Pistols that make Ballistic Vests run and hide... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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zackwatt
07-22-2012, 19:19
Because of recent events I have a friend set on getting a FN Five Seven in case he has to protect himself from someone wearing a ballistic vest....

Personally I see no point in it, ballistic vests aren't magic. Most rounds are still going to make for a bad day. Not to mention, the problems with over penetration against an unarmored individual.

All that aside...it got me thinking about pistols that stand a good chance defeating certain types of body armor.

The only ones I know of are FN's Five Seven and the pistols that shoot 7.62x25 Tokarev...

cowboy1964
07-22-2012, 19:34
What are the odds that if one has to use their weapon to defend themselves that it will be against someone wearing body armor? 100,000 to 1? I'll continue to carry a more effective round than a 5.7.

TexasTerror
07-22-2012, 19:37
The shooting had me thinking of a AR pistol in a backpack. It's not as readily available as a concealed pistol but with the right ammo it would have been a good thing to have in that situation. I was thinking M855 but I don't know why all is out there and how they do against different body armor. Not to mention the velocity loss going from say a 16" to 7.5" barrel. I had watched a video of a guy shoot a 1/4" steel plate from maybe 80 yards with M855 and it left a nice size hole. Full penetration.

zackwatt
07-22-2012, 19:37
Myth. Civilian 5.7 ammo is not going to penetrate a good vest.

Left that bit out, the availability of specific ammo...or lack there of.

uzimon
07-22-2012, 19:38
ak pistol
ar pistol
:supergrin:

my762buzz
07-22-2012, 19:38
The only ones I know of are FN's Five Seven and the pistols that shoot 7.62x25 Tokarev...

Handguns of 7.62x39, 5.45x39, .454, .460, or .500 have the potential to defeat nonplated vests. The key is minimum velocity. IIRC around 1800 fps.

gunowner1
07-22-2012, 19:43
The unfortunate incident in Colorado has not made me rethink my carry procedures in any way,shape,or form.The chances of running into a BG wearing body armor are really slim. If he is wearing body armor he is already ahead of me and probably has me outgunned.

zackwatt
07-22-2012, 19:45
The unfortunate incident in Colorado has not made me rethink my carry procedures in any way,shape,or form.The chances of running into a BG wearing body armor are really slim. If he is wearing body armor he is already ahead of me and probably has me outgunned.

Couldn't agree more.

raven11
07-22-2012, 19:45
You could buy a cz52

g30sfjeepguy
07-22-2012, 19:52
I like the five seven the price just is out of my range. I've always wanted one though just think they are cool.

ChuteTheMall
07-22-2012, 19:53
http://i50.tinypic.com/9rpxxk.jpg

Get rid of that nickle-plated sissy pistol and get yourself a
Draco!:banana:

arclight610
07-22-2012, 20:12
The guy had plates in, so nothing short of a .300 Winmag would have worked.

M2 Carbine
07-22-2012, 20:15
Kel Tec PLR .223
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/KTPLRhand-1.jpg

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/KT223onsteelfront.jpg

CitizenOfDreams
07-22-2012, 20:21
Stupid question... Are there any handguns that fire 7.62x39 or .223? I mean, handgun-sized handguns, not just AK-47's with a sawed off stock.

Deaf Smith
07-22-2012, 20:24
Buffalo Bore makes a 125 gr .357 Magnum load that gets 1591 fps from S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel.

That might do if it's a FMJ load and 6 inch barrel.

Deaf

jakebrake
07-22-2012, 20:25
500 smith and wesson.?

480 ruger

475 wildey

454 casull

Berto
07-22-2012, 20:28
You might as well plan on a piano falling on your head, too.

Decguns
07-22-2012, 20:30
The 5.7 is useless against body armor unless you have some AP ammo. Those civilian 5.7 loads are about as effective as a .17 Rimfire. The problem with pistols? No civilian legal AP ammo.

The only reason you'd need AP pistol ammo to defeat a body armored bad guys is because the average shooter is a horrible marksmen, even under the best conditions. Honestly, 95% of pistol shooters couldn't make a head shot at 21 feet if their life depended on it.

Powder
07-22-2012, 20:33
Even if you unload a mag into his chest (with body armor), I would think the bullet impacts would throw him off enough for someone to jump him at that point.

I don't think you can just shake off 10 or 15 rounds in the chest so easily.

volsbear
07-22-2012, 20:59
Even if you unload a mag into his chest (with body armor), I would think the bullet impacts would throw him off enough for someone to jump him at that point.

I don't think you can just shake off 10 or 15 rounds in the chest so easily.

Oh I don't know. Try watching the LA bank robbery videos.


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WoodenPlank
07-22-2012, 21:09
The guy had plates in, so nothing short of a .300 Winmag would have worked.

Where did you get that info? I have yet to see anything indicating WHAT type of body armor he had on.

Stupid question... Are there any handguns that fire 7.62x39 or .223? I mean, handgun-sized handguns, not just AK-47's with a sawed off stock.

Nothing truly handgun-sized, no.

Oh I don't know. Try watching the LA bank robbery videos.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

The two shooters in the North Hollywood incident were wearing vests, home made additional pieces of armor, but only one had in a trauma plate.

arclight610
07-22-2012, 21:19
Where did you get that info? I have yet to see anything indicating WHAT type of body armor he had on.



Nothing truly handgun-sized, no.



The two shooters in the North Hollywood incident were wearing vests, home made additional pieces of armor, but only one had in a trauma plate.

My bad, I rescind my last statement. He wore tactical style body armor that costed between $2000-3000, but it did not specify whether it was just soft or hard. In that case, any high velocity pistola will do.

WoodenPlank
07-22-2012, 21:21
My bad, I rescind my last statement. He wore tactical style body armor that costed between $2000-3000, but it did not specify whether it was just soft or hard. In that case, any high velocity pistola will do.

If you pay $2,000-3,000 for soft armor, you are really doing something wrong.

While witnesses at the scene report he was in "body armor", I have yet to see any actual confirmation that it was indeed armor, and not simply something that LOOKED like armor. A company did come forward to say he had ordered a Blackhawk vest (no armor) and magazine pouches from them a few weeks prior to the shooting. Seems like it's at least possible the shooter actually had no functional torso armor on, just a carrier and magazine pouches.

nursetim
07-22-2012, 21:38
This was years ago mind you, but there was a Durham NC officer shot with a .22 through his vest if I am not mistaken.

A fella at a gun show tried to sell me a knife but mentioning how it would penetrate a bullet resistant vest like a hot knife through butter. I told him that was a repugnant sales pitch. Never got the knife.

glock2740
07-22-2012, 22:14
BP jackets aren't magical. Get shot with one on and it isn't pleasant. At the range that you will be in a shooting scenario, hitting a BG wearing a BP vest and he'll know it. That's enough to slow him down enough for some head shots.

Washingtonrebel
07-22-2012, 22:26
all that aside...it got me thinking about pistols that stand a good chance defeating certain types of body armor.

The only ones i know of are fn's five seven and the pistols that shoot 7.62x25 tokarev...

460 s&w

427
07-22-2012, 22:42
Norinco steel core 7.62x25 will penetrate Level IIIA body armor.

AK_Stick
07-23-2012, 01:06
Even if you unload a mag into his chest (with body armor), I would think the bullet impacts would throw him off enough for someone to jump him at that point.

I don't think you can just shake off 10 or 15 rounds in the chest so easily.



Seeing as how rifle rounds, don't always knock the guy wearing armor down, I don't think that a pistol round to the vest is going to suddenly take the fight out of a guy.


I would also say that if your plan is to hit him with 10-15 rounds, you're crazy.

NEOH212
07-23-2012, 02:06
What about the AR pistol variants? They classify as a handgun in most states and when loaded with M855, they will do the job against body armor.

It's nothing I'd want to tote around with me but it's a option for the stated purpose.

DonD
07-23-2012, 07:05
"Knockdown power" is as is well known, just a term. High energy impacts can do significant back face damage to the wearer of body armor.

Many years ago, the father of a kid who worked for me had been on the Detroit PD SWAT team. Retired and went to work for a small urban police department. Stopped a teenager on a routine traffic issue at night. Kid shot him with a shotgun, buck or slug I don't remember. Nothing penetrated the vest but he had an absolutely monstrous bruise on his chest.

Dirtbag judge gave the kid 6 mo in a "nice" jail and then ordered the cop to return the shotgun. Cop smashed the shotgun on the pavement and walked off. Don

Boats
07-23-2012, 10:02
http://i49.tinypic.com/104hxqs.jpg

Serbu Super Shorty + slugs. It's like nuking the problem from orbit.

Jack23
07-23-2012, 13:52
Train for the head shot............

bmoore
07-23-2012, 13:57
BP jackets aren't magical. Get shot with one on and it isn't pleasant. At the range that you will be in a shooting scenario, hitting a BG wearing a BP vest and he'll know it. That's enough to slow him down enough for some head shots.

