Please consider: More CCWs, instead of less, could minimize such atrocities [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Lakota
07-23-2012, 21:02
(Dear Moderators - Out of empathy for the most recent tragedy in Aurora, Colororado, Captain Mas has allowed this post to be posted on his forum. Russ P. - also empathetically - asked me to post this here.
- Respectfully, Lakota)

1st Anniversary of Norwegian massacre.
The latest atrocity of the Aurora, Colrorado massacre, is presently followed by the first anniversary of the abominable violence in Norway:

(CNN) -- A year after Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 people in a bomb and gun rampage in Norway, Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg urged Norwegians to "honor the dead by celebrating life."
Breivik, a self-declared ultranationalist who raged against Muslim immigration and multiculturalism, failed to achieve his goals, Stoltenberg said Sunday.
"The bombs and bullets were intended to change Norway. The Norwegian people responded by reasserting our values," Stoltenberg said. "The perpetrator failed to achieve what he set out to do. The people triumphed."
He called on people to remember their murdered loved ones with joy.
Norway massacre, mourners pay respect (http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-818429)
"No one can take the warm memories away from you. A father's reassuring hand. The sounds from a child's playroom. The memories of goodness and joy cannot be erased," he said.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.e/img/3.0/mosaic/bttn_close.gif (http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.e/img/3.0/mosaic/bttn_close.gif)
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120417093229-ctw-intv-norway-shooting-survivor-on-trial-00003017-story-body.jpg (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120417093229-ctw-intv-norway-shooting-survivor-on-trial-00003017-story-body.jpg)
(http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/22/world/europe/norway-shooting-anniversary/index.html#)



shooting survivor attends trial
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.e/img/3.0/mosaic/bttn_close.gif (http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.e/img/3.0/mosaic/bttn_close.gif)

Mass murder suspect defends actions
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.e/img/3.0/mosaic/bttn_close.gif (http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.e/img/3.0/mosaic/bttn_close.gif)
Alleged mass killer shows no remorse
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.e/img/3.0/mosaic/bttn_close.gif (http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.e/img/3.0/mosaic/bttn_close.gif)

Breivik claims killing was 'necessary'
And he asked Norwegians to respond to the horror by reaching out to people who may be suffering and in need of help.
"We will not forget you when the long days of summer give way to autumn darkness," he said at a ceremony marking the anniversary. "Reach out. Show that you care. A chat about everyday things could help someone regain their will to live."
Norwegians observed a minute of silence to mark the worst atrocity on Norwegian soil since World War II, as Americans reeled from an enormous mass shooting two days earlier.
Read: Full text of Prime Minister's speech (http://www.regjeringen.no/en/dep/smk/Whats-new/Speeches-and-articles/statsministeren/statsminister_jens_stoltenberg/2012/speech-at-un-conference-on-sustainable-d/22-july-remembrance-ceremony-2012.html?id=696939)
James E. Holmes (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/us/colorado-theater-suspect-profile/index.html), 24, is accused of killing 12 people and wounding 58 in the suburban Denver community of Aurora during a midnight screening of the Batman movie "The Dark Knight Rises" on Friday.
In Norway, Breivik is on trial on charges of voluntary homicide and committing acts of terror in the July 22, 2011 attacks.
He admits bombing a government building in Oslo before heading to an island summer camp, where he opened fire as terrified youth jumped into water to escape the hail of bullets.
The twin attacks killed 77 people, including 69 at the Labour Party summer camp. Many of the victims there were teenagers.
The court must determine whether Breivik was sane at the time of the killings. Mental health experts have given conflicting opinions.
Breivik gave chilling details of the gun rampage during his trial this year.
Without apparent emotion, he recounted firing more bullets into teenagers who were injured and couldn't escape, killing those who tried to "play dead" and driving others into the sea to drown.
Some survivors and relatives of victims in the courtroom wept as they listened to his detailed account of the attack on the youth camp on Utoya Island.
Breivik told the court he had made use of lessons learned from al Qaeda in planning his attacks, and was inspired by the Oklahoma City and World Trade Center bombings. He boasts of being an ultranationalist who killed his victims to fight multiculturalism in Norway, and says he acted out of "necessity."
Experts' assessment of Breivik's sanity will be a factor in determining what punishment he receives if convicted. Sentencing options could include imprisonment or confining him to a mental facility.
His verdict is expected August 24.
Numerous events are scheduled nationwide Sunday to mark the first anniversary of the killings, including religious services and wreath-laying ceremonies to pay tribute to victims of the attacks.
What will happen to Norway's mass killer Breivik? (http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/17/world/europe/norway-breivik-trial-explainer/index.html)
Norway's Breivik gives chilling account of gun massacre (http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/world/europe/norway-breivik-trial/index.html)
Norway mass-shooting trial reopens debate on violent video games (http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/19/tech/gaming-gadgets/games-violence-norway-react/index.html).

