If you use a stock barrel, do you reload your brass? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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alank2
07-22-2012, 20:52
Hi Everyone,


If you use a stock barrel, do you reload your brass?

I tried a few what I thought were 30K or lower pressure loads, and the result was 18 out of 20 cases so balooned that resizing them gives a sharp crease where the sizing die stops. I also had a pretty hefty gouge in the case rim.

Thanks,

Alan

TDC20
07-22-2012, 21:04
I absolutely reload brass fired from the stock G20 barrel and have never had a problem like you describe. I'm assuming that the brass you're resizing isn't glock smiled, right?

What dies are you using? I usually use a Redding carbide die, but I have also used the Lee carbide die, and I haven't had this issue. Ever.

Try measuring your fired case head diameter just above the extraction groove before resizing. For Starline brass, that will measure .422" before firing, and after one of firing a full power load should still measure less than .424" Resizing won't reduce that diameter unless you run the brass through a pass-thru resizer. If it's bigger than .424" after one firing, then you might be getting excessive pressure with that load, and that would make sense that you are getting a ridge after resizing.

alank2
07-22-2012, 21:13
Hi,

I would say they might have been on the edge of wanting to smile. Of the 18 that creased when resized, they range from 0.422 to 0.424 with only one being 0.425. New cases are 0.421. Starline nickel. I am using Redding pro series carbide. Could the sizing die be too small?

It is sizing them to 0.4165 to 0.417...

Thanks,

Alan

alank2
07-23-2012, 06:33
Hi,

I moved your reply from the other thread to this one...

I am assuming that when you say a sharp edge, you just mean a visiblie line where the die stopped sizing. If it is something different than that, then there may be other issues.

Here is what they look like after resizing.

http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/brasssize.jpg

Thanks,

Alan

WeeWilly
07-23-2012, 10:50
..Here is what they look like after resizing.

http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/brasssize.jpg

Thanks,

Alan

I reload my brass I shoot out of my stock G20 and G29 barrels. All my hotter loads get bulged down by the head and using my Dillon sizer, after sizing the bulge is quite noticable, although no definitive line is there like in your picture. I think mine has no definitive line mainly because the mouth of my die is radiused, so the transition to the bulge is less dramatic.

I lube my cases with Hornaday One Shot as well, seems to help with sizing of the most bulged brass.

BTW, my KKM barrel's chamber down by the head is not a great deal tighter than my stock barrel, if at all, so I seem to get about the same amount of bulge.

I also get extractor rash on some of my hottest loads, mainly on my G20 (less so on my G29). The extractor rash doesn't seem to affect loading or feeding in subsequent cycles.

I only load my nuke loads in virgin Starline brass, all the reloads are lighter (i.e. say, 180gr @ 1225fps, etc.).

Any Cal.
07-23-2012, 13:05
That would scare me too! My dies size down to the same spot, but don't leave a big step like that. Is it really several thou thick? On mine i can just barely feel the line with a fingernail.

alwaysshootin
07-23-2012, 13:14
Yes is do! It is all specific to the particular glock firearm. On my 6th, and 3, bulged brass so bad, I would not reload it. The other 3 you would think have match grade chambers. The newest of the 3 with loose chambers was a G20SF 3rd Gen, and it was the worst! Threw the brass away immediately. Like I said it varies from firearm to firearm.

alank2
07-23-2012, 14:01
Hi,

Yes is do! It is all specific to the particular glock firearm. On my 6th, and 3, bulged brass so bad, I would not reload it. The other 3 you would think have match grade chambers. The newest of the 3 with loose chambers was a G20SF 3rd Gen, and it was the worst! Threw the brass away immediately. Like I said it varies from firearm to firearm.

Wow, that is disappointing. I guess mine is a loose chamber. I took the barrel off and put a new starline case (before resizing) in it and there is a ton of room around the case. I was really hoping to use the factory barrel. I suppose this means that I can, but only if I don't reload brass shot from it...

Thanks,

Alan

nickE10mm
07-23-2012, 14:10
I use both stock and aftermarket and yes I reload the cases! Never seen anything with a crease like you're resizing die is apparently doing. Wow!

alank2
07-23-2012, 14:14
Hi Guys,

When you resize a case, what does it resize to? I was measuring in about the middle of the case. Mine is 0.4165" to 0.417"...

Do you guys think the nickel makes this worse?

Thanks,

Alan

Taterhead
07-23-2012, 15:07
Yes. I do. Thousands of times. An average of 9 loads through Starline brass. The crease that you are seeing appears to be brass that has been bulldozed by a very square resizing die. That is not normal. I would suspect it might be a function of the shape or the die rather than the Glock chamber. It is sort of hard to tell from the photos. My RCBS carbide die is rounded, so it doe not leave a line such as the one you posted.

Nickel has more friction on the die, so it is possibly pushing brass in front of it rather than gliding over it. The only time I have seen brass do that is after running some smiled cases through the sizer just to see what would happen.

I would first look at the interior of the die to see that it has a curved transition to he sizer ring. My next look would be to ensure that your loads are not hotter than you think they are.

Taterhead
07-23-2012, 15:10
I absolutely reload brass fired from the stock G20 barrel and have never had a problem like you describe. I'm assuming that the brass you're resizing isn't glock smiled, right?

What dies are you using? I usually use a Redding carbide die, but I have also used the Lee carbide die, and I haven't had this issue. Ever.

Try measuring your fired case head diameter just above the extraction groove before resizing. For Starline brass, that will measure .422" before firing, and after one of firing a full power load should still measure less than .424" Resizing won't reduce that diameter unless you run the brass through a pass-thru resizer. If it's bigger than .424" after one firing, then you might be getting excessive pressure with that load, and that would make sense that you are getting a ridge after resizing.
Do you mean 0.434"? After firing a hot load?

SPIN2010
07-23-2012, 15:14
I would be checking the die ... something is amiss. Do you have a new Starline Nickel case about? Resize it, measure it, and see if it does the same. I use Dillon dies but ... should be pretty same-same.

WeeWilly
07-23-2012, 17:00
Here is a photo of one of mine after sizing in my Dillon sizing die. The dimension prior to sizing at the widest part of the bulge is .434".

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/Bill_Steele/003-7.jpg

alank2
07-23-2012, 17:12
Hi,

Unsized new starline nickel = 0.421"
Sized new starline nickel = 0.4165" to where the sizer stops.

The die in question does look weird. The carbide isn't shiny, and actually looks quite pitted under magnification so I'm thinking there is something wrong with the die. I'm going to contact Redding.

If anyone here would size a new 10mm case and tell me what it sizes to, I'd love to see what someone else's number is.

Thanks,

Alan

alank2
07-23-2012, 17:16
Hi,

Also, I can faintly see the line when I sized a new case. Could this be a press alignment issue? I'm using a 550. I always lower the die all the way, bring it up 1/4 turn, put a case in it to align it, and then tighten the die ring....

Thanks,

Alan

WeeWilly
07-23-2012, 17:18
New brass sized or unsized it measures .421" where the sizing die ends.

alank2
07-23-2012, 17:22
Hi,

New brass sized or unsized it measures .421" where the sizing die ends.

What does it measure in the middle when sized?

Thanks,

Alan

WeeWilly
07-23-2012, 17:29
Hi,



What does it measure in the middle when sized?

Thanks,

Alan

.418" from the case mouth to where the sizer ends with the die mouth a paper's width off the shellplate. Appears to be about .003" of neck tension.

On the faint line, I get that as well where the sizer ends on a new case. I always size new cases.

_The_Shadow
07-23-2012, 21:20
The answer is to try the redding GRX "Pass-Thru" or the LEE FCD as a "Pass-Thru die", LEE also sells the Bulge Buster kit. I use the LEE FCD with the guts removed as a "Pass-Thru die". This has reconditiond brass to fit the Cartridge Gauge without any sharp edges. The "SMILE" condition brass can NOT be reconditioned period!

Many of my cases do reach 0.434" in my G-29 barrel with full power loadings, they look like new when passed thru sized by the carbide sizing ring in the LEE FCD.

You might want to give it a try to see if things improve for you! :)

Fire_Medic
07-23-2012, 21:36
I'm going to contact Redding

Which Redding dies are you using? No one has asked so I will. Because I also own a Dillon 550B and I use the Redding Pro Series dies which are tungsten/carbide dies and they have been perfect for the 3 years or so I have been using them in 9mm, 40SW, and 45ACP.

Just got the 10MM stuff in, including the dies, so I can provide feedback, but I will tell you this. I started out reloading 40SW, and with the redding dies I have NEVER needed a FCD, or GRX dies, etc, and my 40 SW Glocks all used stock barrels.

If you're die is steel, you need case lube, from your description it would seem you have set the die up properly so that does not concern me.

One more photo that will help the group, is if you could take a picture of one of your loaded up rounds sitting in your barrel with the barrel out of the pistol, so we can see how much case support you do or do not have.

If you want I can try some pics tomorrow comparing the Barsto barrel I just got to my stock barrel from the G20SF.

I have not shot mine yet, but will soon.

FM

Taterhead
07-23-2012, 22:48
Hi Guys,

When you resize a case, what does it resize to? I was measuring in about the middle of the case. Mine is 0.4165" to 0.417"...

Do you guys think the nickel makes this worse?

Thanks,

Alan

Through my RCBS carbide die, the diameter in the middle of the case is 0.419".

TDC20
07-24-2012, 00:01
Alan,

I also have the Redding Titanium Carbide die. It sizes the brass down to about .418". The carbide part of my die has a shiny mirror finish and a fairly generous radius on it.

I do remember someone having a similar issue with the sizing rings on his brass a while back. I'll see if I can locate the thread. His problem was that he was trying to get full power loads using a powder that was just too fast for the application, so the brass was flowing outward at the case head a bit too much. When the sizer got to the case head, it left a similar ring. It doesn't seem like that is your problem if the largest diameter at your case heads measures .425"

Do you mean 0.434"? After firing a hot load?
Taterhead,

I'm definitely in the minority here on how I determine pressure limits from fired brass measurements. I know most people measure the case expansion along the thin walls of the case, and that does have some merit. The reason I don't measure there is that part of the brass is constrained by the chamber when it expands, and there is almost always a little bit of spring-back after the pressure drops. So the expansion there approaches a diminishing number as you approach maximum pressure. Instead, I measure expansion at the case head, which is around the thick part of the brass web just above the extraction groove. Even though the expansion there is not as large on a moderately loaded round, the brass isn't constrained by the chamber there, so it is free to increase as the pressure goes up. You get a much more linear measurement, especially at max loadings. I also only measure the first loading with Starline brass. After the first firing, you don't really know what the starting dimension of the case head was, and the brass will start work hardening more after each firing.

I'm not saying one method is right and the other is wrong, I just have found that for me, measuring at the case head gives me what I feel is more useful data.

alank2
07-24-2012, 07:01
Hi Everyone,

.418" from the case mouth to where the sizer ends with the die mouth a paper's width off the shellplate.

Through my RCBS carbide die, the diameter in the middle of the case is 0.419".

Thanks guys, I was reading last night and I saw a post where someone mentioned that Redding reduced the size to 0.415" to increase case tension. Not sure if that is true or not, but I don't want to see the brass worked more than it needs to be. Mine are 0.4165 to 0.417 which isn't much differnent that 0.418 or 0.419, but I have to wonder if it is just too much after firing expansion.

The answer is to try the redding GRX "Pass-Thru" or the LEE FCD as a "Pass-Thru die", LEE also sells the Bulge Buster kit. I use the LEE FCD with the guts removed as a "Pass-Thru die". This has reconditiond brass to fit the Cartridge Gauge without any sharp edges. The "SMILE" condition brass can NOT be reconditioned period!

Which leads me to consider trying this. If I were to resize the entire piece (assuming NO smile), would it then survive the resize without the crease...

One other option I am considering is could my press be out of alignment. I had this happen once years ago and the result was a hard pushed edge at the base of brass in 38 special.

Which Redding dies are you using? No one has asked so I will. Because I also own a Dillon 550B and I use the Redding Pro Series dies which are tungsten/carbide dies and they have been perfect for the 3 years or so I have been using them in 9mm, 40SW, and 45ACP.

They are the Pro series carbine TIC dies. I have been using these exclusively because I like them so much. The left is 9mm from 4-5 years ago, the middle is a 44mag from a few months ago, and the 40/10mm is the one of the right just ordered from Midway. I really like the way the radius is on the 9mm and it has a full height carbine ring to taper a 9mm case properly. The other two are straight wall cases and have a shorter carbine ring, but the ring is different. I'm not surprised it is inset for protection these days, but it lacks the type of radius the 9mm one has.

Note that the 40/10mm die is much duller than the other two. You can really see it in the bottom picture with the flash. It has many tiny little pits in it.

http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/dies.jpg

One more photo that will help the group, is if you could take a picture of one of your loaded up rounds sitting in your barrel with the barrel out of the pistol, so we can see how much case support you do or do not have.

I shot up all my test loads!! I can say that if I put even an unsized Starline case in there that it is free to move all around with tons of wiggle room. Is there a way to measure a chamber?

I am tempted to return the Redding set and try out a Lee Deluxe set with the bulge buster. It is either that or return it for replacement and see if the next resizing die looks normal. FireMedic - how does your sizing die look if you recently bought it?

Thanks,

Alan

Fire_Medic
07-24-2012, 07:55
Alan I have not set mine up yet for 10MM, but I will try and snap some pictures from you today. I will say though, that I bought the 10MM set, not the combo 40/10 set, I don't think there would be a difference in the sizing die but maybe there is. The guy who turned me on to these dies some time ago told me if they make a combo set AND they make a set for just the caliber you need, buy the set made just for the caliber you need. I was never given an explanation why but that's how I have done it. Maybe someone can chime in on what the differences would be?

And I only offered up my info on the 40SW because back a few years everyone was saying how dangerous 40 is/was to load, and you HAVE to have a FCD if you shoot from a Glock barrel, blah, blah, blah. And well 40 is a shorter 10MM.

Anyhow, these die sets are top notch and I would really like to see this play out to find the issue, because it would surprise me if it was the sizing die, hence why so many people are after the GRX die, who makes it, Redding, and it's of the same material as the T/C Pro Series die sets.

I will report back a little later, I can snap pics for you, and I will try and see if I can get any clear pics of some of the Underwood ammo I got in my bars to barrel just for chits and giggles.

FM

Fire_Medic
07-24-2012, 08:29
Alan,

I am not the most experienced of the reloaders around these parts, but I do have experience with these die sets. I was doing some thinking and then verified with the instructions. I really think I know what your issue is.

You have a combo set for both 40SW and 10MM. When you switch to reload for the longer case, you need back the seating dies (station 3 for you on your 550) an extra 1/8" or so to compensate for the extra length of the 10MM case VS the 40SW. You cannot simply screw the die down to the shell plate and back off a bit as that would be for the shorter 40SW.

Please give this a try and attempt to resize another case and let me know if this does the trick.

Thanks
Gabe :wavey:

alank2
07-24-2012, 08:50
Hi Gabe,

Good idea, but I just checked the bullet seating die and it is 1/8" above the shellplate when the shellplate is up.

I did some measurements on the G20SF chamber using what I have. A 0.420" unsized starline case and some 0.005" masking tape. It would seem that it is 0.425" at the case mouth end of the chamber (as I can snugly fit a case with masking take on one side into it), but the case head end of the chamber is larger. I can fit a case with two sides masking taped (0.430") and spin it. My guess would be the case mouth end of the chamber is near 0.425" and the case head end is near 0.430". This is assuming my crude way of measuring is at all close to being valid...

The same case without masking tape seems to swim around in the chamber, easily rocked from side to side, etc.

I got an email reply from Redding so I pointed them to the pictures in this thread to get their opinion.

Thanks,

Alan

Fire_Medic
07-24-2012, 08:58
Needs to be an "extra" 1/8" from where it would already be backed out for 40SW, back it out another 1/4" or so, if you only have 1/8" total it's still not backed out enough.

Then resize another case and see what happens, that should do it.

alank2
07-24-2012, 09:01
Hi,

Gabe - I'm unfortunately out of fired cases - I need to go back to the range and "make" some more. I'll back it up another 1/8" and see how it does when I get some cases to try. Thanks!

Here a picture of an unsized starline case (0.420) in the chamber:

http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/g20sup.jpg

Thanks,

Alan

Fire_Medic
07-24-2012, 09:23
Ok Alan, here's some pics. One set with the Barsto Semi Drop-in barrel, and another set with the factory Glock barrel. And one of the gun with the Barsto just as a thanks to Nick for the barrel trade :supergrin:

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_5278.jpg

This is a brand new Starline case in the Barsto Barrel:
http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_5268.jpg

This is new Underwood 180gr FMJ in Barsto barrel:
http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_5269.jpg

Underwood 180gr Golden Sabre JHP in Barsto Barrel:
http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_5270.jpg

And this is once fired brass (180gr American Eagle FMJ) shot out of the factory barrel but not resized or anything yet, in the Barsto barrel. Note how it won't even drop in:
http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_5271.jpg

Fire_Medic
07-24-2012, 09:27
Now the stock barrel:

Brand new Starline case in stock barrel:
http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_5272.jpg

Underwood 180gr FMJ in Stock barrel:
http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_5275.jpg

Underwood 180gr Golden Sabre JHP in Stock barrel:
http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_5273.jpg

And the real shocker, here's that same piece of once fired AE brass that wouldn't drop into the Barsto:
http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_5276.jpg

alank2
07-24-2012, 09:29
Hi,

Excellent pictures!!! How much wobble is there in the Glock barrel with the ammo - can you move it left/right/up/down a bit?

Thanks,

Alan

Fire_Medic
07-24-2012, 09:35
Hi,

Excellent pictures!!! How much wobble is there in the Glock barrel with the ammo - can you move it left/right/up/down a bit?

Thanks,

Alan

Very minimal movement in the Barsto, but yes movement in the Glock barrel.

_The_Shadow
07-24-2012, 10:33
Good stuff Fire Medic, that right there is why I started using a"Pass-Thru sizing system". I have been using the LEE FCD as a"Pass-Thru sizer" with great results reconditioning my brass. Acartridge case gauge is even tighter than the Bar-Sto chamber.

Any Cal.
07-24-2012, 13:50
Most of this stuff is a non issue. The stock chamber is much bigger. If your dies are right, you don't need a pass thru die. I used Lee dies and sized brass from a factory barrel, and it fit fine in a super tight LoneWolf. The problem is in the dies, most likely the sizing ring. The big problem is that the die is scraping down the brass, rather than squeezing it. There is no need for a different barrel, pass-thru die, etc. You may need your sizer die fixed.

FWIW, I size 10 and 40 brass in the same die position w/ no issues.

WeeWilly
07-24-2012, 14:13
Most of this stuff is a non issue. The stock chamber is much bigger. If your dies are right, you don't need a pass thru die. I used Lee dies and sized brass from a factory barrel, and it fit fine in a super tight LoneWolf. The problem is in the dies, most likely the sizing ring. The big problem is that the die is scraping down the brass, rather than squeezing it. There is no need for a different barrel, pass-thru die, etc. You may need your sizer die fixed.

FWIW, I size 10 and 40 brass in the same die position w/ no issues.

I agree with this viewpoint. My Dillon sizer has a bigger radius at the mouth than a Lee die and my cases when reloaded fit my KKM barrel fine. Now I do have to say, my KKM barrel is no way as tight or have case support at the ramp like Fire Medic's Barsto. In fact, the difference between my KKM and stock barrel, as it pertains to chamber fit and support around the ramp) is not very great at all (in 10mm, different story on my G21SF).

I get better accuracy out of my stock barrel than my KKM so I rarely use it anyway, so it really isn't an issue for me at all.

alank2
07-24-2012, 14:22
Hi,

I've been emailing back and forth with Redding a couple of times today and they called me to discuss the issue. He said the pitting look in the picture above is simply because that surface wasn't as polished as my other dies. I did look deeper into the die and the inside of the ring is polished smooth. He also said that it is possible that by sizing the entire case first using their through case sizer might reduce the case ahead of time to a size that the carbide sizer could reduce without the crease. They offered for me to send some cases in that they would run through it and send back so I could see if this would work. He also offered that I could send the die in and they would check it out. They are going to be closed after next week however for their summer vacation at Redding though. I can't complain about Redding support, but I'm still not sure the direction I want to try with this.

What is odd is that I think the side of the case with the bulge is opposite the side of the case with the crease.

