. It also isn't clear whether they said anything, but it is clear that there was no reason for them to say anything, under the stated facts.

quake
07-17-2012, 08:45
Honestly don't know the answer to this, other than to ask who it is when they say they're a cop. Afaik, I know all of the officers in my area, so the answer would be along the lines of "Jimbo", "Harry", etc.

If you don't know them personally (and I realize most won't have that luxury), it might be a good idea to tell them you'll open up when they have dispatch call you on the phone, so you can confirm via caller id that it's at least likely real cops. It's something that they can do with one five-second radio call, and I've had to do it myself.

Bren
07-17-2012, 08:49
I live in the middle of nowhere - anyone pounding on my door after I have gone to sleep will be greeted with the business end of a gun. At least cops in rural areas expect this.

Having been a cop in "rural areas" I'd have shot you, as would any cop I know. I'm not sure what makes you think they expect it in California, but I'm betting you are wrong.

Bren
07-17-2012, 09:09
Many doors do not have peepholes. Perhaps a question for coptalk, but from my limited CJ courses years ago, the law clearly states you must identify yourself as a LEO when knocking on the door.

NO - it doesn't.

Heck this is procedure even for a raid.


Actually, it's procedure only in a raid. The police have to identify themselves before forcibly entering, unless they have legal authorization to enter without doing so (i.e., a "no-knock warrant"). When they are just knocking on your door, they have the same freeedom to do so as anybody else on the street and there is no requirement to identify themselves. If they aren't in uniform, they could knock, talk to you, ask questions and leave without ever telling you they are the police.

I have a feeling these cops will having some in depth discussions with IA and the DA's office.

You are wrong, other than a normal shooting investigation of an ovbviously justified shooting.

DustyJacket
07-17-2012, 09:11
For those that say they would open the door with a gun pointing at the visitor, how about this:

You are asleep, and awaken to the doorbell ringing and pounding on the door.
You get up, open the door without saying/asking anything and point a firearm at the person who is trying to alert you to the fact that your roof is on fire.

After your insurance paid off the burned down house, you would be losing whatever you had left to a lawsuit, and possibly spending time in jail.

kirgi08
07-17-2012, 10:07
This... or I have it in my left hand, which I can shoot just as well with.

My friend your LEO,they screwed up,they killed a potential perp,while armed he did the same as all of us woulda done.It's a bad shoot and you know it.They didn't ID at point of entry and were scared.

That this is in the S/P is indicative ta a real sense of wonder.Will LEO follow the COTUS or bow ta politicians?.

I consider this a bad shoot.No ID by the LEOs and in his own home.They went fishing and killed a man.Granted,he wasn't a man of good repute.He had a file.However,if the "shots" through the door gets any legs.There are some LEO that need ta pay.'08.

smokeross
07-17-2012, 10:23
If you beat on my door, day or night, I will have you covered. I may not open it though, but you will be covered.
When I say 'I got you covered' I mean I am not unarmed. I wouldn't point a weapon at anyone without good cause. I have been awoken at night many times by losers (usually drunk) who happen to run off into a snow berm and get stuck. They must think I am just waiting for their cry for help to jump from my warm bed and drag their beater vehicle back onto the road. I won't help the drunks, but sometimes do help others. Last one was an old man by himself.

TheExplorer
07-17-2012, 10:35
NO - it doesn't.


Actually, it's procedure only in a raid. The police have to identify themselves before forcibly entering, unless they have legal authorization to enter without doing so (i.e., a "no-knock warrant"). When they are just knocking on your door, they have the same freeedom to do so as anybody else on the street and there is no requirement to identify themselves. If they aren't in uniform, they could knock, talk to you, ask questions and leave without ever telling you they are the police.


You are wrong, other than a normal shooting investigation of an ovbviously justified shooting.

Remind me what's justified about two unidentified cops pounding at your door and then shooting you without having a gun pointed at them? No way will this be swept under the rug.

Bren
07-17-2012, 11:31
Remind me what's justified about two unidentified cops pounding at your door and then shooting you without having a gun pointed at them? No way will this be swept under the rug.

Did you read a different story? The 3 or 4 I read in this case said he pointed a gun at the police.

"When we knocked on the door, the door opened and the occupant of that apartment was pointing a gun at deputies, and that's when we opened fire and killed him," Lt. John Herrell said. "Even though this subject is not the one we were looking for when he opened the door. He was pointing the gun at the deputy ....
Read more: http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/Deputies-shoot-kill-man-after-knocking-on-wrong-door/-/11788162/15527202/-/euk6tg/-/index.html#ixzz20u0FVXld


I have noticed that the later stories just deleted, without comment, the statement from the police about why they shot - so there is room for you to have read one of the several that seems to be going as far as outright lying to spin it as a bad shooting. However, the initial stories clearely quoted the police statement, making me wonder about later ones that claim the poice didn't comment.:upeyes:

Then again, they started from story 1 saying things like "wrong door" and "accidentally shot" and "shot the wrong man" all of which were clearly false, according to the facts in the stories.

Commander_Zero
07-17-2012, 11:46
Usually when I answer the door with a gun, I have it behind my back.

+1. If I'm opening the door I've already determined the threat level isn't nearly as high as it could be (otherwise, why would you open the door?) Keeping the gun behind my back simply keeps "Hi, can I talk to you today about jesus?" from becoming something more complicated.

beatcop
07-17-2012, 19:03
knock-knock

Who's there?

Police! Open the door!

What do you want?

Answer....blah, blah, blah

"He doesn't live here"
Hmmm, sound like cops, see flashlights, maybe a car...maybe, turn on porch light?

PUT GUN AWAY IF IT LOOKS LEGIT

Answer door or call 911 if skeptical


Bottom line: Don't have weapons aimed when opening the door.
If they are looking for a murder suspect, the door may get kicked in...maybe.

Common sense goes a long way...

Crazy option: Don't answer door when you aren't expecting visitors and it's the middle of the night. If your friends are outside or anyone else, they WILL eventually bang on the door and YELL something to you or call your phone.

Police will do a reverse lookup and dial in if there's a chance of a barricaded suspect...not every time, but it is best practice.

bmoore
07-18-2012, 12:00
I dont even answer my door most of time. We don't get unknown visitors and if we do they can knock away, I don't wanna buy magazines or solar panels. Peephole works good. I always wonder why people think they HAVE to answer their door. Why?

smokeross
07-18-2012, 20:52
I dont even answer my door most of time. We don't get unknown visitors and if we do they can knock away, I don't wanna buy magazines or solar panels. Peephole works good. I always wonder why people think they HAVE to answer their door. Why?
I don't answer my phone half the time either. Especially the cell phone when I am in public.

bmoore
07-18-2012, 20:57
I don't answer my phone half the time either. Especially the cell phone when I am in public.

I'm with you. I don't answer it unless I recognize the number, if its important leave a message. Its not like your not gonna know you have a message until like 8 hours later. Technology is your friend sometimes. The knock on the door thing seriously baffles me.

UneasyRider
07-19-2012, 06:42
New info:

The police called it in as aggravated assault 3 times on the radio, it only turned into attempted murder after they killed the guy.

The "Perp" is an ex cop and got a 100K bond, the cop got 2k.

DrSticky
07-19-2012, 07:11
I don't know what really happened I wasn't there. They are also saying the victim is a veteran now. There are two witnesses and they were both shooting when it ended. I have a hard time believing that an armed veteran pointing a gun at cops wasn't able to get one shot off before they drew and killed him. But that is me. Either way it is a tragedy. I feel sorry for both sides.

Bren
07-19-2012, 09:08
I don't know what really happened I wasn't there. They are also saying the victim is a veteran now. There are two witnesses and they were both shooting when it ended. I have a hard time believing that an armed veteran pointing a gun at cops wasn't able to get one shot off before they drew and killed him. But that is me. Either way it is a tragedy. I feel sorry for both sides.
I haven't seen where he was a veteran, other than a veteran criminal: "Drugs and drug paraphernalia were found in Scott's apartment. Sheriff's officials said Scott has had a criminal history of drug-related arrests, yet he was not the suspect police were searching for in the attempted murder case." http://www.dailycommercial.com/071612officershooting

However, cases in which a person draws and shoots another who has a gun already pointed, without that person getting off a shot, are common enough to not raise an eyebrow among people with experience. In real life, I know at least 2 guys who have done so in a gun fight. One story (not a guy I know) I posted as an example in another thread is this one:
http://www.wdrb.com/story/8433978/the-louisville-man-who-shot-and-killed-two-robbery-suspects-is-sharing-his-experience?clienttype=printable

70-year-old man with no particular training was being held at gun point, but managed to draw and shoot and kill both robbers without them firing a shot.