___________________________________________

Due to this anniversary, in the immediate wake of the Aurora, Colorado debacle, it's fairly predictable that the anti gun lobby sees 'opportunity' and 'fuel' for 'their cause' here; whereas, the other side of that coin is: the more CCW's there are, the less numerous and less extreme, such atrocities will occur.

Any consideration of disarming the law abiding American and world population en toto, will only provide multi-billionare drug and weapons dealers all over the world, to hire - pay extravagently - rogue machinists, tool & die-makers and gunsmiths to arm the global criminal elements exclusively: leaving no defense(s) for vast majority of disarmed, law abiding citizens everywhere - this consideration fairly parallels the by gone 'prohibition' of ubiquitous alcohol; that is, it will only criminalize everyone who wishes, in this case, to acquire the means to simply defend themselves and others, who endemically do not and will not comply with whatever laws may disarm the vast majority population of citizens.

This 'gridlock' has been and will predictably continue to be a grievously paramount social dilemma, approximately parallel to the issue of 'abortion', which, considered on a global basis, burdens moralists and lawmakers with the dichotomy of - with a minority of exceptions - requiring all pregnancies to go full term, or, legal abortion.

On a world wide-basis, when this issue falls on the side of illegalizing abortion, it condemns a minimum of 35,000 children daily, to the age of five, to perish of malnutrition. For the incumbent dilemma of these reasons, there is not, neither will there ever be, any easy 'resolution' to the cited brachiation.

('Damned if you don't, damned if you do'.)

Another cogent parallel is that of 'slavery', which contradicts Thomas Jefferson's authorship (with many other contributors) of the American Constitution, that '...all men are created equal'.

This enigma was cast aside by the 'government lawmakers' - destined to burden posterity - for nearly one hundred years, before it finally - and inevitably - confronted 'We the people', and 'lawmakers', with a terrifically abrasive emotional and economic issue, resulting in the tumultuously moral and legal culmination of the ineffably terrible Civil War.

I, personally hope with all sincereity, that no 'ratification' of the Constitution, depriving - or generating serious obstacles to -the Constitutional right of law abiding citizens keep and bear their very treasured and emphatically pragmatic property.

The suspensory 'alternative' being nothing less than yet another Civil War; wherein, due to the quasi-predictable restraint from ordering (domestic) paramilitary police and military institutions to turn against their own people (a very questionable and grotesque scenario in itself: ordering U.S. citizens of police & military status, mobilise and act against their oath; alternatively inviting foreign, UN troops to, in effect, invade America: such scenario sorely challenges the American National Guard, and active military troops to oppose such invasion), in order to act out contemptuous orders to activate the Constitutional Duty of all citizens of the United States of America, to protect the constitution from all her enemies, be they foreign or domestic, whomsoever.

IMHO, the employment of any so called 'doctorine' or 'ratification' to allow the above described enigma - or any like it - to unfold on the side of domestic hegemony, would, and will, constitute a declaration of war against 'We the people... ' instilling a subsequent collapse of American society as we (partially) know it.

I am very respectfully and sincerely,
- Lakota
(An American born 'half breed' Mongolian-Scot, with no offense implied or taken.)

Glock_9mm
07-23-2012, 21:34
Great post! :patriot:

Sticky worthy IMO.
Scott

samurairabbi
07-23-2012, 22:19
I offer a concept from epidemiological experience: Herd immunity.

For most communicable diseases, if 80 to 90 percent of the population is either vaccinated against a disease or has gained immunity by recovering from the disease, something interest happens: even though there are still a lot of people in the population still vulnerable to the disease, that disease will not take off with a MAJOR outbreak. It will still pick off an occasional victim here and there, but that is all.