I think I'm going to order a Lee Deluxe kit and their bulge buster and do some testing. I'm going to make some more fired cases and try them in the 4 possibilities: Redding sized only, Lee sized only, Lee bulge + Redding sized, Lee bulge + Lee sized...

Thanks,

Alan

Any Cal.
07-24-2012, 20:22
Whatever is cool, but I have read that Lee dies size to the same size as their bulge buster. If you want to send me a few cases, I can size them in a regular die, and you can see if you want to invest in anything more than just a different sizer. PM me if you want to do that. Regardless, I hope you get it sorted out one way or another!

alank2
07-24-2012, 20:27
Hi Any Cal,

Whatever is cool, but I have read that Lee dies size to the same size as their bulge buster. If you want to send me a few cases, I can size them in a regular die, and you can see if you want to invest in anything more than just a different sizer. PM me if you want to do that. Regardless, I hope you get it sorted out one way or another!

I appreciate that - PM me your address and I'll send 5 cases as soon as I get some more fired ones for you to try to size. Thanks for the help!!

Alan

alank2
07-25-2012, 09:17
Hi,

By the way, I got my caliper out and measured the factory chamber dimensions :

case mouth 0.425"
case head 0.434"

I am wondering if a replacement barrel is really what I need, KKM, Storm Lake, etc..

Thanks,

Alan

WeeWilly
07-25-2012, 09:52
Hi,

By the way, I got my caliper out and measured the factory chamber dimensions :

case mouth 0.425"
case head 0.434"

I am wondering if a replacement barrel is really what I need, KKM, Storm Lake, etc..

Thanks,

Alan

I only have one 10mm KKM barrel and have never actually measured it. While the ramp cut is a little more shallow than my stock barrels (a little less intrusion into the chamber), the chamber seems as loose at the head as my stock barrels (i.e. you can wiggle the round around quite a bit, less with previously fired brass and its fatter girth ;) ).

I think if a tighter chamber is what you are looking for, maybe a Barsto like Fire Medic has will get you there, not sure the KKM will be a large impriovement, at least judging from my one and only example.

alank2
07-25-2012, 09:58
Hi,

The other contender (they offer black with QPQ) is Storm Lake. I don't love the side logo however. They said their dimensions are 0.424" case mouth, 0.4281" case head. I am waiting for KKM to respond with my chamber dimension request.

Thanks,

Alan

nickE10mm
07-25-2012, 10:18
I only have one 10mm KKM barrel and have never actually measured it. While the ramp cut is a little more shallow than my stock barrels (a little less intrusion into the chamber), the chamber seems as loose at the head as my stock barrels (i.e. you can wiggle the round around quite a bit, less with previously fired brass and its fatter girth ;) ).

I think if a tighter chamber is what you are looking for, maybe a Barsto like Fire Medic has will get you there, not sure the KKM will be a large impriovement, at least judging from my one and only example.

I've owned Federal, KKM and Barsto with Glocks and a custom ramped Fusion 1911 longslide barrel. The tightest of them all have been Barsto and Fusion, both of which fed the BEST of all of them, ironically. Tight doesn't mean poor feeding, and open doesn't guaranteed good feeding. FWIW, my Barsto (both ones I owned) measured .425-.426" and my Fusion measured the same.

I just got a 6" KKM for my G20sf and it also measures .4260-.4265".

nickE10mm
07-25-2012, 10:27
...thanks to Nick for the barrel trade :supergrin:


Thanks to Gabe for the barrel trade, as well! We killed two birds with one stone... the "model of efficiency" ha!! BTW, that Barsto is the best, most accurate, well supported and strongest barrel money can buy. You can bet on that. The case support on the Barsto is unreal. It was the same on my 6" Barsto years back.... Irv Stone definitely knows "what's up"

BTW....

Gabe 2
Nick 0

lol

alank2
07-25-2012, 11:32
Hi,

I'm looking for super supported so much as I am looking for 100% reliable and still reloadable...

Thanks everyone,

Alan

alank2
07-25-2012, 20:20
Hi,

Is there a difference between case support at the 6 o'clock position and overall chamber looseness? For example, with a new unsized case in the chamber, it looks like there is maybe between 1/16th to 3/32nd's of exposed case at the 6 o'clock area. I chopped one of my destroyed cases in half and it looks like it is pretty solid about that far in. Would this mean that it has pretty decent support against a blowout even though the overall chamber is oversized and allows the brass to balloon into it?

Just rambling! I ordered the Lee dies and bulge buster kit today just to see how it compares.

Thanks

Alan

Taterhead
07-25-2012, 21:40
Alan,

Taterhead,

I'm definitely in the minority here on how I determine pressure limits from fired brass measurements. I know most people measure the case expansion along the thin walls of the case, and that does have some merit. The reason I don't measure there is that part of the brass is constrained by the chamber when it expands, and there is almost always a little bit of spring-back after the pressure drops. So the expansion there approaches a diminishing number as you approach maximum pressure. Instead, I measure expansion at the case head, which is around the thick part of the brass web just above the extraction groove. Even though the expansion there is not as large on a moderately loaded round, the brass isn't constrained by the chamber there, so it is free to increase as the pressure goes up. You get a much more linear measurement, especially at max loadings. I also only measure the first loading with Starline brass. After the first firing, you don't really know what the starting dimension of the case head was, and the brass will start work hardening more after each firing.

I'm not saying one method is right and the other is wrong, I just have found that for me, measuring at the case head gives me what I feel is more useful data.

Ah. Got it. That makes sense if you are measuring a different spot. Thanks for clarifying.

Taterhead
07-25-2012, 21:49
Most of this stuff is a non issue. The stock chamber is much bigger. If your dies are right, you don't need a pass thru die. ... The problem is in the dies, most likely the sizing ring. The big problem is that the die is scraping down the brass, rather than squeezing it. There is no need for a different barrel, pass-thru die, etc. You may need your sizer die fixed.

FWIW, I size 10 and 40 brass in the same die position w/ no issues.

I completely agree. No need for a pass through die if using the stock barrel. 10 & 40 is resized in the same position. Carbide dies will be turned all the way down to the shell holder and then backed off a hair so that they just barely do not make contact. I really think this is a resizer issue -- IF -- there wasn't an excessive bulge or glocksmile prior to resizing.

alank2
07-25-2012, 21:58
Hi,

-- IF -- there wasn't an excessive bulge or glocksmile prior to resizing.

I'm not sure if there was excessive bulge or not. It was a medium power load. I didn't see the glock smile in them.

Next time I'll measure the fired cases...

Thanks,

Alan

Any Cal.
07-26-2012, 12:06
Hi,

Is there a difference between case support at the 6 o'clock position and overall chamber looseness? For example, with a new unsized case in the chamber, it looks like there is maybe between 1/16th to 3/32nd's of exposed case at the 6 o'clock area. I chopped one of my destroyed cases in half and it looks like it is pretty solid about that far in. Would this mean that it has pretty decent support against a blowout even though the overall chamber is oversized and allows the brass to balloon into it?

Just rambling! I ordered the Lee dies and bulge buster kit today just to see how it compares.

Thanks

Alan

Generally when people on GT talk about case support, they are referring to how far the feed ramp intrudes into the chamber.

A tight chamber can have good or bad case support, depending on how the feed ramp is cut, but the loose chamber usually doesn't have great case support.

Whether full casehead support even matters is another story altogether...

alank2
07-26-2012, 13:59
Hi,

Well...I'm starting to get frustrated and beginning to question the brass...

I loaded up 20 more rounds:
10 of Blue Dot 10gr for 180gr GDHP, CCI 300, 1.250 oal, new starline nickel
10 of Accurate #7 9.6gr for 200gr XTP, CCI 300, 1.250 oal, new starline nickel

Only fired 2 rounds before STOPPING:

http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/g20brass.jpg

First round 1116 fps, stopped, picked up case, looked pretty good other than the ballooning which didn't even seem to bad.

Second case 1136 fps, stopped picked up case, noticed the large vertical split in it and decided not to shoot the remaining 18 rounds...

Not a hot load, it chrono'd at 1136 fps, but split nasty. I am really starting to wonder about Starline Nickel brass. I had this happen once a few years ago with Starline Nickel and 38 special - sent the brass to Starline and they said the brass was bad.

What do you guys think??? I gotta go and see if I can polish out the burn mark in my G20 chamber.... :(

Thanks,

Alan

dm1906
07-26-2012, 14:34
Hi,

Well...I'm starting to get frustrated and beginning to question the brass...

I loaded up 20 more rounds:
10 of Blue Dot 10gr for 180gr GDHP, CCI 300, 1.250 oal, new starline nickel
10 of Accurate #5 9.6gr for 200gr XTP, CCI 300, 1.250 oal, new starline nickel

Only fired 2 rounds before STOPPING:



First round 1116 fps, stopped, picked up case, looked pretty good other than the ballooning which didn't even seem to bad.

Second case 1136 fps, stopped picked up case, noticed the large vertical split in it and decided not to shoot the remaining 18 rounds...

Not a hot load, it chrono'd at 1136 fps, but split nasty. I am really starting to wonder about Starline Nickel brass. I had this happen once a few years ago with Starline Nickel and 38 special - sent the brass to Starline and they said the brass was bad.

What do you guys think??? I gotta go and see if I can polish out the burn mark in my G20 chamber.... :(

Thanks,

Alan

Considering what you've seen so far, the serious case crease during sizing, what appears to be excessive case bulge, and the actual case failure, I would STRONGLY recommend having a VERY close look at your barrel/chamber. Measure it, and check it for cracks, visually, then magnaflux if necessary. Inside and out.

Also, consider the possibility the pressure signs aren't occurring while in the chamber. Try to fit one of the fired cases (before sizing, and not a ruptured case) back into the chamber. It should fit, even if it takes a little force to push it in. Match the orientation it was fired. If it doesn't fit, you have an issue with timing, or the chamber is cracked (expanding during firing).

Bad brass is certainly a possibility (happened to me this year). However, what you are seeing isn't all that can/does happen with a weak alloy and the charges you are using. If the primers are staying in, the pressure isn't great enough to cause the head to fail, and this should also apply to the case wall.

_The_Shadow
07-26-2012, 14:45
Bad piece of brass is always a possibility especially when split long ways like that pictured...

