Facing a BG in body armor. Insights? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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RedsoxFan4Lyfe
07-21-2012, 20:57
Well the shooting in Colorado got me thinking about this I must admit.

I have seen the videos where the guy shoots himself point blank with a .44 Magnum pistol to demo his vest and nothing happens to him.

Do people hit with body armor on even feel it? I carry a Glock 19, 9mm loaded with +P Gold Dots. This incident got me thinking about something bigger I must admit.

I wonder if a hot 10mm or a hot .38 Super would effect someone in armor at close range. Some reports say the shooter was wearing a bullet proof helmet. So would a hot 10mm or .38 Super in the head have dropped him? All that energy has to go somewhere right?

I'm not an expert in body armor so forgive my ignorance. I'm just curious as to what one can do besides a Mozambique drill, which in a dark, smoke filled theater with screaming innocent people running for their lives is not really a viable option.

Thanks in advance.

Caver 60
07-21-2012, 21:42
I certainly don't know much about body armor either. Except there are different levels of body armor. The lightest being what the average officer working a normal shift every day all week long would wear. The heaviest being what some SWAT teams and military wear (even in the military I suspect there are different levels of body armor.) It's all at least somewaht uncomfortable to wear, especially in hot weather.

It's all designed to be effective in defending against varying threat levels. Some can be penetrated by hot handgun loads or even a bow and arrow or knife. Other stuff will stop or slow down some rifle ammo. The wearer stands a risk of some kind of injury with much of it. But hopefully it will save their life in many cases, or reduce the injury they sustain.

Probably be someone along shortly, with much more expertise than I have.

TactiCool
07-21-2012, 21:47
It is a popular myth that wearing body armor makes you invulnerable to the damage of being struck by a bullet. Even if the bullet is stopped by the vest, there is still the blunt force trauma to contend with, and that does not just magically disappear.

It is very possible that important blood vessels could rupture, ribs could be broken, and even the processes of the internal organs can be disrupted by blunt force trauma. Despite the fact that many vests have trauma plates, and more layers of bullet resistant fabric than necessary in order to lessen the trauma, life-threatening injury is still a serious possibility. Bottom line, BFT can kill.

Even if one is wearing the best level IIIA vest money can buy, getting hit by a .357, 10mm, or .44 mag will most certainly take a man out of the fight. Even getting hit by the lowly .380 will result in having a very bad day.

So if a kevlar-garbed BG comes after you, and you put a high-powered 9mm round into his chest, he will not likely be able to respond with any degree of proficiency. Very likely, the BG will be doubling over in crippling pain and could even go into shock. Only someone high on a drug like PCP would be able to just shrug it off.

smokeross
07-21-2012, 21:59
Talking with some cops today, and recent training is for 'center of mass' then 'two to the groin'.

plasticslap
07-21-2012, 22:08
FN Five-Seven. Case closed. Don't care what they're wearing now.

Scott3670
07-21-2012, 22:32
If I'm on the deck then perhaps I'd aim for an ankle or lower leg. No matter how you cut it, that should drop the BG and maybe stop him briefly from continuing to fire. Is this unrealistic? Maybe but if I was firing from cover then this might be my only option to catch his attention.

Wurger
07-21-2012, 22:43
Talking with some cops today, and recent training is for 'center of mass' then 'two to the groin'.

Broken pelvis will take perp of their feet. Very painful injury that will make it less likely for continued return fire. Bigger target than a head shot.

Wurger
07-21-2012, 22:46
If you get a side view of the shooter, you can slip one into the boiler room with a shoulder shot too (on most vests).

Wurger
07-21-2012, 22:50
It is a popular myth that wearing body armor makes you invulnerable to the damage of being struck by a bullet. Even if the bullet is stopped by the vest, there is still the blunt force trauma to contend with, and that does not just magically disappear.

It is very possible that important blood vessels could rupture, ribs could be broken, and even the processes of the internal organs can be disrupted by blunt force trauma. Despite the fact that many vests have trauma plates, and more layers of bullet resistant fabric than necessary in order to lessen the trauma, life-threatening injury is still a serious possibility. Bottom line, BFT can kill.

Even if one is wearing the best level IIIA vest money can buy, getting hit by a .357, 10mm, or .44 mag will most certainly take a man out of the fight. Even getting hit by the lowly .380 will result in having a very bad day.

So if a kevlar-garbed BG comes after you, and you put a high-powered 9mm round into his chest, he will not likely be able to respond with any degree of proficiency. Very likely, the BG will be doubling over in crippling pain and could even go into shock. Only someone high on a drug like PCP would be able to just shrug it off.

If he has a hard plate behind the vest he will feel very little when shot and will continue to fight unabated.

Increased use of body armor by bad guys has made me consider this topic before. Home invaders are starting to realize that not all victims are defenseless.

magiaaron
07-21-2012, 22:51
It is a popular myth that wearing body armor makes you invulnerable to the damage of being struck by a bullet. Even if the bullet is stopped by the vest, there is still the blunt force trauma to contend with, and that does not just magically disappear.

It is very possible that important blood vessels could rupture, ribs could be broken, and even the processes of the internal organs can be disrupted by blunt force trauma. Despite the fact that many vests have trauma plates, and more layers of bullet resistant fabric than necessary in order to lessen the trauma, life-threatening injury is still a serious possibility. Bottom line, BFT can kill.

Even if one is wearing the best level IIIA vest money can buy, getting hit by a .357, 10mm, or .44 mag will most certainly take a man out of the fight. Even getting hit by the lowly .380 will result in having a very bad day.

So if a kevlar-garbed BG comes after you, and you put a high-powered 9mm round into his chest, he will not likely be able to respond with any degree of proficiency. Very likely, the BG will be doubling over in crippling pain and could even go into shock. Only someone high on a drug like PCP would be able to just shrug it off.

That's not necessarily true. If you remember the North Hollywood shootout, the two guys involved in that took many a round in their armor. The lack of penetrative power in that shootout is part of the reason so many departments moved to having AR15s in the patrol cars. In fact, even shotgun rounds were not enough to cause a "bad enough day" to stop the fight. In fact, that shootout lasted nearly 45 minutes despite the insane number of officers involved. Ballistic armor really did a lot.

-magiaaron

TactiCool
07-21-2012, 23:14
That's not necessarily true. If you remember the North Hollywood shootout, the two guys involved in that took many a round in their armor. The lack of penetrative power in that shootout is part of the reason so many departments moved to having AR15s in the patrol cars. In fact, even shotgun rounds were not enough to cause a "bad enough day" to stop the fight. In fact, that shootout lasted nearly 45 minutes despite the insane number of officers involved. Ballistic armor really did a lot.

-magiaaron

And what was their armor made from? They didn't buy their armor at a store, they made it, so it will not necessarily have the same characteristics as the commercially available armor to which I am referring.

Hard armor/ rifle plating will not have the same characteristics as soft armor, of course. With steel, there will be less deformation but the trauma plates used in soft armor are not made from the same AR 400-500 steel that rifle plates are made from, and will still deform. Take a high-powered pistol round like the .44 mag, which delivers, on average, 800+ ft./lbs. of energy, and it will put a serious dent in that thin steel 5X8 trauma plate. Such a hit, even on the trauma plate, will end the fight unless BG is on PCP, or he is superman.

