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CanyonMan
07-19-2012, 10:08
Well, Things I should be doing, but I need a break here for a few minutes, so...

All the years I have shot glocks, (especially 10mm's) I have always used the stock barrel for my 200gr hard cast bullet from BT. I have had nothing but excellent results from these OEM barrels, and excellent accuracy even out at very long "play time" range, and very good hunting accuracy at 100yds. for deer (when needed). No problems except the Glock hog belly (swelled case) at 6'oclock.

Well, I already have a stock length LW and the other day, (as some of you know), I orderd a KKM for the G29 stock length, just for grins, as I 'am not' a AM barrel fan. But I did any way.

Ok, My 200gr BT WFNGC seated at "any where" between 1.250 to 1.265/.68 'will NOT' go in the chamber all the way.

3/4 of the case is sticking out of the chamber.

For those who do not know my loading habits, let me just for time sake say that, the cases go through the RCBS sizer die that is .1K under size and takes all the swell out, then a slight flare at the case mouth so small it is almost not there. Then the powder and bullet seating to MY COAL, and then run through the Lee FCD. (the last step I can take or leave) I have had good results with it on some cartriges so I use it at times..

Now, the OEM's shoot these like a machine gun.. Bam Bam Bam. NEVER once a problem.

I step out yesterday with the NEW KKM and notice they ALL stick out the chamber. Same on the LW as well...




Let me say this... ALL these cases were Brand NEW brass from WW, and from DT nickle plated brass, ALL new , unfired, and still resized as per above... NO Previous Glock fired cases were used......






Now all I hear from those on GT is how they are shooting BB and and other factory HC bullets with a WFN, and shooting their own handloads as well with a WFN, including BT, and and through KKM's and LW's.

Even McNett in his older post, test these types of bullets through KKM/LW and shoots his own HC through them as well, as do some of you...

Not in my KKM or LW. No way. Won't fit. :faint:

I would have to seat that bullet to almost 1.240 or less to get it to "plop" in, this of course has destroyed my pet loads of 14 years, as I have no more case space to load my fav's.


SOOOO,

Let's hear how you guys are gettng thes bullets to seat all the way in your chamber, and shoot !

No, it is NOT my hand loading practice's :supergrin: so we can leave that one out. HA ! It is how ever, in these two barrels, the fact that where the case mouth seats in the chamber against the chamber rim/stop ring, this space (chamber) is not 'long enough' to allow MY loads to fit, until I get down to 1.240 and that is just to short, and has no place in my loadings to be of use to get my vels from my OEM usual of 1.260 to 1.268. 1300fps with my recipie.


OK, stories, thoughts, how comes, why's, what is YOUR experience, and especially any one that has a "RECENT" KKM/LW purchace, and is able to shoot a WFNGC hand load, or a factory BB 'and it seats perfectly' in your chamber...

I know I can send them both back to KKM/LW and have them reamed back, as I spent much phone time with both of them yesterday, and KNEW this was what they would have to do in order to fix the problem, BUT, should not have been this way in the first place... NOT A RANT here.. I like all the folks at both places, and have a very good friend at LW (personal friend), so 'NO Rants', just want to know what y'alls experiences with this are ! ;)


Man, what a week here ! :faint:



There ya go !



Thanks !





CM

dm1906
07-19-2012, 10:53
Well, Things I should be doing, but I need a break here for a few minutes, so...

All the years I have shot glocks, (especially 10mm's) I have always used the stock barrel for my 200gr hard cast bullet from BT. I have had nothing but excellent results from these OEM barrels, and excellent accuracy even out at very long "play time" range, and very good hunting accuracy at 100yds. for deer (when needed). No problems except the Glock hog belly (swelled case) at 6'oclock.

Well, I already have a stock length LW and the other day, (as some of you know), I orderd a KKM for the G29 stock length, just for grins, as I 'am not' a AM barrel fan. But I did any way.

Ok, My 200gr BT WFNGC seated at "any where" between 1.250 to 1.265/.68 'will NOT' go in the chamber all the way.

3/4 of the case is sticking out of the chamber.

For those who do not know may loading habits, let me just for time sake say that, the cases go through the RCBS sizer die that is .1K under size and takes all the swell out, then a slight flare at the case mouth so small it is almost not there. Then the powder and bullet seating to MY COAL, and then run through the Lee FCD. (the last step I can take or leave) I have had good results with it on some cartriges so I use it at times..

Now, the OEM's shoot these like a machine gun.. Bam Bam Bam. NEVER once a problem.

I step out yesterday with the NEW KKM and notice they ALL stick out the chamber. Same on the LW as well...




Let me say this... ALL these cases were Brand NEW brass from WW, and from DT nickle plated brass, ALL new , nfires, and still resized as per above... NO Previous Glock fired cases were used......






Now all I hear from those on GT is how they are shooting BB and and other factory HC bullets with a WFN, and shooting their own handloads as well with a WFN, including BT, and and through KKM's and LW's.

Even McNett in his older post, test these types of bullets through KKM/LW and shoots his own HC through them as well, as do some of you...

Not in my KKM or LW. No way. Won't fit. :faint:

I would have to seat that bullet to almost 1.240 or less to get it to "plop" in, this of course has destroyed my pet loads of 14 years, as I have no more case space to load my fav's.


SOOOO,

Let's hear how you guys are gettng thes bullets to seat all the way in your chamber, and shoot !

No, it is NOT my hand loading practice's :supergrin: so we can leave that one out. HA ! It is how ever, in these two barrels, the fact that where the case mouth seats in the chamber against the chamber rim/stop ring, this space (chamber) is not 'long enough' to allow MY loads to fit, until I get down to 1.240 and that is just to short, and has no place in my loadings to be of use to get my vels from my OEM usual of 1.260 to 1.268. 1300fps with my recipie.


OK, stories, thoughts, how comes, why's, what is YOUR experience, and especially any one that has a "RECENT" KKM/LW purchace, and is able to shoot a WFNGC hand load, or a factory BB 'and it seats perfectly' in your chamber...

I know I can send them both back to KKM/LW and have them reamed back, as I spent much phone time with both of them yesterday, and KNEW this was what they would have to do in order to fix the problem, BUT, should not have been this way in the first place... NOT A RANT here.. I like all the folks at both places, and have a very good friend at LW (personal friend), so 'NO Rants', just want to know what y'alls experiences with this are ! ;)


Man, what a week here ! :faint:



There ya go !



Thanks !





CM

The DT round of the same bullet seats them to 1.243", for this reason. The BT 200 gr. WFNGC bullet has a wide meplat, and a fat radius ogive, which is the problem in aftermarket chambers. The barrels were not originally designed to shoot this bullet at full length. The only options that remain are, shorten the cartridge, ream the barrel(s), or choose another bullet (in no specific order). The barrel mfg's produce a chamber that will suit 99% of their market. You are the 1% (you're special). This goes to prove, try as you might, you just can't please everyone. If it were me, and I were really stuck on that round, I'd have one, or both barrels (not at the same time) reamed, and move along, fat, dumb and happy.

dm1906
07-19-2012, 10:54
Hey, CM. Welcome back!

CanyonMan
07-19-2012, 11:38
Hey, CM. Welcome back!


Hey amigo, Thank you very much for the welcome back, The kind words and post on the other thread of Nick's, and the info here... ;)

Yeh, as I said, I knew I was going to have one of them "reamed." I just 'did not know' that they were making them this way, as I always use OEM with really great results on all my cast loadings.. So "I knew the solution", but did not know if it was just "ME" getting the Luck of the draw barrels that would not have the chamber length I needed, or if ALL of them were cut this way... ha.


Well, as you said, "I am special..." Ha Ha ! Well said !



Well, then here is the plan. #1. Learn to stay with my convictions. ( I should not have bought an AM barrel) Ha.

#2.. Ask before I buy !

#3.. Let LW ream the barrel to work with my "pet load" BT 200gr bullet, I load at 1.260/1.263 'to be real specific', for my best (OEM) results at 1300fps. And leave the KKM alone since it does handle the 200gr XTP's and all copper jacketed stuff real well in the G29. There. All fixed. :supergrin:

#4.. Continue to use my "old faithful' OEM in the G20 which has an unusually tight chmaber and leaves very little hog belly (buldge) on the brass which my .1K under Size die wipes right out. Been shooting them from this for a loooong time and NO problems at all.


Only really use it (G20) as a "saddle bag" back up gun out here on the ranch, with the mags loaded with the 200gr BT, and some times when in the mood a deer or somethin. I wanted to toss the little G29 in the truck with the several other guns... haha, just to have it there if I wanted it for some ctritter runing across the place, or for an ocasional 'take to town ' gun.

Well amigo, thanks. I just did not know they were making them like this. I hear sooo very many folks on here saying they shoot HC bullets like BB, and hand loads like BT and etc, through their AM barrels, so I figured it was all good to go and I'd give it a try.

I had an AM LW waaaay back some time ago, and I guess i never shot the HC through it. Got rid of it, and then later on, again, bought the "present" LW stock length, and 'the other day' bought the KKM, and have not really played with it much except for jacketd stuff, then yesterday tried my HC hand loads and :wow: 1/4 of the case sticking out the chambers on both, but ploped right down into the OEM's ! haha.

Just wondered 'HOW everyone else was getting away with this' I reckon was the reason for the post.

