Denver Shooting, as CC would you shoot back? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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cgjane
07-20-2012, 07:38
Given the crowded theater would you have returned fire?

IF Yes, Reports say he had a kevlar vest, would you still return fire?

What are the implications of your bullet wounding others when you are defending yourself?

Foxtrotx1
07-20-2012, 07:40
Way to soon.

fuzzy03cls
07-20-2012, 07:44
Likely no. The guy was dressed in full swat gear.

Captain Caveman
07-20-2012, 08:23
IF you had a clear field of fire, it's unlikely you would realize the shooter was wearing armor until the 3rd or 4th round.

rmodel65
07-20-2012, 08:25
uggh wtf? I just woke up i went to the movies last night to watch the new Batman last night here in GA. This is the first I had heard of it. I went armed thankfully because of GCO's lobbying efforts public gatherings arent off limits anymore. I carried a small J frame revolver and would have definitely been out gunned but at least it would have given me a fighting chance

Glockdude1
07-20-2012, 08:39
It was dark in the theater. No on knew he was wearing a vest until he was arrested. I would have shot back at him, had I a clear shot at him.

When it comes to bullet proof vests, many believe them to be a "magic shield" where bullets will just bounce off leaving the person wearing it unaffected.

B.S.

He would at least having the wind knocked out of him, severely slowing him down, more and more with every bullet hitting him. One bullet in his armpit would really hurt him.

:cool:

cgjane
07-20-2012, 08:40
Way to soon.

It is being discussed within the main threads.

redbaron007
07-20-2012, 08:45
Given the crowded theater would you have returned fire?

IF Yes, Reports say he had a kevlar vest, would you still return fire?

What are the implications of your bullet wounding others when you are defending yourself?

Depending on where I was in relation to the shooter...it all depends.

Having a kevlar vest is not the point. You wouldn't know it until afterwards.

:wavey:

red

cowboy1964
07-20-2012, 08:46
If I can get my family out safely that is my first priority. If I am trapped, then fight to the death.

Aahzz
07-20-2012, 09:11
I can give a definite "maybe". Do I have a clear field of fire, where am I in the theater compared to him, can I see clearly through the tear gas for target acquisition, am I being trampled be running people - too many variables to give a definitive answer from where I'm sitting.

redbaron007
07-20-2012, 09:15
If I can get my family out safely that is my first priority. If I am trapped, then fight to the death.

^^
100%%

WE have a winner!! :thumbsup:

:wavey:

red

RussP
07-20-2012, 09:17
Given the crowded theater would you have returned fire?

IF Yes, Reports say he had a kevlar vest, would you still return fire?

What are the implications of your bullet wounding others when you are defending yourself?

Way to soon.

It is being discussed within the main threads.I believe what Foxtrox1 is saying that there are too few details about how the event progressed to be able to say how we might act in the exact same situation.

Everyone should agree that having a general plan of action/reaction for any location we might find ourselves in whether it be a theater, a convenience store or the local grocery store.

Any response should be regulated by weapons, yours and the bad guy's, distance between you and the shooter, your training and skill level (remember, adrenalin does really crazy things to you physically and mentally), and the position and behavior of others between you and the shooter.

All that would determine whether I would engage.

concretefuzzynuts
07-20-2012, 09:53
One woman who was in the theater said she was so close she could have touched him and that she was looking down the barrel of his rifle. So it wasn't that dark or smokey where she was.

Had an armed "good guy" been that close, a head/neck shot could have been possible. Even a groin shot would have slowed or stopped him.

kirgi08
07-20-2012, 09:56
It was dark in the theater. No on knew he was wearing a vest until he was arrested. I would have shot back at him, had I a clear shot at him.

When it comes to bullet proof vests, many believe them to be a "magic shield" where bullets will just bounce off leaving the person wearing it unaffected.

B.S.

They user still absorbs the kinetics.

He would at least having the wind knocked out of him, severely slowing him down, more and more with every bullet hitting him. One bullet in his armpit would really hurt him.

:cool:

Maybe,dope coulda been involved.

Depending on where I was in relation to the shooter...it all depends.

Having a kevlar vest is not the point. You wouldn't know it until afterwards.

:wavey:

red

Granted,2 COM and a ladder hike is cool.

^^
100%%

WE have a winner!! :thumbsup:

:wavey:

red

My friend,the data is out there,the POS deserves a round.My interest is the motivation.

I believe what Foxtrox1 is saying that there are too few details about how the event progressed to be able to say how we might act in the exact same situation.

Everyone should agree that having a general plan of action/reaction for any location we might find ourselves in whether it be a theater, a convenience store or the local grocery store.

Any response should be regulated by weapons, yours and the bad guy's, distance between you and the shooter, your training and skill level (remember, adrenalin does really crazy things to you physically and mentally), and the position and behavior of others between you and the shooter.

All that would determine whether I would engage.

I would engage by training,my kin were in that place.Think long think wrong.'08.

TTex
07-20-2012, 09:59
Impossible to know.
A better question at the moment is would you CC if you were going to the movie tonight? (Which I am)
On the one hand you might want to be prepared for a copy cat, but on the other, people are on high alert, and you just might make the news even if you have a permit. "Man brings gun into local theater"........ story tonight at 10.

AZL
07-20-2012, 10:02
The most honest and definitive answer I can even venture at this moment is..."I don't know". SO many factors and variables are in play...it is almost impossible to armchair.

The only thing I CAN say for sure is if ESCAPE was impossible, I would get my daughter under the best cover available. UNTIL an opportunity presented itself to engage in a manner tilted heavily enough in MY favor to end it without killing innocents. We typically sit as high up as we can, as we are both tall, and it offers us the best view. Thus, sitting where we do, shooting DOWN into a crowd, in the dark, would not be a very good option. So, I lean very heavily into the "NO" area.

Honesty prevailing...my absolute priority would be to make sure my daughter was covered and go strictly defensive. As I have said, and cannot stress enough...SHE is my number one priority...even to the point of taking rounds myself to protect her with my own body. You can bet...if we were to be come SPECIFIC targets...in order to save HER specifically...I would fire, and fire until the threat was ended. Cover and escape would still be number one.

I KNOW someone is going to bring up "tactics" and such, and reccomend sitting down further, and whatever. The reality is...you are then exposing yourself on a 360-degree plane...so, at least having a brick wall to your back is SOME safety from attack from the rear. There are no real "tactics" for a situation such as this. Yes...I could WISH for one of my patrol rifles with the Gee-Whizz EoTech or Sig STS-081 on it for laser-like-precision...but all I would have would be my Glock 19, and a J-Frame for a BUG. So, any discussion of tactics go right out the window other than...COVER AND ESCAPE.

Then again...my "cop-stank" as my friend calls it, might take over, and make me do something as experience, training, and instinct took over...but who is to say. This situation is SO bad on SO many levels, that no option is really a "good" one.

All I can do now, is offer a prayer to the survivors, and a prayer to those who didn't make it.

B.Reid
07-20-2012, 10:07
If I had a clear shot you bet. Even a hit to the vest would hurt him and maybe slow him down for a head shot.

HoldHard
07-20-2012, 10:08
In Michigan, if the entertainment facility has seating for more than 2,500 people (that's counting ALL the theaters, combined) then it would be illegal to carry a concealed weapon. It is one of those "pistol free zones" or as we call them criminal enterprise zones.

Due to that restriction, our movie watching is done at home.

HH

RussP
07-20-2012, 10:20
I would engage by training,Important...my kin were in that place.Your kin were in the Aurora movie theater?Think long think wrong.'08.Can you explain that for those not familiar with the phrase, please.

jhmayhem
07-20-2012, 10:43
Honestly, I think getting my loved one(s) I was there with to safety would have been my first priority. According to the recent articles I have read about the incident, the shooter was wearing tactical body armor, goggles and ahd a riot helmet on. It also says he was armed with a rifle and two handguns, so I am assuming the rifle was the initial firearm used in his attack. On top of all that he apparently had tear gas and/or explosives with him, but that I don't know much about yet. However, if I were to find myself cornered or had a clear shot that could possibly end the ordeal, then I think the answer would definitely be yes.

tonyparson
07-20-2012, 11:07
If I can get my family out safely that is my first priority. If I am trapped, then fight to the death.

This for sure...

Kriterian
07-20-2012, 11:12
Given the crowded theater would you have returned fire?

IF Yes, Reports say he had a kevlar vest, would you still return fire?

What are the implications of your bullet wounding others when you are defending yourself?

I wouldn't have had a choice in the matter since in NC we're not allowed to carry where crowds gather and an admission fee is charged. So no carrying in movie theaters, or concerts etc.

I was at a midnight showing last night too with my wife, daughter and her fiance. This is extremely scary and hits close to home.

rmodel65
07-20-2012, 11:58
press confrence just said he had an 870, AR15 and 2 glocks

Southswede
07-20-2012, 12:16
Given the crowded theater would you have returned fire?

IF Yes, Reports say he had a kevlar vest, would you still return fire?

What are the implications of your bullet wounding others when you are defending yourself?

People who have been through the necessary CCW class and training should already know what they can and cannot do.:dunno:
Not trying to be a smartass or anything.