Your Blue Dot load should be Good to go but the Acurate #5 is a little too fast for the heavy 200XTP in my opinion! The same load of Blue Dot would be a better loading for the 200 grain bullet! It is what I use and have gone to 10.5 grains of BD @ 1180-1200 fps from the S&W1006

alank2
07-26-2012, 14:58
Considering what you've seen so far, the serious case crease during sizing, what appears to be excessive case bulge, and the actual case failure, I would STRONGLY recommend having a VERY close look at your barrel/chamber. Measure it, and check it for cracks, visually, then magnaflux if necessary. Inside and out.

Do you mean for a hairline crack or something? The chamber looks solid (at least to my eye) inside and out.

Try to fit one of the fired cases (before sizing, and not a ruptured case) back into the chamber. It should fit, even if it takes a little force to push it in. Match the orientation it was fired.

It fits and freely rotates. I used the fired case in the picture above.

Your Blue Dot load should be Good to go but the Acurate #5 is a little too fast for the heavy 200XTP in my opinion!

You are absolutely right, that was a typo, I am using #7. The BD load is the one that split the case!

When I pinged Starline about my earlier issues with the resize crease they mentioned:

From past experience I would say that the radius on the die is not properly blended into the land of the die. Where the radius and the land meet you should not be able to see a sharp corner. This coupled with the fact that you are sizing it down to about .003 below the SAAMI minimum of .420, and that it is being fired from a Glock are what is causing your problems. We make the brass to a diameter of .421 which works perfectly, so I would try to find a sizing die that is closer to that.

Shouldn't it tolerate going to 0.4165" to 0.417"? 0.420 wouldn't seem to offer much neck tension...

Thanks,

Alan

alank2
07-26-2012, 15:34
Hi,

By the way, the fired case that didn't rupture measures 0.424" at the case mouth, 0.428" in the middle, and 0.433" at the most ballooned part. It doesn't seem to be bulged on any one particular side or another, it is concentric.

Thanks,

Alan

dm1906
07-26-2012, 15:39
Do you mean for a hairline crack or something? The chamber looks solid (at least to my eye) inside and out.

Yes. That is why I suggest magnaflux. If it were obvious enough to see easily, it would likely be too late (KB!).

It fits and freely rotates. I used the fired case in the picture above.It should fit, and sounds normal. Timing is probably OK, too. If it were overpressure or weak brass, the chamber ramp area should bulge greater, preventing rotation.

You are absolutely right, that was a typo, I am using #7. The BD load is the one that split the case!Whew! I saw that and started digging through load data (then saw you edited it). Your AA7 load is OK, and shouldn't be an issue.

When I pinged Starline about my earlier issues with the resize crease they mentioned:

Shouldn't it tolerate going to 0.4165" to 0.417"? 0.420 wouldn't seem to offer much neck tension...

Thanks,

AlanStarline is correct. Just seating the bullet (.400") will expand the case mouth to .422-.423", minimum. More than enough neck tension.

Even if your die is undersized, you are still blowing up NEW brass, and the brass isn't showing other telltale signs of overpressure. Something is very wrong here, and I think it may be your barrel. Either cracked, or oversize chamber.

CanyonMan
07-26-2012, 16:00
Hi,

I moved your reply from the other thread to this one...

Here is what they look like after resizing.

http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/brasssize.jpg

Thanks,

Alan



alank2


I have a set of Lee dies that are undersized, and they are the EXACT twin to the brass in your picture with the big wide band around the bottom. Also when seating a bullet, I get a really pronouned buldge at the base of the bullet in the brass as well...

Put those dies on the shelf and said "heck with this.." That is a mess looking to happen.

I then talked with RCBS (which is about all I use any way) and they sent me a die .1K under sized and that problem went away, meaning the Lee die was a tad to undersized, and also the RCBS allowed for a better 'base" at the bottom of the die to go a bit further down.

All this will probably be sticks to swallow with folks, but all this taking the huge buldge out, and shooting, and taking it out, and shooting, one day, WILL have a pay day. Like putting ammo in and out of a mag all the time and weakening the spring. One day the place the "buldge was ironed out several times" is going to land at the six 'oclock area in the OEM barrel, and blow !

I promise you !


You can't place that type strain even on brass with out making it weaker in that spot each time.

The pics you have shown above here, withe the reall under sized squeezed down brass with the wide belt at bottom, begins to weaken the brass around the top part of that wide band at the bottom web area, and it 'will crack open'.

I don't know how you got a die so undersized with out ordering it, but that is what makes that band at the bottom, and ALSO will give you a REAL tight friction fit on the bullet and a decent buldge usually at the base of the seated bullet.

I shoot my hottest loads through the Stock G20 barrel, and use the RCBS .1k undersize to iron that out, and fire it 'once more', and then they get loaded down to 'popper' play time stuff. (when in the OEM barrel).

If I want to save brass life a bit, I use the LW barrel in the G20..

Some Guys say they get dozens of loadings, and even more some of them, with their hot loaded OEM barrels. Folks can get away at times for years of doing this and that, but one day..... ! :whistling:


I know a nut case that never checked his oil in his truck, I looked at it one day caused the motor smelled like it was burning... The dipstick was BONE dry . I ask how long it had been since he added/changed oil, he hung his head and said about a year or so.... (older truck btw). Well then it one day freezes up or blows up. Point made.

Point is: "One day." !


So, I also saw on page 3 here I think it was, your split case...

For many years I been shooting 11.0grs BD and 10.7grs BD, and 10.5grs BD With different cast bullets and XTP's and never a problem, at all in the stock OEM Glock barrel in G20/and G29. But again, I only shoot my hottest loads in them 2X, and then their loaded down. Use the AM barrel with ya want a "tad" more case life.


I had a split case (new case) the other day exactly like yours with WW new outta the sack. But was due to 'over pressure' in a load I fired.

The loads you describe are real common around here and else where in 180/200gr loadings in 10mm and They really aren't case spliters. "In this 'case' of yours, (haha) I can't tell ya cause I was not there. maybe a boo boo at the bench a flicker in the powder scale, Got one seated waaaay to short, a bad case....:dunno: You may never know.

OR... It may be that extremely squeezed down case (looks like to me at least in the pics on page 1) "bulding pressure", along with some other factors, especially IF you are having a tremendously tight friction fit and then a fairly tight taper crimp, and or if you are also seating a tad to deep, all this plus about one dozen other factors can cause problems.

If it were me, I would at least try another die, say RCBS carbide, and see if that doesn't stop the problem/s. I tell ya man, mine in that Lee, look to the nth degree just like those pictured on page one, and they were bad news... ;)


Good luck !








CM

CanyonMan
07-26-2012, 16:26
OK amigo, I went in the gun room and ran two OEM fired cases from my G20 through the Lee undersized die..

Here they are:


http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/cid__0726021718.jpg


Look familiar ?? haha They look EXACTLY like yours if I would have held the cell phone better i the low light I had the BELT would have been identical ! (pic was not that good)

i tell you, these cased just enough over pressure from such a tight fitting bullet (crazy sounding or not) they gave problems, and man will they roll around inside a stock Glock barrel ! PLUS the belt, as I said, (the magnum belt looking area) is a great place for blow outs.

Yes you can reload your brass from the oem... But get a better die arrangement and watch them "fit" better and work better.... ;)



Good luck






CM

alank2
07-26-2012, 16:59
Hi,

Even if your die is undersized, you are still blowing up NEW brass, and the brass isn't showing other telltale signs of overpressure. Something is very wrong here, and I think it may be your barrel. Either cracked, or oversize chamber.

Indeed, I would be very surprised that a little bit of undersizing (0.4165 vs 0.420" on NEW brass (0.0035) could be responsible for a case rip, but I suppose it is possible. Wouldn't the brass just expand until it hits the chamber wall and stop?

All this will probably be sticks to swallow with folks, but all this taking the huge buldge out, and shooting, and taking it out, and shooting, one day, WILL have a pay day. Like putting ammo in and out of a mag all the time and weakening the spring. One day the place the "buldge was ironed out several times" is going to land at the six 'oclock area in the OEM barrel, and blow !

I promise you !

You can't place that type strain even on brass with out making it weaker in that spot each time.

I couldn't agree more and I certainly don't want to remove the bulge or guppy from a piece of brass and keep using it again and again. Still, it sounds like people around here are getting a few reloads at least using the factory barrel with reasonable loads and that is what I am hoping to accomplish before considering an aftermarket barrel.

The loads you describe are real common around here and else where in 180/200gr loadings in 10mm and They really aren't case spliters. "In this 'case' of yours, (haha) I can't tell ya cause I was not there. maybe a boo boo at the bench a flicker in the powder scale, Got one seated waaaay to short, a bad case.... You may never know.

They were loaded this morning. I am used to powders that meter more uniformly than blue dot, I noticed that it is about +/- 0.1 grains compared to others I use which are a bit more uniform. My usual test is to operate the press in the way I normally would and measure 5 successive chargers, if I am going for 5.1 grains for example, then I want to see 5.1, 10.2, 15.3, 20.4, and finally 20.5. This method should ensure that I am within 0.02 of the charge weight I am going for and I can also see how consistent it is. With Blue dot this morning, it was like 10.0, 20.1, 30.0, 39.9, 50.0. The velocity was right on par with the first round and what I would have expected so I don't think it was an overcharge situation. I also checked each round with calipers and they were all 1.250 to 1.254.

So we have so far:

1. Sizing dies are sizing brass too small at 0.4165 to 0.417" and the vertical split is caused by it being undersized. I still wonder 0.003 is enough to cause a split like this.

2. Barrel issue of some sort. It looks good to me to look at, it really looks solid. The first case is uniformly expanded and fits and can easily rotate...

3. Brass issue. This one I am still wondering about. Especially since this happened to me one time a few years ago with some other Starline Nickel in 38 special. Could the nickel process do something to affect the brass?

Any ideas how I can test or eliminate any of these 3? I want to take baby steps now to figure this out...

One more thing I want to mention in case I didn't above - I have only used NEW cases so far.

Thanks,

Alan

dm1906
07-26-2012, 18:19
Hi,

By the way, the fired case that didn't rupture measures 0.424" at the case mouth, 0.428" in the middle, and 0.433" at the most ballooned part. It doesn't seem to be bulged on any one particular side or another, it is concentric.