Well, we'll ream the LW, leave the KKM alone and just shoot Jacketed bullets from it in the G29, and carry on!


Thanks dm1906 !
Stay safe my friend !











CM

Meathead9
07-19-2012, 18:15
My LWD barrel didn't like 200gr WFNGC's out past 1.25", but I sent it back and it feeds them @ 1.26" flawlessly now. The only time I ever had a problem where the cases were sticking out that far, was when LWD sent me a Blindmarked (and mismarked) 10-40 barrel that should have been just a regular 10mm barrel.

CanyonMan
07-19-2012, 19:03
My LWD barrel didn't like 200gr WFNGC's out past 1.25", but I sent it back and it feeds them @ 1.26" flawlessly now. The only time I ever had a problem where the cases were sticking out that far, was when LWD sent me a Blindmarked (and mismarked) 10-40 barrel that should have been just a regular 10mm barrel.


Wow ! "mismarked" ain't good ! Well, I loaded some BT WFNGC Dummy rounds up today while I had a few seconds, and even at 1.270 (that is a stretch) for grins, it went right on in the OEM G20.

I have to drop down all the way to 1.240 to barely get a good "plop" into the chamber on the LW and the KKM. I cannot deal with that COAL and my current loading without building up waaaaay to much pressure. :wow:

According to LW (talking to a friend of mine there) They were freaked out that I am having NO feed problems (with jacketed bullets) of any kind size weight or shape, up to 200grs in my LW barrel as tight as 'this' particular chamber is. The LW is waaaay tighter than the KKM. Man I am talking really weird tight, and almost not a speck of six o' clock exposed... Really tight. Yet never a problem with hot jacketed stuff. :dunno:

It is one of the older LW's. The newer ones have had the chambers opened 'ever so slightly', like KKM told me 'they did' also, for better feeding/relibility, and especially (said KKM) for those who want to conceal carry with their barrel and not worry about reliablity issues. I do believe this, as there is a world of difference in the LW "I have" for the G20 and the KKM in case support and chamber fit... I do NOT have one of the newer LW's (obviously).

I have decided that since my LW shoots so dang good with all manner of jacketed bullets, I will just send LW a dummy round for my 200 gr BT load at 1.260 ( I can live with that) and buy another barrel from them, and have them ream it to work with the HC.. That way nothing will/might /could/ go south with the one I got now that shoots and feeds perfectly and is extremely accurate.

I knew I would have to have reaming done at the outset. I just wrote this thread to ask how many others are having the same problem, since all I seem to hear is how folks are shooting DT, BT, nd other WFN 'hand loads especially,' through these barrels with out a hitch. Unless they are seating them down to 1.240 or less.. That is just to deep IMO for a 200gr bullet that is loaded for hunting or loaded hot.


Well MH, I thank ya amigo for the reply, and glad you got things taken care of there with your barrel. I wish I would have just left everything alone, and not got on the AM benge, as I was doing fine all these years with the OEM..

Well, get an itch and ya scratch it I reckon ! haha.


Good shooting
Stay safe pard.







CM

_The_Shadow
07-19-2012, 21:06
Yea I think the free bore is tighter on those AM barrels and those WFN bullets are touching the short free bore untill you seat them down to allow the space required to feed.

Good luck!

Yondering
07-19-2012, 21:38
Yep, either a short/tight throat, or just the chamber is too tight for cast bullets. My LW barrel was that way; it wouldn't take .401" cast bullets with most brass. I lapped the chamber using a couple pieces of fired brass, no issues now. You only need to remove a couple thousandths, so it's an easy job.

I firelapped mine too, to open up the throat a bit. The LW rifling needs some smoothing anyway. CM, being a sixgun guy, I assume you're familiar with firelapping, using your cast bullets? You'll have to open up the chamber first, of course.

Any Cal.
07-20-2012, 02:42
My LW barrel is one of the better supported ones as well, and I had to open up the chamber to make it run hardcast well. I did it with a fired case like Yondering said, and then some sandpaper on a dowel to polish, and it works fine now. The idea of keeping one for jacketed is good, but the new one you get may have really poor case support, which would sort of defeat the purpose of buying a new barrel...

I preferred the factory barrel originally, but having an extended length that feeds anything and adds a bit of fps is pretty tough to beat.

CanyonMan
07-20-2012, 08:54
Yea I think the free bore is tighter on those AM barrels and those WFN bullets are touching the short free bore untill you seat them down to allow the space required to feed.

Good luck!



Pretty much right on.. Throat is just to tight !

I just can't justify seating that 200gr with 'my' loading down to 1.240. Plus I am in no mood to work up a new load... haha. I like to find what works for me and then 'settle in,' and just stay there. I'm kinda boring that way. Ha!

All my revolver loads are in my head, and 'settled in' waaaay back years ago, and that, as they say, is that. Same with the 10mm (I don't use it to often) I got two pet loads, and you and Nick got me started on looking at LS powder, so now I have worked up a load for that, and I am done.

Then came the AM barrel issue with the HC. But as I said, my OEM has, for all these years worked perfectly and with tremendous accuracy on my 1300fps hand loads, with HC, so my tail is still waggin, I'm happy, and am not real concerned over all this. ;)

The 10mm is just a saddle bag emergency gun anyway, for the most part.


Well amigo, thanks ! I guess the industry figures on more jacketed stuff being used than HC so they expect a few to be sent back for reaming, or folks can do it themselves... :dunno:



Stay safe !









CM

WeeWilly
07-20-2012, 09:41
I have a few KKM barrels. One has so little freebore, I litterally can't load any of my cast loads. To get cast to work in that barrel my OAL's are ridiculous. Another one of my KKM barrels came with so much freebore, I can load just about anything, as long as I want, similar to a stock barrel.

I believe KKM will make the barrel anyway you want. It seems the defaults are the lands pretty close to the chamber and a throat right at the bottom SAAMI spec. I think the barrel I got that has all the freebore maybe was one they cut for someone that ended up not getting shipped. Guess which one of my KKM barrelks gets the most use?

CanyonMan
07-20-2012, 09:42
Yep, either a short/tight throat, or just the chamber is too tight for cast bullets. My LW barrel was that way; it wouldn't take .401" cast bullets with most brass. I lapped the chamber using a couple pieces of fired brass, no issues now. You only need to remove a couple thousandths, so it's an easy job.

I firelapped mine too, to open up the throat a bit. The LW rifling needs some smoothing anyway. CM, being a sixgun guy, I assume you're familiar with firelapping, using your cast bullets? You'll have to open up the chamber first, of course.



Yep, Like I just replied to Shadow, the throat area is just to tight for the .401, and the 'Ogive' of that fat WFN bullet.

No problem on a "do it yourself fix." In my situation, I have 'no real need' for the HC in the G29 KKM. If so, it has done well with the OEM also. So, I will just leave it alone, and shoot it with the KKM in it 'as is' with jacketed stuff, or pop the OEM back in for HC. (which would be "pretty rare", cause I would just use the G20 if I want to shoot HC).

As for the G20 LW barrel I've had here for a long time, well, as I said, I 'just now' am discovering it doesn't like the HC.

Truly just have not messed with it that much, except to know that with the jacketed stuff it is a tack driver even at very long range, and at 100yds a real winner in the accuracy department, so if it ain't broke........ ;)


I got to much going on at present out here to really mess with it right now, and although it is no big deal, it will be 'one more thing' I don't have to do at present. HaHa..

I really rather just keep my present LW as is, since it is "one" in 'Lord knows how many' that shoots so dang well in every area with jacketed stuff. See I had it hand picked, and the barrel crowed 'the way I wanted it' long ago, and had some other things I wanted my way with it, and they did a great job at LW and man this puppy really is a keeper. So we'll leave him alone.. Ha. (I just did not figure 'at that time' about it 'not going to like' the .401 HC) :faint:

I'm like you in the fact that I'd rather do it myself.. ha. But at present, all I can pass off on someone else to do, I will ! ha. Just got to many irons in the fire out here pard.


Thus the reason to just allow my bud at LW to pick me out a good one with me sending in a few of my resized cases/dummy HC loads, and let him ream it and send it to me for a HC only barrel... Simple way out for me here. I don't use them enough any way to warrant any futher work or attention. If they'll hit clay pigeons at 100yds, that works for me. :supergrin:


Fire lapping... ? Yes sir ! You learn about that and throat diameter/s, and forcing cone angle and distance to cylinder, when ya pick up your first hog leg, "if your a serious pistolero." :supergrin:


This little senerio of mine here, does't really have need of any of that, and I am sitting pretty with everything in the accuracy department, so I will just take my lesson's learned in all this, and go on. Namely. I did not need an AM barrel ! Ha. Although the G20 LW "I have now," does have the edge over the OEM in the jacketed dept, I can still use the G20 OEM in the HC dept, and it is a very good shooter.

This gets to compilcated, and it ain't fun any more ! haha.




Thanks amigo !
Good shooting.










CM

CanyonMan
07-20-2012, 10:06
My LW barrel is one of the better supported ones as well, and I had to open up the chamber to make it run hardcast well. I did it with a fired case like Yondering said, and then some sandpaper on a dowel to polish, and it works fine now. The idea of keeping one for jacketed is good, but the new one you get may have really poor case support, which would sort of defeat the purpose of buying a new barrel...