Mayhem like Me
07-20-2012, 12:21
law of averages say there was someone in that theater carrying concealed.. so No it seems not!

Me personally yes..I am always armed with at least one most times two pistols.

Mark9Fogger
07-20-2012, 13:41
I'm going to the Dark Knight Rises movie IMAX theatre here in town sometime soon. I will be carrying two spare mags instead of one in case of copycats :steamed:

poodleplumber
07-20-2012, 14:32
The guy was shooting children, even a baby. No way I pass if I have a clear shot that can end the carnage and save lives. I understand and agree that getting your family out is top priority, but taking a clean shot gets your family out of danger, too.

I don't know in that light whether a defensive shooter would see that he had on body armor, but I am not going to stop to evaluate such a possibility in a life-threatening emergency. It seems advisable to walk ones shots up to the neck/head area if two COM don't slow him down for any reason.

One thing that might be interesting to consider is, how clean of a shot does a defender have to have in a situation like this? Is there a point where you accept a level of risk of harm to bystanders from your defensive shooting in order to stop the huge amount of lead pouring out from a guy like this? IOW, is there a point where your thoughts go to doing the greatest good for the greatest number?

RussP
07-20-2012, 15:04
post from Cop Talk...71 people shot
12 dead so far

2 Glock 40 caliber handguns
1 Remington 870 shotgun
1 AR15

shooter had on his person all Black...
Ballistic helmet
Tactical Ballistic vest
Ballistic leggings
Throat and groin protectors
Tactical gloves

He used two devices in his assault that set off some kind of irritant, yet to be determined what specifically the irritant was.Bad guy outfitted like that, does it change anyones plans?

Southswede
07-20-2012, 15:26
post from Cop Talk...Bad guy outfitted like that, does it change anyones plans?

Nope. Not mine.......

concretefuzzynuts
07-20-2012, 15:29
post from Cop Talk...Bad guy outfitted like that, does it change anyones plans?

Yes. No one knows what they will do in that circumstance. In this case, with the body armor he had, a body tackle would be effective. Would I have been able to do it? I don't know.

Too many variables to say what should or could have been done.

jhmayhem
07-20-2012, 16:17
post from Cop Talk...Bad guy outfitted like that, does it change anyones plans?

I just found out about the shotgun but was aware of the other factors so my response is the same. A bad guy with that kind of arsenal and armor, along with the tear gas/irritants in the air mixed in with the mass panic and darkness, makes this truly a worst case scenario for any lone CCWer no matter how trained they are.

Louisville Glocker
07-20-2012, 17:17
Obviously, your location with respect to the shooter makes a world of difference.

Nasty situation anyway you look at it. But I'd rather be armed than unarmed. That is for sure.

For me, carrying is legal in Kentucky theaters. (I have CCDW license). (signs aren't legally binding). I'd be with one or two of my kids. If it was a midnight show, I'd be with my 9 year old. He's skinny. I'd yell at him to get under a chair and hide. I'd push him down there to make sure it happened fast. At least he wouldn't be a target. Then, using a chair as cover, I'd take aim, and open fire at the sucka. And yeah, you'd never know he had armor, but you'd only have his upper body to shoot at (seating covering lower half), so a head hit would be a strong possibility if you took your time and got a decent shot or ten off. The key is to somehow not panic, and not to let your adrenaline take over.

Running makes it likely you'll get shot in the back.

p.s. This is a scenerio when you want high cap mags, and/or some extra mags on your belt.

Deaf Smith
07-20-2012, 17:38
Denver Shooting, as CC would you shoot back?

HELL YES.

What is more, due to the several times nutjobs have had body armor it's my policy to aim for the head in such situations. I would not even consider a body shot unless it's all I've got.

Plenty of these shootings have had them use body armor so plan on a head shot.

Deaf

RussP
07-20-2012, 17:54
This is a post in the Cop Talk thread on this...From another board: "The enemy is stepping up his game; are you?"



Something to consider.

Agonizer
07-20-2012, 17:55
Depends on circumstances, but no matter what, I would rather be armed, than not. At least you stand a chance.




.

concretefuzzynuts
07-20-2012, 19:33
Depends on circumstances, but no matter what, I would rather be armed, than not. At least you stand a chance.




.


After much thought, this.

ChrisFB
07-20-2012, 21:38
Horrible thing. Complete disgrace of a human being. Why will people not simply kill themselves rather than this. Anyway on topic...

1) impossible to know exact circumstances but I gave this a lot of though as I was at the theater tonight seeing Ice Age 3 with wife/kids. Some odd layouts so I can only speculate
2) first priority is my family but if I can't get them out and this asshat is executing people without resistance you need to consider offence so I'd create space and line up a clean shot if able
3) assuming family was secured I just could not live with myself hearing him kill women and children and to think I did nothing and let them die. I live in this world and I reject that bull****. If he's wearing a mask in the dark with all the theater stuff I figure there's a decent chance he won't see me coming
4) this is a scenario where you shoot that bastard into the ground screw his armor. He may not be neutralized but you keep rounds on him the entire time and he's in a world of incapacitation (temporary is good enough I have spare mag). Eventually you select unprotected areas or maybe someone closer can grab hold of him. Either way rounds on him is a game changer and saves lives/time so people escape and he can't continue an easy rampage. worst case he takes cover and is pinned down looking for source.

I'm not saying all that works or there are not circumstances where none of it does. Basic thoughts and plan. Better to have some ideas and options than wait for a bullet in you and your kids. Either way, just once can't people be armed when one of these nutcases pulls this crap. Not saying we need a hero or positive CCW news but I want a surprised and dead perp.

G22Dude
07-20-2012, 22:19
My first priority would be to get my family out. However, if doing so means we're going to be shot down as we run then they need to hit the deck while I return fire. I guess the fact that he was geared up lends credence to the notion that he was prepared to stand his ground and fight. Well so be it. I've worn body armor long enough as a LEO to know that it isn't magic. Getting hit with a round will cause trauma. Several rounds hitting the armor will really ruin his day. Plenty of cops have unfortunately died from lucky rounds penetrating body armor, this d-bag may have also had such bad luck.

I find it fascinating that even though he was geared up, he didn't stand and fight when confronted by local LEO's. In Tuscaloosa, AL the shooter wanted to go out suicide by cop, but also ended up running, and turned himself in later. I am hard pressed to think that these guys have the stones to stand and fight. They were going for easy targets

chevy01234
07-20-2012, 22:19
Unfortunately the shooter was very prepared which puts anyone responding at a huge disadvantage...some sort of tear gas, darkness, explosions, a packed crowd, body armor, and him having a long gun would put anyone at a huge risk engaging him.

I was up this morning watching the news when the story broke and immediately tried to think about how one could react to that situation. I am not a swat team, I am not a police officer, I am not a super expert marksman that is impervious to emotion or adrenaline. I have never been in a situation even remotely similar to that and pray I never am. I would like to think if I was in a position to engage him, at least it would draw fire away from the other people and hopefully persuade him to break off his shooting of innocents and focus on the guy shooting back at him. The catch with that plan is he would turn his superior firepower towards you which would not be good. I have night sights on my carry gun, how much good would that do if my eyes were tearing up and burning from some sort of tear gas? Probably not much. That would really hinder "precision" shots to say the least. I carry a flashlight when I am in dark places (like a movie theater), that would only give him an immediate "shoot the light" reaction. I could not sit by and watch him continue to shoot people though like most folks on here couldn't. It would be very hard to tell he had body armor on but there are other places to shoot someone wearing armor. The pelvic region will break him down instantly if you hit bone plus there are some pretty big arteries running around down there. Once he is down, you keep shooting until he stops moving. The head of course will remove his will to fight quickly but that target area is a small one, especially when you can't see your sights and he is moving/shooting. It would be ideal to flank him and catch him off guard for a shot to the back of the head but you would be shooting back toward the crowd trying to run away and you would stick out like a sore thumb running the opposite way of the crowd in their retreat. I, like anyone else cannot begin to fathom how I would react if in that situation. That is even more of a reason to hit the range and practice under as many circumstances as possible. Low Light/no light drills..failure to stop drills... precision shot drills..shooting while moving drills..shooting from barricaded positions...the list goes on. The only hindrance in that "practice" is the fact that there is no way to replicate the adrenaline dump or FEAR that would certainly come with that situation and as mentioned the addition of chemical agents designed to take your will to fight away. I pray none of us are ever in that situation. I also pray that if I am ever forced into that situation, I would have the composure and courage to run towards the gun fire instead of the natural urge to run away from it. I am not saying that sound heroic or ballsy or even dumb...again, I have no idea how I would react but if I was in a theater full of friends and family members, I could not sit by and let a massacre continue.

This is all coming from a single man with no wife or kids...would my reaction be different if I had a family in tow? Hell yea it would.

Prayers sent for all of those involved in Colorado. It really makes one dig deep into their "plans" and realize how you never stop preparing and learning from situations.

ConcealedG23
07-20-2012, 22:23
Either way, just once can't people be armed when one of these nutcases pulls this crap. Not saying we need a hero or positive CCW news but I want a surprised and dead perp.

