Now it turns out the Colorado nutjob had no body armor. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Deaf Smith
07-24-2012, 19:17
RussP Note: I moved these posts into a new thread so as not to distract from the Please consider: More CCWs, instead of less, could minimize such atrocities (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1433867) thread.
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Now it turns out the Colorado nutjob had no body armor. Just commando black gear and a PAST helmet. And he was under the care of a doctor and maybe off his meds (might have been schizophrenic.) A 'victim' is looking to sue his doctors for not monitoring him enough. And... turns out he was on scholarship that paid his tuition plus $26,000 Uncle Sam federal grant! That is how he paid for the guns.

So I guess Obama is right in his case. He didn't do it alone, the government helped him.

So yes, get your CCW cause the more out there the more of a chance to stop such. And the government won't help you.

Deaf

RussP
07-24-2012, 20:34
Now it turns out the Colorado nutjob had no body armor. Just commando black gear and a PAST helmet. And he was under the care of a doctor and maybe off his meds (might have been schizophrenic.) A 'victim' is looking to sue his doctors for not monitoring him enough. Deaf, where did you find that information?

Deaf Smith
07-24-2012, 20:48
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Retailer-who-sold-to-Holmes-getting-backlash-3730881.php

" TacticalGear.com filled an order received on July 2 from Holmes, who allegedly opened fire inside an Aurora, Colo., theater on Friday, killing 12 people. Holmes paid $306.79 for an urban assault vest, two magazine pouches and a tactical knife.

Chief Executive Officer Chad Weinman said despite its name, the urban assault vest is not bulletproof, but is simply a vest made for carrying accessories."

http://www.live5news.com/story/19099951/co-shooting-survivor-threatens-to-sue-studio-theater

"Finally, Karpel told TMZ doctors for Holmes will be sued because they did not properly monitor him. Karpel claims the suspected gunman was on several medications. The claim has not as yet been proven."

But considering he seemed to be doped up at the hearing I bet soon we will find out what all he was on and who his doctors were.

Deaf

RussP
07-25-2012, 06:48
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Retailer-who-sold-to-Holmes-getting-backlash-3730881.php

" TacticalGear.com filled an order received on July 2 from Holmes, who allegedly opened fire inside an Aurora, Colo., theater on Friday, killing 12 people. Holmes paid $306.79 for an urban assault vest, two magazine pouches and a tactical knife.

Chief Executive Officer Chad Weinman said despite its name, the urban assault vest is not bulletproof, but is simply a vest made for carrying accessories."In fairness, it would behoove all to read Mr. Weinman's complete statement here (http://tacticalgear.com/news/colorado-shooting/).http://www.live5news.com/story/19099951/co-shooting-survivor-threatens-to-sue-studio-theater

"Finally, Karpel told TMZ doctors for Holmes will be sued because they did not properly monitor him. Karpel claims the suspected gunman was on several medications. The claim has not as yet been proven."

But considering he seemed to be doped up at the hearing I bet soon we will find out what all he was on and who his doctors were.

DeafDonald Karpel (http://lawyers.justia.com/lawyer/donald-karpel-99846)
Legal Experience: 38 years
Law School: Univ of San Diego School of Law

Jurisdictions: California
9777 Wilshire Blvd
Beverly Hills, CA 90212
(310) 273-8444

Practice Areas
Car Accidents
Injury Law
Medical MalpracticeI wonder, sitting there in his Beverley Hills office, how many others Karpel called before getting one to bite? I have nothing against Beverley Hills lawyers in general. Many years ago I had one on retainer myself. Bob referred to himself as "the New York City Jew attorney in Beverley Hills!" He was brilliant and a pit bull in litigation.

So far, though, Karpel has started a rumor without basis which will become an "Internet FACT."

As far as Holmes' demeanor in court, did any of y'all as a kid ever pretend to be sick to get out of going to school? You'd make the awful facial expressions of a kid with the worst stomach ache ever, moan and groan...

Call me cynical, but I'm waiting for the mental health evals before buying the court appearance as anything other than a hell of a cold, calculated, well rehearsed act.