All soft armor vests certified by NIJ have a maximum allowable backface signature of 44mm's, which is right on the edge of damaging bones and deep bodily tissues. Taking a hit in such a vest, even IIIA, will most likely result in a potentially life-threatening injury and requires an immediate visit to the ER.

To think otherwise is patently foolish and could get someone killed. It is NOT some magic form of protection and does NOT make a person anything close to being invulnerable. Bottom line, it might keep you from dying, but armor is in no way guaranteed to keep you in the fight.

chemcmndr
07-21-2012, 23:28
To the OP: It is very difficult to say what will actually happen as it depends on several factors such as body armor type, weapon/caliber being used, drug/adrenaline level, and also willpower.

To give you a breakdown on ballistic armor, you have different levels ranging from 1 to 4. Level IIA is what is commonly worn as concealed body armor by most police officers. It will stop a variety of handgun rounds such as 9mm, and some of the magnum rounds. Level IIIA provides the greatest protection in soft, or concealable, body armor. This rating will stop .357 SIG, 9mm rounds from submachine guns, and .44 Magnums. Levels III and IV require steel/ceramic plates and will stop rifle rounds up to .30-06 AP rounds. These vests are not concealable and are typically what our military uses.

As far as what happens when someone is shot wearing a vest, that depends on the gun, vest level, and vest wearer's mindset. I've personally taken a 147 grain 9mm round from a Glock 19 to a Level IIIA vest from about 5' away and it felt like a stiff punch to the chest, but I wasn't on the floor or crying in pain either.

Even without the vest, I remember hearing that after about 2-3 rounds, the human body starts to not register any additional hits, so aiming for center mass will be less effective.

Given that you probably wouldn't be able to tell beforehand that the guy was wearing a vest, the best thing that you could do in that situation would be to place two aimed shots (controlled pair) to the center mass. If that was enough to stop the threat (due to either hitting vital organs, or BFT from multiple hits to the vest) then you're golden. However, if the threat is still there, then start taking carefully aimed shots at the CNS to shut the proverbial machine down.

M1A Shooter
07-21-2012, 23:29
also depends on drug use. ive heard of suspects with no armor taking 17 rounds from a 40 and still fighting. PCP helps the pain go away. with the higher uses of meth, its not unlikely that they might not feel much.

i have long agreed with the pelvic shots. they are very often overlooked but contain a large flat bone to absorb the impact of the bullet as well as a couple of the largest arteries in the body. i broke mine in a couple places when i got hit by a car so i can attest to it putting you down for quite awhile. actually i should say after the adrenaline wears off a bit. i landed on my feet but was unable to walk away.

carbuncle
07-21-2012, 23:38
It is a popular myth that wearing body armor makes you invulnerable to the damage of being struck by a bullet. Even if the bullet is stopped by the vest, there is still the blunt force trauma to contend with, and that does not just magically disappear.

It is very possible that important blood vessels could rupture, ribs could be broken, and even the processes of the internal organs can be disrupted by blunt force trauma. Despite the fact that many vests have trauma plates, and more layers of bullet resistant fabric than necessary in order to lessen the trauma, life-threatening injury is still a serious possibility. Bottom line, BFT can kill.

Even if one is wearing the best level IIIA vest money can buy, getting hit by a .357, 10mm, or .44 mag will most certainly take a man out of the fight. Even getting hit by the lowly .380 will result in having a very bad day.

So if a kevlar-garbed BG comes after you, and you put a high-powered 9mm round into his chest, he will not likely be able to respond with any degree of proficiency. Very likely, the BG will be doubling over in crippling pain and could even go into shock. Only someone high on a drug like PCP would be able to just shrug it off.

I made this point to a friend, a new shooter, who was considering getting his carry permit as a result of the most recent mass shooting. Inertia cannot be denied: even if the bullet stops, it's energy gets dumped into it's landing zone. If an armed citizen could even just clip the shooter with a couple of 9mm rounds it would disrupt his rhythm significantly by creating blunt force injuries. And bullet-proof helmet or not, a head shot is a life-threatening event no matter what you strapped on your brain bucket.

NEOH212
07-22-2012, 02:23
FN Five-Seven. Case closed. Don't care what they're wearing now.

Funny, I didn't know the 5.7 would defeat soft body armor without AP ammo....:whistling:

SgtScott31
07-22-2012, 03:24
With regards to the North Hollywood shootout, many of those 9mm rounds shot by LE came from a significant distance, losing their velocity in the process. I agree with the others regarding blunt force trauma. It's definitely going to play a role, especially at close distances. My agency just switched to the Gen 4 Glock 21 (.45). If that's not bringing them down, it's slowing them down enough for me to get to my M4 or 870 in the car.

happyguy
07-22-2012, 04:35
Shoot him in the gas mask.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Bodyarmorguy
07-22-2012, 04:40
FN Five-Seven. Case closed. Don't care what they're wearing now.

Funny, I didn't know the 5.7 would defeat soft body armor without AP ammo....:whistling:

It won't. Most armor packages easily defeat the commercially available 5.7x28 rounds.

Bodyarmorguy
07-22-2012, 04:48
To the OP: It is very difficult to say what will actually happen as it depends on several factors such as body armor type, weapon/caliber being used, drug/adrenaline level, and also willpower.

100% correct on all counts


To give you a breakdown on ballistic armor, you have different levels ranging from 1 to 4. Level IIA is what is commonly worn as concealed body armor by most police officers. It will stop a variety of handgun rounds such as 9mm, and some of the magnum rounds. Level IIIA provides the greatest protection in soft, or concealable, body armor. This rating will stop .357 SIG, 9mm rounds from submachine guns, and .44 Magnums. Levels III and IV require steel/ceramic plates and will stop rifle rounds up to .30-06 AP rounds. These vests are not concealable and are typically what our military uses.

There are level III plates that are very light, though a little thick, made of 100% poly materials. Generally they will not defeat AP rounds but are multi-hit rated against .308 and 5.56.

There are also plates that are known as IC (In-Conjunction) plates. Typically I hybrid of ceramics, glass, poly, etc. that by itself may be level III but when worn in conjunction with IIIA soft ballistics becomes a 1 or may 2-3 hit IV. Level IV are rated for AP.

Bodyarmorguy
07-22-2012, 05:00
So if a kevlar-garbed BG comes after you, and you put a high-powered 9mm round into his chest, he will not likely be able to respond with any degree of proficiency. Very likely, the BG will be doubling over in crippling pain and could even go into shock. Only someone high on a drug like PCP would be able to just shrug it off.

Somebody should have told this to Platt and Matix, the two bank robbers that the FBI had a shoot out with in Miami. One of them took a 9mm round into the thoracic cavity very early in the fight. ME deemed it a non-survivable wound, yet he continued to fight and kill FBI agents for somewhere around 3 minutes. No drugs in their system, just determined. One of the FBI Agents was shot early on with a 5.56 round which shattered his forearm....he kept fighting. Another agent who had been shot continued to fight and scored the fight ending shots....determination.