I'm wondering why you think there hasn't? I'm no consperousy theorist but, I do have an appreciation of the bias in main stream media. I don't see them championing the merits of law abiding citizens defending themselves and, secondarily, the surrounding public with a lawfully concealed firearm. Anyways, if someone did successfully defend them self, the result wouldn't be mass murder and that won't result in massive media sales and headlines. That's how I see it anyways.

Back to the point of the OP. Like many have already said, it all depends. Whether I would or I wouldn't, you can bet I would be ready.

D

G22Dude
07-20-2012, 22:29
I'm wondering why you think there hasn't? I'm no consperousy theorist but, I do have an appreciation of the bias in main stream media. I don't see them championing the merits of law abiding citizens defending themselves and, secondarily, the surrounding public with a lawfully concealed firearm. Anyways, if someone did successfully defend them self, the result wouldn't be mass murder and that won't result in massive media sales and headlines. That's how I see it anyways.

Back to the point of the OP. Like many have already said, it all depends. Whether I would or I wouldn't, you can bet I would be ready.

D

On 20/20 tonight they showed videos of several armed robberies that ended with the victims fighting back. The reporter was visibly taken aback by the notion that the victims would take these actions.

I will never understand the sheep mentality. I would rather die fighting back that begging on my knees and relying on the beanevolence of a turd that would shove a weapon in my face to get my property. Every fiber of my being screams that i must fight. I just can't think of another way

PAGunner
07-20-2012, 22:33
Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy, but I will say I'd like to think I'd be shooting back, even in the face of almost certain death and long odds, I've never been the kind of guy to go down looking, I'd rather go down swinging.

ConcealedG23
07-20-2012, 22:43
On 20/20 tonight they showed videos of several armed robberies that ended with the victims fighting back. The reporter was visibly taken aback by the notion that the victims would take these actions.

I will never understand the sheep mentality. I would rather die fighting back that begging on my knees and relying on the beanevolence of a turd that would shove a weapon in my face to get my property. Every fiber of my being screams that i must fight. I just can't think of another way


I missed the 20/20 episode. I watched 48 hours and they had a section on the weaponry used. They made every attempt to draw as much attention they could to the weapons and thier "high capacity clips". Sadly, it's almost laughable.

D

G22Dude
07-20-2012, 22:43
Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy, but I will say I'd like to think I'd be shooting back, even in the face of almost certain death and long odds, I've never been the kind of guy to go down looking, I'd rather go down swinging.

If this is how you define yourself then there is no doubt that you will act when faced with the situation. I've been in a couple situations where despite everything in my body and mind saying hey stupid maybe you need to run away like everybody else, I've made the decision to walk towards danger. I wanted to pee myself as I walked towards it but you remind yourself that being brave doesn't mean that you don't feel afraid. It means overcoming fear and acting

G22Dude
07-20-2012, 22:47
I missed the 20/20 episode. I watched 48 hours and they had a section on the weaponry used. They made every attempt to draw as much attention they could to the weapons and thier "high capacity clips". Sadly, it's almost laughable.

D

I recall after the VT shooting one of the hack media outfits ran an experiment where they set up a classroom situation where all the students wore Simmunitions gear. they then armed on student and pretty much always put the sap in the front row of glass. Then a local cop, acting as the bad guy, would burst into the room and would without fail for right for the kid who was packing the weapon. and shoot him.

The conclusion was that even if a student had been armed he/she would not have been able to act to overcome the shooting. I was so angry. I said what kind of idiot do you take us for. The cop knew who was armed. Unless I advertise on campus that I have a CCW,no attacker would single me out for special attention

Agonizer
07-20-2012, 22:54
I recall after the VT shooting one of the hack media outfits ran an experiment where they set up a classroom situation where all the students wore Simmunitions gear. they then armed on student and pretty much always put the sap in the front row of glass. Then a local cop, acting as the bad guy, would burst into the room and would without fail for right for the kid who was packing the weapon. and shoot him.

The conclusion was that even if a student had been armed he/she would not have been able to act to overcome the shooting. I was so angry. I said what kind of idiot do you take us for. The cop knew who was armed. Unless I advertise on campus that I have a CCW,no attacker would single me out for special attention

That was on 20/20.


.

G22Dude
07-20-2012, 22:57
That was on 20/20.


.

Why the hell am I spending so much damned time watching 20/20. Actually, I was over at the in-laws picking up my son, and it was on. ABC is filled with a bunch of hacks

LApm9
07-20-2012, 23:32
Am I correct in my observation that the shooter gave up as soon as he faced opposing firearms? I haven't heard any reference to the arresting officers firing upon him.

Is it possible that he would have emotionally folded, despite his weapons and armor, at the first impact? Or maybe the first return fire?

janice6
07-20-2012, 23:38
If I had the oppurtunity, of course.

You don't know if you are to die, go down hard.

Hour13
07-20-2012, 23:49
Ok, couple of thoughts. The notion of getting your children/loved ones down under seats is a good one, though possibly a challenge in this situation. I'm imagining a theatre filled to capacity, nut-job starts firing into the crowd. I can't imagine people are making their way to the center isle, then moving to the door. Picture several hundred people in a panic, clamoring over the seats, like the ones you're sitting in. So... go with the crowd & get shot, or stay put and get trampled?

If you are able to hunker down, the plus side is it won't take long for the crowd to clear, and cluster at the door trying to get out. BG's focus is where they are, as that's what he is shooting at. If you are down and out of view, this gives you an advantage.

This is important. If you do decide to return fire... Get the hell away from your family first. Your instinct is going to be to guard over them. Problem is, once you open fire, you've made your presence known, and identified yourself as his likely one & only immediate threat. Unless he craps his pants and runs, his focus, and bullets, are now directed at you. You do not want the ones you love near you at this point.

All in all, this is seriously a worst case mess. A panicked crowd log-jammed at the exit, a heavily armed nut firing at them. Low lighting, tear gas(?), BG with body armor.

No NV gear mentioned, so at least his vision is compromised as well, and while the gas mask protects him from the smoke, it will also shrink his field of view. The body armor has it's downsides, if he decides to take cover, his only option will be the rows of seats, which in most theaters are pretty narrow.

Just understand that odds are almost 100% you will get shot. A non-lethal hit from a 5.56 round will still likely leave you with some form of disability for life.

Do what you can, save the ones you love, and hope that you survive it.



My heart goes out to those who survived, and those who didn't.

wrangler_dave9
07-20-2012, 23:56
As posted by others already, if I had a clear view of the target and could hit him without endangering others, yes, I would return fire. But if you couldn't see and just started blindly shooting out of fear and hoping you hit the suspect, that would be just as bad as being the original shooter IMO.


Being an American. My greatest blessing.

kirgi08
07-21-2012, 04:36
Important...Your kin were in the Aurora movie theater?Can you explain that for those not familiar with the phrase, please.

Sorry Russ,I was in a hurry.No my family was not there.As ta the "think long think wrong",I try ta have my reactions thought out.

I would have tried ta get my family out as a first priority,if forced ta fight I would have.'08.

Misty02
07-21-2012, 05:36
One woman who was in the theater said she was so close she could have touched him and that she was looking down the barrel of his rifle. So it wasn't that dark or smokey where she was.

Had an armed "good guy" been that close, a head/neck shot could have been possible. Even a groin shot would have slowed or stopped him.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/20/12854157-aurora-suspect-james-holmes-was-buying-guns-dropping-out-of-graduate-school?lite


He was wearing a black ballistic or bullet-resistant helmet, a ballistic tactical vest with pockets, ballistic leggings, throat and groin protectors, a gas mask and ballistic tactical gloves, Oates said.

Misty02
07-21-2012, 05:41
Impossible to know.
A better question at the moment is would you CC if you were going to the movie tonight? (Which I am)
On the one hand you might want to be prepared for a copy cat, but on the other, people are on high alert, and you just might make the news even if you have a permit. "Man brings gun into local theater"........ story tonight at 10.

Since I made the commitment to carry the only question about it has been ďwhere is it illegal?Ē If it is legal Iím carrying, it eliminates the guesswork as to where one carries or not.

.

Misty02
07-21-2012, 05:48
Important...Your kin were in the Aurora movie theater?Can you explain that for those not familiar with the phrase, please.

My bossí daughter lives in Aurora and had tickets to the premier in that theater. She is 7 months pregnant and was going with her husband and 11 year old son. It was not until after 11:00 AM that she was able to get through her cell phone to find out she had not been feeling well and decided to not go. Needless to say, she [my boss] was a nervous wreck.

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Misty02
07-21-2012, 06:09
I wouldn't have had a choice in the matter since in NC we're not allowed to carry where crowds gather and an admission fee is charged. So no carrying in movie theaters, or concerts etc.

I was at a midnight showing last night too with my wife, daughter and her fiance. This is extremely scary and hits close to home.

It is really a shame we don’t think about acting/reacting as organized groups with a common goal. I understand it would have been nearly impossible to effective communicate with others in that chaos; however, there was “one” gunman and hundreds of victims.

Would it have been wise and effective for a concealed carrier to start shooting in that theater? I don’t know. But what could have likely happened if a group of those present had elected to risk their personal safety and jumped the gunman? Definitely some would have been shot, but it’s likely many would have been spared.

Just a thought, it’s not always about shooting but coming up with a strategy that may yield the least number of dead/injured.