I preferred the factory barrel originally, but having an extended length that feeds anything and adds a bit of fps is pretty tough to beat.



Yep, like you, I got a really tight fit in the entire chamber area, and as I (think i said) also in the six 'o clock area as well, but it feeds excellent !

You and Yondering, (as I told him above) are 'correct' in the fact that I can "fix" the issue easily. But (see post above) in 'this case', as long as I send in a sized case and dummy HC load to LW, (which I already talked to them about all this) he will see to it I get a good fit and all will be well for the HC the way I have described what I want to him.

As I told Yodering, all this gets to complicated and it just ain't fun any more ! haha.


I'll let ya know how the 'new one" turns out for the HC. I am sure it will be fine, especially sending in my sized case and dummy HC round. Just don't want to mess with the LW I 'already have', as it is as close to perfect as I've seen in a long time in a semi auto barrel. (with the jacketed stuff).

My real issue here, is just findng out after all this time, that these AM barrels are not geared for the type of HC we seem to like and shoot. I must admit, that my reason is I have never been interested in them, (AM's) and always used OEM with outstanding results. I ordered the LW for the G20, (as described above to Yondering) 'my way' with some things I wanted done, waaay back, and just never messed with it to much except a few times here and there with jacketed stuff.
But amigo, it shoots to good to mess with at this point ! ;)

Glad you got one as well with a really snug fit.. Keep it ! I'll let y'all know how the 'HC only' one turns out.



Thanks Any Cal !
Stay safe amigo !









CM

CanyonMan
07-20-2012, 10:20
I have a few KKM barrels. One has so little freebore, I litterally can't load any of my cast loads. To get cast to work in that barrel my OAL's are ridiculous. Another one of my KKM barrels came with so much freebore, I can load just about anything, as long as I want, similar to a stock barrel.

I believe KKM will make the barrel anyway you want. It seems the defaults are the lands pretty close to the chamber and a throat right at the bottom SAAMI spec. I think the barrel I got that has all the freebore maybe was one they cut for someone that ended up not getting shipped. Guess which one of my KKM barrelks gets the most use?

Yep, and yep..


Well, I am sure finding out here in this thread, that I am not the only one with this "no HC" problem... ha.

I hear ya on the 'very short' COAL. Man I just cannot run down to 1.240 with my particular loading and 200gr HC without creating a nuclear bomb ! haha

All this stuff can be fixed easily with do it yourself, as we have talked about here with a few other guys on this thread, or just take my lazy way out.. Actually I am just not wanting to mess with my already good shooter LW.

Ordering another LW the way 'I want it' is a time saver for me, for only 125.00, I think it is. I really don't need to do that either, as the OEM in the G20 is an excellent shooter at about any range I've tried it on out out here in the canyons.

Well, I am sorry for the old boy that did not get his barrel from KKM, but glad you got it ! haha. Enjoy it amigo !



Thanks man!
Stay safe WW !










CM

nickE10mm
07-20-2012, 14:04
Great thread, btw, guys!

I'd have to agree with dm and shadow... "The only options that remain are, shorten the cartridge, ream the barrel(s), or choose another bullet (in no specific order)." and "too little throat".

I, personally, had no toubles with LSWC or BTB in my stock length Barsto G20. Never had any issues with any of my other AM barrels, either, with WFN (Federal, Barsto, KKM, LW, Fusion). Guess I was just lucky! I do usually set my BTB's to about 1.24x.... maiinly because my Fusion mag doesn't like 1.26" btb loads... they jam up the mag.

CanyonMan
07-20-2012, 16:23
Great thread, btw, guys!

I'd have to agree with dm and shadow... "The only options that remain are, shorten the cartridge, ream the barrel(s), or choose another bullet (in no specific order)." and "too little throat".

I, personally, had no toubles with LSWC or BTB in my stock length Barsto G20. Never had any issues with any of my other AM barrels, either, with WFN (Federal, Barsto, KKM, LW, Fusion). Guess I was just lucky! I do usually set my BTB's to about 1.24x.... maiinly because my Fusion mag doesn't like 1.26" btb loads... they jam up the mag.



Howdy Nick ole bud... Hope your doin well amigo !

Yeh, when I saw this "jam" in the new KKM G29, with the HC bullets, and then went and got the LW out of the safe, and 'same thing,' I knew I was in for some 'reaming' etc, to make things work.

Since you've most likely read a bunch of the thread, ya already know my thoughts and plans no doubt.

I am going to "wring out" the G29 KKM tomorrow with a number of loads and bullet weights and powders, and see how well he is in the feeding and accuray depat. If he passes the test, then I will just leave him in the gun, and do as I said above to the other guys. I'll just have Dan at LW take my Dummy loaded 1.260 200gr BT WFNGC, and make it work in a new barrel and check A to Z for me, and then I will have a different crown put on it, and be good to go with an AM for 'all cast shooting' in the G20.

Again, always got the OEM G20 as well, which at 100yds with a good Jacketed bullet takes Texas deer, and pops clay pigeons ! Can't find fault there my friend. ;)


Man I don't know if we can allow you in our elite club of those who have AM barrels that won't/would not shoot HC bullets..

ALL yours work ! haha. Buy a new one in a different brand and see if you can join our ranks of misfits and barrel reamers ! :tongueout:

Hey amigo, glad that all yours came through for ya... :cool:


Thanks Nick !
I'll let ya'll know how all the max and a tad over max loads worked out in the morning, with the KKM in the G29..

Will be shooting short range 25 yds, to long range 100yds, for serious accuracy. And then playing at Blanco Canyon behind the house here, at out to 300 yds on caliche rocks up against a giant red clay canyon wall for grins to see what it will do. You KNOW when you hit them, it is like an exploding sack of flour ! haha.

180gr XTP's with 10.1grs 800X.
180grs XTP's with 10.7grs Blue Dot.
180gr XTP's with 9.5grs Long Shot.
200gr XTP's with 9.2grs Long Shot.
200gr XTP's with 10.5grs Blue Dot

I double checked all these before I typed them this time.. :supergrin:


One of the favorite places here on the ranch for shooting out to 600 yds. A very "Humbling place..." haha.


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/Picture007.jpg


So, we will see tomorrow, If it don't rain, (and I really hope it does) we need it, and forgot what it looked like ha. And will let y'all know.


Stay safe amigo Nick !


Buenos Tardes'








CM

_The_Shadow
07-20-2012, 18:53
CM, I wish I were closer, I'd run over and give you a hand...anyway will be on the look out for the range report! Enjoy! :2gun:

CanyonMan
07-20-2012, 20:02
CM, I wish I were closer, I'd run over and give you a hand...anyway will be on the look out for the range report! Enjoy! :2gun:

Hey your welcome to come "give me a hand" shootin any time at all. You would really like this "canyon wall shotting. It breaks up all the bordem of the steel plates... ha. Just like shooting sacks of flour.

Hard to tell from the pic above, but there is plenty of space down below (from the high rim I am on with the camera) to shoot from point blank, backing all the way back through a "cut" we got dozed through the mesquite and cactus, to shoot about 300 yds. Then, on up to the ridge to shoot the 400/600yd stuff... If'in ya can! ;)

Like I said, this should be called canyon 'humble.' :supergrin:

Many places on the ranch to shoot, but this is one of the safest for livestock sake. Shooting cuttin horses would not make your day no matter how great your gun worked ! haha.

Here is my son at the gate 'behind the ranch house': There are also (as you can see) some very good places up in the mountain run offs to shoot as well. There is no lack of space here to shoot and play.. But mostly work ! ;)


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/Topo-and-plants-Jan-17-20041-1.jpg


Thanks amigo ! Any time at all !










CM

nickE10mm
07-20-2012, 20:31
CM, thanks for the beautiful pics.... can't wait to hear about your shooting event!

I'm actually going to the range in the morning to wring out the Fusion and G29 with about half a case of handloads... no chrony but still should be fun. I'm supposed to be meeting "Gator" from here on the forums for the first time. Maybe he'll let me shoot his JPoint G20!! :P

CanyonMan
07-20-2012, 20:39
CM, thanks for the beautiful pics.... can't wait to hear about your shooting event!

I'm actually going to the range in the morning to wring out the Fusion and G29 with about half a case of handloads... no chrony but still should be fun. I'm supposed to be meeting "Gator" from here on the forums for the first time. Maybe he'll let me shoot his JPoint G20!! :P


Thanks Nick !

Man sounds like fun for you tomorrow, and like you, as you know, I am chrony poor at present till I can replace the sucker.. But should know all I want to know without it any way..

Pretty cool that your metting with Gator. Seems like a nice guy on here. I hope you two have a great time tomorrow and it's always cool to meet a new bud, especialy who likes shooting ! ;)


Just had to drop in that "Fusion' didn't ya ! :whistling:


Have fun amigo..
Y'all stay safe


Let's hear from you over here as well, feel free man.

I do hope it rains on us tomorrow, as we need it more than real bad, if so, i will have to wait. Hope it rains all week slow and steady and light. If not, I'll be out blastin away.


adios..




CM

nickE10mm
07-20-2012, 20:44
Cm, I got a good chuckle on one of your posts you said "I an wait to go shooting tomorrow... Unless it rains, and I hope it rains". lol. I feel the same way. I'd trade a shooting day for a nice rainy or cool fall day. This heat is wearing on all of us. I often think about ya down there in the south...