I recall one from either a Massad Ayoob article or a Rehmsburg book (Tactical Edge/Street Survival) about 2 offficers in the 40's or 50's walking up to the door of a bar to answer a complaint and the suspect came out the door pointing a gun as they were walking up - as I recall, they both drew and emptied both revolvers without him firing a shot. Surprise at the intended victim fighting back can be a big advantage.

EDIT: I just searched for something saying he was a veteran - I've found where he was a criminal and convicted felon and where he was a pizza delivery driver, but nothing saying he was a veteran.

Bren
07-19-2012, 09:18
New info:

The police called it in as aggravated assault 3 times on the radio, it only turned into attempted murder after they killed the guy.

The "Perp" is an ex cop and got a 100K bond, the cop got 2k.

Attempted murder and aggravated assault describe the same event and going from one to the other is very common - they are also the same penalty, here, so there isn't much preference. The difference betweeen the charges is the amount of injury for one, vs. proving intent to kill for the other. If you shoot at somebody and miss, it's going to be attempted murder. If you hit somebody with a cinder block and it appears to be a serious injury, it's going to be an agggravated assault, because that is easier to prove (don't have to show intent to kill). If the victim then goes to the hospital and the injury turns out not to be serious, it's going back to attempted murder, because it is then worth trying to prove intent. However, just claiming they called it "aggravated assault" on the radio means nothing at all, anywhere - so what?


Not sure what you mean about the bond and "the cop got 2K" - what is that? No cops were charged with crimes or posted bonds and they certainly don't get a share of the bond.:rofl:

So, what does that mean and can you post a link to your source?

UneasyRider
07-19-2012, 10:17
Not sure what you mean about the bond and "the cop got 2K" - what is that? No cops were charged with crimes or posted bonds and they certainly don't get a share of the bond.:rofl:

So, what does that mean and can you post a link to your source?

Now that you mention it I don't recall anyone else being charged but on the TV news those were the words that they used 100K and 2K. I must have missed something, they would never err on TV.

johnjasonchun
07-19-2012, 11:07
Usually when I answer the door with a gun, I have it behind my back.

FLOOD LIGHTS, PEEP HOLE, TALK THROUGH DOOR, ASK FOR ID, 100S OF WAYS TO AVOID THIS... BUT THE POLICE DEPT. WILL BE COUGHING UP BIG $$$$$$ FOR THIS MESS UP!!:crying:

Bren
07-19-2012, 11:32
Now that you mention it I don't recall anyone else being charged but on the TV news those were the words that they used 100K and 2K. I must have missed something, they would never err on TV.

There was a co-defendant on the charge, who apparently did not actually try to crush the guy's head with a cinder block, so that may have been the $2K bond.

Bren
07-19-2012, 11:35
FLOOD LIGHTS, PEEP HOLE, TALK THROUGH DOOR, ASK FOR ID, 100S OF WAYS TO AVOID THIS... BUT THE POLICE DEPT. WILL BE COUGHING UP BIG $$$$$$ FOR THIS MESS UP!!:crying:

The thing I've been trying to get from ANY of these threads is for somebody to explain why they think the police messed up. They went to exactly the house you'd expect them to go to, to continue the investigation, knocked and waited for an answer, like anybody would, and shot a guy who pointed a gun at them. I don't see how they're going to be paying anything to anybody.

All I get is conclusions, with no supporting explanation: "they messed up" "they went to the wrong house" "they shot the wrong guy" etc. - none of those conclusion are supported by the articles i've seen..

DustyJacket
07-19-2012, 12:39
... explain why they think the police messed up.n..

They didn't have their hats on

They didn't make an appointment




:rofl:

Maine1
07-19-2012, 14:20
What is the difference between POUND and KNOCK?
I answer my door with a holstered pistol, as if i am awake, i have it. I know the local cops, they know me. They know i am armed 24/7.

They knock, I ask, they answer, we talk.

POUNDING on my door? 14 years in corrections will make my hackles go up.
I'll draw and hold it behind my leg while i YELLL " who are you and what do you want" I may also shine them with a surefire, handheld.
Cop or not, there is a way to answer the door.

also...if this guy IS a bad guy, and has his weapon trained on the cops, how do they draw and shoot him without getting shot themselves> Action does beat reaction, even in CA.

This is one of those "mutual stupid" situations.

DustyJacket
07-19-2012, 14:38
If somene smells gas, they would (should) pound on the door and not use a doorbell.

(trust me on that)

beatcop
07-19-2012, 15:19
do not open door...what else do we need to say?

Ok, do not open door w/gun if police are outside.

Can't tell?

Do not open door.

Darwin....

Dalton Wayne
07-19-2012, 15:22
Usually when I answer the door with a gun, I have it behind my back.
Same here

Bren
07-19-2012, 15:25
What is the difference between POUND and KNOCK?

"Pound" implies a louder and more frantic/violent action than "knock" so many people commenting on the story have claimed the police "beat" or "pounded" on the door, so they can give a more violent impresion to what the police were doing than was actually reported. I don't recall the name for the argument technique, but basically you try to slant the argument in your favor by choosing the words that are used, where their are multiple choices. Common examples would be "assault weapons" instead of "rifle" or "pro-choice" instead of "pro-abortion."


I answer my door with a holstered pistol, as if i am awake, i have it. I know the local cops, they know me. They know i am armed 24/7.

They knock, I ask, they answer, we talk.

Many of us answer the door with a gun at 1:30 am. Unlike Andrew Scott, we just don't point it at the person on the other side when we open the door (without a reason).


POUNDING on my door? 14 years in corrections will make my hackles go up.
I'll draw and hold it behind my leg while i YELLL " who are you and what do you want" I may also shine them with a surefire, handheld.
Cop or not, there is a way to answer the door.

also...if this guy IS a bad guy, and has his weapon trained on the cops, how do they draw and shoot him without getting shot themselves> Action does beat reaction, even in CA.

This is one of those "mutual stupid" situations.

If he ad answered the door like you say, we could have avoided this whole thing - e wouldn't have even been in trouble unless they saw the drugs from outside or knew he was a convicted felon when they saw the gun.

As for action beating reaction, I know at least 2 guys just in the few I personally know who have been in gunfights on the street, who have drawn against a drawn gun and killed a guy without him getting a shot off. One drew from an ankle holster to do it. There are numerous cases - it's very common in both civilian and police shootings. In other threads on this I posted an article about a 70-year-old who drew and killed 2 robbers, with one pointing a gun at him, without being shot.

rkwrichard
07-19-2012, 15:26
Hopefully the two cops that shot the man in his own home end up in prison. They should not be excused from shooting an innocent man.

beatcop
07-19-2012, 15:37
Hopefully the two cops that shot the man in his own home end up in prison. They should not be excused from shooting an innocent man.

If you get your news from the "news" consider yourself misinformed. I have personally been to events that were mis-reported.

I'm sure they just decided to shoot him on sight and the gun in his hand was just coincidence:whistling:

FireForged
07-19-2012, 15:45
As soon as this fellow pointed a weapon at the Officers.. it didnt really matter if he was or wasnt the badguy they were looking for.

rkwrichard
07-19-2012, 16:18
If you get your news from the "news" consider yourself misinformed. I have personally been to events that were mis-reported.

I'm sure they just decided to shoot him on sight and the gun in his hand was just coincidence:whistling:

Yes and we had a no knock warrant that was served in my state were an older woman was killed in her home. It was the wrong address and the officers involved lied about what happened. False information was given when they obtained the warrant and an innocent woman was killed because of it. Bad shoot- bad cops and bad rules of engagement used.. it does happen and if you shoot an innocent person you should end up in prison. If it would have been the other way around the shooter would have been looking at a death sentence.

