Thoughts? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Gunhaver
07-24-2012, 16:55
I just ran across this quote today by Frank Lloyd Wright.

"If capitalism is fair then unionism must be. If men have the right to capitalize their ideas and the resources of their country, then that implies the rights of men to capitalize their labor."

Seem legit?

Gundude
07-24-2012, 17:40
Free market unionism is fair, yes. If workers want to pool the value of their labor to get a better deal for themselves, then they should be able to do that. But only to the extent the free market allows it. Arbitrary laws that prevent employers from going outside the union destroy that fairness.

Gunhaver
07-24-2012, 17:50
Free market unionism is fair, yes. If workers want to pool the value of their labor to get a better deal for themselves, then they should be able to do that. But only to the extent the free market allows it. Arbitrary laws that prevent employers from going outside the union destroy that fairness.

That's pretty much what I was thinking but it seems like most of the haters these days are more focused on the unions than the laws. You hear it all the time, "It's the unions!"

Gundude
07-24-2012, 18:04
That's pretty much what I was thinking but it seems like most of the haters these days are more focused on the unions than the laws. You hear it all the time, "It's the unions!"Probably because so many modern unions are mostly focused on creating laws to increase their bargaining position to heights far beyond what the free market would allow. They are basically political lobbying machines, designed to subvert the free market by demanding governmental intrusion.

But they are only half the problem. The other half, of course, is a political system and electorate which gladly accomodates, if not outrightly encourages, their activities.

gwalchmai
07-24-2012, 19:39
Frank Lloyd Wright was a jerk to his friends & family and his buildings had structural problems. He was a shameless self-promoter and benefited from good press.

OTOH, I agree that men have the right to unionize. They also have the obligation to forbid corruption within their unions. And capitalists have the right to hire scabs. Fair's fair after all.

G29Reload
07-24-2012, 19:43
I just ran across this quote today by Frank Lloyd Wright.

"If capitalism is fair then unionism must be. If men have the right to capitalize their ideas and the resources of their country, then that implies the rights of men to capitalize their labor."

Seem legit?

IT would be if union membership weren't mandatory the way it frequently is.

Union shop generally means you MUST be in the union to work there. At ALL.

Capitalism requires a free market. Where unions tread, the labor market is NOT free to operate. Its all union and their rules, or hit the road.

G29Reload
07-24-2012, 19:51
You hear it all the time, "It's the unions!"

Which is legit, because they're pretty much part and parcel, together. Unions, and how they operate monolithically.

When they're in, they're in like cancer. They own the road and take it down. They're not an …option.

Its not like a union shop operates, and you can join them, or alternatively …not, and strike your own bargain. Don't work like that. Never has.

They strangle the s#$^ out of everything they encounter, eventually.

Basically the OP quote is wrong.

In capitalism, you're free to go from one business to the next.

You don't like your job, go down the road to another company.

With Unions, you HAVE to find another company if you don't like working for them. No other option. You're not free to cut your own deal.

and in some cases, for a particular trade…you'll find that same union at the next company down the road doing the same thing you do for a living. Can't get away from them..if they dominate an industry…its the same everywhere.

No freedom at all…just a monopoly.

Gunhaver
07-25-2012, 11:23
Which is legit, because they're pretty much part and parcel, together. Unions, and how they operate monolithically.

When they're in, they're in like cancer. They own the road and take it down. They're not an …option.

Its not like a union shop operates, and you can join them, or alternatively …not, and strike your own bargain. Don't work like that. Never has.

They strangle the s#$^ out of everything they encounter, eventually.

Basically the OP quote is wrong.

In capitalism, you're free to go from one business to the next.

You don't like your job, go down the road to another company.

With Unions, you HAVE to find another company if you don't like working for them. No other option. You're not free to cut your own deal.

and in some cases, for a particular trade…you'll find that same union at the next company down the road doing the same thing you do for a living. Can't get away from them..if they dominate an industry…its the same everywhere.

No freedom at all…just a monopoly.

One can only assume that the same applies to capitalism as well. If unions becoming so big and powerful that they squeeze other laborers out is a bad thing then what about corporations like Monsanto and Wal-Mart becoming so huge in any given area that there's no cost effective alternative choice of who to do business with?

Lethaltxn
07-25-2012, 11:28
One can only assume that the same applies to capitalism as well. If unions becoming so big and powerful that they squeeze other laborers out is a bad thing then what about corporations like Monsanto and Wal-Mart becoming so huge in any given area that there's no cost effective alternative choice of who to do business with?

Is someone forcing those folks to shop there?

G29Reload
07-25-2012, 11:32
One can only assume that the same applies to capitalism as well. If unions becoming so big and powerful that they squeeze other laborers out is a bad thing then what about corporations like Monsanto and Wal-Mart becoming so huge in any given area that there's no cost effective alternative choice of who to do business with?


companies typically get that big by giving people what they want. its self regulating.

you suck as a company, you don't get huge because people stop buying your stuff.


people want what they're selling, they buy it and their popularity makes them huge.

No one forces you to buy their products. its voluntary. with unions, you don't get a choice.

Gunhaver
07-25-2012, 17:36
Is someone forcing those folks to shop there?

If they grow so large that people don't really have another choice then yes, they are. What happens when Wal-Mart forces so many small businesses out of an area that there just aren't any other options for many products?

Syclone538
07-25-2012, 17:51
I have no problem with the idea of unions.

Like most things, the initiation of force is wrong. People should be able to hire who they want. People should be able to work for who they want. People should be free to negotiate together, or individually.

You strike, (or for any other reason) and the company should be free to hire your replacements, if they want, and they should be free to tell you to get off their property.

RC-RAMIE
07-25-2012, 18:34
If they grow so large that people don't really have another choice then yes, they are. What happens when Wal-Mart forces so many small businesses out of an area that there just aren't any other options for many products?

Wal-mart started as a small company. They did it better than the small businesses that are being run out of an area. If Wal-Mart can offer cheaper prices on the same goods the average citizen is the one that benfits from it.


....

Gundude
07-25-2012, 18:42
companies typically get that big by giving people what they want. its self regulating.

you suck as a company, you don't get huge because people stop buying your stuff.


people want what they're selling, they buy it and their popularity makes them huge.

No one forces you to buy their products. its voluntary. with unions, you don't get a choice.No one forces you to buy their products? What about health insurance?

What about when tech companies lobby the government to force another company to remove their own browser from their operating system, because it's so convenient that way that nobody bothers to use the other company's browser?

Companies regularly lobby the government to step in and manipulate a market. It's not an activity unique to unions. Just like unions, companies will, if they can, use the government to betray the principles of free market, so they can gain an artificial edge.

Brucev
07-25-2012, 21:10
FLW had it right. All the whining about free market, etc., etc., is just whining. Reality is that there is not and never has been a free market. And there never will be a free market. Like it or not bus. will manipulate things to benefit bus. Absolutely no reason at all for those who work for a living not to do exactly and precisely the same thing... even by organizing unions to best seek their own interest. Bus. organizes itself in the equivalent of unions to advocate for its interest. Fine. Let those who work for a living do exactly the same thing. More power to them!

Sam Spade
07-25-2012, 21:58
Free market unionism is fair, yes. If workers want to pool the value of their labor to get a better deal for themselves, then they should be able to do that. But only to the extent the free market allows it. Arbitrary laws that prevent employers from going outside the union destroy that fairness.

I agree. A monopoly on labor is just as bad for the market as a monopoly on goods.

Lethaltxn
07-25-2012, 22:46
If they grow so large that people don't really have another choice then yes, they are. What happens when Wal-Mart forces so many small businesses out of an area that there just aren't any other options for many products?

So IOW, no. Because they can't put small places out of business if no one is shopping at Walmart.
People want what Walmart is selling. The handful who think it unfair can open a competing business or go further to shop.

certifiedfunds
07-26-2012, 07:10
Unions have destroyed every major industry they've touched.

Contrast that to the oil business, where unions don't exist. Plenty of high paying jobs, plenty of entry level opportunity, has gotten exponentially safer over the last couple generations, they still offer generous pensions (that are solvent), outstanding benefits. Working for a major oil company is a phenomenal opportunity for the tradesman and math/science/engineering college graduate as well.

Why is it that the oil business doesn't need unions?

certifiedfunds
07-26-2012, 07:11
If they grow so large that people don't really have another choice then yes, they are. What happens when Wal-Mart forces so many small businesses out of an area that there just aren't any other options for many products?

Their customers made them grow.

Wal Mart isn't invincible. Someone somewhere will topple them.

If they get unionized, that'll start the clock ticking for sure.