We don’t go to the movies frequently, when we do it is almost the entire family and at least 4 of us are armed. This has made me rethink how we sit. We usually take an entire row. That means some of the strongest in our group may be stuck sitting 3 or more seat in and mobility to the isle could be cumbersome and take too long. Perhaps sitting in clusters of 4 near the isles with children toward the inside may be wiser. The seats won’t offer them cover but it may be enough to offer some concealment as they can hide under the seats better than an adult could. Having the stronger adults by the isle may be enough for them to quickly engage and/or distract that individual. It is not as likely to work if there are multiple gunmen that are spread.

Just bouncing off thoughts as I develop a better plan. Last night we went to a restaurant at our local mall (it has a theater in it), the police presence was incredible! It seemed as every patrol car available was circling that parking lot. Inside the mall there were clusters of officers all over the place, we had never seen anything like it before (other than after 9/11).
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Misty02
07-21-2012, 06:17
post from Cop Talk...Bad guy outfitted like that, does it change anyones plans?

The ability for anyone to see and/or focus must have been extremely difficult. Hiding and shooting when and if there is no other choice would have been my original thought, but letís face it, I donít exactly fit under a seat. It was also mentioned that he shot people attempting to leave. That leaves fight or die with the next question being, how do you fight and with what?

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Misty02
07-21-2012, 06:32
My first priority would be to get my family out. However, if doing so means we're going to be shot down as we run then they need to hit the deck while I return fire. I guess the fact that he was geared up lends credence to the notion that he was prepared to stand his ground and fight. Well so be it. I've worn body armor long enough as a LEO to know that it isn't magic. Getting hit with a round will cause trauma. Several rounds hitting the armor will really ruin his day. Plenty of cops have unfortunately died from lucky rounds penetrating body armor, this d-bag may have also had such bad luck.

I find it fascinating that even though he was geared up, he didn't stand and fight when confronted by local LEO's. In Tuscaloosa, AL the shooter wanted to go out suicide by cop, but also ended up running, and turned himself in later. I am hard pressed to think that these guys have the stones to stand and fight. They were going for easy targets

My question, depending where one is, how do you take those shots with all those irritants in the ambiance impairing your vision and the hundreds of people running around? It sounds as if there was chaos in that theater. Using the back rest as concealment would mean youíre low and likely to hit innocent people attempting to escape.

It doesnít mean I wonít entertain the idea if it means the life of one of my kids or grandkids. Needless to say, the need to minimize the collateral damage would be very present in my thought process (which would likely get me killed) and only worth it if my family is saved for doing so.

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Misty02
07-21-2012, 06:35
Depends on circumstances, but no matter what, I would rather be armed, than not. At least you stand a chance.




.

And even I you don’t stand a chance, you at least have other options available.

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steveksux
07-21-2012, 08:09
post from Cop Talk...
Ballistic helmet
Tactical Ballistic vest
Ballistic leggings
Throat and groin protectors
Tactical gloves
Bad guy outfitted like that, does it change anyones plans?

I'm thinking if I see a guy with a ballistic helmet and gas mask, body armor would not be a surprise. But that doesn't really help all that much.

The hard part is why aren't the rounds having an effect?
Its dark, crazy stress, is the guy wearing a vest? Or are you simply missing? How to tell?

If he's got a vest, aiming for the head is the obvious choice, but if if it turns out you were really just missing COM, you aren't likely to hit his head.

And you can see the helmet, probably there's an area that's unprotected, but it's even smaller than the whole head, and a whole head is a hard shot to make from any distance, let alone a moving person, in a dark theater, who's shooting people, probably at you, with a better weapon than you've got at your disposal.

The likely outcome is you among the dead. Unless its your lucky day. You're very unlikely to prevail in a situation like that. You can distract him for a while, give your family a chance to get out, or some other patrons.

Nobody knows what they'd do until they're in a situation like that. Hell, nobody knows they're in a situation like that until its over. Most would not realize they're dealing with someone in full body body armor with that much firepower until they've already made the decision to fight or flee.

Getting away from family would seem to be the best strategy if you're fighting, staying with them to provide cover if you're trying to get out.

Not everyone has thought about the Kobiyashi Maru simulation. Usually I think people think of winnable scenarios for how they'd react/intervene if something goes down. The hard question is what do you do when getting out is not an option. Hard choices without easy answers.

I have done some thought regarding crowded areas, maybe take a knee and shoot upwards, so if you miss it will go over other people's heads. That takes away your mobility though, makes you a sitting duck. And only works if people aren't fleeing between you and him. Even standing straight up, with people running they're liable to get in your line of fire and do so much too fast for you to react and not shoot. And depends on how close, how confident you are you won't miss at that distance.

Randy

jakebrake
07-21-2012, 08:31
clear line of fire?

hell yes.

save my family? not a question.

so, i can fight, or just die.

figure if i'm gonna die, i'm not going down without a fight.

RussP
07-21-2012, 08:47
Another fact to consider, all his clothing was black and he wore a gas mask over his face. In a darkened theater, light coming only from the projected image, there is not much contrast between the shooter and the surroundings.

If his face is uncovered, the target area is more distinguishable, contrating with the background.

SPIN2010
07-21-2012, 08:56
A CCW event is always split second, and if the (my) safety variables were there (properly ID'd) you bet I would.

You know there is a reason you carry a flashlight with your EDC ... right?

concretefuzzynuts
07-21-2012, 09:06
A CCW event is always split second, and if the (my) safety variables were there (properly ID'd) you bet I would.

You know there is a reason you carry a flashlight with your EDC ... right?

A flashlight is great but it gives your position away.

ConcealedG23
07-21-2012, 09:06
Am I correct in my observation that the shooter gave up as soon as he faced opposing firearms? I haven't heard any reference to the arresting officers firing upon him.

Is it possible that he would have emotionally folded, despite his weapons and armor, at the first impact? Or maybe the first return fire?

From the limited and incomplete information available, I believe this to be true. It sounds like he didn't even atemp to hole up any where, take any hostages or do anything to prolong a stand off. Even with all the tactical gear and armor, I believe the first show of opposing force the dude would have come up against he would have given up.

I have also heard stories that there were periods of time that he stopped shooting to reload or something. Does that change what people would do? It seems that would present the best opportunity to move to a more desirable tactical/firing position to engage the perp.

D

G22Dude
07-21-2012, 09:07
I am curious about his choice of gear. By all indication he could easily have been mistaken for a SWAT team member, minus the police identifiers that are worn on the uniform. I wonder if this was deliberate on his part. The guy obvious did something prior to acting

poodleplumber
07-21-2012, 09:33
I hadn't thought about the odd dichotomy between him being so thoroughly covered in body armor and his surrendering to police so readily until it was brought up in this thread. My mind then wandered via a circuitous path to this thought:

Does the gas mask give you a target? Do they come in armored varieties? Do they restrict vision a bit, and if so would hitting it, thus rearranging it on his face or breaking a lens, not make it significantly more difficult for him to function, even if you didn't penetrate the brain case with the first shot? I know this sounds desperate as a tactic, but the situation was pretty desperate, as well.

Just kind of thinking out loud here. If this is a completely dumb idea, be gentle.

Glockdude1
07-21-2012, 09:39
I am curious about his choice of gear. By all indication he could easily have been mistaken for a SWAT team member, minus the police identifiers that are worn on the uniform. I wonder if this was deliberate on his part. The guy obvious did something prior to acting

The painted red hair would give him away.......

Misty02
07-21-2012, 09:44
The painted red hair would give him away.......

How do you see hair that is likely covered by the helmet?

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ChrisFB
07-21-2012, 09:48
I'm wondering why you think there hasn't? I'm no consperousy theorist but, I do have an appreciation of the bias in main stream media. I don't see them championing the merits of law abiding citizens defending themselves and, secondarily, the surrounding public with a lawfully concealed firearm. Anyways, if someone did successfully defend them self, the result wouldn't be mass murder and that won't result in massive media sales and headlines. That's how I see it anyways.

Back to the point of the OP. Like many have already said, it all depends. Whether I would or I wouldn't, you can bet I would be ready.

D
Valid by in this case even if he was quickly neutralized the intent was blatant given arms, armor, and trapped apartment. In other cases it is harder to determine intent to go this far (ie Florida grandfather might have saved everyone in the place or they may have taken the money and left without issue). Valid point nonetheless but still waiting for the day such a blatant ******* runs into the wrong person(s) and hopefully it's every single time innocent lives are threatened.

Sam Spade
07-21-2012, 09:57
Smart guy. No doubt in my mind that he studied the bastard in Norway.

If you have the shot, take it. If not, don't. Let's not make this more complicated than it needs to be. Let's not enter paralysis by analysis.

I've said before that your gun isn't a talisman. Neither is his.

AlexHassin
07-21-2012, 10:39
I’m rarely the shoot um up type. But I would have if I had aclear shot.

I guess its sort of a hunters dilemma though. do you takethe first clear shot you have, or do you wait on the chance he gets closer andyou can still shoot?

Way I look at it, even if you do not incapacitate him. It willhopefully buy time for more to escape.

Glockdude1
07-21-2012, 10:48
How do you see hair that is likely covered by the helmet?