Deaf Smith
07-25-2012, 11:04
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/

EXCLUSIVE: Movie massacre suspect sent chilling notebook to psychiatrist before attack

Not HIS psychiatrist but it makes one wonder.

Yes we wait till facts come out but normal people don't just say, "hey let's go blow away a movie theater." Nutjobs leave a trail of signs. And the suspicion is he was under the care of psychiatrist.

Maybe those who worked for the university he went to. After all, student healthcare and all that.

Deaf

cowboy1964
07-25-2012, 11:45
If I read "100 round CLIP" one more time....

Fred Hansen
07-25-2012, 12:23
No unobtanium trauma plates? No Klingon force field protection? Not even a Romulan cloaking device?!?!

Strange... the GTers who own--or pretend to own--firearms as a fashion statement, swore to me that that the 150 pound needle dicked wunderkind was immortal.

Imagine my surprise that their assessment of needle dick's vulnerability was FOS. :shocked: :upeyes:

AZ Cat
07-25-2012, 12:35
Funny, but after hearing all of the reports about "bullet proof vests and "body armor" the first thing I thought was that I bet he had a tactical vest with no actual armor. Lots of people buy the vests, only a few actually get armor IMO.

Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2

FireForged
07-25-2012, 16:55
This is exactly why i refuse to subscribe to the "its futile, nothing can be done" mentality that many have been preaching since this terrible event occured. This guy committed a terrible crime yes, but he was just a goof-ball. He was not some super-soldier or hard target tuff guy. If its time to fight for your life then get to it and dont give up.

skyboss_4evr
07-25-2012, 18:21
No unobtanium trauma plates? No Klingon force field protection? Not even a Romulan cloaking device?!?!

Strange... the GTers who own--or pretend to own--firearms as a fashion statement, swore to me that that the 150 pound needle dicked wunderkind was immortal.

Imagine my surprise that their assessment of needle dick's vulnerability was FOS. :shocked: :upeyes:

Outstanding post!

Patchman
07-25-2012, 19:11
Never mind. I'll leave it at what Fred H, AZ Cat and FireForged said.

JW1178
07-25-2012, 19:51
Surprised I am not! When I heard he had "body armor" I took it with a grain of salt because I know how the media loves to exagerate everything.

I have Line-X in the bed of my truck, does that make it an armored vehicle?

Bren
07-25-2012, 19:59
Holmes paid $306.79 for an urban assault vest, two magazine pouches and a tactical knife.

Either he was really crazy, or that was part of his plan for an insanity defnese later. :upeyes:

Sam Spade
07-25-2012, 20:54
I see some jumping to conclusions here. If we go by the single invoice presented as evidence, Holmes had a single-shot rifle, as there were no magazines ordered. Oh, he didn't have ammo either.

Hmmmm. Might he have bought stuff from more than one place?

Hang on, let me grab a link.

ETA: go here http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2012/07/20/mass-shooting-aurora-colorado-movie-theater/5738/


and look at photos 42, 49 and 57. Those aren't anything off the invoice you linked, and bear more than a passing resemblance to a soft vest and an armored leg piece.

r3dot
07-25-2012, 20:57
I very much doubt he is schizophrenic. Very few schizophrenics are violent. A little FYI there. Don't label all mentally ill people as violent killers.

Texas357
07-25-2012, 21:07
I'm going to start referring to all my shirts as body armor.

Also, I need to come up with a good media-worthy rebranding for my pants.

skyboss_4evr
07-25-2012, 21:10
I'm going to start referring to all my shirts as body armor.

Also, I need to come up with a good media-worthy rebranding for my pants.

Tactical, urban assault leggings?

grizman
07-25-2012, 21:29
Anyone else notice the AR had a std 30rnd mag in it, the reports said he had a Beta 100RD mag in and the rifle jammed. It has been reported the shooter then switched to one of the pistols to finish his spree.

So he cleared the malfunction, slapped in a 30 rounder before surrendering?

Fishy?