Bren
07-19-2012, 17:17
Hopefully the two cops that shot the man in his own home end up in prison. They should not be excused from shooting an innocent man.

There isn't a single article about this story that claims they shot an innocent man. Did you bother reading any of them, or is this just a random anti-police rant?

Yes and we had a no knock warrant that was served in my state were an older woman was killed in her home. It was the wrong address and the officers evolved lied about what happened. False information was given when they obtained the warrant and an innocent woman was killed because of it. Bad shoot- bad cops and bad rules of engagement used.. it does happen and if you shoot an innocent person you should end up in prison. If it would have been the other way around the shooter would have been looking at a death sentence.

This story was not about a "no knock warrant" or any warrant or any type of entry into a person's house. Again, have you read anything about it before commenting?

If you are upset about no knock warrants, start a thread about them, maybe citing a case that involved one.

If you want to discuss this one, at least say what you think they did wrong, instead of stating conclusions with no indication of how you arrived at them, other than amention of an unrelated case in another state.

greenman19
07-19-2012, 17:38
Yes and we had a no knock warrant that was served in my state were an older woman was killed in her home. It was the wrong address and the officers involved lied about what happened. False information was given when they obtained the warrant and an innocent woman was killed because of it. Bad shoot- bad cops and bad rules of engagement used.. it does happen and if you shoot an innocent person you should end up in prison. If it would have been the other way around the shooter would have been looking at a death sentence.

And you know this how?, Billy Bob down at the diner tell you? Or do you have some evidence?

rkwrichard
07-19-2012, 18:18
And you know this how?, Billy Bob down at the diner tell you? Or do you have some evidence?


Unfortunately I had a friend on the force..

Kathryn Johnston (June 26, 1914 - November 21, 2006)was an elderly Atlanta Georgia woman who was shot by undercover police officers in her home on Neal Street in northwest Atlanta on November 21, 2006, where she had lived for 17 years. Three officers had entered her home in what was later described as a 'botched' drug raid. Officers cut off burglar bars and broke down her door. Police said Johnston fired at them and they fired in response; she fired one shot out the door over the officers' heads and they fired 39 shots, five or six of which hit her. None of the officers were injured by her gunfire, but Johnston was killed by the officers. Police injuries were later attributed to "friendly fire" from each others' weapons.
One of the officers planted drugs in Johnston's house after the shooting. Later investigations found that the paperwork stating that drugs were present at Johnston's house, which had been the basis for the raid, had been falsified. The officers later admitted to having lied when they submitted cocaine as evidence claiming that they had bought it at Johnston's house. Three officers were tried for manslaughter and other charges surrounding falsification and were sentenced to ten, six, and five years respectively.


"By the way I am anything but anti police and greenman I understand most of the bubas and Billy Bobs are in your area.

Sam Spade
07-19-2012, 18:35
Unfortunately I had a friend on the force..

Kathryn Johnston (June 26, 1914 - November 21, 2006)

What possible relevance does this have to the current case?

greenman19
07-19-2012, 19:02
I did ask,. If this was actually the case the officers did not get nearly what they deserve and I don't think any one here will disagree.

Back to you regular scheduled program...

Stevekozak
07-19-2012, 19:43
My take: Dude was unwise to open door not knowing who was there, and having a gun pointed outward (if he indeed did). However, if the police did not announce themselves, I don't see how he could be expected to think police were on the other side of the door. I am curious how different this story might be if the person that knocked or pounded (really, Bren, you know a lot of police that knock politely on doors when they are going to serve a possible homicide warrent?) had been a regular civilian, had seen the gun the homeowner had in hand, and then pulled his own weapon and killed said homeowner in his own home. I suspect there would be many more crying foul.

SCSU74
07-19-2012, 19:48
Many doors do not have peepholes. Perhaps a question for coptalk, but from my limited CJ courses years ago, the law clearly states you must identify yourself as a LEO when knocking on the door. Heck this is procedure even for a raid. I have a feeling these cops will having some in depth discussions with IA and the DA's office.

There is no requirement to announce if you are knocking on the door to talk to someone. If you are serving a warrant a requirement may be you announce, but often that is yelling police as the door is being knocked off its hinges.

If someone opened the door with a gun aimed at me I would shoot them without hesitation. If they opened the door with gun at their side and were acting normal that is a completely different conversation. Moral of the story is don't aim your gun at things/people you aren't willing to shoot.


Sent from my iPhone... which probably auto-corrected something wrong

Sam Spade
07-19-2012, 19:57
However, if the police did not announce themselves, I don't see how he could be expected to think police were on the other side of the door.

Is it your position that it would have been acceptable for him to be pointing his pistol at someone other than the police?

beatcop
07-19-2012, 19:59
Anti-cop nonsense.

Take a story about a guy with a gun in his hand....clearly a bad idea to all but a few here...and turn it into a no-knock bs response about a woman who actually shot at the police.


Ok....back on track.

If you are worried about LE knocking....Don't open it. No obligation to do anything. When the door gets kicked in because you are a murder suspect, please have the lights on so they can see empty hands & you can see uniforms.

Arm chair quarterbacking an ugly scenario that went bad and refusing to acknowledge that having a gun in his hand after opening a door directly contributed to his demise.

-note to self: try not living in a dump where your neighbors are murder suspects

Sam Spade
07-19-2012, 20:06
If your situation is such that you need to answer the door with a gun, then your situation is such that you need to know who's out there before you open the door.

Stevekozak
07-19-2012, 20:12
Is it your position that it would have been acceptable for him to be pointing his pistol at someone other than the police?
It is my postion (as I stated) that it is stupid to open a door when you dont know who is on the other side of it, and to have a gun pointing outward when you do so. Not sure why you would think my position is otherwise. My latter musings were about wheither or not it would have made a difference in people's mind if the person that had shot the homeowner had NOT been a cop. I suspect that it would. What do you think?

Sam Spade
07-19-2012, 20:46
It is my postion (as I stated) that it is stupid to open a door when you dont know who is on the other side of it, and to have a gun pointing outward when you do so. Not sure why you would think my position is otherwise. My latter musings were about wheither or not it would have made a difference in people's mind if the person that had shot the homeowner had NOT been a cop. I suspect that it would. What do you think?

The line I quoted implies that his lack of knowledge about who was knocking matters in the decision to blindly point a gun. Obviously, it doesn't--you can point a gun at neither a cop nor some random knocker. That's why I asked for the clarification.

I agree with you that it was stupid, see my post above. I think that this is something he's probably done before. It boggles the mind that the first time he tried the stunt was the night that hyper-alert cops found their way to his door.

Bren
07-20-2012, 05:25
It is my postion (as I stated) that it is stupid to open a door when you dont know who is on the other side of it, and to have a gun pointing outward when you do so. Not sure why you would think my position is otherwise. My latter musings were about wheither or not it would have made a difference in people's mind if the person that had shot the homeowner had NOT been a cop. I suspect that it would. What do you think?

Yes, it would have made a difference. The anti-cop somments on Glock talk are strictly about people hating the police (pay attention and you'll start to wonder how much police gear and what kind of police movie collection these guys have at home...as in wannabe, but can't). Had it been a CCWer, they'd be ranting about the idiot who opened his door with a gun pointed and how he got what he deserved.

bdcochran
07-20-2012, 06:27
1. the thread is possibly and remotely related to survival.
2. please notice that the insults fly in threads like this.
3. the value of this thread is simply to remind people that humans short cut to opinions, theories and suppositions - the absence of facts is generally ignored. If you want to survive in shtf you need accurate intelligence and facts before you act. If you conduct yourself like people running at the mouth in a thread, you aren't going to make it.:wavey:

UneasyRider
07-20-2012, 07:15
1. the thread is possibly and remotely related to survival.
2. please notice that the insults fly in threads like this.
3. the value of this thread is simply to remind people that humans short cut to opinions, theories and suppositions - the absence of facts is generally ignored. If you want to survive in shtf you need accurate intelligence and facts before you act. If you conduct yourself like people running at the mouth in a thread, you aren't going to make it.:wavey:

Thank you I posted it as an immediate survival issue. Making sport of another poster when there facts are incorrect does not help any of us out.