Anyways, yea, I HAVE a chrono but nowhere to set it up tomorrow. Boohoo!!

Excited to meet a fellow shooter, too. Should be good. :)

CanyonMan
07-21-2012, 15:36
nickE10mm;19218837]Cm, I got a good chuckle on one of your posts you said "I can't wait to go shooting tomorrow.. Unless it rains, and I hope it rains". lol. I feel the same way. I'd trade a shooting day for a nice rainy or cool fall day. This heat is wearing on all of us. I often think about ya down there in the south...
Anyways, yea, I HAVE a chrono but nowhere to set it up tomorrow. Boohoo!!
Excited to meet a fellow shooter, too. Should be good.


Well Nick and every one... I wish it would have rained out here.. It is 105 degress and the place will catch on fire from a guy with a high fever ! Which I got from today's shooting session..



Let's look at all the crappy things that happened today !

Quoting my post above.. # 16


Thanks Nick !
I'll let ya'll know how all the max and a tad over max loads worked out in the morning, with the KKM in the G29..

Will be shooting short range 25 yds, to long range 100yds, for serious accuracy. And then playing at Blanco Canyon behind the house here, at out to 300 yds on caliche rocks up against a giant red clay canyon wall for grins to see what it will do. You KNOW when you hit them, it is like an exploding sack of flour ! haha.

180gr XTP's with 10.1grs 800X.
180grs XTP's with 10.7grs Blue Dot.
180gr XTP's with 9.5grs Long Shot.
200gr XTP's with 9.2grs Long Shot.
200gr XTP's with 10.5grs Blue Dot




OK..


With the NEW KKM barrel I could not have hit the inside of the tack room if I had been in it ! 4"/6" groups at 15yds apporx, and really worse at 25yds. SOOOOO, I knew buy this time there would be NO long range shooting today, so I tried a few more of the "above loads..."

Some where in the middle of 9.2 LS and 200gr XTP, something sounded funny. I stopped to take a look see...

Now understand. I did not start hand loading yesterday, nor shooting guns everyday of my life since i was 10 years old and reloading close to 45 years. On the ranch I shoot everyday, barring a really hard work day and no time.

I am ONLY saying all this to build up my story... Not being smart, honestly. haha.

I said all that to say, I load everything I load for bar none, one at a time and ona a RCBS balance scale, and doule check on a RCBS electroinc scale or vice versa... Been using their balance beam scale 'since I first started...'

Now, every stage is always inspected and double checked. SO, I have NOT, (don't care what anyone thinks.. politely speaking) had any "my fault" problems but maybe once or twice (and they were nothing really) in ALL these years. Not bad when ya shoot every day and shoot hundreds of rounds a week for all these years..

Hang on, I'm just baiting you all... HA!

Remember I said a minute ago, "I bent down to take a look see" Well, after the funny noise, I found a split case (everything shot today was brand new in the bag brass from WW and DT)


So I continued to waste my time trying to even hit the canyon wall, haha, much less any clays, rocks, targets, steel, etc... I di well to hit the ground !

Now, I can honestly say, "This is the first time I have EVER shot this bad since I was between 10 and 11 years old, and that was about 51 years ago !!!

So after thinking I had surely lost my touch, or maybe never had it, haha, and all these years had been a dream or something. Taking deer at 100yds with a G20, and further with Hog legs, and never any scopes, and all the cool things zi thought I had done, I knew this is either me (duh) or the barrel ! But NO barrel could be this crappy !!!

OH YEH ..

Well when I bent down to get the piece of brass that came from the shot that "sounded funny," I picked up a bunch of others, I had just fired as well.


Here they are from a NEW KKM barrel:

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/0721021525.jpg

If ya look hard enough you can not only see the one that "split." but also they all have hog belly's (OEM looking brass buldge, and bad at six o' clock ! Just like most older OEM Glocks ! Eaiser to see in person..

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/0721021528.jpg


Now, that ain't all. After all my braggin that I have never had a Glock jam, FTF/ FTE, mess up on me etc.. (except for a G20years ago with FACTORY WW ammo that blew up the whole gun,

Here is a quick few of that:

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/pics002-2.jpg



OK.. Moving right along to today again...


While shooting another one of the above loads, I forget now which one because of anger and heat stroke... HA ! My trigger failed to reset !?? So, I dropped the mag, and pulled the slide back and out popped the cartridge, and released the slide and the trigger stayed back. Put a cartridge in the mag, pulled the slide back, released, and the trigger stayed back. Thinking something is definately broke, I dropped the mag ejecting the cartridge, and jacked the slide back and forth severl some times and ALL was cool and the trigger reset.

I pulled the slid off, and took a peek inside the reciever and messed around and never saw a thing broke or out of place, or notta !

Placed the slide back on and chalked it up to debre !


Loaded up and continued shooting and shooting etc. No problems, except I could barely hit the canyon wall !

So, Tired of all this mess and hotter than..... I decided to go in the house and cool off !

Took everything apart, and pulled everything out of slide and recierver , and gave it ALL the magnifying glass treatment. Nothing ! So, while I was there, I got the flitz, and polished ALL internals of slide and reciver, and what the heck, went ahead and dropped in a Glock OEM 3,5# connector. (I had several in a baggie from years ago) .


Looked in the KKM after a good scurbbing and saw nothing weird.


Moral:


Got no stinking clue ! :rofl:


I am hot, and tired and PO'd, and Please don't one of you 'uh um' good amigo's tell me, "well you just had a bad day shooting, and were in a slump....." :shame:


Helen Keller could have shot better than this !!!



I have NEVER in my life, seen anything this pathetic.


Now, after over 100rds of ammo, and stepping on some of the empties in my dazed condition, and coming back in the house with about half of what I had. Did not feel like stomping in the weeds to look for the cases.



So, this is my story. I sure hope NICK has one from him and Gator out shooting today better than this. haha.


I suppose you all have guessed by now that the KKM hits the mail box in town Monday morning. "Refund time." :supergrin:

I'll stick with OEM, and 10.7/11.0grs Blue Dot (yes these have always worked and shot perfecto and mucho accurate) in 180gr XTP and the 10.5grs BD with the 200gr XTP. And my BD recipie SSSSHHH ! for my 200gr HC bullets in the G20.

Don't know what the non reset trigger gig was, unless it was debre some where, it did clear up, and as I said , I could find NO issue with the gun after "complete take down etc," So I have to guess this is what it was. If someone else has a answer/guess/suggestion, come on..


Well amigo's. I am going to go drink a barrel of ice tea, and sit down, and pet the dog and play with the grand kids for a while, and hope I fall asleep and wake up and see that none of this happened and was all a bad dream !


Feel free to chime in !




Buenos Tardes !







CM

nickE10mm
07-21-2012, 15:53
Cm....

I did shoot today and will post a full report when I get to a PC (on my iPhone now at the pool) but I don't know off hand what happened to your groups, but 200gr XTP over 9.2gr LS should probably be 8.2gr. I've shot up to 9.4gr but HORNADY max is 8.2.

Is that a typo?

Also, I will day that your case splits look like a brass defect not a over pressure but I could be wrong.

I'll get on an post this evening with a full report as promised but I will say, in short, Gator378 and I had a great day at the range!

More later!!

_The_Shadow
07-21-2012, 15:58
WOW, do you know which loads specifically those were that bulged & split the cases?
I did have a Hornady case split just like that with the 9.4 grain LongShot load over the 200XTP, it was used several times.
Which case actually split? There was some mention of DT having some foreign made brass...
What recoil spring/system was in use?

CanyonMan
07-21-2012, 16:06
Cm....

I did shoot today and will post a full report when I get to a PC (on my iPhone now at the pool) but I don't know off hand what happened to your groups, but 200gr XTP over 9.2gr LS should probably be 8.2gr. I've shot up to 9.4gr but HORNADY max is 8.2.

Is that a typo?

Also, I will day that your case splits look like a brass defect not a over pressure but I could be wrong.

I'll get on an post this evening with a full report as promised but I will say, in short, Gator378 and I had a great day at the range!

More later!!



By the POOL eh ? Huuuummmm. I would have to go jump n the stock tank, and it's almost empty..

No typo's here amigo. As you said, you have been up to 9.4. Yes, Hodgdon allows for 8.2grs which put me only 1gr over. This data comes from ALL these other load data converations a bunch of us guys had a few days ago on this forum concerning LS loads and 180/200gr XTP's...

Something told me this was to HOT... I should have went with my convictions. Oh well, I still wish I knew what the non trigger reset was. I have to gues debre for now.

Simply the horrible groups came from a very poor barrel I happened to get. I popped the OEM back in and stepped back out and no problems (with just a few rounds) I am to tired to mess with it any longer today I assure you. haha.


Well I'd say stay cool, but you got a grip on that already. Glad ya had a good day.


Later





CM

CanyonMan
07-21-2012, 16:13
WOW, do you know which loads specifically those were that bulged & split the cases?
I did have a Hornady case split just like that with the 9.4 grain LongShot load over the 200XTP, it was used several times.
Which case actually split? There was some mention of DT having some foreign made brass...
What recoil spring/system was in use?


Hey amigo !

Yes, It was a brand new in the bag never before fired WW. I have never had issue with them (except for the factory one haha).