They may not be magical but they are effective. The North Hollywood bank robbers in 1997 were believed have taken COM mass hits. One robber took his own life and the other was stopped by lower and upper leg wounds, he bled out in 30 minutes or so.

The_Gun_Guru
07-23-2012, 14:22
This plus my Norinco steel core will go right through a car....a vest would be easy!

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa310/gunguru364/The%20AKs/photobucket-2707-1324501208271.jpg

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa310/gunguru364/The%20AKs/photobucket-2720-1324501195697.jpg


I am told my KT PMR-30 will also pierce certain vests....:dunno:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa310/gunguru364/MISC%20Pistols/2012-01-25_16-09-07_833.jpg


Also keep in mind that kevlar breaks down after a while, so unless their vest is fairly new, it won't be very effective.


TGG

Angry Fist
07-23-2012, 14:25
9x25 Dillon? 2100 fps good enough?

my762buzz
07-23-2012, 15:00
This plus my Norinco steel core will go right through a car....a vest would be easy!
TGG

Any lead bullet over 1800 fps should punch right through nonplated armor, even soft points or hollow points.

Deaf Smith
07-23-2012, 17:19
9x25 Dillon? 2100 fps good enough?

Yea and a drop in barrel in my 10mm Glock would make that work!

Nice idea if need be.

Deaf

chemcmndr
07-23-2012, 17:42
The 5.7 is useless against body armor unless you have some AP ammo. Those civilian 5.7 loads are about as effective as a .17 Rimfire. The problem with pistols? No civilian legal AP ammo.

The only reason you'd need AP pistol ammo to defeat a body armored bad guys is because the average shooter is a horrible marksmen, even under the best conditions. Honestly, 95% of pistol shooters couldn't make a head shot at 21 feet if their life depended on it.

Well, with the Five-seveN, you can't get the FN marked AP ammunition from the manufacturer, but EA makes some loads that are hot enough to go through a soft vest. They're not listed as AP because the bullet itself doesn't have a penetrator inside it, so they're legal to buy/use.

countrygun
07-23-2012, 17:44
Where are all of the people who make all kinds of arguments about the danger of "over penetration" now?

Wasn't that a big evil thing in a few threads recently? How is something going to penetrate armor but not over penetrate if there is no armor to slow it down?

I suppose they will say " well we are talking about at home" like it makes a difference.

my762buzz
07-23-2012, 17:48
Where are all of the people who make all kinds of arguments about the danger of "over penetration" now?

Wasn't that a big evil thing in a few threads recently? How is something going to penetrate armor but not over penetrate if there is no armor to slow it down?

I suppose they will say " well we are talking about at home" like it makes a difference.

A hollow point CAN penetrate a nonplated armor vest and still expand properly enough to work inside a torso.

Think outside of the box.

Golddog
07-23-2012, 17:59
Train for the head shot............

"Train for the head shot" in a darkened theater with a hundred people running around in terror, where you could be a hundred feet from a shooter who has thrown a gas grenade and is firing an automatic rifle in all directions, when you may have family around you.

Wouldn't it be easier just to mine Kryptonite?

WoodenPlank
07-23-2012, 18:17
This was years ago mind you, but there was a Durham NC officer shot with a .22 through his vest if I am not mistaken.

A fella at a gun show tried to sell me a knife but mentioning how it would penetrate a bullet resistant vest like a hot knife through butter. I told him that was a repugnant sales pitch. Never got the knife.

Pretty sure that a standard ballistic vest won't stop knives. That's why they make special slash and pierce resistant armor for prison guards.

Also, if a .22 went through a IIA or IIIA vest, that vest was compromised in some way. Probably before many departments full understood that armor had to be replaced on a regular basis to remain effective.

"Train for the head shot" in a darkened theater with a hundred people running around in terror, where you could be a hundred feet from a shooter who has thrown a gas grenade and is firing an automatic rifle in all directions, when you may have family around you.

Wouldn't it be easier just to mine Kryptonite?

The Colorado shooter didn't have an automatic rifle, just a standard S&W AR-15 or some unknown variant.

Golddog
07-23-2012, 18:35
I corrected my post - semi-automatic rifle. Of course in this context it's a distinction without a difference. Given the Aurora situation, not many people could make a head shot, particularly given the chance of hitting innocent people.

Angry Fist
07-23-2012, 19:07
Yea and a drop in barrel in my 10mm Glock would make that work!

Nice idea if need be.

Deaf
I think I'll sell my 6" LWD 10mm and .357 to fund it.

AK_Stick
07-23-2012, 20:03
What about the AR pistol variants? They classify as a handgun in most states and when loaded with M855, they will do the job against body armor.