Sam Spade
07-25-2012, 21:53
Anyone else notice the AR had a std 30rnd mag in it, the reports said he had a Beta 100RD mag in and the rifle jammed. It has been reported the shooter then switched to one of the pistols to finish his spree.

So he cleared the malfunction, slapped in a 30 rounder before surrendering?

Fishy?

No. One witness statement has a bunch of brass hitting her "except when he was reloading". Cop transmissions mention live rounds on the floor. GT cop who was there reports him having more 30 rounders on him when he got hooked.

Misty02
07-25-2012, 23:58
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Retailer-who-sold-to-Holmes-getting-backlash-3730881.php

" TacticalGear.com filled an order received on July 2 from Holmes, who allegedly opened fire inside an Aurora, Colo., theater on Friday, killing 12 people. Holmes paid $306.79 for an urban assault vest, two magazine pouches and a tactical knife.

Chief Executive Officer Chad Weinman said despite its name, the urban assault vest is not bulletproof, but is simply a vest made for carrying accessories."
.

Deaf

Does TacticalGear.com know it was the best he bought from them he wore that day? Did the media misquote the Chief with the comment below? Could he have had a bullet resistant vest under the vest to carry all the accessories he needed?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/20/12854157-aurora-suspect-james-holmes-was-buying-guns-dropping-out-of-graduate-school?lite


He was wearing a black ballistic or bullet-resistant helmet, a ballistic tactical vest with pockets, ballistic leggings, throat and groin protectors, a gas mask and ballistic tactical gloves, Oates said.

Gallium
07-26-2012, 05:45
I'll wait until the PD/prosecuting atty's office releases more information.

I DONT THINK I would have waited were I in that theater to find out if his fittings were bullet resistant.

Chances are, if he and I met in that theater at the same time, I might have been gravely injured or dead, but it would not matter, because I refuse to be knowingly slaughtered or have people around me being slaughtered like chicken for dinner.

and if it's legal, I am armed. Nobody tells off duty police officers to respect property owners rights where those stupid ****ing signs are displayed.

eracer
07-26-2012, 06:10
This is exactly why i refuse to subscribe to the "its futile, nothing can be done" mentality that many have been preaching since this terrible event occured. This guy committed a terrible crime yes, but he was just a goof-ball. He was not some super-soldier or hard target tuff guy. If its time to fight for your life then get to it and dont give up.
Bingo.

eracer
07-26-2012, 06:11
I'm going to start referring to all my shirts as body armor.

Also, I need to come up with a good media-worthy rebranding for my pants.Under Armour?

Oh wait...you were talking about the pants you wear under your underpants...:supergrin:

eracer
07-26-2012, 06:14
No. One witness statement has a bunch of brass hitting her "except when he was reloading". Cop transmissions mention live rounds on the floor. GT cop who was there reports him having more 30 rounders on him when he got hooked.Good God.

How terrifying would it be to lay cowering as brass is raining down upon you and the screams of the dying fill the spaces between gunshots.

Bad enough for a trained soldier caught in an ambush. Incomprehensible for a civilian who just wanted to see a movie that night.

fuzzy03cls
07-26-2012, 08:06
One of the 1st things I said in a past post was that there was always the chance this armor was fake or misrepresented. You wouldn't know until someone started shooting back at the nut.

Eric2340
07-26-2012, 11:19
[B]........................... And... turns out he was on scholarship that paid his tuition plus $26,000 Uncle Sam federal grant! That is how he paid for the guns.

So I guess Obama is right in his case. He didn't do it alone, the government helped him...................................


So at what point do WE the pro-gun oppressed begin to SCREAM for regulation of monitoring of how funds for both scholarship and grants are spent, to make sure they also go ONLY for what they are meant for, EDUCATION!!!

F- 'em, stick it right back to them if they want to be up everyone's rear about all this BS!

No, no liberal assh*les will be all over the news screaming for that, go after the responsible gun owners like us instead!!!

:steamed::steamed::steamed::steamed::steamed:

Eric2340
07-26-2012, 11:22
.............. GT cop who was there reports him having more 30 rounders on him when he got hooked.


Link to the post or thread where GT cop talks about this?


Thanks -

RussP
07-26-2012, 12:13
Link to the post or thread where GT cop talks about this?


Thanks -There are two threads in CT.Not good - at LEAST 14 dead in Aurora Colorado mass shooting (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1433238)

Look for what ain't right, Aurora Chief said one thing was wrong... (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1433606)Before going over there, please read this posted in both threads:Folks, I need to go all MODERATOR on y'all for a moment. This is important.

I don't want to offend anyone, but there is a gag order on this case.

Cochese is doing an excellent job of noting in his posts that anything he posts has already been published in one format or another by various media outlets.

Let's be certain here, and on other forums where we post, that we neither state nor imply information and facts we may post are coming from or have been confirmed by anyone involved in the response to or investigation of this event.

Yes, we are all responsible here on Cop Talk, but some snake in the grass, ******* attorney (and they have already started coming out from under their rocks) would love to find someone violating the judge's order.

Be very, very careful, please. Remember, we have to cover each other's back. No one should be posting anything they cannot post a media link to.

Thanks...and please, Stay Safe!In other words, please don't go into these threads asking questions that those there on July 20 cannot answer at this time.

Misty02
07-26-2012, 12:28
Iím not so sure that someone that booby trapped their apartment the way the Chief describes was not set up to cause the most damage and destruction possible while taking reasonable precautions to ensure he stayed in the game for as long as he could.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/dateline/48280375/#48280375 (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/dateline/48280375/#48280375)

There is a comment about the shooter wearing armor to which the Chief agrees. He would have known by the time of this interview whether or not the armor was real. I doubt he would have agreed to that statement if it was not true.

BTW, the Chiefís daughter was also at a Batman premier in another Aurora movie theater.


.

Deaf Smith
07-27-2012, 15:55
Well here it is...

Batman shooter was seeing psychiatrist who specialized in schizophrenia

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/27/batman-shooter-was-seeing-psychiatrist-who-specialized-in-schizophrenia/

Told you guys so.

Deaf

r3dot
07-27-2012, 16:48
OK, and? Just because a doctor specializes in a certain area, doesn't mean they only see patients for that specific reason. Dr. Fenton simply heads the mental services at the college.

Very few schizophrenics, and I mean VERY few, have ever committed a random murder. It is also very rare for a schizophrenic to be violent.

I will also add that it is very doubtful for him to be schizophrenic, because there is damn near no way he would be in such a prestigious schooling program. Schizophrenics of a high level simply do not have the ability to concentrate for more than a few moments at a time. Their mind is constantly running.

Gallium
07-27-2012, 17:17
OK, and? Just because a doctor specializes in a certain area, doesn't mean they only see patients for that specific reason. Dr. Fenton simply heads the mental services at the college.

Very few schizophrenics, and I mean VERY few, have ever committed a random murder. It is also very rare for a schizophrenic to be violent.

I will also add that it is very doubtful for him to be schizophrenic, because there is damn near no way he would be in such a prestigious schooling program. Schizophrenics of a high level simply do not have the ability to concentrate for more than a few moments at a time. Their mind is constantly running.


Do you have numbers? One in 100-120 of the population is schizophrenic.

Sam Spade
07-27-2012, 17:25
I will also add that it is very doubtful for him to be schizophrenic, because there is damn near no way he would be in such a prestigious schooling program. Schizophrenics of a high level simply do not have the ability to concentrate for more than a few moments at a time. Their mind is constantly running.

The average age of onset is 18-20 for male schizophrenics. He's right in the landing pattern, and the sudden meltdown in his academics---from acceptance into a highly competitive program to failing his orals in about a year---gives some more evidence.

If he *is* off his rocker, paranoid schizophrenia fits pretty well. (Note that it doesn't matter whether or not most schizophrenics are violent. The question is "what disease to most mass shooters suffer from"?)

r3dot
07-27-2012, 17:29
The average age of onset is 18-20 for male schizophrenics. He's right in the landing pattern, and the sudden meltdown in his academics---from acceptance into a highly competitive program to failing his orals in about a year---gives some more evidence.