In a population in which, say, only 20% of the population is legally carrying (my opinion on the percentage), the illegally carried firearm will lose most of its threat, since the operator of that illegal firearm will be faced with a real, yet unseen, capability of IMMEDIATE resistance from somewhere in his sphere of possible victims. The herd immunity to illegal firearms will be achieved, even though only a MINORITY of the herd actually takes the trouble to carry! This may be seen as a weird claim in comparison to the high percentage needed to protect a population from a communicable disease, but remember: in the gun case, the "infectious agent" actually thinks about what might snap back against him.

jph02
07-24-2012, 06:54
Interesting and well thought out discussion on this topic.
...Thomas Jefferson's authorship (with many other contributors) of the American Constitution, that '...all men are created equal'.
As a point of clarification, the quote is from the Declaration of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal). This does not make it law of the land without other legalisms to enact it.

...ordering U.S. citizens of police & military status, mobilise and act against their oath...to protect the constitution from all her enemies, be they foreign or domestic, whomsoever...
The US military oath (http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/oathofenlist.htm) specifies supporting and defending the Constitution and following orders of those appointed above. It is for the courts, not the military, to decide if there is a disconnect between what the Constitution says and orders or laws promulgated by political authority. As you indicate, this would be a very ugly scenario, indeed.

The herd immunity to illegal firearms will be achieved, even though only a MINORITY of the herd actually takes the trouble to carry! This may be seen as a weird claim in comparison to the high percentage needed to protect a population from a communicable disease, but remember: in the gun case, the "infectious agent" actually thinks about what might snap back against him.
I think you're exactly right. Criminals prefer easy targets and if they don't perceive the odds to be in their favor, they will move on. In any case, the percentage needed to protect the population varies, so a "low" carry percentage is likely to be effective against a criminal pandemic.

In the case of nutjobs like James Holmes, we're more dependent upon an armed citizen taking him out. His type will not be deterred by available carry, so gun control will not prevent recurrences. On the other hand, if no one is armed, the ability to end the crisis is delayed until local law enforcement arrives and the number of casualties greatly increases. It's just like heart attack survival rates, which are better with public access defibrilators in malls and such than if citizens have to wait for EMS to arrive.

Misty02
07-24-2012, 07:39
Excellent posts and thoughts!

.

unit1069
07-24-2012, 14:31
I think the more law-abiding armed citizens the less crime, as Prof. John Lott's research has established. This is why law-abiding black citizens who have been denied their Second Amendment rights for so many years ought to be outraged at the Radical Left/Democrat/JournoList axis that has actively penalized residents of large urban areas, leaving them at the mercy of street thugs and gangs. There's no mystery why businesses in these areas have been depressed for decades; the residents are fearful of walking the streets. During the Rodney King riots the residents of affected neighborhoods in LA begged the National Guard not to leave as it was the only time many of them were able to go out in public without fear.

I don't know if a deranged person would be deterred from carrying out a spree killing as so many of these kind of incidents are committed by people who end up either killing themselves or eventually cut down by the police or others. I think America ought to give the idea a try, beginning with the education system to prepare students for the day when they can join a national effort to deter mass murder as well as common criminal activity.

Misty02
07-25-2012, 02:44
"Somebody has to be responsible for the rampant violence that is shown today," Karpel told TMZ.

I agree, someone is responsible, James Eagan Holmes. Why would the movie theater, Warner Bros. or the company that sold the accessories (or anyone else) have any fault in this? The courts shouldn’t even allow something like that to happen, at least not for the reasons stated.

I must admit, the one reason I may find justifiable for going after the movie theater would be for their “no carry” sign. Those kinds of signs may be observed by law-abiding and conscientious people but obviously not the gunman. You want to ban weapons? Fine, but then you’re responsible for making certain weapons are truly banned and no one can carry inside, that includes the gunman. Since I doubt it is something they can effectively monitor and control, then they may be responsible for the safety of those that decided to obey such signs.


.

NEOH212
07-25-2012, 02:50
Please consider: More CCWs, instead of less, could minimize such atrocities

TLDR.

However, I do agree with the principle in the title.

Darkangel1846
07-25-2012, 07:52
You have to notice that these cowardly murderers always go where everyone is unarmed. Even at Ft. Hood none of the victims were armed. Ya always have to wait for the police. the police always arrive just in time to tag everyones toe. It's why I pack heat everywhere..

Lakota
07-26-2012, 18:00
No law(s) have any meaning, if and when they are not enforced. :whistling:

Best regards,
- Lakota

Paul53
07-26-2012, 21:09
Most intelligent and well thought out thread I've read on GT. Ladies and gentlemen, it's an honor to be among you, not to mention agreeing wholeheartedly. God Bless(ed) America.

ArtCrafter
07-28-2012, 05:34
No law(s) have any meaning, if and when they are not enforced. : whistling:


Does that include COPYRIGHT law? :whistling: