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beatcop
07-23-2012, 08:59
Has the latest vest wearing active shooter had an impact on your handgun choice?

1. Odds are this won't happen to me.
2. I'm getting a Five-Seven!
3. Worried that my .32/.380 may not be enough.
4. I need a vest

Ok, are you REALLY going to change your tactics, training, or equipment? ...or just avoid death traps?

hamster
07-23-2012, 09:21
To be completely honest, I don't think that I'd have been in the position to do anything other than try to help my wife and I escape.

Initially, I'd probably thought it was either some sort of movie publicity stunt, or perhaps a prank. Once I realized it was a real situation... I'm not sure how much I'd have been able to do with my lowly G27's 10 shots of .40 S&W in a smoke filled, dark room filled with hundreds of fleeing people. The odds of being able to safely take a shot would have been very slim.

I carry to protect myself and my family primarily. I'd like to think that if I were in a situation like what occurred in Aurora, CO I'd have the courage, skill and opportunity to do something about it, but realistically I know that is unlikely. CCW is most effective against common criminals and thugs... people with fear of death and normal mental functions. Crazed spree-killers are a whole different animal where luck plays a much bigger role than preparation can.

FireForged
07-23-2012, 09:32
As a citizen... nope, not in the least. I will continue to carry a jframe. If armor clad ninjas attack me, I can accept the fact that purhaps I am not prepared for that scenario.

cowboy1964
07-23-2012, 09:35
1. Odds are this won't happen to me. But it doesn't change my carry choices either way. If anything happens, my skill with 13 rounds of 124+P Gold Dots will be put to the test.

beatcop
07-23-2012, 09:39
-My p32 would probably not cut the mustard.
-Apathy will take over in a few months, but the 5-7 sounds appealing.
-time to watch for copycats looking for a "purpose" in life

Angry Fist
07-23-2012, 09:41
May not be enough, but I carry a FMJ reload in 10MM.

Lior
07-23-2012, 11:42
By the look of things, S&W will start making Model 500s in three shifts.

But for me, I just want to be as accurate as possible with my primary carry. Gas masks are not impervious to niners.

John Rambo
07-23-2012, 11:42
Has the latest vest wearing active shooter had an impact on your handgun choice?

1. Odds are this won't happen to me.
2. I'm getting a Five-Seven!
3. Worried that my .32/.380 may not be enough.
4. I need a vest

Ok, are you REALLY going to change your tactics, training, or equipment? ...or just avoid death traps?

1. Odds are it won't. And they're very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very good odds.

2. Good little gun. Might or might not have defeated his armor, we'd need to know more about it.

3. Just about any handgun wouldn't have been enough.

4. Vest wouldn't have helped given what he was firing.


So, no, it hasn't affected my choices at all. I realize that any pistol is a crappy manstopper to begin with - I'm under no delusions that anything is going to enable me to go up against a fully armored gunman with a rifle.

Caver 60
07-23-2012, 11:53
Got to agree with John R. Not going to change anything for me. Generally I go to extremes to try my best to avoid going anyplace where there might be danger. Haven't seen a movie at a theater in decades, don't attend sporting events etc.

I always carry my P3AT during almost all of my waking hours. Then its a Kahr 9 or 40, or at times a 10 plus 1 45ACP. Just depends.

If by chance I had been in that theater, I'd probably would have had the 45. But unless the guy walked by me within a very few feet, I'd have been ducking and seeking cover or running like the rest.

LoadToadBoss
07-23-2012, 11:58
As I evaluated what was known about the situation early on, I concluded that my PF-9 would be insufficient against an AR-15 with a 100-rd Beta Mag.

As one cop I know put it, "Your handgun is what you use to fight your way to your rifle." If you're already up against a rifle and you don't have access to one, then your options are conceal, cover and covertly exit. There's nothing wrong with a strategic withdrawal when faced with superior firepower.

FL Airedale
07-23-2012, 12:29
Does anyone know what kind of body armor the jerk was wearing? Standard police body armor won't be penetrated by handgun ammunition but the person shot will still have devastating blunt trauma injuries. Getting hit in the chest with a .40 would feel like someone hitting you with a hammer.

Not many people could stand too many shots like this.

This incident reminded me to do more practice on the double tap to the chest followed by one the head.

smokin762
07-23-2012, 12:35
But for me, I just want to be as accurate as possible with my primary carry. Gas masks are not impervious to niners.

:agree:

beatcop
07-23-2012, 12:45
It's tough to gear up for a "infantry" battle without adopting similiar firepower. At a minimum, a hi-cap is a must. 9mm is fine w/me.