There was no winner here, a man is dead, let's try to prevent it from happening again.

TBO
07-20-2012, 07:24
Maybe the guy thought he was being visited by "business associates".

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

Bren
07-20-2012, 07:35
There is no requirement to announce if you are knocking on the door to talk to someone.

And to add to that, some law:
The answer in basic knock and talk cases then is clear: the officer who approaches the main entrance of a house has a right to be there, just as any member of the public might have. When a resident has no reasonable expectation to privacy if someone approaches his front door for a legitimate purpose, police officers may also so approach.

Quintana v. Commonwealth, 276 S.W.3d 753, 758 (Ky.2008)

It is clear that the protections of the Fourth Amendment do not come into play for a “knock and talk” until there is a search.

Jones v. State, 962 A.2d 393, 401 (Md.2008)

Absent express orders from the person in possession against any possible trespass, there is no rule of private or public conduct which makes it illegal per se, or a condemned invasion of privacy, for anyone openly and peaceably, at high noon, to walk up the steps and knock on the front door of any man's “castle” with the honest intent of asking questions of the occupant thereof-whether the questioner be a pollster, a salesman, or an officer of the law.

Davis v. United States, 327 F.2d 301, 303 (9th Cir.1964).

In fact, where the police most often end up defending knock and talks is when they DO announce "police" which is sometimes viewed as coercive or, in the case of a suspect who then tries to destroy evidence or flee, it is a police-created exigency that can invalidate a search.

For example:
In Vega, police officers received a tip from an informant that three individuals would be driving through Brownsville, Texas, in a dark sedan with Florida license plates. The officers located the vehicle, placed it under surveillance, and followed it to a residence in Brownsville. . . . Nine officers surrounded the residence. Of the nine, three clearly-identified police officers approached the front door, knocked, and announced “Brownsville Police.” Simultaneously, Vega ran out a back door but was apprehended. Immediately thereafter, an officer climbed the perimeter fence into the backyard, heard movement in the house, and decided to enter the house through the back door, left open by Vega, to protect the safety of his fellow officers. The officers discovered and seized marihuana in the residence. . . . We held that the officers could not rely on the “circumstances of their own making” to justify their warrantless search.

U.S. v. Gomez-Moreno, 479 F.3d 350, 356 (Tex.2007)

Cali-Glock
07-21-2012, 23:43
Having been a cop in "rural areas" I'd have shot you, as would any cop I know. I'm not sure what makes you think they expect it in California, but I'm betting you are wrong.

Let me put it this way. Some years ago I was awakened by the sound of someone pounding on my front door. Until I had identified the person as a deputy the only illumination in or arround my house was the light on my shotgun.

You do the math.

The officer was friendly helpful and only made one passing comment about the shotgun - asking me if I would not mind putting down the shotgun - at that point I was holding it with my support hand only and leaned it aginst the wall next to the front door.

I am a long drive from civilization and more than 100 yards from the road.

If someone pounds on my door an hour from now I'll respond the same way.

BlackPaladin
07-22-2012, 01:57
Let me put it this way. Some years ago I was awakened by the sound of someone pounding on my front door. Until I had identified the person as a deputy the only illumination in or arround my house was the light on my shotgun.

You do the math.

The officer was friendly helpful and only made one passing comment about the shotgun - asking me if I would not mind putting down the shotgun - at that point I was holding it with my support hand only and leaned it aginst the wall next to the front door.

I am a long drive from civilization and more than 100 yards from the road.

If someone pounds on my door an hour from now I'll respond the same way.

You tell em Cali Glock!

I am doing the math as you requested and I really think you are quite the story teller. I realize that you have to support the story you told in your earlier post, but you are full of it.

I especially like the part about the officer "asking" you to put down your aimed shotgun :rofl:

Even in a rural area, if you do something like the story you are telling, things are not going to go well for you. The worst part of it will be when the story hits GNG and those clowns break down "the facts".

Cali-Glock
07-22-2012, 13:36
You tell em Cali Glock!

I am doing the math as you requested and I really think you are quite the story teller. I realize that you have to support the story you told in your earlier post, but you are full of it.

I especially like the part about the officer "asking" you to put down your aimed shotgun :rofl:

Even in a rural area, if you do something like the story you are telling, things are not going to go well for you. The worst part of it will be when the story hits GNG and those clowns break down "the facts".

Lol - I suppose I must have dreamed that whole evening! And what I said is the shot gun was being held by my support hand when te Deputy asked me to put down he shotgun. As soon as I identified the gentleman as a Deputy I stopped pointing at the deputy, shotgun in my support hand and porch light went on. Perhaps a second for the transition. I then asked "what can I do for you" to which he calmly responded something to the effect, can you put down the shotgun.

I honestly find it hard to believe most of you would not do the exact same thing.

Warp
07-22-2012, 13:43
Having read nothing but the OP: If it isn't safe to open the door without a gun, I don't open the door.

You can, and often should, answer the door without opening it.

I have a door club installed, I can thus open the door a little bit with the club in the appropriate position to stop it from opening further.

Cali-Glock
07-22-2012, 13:50
Having read nothing but the OP: If it isn't safe to open the door without a gun, I don't open the door.

You can, and often should, answer the door without opening it.

I have a door club installed, I can thus open the door a little bit with the club in the appropriate position to stop it from opening further.

With my hearing loss I can't understand a person on the other side of a door under the best of conditions.

Wake me up in the middle of the night - no I am not putting on my hearing aids - no chance in Hell I'll make out two words the person on the other side of the door is saying.

I'll stick with only using my shogun illumination device until I determine the status of the unknown midnight disturbance, whatever that disturbance might be.

Warp
07-22-2012, 13:57
Yes and we had a no knock warrant that was served in my state were an older woman was killed in her home. It was the wrong address and the officers involved lied about what happened. False information was given when they obtained the warrant and an innocent woman was killed because of it. Bad shoot- bad cops and bad rules of engagement used.. it does happen and if you shoot an innocent person you should end up in prison. If it would have been the other way around the shooter would have been looking at a death sentence.

The totality of the circumstances should always be considered.

Warp
07-22-2012, 13:58
With my hearing loss I can't understand a person on the other side of a door under the best of conditions.

Wake me up in the middle of the night - no I am not putting on my hearing aids - no chance in Hell I'll make out two words the person on the other side of the door is saying.

I'll stick with only using my shogun illumination device until I determine the status of the unknown midnight disturbance, whatever that disturbance might be.

Okay. Any particular reason you quoted me to say this?

Cali-Glock
07-22-2012, 14:07
Okay. Any particular reason you quoted me to say this?

Yes - I made a direct response to your statement. You don't open a door unless you have determined it is safe to open without a gun.

While I love the idea - and agree that is what should be done where possible, I do not see that as a reasonable standard of expectation in most circumstances, let alone an extreme one such as which prompted this thread.

Bren
07-22-2012, 14:17
Yes - I made a direct response to your statement. You don't open a door unless you have determined it is safe to open without a gun.

While I love the idea - and agree that is what should be done where possible, I do not see that as a reasonable standard of expectation in most circumstances, let alone an extreme one such as which prompted this thread.

Again, this guy wasn;t shot for opening the door with a gun. He was shot for pointing the gun at people. That's the problem.

If you pointed your shotgun at an officer and he didn't feel threatened enough to shoot you, that's great, but if you point it at a meter reader next week and he shoots you, he'll be justified, as would the next cop you point it at, if he arrests you. One reason most cops don't have weapon lights is that the departments are afraid they will point them at people while using it as a flashlight - that is neither safe nor legal.

Warp
07-22-2012, 14:17
Yes - I made a direct response to your statement. You don't open a door unless you have determined it is safe to open without a gun.

While I love the idea - and agree that is what should be done where possible, I do not see that as a reasonable standard of expectation in most circumstances, let alone an extreme one such as which prompted this thread.

So you do/would open the door while illuminating the person(s) on the other side with your weapon mounted light?