You are correct, body armor does not make you superman, but by the same token getting shot with or without armor also doesn't necessarily take you out of the fight immediately.

Every shoot a deer with a 30-30 or 30-.06? Ever see it run upwards of a mile afterward? They do. Do you know why? They have never been to the movies or watched TV and learned that you are supposed to fall down and die when shot.

H&K 4 LIFE
07-22-2012, 06:19
I think that your individual determination, your resolve in using your gun to defend yourself and others is far more crucial to winning the fight than the pistol you are carrying or how much body armor an assailant might be wearing. Within that circumstance, you play the hand your dealt and do everything within your power to stop the threat and to survive.

Bear in mind that the psycho in this particular instance did not want to die. For him, it was not a suicide mission. He happily surrendered to police the first opportunity he was given. I think the spineless coward would have caved the minute lead started flying in his direction, let alone being struck by multiple rounds of 9mm.

What I am saying is if you are prepared and able, make the conscious decision to fight. It all comes back to having this proper mindset first, everything else is secondary.

TheExplorer
07-22-2012, 06:21
Broken pelvis will take perp of their feet. Very painful injury that will make it less likely for continued return fire. Bigger target than a head shot.

Makes sense to me.

Lior
07-22-2012, 06:32
There is no "usually" in scenarios like this. How fast is the perp moving his head while being weighed down with armor and taking aim with long guns? A static human head is a nice big target for IPSC pistol shooters, but it's impossible to tell what most people would do, as there are too many circs and variables.

Bren
07-22-2012, 07:21
Well the shooting in Colorado got me thinking about this I must admit.

I have seen the videos where the guy shoots himself point blank with a .44 Magnum pistol to demo his vest and nothing happens to him.

You left out "with a phone book under it" - that's Richard Davis who started Second Chance Body Armor.

If he did the same demo without the phone book, there's a chance he'd die and a certainty he would go around demoing it again.


Do people hit with body armor on even feel it? I carry a Glock 19, 9mm loaded with +P Gold Dots. This incident got me thinking about something bigger I must admit.


Read this article: http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&article_id=1571&issue_id=82008

The article says, "Officers who are shot wearing personal body armor are significantly protected from major injury. However, both perforation of the vest with penetrating trauma and backface blunt trauma injuries do occur about 10–15 percent of the time." They say the reaction range from not knowing they were shot until 3 days later to being knocked down and need medical treatment for the blunt trauma.

magiaaron
07-22-2012, 07:34
100% correct on all counts



There are level III plates that are very light, though a little thick, made of 100% poly materials. Generally they will not defeat AP rounds but are multi-hit rated against .308 and 5.56.

There are also plates that are known as IC (In-Conjunction) plates. Typically I hybrid of ceramics, glass, poly, etc. that by itself may be level III but when worn in conjunction with IIIA soft ballistics becomes a 1 or may 2-3 hit IV. Level IV are rated for AP.

To be NIJ certified III or IV, you have to be multi-hit within certain criteria (distance apart, distance from edge of plate, etc).

-magiaaron

CA Escapee
07-22-2012, 07:39
That's not necessarily true. If you remember the North Hollywood shootout, the two guys involved in that took many a round in their armor. The lack of penetrative power in that shootout is part of the reason so many departments moved to having AR15s in the patrol cars. In fact, even shotgun rounds were not enough to cause a "bad enough day" to stop the fight. In fact, that shootout lasted nearly 45 minutes despite the insane number of officers involved. Ballistic armor really did a lot.

-magiaaron

Years ago I was a civilian volunteer with the L.A. County Sheriff's Department at the time of the NoHo shootout. LASD had access to all of the raw footage of the shootout taken by news crews. This was the footage that never made it to TV. I got to see some of that footage, too. LAPD radio audio was added to some of the footage.

After watching as much of the raw video as they could get their hands on, the deputy's in the LASD Weapons Training Company came to some conclusions.

1. It was obvious to the deputy's the BG's were wearing body armor. It was late in one of the video's when an LAPD officer got on the radio and said something like, "They're wearing body armor, take head shots!" (That statement never made it to the TV news.)

2. The deputy's noticed that when the BG's were being fired upon they did retreat, unfortunately LAPD only had 9mm pistols at the time; the AR's arrived later. The deputy's thought that a few DX shooters could lay down enough well placed cover fire to allow others to shoot at legs, ankles, and other soft spots. The deputy's reasoned that Body armor is designed to protect the COM, so don't aim for the COM.

3. At that time (1997?) a commercial vest would stop a round, but still deliver enough blunt force to break bones, or thump internal organs. Bullets do make it through the layers of Kevlar, but there are enough layers to bleed off the energy of one bullet and stop it. Enough DX shooters constantly aiming at the same spot would probably take the fight out of the BG and make him wish he was somewhere else.

One more conclusion LASD came to was despite the fact the BG's were firing in full auto, none of the victims died that day. If the BG's had slowed down and taken more deliberate aimed shots in semi-auto mode there would have been a higher body count.

Bill

ChiefWPD
07-22-2012, 07:57
Guys, I normally don't get involved in these discussions as they tend to degenerate into name calling. None the less, I'm going to add my thoughts on this one. A bit of background. I served as a sgt and lt in the NYPD's Firearms & Tactics Unit. One of my jobs was to head up Research and Testing. This included bullet resistant vests.

No handgun a person would normally carry would have had any effect (short of a lucky shot somehow making its way into the central nervous system) on the shooter as he was described by Chief Dan Oatess (former NYPD and a buddy of mine).

As far as what happens when a person, wearing bullet resistant material (level II and greater) is hit in the armor with a handgun is, nothing. A concealable handgun will have such limted blunt force trauma that the shooter would likely not even be aware they were hit.

The demonstrations done by the former owner of Second Chance body armor had him standing on one leg, hitting himself in the chest with a jackted .44 magnum round. He put a few magazines (not phone book) between the armor and his chest as he didn't want to get black and blue from the pounding, as he did this demonstrations with some frequency.

As to the logic of carrying armor piercing ammo in you carry handgun; 1-it would not penetrate a level II or greater vest, and 2-It is not a particularly effective round for personal protection.

Best to all,

:wavey:

magiaaron
07-22-2012, 07:58
Years ago I was a civilian volunteer with the L.A. County Sheriff's Department at the time of the NoHo shootout. LASD had access to all of the raw footage of the shootout taken by news crews. This was the footage that never made it to TV. I got to see some of that footage, too. LAPD radio audio was added to some of the footage.

After watching as much of the raw video as they could get their hands on, the deputy's in the LASD Weapons Training Company came to some conclusions.

1. It was obvious to the deputy's the BG's were wearing body armor. It was late in one of the video's when an LAPD officer got on the radio and said something like, "They're wearing body armor, take head shots!" (That statement never made it to the TV news.)

2. The deputy's noticed that when the BG's were being fired upon they did retreat, unfortunately LAPD only had 9mm pistols at the time; the AR's arrived later. The deputy's thought that a few DX shooters could lay down enough well placed cover fire to allow others to shoot at legs, ankles, and other soft spots. The deputy's reasoned that Body armor is designed to protect the COM, so don't aim for the COM.

