Maryland concealed carry permit rules to relax next month [Archive] - Glock Talk

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HerrGlock
07-25-2012, 01:19
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/breaking/bs-md-gun-carry-permits-20120724,0,3373461.story

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jul/24/maryland-gun-permit-law-struck/

Lior
07-25-2012, 02:13
Good news indeed (unless you are a criminal)!

HerrGlock
07-25-2012, 02:34
Good news indeed (unless you are a criminal)!

I wouldn't be at all surprised if MD assembly will pass some sort of ban on CCW even with permit, even if they're out of session it'll get called into one for an emergency session for just such an occasion. They cannot have the peons actually fending for themselves, y'know.

blackjack
07-25-2012, 05:13
Thanks, HG, for the update as I had seen the original ruling articles but no followups. It is most gratifying to see one judge with the clear understanding of the Constitution and recent SCOTUS rulings like Heller. I don't see how the state can expect success at the appellate level but also understand that is a primary tactic by having platoons of lawyers to launch against citizens.

RYT 2BER
07-25-2012, 05:36
Doesn't affect me directly but that's just great news!

md2lgyk
07-25-2012, 09:54
I wonder if MD will issue non-resident permits or have any reciprocity. Not holding my breath.

swinokur
07-25-2012, 11:58
This is still on appeal to the 4th circuit. Special sessions of the GA can only be called for budgetary issues. No reason it couldn't be brought up during one of those however.

Agonizer
07-25-2012, 12:45
"But gun opponents such as Vice question why the state should risk the instances in which permit holders have committed gun crimes. Nationally, more than 400 people have been killed by holders of concealed carry licenses in the past few years, he said."


This is a deliberately deceptive statement. The number of deaths includes legally justified self defense shootings.

Tx-SIG229
07-25-2012, 19:07
hope MD does pass CCW so that i can visit home someday lol

IndyGunFreak
07-25-2012, 21:35
I wonder if MD will issue non-resident permits or have any reciprocity. Not holding my breath.

One step at a time.

Maryland may have been "may issue" but my understanding is Maryland permits are pretty rare. I'm curious though how they say this turns Maryland into a "shall issue" state. All the ruling seemed to state (unless I misunderstood something) is that they shouldn't have to show "good and substantial cause".

Maybe I'm missing something.

HerrGlock
07-26-2012, 01:29
One step at a time.

Maryland may have been "may issue" but my understanding is Maryland permits are pretty rare. I'm curious though how they say this turns Maryland into a "shall issue" state. All the ruling seemed to state (unless I misunderstood something) is that they shouldn't have to show "good and substantial cause".

Maybe I'm missing something.

The rest of the requirements are objective, that "good and substantial" is how MD turned people down, insufficient reason to carry per the state police.

Without that subjective requirement, they cannot turn you down as long as you meet the other, objective, ones. Shall issue.

IndyGunFreak
07-26-2012, 03:48
The rest of the requirements are objective, that "good and substantial" is how MD turned people down, insufficient reason to carry per the state police.

Without that subjective requirement, they cannot turn you down as long as you meet the other, objective, ones. Shall issue.

I don't know. The ruling doesn't seem to say that the police can't have discretion, just that they can't use a lack of "good and substantial reason" to deny someone.

I hope I'm wrong, but thats the way I read it.

HerrGlock
07-26-2012, 04:52
I don't know. The ruling doesn't seem to say that the police can't have discretion, just that they can't use a lack of "good and substantial reason" to deny someone.

I hope I'm wrong, but thats the way I read it.

Okay, not picking but you seem to be the only one reading it that way, including MD State Police and the courts.

Here's the statute for MD to get a permit:

https://web.lexisnexis.com/research/retrieve?pushme=1&tmpFBSel=&totaldocs=&taggedDocs=&toggleValue=&numDocsChked=0&prefFBSel=0&delformat=FULL&fpDocs=&fpNodeId=&fpCiteReq=&expNewLead=id%3D%22expandedNewLead%22&_m=11279b384c593aea73826ceaab61c889&searchType=&docnum=11&_fmtstr=FULL&_startdoc=11&wchp=dGLbVzV-zSkAb&_md5=0dd0722a3323de13e8a01fc7e8e0e898
PUBLIC SAFETY
TITLE 5. FIREARMS
SUBTITLE 3. HANDGUN PERMITS

Md. PUBLIC SAFETY Code Ann. 5-306 (2012)

5-306. Qualifications for permit


(a) In general. -- Subject to subsection (b) of this section, the Secretary shall issue a permit within a reasonable time to a person who the Secretary finds:

(1) is an adult;

(2) (i) has not been convicted of a felony or of a misdemeanor for which a sentence of imprisonment for more than 1 year has been imposed; or

(ii) if convicted of a crime described in item (i) of this item, has been pardoned or has been granted relief under 18 U.S.C. 925(c);

(3) has not been convicted of a crime involving the possession, use, or distribution of a controlled dangerous substance;

(4) is not presently an alcoholic, addict, or habitual user of a controlled dangerous substance unless the habitual use of the controlled dangerous substance is under legitimate medical direction; and

(5) based on an investigation:

(i) has not exhibited a propensity for violence or instability that may reasonably render the person's possession of a handgun a danger to the person or to another; and

(ii) has good and substantial reason to wear, carry, or transport a handgun, such as a finding that the permit is necessary as a reasonable precaution against apprehended danger.