TBO
07-22-2012, 14:48
So you do/would open the door while illuminating the person(s) on the other side with your weapon mounted light?

... and how is that not assault with a firearm?

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

DrSticky
07-22-2012, 15:26
I haven't seen where he was a veteran, other than a veteran criminal: "Drugs and drug paraphernalia were found in Scott's apartment. Sheriff's officials said Scott has had a criminal history of drug-related arrests, yet he was not the suspect police were searching for in the attempted murder case." http://www.dailycommercial.com/071612officershooting

However, cases in which a person draws and shoots another who has a gun already pointed, without that person getting off a shot, are common enough to not raise an eyebrow among people with experience. In real life, I know at least 2 guys who have done so in a gun fight. One story (not a guy I know) I posted as an example in another thread is this one:
http://www.wdrb.com/story/8433978/the-louisville-man-who-shot-and-killed-two-robbery-suspects-is-sharing-his-experience?clienttype=printable

70-year-old man with no particular training was being held at gun point, but managed to draw and shoot and kill both robbers without them firing a shot.

I recall one from either a Massad Ayoob article or a Rehmsburg book (Tactical Edge/Street Survival) about 2 offficers in the 40's or 50's walking up to the door of a bar to answer a complaint and the suspect came out the door pointing a gun as they were walking up - as I recall, they both drew and emptied both revolvers without him firing a shot. Surprise at the intended victim fighting back can be a big advantage.

EDIT: I just searched for something saying he was a veteran - I've found where he was a criminal and convicted felon and where he was a pizza delivery driver, but nothing saying he was a veteran.

Well if he wasn't a veteran and he was a drug user then the "not getting a shot off" makes more sense. I went back to the news article I read, but the veteran comment was gone. The article had a update of yesterday, so who knows if I read it wrong or not.

I hope it was a clean shoot, but either way I still feel sorry for the officers. One consolation is that they have someone to share it with, someone who was there.

EDIT: I found the wrong article. I can't find the original. I must have read it wrong.

ray9898
07-23-2012, 13:40
Bottom line on this:


He was not shot for answering the door with a gun, he was shot for unjustly pointing a gun at another which justified an act of self-defense. His actions would have been unlawful no matter who the visitor was.

LE is under no obligation to announce when they are not demanding entry such as with a warrant.

LE did not knock on the 'wrong' door, they were simply investigating at a logical starting point where the suspects transportation was found. For charges that serious every door in the area would have been knocked on in the area canvas.



Is it tragic but that does not mean anyone erred.

TBO
07-23-2012, 17:03
:goodpost:

Angry Fist
07-23-2012, 17:05
People wonder why I keep a boatload of WatchTowers on hand. Throw a few more out there when needed and some deck stain. They get the message.

BlackPaladin
07-23-2012, 17:06
Bottom line on this:


He was not shot for answering the door with a gun, he was shot for unjustly pointing a gun at another which justified an act of self-defense. His actions would have been unlawful no matter who the visitor was.

LE is under no obligation to announce when they are not demanding entry such as with a warrant.

LE did not knock on the 'wrong' door, they were simply investigating at a logical starting point where the suspects transportation was found. For charges that serious every door in the area would have been knocked on in the area canvas.



Is it tragic but that does not mean anyone erred.

Very good posting!

The Shadow
07-26-2012, 11:55
I always answer my door with a gun in my hand. The person at the door just doesn't know it.

Terry

Stevekozak
07-29-2012, 06:35
There has been talk in this thread about how the police was able to draw and fire on a man with a gun allegedly pointed at them, and kill the fellow, without taking any return fire. Is it possible that they already had their guns drawn, and possibly pointed too?

barbedwiresmile
07-29-2012, 06:59
There has been talk in this thread about how the police was able to draw and fire on a man with a gun allegedly pointed at them, and kill the fellow, without taking any return fire. Is it possible that they already had their guns drawn, and possibly pointed too?

It's not just possible, it's likely.

Bren
07-29-2012, 08:18
It's not just possible, it's likely.

Yes, it's certainly possible, although it makes no legal difference. However, there are so many cases of police and civilians drawing against an already drawn gun and killing a guy before he fires that we can't assume that from just the fact that the guy didn't fire a shot. It is very common.

I always answer my door with a gun in my hand. The person at the door just doesn't know it.

Terry

Same for many of us. Andrew Scott would still be alive if he did the same.

Bren
11-16-2012, 05:30
And months later, the final update from the prosecutors and FDLE on the investigation of this case, finds the obvious - when you answer the door by pointing a gun at somebody (anybody) they can legally shoot you.

FDLE report: Deputy justified in fatal shooting of Lake County man (http://www.wftv.com/news/news/fdle-deputy-justified-fatal-shooting-man/nSLyd/)

Deputy's shooting of armed Lake man was justified, prosecutors say (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-25/news/os-andrew-scott-shooting-justified-20120925_1_leesburg-fight-criminal-charges-criminal-case)

BlackPaladin
11-16-2012, 07:01
And months later, the final update from the prosecutors and FDLE on the investigation of this case, finds the obvious - when you answer the door by pointing a gun at somebody (anybody) they can legally shoot you.

FDLE report: Deputy justified in fatal shooting of Lake County man (http://www.wftv.com/news/news/fdle-deputy-justified-fatal-shooting-man/nSLyd/)

Deputy's shooting of armed Lake man was justified, prosecutors say (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-25/news/os-andrew-scott-shooting-justified-20120925_1_leesburg-fight-criminal-charges-criminal-case)

Thank you for posting this! In my mind, there was zero counter arguement to this whole ordeal. Since common sense is something lacking these days, it is good to have a final answer to this.

Thumpernator
11-24-2012, 14:35
Not over completely. This is from the first link above.

Scott's family is in the process of filing a wrongful death lawsuit. And WFTV was told that will likely happen in the next three or four weeks.

BlackPaladin
11-24-2012, 14:47
Not over completely. This is from the first link above.

Scott's family is in the process of filing a wrongful death lawsuit. And WFTV was told that will likely happen in the next three or four weeks.

And with any good luck, they will lose this, just like the criminal case. It would be awfully nice if the judge would go a step further and tell the plantiff that their family member was a moron and to take the lesson to heart.

Bren
11-24-2012, 18:50
Not over completely. This is from the first link above.

Scott's family is in the process of filing a wrongful death lawsuit. And WFTV was told that will likely happen in the next three or four weeks.

Well one of my partucular areas of legal expertise is defending these suits against law enforcement. This one would rate an easy, "so what?" It's a summary judgment case that will never get to a jury.

Thumpernator
11-24-2012, 19:32
That's good to hear, Bren! I just don't like to see the officers have any more stress than what they've already endured.

Stupid
11-24-2012, 19:45
Should have never opened the door.

Rule#: never open the door unless you know who they are and what they are here for.

Chesafreak
11-24-2012, 21:25
deleted

jbailey8
11-24-2012, 22:00
I'm with you. I don't answer it unless I recognize the number, if its important leave a message. Its not like your not gonna know you have a message until like 8 hours later. Technology is your friend sometimes. The knock on the door thing seriously baffles me.My voicemail recording says to leave a message only if you're calling from a landline, otherwise send me a text. I'll get it faster and I'll even know what you want and whether or not it's an emergency.

TK-421
11-24-2012, 22:19
This is exactly why you don't open the door pointing a gun at someone. Either have it hidden in your pocket or a holster. I don't think the cops did anything wrong. If I was a cop and knocked on a door and someone answered it pointing a gun at me, you can damn well bet I'd start shooting too. I don't care if he fires first or not, if he is pointing a gun at me, I'm going to assume he's willing to use it, which means I need to use mine first.

Just one more idiot off the streets, good job on the part of the cop.

AZson
11-25-2012, 14:52
Sounds like murder plain and simple. The cops should be tried and given life.

Warp
11-25-2012, 15:19
Sounds like murder plain and simple. The cops should be tried and given life.

I sincerely hope you are joking/trolling.

jdavionic
11-25-2012, 15:33
It would seem to me that yelling through the door that you have dialed 911 and will open the door when they confirm the police outside are legit would have been a solution that could have avoided a tragedy.

It's a challenging topic, and one that I've posted a separate thread on. We have had incidents where people pose as LE to gain entry. I think behaving in a rational manner (e.g., not threatening LE with a firearm) and working with LE can go a long ways in mitigating a lot of risks.

I don't know how they'd react, but I would think that if cops were banging on my door and they heard...
"Look, I have called 911 and am on the phone with the operator right now. As soon as she tells me it's okay, I will lay the firearm on the ground and unlock & open the door for you"....
I would think LEOs would want to avoid a shootout too and would be willing to wait the seconds for this to happen.

Gun Shark
11-25-2012, 15:39
It would seem to me that yelling through the door that you have dialed 911 and will open the door when they confirm the police outside are legit would have been a solution that could have avoided a tragedy.

It's a challenging topic, and one that I've posted a separate thread on. We have had incidents where people pose as LE to gain entry. I think behaving in a rational manner (e.g., not threatening LE with a firearm) and working with LE can go a long ways in mitigating a lot of risks.

I don't know how they'd react, but I would think that if cops were banging on my door and they heard...
"Look, I have called 911 and am on the phone with the operator right now. As soon as she tells me it's okay, I will lay the firearm on the ground and unlock & open the door for you"....
I would think LEOs would want to avoid a shootout too and would be willing to wait the seconds for this to happen.

Why mention anything about a firearm? Other than that. I think I would agree.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

jdavionic
11-25-2012, 15:41
Why mention anything about a firearm? Other than that. I think I would agree.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Good point. I guess that I was just thinking they could have observed that I had one in my hand since I have those windows on each side of the door.

ICARRY2
12-01-2012, 17:48
If it isn't safe to open the door without a gun, I don't open the door.

Best advise I ever heard.

dukeblue91
12-02-2012, 08:31
I don't understand the problem here at all.
You can't just point guns at people for no reason.
If I was a cop I would have shot him too, what else is there to do.
Same goes in reverse if I see someone point a gun at me I'll try to draw and shoot before that person does unless I know they are police.

Arc Angel
12-02-2012, 09:30
Tonights news had a story of a young man who answered his door at night, somebody was pounding on it, he had a gun and brought it with him to open the door. The 2 guys pounding on door don't say anything. True story.

The man opens his door and it's 2 cops who are looking for a murder suspect... they have the wrong unit number... the cops immediately shoot and kill the guy who opened the door.

What would you do if you were the cops? What would you do if you were the man in the apartment?

:upeyes: Already been there and done that! Thirteen or fourteen years ago my Bulldogs alerted me to somebody walking around the house at about 3:00am. I ordered the Bulldogs to be silent, and listened carefully for any sounds. Sure enough, through the open window, I hear someone walking around out on the front lawn.

So, not being particularly alarmed, I get out of bed, and go to the backdoor with a 1911 pattern in my hand. I very quietly open the door and step out into the backyard. Now I could hear even more footsteps. Then I saw the beam of a rather bright flashlight. So I sayz to myself, 'Self, there's only one kind of person arrogant enough to be walking around this property with both heavy footsteps and a flashlight at 3:00 o'clock in the morning - Only one kind of person!'

So, I reached behind my back, opened the door just a crack, and placed my pistol and tac light down on the floor. Not 3 or 4 seconds later, here, the first one comes. Blue uniform, silver badge, hat, drawn gun, and a large handheld flashlight! He looks at me, lights me up, and I ask, 'What are you doing in my backyard?' Typical courteous and conscientious servant of the public that he is, this officer replies, 'Looking for somebody.'

'Unannounced and in my backyard,' I reply? Something moves behind me; I see another light; and, now, I'm standing in the middle of a brightly lit crossfire with a township cop facing me, and two staties at my back. All of them with drawn pistols! A very authoritative sounding voice says, 'Who are you?' I reply, 'I'm the guy who lives here.' So, I get held at gunpoint while my wife fetches my wallet for the nice officers.

After they emphatically identified me, they lowered their pistols, and left with the remark, 'We're looking for your neighbor who lives across the road.' That's nice, I think to myself. I'm a good 6 foot tall, bearded, white as a Saltine, and almost 240#'s. The neighbor these officers were looking for? He's a skinny, dark-skinned Black, about 5'6", and no more than 165 #'s.

For this these moron cops - Who did NOT have a search warrant for this property - held me at gunpoint, at my own home, and at 3:00 o'clock in the morning, while they forced me to emphatically identify myself. As I walked back into the house I thought to myself, 'Well, I guess it's just not my morning to die!' Thank God I was smart enough to correctly figure out what HAD to be going on BEFORE we, all, came face-to-face. :freak:

dukeblue91
12-02-2012, 10:27
:upeyes: Already been there and done that! Thirteen or fourteen years ago my Bulldogs alerted me to somebody walking around the house at about 3:00am. I ordered the Bulldogs to be silent, and listened carefully for any sounds. Sure enough, through the open window, I hear someone walking around out on the front lawn.

So, not being particularly alarmed, I get out of bed, and go to the backdoor with a 1911 pattern in my hand. I very quietly open the door and step out into the backyard. Now I could hear even more footsteps. Then I saw the beam of a rather bright flashlight. So I sayz to myself, 'Self, there's only one kind of person arrogant enough to be walking around this property with both heavy footsteps and a flashlight at 3:00 o'clock in the morning - Only one kind of person!'

So, I reached behind my back, opened the door just a crack, and placed my pistol and tac light down on the floor. Not 3 or 4 seconds later, here, the first one comes. Blue uniform, silver badge, hat, drawn gun, and a large handheld flashlight! He looks at me, lights me up, and I ask, 'What are you doing in my backyard?' Typical courteous and conscientious servant of the public that he is, this officer replies, 'Looking for somebody.'

'Unannounced and in my backyard,' I reply? Something moves behind me; I see another light; and, now, I'm standing in the middle of a brightly lit crossfire with a township cop facing me, and two staties at my back. All of them with drawn pistols! A very authoritative sounding voice says, 'Who are you?' I reply, 'I'm the guy who lives here.' So, I get held at gunpoint while my wife fetches my wallet for the nice officers.

After they emphatically identified me, they lowered their pistols, and left with the remark, 'We're looking for your neighbor who lives across the road.' That's nice, I think to myself. I'm a good 6 foot tall, bearded, white as a Saltine, and almost 240#'s. The neighbor these officers were looking for? He's a skinny, dark-skinned Black, about 5'6", and no more than 165 #'s.

For this these moron cops - Who did NOT have a search warrant for this property - held me at gunpoint, at my own home, and at 3:00 o'clock in the morning, while they forced me to emphatically identify myself. As I walked back into the house I thought to myself, 'Well, I guess it's just not my morning to die!' Thank God I was smart enough to correctly figure out what HAD to be going on BEFORE we, all, came face-to-face. :freak:

Great story and good demonstration of using some common sense.

Warp
12-02-2012, 10:30
:upeyes: Already been there and done that! Thirteen or fourteen years ago my Bulldogs alerted me to somebody walking around the house at about 3:00am. I ordered the Bulldogs to be silent, and listened carefully for any sounds. Sure enough, through the open window, I hear someone walking around out on the front lawn.

So, not being particularly alarmed, I get out of bed, and go to the backdoor with a 1911 pattern in my hand. I very quietly open the door and step out into the backyard. Now I could hear even more footsteps. Then I saw the beam of a rather bright flashlight. So I sayz to myself, 'Self, there's only one kind of person arrogant enough to be walking around this property with both heavy footsteps and a flashlight at 3:00 o'clock in the morning - Only one kind of person!'

So, I reached behind my back, opened the door just a crack, and placed my pistol and tac light down on the floor. Not 3 or 4 seconds later, here, the first one comes. Blue uniform, silver badge, hat, drawn gun, and a large handheld flashlight! He looks at me, lights me up, and I ask, 'What are you doing in my backyard?' Typical courteous and conscientious servant of the public that he is, this officer replies, 'Looking for somebody.'