The load was the 9.2gr LS under the 200gr XTP. Yes I run a steel rod and wolff 20-ish # spring. I could tell by the report and feel they were waaaay to hot, so like a moron, I continued. Must have been the heat !. Not really, I just thought wow, pretty stout in this little hombre G29.. But AH, never again willI tread over max with this powder. Not good.

But, also, must understand the KKM left these hog bellys (you can see in the pics) with most of everything I shot.

The OEM did fine !



All I know my friend.






CM

_The_Shadow
07-21-2012, 17:13
I hear you, Winchester has been one of the stronger brass, the LongShot is very entergetic and that is why I liked 800X slightly better, however it is hard to beat the Blue Dot for tha accuracy that you and I have seen over the years with many cartridges and bullet combinations!

I was going to test some loads today but it was drizzling early, so I finished up building a flip up target stand on the end of the ironing board that I have my CHRONY mounted to.
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0567.jpg

CanyonMan
07-21-2012, 17:14
Update...

Shadow you ask me whiich cases.. WW, and I also just looked and saw there is a New Starline in here as well...

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/cid__0721021803.jpg

It too, is buldged. 9.2 LS/200gr XTP.

Checked the scales.... Everything "right on." I always double check when loading up any way, but ...

Takes me about an hour, or if I am really takin my time 1 1/2 hours per 100, start to finish. Slow, but that is one reson I have just not had issues, save for a couple little things in all these years. Barrel/loads. Nothing else to it I can see..







CM

dm1906
07-21-2012, 17:56
Surely, CM, you have better things to do than stand out in the heat and shoot where you ain't lookin'. The tea and grandkids sounds like the plan today.

While 9.2 gr LS is a hot load under a 200 gr XTP, it isn't anywhere near a full nuke load, and LS is (normally) a lot more forgiving than that. Did you have the rounds sitting in the sun for a time before shooting? (I've never done with LS this, so I don't know what might happen) Did you try the same load in your OEM barrel? Did you try them in the LW barrel? If you did, what was the result? Any chance of a recoil set-back?

Your KKM barrel shouldn't be bulging those cases like that, for any reason. Do the bulged/split brass fit back in? If they don't, you may have been seeing some (very) early unlocks.

CanyonMan
07-21-2012, 21:10
I hear you, Winchester has been one of the stronger brass, the LongShot is very entergetic and that is why I liked 800X slightly better, however it is hard to beat the Blue Dot for tha accuracy that you and I have seen over the years with many cartridges and bullet combinations!

I was going to test some loads today but it was drizzling early, so I finished up building a flip up target stand on the end of the ironing board that I have my CHRONY mounted to.
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0567.jpg



Well pard, looks like you got everything pretty well "Ironed out." haha ! :rofl: Please send the rain our way !!!

Nice little set up you got there amigo.... good thinking. Ha!

Yep WW has always served me well. Blue Dot has always (in semi auto 10's served me well) been good and never an issue..

OK.....


800X is good to go for me and has been in 10.1grs under a 180gr XTP. 10.5/11.0grs of BD under a 180gr XTP has for years worked excellent in OEM and LW. 10.5grs BD with 200gr XTP has worked excellent in OEM and LW with this bullet, and again my BD recipie, with 200gr BT HC at 1.260 has been more than excellent in the OEM G20 for years and years. Enough to take 100yd Texas deer and be a very potent load for what ever I need.. Yes one or two of these are a little tad over Hornady max, BUT... SAFE, For all the years in OEM I have shoot these I can assure you fellow amigo's and 10mm shooter's NOT one issue.... Not one ! ;)


NO TYPO's haha ! NO TYPO's !



I know I am more the big bore hog leg carrier/shooter than the 10mm , but 14 years with 10mm has been a learning adventure for me and the loads I just named (above) have been 'more' than safe in the G20and G29 in the OEM barrels and really pack a punch.

I believe that "SHADOW" will agree on these loads (BD) in 10mm that they work really well.



Man I am missing my western movie "Cross fire trail" with Tom Selleck... Better go before I fall asleep. Every time I try to sit down, I have to jump up and run do something for a few minutes.



OK, Yall's turn !



Deleted a bunch of this stuff due to writting while taking 'pain meds' along with a long Hot ruff day... To wordy ! Ha.

Sorry for all the ramblig guys..
I'm better now... I think ! haha




CM

CanyonMan
07-21-2012, 22:32
Surely, CM, you have better things to do than stand out in the heat and shoot where you ain't lookin'. The tea and grandkids sounds like the plan today.

While 9.2 gr LS is a hot load under a 200 gr XTP, it isn't anywhere near a full nuke load, and LS is (normally) a lot more forgiving than that. Did you have the rounds sitting in the sun for a time before shooting? (I've never done with LS this, so I don't know what might happen) Did you try the same load in your OEM barrel? Did you try them in the LW barrel? If you did, what was the result? Any chance of a recoil set-back?

Your KKM barrel shouldn't be bulging those cases like that, for any reason. Do the bulged/split brass fit back in? If they don't, you may have been seeing some (very) early unlocks.



Amigo, you are so very right on here !!!!

NO, buldged hog belled case will NOT fit back in any barrel....

I not only had all the bad "shooting experience of a life time", and all manner of things gong south on me, but after my "Ice tea and grand kid break", (which lasted about 5 minutes. haha) I had to pull a foal out that was breached, (15 minute job by the time I got there) and 'ream out' two hired hands, and spend a while in a 150 degree meatal shed at 5,000 square feet trying to fix a HUGE AC break down, ( and got it fixed 'fast', 'whew....' ) before a number of $ 15,000 to $40,000 dollar cuttin horses were over heating!!!! They are supposed to be stayin cool in there....

To answer 'your question', NO I did NOT have ammo in the heat amigo, I took them from the bench and drove down to the lower canyon and started shooting.. NO heat problems.. ;) Good thought on 'your behalf', but no, I did not have them in the heat long enough to cause a problem...

As far as the cycling of the gun, no problem.... It ran very well and 'in time'. Obviously the spent shells will NOT fit back into the chamber of the KKM because they are all " hog belled." They are to swollen to fit back in because of poor barrel chamber sizing.

The same loads in the OEM barrel were great except for the 9.2 LS These were the major trouble loads... Now they did shoot with more accuracy in the oem than the KKM, but not enough to write home about.


The "cycling" of the slide was perfect, no problems and all was as should be. It is just real simple. A lousy KKM barrel, perhaps ( in MY case) one out of a cabillion, haha. And loads over max with such powder that reacted in a bad way.

That's about it....




Now back to my video of 'cross fire trail', and falling a sleep.


Bless you old boys









CM

_The_Shadow
07-22-2012, 19:07
Well I ventured out today to test some hand loads...Speer 200 gr Cast TCBB SWC over 9.8 grains of my favorite powder Blue Dot seated to 1.26" with Remington 2 1/2 LP's.
From the Glock 29 factory 3.78"
1150 fps from the clean bore, then 1063, 1079, 1089, 1033 fps

From the S&W 1006 5"
1174, 1201, 1146, 1168, 1150
1153, 1156, 1167, 1151, 1133
1137, 1152, 1131, 1141. 1135
1154, 1145, 1201, 1201, 1201
1143, 1136, 1119, 1124, 1119

Sweat dripping into my eyes, down both arms, jeans soaked and pulling down...25' target spread was 6 1/2" total.
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0571.jpg

CanyonMan
07-23-2012, 07:44
Well I ventured out today to test some hand loads...Speer 200 gr Cast TCBB SWC over 9.8 grains of my favorite powder Blue Dot seated to 1.26" with Remington 2 1/2 LP's.
From the Glock 29 factory 3.78"
1150 fps from the clean bore, then 1063, 1079, 1089, 1033 fps

From the S&W 1006 5"
1174, 1201, 1146, 1168, 1150
1153, 1156, 1167, 1151, 1133
1137, 1152, 1131, 1141. 1135
1154, 1145, 1201, 1201, 1201
1143, 1136, 1119, 1124, 1119

Sweat dripping into my eyes, down both arms, jeans soaked and pulling down...25' target spread was 6 1/2" total.
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0571.jpg



Thanks for the report Shadow. If ya got that in the G29 with 9.8 grs BD, then I must be doing pretty good using the 10grs/10.5grs, I have been using for a long time now.

Thanks for posting. I'm done with the LS for now in the 10mm and think I'll jst stick with the BD since it has always worked really well for me all these years. Also the 10.0grs 800X with 180XTP has been very accurate and performs well too.


I'll be sending the KKM back today. Don't know if I'll exchange it, or just get a refund, and stick with the OEM. I have never had a problem with OEM using these BD loads or the 10.0 800X load either. I've about decided to keep the 'trusty G20 SF', and perhaps just sell the G29, since I can find no 'practical use' for it, (fo me) 'out here'. I carry a M1911 45acp when ever we go to a town or city etc. And IF there is to be any hunting it is always my revolvers.

If I use a Glock it has been the G20 for deer size game only, and that is not very often that he sees action, so The G29 is like brand new, so he may just 'help fund' an AK47/M15 project with a few hundred bucks. We'll see, don't know yet.

If I do decide to, I'll let it be known around here if someone wants it, it will be a fair price.


Hey amigo, thanks again for the posting, and I hear ya on the sweat in the face buiness. I'm sure you got worse humidity in Louisiana than we do here in W, Texas. whew !


Was hoping to hear from nick about his shoot Saturday as well..


Take care amigo and thanks... ;)







CM

nickE10mm
07-23-2012, 09:41
Thanks for posting. I'm done with the LS for now in the 10mm and think I'll jst stick with the BD since it has always worked really well for me all these years. Also the 10.0grs 800X with 180XTP has been very accurate and performs well too.

I'll be sending the KKM back today.

Hey, CM... sorry about your weird experiences with LS and your new KKM... thats too bad. I've not had any of those issues with either LS or KKM products. Glad nothing got damaged (except the brass, ha)

If I use a Glock it has been the G20 for deer size game only, and that is not very often that he sees action, so The G29 is like brand new, so he may just 'help fund' an AK47/M15 project with a few hundred bucks. We'll see, don't know yet.

Understood... The rule is, if you don't want or don't need or "no longer" need a gun, sell it and get something you want! No harm done! :)

Was hoping to hear from nick about his shoot Saturday as well..

Yea, sorry i've taken so long to report back ... CRAZY weekend here with unexpected guests being over at the house for both Saturday and Sunday... I'm working from home today so I can give you all a quick rundown of my range trip Saturday.

All in all, it was a GREAT time! I met Gator378 (GT forum member) out at one of our state-run ranges with our 10mm's to meet and burn some powder. He brought his Gen1/2 G20 equipped with a JPoint 8MOA reflex sight and Barsto stock length barrel. I'd never before shot a Glock with a reflex sight... I brought my Fusion Hunter and G29SF, neither of which he had shot before. We both had tons of reloads so ammo was no object to us... the only thing preventing us from blasting hundreds and hundreds of rounds downrange that day was 1) the fact that we were sharing a lane and 2) the heat and 3) the rangemaster calling cease-fire every 10-15 minutes. :) By the way, Gator378 is a very nice young man (lol, he's got me by about 30 years, ;)) .... REALLY glad to have met him. I'm sure we will shoot again soon, especially when the weather cools down this fall.

My shooting impressions of the JPoint is this: Its CHEATING!! Super super awesome ... just place the dot on the target and press the trigger until the sight picture goes away. We were at the rifle range so 25y was our minimum distance to the target. My FIRST target at 25y, standing, with the JPoint G20 is below. I was not used to his stock trigger (which wasn't nearly as light and crisp as my own G20sf) but was VERY pleased with my first attempt.

First J-Point attempt:
http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh585/nickE10mm/IMG_6502.jpg

Here is the pistol (hope he doesn't mind I post this):
http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh585/nickE10mm/IMG_6499.jpg

Another shot of the pistol:
http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh585/nickE10mm/IMG_6498.jpg

Gator378 really enjoyed both my Fusion AND my G29sf... (I call people by their screen names on public posts unless they say otherwise. PM's and emails are different) ... I think he was more impressed with the Fusion than anything. He kept commenting on how perfect it came up to a sighting picture and how smooth, reliable and accurate it shot. He also commented on how easy the G29 slipped into his pocket. He was also commenting on how my Blue Dot loads ROCKED in a G29. He was wearing the true 10mm smile, and I WAS TOO!

Most of the loads we shot were either his 200gr Rainier bullets over 12.0gr AA9 (really stout feeling, AA9 seems like a real pusher!) or one of several of my 155, 165, 180 or 200gr Gold Dots or XTP handloads...

All in a all, great conversations.... we talked reloading and rifles and pistols and everything in between.... really nice meeting another friend, shooter AND 10mm guy! Also, I think I'm in the market for a JPoint for my G20sf... either a JPoint or a Fastfire III... not sure yet. But I'm strangely excited about the whole thing!!!!! I'm sick and twisted, I know....

One more thing ... my Dad called yesterday and said his inaugural steel plate target testing went well... he's working on fabricating some steel falling targets for our 10mm's and other guns! Can't wait!!!!! More on this later....

(ps... sorry to post this in your thread CM but I didn't think it warranted its own thread and I plan on doing another range trip soon where I take more shots and more pictures)

CanyonMan
07-23-2012, 10:37
Hey, CM... sorry about your weird experiences with LS and your new KKM... thats too bad. I've not had any of those issues with either LS or KKM products. Glad nothing got damaged (except the brass, ha)



Understood... The rule is, if you don't want or don't need or "no longer" need a gun, sell it and get something you want! No harm done!



Yea, sorry i've taken so long to report back ... CRAZY weekend here with unexpected guests being over at the house for both Saturday and Sunday... I'm working from home today so I can give you all a quick rundown of my range trip Saturday.

All in all, it was a GREAT time! I met Gator378 (GT forum member) out at one of our state-run ranges with our 10mm's to meet and burn some powder. He brought his Gen1/2 G20 equipped with a JPoint 8MOA reflex sight and Barsto stock length barrel. I'd never before shot a Glock with a reflex sight... I brought my Fusion Hunter and G29SF, neither of which he had shot before. We both had tons of reloads so ammo was no object to us... the only thing preventing us from blasting hundreds and hundreds of rounds downrange that day was 1) the fact that we were sharing a lane and 2) the heat and 3) the rangemaster calling cease-fire every 10-15 minutes. By the way, Gator378 is a very nice young man (lol, he's got me by about 30 years, ) .... REALLY glad to have met him. I'm sure we will shoot again soon, especially when the weather cools down this fall.

My shooting impressions of the JPoint is this: Its CHEATING!! Super super awesome ... just place the dot on the target and press the trigger until the sight picture goes away. We were at the rifle range so 25y was our minimum distance to the target. My FIRST target at 25y, standing, with the JPoint G20 is below. I was not used to his stock trigger (which wasn't nearly as light and crisp as my own G20sf) but was VERY pleased with my first attempt.

First J-Point attempt:
http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh585/nickE10mm/IMG_6502.jpg

Here is the pistol (hope he doesn't mind I post this):
http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh585/nickE10mm/IMG_6499.jpg

Another shot of the pistol:
http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh585/nickE10mm/IMG_6498.jpg

Gator378 really enjoyed both my Fusion AND my G29sf... (I call people by their screen names on public posts unless they say otherwise. PM's and emails are different) ... I think he was more impressed with the Fusion than anything. He kept commenting on how perfect it came up to a sighting picture and how smooth, reliable and accurate it shot. He also commented on how easy the G29 slipped into his pocket. He was also commenting on how my Blue Dot loads ROCKED in a G29. He was wearing the true 10mm smile, and I WAS TOO!

Most of the loads we shot were either his 200gr Rainier bullets over 12.0gr AA9 (really stout feeling, AA9 seems like a real pusher!) or one of several of my 155, 165, 180 or 200gr Gold Dots or XTP handloads...

All in a all, great conversations.... we talked reloading and rifles and pistols and everything in between.... really nice meeting another friend, shooter AND 10mm guy! Also, I think I'm in the market for a JPoint for my G20sf... either a JPoint or a Fastfire III... not sure yet. But I'm strangely excited about the whole thing!!!!! I'm sick and twisted, I know....

One more thing ... my Dad called yesterday and said his inaugural steel plate target testing went well... he's working on fabricating some steel falling targets for our 10mm's and other guns! Can't wait!!!!! More on this later....

(ps... sorry to post this in your thread CM but I didn't think it warranted its own thread and I plan on doing another range trip soon where I take more shots and more pictures)



Hey brother, NO appology needed what soever.. Man you are more than welcome to post anything ya want to, and 'any one' can for that matter... NO problem amigo. I enjoyed your post, and "everyone else" that posted on this thread as well... ;)





Well sounds and looks like you and Gator had a very good day. For this I am Glad some one did ! hahaha !

Looks like Gator's "Sighting apparatus" was just short of a scope ! ha.

Yep, it seems most folks who shoot the 10mm with BD always get a rush, especially if it's low light or dark ! haha

You guys had a great time and that is what matters at the end of the day amigo !

Yep, I do not understand one thing about my LS experience except what seems to be (seriously) just plain common sense. A lemon barrel. There should not have been all the huge buldges (like OEM) and blown case (or split), and such terrible accuracy that gave 4" and 6" groups at 25 yds, when I can do that good or better than that at 50 to 100. Seriously.



I can usually punch out the 10 ring at 25 yds, and this G29 has done it a number of times with OEM and BD Hand Loads.

So, as I say, I have no "practical use" for the G29 and knew this when I bought it, but wanted it so.....

I really do like my G20SF, and like the 10mm. It is a fun caliber to shoot, and I will never get rid of my G20SF, but unless I find some pactical reason for "me" to justify keeping the G29, He needs to go. The gun is in perfect condition, looks like NIB, and shoots really great with OEM.

Hey NO cut on KKM here, not at all. I just got a 'lemon'. Anything made by man can go south, we have all bought "something" in our life time more than once, that has been a bummer out of the box .. haha. I am sure another KKM will shoot very well, and IF I do not sell the G29, I will get another KKM or LW just for the heck of it, but really (other than saving brass life) the Oem will punch holes and keep really tighy groups, so who knows at this point.

More important things in life at present than to worry over this little issue. ;)


Well, again, pard I am glad you shared and had a great time at the range with Gator, and I am thankful to ALL you guys on the forum here for your help and advice and load sharing, etc.

On reflection this morning on the LS powder. I have to cut it some slack, "because" I shot it through a lemon barrel.

I have decided (even within the past few hours) to go load up about 25 rounds of LS (when I get the time) and use the G20 LW barrel that shoots like a champ and drills little groups, and run out side here right quick and I bet it will all be fine. I am convinced there is really no other explanation for my mishap the other day except a bad AM barrel.. I can see NO other reason for such bad brass and bad accuracy..

I bet it all goes away with the G20 /LW. I will let y'all know asap. Depends on how busy I am/am not, today and tomorrow.


Well I need to get otta here and re-check an AC system in the horse barn...


Thanks again for sharing.... Every one.



Later amigo's, and everyone welcome to share 'whatever ya want' here.. Always welcome, everyone ! ;)












CM

nickE10mm
07-23-2012, 10:44
I really do like my G20SF, and like the 10mm. It is a fun caliber to shoot, and I will never get rid of my G20SF, but unless I find some pactical reason for "me" to justify keeping the G29, He needs to go. The gun is in perfect condition, looks like NIB, and shoots really great with OEM. Hey NO cut on KKM here, not at all. I just got a lemon. Anything made by man can go south, we have all bought "something" in our life time more than once, that has been a bummer out of the box .. haha. I am sure another KKM will shoot very well, and IF I do not sell the G29, I will get another KKM or LW just for the heck of it, but reall (other than saving brass life) the Oem will punch holes and keep really tighy groups, so who knows at this point.

CM

Agreed 100% on giving both KKM and Longshot BOTH another chance. Do a LS workup in your G20 setup (a proven setup) and watch the numbers and power fly!

And I'm sure Kevin @ KKM will do you right whether its refund or exchange.

Good luck, brother! Stay cool....

CanyonMan
07-23-2012, 10:53
Agreed 100% on giving both KKM and Longshot BOTH another chance. Do a LS workup in your G20 setup (a proven setup) and watch the numbers and power fly!

And I'm sure Kevin @ KKM will do you right whether its refund or exchange.

Good luck, brother! Stay cool....



Oh yeh for sure amigo. Nothing I have said has been a rant agaist KKM. I made that clear on the first post. Any one can make a mistake with a product. No, I know he makes good stuff as does LW and others. Man i just got a bad one. Stuff happens. I already talked them (at KKM), their really nice folks. Kevin and Sy, and all of them. No worries there. They are there to help I have NO concern with that.


I agree, in that I really believe the other "proven barrel" and the G20 will bring those groups back to one nice pokerchip size hole out there for me. I will let y'all know when I can. Pressing issues are upon me right nowm so I best "press outta here" and go deal with them... haha

Thanks Nick, I agree amigo !

Stay cool ! right ! Even the rattlers are sizzling out here ! haha.



LAter my friend






CM

CanyonMan
07-24-2012, 15:34
Well here is an update.....



Besides just flat havin to much going on, I have just got "out of the mood" for all my load trial/error stuff for 10mm, "since" I already have loads with BD and AA#9 that really smoke down range and hit hard, and especially with the BD and HC bulllets out of my G20sf..

My Hornady book vol 6/7 just won't allow for enough LS powder to give vels much better than a 40 S&W. Going 1/2/3/grs over book max to achieve what I can safely do with the BD and AA9, I believe is just not a wise idea. Not with the XTP.

Hodgdon allows for 8.2grs LS max with a 200gr SIERRA, not XTP.

Hodgdon allows for 9.5grs LS max with a 180gr SIERRA not an XTP.

Hornady allows for only 8.2grs LS Max for a 180gr XTP Not SIERRA, and allows only 7.3grs of LS Max for the 200gr XTP, not SIERRA.

Since the Sierra and the XTP are differentin shank and ogive, I am confident this is why the difference in load data between Hodgdon and Hornady.

Pushing the 180 XTP to 9.4/9.5grs LS, and the 200gr Xtp 9.2grs LS 'and beyond', is way past 'Hornaday' max, to much so imo, to just end up with what BD and AA#9 can give me more safely so.

I have 'no doubt at this point', after spending half the night last night checking rechecking, and cross refferencing, and looking once again at my fired brass from all the "FUN" I had Saturday... hahaha. That LS is not to be pushed this far from Hornady Max unsing a Hornady bullet.

I learned long ago 'mixing components' is not a real good practice 'at times'. With "some things" yes, we can 'sometimes' get away with it, but it is better to stick with the components listed in the book "especially when," we do decide to venture 'over max' for those particular loads and book data lsted...

Re-read that last sentence amigo's.


Now I am 'no where near' the weany stage and been doing stuff with loads and guns that will make a bull rider out here yell calf rope ! haha.

But, there are just "some components" that must be used as listed in the book for that bullet.


So, if I do that and stay with "Hornady listed data" for the XTP with LS powder in the 10mm, I will end up with not much more than a glorified 40S&W.

I have NO doubt that these loads I ran the other day in the G29 are what caused such excessive pressure that they cracked open and split a new WW case, and just flat buldged out the rest even in that KKM barrel, which yes, Is a rather lemon-ish barrel I 'happened to get', but I have shot about every type gun you can imagine since I started at 10 years old, and married into a family that had a High 'class' firearms license, so I got to shoot a good many pretty cool things in all those years before his death. (former father in law).

Saying, I could tell with out question by feel and report, that those LS loadings were just to hot for that weapon, no matter the barrel. Going to a AM barrel is not a reason to to go further past the limits, it helps yes, but is not the reaaon to crank up the powder load, as I know y'all know already, but some newbies may not know this.

Now, I know several of you have used these LS loads mentioned above with the Xtp's mentioned above, with great results, and no problems, and that is great, and I believe you, and trust the wisdom of those who have done this, but I do suggest we all stand back a tad an give 'thought' to this. Some times luck does not always hold out...


I have been a wildcatter from oil field, horses, to hand gun loads for 4 & 5 decades, and with many risky things in ranch life and business, and do shoot some over max loads in several revolvers and even in the 10mm G20, BUT, in doing so, we got to watch HOW we're mixing and matching bullets/case's/powders/primers.

One of my very dear friends is Mic McPherson. Google him up. He gives lectures all over the world on ballistics, and has a loading manual that I think is one of the best out there.. "Metallaic Cartridge Reloading"

We have spent many phone calls together over a good deal of years, and in all the stuff I mention to him I do, the biggest thing he jumps on me about is "mixing components", mostly bullets from one load book to another.. E.G, using Hornady bullets with SIERRA, etc load data. Vice versa.

Guys, again, I am NOT rebuking, or pointing fingers, or being smart, or any such nonsense ! I am however saying that the LS powder is not a good choice in these way over max loads (according to Hornady load data for their XTP with LS). "because", again, in staying with the Hornady data for 180/200gr Xtp's, it is nothing more than a tad over 40S&W loadings in velocity. You got to get pretty well 'over Hornady max' to make this powder move that bullet the same AA9 or BD can do 'at book data'.


Again guys, man, I do some pretty cutting edge things, I really do and 'never been afraid to'. But For me, the LS and XTP's should stay as Hornady suggest in their load book, after what I experienced with it the other day... I realize there are tons of "weany loads" in most of our manuals, "Especially in the Lyman books."

Talk about liberal load data .. man ! But there is a reason that even in Lee 2nd edition reloading, they specifically say...

" 200gr JHP's" .. this powder this grs, this powder this grs etc, BUT, All of a sudden, they still say "200gr" but it will say right after it XTP!!!

Because of shank of bullet/design/ogive, etc, they know that "this bullet" (in this true example) is NOT to be used under their 200gr JHP loadings "except" where noted XTP.

Same with speer, and Lyman, and other. The bullet is listed for that particular charge weight... YES, I know I know, we can some times, and I some times, go ahead anyway, and even 'push the max'. But in ALL humility, no matter how long ya got away with it, it's only ok, if you've really researched it and "THEN", frankly, 'Know that ya know, that ya know, what your doing." Then procede.


If this sounds weany/ picking/ scolding... Then the reader has MISSED the point here.... Or I have failed to communicate this properly.

I did not write this to argue, or point fingers, cause if I point one finger at you, I got three pointing back at me... haha


I'm just saying that after I a good deal of looking at all this, and loading up some stuff late last night, and looking at some numbers on paper at least. I can see no velocity benifit in LS over the other loadings for the 180gr/200gr XTP. And as I said, staying with Hornady book loads for LS and their XTP, will give poor velocity numbers not much over a 40S&W.


Well. That is what I see, and got to stand there, so hopefully this will be a suggestion that deserves a hearing... ha

Never come to the place in loading that we won't at least listen or research a little more.


So, Final note. The LNIB G29 is for sale if anyone is interested. I have a G20, and it serves my purpose, but have no use for a G29.

Going to stay with my 40 some year carry "in town" of M1911 45acp. This caliber and platform has always served me well, and never let me down, so I will continue on with it in a couple different platforms, but in 45acp.


I got the G29 for a "new trial/error" gun for 'in town human SD..' It would be, and is a good round for that as you all know, man no argument there from me... I just am old and set in my ways and like my 45's haha :fred:

The G20 makes for a good saddle bag gun on horse back in the way out back here, loaded down with a hand full of high caps for the poop hit the fan south of the border runners, if God forbid it was needed, but my EDC ranch carry is a 45LC or 44mag six shot and although I can knock a nat out of his saddle at a looong way with my hog legs, I do favor having higher cap fire power in the ready if called for.