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I forgot he was wearing a helmet..... :embarassed:

Stevekozak
07-21-2012, 11:30
If you have the shot, take it. If not, don't. Let's not make this more complicated than it needs to be. Let's not enter paralysis by analysis.

I've said before that your gun isn't a talisman. Neither is his.
This. Not much more to be said on the matter.

Misty02
07-21-2012, 11:32
Smart guy. No doubt in my mind that he studied the bastard in Norway.

If you have the shot, take it. If not, don't. Let's not make this more complicated than it needs to be. Let's not enter paralysis by analysis.

I've said before that your gun isn't a talisman. Neither is his.

At the scene there will be little time, if any, to formulate a good plan. However, having at least discussed various possibilities before the fact should give people a base to work from, so long as that base is adaptable and easy to change depending on the actual circumstances being faced.

Iíve personally never faced anything even remotely similar to the magnitude of what these people faced. Using the few dangerous situations Iíve faced as a guide for possible future reactions, it is likely Iíll quickly develop a plan of action and see it through believing it is the right one. From one of those situations, I also know that, after the fact, Iíll review what I did and become horrified with what could have actually happened (none of which was taken in consideration at that particular time). Iím not alive today because Iíve always been prudent; Iím alive because I was lucky. Iíll take it, but I would like to have a bit more than just luck on my side.

Knowing yourself is important. Iím big on dissecting and over-thinking all the possibilities if I stop to think about it, that has only occured before and after. The more plans and thoughts I arm myself with now, the fewer ďI canít believe I actually did _____. THAT was stupid!Ē Iíll have after the fact (at least I pray that is the ultimate result). No real complaints with the results to date, but I canít count on luck always being on my side either.


,

LApm9
07-21-2012, 11:41
Being as I am an old dude...kids in their careers, enough dough set aside to support the wife...how could I not do something?

Even if I just rang his bell a little, it might give some young person a chance to escape.

Heavy question...it goes beyond the technical.....

Misty02
07-21-2012, 11:43
This. Not much more to be said on the matter.

You know Iím going to disagree with this, donít you? :)

There is much to learn and much to be said so we can learn from the ideas of others. Has any of this affected your seating selection for the next time you go to the movies? If so, which changes would you make and why?


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volsbear
07-21-2012, 11:50
You know I’m going to disagree with this, don’t you? :)

There is much to learn and much to be said so we can learn from the ideas of others. Has any of this affected your seating selection for the next time you go to the movies? If so, which changes would you make and why?


.

But what's to learn isn't whether you'd shoot or not. The next incident won't play out the same. It's impossible to say what you'd do. Everybody's Rambo until they're wearing the brains of the guy next to you. Our computers are a more hospitable place to be heroes than a fire fight would be.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Stevekozak
07-21-2012, 11:56
You know Iím going to disagree with this, donít you? :)

There is much to learn and much to be said so we can learn from the ideas of others. Has any of this affected your seating selection for the next time you go to the movies? If so, which changes would you make and why?


.

Yep, I know.:) I didnt mean that the situation doesn't need or warrent discussion. I just meant that the answer to the original OP question boiled down pretty succinetly in Sam Spade's post. I think, and I am sure he will correct me if I assume wrongly, that Sam was saying that in the moment, overthinking the response could lead to paralysis (ie:inaction) and that would not be worth much and perhaps be fatal to the thinker in question. Thinking about things in advance is a very good thing, and discussion about such, if it stimulates productive thinking, is warrented.

I rarely go to the movies. For one thing I have a hard time sitting still that long. I have many times thought of what a horrible place theaters are from a safety standpoint. They seem tailor-made for carnage such as happened in Aurora. in answer to your question, it doesnt change where I sit in the theater, but probably does make it even more unlikely that I will be going to the theater.

Maine1
07-21-2012, 11:58
I am in the "how could you NOT" school. How could you live with yourself? I could not.

This guy was PLANNING on shooting people who ran AWAY FROM HIM.

My wife would get my son out, keeping as low as can be, and i would get away from them, find a shot, and pump as much lead into him as i could, armor or not.
Yes, i would likely die. But, i could also get shot along with my wife and kid trying to get away, hoping to go unnoticed. If i draw fire and give him a fight, he focuses on ME, while others can get out unscathed, including mine. Saving my families life is an acceptable way to die.
Sometimes life gives you a choice of two ****ty choices, and you choose the less brown one.
People died by running away. had they swarmed him and tore him apart limb from limb with their hands, people would have still died. But I'd bet it would be LESS.

We are becoming a society that has been told that violence does not solve problems, yet we revel in violent movies. And we are evidently unable to see when violence is needed and justified.

LApm9
07-21-2012, 12:04
But what's to learn isn't whether you'd shoot or not. The next incident won't play out the same. It's impossible to say what you'd do. Everybody's Rambo until they're wearing the brains of the guy next to you. Our computers are a more hospitable place to be heroes than a fire fight would be.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

In times of stress, you will revert to training. If one answers important questions now, in our peaceful homes, we are more likely to revert to those answers in times of chaos.

Train your mind now, or you will freeze up when it counts.

writwing
07-21-2012, 12:05
I will never understand the sheep mentality. I would rather die fighting back that begging on my knees and relying on the beanevolence of a turd that would shove a weapon in my face to get my property. Every fiber of my being screams that i must fight. I just can't think of another way

To get ahead in the corporate world you have to live on your knees. The reporter was just making sure he towed the company mark.

I was almost fired once over a public safety issue that I became aware of. Luckily no one got hurt before the issue was addressed. I stated in an email that we should have been proactive in addressing this issue. The recipient of the email chose to keep his head low and not "make waves" at the risk of someone dying.

Misty02
07-21-2012, 12:05
Being as I am an old dude...kids in their careers, enough dough set aside to support the wife...how could I not do something?

Even if I just rang his bell a little, it might give some young person a chance to escape.

Heavy question...it goes beyond the technical.....

Heavy question indeed! Quite likely the same question and thoughts in the minds of people in Flight 93 on 9/11. Sometimes we must be ready to lose the battle in order to win the war.

Gosh, now I have goose bumps all over!

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kirgi08
07-21-2012, 12:09
In times of stress, you will revert to training. If one answers important questions now, in our peaceful homes, we are more likely to revert to those answers in times of chaos.

Train your mind now, or you will freeze up when it counts.

:goodpost: :agree:

volsbear
07-21-2012, 12:11
In times of stress, you will revert to training. If one answers important questions now, in our peaceful homes, we are more likely to revert to those answers in times of chaos.

Train your mind now, or you will freeze up when it counts.

I can't argue that. Good post.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

redbaron007
07-21-2012, 12:15
You know Iím going to disagree with this, donít you? :)

There is much to learn and much to be said so we can learn from the ideas of others. Has any of this affected your seating selection for the next time you go to the movies? If so, which changes would you make and why?


.

I agree with you about further thinking about ones situational awareness.

This tragedy should raise the conversation about having more of an awareness whereever they are, including the home.

:wavey:

red

Creatism
07-21-2012, 12:17
My answer is a definite maybe. Clear line of fire, can I get my family out with out shooting, all those are questions I can't answer. If was there by myself more then likely, if I was pinned well I have a gun and ammo and will fight.


Typed from my iPhone with my thumbs!!

Misty02
07-21-2012, 12:29
But what's to learn isn't whether you'd shoot or not. The next incident won't play out the same. It's impossible to say what you'd do. Everybody's Rambo until they're wearing the brains of the guy next to you. Our computers are a more hospitable place to be heroes than a fire fight would be.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

I agree completely; knowing if it is wise to take that shot or not will be determined by the specific circumstances at the time. Being a bit more strategically conscious during our daily activities may be the most we can get from this tragedy. As you say, no two events will be alike but from each we can learn a little bit more. We also better find a way to learn to remain functional if we do happen to end up wearing the brains of the guy next to us. I donít exactly know how you do that, but the life of our loved ones may depend on it.

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Misty02
07-21-2012, 12:36
Yep, I know.:) I didnt mean that the situation doesn't need or warrent discussion. I just meant that the answer to the original OP question boiled down pretty succinetly in Sam Spade's post. I think, and I am sure he will correct me if I assume wrongly, that Sam was saying that in the moment, overthinking the response could lead to paralysis (ie:inaction) and that would not be worth much and perhaps be fatal to the thinker in question. Thinking about things in advance is a very good thing, and discussion about such, if it stimulates productive thinking, is warrented.

I rarely go to the movies. For one thing I have a hard time sitting still that long. I have many times thought of what a horrible place theaters are from a safety standpoint. They seem tailor-made for carnage such as happened in Aurora. in answer to your question, it doesnt change where I sit in the theater, but probably does make it even more unlikely that I will be going to the theater.

I believe your interpretation of Samís comment is correct as it is the same one I have. I also agree the time to think, strategize and plan is before; there might be no time during.

I know we will still go to the movies as certain ones are best enjoyed with a huge screen and surround sound. I also happen to enjoy the dinner/lunch after where we all talk about it. We wonít stop going to places we enjoy, I know that much, the thought process that goes into it will be modified slightly though.