'Unannounced and in my backyard,' I reply? Something moves behind me; I see another light; and, now, I'm standing in the middle of a brightly lit crossfire with a township cop facing me, and two staties at my back. All of them with drawn pistols! A very authoritative sounding voice says, 'Who are you?' I reply, 'I'm the guy who lives here.' So, I get held at gunpoint while my wife fetches my wallet for the nice officers.

After they emphatically identified me, they lowered their pistols, and left with the remark, 'We're looking for your neighbor who lives across the road.' That's nice, I think to myself. I'm a good 6 foot tall, bearded, white as a Saltine, and almost 240#'s. The neighbor these officers were looking for? He's a skinny, dark-skinned Black, about 5'6", and no more than 165 #'s.

For this these moron cops - Who did NOT have a search warrant for this property - held me at gunpoint, at my own home, and at 3:00 o'clock in the morning, while they forced me to emphatically identify myself. As I walked back into the house I thought to myself, 'Well, I guess it's just not my morning to die!' Thank God I was smart enough to correctly figure out what HAD to be going on BEFORE we, all, came face-to-face. :freak:

That is a lesson in what not to do, for a variety of reasons.

beatcop
12-02-2012, 11:12
Is this thread dead yet?

Assumptions:
-holding a gun in your hand increases your risk of becoming a target
-pointing a gun will result in you having new holes in your body
-leaving a position of relative safetyy to inject yourself in an unknown situation is bad
-have a holster, it makes the firearm more available, concealable, secure, seen a less of a threat than in your hand.

John Rambo
12-02-2012, 11:15
:upeyes: Already been there and done that! Thirteen or fourteen years ago my Bulldogs alerted me to somebody walking around the house at about 3:00am. I ordered the Bulldogs to be silent, and listened carefully for any sounds. Sure enough, through the open window, I hear someone walking around out on the front lawn.

So, not being particularly alarmed, I get out of bed, and go to the backdoor with a 1911 pattern in my hand. I very quietly open the door and step out into the backyard. Now I could hear even more footsteps. Then I saw the beam of a rather bright flashlight. So I sayz to myself, 'Self, there's only one kind of person arrogant enough to be walking around this property with both heavy footsteps and a flashlight at 3:00 o'clock in the morning - Only one kind of person!'

So, I reached behind my back, opened the door just a crack, and placed my pistol and tac light down on the floor. Not 3 or 4 seconds later, here, the first one comes. Blue uniform, silver badge, hat, drawn gun, and a large handheld flashlight! He looks at me, lights me up, and I ask, 'What are you doing in my backyard?' Typical courteous and conscientious servant of the public that he is, this officer replies, 'Looking for somebody.'

'Unannounced and in my backyard,' I reply? Something moves behind me; I see another light; and, now, I'm standing in the middle of a brightly lit crossfire with a township cop facing me, and two staties at my back. All of them with drawn pistols! A very authoritative sounding voice says, 'Who are you?' I reply, 'I'm the guy who lives here.' So, I get held at gunpoint while my wife fetches my wallet for the nice officers.

After they emphatically identified me, they lowered their pistols, and left with the remark, 'We're looking for your neighbor who lives across the road.' That's nice, I think to myself. I'm a good 6 foot tall, bearded, white as a Saltine, and almost 240#'s. The neighbor these officers were looking for? He's a skinny, dark-skinned Black, about 5'6", and no more than 165 #'s.

For this these moron cops - Who did NOT have a search warrant for this property - held me at gunpoint, at my own home, and at 3:00 o'clock in the morning, while they forced me to emphatically identify myself. As I walked back into the house I thought to myself, 'Well, I guess it's just not my morning to die!' Thank God I was smart enough to correctly figure out what HAD to be going on BEFORE we, all, came face-to-face. :freak:

So you let a couple of flatfoots get the drop on you and surround you when you had a homefield advantage?

Sounds like you need to work on your home defense strategies.

Gun Shark
12-02-2012, 12:26
:upeyes: Already been there and done that! Thirteen or fourteen years ago my Bulldogs alerted me to somebody walking around the house at about 3:00am. I ordered the Bulldogs to be silent, and listened carefully for any sounds. Sure enough, through the open window, I hear someone walking around out on the front lawn.

So, not being particularly alarmed, I get out of bed, and go to the backdoor with a 1911 pattern in my hand. I very quietly open the door and step out into the backyard. Now I could hear even more footsteps. Then I saw the beam of a rather bright flashlight. So I sayz to myself, 'Self, there's only one kind of person arrogant enough to be walking around this property with both heavy footsteps and a flashlight at 3:00 o'clock in the morning - Only one kind of person!'

So, I reached behind my back, opened the door just a crack, and placed my pistol and tac light down on the floor. Not 3 or 4 seconds later, here, the first one comes. Blue uniform, silver badge, hat, drawn gun, and a large handheld flashlight! He looks at me, lights me up, and I ask, 'What are you doing in my backyard?' Typical courteous and conscientious servant of the public that he is, this officer replies, 'Looking for somebody.'

'Unannounced and in my backyard,' I reply? Something moves behind me; I see another light; and, now, I'm standing in the middle of a brightly lit crossfire with a township cop facing me, and two staties at my back. All of them with drawn pistols! A very authoritative sounding voice says, 'Who are you?' I reply, 'I'm the guy who lives here.' So, I get held at gunpoint while my wife fetches my wallet for the nice officers.

After they emphatically identified me, they lowered their pistols, and left with the remark, 'We're looking for your neighbor who lives across the road.' That's nice, I think to myself. I'm a good 6 foot tall, bearded, white as a Saltine, and almost 240#'s. The neighbor these officers were looking for? He's a skinny, dark-skinned Black, about 5'6", and no more than 165 #'s.

For this these moron cops - Who did NOT have a search warrant for this property - held me at gunpoint, at my own home, and at 3:00 o'clock in the morning, while they forced me to emphatically identify myself. As I walked back into the house I thought to myself, 'Well, I guess it's just not my morning to die!' Thank God I was smart enough to correctly figure out what HAD to be going on BEFORE we, all, came face-to-face. :freak:

I don't know, something about leaving my locked house to investigate a noise outside seems more than stupid. If my dog ever "alerts" me to people outside my house at night, unless I know them(kids drinking, smoking, that kind of thing), I am not leaving my house, and I will most likely call the police. Why anyone would voluntarily leave the safety of their own home to investigate noises outside their home, is beyond me.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire (http://www.outdoorhub.com/mobile/)

Warp
12-02-2012, 12:29
I don't know, something about leaving my locked house to investigate a noise outside seems more than stupid. If my dog ever "alerts" me to people outside my house at night, unless I know them(kids drinking, smoking, that kind of thing), I am not leaving my house, and I will most likely call the police. Why anyone would voluntarily leave the safety of their own home to investigate noises outside their home, is beyond me.


Agreed.

lawman800
12-02-2012, 12:30
Those damn jackbooted thugs harassed you at your own home in the darkness of night and got away with it? OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arc Angel
12-02-2012, 15:02
'Internet wisdom'! :freak:

You guys don't live here; you have no idea what the problems are with trying to defend this place; but, voila, that doesn't stop some of you from posting your ill-considered and uniformed opinions like you're the last word in all-knowing home-defense strategy. Wow, know what? I'm singularly unimpressed! :upeyes:

What particularly bothers me, though? All the crap guys like you people would post about this incident if I'd been shot and killed that night. If you think I don't realize the official line would have been VERY far from the truth of what actually happened, then you are sadly mistaken. I am MUCH older than that!

(I even knew exactly how some of you were sure to respond to what I posted; and, sure enough, you didn't disappoint me. I'm certain the police kill perfectly innocent people, who are living quietly either in or outside their homes, all of the time; and, according to you guys, it's always the victims' fault; now, isn't it. Well, hey, maybe someday it'll be your turn to suddenly end up facing one of modern society's most frightening police nightmares. Then I'll be able to craptalk about you on the Internet, too.) ;)

TBO
12-02-2012, 15:06
Looks like someone doesn't accept critic well.