Thus the G20 rides along. 10mm ? Excellent caliber and SD weapon, and a ok deer gun. But the G29 is up for grabs if someone wants it. Yes it has had maybe 300yds through it I guess. But looks and shoots perfect with the OEM barrel. Internals have been lightly polished by me, and as I said it shoots great.

I just got no need for it.

As for the G20. It will and has served well with the high dose's of BD, and max loads of AA#9 for me, so I'll stay there.

I hope everyone takes this in the spirt given, as most forums are not much more than key board battle grounds. :supergrin:


Some times in life we learn, some times we need to teach. So, I'll throw this out like a hay bale over the fence, and folks can eat or walk away...

Man, in over 40 odd years of loading and shooting all the time... I am still learnng ! haha..........



Well amigo's. Gun for sale. I am satisfied with the G20 and my long time loads. It is a keeper. The KKM goes back for a refund, and the LS, well, it will be a shelf queen, unless I can find use for it some where, but I would not no where at present. All calibers and guns I own already got their "menu"
lined out for them ! haha.

This weapon (G29) 'will knock out' the 10 ring with the stock barrel even in semi rapid fire and at 35yds or so.

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/0826001511a.jpg



http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/1018001015a-1.jpg


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/1018001014a-1.jpg


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/1018001022.jpg





Be safe Mi Amigo's !!











CM

nickE10mm
07-24-2012, 17:44
"Some times in life we learn, some times we need to teach. So, I'll throw this out like a hay bale over the fence, and folks can eat or walk away... "

Well I choose to eat. :)

Thanks for posting. I'd be a FOOL if I didn't keep listening and learning in my life, and while ain't done with Longshot yet (by a longshot), I'm going to look REALLY hard at both Blue Dot and AA9 in making my decision as to my main 200gr huntin powder. I still have many more tests to do (mainly accuracy workups) before I decide on what's best for my official hunting powder... and will be taking into effect how safe my loads are in comparison to the power I'm getting.


I'll pass the word on the G29sf, man!! Stay safe!!!

CanyonMan
07-24-2012, 19:33
"Some times in life we learn, some times we need to teach. So, I'll throw this out like a hay bale over the fence, and folks can eat or walk away... "

Well I choose to eat. :)

Thanks for posting. I'd be a FOOL if I didn't keep listening and learning in my life, and while ain't done with Longshot yet (by a longshot), I'm going to look REALLY hard at both Blue Dot and AA9 in making my decision as to my main 200gr huntin powder. I still have many more tests to do (mainly accuracy workups) before I decide on what's best for my official hunting powder... and will be taking into effect how safe my loads are in comparison to the power I'm getting.


I'll pass the word on the G29sf, man!! Stay safe!!!





Hey Buddy, I am glad someone read my "novel." haha !

I was hoping The post would not come across in a bad way, but as instructive. I really believe I am on the right track here, BUT, bro in your continued LS testing, do be careful Nick. I really do believe these figures we been talking about are way to much "and for the wrong bullet design." !!

But, please do keep any information and or updates of what you learn out here before everyone.


I appreciate the kind and sincere reply amigo. I really thought I should post this (above) after 'my' own shooting experience with LS (at the grains over "Hornady book max"), and after a night full of cross referencing, even "old outdated data here.." And looking through a mountain of load data books in my pretty large library of data books manuals, and others load notes from over the years I have.

Also, the discussion with Hodgdon. And a friend of mine I mentioned (above) who wrote a load book Metalic Cratridge Reloading," by Mic McPherson." Everyone really needs this thick load manual.. It can be Googled up.

He is working on the next volume now. It really would be a REAL benefit to everyone to get this load manual.

So, like I said about the hay... We never feed hay with sticks in it or the stock would choke.

So, when we're "eating", (information), we need to always spit out the sticks (if their there) and only eat the hay. ;)



I hope this "hay" (my post above) will help some hungry travlers by here...





I appreciate you brother.

Thanks for spreading the word on the G29.
That puppy shoots good don't it ? I think there was 50/60 rounds in that 35yd 'step out the door test' in the back.




Good shooting !













CM

10mmted
09-04-2012, 07:04
CanyonMan,
I am inferring from your posts that you shoot HC lead through an OEM Glock barrel. I bought some Buffalo Bore 220 grain HC lead for black bear defence but was then told that these shold not be shot in an OEM glock barrel.

Can you please confirm or deny this for me?

Thank you

dm1906
09-04-2012, 11:32
CanyonMan,
I am inferring from your posts that you shoot HC lead through an OEM Glock barrel. I bought some Buffalo Bore 220 grain HC lead for black bear defence but was then told that these shold not be shot in an OEM glock barrel.

Can you please confirm or deny this for me?

Thank you

CanyonMan is offline for a while, but I can answer your question. Yes, he did/does shoot HC bullets through his OEM Glock barrel. I do too, a lot.

The general rule is, don't. The reason is a higher occurrence of leading, due to the design of the bore "rifling". If you do, spend some time watching your performance, and check the bore often for excessive leading. The "problem" isn't so much the lead, but the bullet diameter and the Glock bore. This is why some Glocks lead, and some don't. If you are going to shoot lead often, I suggest you slug your bore, and make sure the bullets you are shooting are of sufficient diameter. For traditional rifling, an oversize of .001" may be enough, while some Glock bores seem more happy with .002". The use of a gas check may help if it's on the smaller side. The BB round is a plain-base bullet, and they don't specify the actual bullet diameter, other than the .400" caliber. They advertise velocities for the Glock pistols and don't advise against it, so it's functional at least (not to mention it's popular with Glock shooters).

If you have the rounds already, either fire some test rounds to settle your concern, or return them and get a suitable jacketed round. If you have only 1 or 2 boxes, and actually get excessive leading, you can shoot up what you have before it becomes an issue. The "high round count" that can cause issues is a lot more than you'll be shooting at any one session, and certainly a LOT more than what you'll need to dispatch a bear. A typical session with mine is more than 200 rounds of lead bullets. I will have some leading at the end of the day, but it's minimal, and cleans up easy enough. If you're still apprehensive, return/sell your BB rounds, and buy a suitable jacketed round, such as Underwood's 200 gr. XTP, or 200 gr. TMJ (Speer) if you require a solid bullet.

Any Cal.
09-04-2012, 18:33
I shot commercial hardcast in the factory barrel, but they leaded up pretty good in my case after a few. Sort of a non-issue, you can still shoot them 'til the barrel gets too full of lead, then you have to clean it.

CanyonMan
09-13-2012, 15:41
Was trotting buy.....


Mi Amigo's. Many of you have sent emails and PM's and stayed in touch, and man I really appreciate all of you that have been doing this. Keep it up !

Just an update to answer some questions "all at once" here, then I am back to my "GT Sabbatical."


Sold the G29, and sent the KKM back to KKM. Then a couple weeks ago in the mail I had another KKM and opened it, and it was for a G29 ????? !!! So I called and they said, well, we wanted you to be a happy camper so we fixed this puppy up for ya and sent it to ya free of charge ! On the house ! It ought to work as per how you wanted it to now with those cast bullets.. (remember the theme of this thread was my BT 200gr cast would not load into the new KKM for the G29)

I said , 'Wow, are you guys the greatest, but this one won't work either..... Because I SOLD the G29.." Haha.

Kevin, (at KKM) said, " Well you got a G20 don't ya."? Yep, I replied. He said, "We will just send you a new barrel for your G20 On the house and ready to go for your needs."

I said...(without a nano speck of hesitation. FINE ! Cool ! ).


I got it recently, and discovered some really cool things, and one really dumb thing on MY part !

The really cool thing is, the new KKM for the G20SF (see below) Now loads my HC 200gr, 180gr, 135gr, at 1.255.

Remember, I been loading 200gr and 180gr HC's for ever in the stock barrel with BD at 1300fps, and 1.260

So, I dummy loaded a Hunter Supply, and a DT 200gr, and at 1.255 they "plop' right in like champs and I will now be able to adjust my BD, but still remain at 1300fps ! Very sweet !


Now, when I tried the BT 200gr Dummy load, I found out what a dummy I really was. (actually "forgetfull) "!

They would again, NOT go in all the way in the new KKM... ??? What is this, I yelled !


I looked at the "box" the BT's came in and saw it ! Then remembered, I had ordered them all way back in the day at .402, and been using them with tremendous accuracy and results at 1300fps in the OEM barrel using BD.

The HS, and the DT HC bullets measured... You guest it ! .401 !

SOOOO, All .401 HC I have dropping down to 1.255, from my 1.260, (which we know is nothing) ALL work fantastic in the new KKM G20SF !

Go ahead and laugh... One day 'you two' may get to be 61, and forget stuff ! :tongueout:


So, my good friends, I close with a few pics, and ride off once again, and say adios until.................?


Thanks again, for ALL the emails and PM's. Always welcome !


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/0913021546.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/0913021553.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/0913021551.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/0913021548.jpg

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/0913021549.jpg


My Stetson is off to Kevin and Luke at KKM ! I can not think of how in the world a guy could be treated any better than I have been by this really great company, and the honest stand up guys that own operate it... Thanks guys at KKM !!!!



Stay safe everyone, and be blessed !








CanyonMan