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LApm9
07-21-2012, 13:29
I agree completely; knowing if it is wise to take that shot or not will be determined by the specific circumstances at the time. Being a bit more strategically conscious during our daily activities may be the most we can get from this tragedy. As you say, no two events will be alike but from each we can learn a little bit more. We also better find a way to learn to remain functional if we do happen to end up wearing the brains of the guy next to us. I donít exactly know how you do that, but the life of our loved ones may depend on it.

.

Early in my career, we were taught that, whenever you were working with dangerous equipment, you mentally plotted your exit paths when you first entered the work area. This was particularly important when there was only one practical exit path.

I always did that.

One day my little toy blew up in a big ball of yellow flame. I followed my pre-plotted path out. This was unremarkable except that I don't remember my exit...it was all automatic. I was so geeked with adrenaline that I broke the chain when I pulled the pin on the fire extinguisher.:supergrin:

That single conscious mental rehearsal of my escape route was sufficient.

Similarly, recently I was in an aircraft that had an in-flight emergency. The pilot simply told us the nature of the problem...everyone began their pre-ditch checklist without a further word...no panic...everybody was busy going through their predetermined routine.

Before your neighbor's brains splash on you, you have to have imprinted a plan on your mind, or you will panic/freeze. It doesn't require an elaborate process...just a single run through.

Southswede
07-21-2012, 13:49
Anyone ever see pictures of a person after getting shot in a vest? There IS an effect from being shot. With that said, the very least that will be accomplished by hitting the BG is that he/she will be distracted. That may allow innocent people to escape. (Of course that means we will begin taking rounds in our direction.)

Just something to consider......

Misty02
07-21-2012, 13:54
Early in my career, we were taught that, whenever you were working with dangerous equipment, you mentally plotted your exit paths when you first entered the work area. This was particularly important when there was only one practical exit path.

I always did that.

One day my little toy blew up in a big ball of yellow flame. I followed my pre-plotted path out. This was unremarkable except that I don't remember my exit...it was all automatic. I was so geeked with adrenaline that I broke the chain when I pulled the pin on the fire extinguisher.:supergrin:

That single conscious mental rehearsal of my escape route was sufficient.

Similarly, recently I was in an aircraft that had an in-flight emergency. The pilot simply told us the nature of the problem...everyone began their pre-ditch checklist without a further word...no panic...everybody was busy going through their predetermined routine.

Before your neighbor's brains splash on you, you have to have imprinted a plan on your mind, or you will panic/freeze. It doesn't require an elaborate process...just a single run through.

If that is all it takes then weíll be in great shape! I donít know many people that plan and plot for the likely (as well as some of the unlikely) more than I do. I confess to about 1/3 of my thoughts and Iím accused of ďover-thinkingĒ. Experience I have little of; thoughts and planning? Its better I donít go there. Being able to execute them all well is quite another story. :embarassed:

Iím also glad you were able to successfully execute your plan when your toy blew up and escaped to talk about it.

:wavey:
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kirgi08
07-21-2012, 13:57
Youse smart Misti.'08. :wavey:

NMGlocker
07-21-2012, 14:06
Close and kill or die trying.
When it comes to the defense of my family I am 100% expendable.

Misty02
07-21-2012, 14:37
Youse smart Misti.'08. :wavey:


:rofl::rofl: Yeah, right! I wish!

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Fred Hansen
07-21-2012, 15:16
Quoted from this thread: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1433248

Stampeding for the exit resulted in a dozen dead, and 59 wounded/maimed. The shooter positioned himself directly in front of the screen; between that, and the exit door he left open, he was lit up like a Christmas tree. He was firing into relative darkness, with a gas mask on, and with a blindingly bright light being projected into his eyes. Despite all of those catastrophically bad (for him) tactical disadvantages, without the distraction of returned fire, he merely had to continue to pump rounds into the writhing mass of panicked people before him in order to be deadly.

Now it could very well be that his flawless armor--made from the finest unobtanium, I'm sure--would render him completely invulnerable to 10mm 200 grain Winchester Ranger SXT; but I am willing to suffer the potential embarrassment of finding out the truth. I propose we let needle dick strap his armor back on, and run--as fast as he would like--back and forth in front of the same screen, in the same darkened theatre, while I empty my G29 in his general direction. I'd even let him toss in some smoke/irritant so as to be sporting about it. We'll do it for the sake of scientific inquiry.

OTOH we could just train people to piss themselves, and assume the fetal position, but alas, then people run the risk of being aborted by liberal passers-by. :upeyes:

A.I.D.S. Abortion, Euthanasia, Gun-Free Sheeple Zones... Don't Liberals Just Kill Ya?

It saddens me to think about how few people there are any more who even possess the will to fight. Piers Morgan, from Clinton News Network, even interviewed a 20-nothing guy who proudly told the tale of how he abandoned his girlfriend and their two children in order to save himself by running away. And just when I thought the Algorejizzonya Network couldn't sink any lower...

People have been conditioned to think that body armor has magical properties, and/or they believe that if someone is wearing it, they must be a tactical genius.

Anyone who cares to can perform the following experiment:

On a night with no Moon, turn on a light for a few minutes--let's say 5--then look out the window into the darkness, and note what you can see, and in what detail you can see it. Leave the light on, then go outside, and wait those same five minutes looking out into the darkness, then turn around and look through the same window you did before into the lit room, and note what you can see, and in what detail you can see it.

Needle dick, the genius college boy and gutless murderer, couldn't see **** in that theatre. Just a writhing mass of panicked victims into which he fired blindly. It also seems to escape people that the cops never fired a shot; needle dick surrendered the moment men with guns arrived.

:steamed:
Would any of that be definitive proof of a perfect ending? No. Life doesn't work that way. What we know for a fact is that the modern de-balled male is totally useless. As evidenced in this thread: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1433406

And as I pointed out in that thread, were I to act as he did, I'd pray for the strength to kill myself. JMO YMMV

Rick C
07-21-2012, 15:33
After Midnight, I can only suppose what I would do.
Itís one of the reasons that we go to matinees, as there are more like-minded folks.

Mark9Fogger
07-21-2012, 15:54
I have to say that after reading this thread and other related ones I called a couple of LEO buddies of mine to see if we can set up some active shooter scenarios at the dept range. I need to train more than let other things get in the way. Just sayin . . .

Beretta92guy
07-21-2012, 16:34
after everything that has come out in the news now, i believe..and this is certainaly just an opinion....that if this clown had been met with resistance he would have folded.....

Yes he was decked out head-to-toe in riot-gear, seemingly ready to do battle....but once outside and confronted by LEO, he surrendered without a fight......

of course while this is happening you are not going to be able to "size that up" and tell....

and some people have said that if a few people would have jumped him, it might have been different.....but the "fight or flight" response in humans is a powerful adrenalin dump on the human body......and fighting someone that comes in shooting with an AR-15 and all you have is a large Coke and a bucket of popcorn, the FLIGHT response is the dominant one...

just my 0.02

Misty02
07-21-2012, 19:21
After Midnight, I can only suppose what I would do.
Itís one of the reasons that we go to matinees, as there are more like-minded folks.

We go to the matinees too, but because it is cheaper. :)

.

ConcealedG23
07-21-2012, 20:51
after everything that has come out in the news now, i believe..and this is certainaly just an opinion....that if this clown had been met with resistance he would have folded.....

Yes he was decked out head-to-toe in riot-gear, seemingly ready to do battle....but once outside and confronted by LEO, he surrendered without a fight......

I whole hartedly believe this to be the truth. It is sad that no one in the theater had a firearm to deploy. I truly think the outcome would be far different.

D

Agonizer
07-21-2012, 21:17
There is much to learn and much to be said so we can learn from the ideas of others. Has any of this affected your seating selection for the next time you go to the movies? If so, which changes would you make and why?


.

I am not changing anything. I will continue to go to the movies, armed as I always have.

The chances of anything like this actually happening are very small indeed.

Live life. Don't worry.



.

emtp2rn
07-21-2012, 21:19
In Michigan most if not all movie theaters post seating capacity 2500+ signs so they are considered pistol free zones. For me it would be protect the kids, escape, and evade.

I was less than comforted when after this horrible tragedy the local movie theater posted on Facebook that they would have extra staff on to ensure patron safety. Considering their staff is 16 year olds I'm not comforted.

The adjacent mall security guards wear duty belts but I laughed one day when I noticed the cuff case and oc spray case were empty decorations...

In the mall CCW is an option., and if someone is between me and the family then I do what is needed.

Prayers to the victims, families, and first responders.

NEOH212
07-22-2012, 02:30
It's hard to say how I would handle it unless I was there. Most likely, I'd be trying to get the heck out of dodge if I could do so without being in the line of fire.

Otherwise, I'd try to get behind some kind of concealment, preferably cover if I could find it. I'm assuming it was dark inside so target identification would be difficult at best and the risk of collateral damage high.

I normally would say I wouldn't be coming to the aid of another with my gun but in a instance like this, assuming I had a clear shot to the head, I'd probably take it. Mind you, it would have to be a CLEAR SHOT! (Not easy to do under stress by the way.)

I would have to weigh my options carefully at the time and hopefully make the right decision.

NEOH212
07-22-2012, 02:32
I know it's a little off base but does anyone know if the theater where the shooting happened was posted as a no carry zone?