Sent from the capacitor of my Taser using Tapatalk 2

Warp
12-02-2012, 15:09
'Internet wisdom'! :freak:

You guys don't live here; you have no idea what the problems are with trying to defend this place; but, voila, that doesn't stop some of you from posting your ill-considered and uniformed opinions like you're the last word in all-knowing home-defense strategy. Wow, know what? I'm singularly unimpressed! :upeyes:

What particularly bothers me, though? All the crap guys like you people would post about this incident if I'd been shot and killed that night. If you think I don't realize the official line would have been VERY far from the truth of what actually happened, then you are sadly mistaken. I am MUCH older than that!

(I even knew exactly how some of you were sure to respond to what I posted; and, sure enough, you didn't disappoint me. I'm certain the police kill perfectly innocent people, who are living quietly either in or outside their homes, all of the time; and, according to you guys, it's always the victims' fault; now, isn't it. Well, hey, maybe someday it'll be your turn to suddenly end up facing one of modern society's most frightening police nightmares. Then I'll be able to craptalk about you on the Internet, too.) ;)

Sorry to disappoint, but I probably wouldn't make such a stupid mistake. ;)

TBO
12-02-2012, 15:10
...and if you did, would you refuse to learn from it?

Sent from the capacitor of my Taser using Tapatalk 2

Warp
12-02-2012, 15:12
...and if you did, would you refuse to learn from it?

Probably not. :supergrin:

Stupid
12-02-2012, 15:25
Why do people feel the need to "answer" their doors is beyond me.

Have all your friends call before they come so that you know who will be at your door.

Once you do that, anybody else at your door would be strangers and up for no good.

Stupid
12-02-2012, 15:28
Why someone would leave the their best cover and look for the best way to get shot is again beyond me.

When you hear stuff going on in your backyard, STAY INSIDE. Have your guns ready and turn on the lights for your backyard if it's safe to do so.

Call 911 from inside of your house if necessary.

Arc Angel
12-02-2012, 15:30
Sorry to disappoint, but I probably wouldn't make such a stupid mistake. ;)

:shocked: Sure you would. I read about them all of the time, right here; and, besides, you and TBO never disappoint me. The both of you are entirely 100% predictable.

Too bad neither one of you hardly ever gets anything right, though; but, quite honestly, I have to give the two of you one thing: When you really don't know what you're talking about, then you've got to be smart enough to stick to reporting stuff like newspaper articles and playing the cynic by putting up as many glib remarks on the board as possible.

(Ya, all, seem so much smarter that way; but, hey, you two already know that - Huh! Now, I'm just, 'preaching to the choir'. Too bad neither one of you can sing.) ;)

TBO
12-02-2012, 15:33
Attacking the messenger, not the message.
Classic sign of a defeated argument.

Stupid
12-02-2012, 15:35
:shocked: Sure you would. I read about them all of the time, right here; and, besides, you and TBO never disappoint me. The both of you are entirely 100% predictable.

Too bad neither one of you hardly ever gets anything right, though; but, quite honestly, I have to give the two of you one thing: When you really don't know what you're talking about, then you've got to be smart enough to stick to reporting stuff like newspaper articles and playing the cynic by putting up as many glib remarks on the board as possible.

(Ya, all, seem so much smarter that way; but, hey, you two already know that - Huh! Now, I'm just, 'preaching to the choir'. Too bad neither one of you can sing.) ;)

How does this contribute anything to the discussion?

Warp
12-02-2012, 15:47
Arc, don't forget to personally insult these guys while you are at it. ;)

I don't know, something about leaving my locked house to investigate a noise outside seems more than stupid. If my dog ever "alerts" me to people outside my house at night, unless I know them(kids drinking, smoking, that kind of thing), I am not leaving my house, and I will most likely call the police. Why anyone would voluntarily leave the safety of their own home to investigate noises outside their home, is beyond me.



So you let a couple of flatfoots get the drop on you and surround you when you had a homefield advantage?

Sounds like you need to work on your home defense strategies.


Also, FYI to anybody reading this...the Adblock I mention in my sig is great. Along with getting rid of every single ad, I can also use it to make animations and images disappear. Example: I assume Arc Angel still has that annoying wing flapping thing, but I never see it anymore because I right clicked on it to tell Adlbock that I don't want to see it any more. ;)

Arc Angel
12-02-2012, 16:39
:upeyes: Yup, I lost; you guys win; and more and more, 'wolves' seem to be attracted to the fray; but, what the Hell, this is cyberspace; and the integrity and competence of your brother officers is being questioned. (Do I have it, now!) :supergrin:

Adblock probably is the right way to go - Especially if it filters out the most contagious strains of, 'internet stupid'. THEN, I definitely want one. I guess I've just got to learn how to take internet advice from people who ain't never been there, don't really know, and are perfectly comfortable running their mouths regardless of either honesty or accuracy. (How am I doing, guys!) :cool:

Why do I have this feeling that I've already met some of you, or, at least, run into your presumptuous attitudes before? Was it, by any chance, in my own backyard? (The one that you internet experts know how to defend so much better than I do - Hmmm .... .)

Hey, let's not forget, I got to see the sun come up that morning. Are any of you internet geniuses positive that you could do the same without, say, flashing your badge or wearing your uniform? (Oh, wait, of course you are! You're, all, internet home defense experts!) :freak:

That's it boys and girls. I'm out 'a here. You're too much for me; or, maybe, it's the stupidity. If this is a just universe I hope that what happened to me, someday happens to you. I'd be curious to see whether or not any of you, 'home security experts' are able to see tomorrow in the same way that I did.




PS: Right now I feel so sorry for the people who had to go through Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. Between the, 'good guys', and the (more obvious) bad guys, trying to survive must have been so hard for them. It's the times we're living in, though; isn't it.

emt1581
12-02-2012, 17:48
Tonights news had a story of a young man who answered his door at night, somebody was pounding on it, he had a gun and brought it with him to open the door. The 2 guys pounding on door don't say anything. True story.

The man opens his door and it's 2 cops who are looking for a murder suspect... they have the wrong unit number... the cops immediately shoot and kill the guy who opened the door.

What would you do if you were the cops?

What would you do if you were the man in the apartment?

I didn't read through all the replies but here is my .02...

Personally, I have been fortunate enough not to have anyone pound on my door at o'dark thirty. However, where we used to live we would hear commotion all the time as it was a block away from the projects. First thing we did was turn off the lights inside. Next we'd take a peek to see what was going on. There was only a few times that it was close to turning into a "get off my lawn" situation and by that time the cops were there anyway.

Where we are now it's pretty much the nicest part of town. If I were to hear pounding at the door...if I'm up, I already have my pistol(s) on me. If it sounds like they are trying to break down the door I have my rifle and shotgun close to the bed.

However, when actually entertaining the idea of answering the door...that seems like a social interaction/gesture. In other words, you want to see who is there and either greet them or ask what they want. If not, why are you opening the door? If they mean to do you harm and you have the ability, first call the cops and go from there to do whatever it takes to protect you and yours.

That being said, since I'm always carrying whenever clothed I always answer the door with a gun. If I'm just in a robe the gun is either in a pocket or I'll see who it is, open the door, and have the gun in hand out of sight behind the door.

If you see two uniformed cops, why would you aim the gun at them? The original post does not say he necessarily did but I'm thinking it is implied as most cops wouldn't draw/fire just because someone was just holding/carrying a gun.

Yet another reason I'm glad I live where I do. No way I'd ever live in an apartment building or a city. Not my cup of tea and this is just one reason why.

-Emt1581

BlackPaladin
12-10-2012, 02:58
:
That's it boys and girls. I'm out 'a here.

Take those sand crusted panties with you.

Bren
12-10-2012, 05:14
I didn't read through all the replies but here is my .02...
...-Emt1581

If you had read the replies, you'd have seen that what UneasyRider posted was an intentionally misleading version of the story - kind of an MSNBC summary. For example, he changed a few words - like where the police knocked on the guys door and waited for him to answer, he makes it "pounded" to make it seem like the guy should be alarmed. (Wait, "knocked and didn't say anything"? - that's what the pizza guy does when he bring my pizza.) Then he said the guy "had a gun with him," intentionally levaing out the fact that he pointed it at a police officer before they shot him.

See, Glocktalkers will lie to you, just like MSNBC and the Huffington Post....but more often.