Thanks,

Alan

OK, then. I didn't have any similar rounds fired from my G20, with OEM barrel and spring (long time since I've used them), so I fired a couple I had loaded. 180 gr. LTCHC (.401"), 11 gr. BD, new DT brass, CCI 350, 1.260" COL. The components aren't the same, but pressure measurement is the goal, and this should provide that. It's my typical target round. I took a 2L pop bottle with me, filled with water and frozen (2 weeks @ -20F...very HARD). Had to shoot something, and I was feeling like a snowcone.

Anyhoo.....The measurements....
Mouth = .424"
Middle = .429/.430"
Bulge = .433"
Head = .420"
Snug going back into the barrel, but fits.

For comparison:
Same round through LWD barrel, 24# spring......
Mouth = .423"
Middle = .425"
Bulge = .427"
Head = .420"

Same round through Blackhawk....
Mouth = .423"
Middle = .425"
Bulge (area) = .426"
Head = .420"

After Lee sizer (not BB) = .417" (mouth to bulge area). There was no indication of a "step", or plowing like shown in your pics. Very smooth transition to the .420" web area.

Sound familiar?
Your chamber isn't your problem, unless both of ours are broken, near exactly the same.

Back to square one, sort of.

I hit the bottle about 1.5" from the bottom, and it went through-through (from about 30'). Bottom 1/2 of the bottle/ice entered the upper atmosphere (just followed the case). The remaining upper 1/2 turned to "snow", and remained in the bottle. That was the plan (just flip it over). Damn....Forgot the syrup!

CanyonMan
07-26-2012, 18:26
Hi,



Indeed, I would be very surprised that a little bit of undersizing (0.4165 vs 0.420" on NEW brass (0.0035) could be responsible for a case rip, but I suppose it is possible. Wouldn't the brass just expand until it hits the chamber wall and stop?



I couldn't agree more and I certainly don't want to remove the bulge or guppy from a piece of brass and keep using it again and again. Still, it sounds like people around here are getting a few reloads at least using the factory barrel with reasonable loads and that is what I am hoping to accomplish before considering an aftermarket barrel.



They were loaded this morning. I am used to powders that meter more uniformly than blue dot, I noticed that it is about +/- 0.1 grains compared to others I use which are a bit more uniform. My usual test is to operate the press in the way I normally would and measure 5 successive chargers, if I am going for 5.1 grains for example, then I want to see 5.1, 10.2, 15.3, 20.4, and finally 20.5. This method should ensure that I am within 0.02 of the charge weight I am going for and I can also see how consistent it is. With Blue dot this morning, it was like 10.0, 20.1, 30.0, 39.9, 50.0. The velocity was right on par with the first round and what I would have expected so I don't think it was an overcharge situation. I also checked each round with calipers and they were all 1.250 to 1.254.

So we have so far:

1. Sizing dies are sizing brass too small at 0.4165 to 0.417" and the vertical split is caused by it being undersized. I still wonder 0.003 is enough to cause a split like this.

2. Barrel issue of some sort. It looks good to me to look at, it really looks solid. The first case is uniformly expanded and fits and can easily rotate...

3. Brass issue. This one I am still wondering about. Especially since this happened to me one time a few years ago with some other Starline Nickel in 38 special. Could the nickel process do something to affect the brass?

Any ideas how I can test or eliminate any of these 3? I want to take baby steps now to figure this out...

One more thing I want to mention in case I didn't above - I have only used NEW cases so far.

Thanks,

Alan






Alan, you may very well have had an over charged load. :dunno:

Let's look at you list of number 1-3:


1). Sizing dies are sizing brass too small at 0.4165 to 0.417" and the vertical split is caused by it being undersized. I still wonder 0.003 is enough to cause a split like this.

Alan, it most certainly can cause that split. More than likely an over charge though or a bad piece of brass... (I will be repeating myself later).

Unless I am waaay wrong here, you are experiencing some 'really tight' friction fit in those cases, (tight is great, but not when it takes 50 whacks to pull the bullet, "seriously" mine is that way, the Lee I dumped) looking at the major buldge you have at the bottom of the bullet in the pics way up top post of yours here, right ?. Yes, that buldge is NOT abnormal in hand loading as you know. But looking at those pics with the split case the loaded rounds look just like mine did with that lousy lee (way to much) undersized die. Tight as heck seating aren't they ?

Try to pull one with a 'Kinetic bullet puller', it will either break the puller, or take (seriously) 40/50 whacks on the floor to get that bullet out, even before you crimp it !

So, yes "pressure."



2). Barrel issue of some sort. It looks good to me to look at, it really looks solid. The first case is uniformly expanded and fits and can easily rotate...

Alan, the barrel fit will be really loose and sloppy with those cases we're talking about (before firing) squeezed way down the way they are, I know ! haha. Do this. Take a piece of unfired new brass, and see how it fits into your chamber, as compared to the one you "sized down" with that die of yours.

Like dm1906 told ya, "i agree with him" I doubt it is your barrel... BUT.

If your gun was made within the last three years and the chamber is really bad sloppy, call Glock and demand a new barrel... 'I did." I called and got the general manager on the phone and gave him all the saami specs for the camber in every detail and he told the telephone tech, 'that was trying to blow me off, 'that I was right' , and send me a new barrel. This was a couple years ago with a G30... Shoots like a champ and 'tighter chamber'.

BUT, for now, what your dies are doing to the brass is my first concern. Play with that first, by (sorry) getting another brand die, ( I strongly suggest an RCBS carbide) and see how that works in the chamber you now have compared to the die you are NOW using.. A tad costly at 40.00 but amigo, I can tell ya, looking at your 'magnum belt appearance' on the brass web, you need to dump that sizer die man.

If even in that, your brass wallows around like a straw in a drain pipe, then deal with the barrel ! ;)



3).. Brass issue. This one I am still wondering about. Especially since this happened to me one time a few years ago with some other Starline Nickel in 38 special. Could the nickel process do something to affect the brass?


Well, as I believe it was 'Shadow' who told you, "brass can some times do this, even new brass.." ( I "paraphrased" Shadow's statement) But any brand brass, like anything else, can just have a 'weak spot', manufacture defect !

But I am still standing on two things going by both your pictures of 'empty and loaded' and the split.. The way to under size die, and or you boo booed and dumed to much powder there.. (which i doubt), and or a bad piece of brass... I am still standing on the waay to undersized die problem, NO matter "what blew the brass" that die is bad news and one day those cases are going to blow at the top rim of that belt....


One way to settle it. New die. If that ain't it (and I think it is) then get with Glock for a new barrel. If it comes to that ( and i do NOT think it will) PM me and I wil get you real detailed sammi specs from a friend of mine that works for the saami industry. That is where i get my good info, is from him ;)


I couldn't agree more and I certainly don't want to remove the bulge or guppy from a piece of brass and keep using it again and again. Still, it sounds like people around here are getting a few reloads at least using the factory barrel with reasonable loads and that is what I am hoping to accomplish before considering an aftermarket barrel.



Right. It is not a revolver it is a GLOCK barrel semi-auto !

This especially in 10mm, with a few different things happening like we are talking about with you here, can by sizing and resizing stouter loads working that brass so much it's going to , as I said before, end up at the six o clock area again in that oem barrel and bam !

I am NOT trying to be a wize butt, but I been to TWO different schools for "Metallurgy," in the past years. One for training to find weak spots and, (long story) in oil field drill pipe/stems and other oil field related components.

The other was Oklahoma City Horse shoeing school. I had to learn almost more there than the other to make corrective shoes, and aluminum race plates for race horses, etc, plus the drag cars we have run in the past. Man we had to understand STRESS in metal on this one in every aspect.

Said all that humbly to say... Stress in metal or humans will cause an explosion, when all things line up just right. As in life, we can run around in great stress for a loooong time, but finally POW. There goes the heart or an organ etc..

Same with the drill pipe, horse shoes, drag car frames and engine componets etc, or BRASS cases haha.

Work it back and forth enough and I assure you, even if we've gotten by with it a good while, it is a dangerous bad habit.

Revolvers work on a different principle and ya got far more room to last your brass...



Well, this is my take and suggestion from what I hear and see, FWIW. Hope this helps some way for you amigo. I don't know it all... For sure, but I picked up a thing or two every now and then. ;) Let's see , what were they now ! :dunno: ha.


(i do not spell check.. ha)



Let us know pard !













CM

alank2
07-26-2012, 18:45
Hi,

Anyhoo.....The measurements....
Mouth = .424"
Middle = .429/.430"
Bulge = .433"
Head = .420"
Snug going back into the barrel, but fits.

Your chamber isn't your problem, unless both of ours are broken, near exactly the same.


Our fired brass size is near identical. I could be wrong, but I just don't think it is the barrel. It looks absolutely solid on the inside and out other than the mark from the case rupture.

Your sizer is also sizing back to right near mine too.

Tight as heck seating aren't they ?

They actually don't feel too bad on seating, but I agree with you, sometimes you end up with so much case bullet tension that you can forget about pulling. I guess I never though you can have too much case neck tension and that it would affect pressure in a serious way.

Alan, the barrel fit will be really loose and sloppy with those cases we're talking about (before firing) squeezed way down the way they are, I know ! haha. Do this. Take a piece of unfired new brass, and see how it fits into your chamber, as compared to the one you "sized down" with that die of yours.

The cases do seem like they are swimming in there. You can freely move it in all directions, sized or unsized.

call Glock and demand a new barrel... 'I did." I called and got the general manager on the phone and gave him all the saami specs for the camber in every detail and he told the telephone tech, 'that was trying to blow me off, 'that I was right' , and send me a new barrel. This was a couple years ago with a G30... Shoots like a champ and 'tighter chamber'.

I really like this idea - I've emailed Glock and they told me the measurements I provided them were in spec.

BUT, for now, what your dies are doing to the brass is my first concern. Play with that first, by (sorry) getting another brand die,

I ordered a Lee Deluxe set to see how I like it compared the Redding I have. I can return the Redding set and it may come to that. Out of curiosity, what does your RCBS size a case to?

Well, as I believe it was 'Shadow' who told you, "brass can some times do this, even new brass.." ( I "paraphrased" Shadow's statement) But any brand brass, like anything else, can just have a 'weak spot', manufacture defect !

At first I wasn't thinking about the brass, but I had the same thing happen to me in a revolver with 38 special starline nickel brass and it was an odd experience that Starline said the brass wasn't right. I keep thinking of other expanded brass I've seen including 9mm stuff shot it subguns and how it balloons to an insane look but yet doesn't burst open and it really makes me question the brass. If the brass were more plyable, would it have creased in my early pictures or reformed?