I can't find anything either way on it? :dunno:

Lior
07-22-2012, 06:25
In 6/6 hindsight, all of us here made the right decision of not being at the site of the shooting, so we do not truly know what we would have done.

kirgi08
07-22-2012, 07:06
I know it's a little off base but does anyone know if the theater where the shooting happened was posted as a no carry zone?

I can't find anything either way on it? :dunno:

Yep,corporate choice.'08. :burn:

cgjane
07-22-2012, 08:03
I know it's a little off base but does anyone know if the theater where the shooting happened was posted as a no carry zone?

I can't find anything either way on it? :dunno:

It was a no carry zone. If it was allowed, the law of averages would have placed 1 or 2 CCs in the theatre.

RussP
07-22-2012, 08:38
It was a no carry zone. If it was allowed, the law of averages would have placed 1 or 2 CCs in the theatre.What do you mean, a "no carry zone"?

Stevekozak
07-22-2012, 08:42
It was a no carry zone. If it was allowed, the law of averages would have placed 1 or 2 CCs in the theatre.
I am afraid that, perversely, even more places will go to a no guns allowed stance in the mindset that they are "protecting the public". This is scary in that they will be creating an unarmed public subject to massacre. I suspect, however, that there will be more and more ppl ignoring such signs and electing to protect themselves in spite of the signage. I, personally, will not be going anywhere (except work, and that worrys me too) that prevents me from carrying.

kirgi08
07-22-2012, 09:24
Corporate Russ,the owners decreed that.'08.

Hour13
07-22-2012, 10:47
I know things differ state to state, but in Texas these "no carry zones" in regards to private property, carry no legal weight. I carry in theaters, I don't even check for signs because I honestly don't give a f ck.

If I'm in a private "NCZ" and somebody sees my concealed weapon... all they can do is ask me to leave(if this happens & you don't leave, THEN you're getting yourself in trouble). It has never happened, but if it did, I would leave, and never return.

The only time I don't have a gun on me, is on the VERY rare occasion that I decide to go to a bar.

Thankfully, work isn't an issue. My boss owns more guns than I do, several of which are stashed around our shop. And he's not an idiot, he considers it a bonus that I'm always armed at work. We get some questionable people wandering in from time to time.

RussP
07-22-2012, 11:25
Corporate Russ,the owners decreed that.'08.That's what I thought.

I believe it is important to distinguish between properties where carry is prohibited by law and property where carry is not prohibited by law, but restricted by the property's owner(s). Both are gun-free-zones, one by law, the other by request.

Short Cut
07-22-2012, 12:43
If I were found dead in that theater I hope it would be amongst my empty 10MM caseings.

flyboyvet
07-22-2012, 14:30
It was dark in the theater. No on knew he was wearing a vest until he was arrested. I would have shot back at him, had I a clear shot at him.

When it comes to bullet proof vests, many believe them to be a "magic shield" where bullets will just bounce off leaving the person wearing it unaffected.

B.S.

He would at least having the wind knocked out of him, severely slowing him down, more and more with every bullet hitting him. One bullet in his armpit would really hurt him.

:cool:

That has been the point I have tried to make, even to Vets like myself. Hollywood makes people think that if you are wearing BA then you are impervious to damage from a round. Ok, try putting on a vest and having a buddy shoot you, even a .38 and see how you feel!! I would shoot to slide lock!!

Deaf Smith
07-22-2012, 20:27
If I were found dead in that theater I hope it would be amongst my empty 10MM caseings.

Right thinking! Heck of alot better than just being some poor Joe that tried to hunker down behind the seats.

Deaf

uplinker
07-22-2012, 21:11
If I can get my family out safely that is my first priority. If I am trapped, then fight to the death.


This!!!

G22Dude
07-22-2012, 21:29
Right thinking! Heck of alot better than just being some poor Joe that tried to hunker down behind the seats.

Deaf

Even prior to this shooting I really started moving in the direction of not frequenting places that don't welcome my firearm. I just don't feel the need to place my safety in the hands of folks who don't respect my rights

RussP
07-22-2012, 21:39
Folks, there are a couple of threads in Cop Talk about this event with 1st hand information and feelings about what happened.

Not good - at LEAST 14 dead in Aurora Colorado mass shooting (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1433238)

I dont' Know... (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1433411)

NEOH212
07-23-2012, 02:16
Yep,corporate choice.'08. :burn:

Imagine that!

That policy really kept the people safe didn't it....:upeyes:


When will they learn? :shakehead:

steveksux
07-23-2012, 02:23
Imagine that!

That policy really kept the people safe didn't it....:upeyes:


When will they learn? :shakehead:Just wait. Wouldn't surprise me if the response to this would be getting serious about banning weapons on the premises. Not just signs tucked away in an obscure corner. Like checking purses, maybe even metal detectors.

Someone was checking purses the weekend after this, we went to see a movie. Small theater, < 2500 seats, so carry was legal there. Wife mentioned they probably should have checked me instead of checking her purse, might have been a bit surprised.

Maybe they were checking for people sneaking in candy.

The whole idea is preposterous. Ok. You check for guns, have metal detectors at the entrance.

This guy came in the back door for one thing. For another, with that much firepower, what's the poor schmuck going to do who's manning the metal detector going to do? Are they really going to hire off duty cops to man it, or people who couldn't hack mall security? Not sure what even a lone off duty cop could do against a guy like that.

Randy

FireForged
07-23-2012, 09:35
In a crowded movie theater full of smoke and running kids? I first answer is NO! NO WAY but...

If I were with my family and escape looked unlikely.. I would have used every bit of grit that I have to close the distance on that sucker and take shots at him (point blank).

Glock_9mm
07-23-2012, 16:28
No idea what I would have done...most likely reacted like/with everyone else. If I was at this show, I would of had my son with me and my first priority would be to keep him safe.

This certainly has me thinking more about my SA when I go out and re-emphasizes the fact that you should always being carrying where you are allowed to carry. Something that my wife has yet to understand.
Scott

Deaf Smith
07-23-2012, 17:24
I now understand that a LEO WAS present but the no-gun sign in Colorado means even off duty LEOs working there can't pack. Yes he was unarmed.

That WOULD NOT happen in Texas!!!

What insanity!

Deaf

NecoDude
07-23-2012, 22:17
Far beyond my anger and frustration at this *****HAT that did the despicable deed in my State, is my frustration and anger at those that say "well he was wearing full armor and you would have wasted your rounds"

I have to throw the BS flag right there... anyone who's familiar with firearms are aware of the bullet's kinetic powers.. they may have been bee stings to this POS but it would have distracted him and hopefully saved lives. Enough rounds might have even defeated the armor, not sure as I don't know what kind it was. I am not a sheep, not superman or Rambo but a citizen in our global community. Would I have tried to protect my life and those around me? Hell yes, that's what I'm prepared to do, train to do and aware of what might happen if I fail.

My heart and soul cry for those murdered and injured and their family and friends, and I pray they eventually find peace.

Misty02
07-24-2012, 03:20
I now understand that a LEO WAS present but the no-gun sign in Colorado means even off duty LEOs working there can't pack. Yes he was unarmed.

That WOULD NOT happen in Texas!!!

What insanity!

Deaf

As mentioned in another thread, would that be by policy?

Based on handgunlaw signs do not have the force of law in CO. If an officer is off-duty and has a license to carry wouldnít they have the same rights as any other citizen?


ďNo FirearmĒ signs in Colorado have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you are asked to leave you must leave. Always be aware of the possibility that responding Police Officers who may have been called without your knowledge and may not know the laws on trespass etc. could arrest you even if you are within the law.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf)

Misty02
07-24-2012, 03:25
I whole hartedly believe this to be the truth. It is sad that no one in the theater had a firearm to deploy. I truly think the outcome would be far different.

D

A silly question, how do we know that no one in that theater took a shot that was not effective in stopping the threat?

.

Misty02
07-24-2012, 03:47
I am not changing anything. I will continue to go to the movies, armed as I always have.

The chances of anything like this actually happening are very small indeed.

Live life. Don't worry.



.

Same here. We can avoid certain places that are not smart places to be, for me that means bars (no biggie since I rarely drink), ATMs at night (no biggie, I donít have an ATM card and there would be things I purposely donít do at night anyway-getting gas is one of many).

There are many places I refuse to give up. We donít go to the movies often, when we go is a full family affair; Iím not giving that up. Also not often is going out to dinner, another family affair. The reason it is not done often is due to cost, that much wonít change. Most movies we donít mind waiting until we can see it at home, we still make it a family affair but the cost is negligible. Treats to consume while watching are also cheap and better tasting. Going out to dinner is the same thing, with so many people involved, it narrows the number of places we can go to. We get to splurge, celebrate or treat ourselves ever so often but it is limited in the number of times a year we do so.

Weíre armed wherever legal, there is no thought process involved in that one, it is like putting on shoes. As you say, the chances of something like this actually happening are small. Nonetheless, no one would be able to predict the when and where, hence the reason for always being armed. There are no guarantees in life, we just have to do the best we can with what we have at the time.

I do learn from the experience of others though, thus there will be a little more forethought applied to seating and other minute details as we continue to enjoy the things we always have.