Some guys are going to claim they are going to break out a freedom arms .22lr, but let's face it, you want to stack the deck in your favor.

jordankaden
07-23-2012, 16:28
I carry a G20.... I also stagger FMJ and hollow points.....In past training we practiced two to the chest and one to the head.... makes sure they are good and dead, but practice is not in any way reality... especially when there are several screaming people running around, between you and the suspect... a lot of "what if's".......

Angry Fist
07-23-2012, 16:31
I carry a G20.... I also stagger FMJ and hollow points.....In past training we practiced two to the chest and one to the head.... makes sure they are good and dead, but practice is not in any way reality... especially when there are several screaming people running around, between you and the suspect... a lot of "what if's".......
I don't know about staggering them in a handgun. Pump shotgun, yes. But 180 GD primary, 200 XTP secondary, and 200 FMJ last ditch for me.

Glock_9mm
07-23-2012, 16:36
I think the only thing that I will change is where I sit in the theater. By the aisle, more than half way up. I pray that there are no copycats.
Scott

dosei
07-23-2012, 18:24
Has the latest vest wearing active shooter had an impact on your handgun choice?

1. Odds are this won't happen to me.
2. I'm getting a Five-Seven!
3. Worried that my .32/.380 may not be enough.
4. I need a vest

Ok, are you REALLY going to change your tactics, training, or equipment? ...or just avoid death traps?

5. No changes required.

NEOH212
07-23-2012, 19:51
I'm not changing anything and if faced with this scenario, I'll do my best to stay alive.

Gunnut 45/454
07-23-2012, 22:32
Well he might have been armored up but correct me if I'm wrong LEO's getting hits on the vest does hurt quite alot and or breaks ribs etc. It may not kill but if it stops the fight long enough to put one in the head or disarm the perp! I guess the only change maybe more ammo?:whistling:

Shinesintx
07-23-2012, 23:59
I am gonna step up to a .40. I just dont feel comfortable with my .380 anymore.

Misty02
07-24-2012, 05:21
Well he might have been armored up but correct me if I'm wrong LEO's getting hits on the vest does hurt quite alot and or breaks ribs etc. It may not kill but if it stops the fight long enough to put one in the head or disarm the perp! I guess the only change maybe more ammo?:whistling:

I recall a video from a LEO that stayed in the fight after being shot several times with a .45. Among the many injuries was a shot and displaced jaw.

There are no guarantees, more than the type of injury we might be dealing with the will and pain tolerance of that particular individual. The only winning combination may be another individual(s) with greater will and determination.

.

vetmedglock30
07-24-2012, 09:04
Most of these shooters are cowards. Several have stopped the moment they meet resistance. The "Joker" want-to-be would not have had the skill to transition to a 2ndary with a week hand only. Any damage to this idiot would have sent him running. However, a determined terrorist is a totally different situation.

fuzzy03cls
07-24-2012, 12:03
5. No changes required.
X2

I find all these thread funny. Lets be honest....99% of you(includes me) guys would never engage a armed body armored nutjob. Certianly not with your little SD used handgun & 13-30 or so rds of ammo.

JW1178
07-24-2012, 12:54
Has the latest vest wearing active shooter had an impact on your handgun choice?

1. Odds are this won't happen to me.

Chances are the BG I might have to defend myself against won't even have his pants on right, let alone a vest.

2. I'm getting a Five-Seven!

Yup, I'm sure it was said before "If I wasn't for my tacti-cool t-shirt I was wearing I wouldn't be here right now"

3. Worried that my .32/.380 may not be enough.

Don't own one anyways and it's not enough to defend yourself against a nudist.

4. I need a vest.

No I don't, and I refuse to live like that.


Ok, are you REALLY going to change your tactics, training, or equipment? ...or just avoid death traps?

Perhaps I will practice more head shots. 2 to the chest, 1 to the head. Even if someone has on a vest, a double tap to the chest is going to probably put them down at least for a few seconds, that's where the one in the head comes in.

unit1069
07-24-2012, 14:21
Has the latest vest wearing active shooter had an impact on your handgun choice?

Option 1 for me. I'm not changing anything as I still think the odds of encountering a perp wearing full body armor is miniscule.