Thanks the help and advice everyone!!

Alan

CanyonMan
07-26-2012, 19:02
Hi,



Our fired brass size is near identical. I could be wrong, but I just don't think it is the barrel. It looks absolutely solid on the inside and out other than the mark from the case rupture.

Your sizer is also sizing back to right near mine too.



They actually don't feel too bad on seating, but I agree with you, sometimes you end up with so much case bullet tension that you can forget about pulling. I guess I never though you can have too much case neck tension and that it would affect pressure in a serious way.



The cases do seem like they are swimming in there. You can freely move it in all directions, sized or unsized.



I really like this idea - I've emailed Glock and they told me the measurements I provided them were in spec.



I ordered a Lee Deluxe set to see how I like it compared the Redding I have. I can return the Redding set and it may come to that. Out of curiosity, what does your RCBS size a case to?



At first I wasn't thinking about the brass, but I had the same thing happen to me in a revolver with 38 special starline nickel brass and it was an odd experience that Starline said the brass wasn't right. I keep thinking of other expanded brass I've seen including 9mm stuff shot it subguns and how it balloons to an insane look but yet doesn't burst open and it really makes me question the brass. If the brass were more plyable, would it have creased in my early pictures or reformed?

Thanks the help and advice everyone!!

Alan


Amigo, I got to hurry here as we actually have a storm with real RAIN coming !!!!! Man the ranch is dry as a bone, and this may help.

I don't have time to run figures at present, (as I just explained) But the LEE dies are what gave me the problem amigo, truy an RCBS, I don't care how dumb this sounds, It took me over a year to work all this out whith those two sizer dies... You may luckmout, I hope so. I have just shared with ya what I truly believe is the issue at this point. I stand to be very corrected.



dm1906 Is agood friend, and a good hombre, and he has good wisdom as well... Gave ya some good stuff.



But Do try the RCBS, as i said the LEE I tossed on the shelf to use no longer, uit gave me the bands at the bottom, perhaps you will be blessed with one that works right..


More later maybe, got to run fast here before the storm hits...


Bless ya



Good luck






CM

alank2
07-26-2012, 19:10
Hi,

Hope you get some good rain!

I found this thread from just a couple of months ago - that talks about case splits being COMMON especially in starline brass with heavy or medium loads:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1423459

Are other brands known for this? What about Winchester?

We'll see how the Lee die works when it gets here - I may have to try a RCBS die...

Thanks,

Alan

CanyonMan
07-26-2012, 19:32
Hi,

Hope you get some good rain!

I found this thread from just a couple of months ago - that talks about case splits being COMMON especially in starline brass with heavy or medium loads:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1423459

Are other brands known for this? What about Winchester?

We'll see how the Lee die works when it gets here - I may have to try a RCBS die...

Thanks,

Alan


Thanks ! Got to run again.. Just thought of something..

you said..

They actually don't feel too bad on seating, but I agree with you, sometimes you end up with so much case bullet tension that you can forget about pulling. I guess I never though you can have too much case neck tension and that it would affect pressure in a serious way.

As i said it is good to have a nice snug fit, BUT when they are like 'your brass' (with the band at bottom) I am tellin ya bro, you seat them deeper than 1.260 with your "particular" squeezed down brass from that die, and you got "pressure"



Wish I could stay, had a thought and popped in a sec and did not want to forget... Gotta run here before storm hits ! Things to be done !







CM

Fire_Medic
07-26-2012, 20:25
Alan,

Have you backed off the seating die as we discussed?

I havent seen you mention that yet. Your die set came with instructions, and in there is a white card with green lettering that explains the caution to take with the combo die sets.

I still think this is your issue, especially now after you talking about how tight the bullets are in there and the puller not getting them out.

FM

SDGlock23
07-26-2012, 20:27
Hope your Lee die set treats you better, mine have been great. I used mine a lot as well as Dillon dies. I also got one of those Lee Bulge Buster kits, and it works very well...although I shot many 10mm and .40 rounds through the years without one, it does a great job de-bulging the rest of the brass the Lee resizer can't reach.

I have some Top Brass that I've found to split like yours above (too brittle?). I would guess here that your issue is two fold, your dies and your brass. I've not used Starline nickle plated, but have had no issues with the Starline brass, so you might want to look into switching.

alank2
07-26-2012, 21:01
Have you backed off the seating die as we discussed?

I was going to do that, but I forgot until the rounds were already done this morning. I haven't tried to pull any yet, but I've 18 to pull. We'll see if I have enough bullet to grab with the collet puller or if I'll have to use the kinetic one.

Please tell me how you think raising the seating die will affect things - I checked for an instruction card, but all I found was a rifle and handgun die set and also a taper crimp and profile crimp instructions. I read through them but didn't see any warning (unless I missed it).

Hope your Lee die set treats you better, mine have been great. I used mine a lot as well as Dillon dies. I also got one of those Lee Bulge Buster kits, and it works very well...although I shot many 10mm and .40 rounds through the years without one, it does a great job de-bulging the rest of the brass the Lee resizer can't reach.

I have some Top Brass that I've found to split like yours above (too brittle?). I would guess here that your issue is two fold, your dies and your brass. I've not used Starline nickle plated, but have had no issues with the Starline brass, so you might want to look into switching.

I could be wrong, but from the thread I posted in #64, it looks like this type of split is pretty common with Starline brass and OEM barrels. I'm not trying to pick on Starline here, but I'm getting the feeling that it is more brittle than other brands given that I don't see as many posts about other brands splitting as often. One post mentioned 10 out of 1000. With a better supported barrel, the brass isn't pushed as hard and Starline may be every bit as good as other brands and much better in price.

I am very tempted to pick up some Winchester brass and load it using my existing Redding dies as a simple test to see if it differs...

Thanks,

Alan

dm1906
07-26-2012, 21:02
dm1906 Is agood friend, and a good hombre, and he has good wisdom as well... Gave ya some good stuff.



But Do try the RCBS, as i said the LEE I tossed on the shelf to use no longer, uit gave me the bands at the bottom, perhaps you will be blessed with one that works right..


More later maybe, got to run fast here before the storm hits...


Bless ya



Good luck






CM

Thanks for the kind words, CM. I didn't suggest he not try an RCBS die. He has a replacement Lee die coming, and the one he was using is obviously flawed, in some way. If his condition doesn't change, then I would suggest another brand, as well. I use RCBS, Lee, and all rest, depending on the caliber. The RCBS die, unless it's a "custom grind", will be the same size as the Lee, or should be (they claim the same spec, off the shelf). I've had some bad RCBS dies over the years, and some bad Lees (more bad Lyman than any, but Lyman are good, when they're not bad). I'm just now retiring a Lee .45ACP die I've used for near 25 years, and about 60K through it (best guess, probably closer to 100K). I'm not pitching Lee, just saying one bad die by one individual isn't remarkable.

Anyway, I think he's working two problems here. The case split was with new brass. That's a problem in and of itself, and the die hadn't touched it yet. It's looking more and more like he got a load of bad brass. At the same time, there's no way anyone (in his right mind) would try to use brass looking like what he sized. My brass, measured to be nearly identical to his, come out of the die with just the slightest hint of a transition from bottom of the die stroke to the web. Nothing remotely resembling a magnum rifle band. I have seen this with other calibers, but for different reasons. You may have had a bad die, as well. That's only a few I've heard of, not including mine. I'm sure there a lot more, but this is a large community and the statistics say so. It can happen, just like with RCBS or any of the other big names. The Lee pistol dies I've used have generally been excellent, and at least on par with the other brand-name dies (not including specialties), and better than some. I have a bunch of Lee rifle dies and they're OK, but prefer others for most. RCBS does make excellent neck sizers, though.

Take care, friend.

CanyonMan
07-26-2012, 21:03
Hi,

I moved your reply from the other thread to this one...

Here is what they look like after resizing.

http://home.earthlink.net/~alank2/brasssize.jpg

Thanks,

Alan



Alan,

Guys , got to call it a night here for me... But a picture is worth a thousand words ... Alan, your brass is sized way to tight. The bullets are seated to deep and to tightly. the bands on the bottom of the cases will bust I assure you.

My Lee sizer die did this as I showed you in my (poor cell pic I did for ya).


MINE...

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab256/yrag5951/stuff%20to%20share/cid__0726021718.jpg

Because of this, pressures went up. This and seating to deep with these BD loads are a mess looking to happen my amigo.

Plus the re-working of the brass in a semi auto "especially" and in a Glock OEM "especially, running hot loads is putting a really weak stress spot on that buldged area every time you resize it down. Because of the nature of the size of the buldge it makes the sizing, re-sizing even worse in these type guns, with these type loads..... One day !

Don't make it complicated.. ;) It is a matter of a new die, watch your COAL, "go by the load data book" for the bullet and powder charge being used and the COAL they say to use with that bullet and primer and powder charge... It is the book for a reason ! ;)

No reason you should not be great, if ya follow these simple steps.


Hope the new die works for ya my friend. I feel for ya. I been there and done that.. Not being smart. I still reccomend the RCBS sizer die for the 10mm. You try these things and then decide. I'm sure you'll be fine. These are meant to be suggestions based on my experience with the same issue.

Unless you use an AM barrel, no matter what others may do, I do encourage you to only use your hottest loads a couple times in that OEM barrel, per piece of brass, then go down in the loading of them if your going to stay with the stock barrel. Again amigo, this ain't a revolver, and it ain't even a greatly supported semi auto to begin with so use sense and stay safe with it all.. ;)



Bless ya!

I'm confident you will do well... Be encouraged ! :wavey:



P>S> We did not get the rain at all... AS usual, it went around us. About 10/12 years with hardly a rain, and over a year now with none at all. The ranch could be called "gone with the wind." Now if we just get through summer with no fires !!







CM

CanyonMan
07-26-2012, 21:15
Thanks for the kind words, CM. I didn't suggest he not try an RCBS die. He has a replacement Lee die coming, and the one he was using is obviously flawed, in some way. If his condition doesn't change, then I would suggest another brand, as well. I use RCBS, Lee, and all rest, depending on the caliber. The RCBS die, unless it's a "custom grind", will be the same size as the Lee, or should be (they claim the same spec, off the shelf). I've had some bad RCBS dies over the years, and some bad Lees (more bad Lyman than any, but Lyman are good, when they're not bad). I'm just now retiring a Lee .45ACP die I've used for near 25 years, and about 60K through it (best guess, probably closer to 100K). I'm not pitching Lee, just saying one bad die by one individual isn't remarkable.

Anyway, I think he's working two problems here. The case split was with new brass. That's a problem in and of itself, and the die hadn't touched it yet. It's looking more and more like he got a load of bad brass. At the same time, there's no way anyone (in his right mind) would try to use brass looking like what he sized. My brass, measured to be nearly identical to his, come out of the die with just the slightest hint of a transition from bottom of the die stroke to the web. Nothing remotely resembling a magnum rifle band. I have seen this with other calibers, but for different reasons. You may have had a bad die, as well. That's only a few I've heard of, not including mine. I'm sure there a lot more, but this is a large community and the statistics say so. It can happen, just like with RCBS or any of the other big names. The Lee pistol dies I've used have generally been excellent, and at least on par with the other brand-name dies (not including specialties), and better than some. I have a bunch of Lee rifle dies and they're OK, but prefer others for most. RCBS does make excellent neck sizers, though.

Take care, friend.



Hey pard,

Well trouble with all the posting is some times we're all posting at the same time, so we don't see what the other guy says until it is to late as you and I and fire medic and I have done a couple times here tonight. PLUS, I am so tired I'm about to drop ! ha :faint:

I truly inderstand anything can go bad.. Not picking on LEE at all. Not at all.. I have a few lee dies , work great. Just talking about my lee vs his whatever, that was doing the same thing and causing this problem.. a new die will change all this and him stretching out the COAL with those powder charges... ;)

I even failed to mention in my post/s that I (after trashin a for sure BAD Lee sizer die) had RCBS make my die .1K under size.

Now if you think about that for a moment and take into account my brass looks el perfecto NOW, and my die is .1K undersize... And the Lee I had, and the die this boy (OP) is using put the magnum looking bands on the brass and squeezed it down so tight, can you imagine how BAD his is, If I am FINE with mine now at .1k undersize ? :wow:

Well I hear ya amigo.
I am just noddin off here.


Good stuff !
Please stay safe !











CM

Any Cal.
07-26-2012, 21:26
I just recently had a box of Federal AE brass that had several split on the first firing, and several split on the second. The ones that didn't split seem to be fine. A few would look good, but then would split in the size die. It didn't matter much, just meant that I didn't get full use out of the brass. At this point I chalk the vertical splits up to bad lots of brass. Other brass going through the same load, dies, and barrel have no problem.

alank2
07-26-2012, 21:30
Hi,

Anyway, I think he's working two problems here. The case split was with new brass. That's a problem in and of itself, and the die hadn't touched it yet.

Actually it had, I always resize brass (even new). See the picture in post #51 and look at the base of the two unshot rounds - no banding in the bottom of them and that was resized with the Redding die.

It's looking more and more like he got a load of bad brass. At the same time, there's no way anyone (in his right mind) would try to use brass looking like what he sized.

I agree completely; I sure can't see anyone trying to use brass with a crease like that on it.

My brass, measured to be nearly identical to his, come out of the die with just the slightest hint of a transition from bottom of the die stroke to the web.

This is what makes me question the brass. The crease, the side split in a new case with a medium level commonly used load. I'm not saying the Redding isn't sizing a bit aggressively, or that the OEM barrel doesn't allow a bit of bulge, but others have used the OEM barrel and others have had their brass sized to 0.417 and they have not seen these issues that I know of.

I also don't think there is an overpressure situation either because there are no other factors. Velocity isn't higher. CCI 300 Primer isn't flattened at all. It didn't feel hot. I've shot a lot of ammo with a similar tight look around the bullet without any issues.

I'm going to try some Winchester 10mm brass and I'm debating whether to load them the SAME way to see if I get similar results or not.

Thanks,

Alan

WeeWilly
07-26-2012, 21:44
I apologize if this was brought up, but I am a little short on time tonight and some of the posts above are really long...

I have had regular Starline brass split after the first loading. Not often but it does happen.

robert91922
07-27-2012, 06:03
Hi,

Well...I'm starting to get frustrated and beginning to question the brass...

I loaded up 20 more rounds:
10 of Blue Dot 10gr for 180gr GDHP, CCI 300, 1.250 oal, new starline nickel
10 of Accurate #7 9.6gr for 200gr XTP, CCI 300, 1.250 oal, new starline nickel

Only fired 2 rounds before STOPPING:

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ealank2/g20brass.jpg

First round 1116 fps, stopped, picked up case, looked pretty good other than the ballooning which didn't even seem to bad.

Second case 1136 fps, stopped picked up case, noticed the large vertical split in it and decided not to shoot the remaining 18 rounds...

Not a hot load, it chrono'd at 1136 fps, but split nasty. I am really starting to wonder about Starline Nickel brass. I had this happen once a few years ago with Starline Nickel and 38 special - sent the brass to Starline and they said the brass was bad.

What do you guys think??? I gotta go and see if I can polish out the burn mark in my G20 chamber.... :(

Thanks,

Alan
Alank2, your rounds seem to be overcrimped at least what I see on these pictures. Take an electronic digital caliper and measure a loaded round at the upper edge where case ends. If it's less than 0.419 I suppose it's overcrimped and you should adjust your crimping die to 0.420 (+ - 0.001). Worth a try IMO.
Or better said, the number you get at the middle of bullet seated should be the same at the end of case. Don't go under it, you'll get nothing but overpressure and bullet jackets scratched, maybe damaged.

alank2
07-27-2012, 19:29
Hi,

Crimps measure 0.419. I got some Winchester brass tonight to test with.

I'm not going to be able to pull the 18 rounds, there isn't enough for the collet to grab, and I've never had much luck with the inertia type.

I'm going to load the same 20 rounds again, but this time in Winchester new brass and see if I get different results...

Thanks,

Alan

_The_Shadow
07-27-2012, 19:51
If you have the kinetic type puller, you can use a piece of 4x4 wooden block and rap it on the end grain. Don't be afraid to make a good solid rap to get the bullet moving some. Lighter bullets require more energy to get them out. As the bullet moves and see it coming outward, you can tap a little lighter to tap it out.

With bullets the like soft points you can place a piece of paper towel in the bottom of the pullet to minimize distortion to the tip of the bullets.

Good luck!

alank2
07-28-2012, 09:30
Hi,

I've never had much luck with the kinetic puller, but I'll try the end of wood method. I've been trying the concrete floor...

UPDATE - I reloaded the same 20 test rounds last night this time using Winchester brass. I did not change the dies or anything related to them. Sizing went fine with no marks. Priming felt much easier. The case retracted off of the expander much easier. They just loaded easier.

I took them to the range and fired them all without any issues. I have not measured the fired cases yet, they are in the tumbler getting cleaned up. The Lee dies/bulge buster is arriving today (I hope) so I am going to run these 20 winchester cases through the 4 possibilities (redding only, lee only, bulge buster + redding, and bulge buster + lee) to see the results.

I wonder if the Starline cases are a bad lot and/or have the nickel plating too thick or something else. It certainly in my mind seems to be the cases, but I won't know for sure until I size these fired ones to see what they look like!

Thanks,

Alan

alank2
07-28-2012, 12:19
Hi Everyone,

I measured all 20 fired Winchester cases and at the widest part they measure 0.433"

I put half of them though the Lee Bulge Buster and this brought their widest part down to 0.423" - they do now fit the case gauge. The bulge buster is pretty slick I have to admit, it worked very well and was easy to use.

The Lee carbide sizer die is 0.001 larger (0.417") than the Redding, but the Redding is able to size 1/16" lower on the case and has a smoother transition where the sizing stops.

I believe it is how low the Redding die can go that causes the creasing. I had a crease on a Winchester case that wasn't run through the bulge buster and also a VERY light crease on a Winchester case that was run through the bulge buster.

The Lee did not crease any cases, bulge busted or not, and again I would attribute this to not being able to size as deep and perhaps not sizing as tight (0.001 larger).

So what do I take from this?

Creasing - not the fault of the Starline brass although it creased worse than the Winchester did. I think it is a matter of sizing too low (I've always sized as far low as the shell plate would allow) and the slightly tighter sizing of the Redding die.

Splitting - I'm putting the blame on Starline brass for this. I've read a thread where a few people mentioned the exact same thing with Starline (mid case vertical split) and that along with the issues that Starline vendors (Double Tap, Underwood) have had with bad brass lots over the years has me thinking that Starline needs to improve their QC. I don't want to get brass and think it might be good or it might not be. Perhaps this is a combination of sizing to 0.416, nickel plating thickness, chamber size, and brass that is more brittle than I'd like and doesn't stretch as much before splitting.

Here is where I am going to go from here:

I'm going to send my nickel into Starline for testing and ask them to replace it with some non nickel in replacement for test. If any of that splits like this on the first load, I'm done with Starline.

I am going to try to take a new approach to sizing with the 10mm that involves sizing the brass the least amount possible while obtaining the necessary bullet tension. My plan:

New brass doesn't need bulge busting (it fits into the case gauge and through the FCD so it wouldn't do anything to try).

I am going to use either the Lee or Redding sizer to size the top of the brass only to the point it needs to be for case tension.

This works the brass the least and still ensures it will fit the chamber along with bullet case tension.

Not sure which dies I'm going to keep just yet...

If I can't get at least 4 medium level loadings with this plan, I guess I'll have to look at an aftermarket barrel...

Thanks,

Alan

Taterhead
07-28-2012, 12:32
Alan,

Those vertical splits are usually defective brass. Nickel-plated brass tends to be harder, in my experience. I have had one split from mouth to base just going through my resizer.

Starline is excellent brass, but occasionally they have an improperly annealed case or two. It happens to the best of them. Regular brass holds up better than nickel in my experience. Nickel brass makes sense for anti-corrosion and slick-feeding properties in a SD load. But for everyday reloading, I greatly prefer regular Starline brass.

What CM and others have said about dies; I also agree with. You are starting with a narrower diameter. That will cause more work on the brass when it fireforms in the chamber. That narrower diameter also causes a reduced interior case volume and higher initial pressure. Combine that with brass that is not properly annealed, and you get splits.

I would switch to regular brass, and to another sizing die. Even with properly annealed brass, your dies are a bit narrow. I personally have been fond of the RCBS carbide die that I have. It sizes pretty low on the case. Thousands of good-to-go reloads with Starline brass and the stock barrel.

alank2
07-31-2012, 09:28
Hi,

Starline is going to swap the nickel brass for regular brass so I'll see how the regular brass does.