There are very few things I do that I donít plan. Iím not a spontaneous person and would not enjoy things if I didnít plan them to my liking, it is who I am. My husband is the spontaneous one so we learned early on that Iíll plan our outings and Iíll surprise him with it. This allows him to do something spontaneous on his part (which he enjoys) and it allows me to carefully plan it (which I enjoy). Simple, isnít it? :)


.

NMG26
07-24-2012, 04:13
I am in the "how could you NOT" school. How could you live with yourself? I could not.

This guy was PLANNING on shooting people who ran AWAY FROM HIM.

My wife would get my son out, keeping as low as can be, and i would get away from them, find a shot, and pump as much lead into him as i could, armor or not.
Yes, i would likely die. But, i could also get shot along with my wife and kid trying to get away, hoping to go unnoticed. If i draw fire and give him a fight, he focuses on ME, while others can get out unscathed, including mine. Saving my families life is an acceptable way to die.
Sometimes life gives you a choice of two ****ty choices, and you choose the less brown one.
People died by running away. had they swarmed him and tore him apart limb from limb with their hands, people would have still died. But I'd bet it would be LESS.

We are becoming a society that has been told that violence does not solve problems, yet we revel in violent movies. And we are evidently unable to see when violence is needed and justified.

I'll go with this. ^^^^


When there is a sea of people running away, running to the fight may not be possible.

Reminds me of a story I read about the Luby's massacre in Texas. A lady eating at the restaurant with her elderly parent had a ccw in the car because it was not legal at the time to carry in restaurants. Her father and mother died in the shooting. Her father died running unarmed at the shooter, to try and stop the shooting. The elderly lady died running to her fallen husband. The lady made it out, and lobbies for ccw rights. She said she could have made the shot, had she had her ccw on her.

bushhogg
07-25-2012, 20:42
this movie house is a gun free zone....out there .... no one is to have a firearm... law. if one was pulled in self defense you would probably been jailed...who knows what the police would have done????? The gun free zones are killing alot of people... laws need to be changed

RussP
07-25-2012, 21:07
this movie house is a gun free zone....out there .... no one is to have a firearm... law. if one was pulled in self defense you would probably been jailed...who knows what the police would have done????? The gun free zones are killing alot of people... laws need to be changedAny sign on the theater did not, does not carry the weight of the law. Go to the bottom of page 4 at this site: Do ďNo Gun SignsĒ Have the Force of Law? - "No" (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf)

Southswede
07-25-2012, 21:16
Any sign on the theater did not, does not carry the weight of the law. Go to the bottom of page 4 at this site: Do ďNo Gun SignsĒ Have the Force of Law? - "No" (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf)

I agree with you Russ. But it seems all there did not....shame really-the sybolism over substance.

Misty02
07-25-2012, 21:40
I agree with you Russ. But it seems all there did not....shame really-the sybolism over substance.

The police may not have released all the information they have in an ongoing investigation. It is possible there was someone armed and also possible they took a shot that was not effective in stopping the threat. We may never know if there was such a person there, but it doesnít necessarily mean there wasnít one.

I can tell you that had I been there and taken a shot that failed I would have just told the police and not a single other soul. I would also be praying until the investigation is over that my shot was not one that ended the life or injured an innocent person. I would beg, on my knees if necessary, to the police to not release any information about it nor my identity. They may not be able to keep it quiet forever, but they may be able to keep it quiet for a while. I assume that during discovery they would have to tell the defending attorney how many were killed or injured by their clientís bullets versus another party? I have no clue how that one would go.

.

RussP
07-26-2012, 08:46
this movie house is a gun free zone....out there .... no one is to have a firearm... law. if one was pulled in self defense you would probably been jailed...who knows what the police would have done????? The gun free zones are killing alot of people... laws need to be changedAny sign on the theater did not, does not carry the weight of the law. Go to the bottom of page 4 at this site: Do ďNo Gun SignsĒ Have the Force of Law? - "No" (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf)I agree with you Russ. But it seems all there did not....shame really-the sybolism over substance.Thanks Southswede...

I want to clarify the purpose of my post linking to the handgunlaw.us Colorado page.

bushhogg posted that the theater was a GFZ by law. I was providing information showing that was/is not the case.

I do not advocate violating the wishes of a private property owner. If a property is posted prohibiting firearms, I'll not carry there. In most cases that means I'll go elsewhere.

Misty02
07-26-2012, 16:09
Thanks Southswede...

I want to clarify the purpose of my post linking to the handgunlaw.us Colorado page.

bushhogg posted that the theater was a GFZ by law. I was providing information showing that was/is not the case.

I do not advocate violating the wishes of a private property owner. If a property is posted prohibiting firearms, I'll not carry there. In most cases that means I'll go elsewhere.

Something I just read recently that may muddy the water just a tad, perhaps not. Someone from CO may be able to shed more light on it.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf)

Preemption

(d) There exists a widespread inconsistency among jurisdictions within the state with regard to firearms regulations;

(e) This inconsistency among local government laws regulating lawful firearm possession and ownership has extraterritorial impact on state citizens and the general public by subjecting them to criminal and civil penalties in some jurisdictions for conduct wholly lawful in other jurisdictions;

(f) Inconsistency among local governments of laws regulating the possession and ownership of firearms results in persons being treated differently under the law solely on the basis of where they reside, and a person's residence in a particular county or city or city and county is not a rational classification when it is the basis for denial of equal treatment under the law;

(g) This inconsistency places citizens in the position of not knowing when they may be violating the local laws and therefore being unable to avoid violating the law and becoming subject to criminal and other penalties.

RussP
07-26-2012, 16:50
Something I just read recently that may muddy the water just a tad, perhaps not. Someone from CO may be able to shed more light on it.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf)

PreemptionYou need to read the remainder of that section. What you quoted describes the problem. The remainder says that in order to avoid the inconsistencies, the problems, no locality or jurisdiction may enforce any ordinance contrary to, not consistent with state law.

:wavey:

Deaf Smith
07-26-2012, 17:20
As mentioned in another thread, would that be by policy?

Based on handgunlaw signs do not have the force of law in CO. If an officer is off-duty and has a license to carry wouldn’t they have the same rights as any other citizen?

[/FONT]
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf)



18-12-214. Authority granted by permit - carrying restrictions.

(1) (a) A permit to carry a concealed handgun authorizes the permittee to carry a concealed handgun in all areas of the state, except
(2) A permit issued does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.
(3) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvements erected thereon, of a public elementary, middle, junior high, or high school
(4) A permit issued does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which:
(a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building;
(b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and
(c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.
(5) Nothing in this shall be construed to limit existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.

So no... no guns at the theater.

Deaf

cgjane
07-26-2012, 19:35
But here in Texas there is a specific signage with clear cut rules on how it is posted for business to put up: 30.06

RussP
07-26-2012, 20:01
(5) Nothing in this shall be construed to limit existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.

So no... no guns at the theater.

DeafDeaf, that says a private property owner's rights to control his property are not preempted by the state. It is not illegal to carry on private property.

A private property owner may post a sign prohibiting firearms, but that sign does not have the weight of the law. If you trespass against the sign, are told to leave and do not, then you have violated trespass law.

RussP
07-26-2012, 20:02
But here in Texas there is a specific signage with clear cut rules on how it is posted for business to put up: 30.06Yep, they be the serious signs....

Deaf Smith
07-26-2012, 20:31
Deaf, that says a private property owner's rights to control his property are not preempted by the state. It is not illegal to carry on private property.

A private property owner may post a sign prohibiting firearms, but that sign does not have the weight of the law. If you trespass against the sign, are told to leave and do not, then you have violated trespass law.

Yes but the Cinema were the shooting happened DID BAN THEM. Hence no guns were present but the nutjobs.

Deaf

RussP
07-26-2012, 20:51
Yes but the Cinema were the shooting happened DID BAN THEM. Hence no guns were present but the nutjobs.

DeafYes, I have read on forums that there was a sign. Some people are assuming since there is a sign, no one was carrying. Maybe it will come out later, whether anyone with a carry permit was in the theater.

redbaron007
07-27-2012, 07:03
Yes, I have read on forums that there was a sign. Some people are assuming since there is a sign, no one was carrying. Maybe it will come out later, whether anyone with a carry permit was in the theater.

This issue with the sign (if one exists) is, some folks are saying since they had it posted and the cinema didn't want firearms inside the premises, then they automatically assume responsibility for the patrons. Well, this is partially true.

Do they assume ALL responsibility? This is the question that will be determined by the courts. The question is, for the cinema, is basically, when a private property owner bans firearms from their property, what is the level of protection they should have to provide? Does the standard differ from a business property owner vs individual personal private property? Do they have to provide any?:dunno:

They will be some interesting court discussions. I curious to see how many settle out of court.


:wavey:

red

jhmayhem
07-28-2012, 13:00
Yes, I have read on forums that there was a sign. Some people are assuming since there is a sign, no one was carrying. Maybe it will come out later, whether anyone with a carry permit was in the theater.

Being that it is Colorado which is a pro-gun state and the signage doesn't hold the weight of the law, my money is on that there was a person(s) at the movie who did have a CCW on their person. However, I don't think it will come out that there was someone in the audience who was armed during the shooting because of the backlash he/she would get from internet commandos for not taking the shooter out and anti-gunners for whatever backwards reasoning they could come up with.