If he *is* off his rocker, paranoid schizophrenia fits pretty well. (Note that it doesn't matter whether or not most schizophrenics are violent. The question is "what disease to most mass shooters suffer from"?)

I haven't followed the story much. I wasn't aware of his failing status in school.

Sam Spade
07-27-2012, 17:43
I haven't followed the story much. I wasn't aware of his failing status in school.

The school won't comment, citing privacy. What we do know is that the program has class work in year one, followed by an oral exam and then research for several more years. He left the program after orals; one source "speaking on condition of anonymity" has said he failed the board. The beginning of his purchases (May-ish) relates to the period when most universities' programs are in orals.

It's not the only possible explanation, but it is one that fits. No doubt we'll get the psych evaluation results as part of the court process.

Patchman
07-27-2012, 17:57
Do you have numbers? One in 100-120 of the population is schizophrenic.

Those damned 1-percenters...

Gallium
07-27-2012, 18:22
Those damned 1-percenters...


Is this the shrink teacher or the LE dude from the middle east? :supergrin:

H&K 4 LIFE
07-27-2012, 18:56
Everyone is now seemingly interested in who this guy was, what his (social, academic, medical, psychiatric) history is, and to figure out exactly why he might have chosen to orchestrate an outright assault on some innocent people watching a movie.

Think about if you happened to be in that theater at that time... wouldn't that "why" prove as being irrelevant to your survival?

When he is actively killing people, who really cares if this idiot didn't get a gold star in school or was having a bad day? The only thing needed to be known about him is that he is a threat worth shooting until he stops.

He is just another nutjob, intent on doing harm to others, amongst a history of other similar nutjobs. The only question I am forced to ask myself from all this is "Are you prepared for the next nutjob?"

Sam Spade
07-27-2012, 20:57
The only question I am forced to ask myself from all this is "Are you prepared for the next nutjob?"

I have no problem with this POV.

Professionally, though, I'd like to get further ahead of the power curve. So, yeah, I'm looking for whatever information I can get on motives, mindsets and so on.

Glock_9mm
07-27-2012, 21:56
Paging Mr Holder....Mr Eric Holder to the white courtesy phone please....

Patchman
07-28-2012, 05:18
When he is actively killing people, who really cares if this idiot didn't get a gold star in school or was having a bad day? The only thing needed to be known about him is that he is a threat worth shooting until he stops.


You're right of course about this. When the threat is imminent, you have to stop the threat NOW (or leave the kill-zone NOW). At that point in time, who cares about the threat's motivation, what the neighbor's dog is telling him to do, etc...



Everyone is now seemingly interested in who this guy was, what his (social, academic, medical, psychiatric) history is, and to figure out exactly why...

People watching. Understanding their likes, dislikes, motivation, fears, mindsets etc... That's fascinating stuff!

eracer
07-28-2012, 05:27
Paging Mr Holder....Mr Eric Holder to the white courtesy phone please....I've been guilty of making some pretty obscure 'Six Degrees to Kevin Bacon' comments here, but I confess yours has me especially puzzled, as I can't for the life of me figure out Eric Holder is is any real way linked to this situation.

Perhaps you can simplify the correlation for a dummy like me?

steveksux
07-28-2012, 07:15
You're right of course about this. When the threat is imminent, you have to stop the threat NOW (or leave the kill-zone NOW). At that point in time, who cares about the threat's motivation, what the neighbor's dog is telling him to do, etc...
Exactly....
People watching. Understanding their likes, dislikes, motivation, fears, mindsets etc... That's fascinating stuff!And maybe useful... what if someone saw something that could have alerted them to this sort of thing earlier? Maybe it can be prevented once in a while. I don't delude myself into thinking it can always be foreseen. The world is full of plenty crazy people, most of whom will never do anything like this. But is there something about this guy that's different, and is that something in common with other mass shooters, and is that something NOT present in the hordes of crazy people out there that don't become mass killers.

That something would be the Holy Grail of indicators to look out for. Maybe there isn't anything to find. Its worth looking to be sure...