Thanks,

Alan

nickE10mm
07-31-2012, 09:45
Hi,

Starline is going to swap the nickel brass for regular brass so I'll see how the regular brass does.

Thanks,

Alan

Awesome, glad they are taking care of it.

walrus108
07-31-2012, 17:52
Here is a photo of one of mine after sizing in my Dillon sizing die. The dimension prior to sizing at the widest part of the bulge is .434".

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/Bill_Steele/003-7.jpg
Mine look like this with Lee carbide and stock G20sf barrel.

Is this considered normal? This post has me really looking at my brass! :wow:

walrus108
07-31-2012, 18:41
In fact, I've decided to post a pic of mine.

On the left is one of my worst bluged cases I can find in my once fired brass shot from stock G20sf barrel. This is all top brass from BVAC bulk 180gr@1200fps.

The middle is a resized one just like it, showing a definite ring on the bottom. I think the difference is there are no square corners or abrupt changes of direction where the die stopped.

The right one is a finished reloaded of these brass. .421 on the mouth.

Do these look alright to you all? I haven't reloaded shot brass much yet in 10mm and these pics got me wondering, just what is right/normal?

I figured that at worst, I could show what brass is definitely (or not?) acceptable.

BTW I am using these brass on my LCT with the 4-piece Kempf die set to load 150gr nosler 1.255" with 7.0 up to 7.5g Unique, for accuracy only. Nosler list this as "the most accurate load tested", and I want to see.

alank2
07-31-2012, 18:44
Hi walrus108,

Those look fine to me. The Lee die I picked up doesn't size as low on the brass and doesn't cause the issue. I've just always been accustomed to sizing as low as possible, but the Redding allows too low.

Thanks,

Alan

WeeWilly
07-31-2012, 20:06
Mine look like this with Lee carbide and stock G20sf barrel.

Is this considered normal? This post has me really looking at my brass! :wow:

It is normal for my brass sized with my Dillon die. The brass works fine in my Stock G20 and G29 barrels as well as my G20 KKM barrel.

alank2
08-27-2012, 11:37
Hi,

Well, I'm almost back in business. Starline swapped the nickel out for regular brass and Redding swapped the die out for one that is 0.001 larger. I can't complain about either company as they both addressed my issues. I'm waiting on a Storm Lake barrel which may be another 4-5 weeks or so, but once that arrives, I'm going to start loading for the G20 part two - hopefully this time it will go better.

Thanks,

Alan

alank2
09-15-2012, 15:28
Hi,

My 10mm saga continues. Barrel arrived from Storm Lake yesterday and it looks great. I really like the black finish on it. The chamber on it is very tight, tighter than my Dillon case gauge. I can't complain about how the brass comes out of it as it is still small enough to fit in the case gauge, but it only feeds about 50% of the time. It always hangs up the same way - cartridge is about 35% in the chamber and it wedges itself still at the feeding angle. If I pull and lock the slide back, the cartridge is just a little bit stuck. You can give it a little push and dislodge it however. The trick of slightly pulling the slide back and letting it slam forward would sometimes finish loading the round too. I guess I need to send it to SL for a little polishing...

Thanks,

Alan

walrus108
09-15-2012, 15:52
Sorry to hear your Storm lake barel didn't work so well. I went to an IDPA comp last weekend, and the only failures I saw were Glocks with shiny steel (obviously aftermarket) barrels.

I have since measured my G20 SF chamber. The widest point I can find is .428. My G22 barrel circa 1996 measures .431. Not much brass unsupported on the ramp either on the G20. It seems that Glock has increased the chamber support considerably, at least on very new glocks. My wife just bought a G27 gen 4. I'll have to check out her chamber and compare it to my old G22.

I'd be interested on what your SL barrel measures when their done with it. And also how they take care of you. I'm considering buying a slightly longer SL barrel for my G20.

alwaysshootin
09-15-2012, 19:42
Hi,

My 10mm saga continues. Barrel arrived from Storm Lake yesterday and it looks great. I really like the black finish on it. The chamber on it is very tight, tighter than my Dillon case gauge. I can't complain about how the brass comes out of it as it is still small enough to fit in the case gauge, but it only feeds about 50% of the time. It always hangs up the same way - cartridge is about 35% in the chamber and it wedges itself still at the feeding angle. If I pull and lock the slide back, the cartridge is just a little bit stuck. You can give it a little push and dislodge it however. The trick of slightly pulling the slide back and letting it slam forward would sometimes finish loading the round too. I guess I need to send it to SL for a little polishing...

Thanks,

Alan

I've only had experience with storm lake barrels for my G30, and G21. When they say match grade chambers, they are serious! My reloads, in 45, have been reloaded 15+ times, and SL barrels did not care to feed some, at all. After contacting SL, they said they would ream the chamber open slightly, at no cost. After shooting the factory barrels from Glock, decided, after market weren't necessary shooting lead in 45. Both barrels were sold!!!!!!!!!

alank2
09-16-2012, 19:24
Hi,

Well I decided to go ahead and polish the feed ramp edge and chamber a bit with flitz polish to slicken things up. I made up some dummy rounds (no powder or primer) and began hand cycling and the polishing sure seemed to make a difference.

I noticed that most of my hand loads drop into the chamber with the same noise as I hear when popping them into the case gauge and they fall right out when tipping the barrel over, but still a few seem to get a snug fit right at the case mouth. These same rounds fall into and out of my Dillon case gauge and I applied a little more crimp on them and they then do the same in the barrel.

I'm going to give it one more shot at the range to see how it does before sending it to SL, maybe it will work great now.

Do you guys think I should pickup a box of CCI blazer to test with as well? All my handloads fits the case gauge I have and are 1.250" oal, but I wonder if I should try some factory rounds as a test too.

Thanks,

Alan

alank2
09-17-2012, 18:49
Hi,

SUCCESS tonight. Finally. I shot 35 rounds (from the same batch that failed on Saturday) and all went perfectly. Nice even ejection, beautiful barely expanded brass, no feeding issues, excellent accuracy, consistent lockup.

Thanks,

Alan

Any Cal.
09-17-2012, 23:02
In my mind that is the optimum outcome! I don't mind problems when they can be found and corrected. Now if you have any issues down the road you will know what to look for and how to fix them. If you get real adventurous you can make all those components work with lead bullets.:-)

Chuck TX
09-18-2012, 09:54
I use both stock and aftermarket and yes I reload the cases! Never seen anything with a crease like you're resizing die is apparently doing. Wow!

This. Never seen anything that bad and I reload 'em 'til they die.

ModGlock17
09-18-2012, 15:34
This. Never seen anything that bad and I reload 'em 'til they die.

I guess the trick is to know when they'd die, before they do.

I had a repeatedly used rifle case that got widened at the head that it had trouble loading onto a case holder. Close inspection indicated expansion. Toss it, before it tosses you.

Repeated expansion due to firing, then resizing of the neck will weaken the metal. Metallurgy folks call it "metal fatigue", the kind of things that happen on airplanes over time.

Annealling helps soften the metal and extend case life, theoritically. But it's tough to do on short cases for handguns.

gator378
09-27-2012, 13:26
[QUOTE=alank2;19225186]Hi Everyone,


If you use a stock barrel, do you reload your brass?

I tried a few what I thought were 30K or lower pressure loads, and the result was 18 out of 20 cases so balooned that resizing them gives a sharp crease where the sizing die stops. I also had a pretty hefty gouge in the case rim.

Thanks,
Forget the stock barrel. On my G20 Glock replaced the first one under warranty it was so bad in Glock smiley department. The seond was not much better. Went Barsto about 8 or so years ago and never had a smiley since. I am not fond of Glock Barrels and will probably replace the one on G21 in the near future. Not a Glock barrel fan. Glock needs more work on barrels for high pressure loads

alank2
10-03-2012, 09:21
Hi,

Well guys, I have to tell you, my G20 has FINALLY gotten all the bugs worked out and is running great. I shot 51 more rounds on it yesterday and they all fired perfectly. Better than that, the brass comes out looking barely expanded using the Storm Lake barrel.

I'll be honest and say I don't know why anyone would deal with the stock barrel if they plan on reloading. IMHO it just isn't worth doing.

The more I shoot the G20, the more I love it. It really tames the recoil considering the energy/power factor. I was shooting it side by side with a 44mag Alaskan and despite the 11 oz heavier weight and that I was shooting 44spl (150 less fpe than the G20 loads I was shooting), the G20 was still more comfortable to shoot.

My final configuration:

Glock 20
Storm Lake factory length 10mm barrel (black QPQ)
BT guide rods Sta-Tite rod
ISMI 20# spring
Ameriglo classic sights (0.256" rear, 0.180" front)

I may try the 22# spring...

Thanks,

Alan

walrus108
10-03-2012, 20:20
Hi,

Well guys, I have to tell you, my G20 has FINALLY gotten all the bugs worked out and is running great. I shot 51 more rounds on it yesterday and they all fired perfectly. Better than that, the brass comes out looking barely expanded using the Storm Lake barrel.

I'll be honest and say I don't know why anyone would deal with the stock barrel if they plan on reloading. IMHO it just isn't worth doing.

The more I shoot the G20, the more I love it. It really tames the recoil considering the energy/power factor. I was shooting it side by side with a 44mag Alaskan and despite the 11 oz heavier weight and that I was shooting 44spl (150 less fpe than the G20 loads I was shooting), the G20 was still more comfortable to shoot.

My final configuration:

Glock 20
Storm Lake factory length 10mm barrel (black QPQ)
BT guide rods Sta-Tite rod
ISMI 20# spring
Ameriglo classic sights (0.256" rear, 0.180" front)

I may try the 22# spring...

Thanks,

Alan

Can you measure the chamber size at its widest point. I am curious what the difference would be. My very recent G20sf measures .428. My 1996 G22 measures .431. It seems that Glock may have tightened the chambers up quite a bit recently.

nickE10mm
10-03-2012, 21:21
Can you measure the chamber size at its widest point. I am curious what the difference would be. My very recent G20sf measures .428. My 1996 G22 measures .431. It seems that Glock may have tightened the chambers up quite a bit recently.

I can tell u that MY particular G20sf (recent gen 3) measures around .435-.436 if I recall correctly.