3. At that time (1997?) a commercial vest would stop a round, but still deliver enough blunt force to break bones, or thump internal organs. Bullets do make it through the layers of Kevlar, but there are enough layers to bleed off the energy of one bullet and stop it. Enough DX shooters constantly aiming at the same spot would probably take the fight out of the BG and make him wish he was somewhere else.

One more conclusion LASD came to was despite the fact the BG's were firing in full auto, none of the victims died that day. If the BG's had slowed down and taken more deliberate aimed shots in semi-auto mode there would have been a higher body count.

Bill

Thank you for the insight. It is interesting and appreciated. Thank you for your service with the department.

-magiaaron

Lior
07-22-2012, 08:19
Guys, learn how to fell USPSA steel plates quickly with your EDC, including off Texas Stars, from a distance of at least 8 yards.

Glockdude1
07-22-2012, 08:36
It is a popular myth that wearing body armor makes you invulnerable to the damage of being struck by a bullet. Even if the bullet is stopped by the vest, there is still the blunt force trauma to contend with, and that does not just magically disappear.

It is very possible that important blood vessels could rupture, ribs could be broken, and even the processes of the internal organs can be disrupted by blunt force trauma. Despite the fact that many vests have trauma plates, and more layers of bullet resistant fabric than necessary in order to lessen the trauma, life-threatening injury is still a serious possibility. Bottom line, BFT can kill.

Even if one is wearing the best level IIIA vest money can buy, getting hit by a .357, 10mm, or .44 mag will most certainly take a man out of the fight. Even getting hit by the lowly .380 will result in having a very bad day.

So if a kevlar-garbed BG comes after you, and you put a high-powered 9mm round into his chest, he will not likely be able to respond with any degree of proficiency. Very likely, the BG will be doubling over in crippling pain and could even go into shock. Only someone high on a drug like PCP would be able to just shrug it off.

:agree:

There is also the arms, legs and head of the attacker in Kevlar. They catch a bullet in those areas, they will not be thinking about attacking you any more.

CA Escapee
07-22-2012, 09:46
I think that your individual determination, your resolve in using your gun to defend yourself and others is far more crucial to winning the fight than the pistol you are carrying or how much body armor an assailant might be wearing. Within that circumstance, you play the hand your dealt and do everything within your power to stop the threat and to survive.

Bear in mind that the psycho in this particular instance did not want to die. For him, it was not a suicide mission. He happily surrendered to police the first opportunity he was given. I think the spineless coward would have caved the minute lead started flying in his direction, let alone being struck by multiple rounds of 9mm.

What I am saying is if you are prepared and able, make the conscious decision to fight. It all comes back to having this proper mindset first, everything else is secondary.


Agreed, 100%.

That's why I go to IDPA or USPSA matches when I can. I don't carry a race gun, or wear the latest flashiest shirt with dozens of sponsors logos on it. I wear and use the same stuff I do when out on the street. Or, to borrow a saying from drag racing, "Run what you brung." I don't win matches against the big guys, but practice the mechanics of shooting and reloading under different conditions-left handed and right handed, and try to keep it in the A zones or score zeros.

Bill

WFO2
07-22-2012, 09:51
Practice failure to stop drills ..........

plasticslap
07-22-2012, 10:36
It won't. Most armor packages easily defeat the commercially available 5.7x28 rounds.


Aww dang it! Guess I gotta try to sell this thing then. And I thought these rappers/gangsters were onto something since this was what they're all buying now. :tongueout:

ChiefWPD
07-22-2012, 12:14
:agree:

There is also the arms, legs and head of the attacker in Kevlar. They catch a bullet in those areas, they will not be thinking about attacking you any more.

Guys, if a bad guy is wearing armor, and is struck in the armor, they will not be deterred. Indeed, if struck by a handgun round during a combat confrontation, while wearing bullet resistant armor the shooter will likely not even be aware they were struck.

Iím simply reporting what Iíve both observed in the field and from speaking to officers who were struck while wearing armor during a gunfight.

Body armor is very, very effective in protecting a person against light arms fire (read, handguns).

In this immediate situation, thinking that you could take out such an adversary, in an atmosphere filled with lacromating agent, while being fired upon with a high-capacity long gun, is just unrealistic.

TBO
07-22-2012, 12:55
http://www.jrbriggs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/movie-theater.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/domdunc/1836881720_6b723fe3df.jpg

1). Paralysis through analysis
2). Consider the actual physical environment



A dark movie theater, seats filled from a premier release. Eyes adjusted to watching the lit movie screen.
Eyes and focus on the movie screen.
Loud noises from... the movie? from ....what?!!!
Choking, gagging, eyes burning, eyes closing involuntarily, burning tight chest...
Screams, mass movement of people in all directions at once (in front of you, behind you, to both sides)...


If you had a gun on you, the conditions you'd face are overwhelming, even if somehow you'd be able to identify where and what the threat was.
Depending on where you are sitting, you may be a shooting victim at the onset, or you may have so much between you and the gunman shooting would certainly endanger multiple moving people.

Body armor engagement debates are on the lowest of issues that can be looked at for lessons.
Not saying there's nothing that can be gained/gleaned from a conversation in this area, just that on the hierarchy chart it's buried further down.

Respectfully,

TBO

jmho

ChiefWPD
07-22-2012, 15:31
http://www.jrbriggs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/movie-theater.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/domdunc/1836881720_6b723fe3df.jpg

1). Paralysis through analysis
2). Consider the actual physical environment



A dark movie theater, seats filled from a premier release. Eyes adjusted to watching the lit movie screen.
Eyes and focus on the movie screen.
Loud noises from... the movie? from ....what?!!!
Choking, gagging, eyes burning, eyes closing involuntarily, burning tight chest...
Screams, mass movement of people in all directions at once (in front of you, behind you, to both sides)...


If you had a gun on you, the conditions you'd face are overwhelming, even if somehow you'd be able to identify where and what the threat was.
Depending on where you are sitting, you may be a shooting victim at the onset, or you may have so much between you and the gunman shooting would certainly endanger multiple moving people.

Body armor engagement debates are on the lowest of issues that can be looked at for lessons.
Not saying there's nothing that can be gained/gleaned from a conversation in this area, just that on the hierarchy chart it's buried further down.

Respectfully,

TBO

jmho


+1 What he said.

FFR Spyder GT
07-22-2012, 23:16
. I've personally taken a 147 grain 9mm round from a Glock 19 to a Level IIIA vest from about 5' away and it felt like a stiff punch to the chest, but I wasn't on the floor or crying in pain either.



+1

Everybody is forgetting about 7th grade science....... For every action there's a equal and opposite reaction.

Meaning that a 147gr 9mm slug has the same amount of impact on a target as it does against the hand that is holding the gun minus the weight of the gun.

Of course the farther away the target is the less impact the slug will have due to a loss in velocity due to wind resistance and gravity.

That is way a heavier gun with the same load will have less recoil and a lighter gun.

An other words a 200lb man wearing a vest can absorb a 12ga BS blast and it will not "blow him off is feet" like the show in Hollywood.

steveksux
07-23-2012, 02:27
To be NIJ certified III or IV, you have to be multi-hit within certain criteria (distance apart, distance from edge of plate, etc).