It's nothing I'd want to tote around with me but it's a option for the stated purpose.



Just about any flavor of 5.56, or 223, would smoke easily through a soft II, IIa or IIIa vest.

VBVAGUY
07-24-2012, 16:32
I am willing to bet that Armscor's 22 Micromag can defeat Level 3 soft body armor. From a 1911 made by Armscor it has a velocity of 2100 ft/sec. I have also read that in the Philippines where it is manufactured that a hand gun range there reported that they had to replace their steel backstop because the 22 micromags were penetrating it like regular rifle rounds such as the 5.56. God Bless :supergrin:

Climbhard
07-24-2012, 23:11
Body armor will never stop a 45acp in the head.

Bruce M
07-25-2012, 04:48
"Train for the head shot" in a darkened theater with a hundred people running around in terror, where you could be a hundred feet from a shooter who has thrown a gas grenade and is firing an automatic rifle in all directions, when you may have family around you.

Wouldn't it be easier just to mine Kryptonite? Hmm you might be on to something there that some might be missing



You might as well plan on a piano falling on your head, too.
:rofl::rofl:


Good point. In addition to a pistol/carbine in my backpack I should probably have an extra strong steel scaffolding that I can set up for protection from piano falling, SCBA in case I get trapped inside someplace on fire, a medium survival raft in case I end up in the water, a few oxygen bottles in case I find myself stranded above the timber line in the Himalayas. Guess I need to find a bigger backpack...

eracer
07-25-2012, 04:53
Magnum Research Lone Eagle chambered in .30-06

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/114623/9725192/lone%20eagle%20003.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg

Narkcop
07-25-2012, 04:54
Left that bit out, the availability of specific ammo...or lack there of.

SS-192 which can still be found (I have 3,000 rounds put back) will shoot thru a Level IIa vest. We have done it on a 4 year old vest.

ChuteTheMall
07-25-2012, 06:27
Interesting discussion to be sure, but most of us will be carrying the same ammo that many cops carry, in 9mm, 40 S&W, or .45acp.

It's important to practice failure to stop drills, if a burst to the chest doesn't put him down, aim for the head.
:faint:

platform
08-05-2012, 14:10
Handguns of 7.62x39, 5.45x39, .454, .460, or .500 have the potential to defeat nonplated vests. The key is minimum velocity. IIRC around 1800 fps.

speed wise
.22 TCM
9x25 dillon
can get there, but I doubt they have case size/structure that can hold pointee bullets -- therefore they are unlikely to defeat the vests.

PlasticGuy
08-05-2012, 15:25
The ability to penetrate soft armor absolutely does NOT drive my ccw choice. That said, it's a nice ability to have. Body armor was unheard of 15 years ago. Now, almost every LE Officer in the country wears it. There is also a lot of used armor coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan with returning troops. It's more available now than ever. The odds of a randomly selected robbery involving armor is slim. The odds of an active shooter using it is getting higher all the time.

My wife's handgun of choice is the Five seveN, so I educated myself about what it can and cannot to. I was impressed enough to buy another one for myself. Regardless of what the detractors say, it is terminally effective. It's also very capable of penetrating body armor with either FN factory armor piercing ammo, or one of several options from EA and other custom loaders. It's not complicated. A 55 grain fmj loaded to max will zip right through any soft body armor. Best of all, the loads that penetrate armor and the loads that do well terminally are the same rounds. No, I am not saying that it's the best choice ever. It is a viable option though.

bfg1971
08-06-2012, 12:41
Could you crimp a projectile from an ss-109 5.56 round into a 5.7FN case? If it could be done then you have an easy source of AP ammo for the 5.7 assuming you reload.

PlasticGuy
08-06-2012, 18:20
Could you crimp a projectile from an ss-109 5.56 round into a 5.7FN case? If it could be done then you have an easy source of AP ammo for the 5.7 assuming you reload.
I think that would be illegal, I know the bullet would be too long to be able to do load it, and it's unneccessary anyway. A standard 55 grain fmj loaded to max pressure will punch through any soft armor, and no bullet will defeat a rifle plate with the 5.7 cartridge.

AK_Stick
08-06-2012, 20:39
Could you crimp a projectile from an ss-109 5.56 round into a 5.7FN case? If it could be done then you have an easy source of AP ammo for the 5.7 assuming you reload.


SS-109 isn't armor perceiving. Its just regular military M855 ball.

M955, is AP. And I've only ever seen about two cases for sale in the civilian world. And I'm almost positive they were probably illegally acquired.