HKLovingIT
07-24-2012, 14:32
I'm not going to do anything different. I'll takes me chances. :wavey:

Gunnut 45/454
07-24-2012, 16:18
fuzzy03cls
Speak for yourself! If I'm in the kill box I'd rather go down with and empty mag or two , then a fully load weapon in a holster! :faint:

fuzzy03cls
07-24-2012, 16:47
There's a time to fight & then there just stupidity... Your in the 1% Have fun man.

robhic
07-24-2012, 16:51
I'm in the #1 category. Don't see a great chance of this because I rarely go out (retired homebody). But when I do leave my "Cocoon" :supergrin: I plan on carrying my standard EDC G26 with Winchester Golden Saber 124 +P JHP and hope for my (limited) skills to kick in. (And a bit of luck.)

I don't see me engaging unless I would have a high-probability shot at close range. I am not the hero type.

FL Airedale
07-24-2012, 18:51
ny. Lets be honest....99% of you(includes me) guys would never engage a armed body armored nutjob. Certianly not with your little SD used handgun & 13-30 or so rds of ammo.

True.

I'm not getting in a gun fight with anyone if I can avoid it. If I get cornered I'll fight back even if I'm outgunned.

1smoothredneck
07-24-2012, 19:23
I'm Buying stock in redbox......just sayin

GRT45
07-24-2012, 19:34
One thing I plan to do more often is carry my HD hand-held tac light with me while away from home. The following article made that suggestion and contains some other good advice I plan to keep in mind:

Navy SEAL Lessons Learned From Aurora Colorado (http://sofrep.com/9657/navy-seal-lessons-learned-aurora-colorado-survive/)

nikerret
07-24-2012, 19:42
My problem isn't with what I carry, it's that I sometimes don't carry.

I would feel greatly undergunned against the CO shooter with a .40 and several full magazines, but I am not going to have that, ever, while off-duty catching a flick.

Of course, I would feel even more undergunned with a .380 or a j-frame (.38 Special +P).

However, having any firearm is greatly preferred to having none.

I know I won't even carry a G27 when I'm kicking around in the hot summer. Thus far, I have been carrying my new 442 (j-frame). In winter, I might even carry a G23, but usually the G27. My guess is the 442 will be my off-duty gun, all the time.

On-duty, if I knew I was going into this situation, I would have my AR and enough magazines to give my beltt a good stretch.

Nothing changing, for me.

Angry Fist
07-24-2012, 19:46
:goodpost: Just because you have a gun, doesn't mean you have to shoot any given time **** goes down.

Bullwinkle J Moose
07-24-2012, 21:17
I started keeping an extra pistol/spare mag nearby, since the mob attacks that coincidentally... :whistling: ... happened right after the "Hang Zimmerman" movement ratcheted up the nation's level of racial strife. I will use my J frame to get to my spare if I have to and this latest scum changes nothing for me. I don't patronize businesses that feel their liability and/or leftist agenda is more important than my right to defend my life anyhow.

Berto
07-24-2012, 21:23
As a citizen... nope, not in the least. I will continue to carry a jframe. If armor clad ninjas attack me, I can accept the fact that purhaps I am not prepared for that scenario.

Me too. I carry bigger guns at times, but 95% it's a J frame.
I want it for personal protection, not suppressive fire tactics against active shooters.

youngbuck
07-24-2012, 23:51
I just got home from watching DKR at my local theater. I had my Bodyguard .380 and took an extra mag. Logically I don't expect those 13 rds to outgun tear gas followed by a beta mag. I couldnt help but think of someone coming out from behind the curtain or exits during the entire movie. So I picked the seat in a corner and was 4ft from an exit door

NMPOPS
07-25-2012, 01:48
I'm doing nothing different.

captdreifus
07-25-2012, 02:10
Standard carry for me. G19 with at least one spare (17) magazine, tlr1 attached, and KKM threaded bbl.

My friend died in that theatre. Sometimes, SHTF hard and there is nothing you can do.

Be free. Do not be scared of public places, but be alert. Never let terror run your life. This is AMERICA.

Ymmv.

John Biltz
07-25-2012, 02:30
First of all I prepare for the likely and active shooters really are a rare thing. Once every couple of years somewhere. I'm not going to prepare for the rare and be unprepared for the likely. This does not change my risk assessment.

Maine1
07-25-2012, 02:53
Sticking with the G-20 and 2 reloads.
If it was aplicable, armor or not, rapid hits from my 10mm on his face sheild, helmet, chest, groin, hands and arms would not help him, and allow my family to escape.

Misty02
07-25-2012, 04:29
X2

I find all these thread funny. Lets be honest....99% of you(includes me) guys would never engage a armed body armored nutjob. Certianly not with your little SD used handgun & 13-30 or so rds of ammo.

If it buys my kids and grandkids time to get out in one piece, you bet I would. Why do you think I carry? Increasing my odds of staying alive is one reason, but not the main reason. The main reason is increasing ďtheirĒ odds.