-magiaaronThe vest has to be against something to function correctly, right? Has to fit snug? A gap between the vest and your body hampers the effectiveness doesn't it?

If so, do they do the tests with ballistic gelatin behind the vest?

Just saying, that would match my body composition quite closely, makes for a good test.... :whistling:

Randy

ChiefWPD
07-23-2012, 07:15
Back face signature (pushing in of the vest) is (was?) measured using a specific type of clay at a specific temperature. I forget the max amount of penetration into the clay allowed. Something like 1.3" or so (from memory).

I know at least one guy I worked with, when wearing a level I vest (it was a long time ago) who took a 9mm (9x19mm) square in his chest. Hurt like hell and he had a really bad bruise.

kirgi08
07-23-2012, 08:38
7.62x25.'08.

beatcop
07-23-2012, 08:43
Can you take a major league fastball to the chest?

Ok, I haven't done the F=MA calculations, but you get the idea.


Unless you hit CNS, you will not stop anyone but the guy who has a "psychological" injury...the guy (like all of us) who may be stunned and take a while to realize he's still alive and well.

The fantasy of becoming a sharpshooter in a theater full of screaming/moving/pushing people is probably just that....fantasy. It falls under **** luck...if you were within a few feet and could rail the guy while he wasn't looking you'd have a chance.

I've been to the LE active shooter training, but am not sure what I'd do if I was sitting there like everyone else w/kids, wife, etc. If you are thinking of going toe to toe w/ a bad guy with long guns & armor in that environment, with a small CC handgun, than you are my hero.

beatcop
07-23-2012, 08:48
Guys, learn how to fell USPSA steel plates quickly with your EDC, including off Texas Stars, from a distance of at least 8 yards.

Steel plates don't move.

I know....any practice is better than no practice.

magiaaron
07-23-2012, 09:11
If so, do they do the tests with ballistic gelatin behind the vest?

Just saying, that would match my body composition quite closely, makes for a good test.... :whistling:

Randy

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Back face signature (pushing in of the vest) is (was?) measured using a specific type of clay at a specific temperature. I forget the max amount of penetration into the clay allowed. Something like 1.3" or so (from memory).

I know at least one guy I worked with, when wearing a level I vest (it was a long time ago) who took a 9mm (9x19mm) square in his chest. Hurt like hell and he had a really bad bruise.

Here's the NIJ standards document.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf

Section 7.7 covers the backing.

-magiaaron

hamster
07-23-2012, 09:26
Body armor engagement debates are on the lowest of issues that can be looked at for lessons.
Not saying there's nothing that can be gained/gleaned from a conversation in this area, just that on the hierarchy chart it's buried further down.

Respectfully,

TBO

jmho
[/COLOR]

Exactly TBO... you hit the nail on the head. Quite frankly, the odds of being able to safely take a shot in a situation like this are slim to none. Let alone determine if the suspect is wearing body armor. My #1 priority would be getting my wife and myself to safety. My kids would already be home safe since it was after midnight.

IMO the most realistic use of CCW in this situation would be if the perp were standing only a few feet from me and had me pinned down. Otherwise, there is just no realistic way to defend against this scenario.

H&K 4 LIFE
07-23-2012, 12:24
While I respect the insightful thoughts and opinions of others...

I am not saying I would be able to defeat him, or even that I would survive any attempt to do so, I am saying I would make the conscious decision to fight. I would rather die on my feet in complete opposition to a madman then to be shot in the back fleeing from him. Of course, this is a personal and individual choice.

As the defender in a dynamic critical incident, you always start at a disadvantage. Them's the breaks. The aggressor always has the element of surprise as well as the advantage of forethought, planning and preparation for his assault. His choice of scenario and him being armed with a long arm, chemical irritant, and body armor only stacked the deck further in his favor. But you do not have the privilege of fighting only if you are guaranteed to win, the fact is you never are, you fight because that is what is necessary to attempt to survive and to preserve innocent life.

This particular bottom feeding nut job was also a loathsome spineless coward. He was not aiming to commit suicide during the mayhem he created and only wished to inflict death and pain on others. He surrendered to the first people he came into contact with who were capable of ending his miserable life (the police). While there is no evidence to suggest he would have given up upon first contact with active armed resistance, there is nothing present that refutes this theory either. Psychologically speaking he was not prepared to die.

When true evil comes knocking at my gate, no matter how insurmountable the odds might prove to be... I ride out a meet them.

This is not to sound tough, macho or anything "hero like", just that these are my personal feelings on the matter. We all make our own decisions.

beatcop
07-23-2012, 12:34
I am not saying I would be able to defeat him, or even that I would survive any attempt to do so, I am saying I would make the conscious decision to fight.

"Choice" is a tough one when faced with death. That option may not be on the table without training & experience...and even then people fold.

I have seen a few things and would probably not call anyone out for heading for the door. Reminds me of WW1, when they would blow a whistle and troops would run towards continuous machine gun fire, knowing it was certain death. I'm pretty sure society no longer has the guts for that.

H&K 4 LIFE
07-23-2012, 12:56
...I'm pretty sure society no longer has the guts for that...

I agree with you. I'm also certain the majority of society in this day and age no longer has the "guts" to do what is necessary.

When Charles Whitman climbed that tower back in 1966 and started shooting people, private individuals with personally owned firearms shot back.

beatcop
07-23-2012, 13:06
Inflicting pain or killing is easier as the distance increases, just as "danger" seems to lessen.

I've been more scared during near collisions in a vehicle than having the Patriot battery set off the scud alarm.

Most people who know what the roar of a centerfire rifle being fired indoors are going to be on their knees or lower. I'm guessing I'd hunker down if I wasn't being trampled and wait for a shot if I had a full size pistol....but who the hell knows. I've seen guys with experience get panic attacks, run and puke.

OctoberRust
07-23-2012, 14:15
http://www.jrbriggs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/movie-theater.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/domdunc/1836881720_6b723fe3df.jpg

1). Paralysis through analysis
2). Consider the actual physical environment



A dark movie theater, seats filled from a premier release. Eyes adjusted to watching the lit movie screen.
Eyes and focus on the movie screen.
Loud noises from... the movie? from ....what?!!!
Choking, gagging, eyes burning, eyes closing involuntarily, burning tight chest...
Screams, mass movement of people in all directions at once (in front of you, behind you, to both sides)...


If you had a gun on you, the conditions you'd face are overwhelming, even if somehow you'd be able to identify where and what the threat was.
Depending on where you are sitting, you may be a shooting victim at the onset, or you may have so much between you and the gunman shooting would certainly endanger multiple moving people.

Body armor engagement debates are on the lowest of issues that can be looked at for lessons.
Not saying there's nothing that can be gained/gleaned from a conversation in this area, just that on the hierarchy chart it's buried further down.

Respectfully,

TBO

jmho


I rarely agree with you TBO, but this post is exactly what I've been trying to tell the tough guys in GNG for the past few days now.

soflasmg
07-23-2012, 14:20
Sweep the leg.

Southswede
07-23-2012, 15:43
While I respect the insightful thoughts and opinions of others...

I am not saying I would be able to defeat him, or even that I would survive any attempt to do so, I am saying I would make the conscious decision to fight. I would rather die on my feet in complete opposition to a madman then to be shot in the back fleeing from him. Of course, this is a personal and individual choice.

As the defender in a dynamic critical incident, you always start at a disadvantage. Them's the breaks. The aggressor always has the element of surprise as well as the advantage of forethought, planning and preparation for his assault. His choice of scenario and him being armed with a long arm, chemical irritant, and body armor only stacked the deck further in his favor. But you do not have the privilege of fighting only if you are guaranteed to win, the fact is you never are, you fight because that is what is necessary to attempt to survive and to preserve innocent life.

This particular bottom feeding nut job was also a loathsome spineless coward. He was not aiming to commit suicide during the mayhem he created and only wished to inflict death and pain on others. He surrendered to the first people he came into contact with who were capable of ending his miserable life (the police). While there is no evidence to suggest he would have given up upon first contact with active armed resistance, there is nothing present that refutes this theory either. Psychologically speaking he was not prepared to die.

When true evil comes knocking at my gate, no matter how insurmountable the odds might prove to be... I ride out a meet them.

This is not to sound tough, macho or anything "hero like", just that these are my personal feelings on the matter. We all make our own decisions.


I agree with you. I would rather die trying to fight, than die lying on top of my girlfriend.

:cheers:

JW1178
07-23-2012, 15:53
Haven't read everyone's responses but even when wearing body armor, it's going to have quite an effect when the BG gets hit.

Chris Chris
07-23-2012, 16:37
Obvious body armor? Shoot knees, feet, ankles. Take away their mobility. Drop them to the ground and reassess your aiming point. Legs also hold the femoral artery... bad news for the BG if that gets hit.

If lower extremities aren't available, take forearms, hand, elbows, or any other body part they are using to hold and aim their gun. If they can't control the gun they can't deliver accurate fire.

The objective is to stop the BG from shooting people. If you can remove control of his hands & arms, or take his legs, knees, ankles, and send him to the ground... you are ahead of the curve.

Body armor can be intimidating.... but it doesn't cover all the critical parts. If the elbows or knees are trashed... the shooter is not going to function as they intended.

Don't waste time hammering armor plates. Shoot where there is no armor.

1smoothredneck
07-23-2012, 16:46
Shoot him in the gas mask.

Regards,
Happyguy :)
this^

chemcmndr
07-23-2012, 17:33
+1

Everybody is forgetting about 7th grade science....... For every action there's a equal and opposite reaction.

Meaning that a 147gr 9mm slug has the same amount of impact on a target as it does against the hand that is holding the gun minus the weight of the gun.

Of course the farther away the target is the less impact the slug will have due to a loss in velocity due to wind resistance and gravity.

That is way a heavier gun with the same load will have less recoil and a lighter gun.

An other words a 200lb man wearing a vest can absorb a 12ga BS blast and it will not "blow him off is feet" like the show in Hollywood.

No, I was trying to use my example as a point, I believe the same one you are making. I am well aware of Newton's 3rd law and firearms.

People have posted that shots to kevlar will incapacitate him. Depending on the vest's level of protection (higher level, less kevlar = more felt energy), the firearm shooting the vest (heavier/ faster bullet = more energy), and the vest wearer's mindset, you may incapacitate him. However, in many practical situations it might not. (When I say practical, I'm thinking something similar to this situation in Colorado: Bad guy wearing, let's say, a Level IIIA vest, and a CCW shooter with nothing much larger than a 45 ACP, and I'll bet the shooter had adrenaline going).

If I was able to take a 147 grain 9mm from 5' with a Level IIIA vest, without any sort of adrenaline rush; it's not hard to think that a bad guy wearing the same vest wouldn't even notice it if a CCW holder tried to shoot him with the largest CCW gun I can see someone carrying, in this case, a .45 ACP

In short; while a ballistic vest will not make you superman, and you can still get injured while wearing one, they are very effective at what they were designed for, and should I ever come into a situation where I have to defend myself, and I do not see results with the first pair, I will start aiming for the CNS.

captdreifus
07-24-2012, 00:46
I agree with you. I would rather die trying to fight, than die lying on top of my girlfriend.

:cheers:

What if there was no time for you to fight, but time to protect your loved one?

TBO
07-24-2012, 08:56
:agree:

Sent from my mind using Tapatalk 2

dhoomonyou
07-24-2012, 13:32
Keep double tapping with whatever u have, until he drops or u do.
When ur gun is empty, run or club the dude with it.

Southswede
07-24-2012, 14:42
What if there was no time for you to fight, but time to protect your loved one?

What if there is?

captdreifus
07-24-2012, 14:44
What if there is?

There wasn't time for some, in this case.

You had stated that you would rather fight, which I'm sure everyone would opt to do. Given the circumstances, what would you have done had there been no time to fight?

robhic
07-24-2012, 17:08
This is a tough one for a number of reasons. First, it was dark and I'd bet no one -- NO ONE -- was expecting this nor knew if the guy was wearing armor. Tough to make the call on the spur of the moment with such little information.

Second, nobody can really know how they will react unless they have experienced the real situation themself. I can say what I'd like to do, but when push came to shove, who really knows how one will react? Hopefully you'd be rational enough to react properly.

"Properly" being what is best and safest for you and / or the innocents around you.

lostone1413
07-24-2012, 17:51
Best place anytime if if can make a head shot

Merkavaboy
07-24-2012, 18:51
ANY handgun round that is capable of penetrating tactical body armor is going to easily and dangerously OVERPENETRATE any human being and be able to maim and/or kill one or more innocent bystanders. Additionally, I don't know of any state that allows its citizens to use AP handgun ammo (let alone any LEA) for SD. And AP ammo is the only type of ammo that's going to be able to take down someone completely encased in armor.

Merkavaboy
07-24-2012, 19:01
With regards to the North Hollywood shootout, many of those 9mm rounds shot by LE came from a significant distance, losing their velocity in the process. I agree with the others regarding blunt force trauma. It's definitely going to play a role, especially at close distances. My agency just switched to the Gen 4 Glock 21 (.45). If that's not bringing them down, it's slowing them down enough for me to get to my M4 or 870 in the car.

Even if every LAPD officer had a .45 during the N.Hollywood bank shootout, a larger bullet moving even slower would not have slowed down the shooters. Plus, those officers would have run out of pistol ammo twice as fast.

Southswede
07-24-2012, 21:11
There wasn't time for some, in this case.

You had stated that you would rather fight, which I'm sure everyone would opt to do. Given the circumstances, what would you have done had there been no time to fight?

Simple: if there were "no time to fight" I would already be dead. If I were not dead, there would be time to fight.

FireForged
07-25-2012, 06:26
There are just as many places on the net saything that the colorado shooter did NOT have body armor but a (tact mag-vest) as there are saying that he was head-to-toe body armor. This is why I do not subcribe to the "it futile- nothing can be done logic". Sometimes you willn win and fight and sometime you will lose a fight... you just cant know the outcome until you get at it for a while. Speaking toward this terrible event in Colorado, I think one common-joe with a ccw could have stopped the madness.

Hedo1
07-25-2012, 06:50
It appears he was wearing a load bearing vest and not body armor. Apparently they have the reciept from an online vendor. It's not the first time the media got something wrong with regards to guns.

Darkangel1846
07-25-2012, 07:37
Well the shooting in Colorado got me thinking about this I must admit.

I have seen the videos where the guy shoots himself point blank with a .44 Magnum pistol to demo his vest and nothing happens to him.

Do people hit with body armor on even feel it? I carry a Glock 19, 9mm loaded with +P Gold Dots. This incident got me thinking about something bigger I must admit.

I wonder if a hot 10mm or a hot .38 Super would effect someone in armor at close range. Some reports say the shooter was wearing a bullet proof helmet. So would a hot 10mm or .38 Super in the head have dropped him? All that energy has to go somewhere right?

I'm not an expert in body armor so forgive my ignorance. I'm just curious as to what one can do besides a Mozambique drill, which in a dark, smoke filled theater with screaming innocent people running for their lives is not really a viable option.

Thanks in advance.

Remember Body armour only covers heart and most of lungs.....open areas are head and neck, shoulders, arms, underarms, hands, lower abdomen, hips, groin, legs and feet. Anyone of those hits will slow a shooter down if not stop him/her. Don't get caught in the he's invinciable if he has body armour concept.

Glockdude1
07-25-2012, 07:58
You won't know if it is real armor until you start shooting him(or her).

:cool:

happyguy
07-25-2012, 08:52
There was an off-duty New York police officer a few years ago who was at a bar with a few other cop friends when some punk came in to rob the place. I don't know all the fine print but he was the only cop who was armed and he had something like a Raven .25 or something. The VCA was armed with a Glock 23 if I remember correctly.

This particular police officer determined that things were about to go South and knowing that his pistol was terribly inaccurate, he charged the VCA so he could get a close in shot. He took 4 or 5 rounds of .40 to the chest but he got close enough to put a round in the punks brain and end the fight.

He ended up staggering outside and collapsing in the sidewalk. He lived and became that years Police Officer of the Year.

So you have two choices and it doesn't matter which way the odds are stacked. Tuck your tail between your legs and hope for the best or fight back. Fortunately there are still men of action out there.

As John Farnam is fond of saying, "When it's least expected, you're elected."

Carry on.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

TBO
07-25-2012, 12:19
Remember Body armour only covers heart and most of lungs.....open areas are head and neck, shoulders, arms, underarms, hands, lower abdomen, hips, groin, legs and feet. Anyone of those hits will slow a shooter down if not stop him/her. Don't get caught in the he's invinciable if he has body armour concept.

He had full body armor, covering the areas you speak of.

happyguy
07-25-2012, 12:27
He had full body armor, covering the areas you speak of.

Fox News reported the other day that he was wearing a "tactical vest" made of nylon mesh.

Do you have information to the contrary?

In this case, Winter interviewed Chad Weinman, CEO of TacticalGear.com, who admitted the shooter’s vest came from their mail order company.

Winter used the term “urban assault vest.” Looking that up at TacticalGear.com displays this result. It’s made of “heavy-duty nylon” and has no Kevlar or other bullet-resistant materials. Granted, if you load it up with magazines you may derive some protection at the expense of your ammunition, but it’s not “body armor.”

Regards,
Happyguy :)

pipedreams
07-25-2012, 12:45
Fox News reported the other day that he was wearing a "tactical vest" made of nylon mesh.

Do you have information to the contrary?
Regards,
Happyguy :)
He had on a tactical vest with lots of pockets according to the place he bought it from. The helmet was something like a skateboard helmet rather than what was reported.
http://tacticalgear.com/news/colorado-shooting/

Glockdude1
07-25-2012, 13:45
He was not wearing any "armor" of any kind.

Had a Concealed carry individual shot him, it would have become very clear how NOT bullet proof he was.

:cool:

Cdknox
07-25-2012, 14:43
No armor as mentioned above. Media jumping to conclusions because he "looked like he was."

beatcop
07-25-2012, 15:27
Obvious body armor? Shoot knees, feet, ankles. Take away their mobility. Drop them to the ground and reassess your aiming point. Legs also hold the femoral artery... bad news for the BG if that gets hit.

If lower extremities aren't available, take forearms, hand, elbows, or any other body part they are using to hold and aim their gun. If they can't control the gun they can't deliver

Not sure of exact scenario, but any theater with aisles and chairs will make any lower leg shots a nogo. When you shoot the track off a tank, it's now artillery...femoral artery is a long bleed process. Dead men can kill...he's bleeding out, but has minutes to continue his last acts. Try deer hunting.

Best practice...aim center mass and keep whacking away if you cannot summon the accuracy or have an appropriate pistol to make a head shot...your inaccuracies will make the arm shots you are hoping to land if the guy has a long gun...then "stitch" the button row to the head with multiple shots.

There will be no ankle, knee shots going on w/ a moving target/firing target when you are not behind solid cover with the luxury of time & accuracy.

This is why a 9mm hi-cap begins to appeal to me...hammer until you connect with an armpit, head, etc.

Guys are still debating the "trauma" of a vest hit....it is pain compliance only. The injury will not stop anyone...blunt force trauma from a 9mm is not going to push the guy's sternum to his backbone and crush his heart...lol. If you can take a fastball to the body, you will continue. Need penetration.

Chris Chris
07-25-2012, 15:41
Hands are required to shoot the gun. Wrists, forearms, elbows are required to make the hands work properly. Put a bullet through those and the shooter's ability changes for the worse. If knees, ankles, feet, thigh, or any other unamored targets are available... take those. If he's dropped to the ground, he's not as effective.

Body armor covers vital chest areas. Maybe some neck & groin protectors thrown in. Hammering those repeatedly might distract the shooter, but they won't stop him.

Obvious body armor? Shoot him where there isn't any body armor. There's lotsa spots that involve joints and appendages that the shooter needs to function. Stick a bullet through those and the shooter's function is greatly diminished.

The objective is to a STOP the shooter. You don't have to hammer COM hits to do that. Just stop him.

If I can see hands on the gun, I'll shoot those. Elbows, knees, forearms? Yup. Any bullet I can stick into an active shooter will diminish their ability. That's good.

beatcop
07-25-2012, 18:02
^

...ok, anything is better than a wall of backs trying to squeeze through a choke point...just shoot the fool with anything.

Misty02
07-25-2012, 23:08
This thread has been very educational, thank you!

I have a question. Are the representations made of this vest real? This gentleman has been shot, point blank, with a .40 caliber with just an almost unnoticeable flinch on his face. It doesnít disturb his posture at all and it appears he is able to speak just fine after. It also appears to be very light. I sure wouldnít put success on someone engaging, with a handgun, another covered with this stuff if the description is accurate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDRRJZ6rJBY&feature=player_embedded

http://www.jrbriggs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/movie-theater.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/domdunc/1836881720_6b723fe3df.jpg

1). Paralysis through analysis
2). Consider the actual physical environment




A dark movie theater, seats filled from a premier release. Eyes adjusted to watching the lit movie screen.
Eyes and focus on the movie screen.
Loud noises from... the movie? from ....what?!!!
Choking, gagging, eyes burning, eyes closing involuntarily, burning tight chest...
Screams, mass movement of people in all directions at once (in front of you, behind you, to both sides)...
If you had a gun on you, the conditions you'd face are overwhelming, even if somehow you'd be able to identify where and what the threat was.
Depending on where you are sitting, you may be a shooting victim at the onset, or you may have so much between you and the gunman shooting would certainly endanger multiple moving people.