(b) Applicant under age of 30 years. -- An applicant under the age of 30 years is qualified only if the Secretary finds that the applicant has not been:

(1) committed to a detention, training, or correctional institution for juveniles for longer than 1 year after an adjudication of delinquency by a juvenile court; or

(2) adjudicated delinquent by a juvenile court for:

(i) an act that would be a crime of violence if committed by an adult;

(ii) an act that would be a felony in this State if committed by an adult; or

(iii) an act that would be a misdemeanor in this State that carries a statutory penalty of more than 2 years if committed by an adult.

HISTORY: An. Code 1957, art. 27, 36E(a); 2003, ch. 5, 2.

Now take out the bolded line and see where they'll have discretion in issuing them. Even the "exhibit a propensity for violence" will have to have something backing it up and not just "I don't like anyone having a firearm" It'll go to court every time they turn someone down for that without having convictions or multiple arrests for violent behavior.

IndyGunFreak
07-26-2012, 05:08
Okay, not picking but you seem to be the only one reading it that way, including MD State Police and the courts.

Here's the statute for MD to get a permit:

https://web.lexisnexis.com/research/retrieve?pushme=1&tmpFBSel=&totaldocs=&taggedDocs=&toggleValue=&numDocsChked=0&prefFBSel=0&delformat=FULL&fpDocs=&fpNodeId=&fpCiteReq=&expNewLead=id%3D%22expandedNewLead%22&_m=11279b384c593aea73826ceaab61c889&searchType=&docnum=11&_fmtstr=FULL&_startdoc=11&wchp=dGLbVzV-zSkAb&_md5=0dd0722a3323de13e8a01fc7e8e0e898


Now take out the bolded line and see where they'll have discretion in issuing them. Even the "exhibit a propensity for violence" will have to have something backing it up and not just "I don't like anyone having a firearm" It'll go to court every time they turn someone down for that without having convictions or multiple arrests for violent behavior.

First, I didn't take it as you're picking on me..lol.

Now I see the reasoning behind this making the state "shall issue" after reading the state code.

Hopefully their legislature doesn't change the state code to give the state police broad powers to deny.

IGF

HerrGlock
07-26-2012, 05:17
Hopefully their legislature doesn't change the state code to give the state police broad powers to deny.

IGF

They will change it back or eliminate it entirely for something like "only by order of the governor". It's MD, after all, and basically run by Montgomery, PG and Baltimore counties.

IndyGunFreak
07-26-2012, 05:19
They will change it back or eliminate it entirely for something like "only by order of the governor". It's MD, after all, and basically run by Montgomery, PG and Baltimore counties.

That's what I would suspect as well... I wonder if this this has laid the groundwork on whether a "may issue" system is constitutional?

stephens285
07-26-2012, 13:24
hope MD does pass CCW so that i can visit home someday lol

:rofl: I was thinking the same thing!

cowboywannabe
07-26-2012, 15:36
this is great news but i will wait until the practical application is applied practically before i get all giddy.

some of our long time members here are residents of maryland....maybe they can tell us about how it really goes when they get or dont get their unrestricted carry permit....

swinokur
07-26-2012, 15:41
I applied as soon as the Judge ruled against MD. MD cashed my check and ran my background check but then the Judge issued a stay and it was frozen. I expect on the 8th of Aug when the stay is lifted processing will begin again and I'll get mine at some point. I'll let you know.

EAJuggalo
07-28-2012, 08:27
"But gun opponents such as Vice question why the state should risk the instances in which permit holders have committed gun crimes. Nationally, more than 400 people have been killed by holders of concealed carry licenses in the past few years, he said."


This is a deliberately deceptive statement. The number of deaths includes legally justified self defense shootings.

It's also not a statistic when the time frame is not clearly stated. My immediate thought upon hearing that is how many people have been killed by LEO's in that same time frame.

This is one of the few things stopping me from making a trip to the area, knowing I can't carry once I get there. Hopefully this is a step towards recognition.

swinokur
07-28-2012, 08:35
MD asked the 4CA for another stay since the District Court lifted theirs effective 8-8-12. This is even while their appeal is at the 4CA. If it's granted then MD will stop issuing permits again until the appeal is heard and decided.

They have an uphill battle proving Judicial indiscretion IMO.

unit1069
07-28-2012, 21:42
It certainly appears that a critical mass of Americans are forcing their elected state representatives to comply with the inalienable, God-given right to self-defense.

Looking at a map of CCW states and comparing it to one a decade ago it is certainly encouraging that individuals are leading the way on the issue of self-reliance and responsibility.

I always encourage people I know or meet to exercise their individual Second Amendment right to purchase a firearm and if they've a mind I really encourage them to obtain a CCW license. There is safety in numbers (for our individual constitutional rights). We're just one national election away from losing everything if we don't press our American values to the max.

swinokur
07-29-2012, 03:59
deleted.

professorpinki
07-29-2012, 16:06
I wonder how this may affect their reciprocity agreements (or lack thereof).

swinokur
07-29-2012, 16:08
MD does not recognize ANY state's permit.

Some states do recognize MD's.

Reswob
07-29-2012, 18:06
MD does not recognize ANY state's permit.

Some states do recognize MD's.

Even if that doesn't change, a chance for MD non-res permits would be nice.

Mister_Beefy
07-29-2012, 18:31
hopefully they won't have to pay to settle too many wrongful arrest lawsuits before the LEOs can update their programming.

cowboywannabe
07-29-2012, 21:28
seems one of the ussc judges whom is conservative has helped open the door for states to regulate guns....which might impact ccw as well.

maestro pistolero
07-30-2012, 01:52
seems one of the ussc judges whom is conservative has helped open the door for states to regulate guns....which might impact ccw as well.

Justice Scalia said nothing new. The states absolutely can regulate guns, to a point. Regulation that will withstand scrutiny are bans for felons, and mentally ill; carrying in sensitive places, and carrying dangerous and unusual weapons (read: RPGs). Obviously carrying common defensive weapons in a rude and threatening manner are not protected behavior (waving them around, introducing them into a verbal argument, threatening neighbors).

But a person peaceably going about his or her business with a holstered firearm carried in accordance with state law will be absolutely covered by the second amendment, as it is now in the overwhelming majority of states.

States can regulate the form of carry. (i.e. concealed, but not open-carry, or vice versa). Licensing and training requirements will probably withstand scrutiny as long as they aren't overly burdensome. Like any other fundamental, incorporated civil right, regulations will need to be as narrowly tailored as possible and be tied directly to a government interest. (the government CANNOT have an interest in suppressing a fundamental right).

What states will NOT be able to do is continue to regulate the right out of existence. There MUST be some path for law-abiding, non-prohibited folks to carry a functional (read; loaded) firearm for any lawful purpose. There will be exceptions for what the court calls sensitive places such as courthouses, jails, and secure areas of airports.

Since the state chooses to use a licensing scheme to accommodate the right, Judge Legg was pretty clear that the existence of this fundamental right is "all that's needed" for a person to be issued a license.

The state's appeal raises no new issues and doesn't even allege judicial misconduct (which it must prove to get a new stay), and reads like a perfunctory exercise that rehashes the same old thoroughly discredited arguments that failed in the first place.

Although the good and substantial reason clause is what was struck, the text of the ruling is vividly clear, and the MSP fully understand that in Maryland, this is the end of unbridled discretion for the right to keep and bear arms.

IndyGunFreak
07-30-2012, 10:00
I wonder how this may affect their reciprocity agreements (or lack thereof).

It probably won't in the near future. Assuming shall issue "sticks" in MD... it's probably gonna take some time for CCW'ers to basically show the powers that be, that concealed weapon permits do not turn people into blood thirsty serial killers.

1. You get CCW
2. You act appropriately
3. You change the culture.

vafish
07-30-2012, 18:06
I wonder if MD will issue non-resident permits or have any reciprocity. Not holding my breath.

No reciprocity, but you do not have to be a Maryland resident to apply for a concealed carry permit.

Reswob
07-30-2012, 21:29
No reciprocity, but you do not have to be a Maryland resident to apply for a concealed carry permit.

Just looked it up, $110 is a pretty steep fee just to be able to drive through MD without disarming:wow:

cowboy1964
07-30-2012, 22:51
National Reciprocity. Stop talking about it and do it! Let those states that balk eliminate their CCW altogether.

NEOH212
07-30-2012, 22:59
I wonder if MD will issue non-resident permits or have any reciprocity.


You funny Joe!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

simotek
07-31-2012, 07:39
Just looked it up, $110 is a pretty steep fee just to be able to drive through MD without disarming:wow:

Probably worth it, though. MD is scary. :supergrin:

wjv
07-31-2012, 16:32
This is a deliberately deceptive statement. The number of deaths includes legally justified self defense shootings.

Remarkably there are people out there who think that defending ones self is criminal behavior and that we should all be good little victims and shut up and do what ever the bad guy wants. . .

RGPIII
08-01-2012, 13:47
less than a week left. My paper work is signed notarized and ready to go. Mailing it tonight.

swinokur
08-01-2012, 13:52
Don't bother. 4CA just issued another stay until the appeal is heard in October

vafish
08-01-2012, 16:18
Don't bother. 4CA just issued another stay until the appeal is heard in October

I kind of expected that.

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