I know Iíll likely be toast if I engage a shooter(s). Our practice includes getting away from the armed individuals in our group knowing there is a great possibility of incoming fire the second our armed presence is known. My only hope is that my draw is faster than that of my sons and any incoming fire is to me and not them. It is also the main reason Iíve charged them with the responsibility of getting their nephew and nieces to safety with the logic that they are younger, in better shape, stronger and faster. Their ability to tuck each of them under their arm and run is greater than mine.

Youíll find many parents and grandparents that have done many ďnot so smartĒ things to keep harm away from their offspring. It is not until later that you reflect back and realize all else that could have gone wrong and all could have ended right then and there.

You donít have kids, do you? If you did, you would know. :) I donít expect anyone without kids to be able to understand how many stupid and self-destructive things a parent may do on their behalf.

.

Misty02
07-25-2012, 05:00
Perhaps I will practice more head shots. 2 to the chest, 1 to the head. Even if someone has on a vest, a double tap to the chest is going to probably put them down at least for a few seconds, that's where the one in the head comes in.

Iíve been reading about bullet resistant armor since this happened. From what I read, it may be a distraction, it will hurt and will leave a good bruise, but it will not put them out of the fight in any way. If someone is decked as this individual is said to have been, they are expecting to be hit and prepared to fight through the pain if they have to. Also consider they may be under the influence of something to control the pain or increase adrenaline and will to stay in a fighting mode.

This was a real case where the BGs wore body armor, the 9mm,.38 special and 12g shotgun ammo from the police could not penetrate the bank robbersí body armor, their bullets were ineffective. This was back in 1997, more effective body armor has been created since; granted bullets have likely improved as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout)

Our odds of survival against an individual wearing such armor that is indiscriminately firing at others is not good. The only reason to even attempt it would be to save others by hopefully distracting the shooter long enough to allow their escape, not because we think we can stop them with our carried handgun. Now, if a good size group decides to risk it, jump and immobilize the shooter (knowing some will be shot as they approach) that may likely yield a much better outcome. The question remains, how many would risk that and how many of those that do will reach the shooter before theyíre shot themselves?


Look at this, his face just flinched a tad, no change in his posture. There is no knock back and he was able to even speak just fine after.
Discreet Body Armor: Live Fire Demonstration - DBA Computer Case - YouTube#!

.

jph02
07-25-2012, 06:49
To be completely honest, I don't think that I'd have been in the position to do anything other than try to help my wife and I escape.

Initially, I'd probably thought it was either some sort of movie publicity stunt, or perhaps a prank. Once I realized it was a real situation... I'm not sure how much I'd have been able to do with my lowly G27's 10 shots of .40 S&W in a smoke filled, dark room filled with hundreds of fleeing people. The odds of being able to safely take a shot would have been very slim.

I carry to protect myself and my family primarily. I'd like to think that if I were in a situation like what occurred in Aurora, CO I'd have the courage, skill and opportunity to do something about it, but realistically I know that is unlikely. CCW is most effective against common criminals and thugs... people with fear of death and normal mental functions. Crazed spree-killers are a whole different animal where luck plays a much bigger role than preparation can.
This.

Arc Angel
07-25-2012, 07:06
Has the latest vest wearing active shooter had an impact on your handgun choice?

1. Odds are this won't happen to me.
2. I'm getting a Five-Seven!
3. Worried that my .32/.380 may not be enough.
4. I need a vest

Ok, are you REALLY going to change your tactics, training, or equipment? ...or just avoid death traps?

:upeyes: I need to know more about this, 'vest' the media is talking about. Personally, I doubt that it is a genuine bulletproof vest. I suspect what the, 'Batman Movie Killer' was actually wearing is a tactical rather than a bulletproof vest.

Will I change anything I'm presently doing? Naaa. When you're not making any personal security mistakes to begin with, there's really nothing to change. ;)

fuzzy03cls
07-25-2012, 07:29
I’ve been reading about bullet resistant armor since this happened. From what I read, it may be a distraction, it will hurt and will leave a good bruise, but it will not put them out of the fight in any way. If someone is decked as this individual is said to have been, they are expecting to be hit and prepared to fight through the pain if they have to. Also consider they may be under the influence of something to control the pain or increase adrenaline and will to stay in a fighting mode.