Body armor engagement debates are on the lowest of issues that can be looked at for lessons.
Not saying there's nothing that can be gained/gleaned from a conversation in this area, just that on the hierarchy chart it's buried further down.

Respectfully,

TBO

jmho


Your post helps me to pose some questions/thoughts. Obviously, I want them stripped apart so I can learn from them and gain additional ideas and thoughts.

That theater is a close representation to the one we usually go to. We donít usually sit in the first set of rows, seats are at the same floor level, youíre too close to the screen and have to spend the entire time with neck bent to look up. Our preferred seating is the second row (in the center) of the next section. Weíll still select that section but will make sure at least one of us is in the aisle seat followed by the rest of the family, or occupy two rows. When we do go to the movie theater there are usually 9-10 of us, 4 of us armed. If it is not an action movie there would be less of us with only 2 being armed. My thoughts on seating arrangement doesnít mean weíll attempt to run out, it just means it facilitates exercising that option if it is believed to be the best one.

Shooting with people running all over the place would not be something I consider unless it is necessary to distract the shooter (at least temporarily) while others attempt to reach him and take him off his feet (tackle and restrain). Hopefully the shot (if one is possible) would be enough to stop him but with heavy armor that may not be likely.

As respect other members of the family, especially children. While I donít believe the seats provide cover, they will provide concealment (so long as the shooter doesnít know they are there). It seems to me the best option would be to lie down on the floor, which would yield the smallest target for a bullet (the personís side). Of course, this would be bad if the shooter decides to go row by row shooting at every body he sees laying on the ground that is not already bleeding.

Knowing the plan/intent of the shooter would be impossible, but it is not difficult to guess heíll be shooting where he sees the largest number of people. To me that means that getting up and running to the exit would make that group a more attractive target, not to mention the high possibility of not being able to maneuver through all those steps (in the dark), falling and being trampled by others. I would be interested in knowing how many of the injured (and maybe even the dead) received their injuries from the stampede and not from a bullet. The path to that exit looks more and more as a death path, and not just from the actions of the shooter.

My calculated guess (probably a deadly error) is that this particular shooter might not have been effective in hitting an intended and specific target. In this particular case (perhaps not on the next one) that may give someone that is close enough an opportunity to deliver more than one shot that hits. The problem is that if he doesnít even feel it, it will not yield the needed distraction.

He has to be taken off his feet to a position where he can be restrained by a few others. Which could be among the most effective way of accomplishing that?

Please tell me where Iím wrong and how can I improve the ideas going through my mind. I know it would be a very basic plan that would need to be adapted to the specifics of any other real scenarios. Iím looking for just that base to work with.

I will add, with something of this magnitude Iím not attempting think of a plan where I would walk out alive (although that would be preferable, of course). Iím trying to think of ways where the largest number of people in my family would live to tell the tale.
.

Misty02
07-25-2012, 23:15
What if there was no time for you to fight, but time to protect your loved one?

Then you do just that and try everything possible to accomplish that objective.

There is no way my 1+ year old granddaughter will stay in place in such a chaotic scene. Someone might need to lay on her to pin her down if escape is not possible. If the shooter doesnít leave the place with the masses as this one did other measures would have to be taken so she is not heard as well.

.

Misty02
07-25-2012, 23:22
Remember Body armour only covers heart and most of lungs.....open areas are head and neck, shoulders, arms, underarms, hands, lower abdomen, hips, groin, legs and feet. Anyone of those hits will slow a shooter down if not stop him/her. Don't get caught in the he's invinciable if he has body armour concept.

If this article is correct, he had:


He was wearing a black ballistic or bullet-resistant helmet, a ballistic tactical vest with pockets, ballistic leggings, throat and groin protectors, a gas mask and ballistic tactical gloves, Oates said.
.

Misty02
07-25-2012, 23:28
I guess this would be a case of the media quoting the Police Chief on something he never said? Not that it would surprise me, mind you.


Fox News reported the other day that he was wearing a "tactical vest" made of nylon mesh.

Do you have information to the contrary?



Regards,
Happyguy


He had on a tactical vest with lots of pockets according to the place he bought it from. The helmet was something like a skateboard helmet rather than what was reported.
http://tacticalgear.com/news/colorado-shooting/ (http://tacticalgear.com/news/colorado-shooting/)

dcc12
07-27-2012, 10:04
If this is really a concern for you, get proficient with hitting face size target at the range while running off of your X.

beatcop
07-27-2012, 14:49
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/473/2966001/DHS-funded-video-gives-tips-to-survive-a-shooter

Soft vid w/ some sheep instructions. Notice vid is 5.56 minutes...

beatcop
07-27-2012, 14:55
If this is really a concern for you, get proficient with hitting face size target at the range while running off of your X.

If you shoot a couple times a year, forget it...you're not making a head shot on a moving/shooting target unless you are at contact distance.

Hammer the body with a couple shots, track subsequent shots up the chest into head region if he doesn't drop. If the fool turns out to be wearing a "pouch" vest instead of armor, all the better.

deputy1199
08-03-2012, 13:56
The latest info as of this date is that the Colorado movie shooter was wearing black tactical clothing, and some sort of helmet and a gas mask - but no body armor. And a gas mask would not be adequate protection against bullets. So, head shots would have been effective to stop this rampage. And so would shots to center body mass if someone had been available to fire them. The fact that in this day and age nobody in that theater -- not a single off duty officer or lawful CCW holder -- was armed and in a position to take action against an active shooter amazes me. It just reinforces my decision to carry all the time, everywhere it is legal.

captdreifus
08-03-2012, 17:40
Then you do just that and try everything possible to accomplish that objective.

There is no way my 1+ year old granddaughter will stay in place in such a chaotic scene. Someone might need to lay on her to pin her down if escape is not possible. If the shooter doesnít leave the place with the masses as this one did other measures would have to be taken so she is not heard as well.

.

That was a rhetorical question. My friend died protecting his girlfriend. There was no time for him to fight it out.

Misty02
08-03-2012, 20:07
That was a rhetorical question. My friend died protecting his girlfriend. There was no time for him to fight it out.

I know he did and thankfully he accomplished his objective.

.

Misty02
08-03-2012, 20:09
The latest info as of this date is that the Colorado movie shooter was wearing black tactical clothing, and some sort of helmet and a gas mask - but no body armor. And a gas mask would not be adequate protection against bullets. So, head shots would have been effective to stop this rampage. And so would shots to center body mass if someone had been available to fire them. The fact that in this day and age nobody in that theater -- not a single off duty officer or lawful CCW holder -- was armed and in a position to take action against an active shooter amazes me. It just reinforces my decision to carry all the time, everywhere it is legal.

Which reliable source has disputed the original comment made by the Chief of Police where he originally stated the suspect was wearing body armor?

.

kirgi08
08-03-2012, 20:23
pm me.'08.