This was a real case where the BGs wore body armor, the 9mm,.38 special and 12g shotgun ammo from the police could not penetrate the bank robbers’ body armor, their bullets were ineffective. This was back in 1997, more effective body armor has been created since; granted bullets have likely improved as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout)

Our odds of survival against an individual wearing such armor that is indiscriminately firing at others is not good. The only reason to even attempt it would be to save others by hopefully distracting the shooter long enough to allow their escape, not because we think we can stop them with our carried handgun. Now, if a good size group decides to risk it, jump and immobilize the shooter (knowing some will be shot as they approach) that may likely yield a much better outcome. The question remains, how many would risk that and how many of those that do will reach the shooter before they’re shot themselves?


Look at this, his face just flinched a tad, no change in his posture. There is no knock back and he was able to even speak just fine after.
Discreet Body Armor: Live Fire Demonstration - DBA Computer Case - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDRRJZ6rJBY&feature=player_embedded)#!

.
That's what I'm talking about. Returning fire as a distraction to get out of there is different then engaging this shooter to stop him & being some big hero.

Darkangel1846
07-25-2012, 07:30
I already practice being aware while in public. Most likely won't change my life around due to a shooting in a big city. But anytime I go to a larger event I automatically plan my escape route. The smallest HG I carry is a .380, the largest is a 10MM. I would give cover fire until my family is out of the kill box.....I would try for the head legs and hands....then get out of Dodge.

Misty02
07-25-2012, 09:41
You proved my point with this....Yet you still say you'd engage them? I would think your concern would be to get your kids/fam/whaterver out of there & not try to stop the guy. That's what I'm talking about. Returning fire as a distraction to get out of there is different then engaging this shooter to stop him & being some big hero.

Specific circumstances will dictate the best possible course of action. Were there any killed or injured in the stampede to get out of the movie theater? It is a tough situation because you have to observe, think and react all within seconds.

I would not exactly recommend being among the first that stood up to run as those would likely engage the attention of the shooter first. The important things here is to stop the shooter and bring him off his feet to where he canít continue shooting, whether that is done by tackling him or shooting him is dictated by a multitude of variables.

BTW, returning fire as a distraction yields high probabilities his return fire will be specifically aimed in your direction. The person returning fire may not be among the ones that makes it out. It is a fight to the death, there is no guarantee who the victor would be (but you must be willing to continue even if youíre hit). It has nothing to do with being a hero, it has everything to do with doing what is necessary to accomplish your immediate goals.

.

Southswede
07-25-2012, 12:48
X2

I find all these thread funny. Lets be honest....99% of you(includes me) guys would never engage a armed body armored nutjob. Certianly not with your little SD used handgun & 13-30 or so rds of ammo.

I guess it is a good thing there are still some of us willing to do that, which others are unwilling, or unable to do then-right?

As an active shooter instructor, no changes needed......

beatcop
07-25-2012, 18:21
As an active shooter instructor, no changes needed......

Glad you're around.

I'm trained....however the training usually has you "heading to the shots" & those are shots are prob at soft targets. You find the room/hall & engage. A real improvement over being ambushed w/long gun high volume shooter.

Anyone who stands against a guy like this gets my vote for hero of the year!

beatcop
07-25-2012, 19:49
One thing I plan to do more often is carry my HD hand-held tac light with me while away from home. The following article made that suggestion and contains some other good advice I plan to keep in mind:

Navy SEAL Lessons Learned From Aurora Colorado (http://sofrep.com/9657/navy-seal-lessons-learned-aurora-colorado-survive/)

If a bright light from a shooter was shined in my eyes, I'd take a body index and unload...I would not advise attracting any attention to yourself prior to squeezing the trigger. There is only one yellow flash he will need to see.

Snaps
07-25-2012, 20:27
don't need any changes. I'm good with everyhing.

far as the flashlight, um no. IN theory it's good and I understand how it's intended. Hell I've used that before, IN A WAR.

If you're in a crowded theater and somebody is randomly shooting people the dumbest thing you could ever do is draw attention to yourself or give the shooter a reason to point the weapon in taht direction.

You don't need to be able to see clearly to shoot at a point. But that big assed bright light target helps

SgtScott31
07-25-2012, 21:22
I haven't carried that much off-duty, but as a result of this I have recently decided to do so. I have also bought an IWB holster for better concealment. I was in the movies three weeks ago with my wife and kids. I put myself in the position of those unfortunate souls in CO and I would never forgive myself if I were put in a position to possibly stop a shooter and I didn't have my weapon on me. Now that's not to suggest I could have made a difference in the CO shootings, but it strongly pushed the "what if" question back in my head if I didn't have my firearm and something went down. Obviously LEOs are not under any obligation to act (legally) off-duty, but given our nature we probably will, especially if it's a life or death situation and we could make a difference. So the answer is "yes," this recent mass killing has encouraged me to go armed more often than I used to.

Misty02
07-25-2012, 21:22
If a bright light from a shooter was shined in my eyes, I'd take a body index and unload...I would not advise attracting any attention to yourself prior to squeezing the trigger. There is only one yellow flash he will need to see.

I donít disagree but those trying to escape, assuming the movie theater had stadium type seating, had to maneuver through multiple steps in the dark while others were pushing and shoving. I would be concerned with attracting the attention of the shooter, but I would also be concerned with missing a step, falling and having a human stampede run over me or a loved one. I canít make up my mind which would be worst.

.

Misty02
07-25-2012, 21:27
I haven't carried that much off-duty, but as a result of this I have recently decided to do so. I have also bought an IWB holster for better concealment. I was in the movies three weeks ago with my wife and kids. I put myself in the position of those unfortunate souls in CO and I would never forgive myself if I were put in a position to possibly stop a shooter and I didn't have my weapon on me. Now that's not to suggest I could have made a difference in the CO shootings, but it strongly pushed the "what if" question back in my head if I didn't have my firearm and something went down. Obviously LEOs are not under any obligation to act (legally) off-duty, but given our nature we probably will, especially if it's a life or death situation and we could make a difference. So the answer is "yes," this recent mass killing has encouraged me to go armed more often than I used to.

That is a good change and hopefully youíll never need it. If the situation forces itself on you, it means youíll have the choice. If you donít carry, you just eliminate one option from the ones you can choose at the time.

.

fuzzy03cls
07-26-2012, 08:14
I guess it is a good thing there are still some of us willing to do that, which others are unwilling, or unable to do then-right?

As an active shooter instructor, no changes needed......
Yes, your in the 1%.
My point is this is the internet & everyone is rambo apparently from their responses.
I have no problem stating my limitations in training or commitment. I carry to protect me & family. It's a defensive weapon, Not an offensive weapon. I don't have the training or experience to be rambo.

Cream Soda Kid
07-26-2012, 09:41
I just try to keep aware of what's going on around me, and who's around me. (avoid obvious death traps) My carry piece is usually a 9MM.

I know it won't defeat body armor, but I guess that's why we practice the Mozambique drill and pray for the best.

No, no Rambo here.

RyanNREMTP
07-26-2012, 10:05
I'm Buying stock in redbox......just sayin

Netflix here.

Sent from 31.30.6912 -97.07.7736

Misty02
07-26-2012, 10:28
Yes, your in the 1%.
My point is this is the internet & everyone is rambo apparently from their responses.
I have no problem stating my limitations in training or commitment. I carry to protect me & family. It's a defensive weapon, Not an offensive weapon. I don't have the training or experience to be rambo.

We should acknowledge that people do heroic things (by the interpretation of others) every day, not many which would make the news or grab a headline or two. Few, if any, of them had the training or experience to be a Rambo nor is it there intent to be a hero; they just happened to be present at a time a certain action was necessary and did the best they could to make it work.

There is no greater deterrent placed on human performance than that created by our own minds. If we believe we canít, odds are we wonít as we have already set our mind on it.

Have you ever gathered strength or speed to do something you thought was unlikely or not highly possible because you just reacted and it happened to work out? It could have been something as simple as observing something about to fall and catching it in mid-air before it hit the ground.

Iíve referred to this more than a couple of times lately, the passengers of flight 93 on 9/11 were not Rambo, they werenít even armed. I sincerely doubt they had any desire to become heroes, yet that is what their fate was. They did the best they could with what they had, their actions resulted in many lives being spared. At times it just happens even if it is not what you planned to do. Donít close your mind to the possibility.


.

fuzzy03cls
07-26-2012, 13:32
Yeah well no one actually did a damn thing in that theater, so.......

Your taking it out there more then it needs to be. You know damn well the type of people that post on GT. You know well that some of these people have the wrong mindset from behind their internet connection & just blab BS. That's simply what I am referring to when these threads that get started.

Southswede
07-26-2012, 13:34
Yes, your in the 1%.
My point is this is the internet & everyone is rambo apparently from their responses.
I have no problem stating my limitations in training or commitment. I carry to protect me & family. It's a defensive weapon, Not an offensive weapon. I don't have the training or experience to be rambo.

Your limitations revolve around your mindset. You set yourself up for failure when you tell yourself/think you can't do something.

This thread came about as a result from the Colorado incident. The choices I see are to fight back or lie down and count on that POS love of humanity to NOT kill me. It really is that simple.......:dunno:

Misty02
07-26-2012, 14:11
Yeah well no one actually did a damn thing in that theater, so.......

Your taking it out there more then it needs to be. You know damn well the type of people that post on GT. You know well that some of these people have the wrong mindset from behind their internet connection & just blab BS. That's simply what I am referring to when these threads that get started.

Fuzzy, we donít know who did what in that theater. We only know no one was successful in stopping the shooter. I do know that some used their body to shield a loved one, that was what came to mind at that moment and at least one accomplished that goal.

If the comment about ďtaking it out thereĒ is meant for me, I donít believe Iíve taken it anywhere it may not belong; although I understand that is subject to interpretation. There are all sorts of people that post on GT, you and I among them. You likely know Iím not one to intervene in most cases not involving a loved one, thus it would be easy to state there isnít a heroic bone in my entire body.

These threads, for me, are a way to explore the variety of possibilities (while I pray Iím never forced to explore any personally). Iím honest enough to state that if I thought there was a way to safely get my family and myself out of that mess, I would. The problem is that in this particular case the risk associated with escape was just as high, if not higher, than the risk associated with fighting. The risks present were not just the ones associated with the shooter himself, but also with the mob like reaction to his presence, which I fully understand.

Most of my actions and thoughts are guided by a risk versus reward analysis; there wouldnít have been much time to come up with a ďgoodĒ plan in this case but ďaĒ plan would have been better than none. Some risked running away and got lucky, at least 12 didnít (not forgetting that among those were people that gave their life to protect a loved one), 70 others were injured and hopefully every single one of them recovers favorably from their injuries.


http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21118201/unknown-number-people-shot-at-aurora-movie-theater (http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21118201/unknown-number-people-shot-at-aurora-movie-theater)

Many of the injuries were from bullets but a handful were the " result of the chaos and trauma in the theater."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/batman-shooting-aurora-critically-injured_n_1691217.html

Eleven of the 70 people injured in a shooting rampage at a suburban Denver movie theater during a midnight screening of the new "Batman" film remained in critical condition on Friday evening, police said.
Hopefully there aren't 11 more to add to the toll.

It is not difficult to foresee injuries, including death, resulting from being trampled to death.

.

Chris Chris
07-26-2012, 14:50
I can't speak for anyone else, but I carry daily in the ardent hope that I never have to use it. My handgun is there for an unforseen 'worst case' scenario. It's a M&P 9c with full sized 17 round mags stuffed with Speer Gold Dot +P. One in the gun, one of the weak side IDPA carry position (I classified IDPA MA with that same gun)

I consider that gun & mag in the same light as I do the insurance I carry on my home, vehicles, and boat. It's there if I need it, but I hope I never need it.

I tend to think that most of the non-nut job responsible concealed carriers feel the same way.

beatcop
07-26-2012, 15:17
Misty,

Take a look at some of the low light training outlines. They teach light discipline when engaging. If faced with an open area, anything that is different, causes contrast, etc will draw the eye. If there was a guy with a large white t-shirt, I wouldn't want to place bets on his survival. Granted, you are shining a way out, not engaging, but you will attract fire.

Keep head up in a crowd, don't stare at the ground...you will be pushed when you pause. The crowd will push at your back and force you so close to the guy in front of you, you will not keep an "interval"...you will not see the floor.

To the point of "blinding" the shooter....don't waste your time, just shoot. If you walk in somwhere, intent on just killing, you will just aim in the direction of whatever has blinded you and unload.

Misty02
07-26-2012, 15:59
Misty,

Take a look at some of the low light training outlines. They teach light discipline when engaging. If faced with an open area, anything that is different, causes contrast, etc will draw the eye. If there was a guy with a large white t-shirt, I wouldn't want to place bets on his survival. Granted, you are shining a way out, not engaging, but you will attract fire.

Keep head up in a crowd, don't stare at the ground...you will be pushed when you pause. The crowd will push at your back and force you so close to the guy in front of you, you will not keep an "interval"...you will not see the floor.

To the point of "blinding" the shooter....don't waste your time, just shoot. If you walk in somwhere, intent on just killing, you will just aim in the direction of whatever has blinded you and unload.

Very hard and risky choices to make, to say the least. Iím trying to learn as much as possible from everyoneís comments some may be possible for me, some may not, all being equally stored in the memory bank for future access and further dissecting.

I donít recall ever being in what is likely to be such a tight crowd with everyone attempting to reach a particular exit and may have not thought about the ďnot trying to look downĒ part (a thought you just introduced) but it makes sense that the force would take a person in that direction, whether they want to or not, unless they happen to stumble and fall.

.

beatcop
07-26-2012, 18:53
Some concerts, bar closes, minor disturbances can get hairy. When you jog in a formation you watch the guys head in front of you and those further in front. When someone hops an obstacle you see the wave coming toward you...you don't stare at your feet. Take shorter steps, lift feet a little higher if people are stepping on the back of your boots....you're screwed in a crowd in some respects. Usually the people behind you would be a good barrier, but if it's up stairs everyone is exposed.

bdcremer
07-28-2012, 16:54
I changed my weapon. I went from a G23G4 to a G17G4. I gained 4 rounds and lower recoil to provide me the slight advantage needed to make accurate head shots with speed.

The Colorado massacre was the best thought out incident to date and warrants some analysis. Someone with a ccw pistol is going up against a guy with a rifle. My weapon platform needs to give me the ability to engage with rapid, controlled fire with the largest reasonable capacity.

I think I have moved to a pistol with a lesser amount of trade-offs than other platforms. I maybe wrong, but I am using information that life provides in order to create my own luck. Luck is defined as opportunity met with preparedness. I am not Rambo, my Navy service was real and not dramatized by Hollywood. I take the wisdom from my military service and will use it to the best of my ability.

steveksux
07-28-2012, 19:08
Someone earlier posted the "correct" answer in my view.

There's not much to change. There's no handgun that will defeat body armor. Not with ammo available to civilians.

So unless you want to start CCing a rifle, and wear body armor yourself, with plates to protect against his rifle. You're going to be at a significant disadvantage no matter what you do.

Randy

Cavalry Doc
07-29-2012, 10:12
Yeah well no one actually did a damn thing in that theater, so.......

Your taking it out there more then it needs to be. You know damn well the type of people that post on GT. You know well that some of these people have the wrong mindset from behind their internet connection & just blab BS. That's simply what I am referring to when these threads that get started.

I knew this guy once. He was a friendly fellow, we used to joke around at work often. He looked and acted like Santa Clause. He would never hurt a flea as far as I knew. Then one day, some muslim jihadist opened fire at work, and killed my friend. I didn't find out until the initial hearings that Mike was running at Hasan with a chair over his head. At least he tried.

http://www.estatevaults.com/lm/_Michael_Cahill_fthood.jpg

When the stuff hits the fan, you never know who will rise to the occasion and at least try, and we don't know if anyone was running at the Aurora shooter and just didn't make it.

It was a gun free zone.


I just want to point out that criticizing the victims for not being able to stop a heavily armed and armored guy, and claiming that they did not do a damn thing, when at least 3 people died shielding loved ones is just about as low as whale crap as far as I'm concerned. You're like school on a saturday..... :shame:

Jack23
07-29-2012, 13:21
I have always factored in some practice taking head shots in my shooting training/practice. As is stated, these days it is not likely that you would encounter a bad guy wearing a vest but as time passes this could change.

Being proficient with the head shot is, IMHO, an important part of preparedness. In most defensive circumstances I feel very comfortable taking the head shot inside 25'.

FMF Doc
07-29-2012, 14:02
Didn't change anything, except it made me go the the range again and confirm that I can still do a failure to stop drill from conceament in under 3 sec.

Misty02
07-29-2012, 14:22
Didn't change anything, except it made me go the the range again and confirm that I can still do a failure to stop drill from conceament in under 3 sec.

Were you moving and your target moving toward an unpredictable location?

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FMF Doc
07-29-2012, 14:27
Were you moving and your target moving toward an unpredictable location?

.


We don't have moving targets at our range, but I have used them before, but I do practice in low light, moving to engage, and start withm y back to the target. It isn't a $1600 advanced frontsight course, but it keeps the skills I honed in the military as sharp as I can.

Misty02
07-30-2012, 04:30
We don't have moving targets at our range, but I have used them before, but I do practice in low light, moving to engage, and start withm y back to the target. It isn't a $1600 advanced frontsight course, but it keeps the skills I honed in the military as sharp as I can.

First, thank you for your service. Second, you are in a better position than some of us. I have absolutely no clue how I would perform under those conditions while taking incoming fire. Weíre attending a FOF class this year but Iíll know that incoming fire wonít kill me or mine, the most itíll do is sting for a bit.

Needless to say, I plan to change little other than getting more training, which is something we have been working at for a while and is still not enough.
.

C.Smith
07-31-2012, 20:53
May not be enough, but I carry a FMJ reload in 10MM.

Whats that going to do for you? Better off with hollowpoints.

Corey