Randy

Patchman
07-28-2012, 11:08
Is this the shrink teacher or the LE dude from the middle east? :supergrin:

For the record, it's North Africa, not Middle East.

MacG22
07-28-2012, 11:28
The receipts don't say what he wore into the theater, only what he purchased. According to the Chief of Police, he had armor.

Here's an info graphic released that details what he had to the best of available knowledge. Not the best piece but I've seen it cited by the AP and others now.

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/na0725_denvershooting15001.gif

Gallium
07-28-2012, 12:05
For the record, it's North Africa, not Middle East.


I was jest checking to see if you was paying attention....looks like I am headed that way sometime soon. Apart from any hot looking Ethopian chics with those fantastic uh backsides, tiny waists and ample bosoms...you want anything? (:supergrin: Yah, I know where Ethopia is, that is not where I am going, but I may be able to convince 2-3 to come back with me stateside...the plan is we saunter across the border in the vicinity of Rio Grande somewhere...)

On topic, did we resolve if he did, or did not have armor on his person at the time of his mad rampage?

Fred Hansen
07-28-2012, 12:38
The receipts don't say what he wore into the theater, only what he purchased. According to the Chief of Police, he had armor.

Here's an info graphic released that details what he had to the best of available knowledge. Not the best piece but I've seen it cited by the AP and others now.

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/na0725_denvershooting15001.gifJudging by that graphic, even an A-10 Warthog would have no chance against ol' Sherlock. I guess we just got lucky that he surrendered before America had to.

I have some kevlar chainsaw chaps, and some boots sewn with kevlar thread. I guess the anti-gun--former NYPD--chief in Aurora considers them "armor" too. I guess I'm just a menace to society.

Although, in my own defense, I've never owned a skateboard. or the helmet, gloves, and knee/elbow pads to go with it. So I have that going for me.

MacG22
07-28-2012, 14:54
Judging by that graphic, even an A-10 Warthog would have no chance against ol' Sherlock. I guess we just got lucky that he surrendered before America had to.

I have some kevlar chainsaw chaps, and some boots sewn with kevlar thread. I guess the anti-gun--former NYPD--chief in Aurora considers them "armor" too. I guess I'm just a menace to society.

Although, in my own defense, I've never owned a skateboard. or the helmet, gloves, and knee/elbow pads to go with it. So I have that going for me.

You miss the point.

The point is that he was likely prepared in a different way than just the one or two internet receipts suggest, which is what some are doing.

We will know more in time, but we don't know it now. It may turn out that an LCP could have foiled this whole thing, or it may turn out that he was very well armored.

It would be appropriate to keep all of our certainty and crowing about what we think we know at bay until we really know things.

Remember also that there are more than a few shootouts on record where even unarmored guys took LOTS of hits and kept returning fire. I keep seeing people suggest that if he was just shot the "coward would have fallen down". And yet evidence suggests otherwise.

There are only three ways that a gunshot stops a person:

1. It mentally scares them and they cease the attack and/or retreat.

2. They hemorrhage blood until they lose consciousness (can take 10 seconds or more even with major organ tissue damage).

3. The central nervous system is destroyed... the only real way to just "turn the lights out". And this is a difficult thing to accomplish.

There is no guarantee that a firefight would have caused less people to die in this. I think it's good to process it, think about what we would have done, and to be realistic.

But let's also not suffer from a messiah complex and pretend there was a clean and quick way to end this situation, even if we had been armed and motivated to engage him.

Fred Hansen
07-28-2012, 15:03
We know he is a gutless coward who murdered a dozen innocent people--while destroying the lives of countless others--who gave up at the first hint of a whisper of the arrival of armed resistance. So much so, that the police barely needed a harsh word in order to take superman into custody.

wprebeck
07-28-2012, 15:22
We know he is a gutless coward who murdered a dozen innocent people--while destroying the lives of countless others--who gave up at the first hint of a whisper of the arrival of armed resistance. So much so, that the police barely needed a harsh word in order to take superman into custody.

Were you there?

Fred Hansen
07-28-2012, 15:31
Were you there?Nope. Not one shot fired at him, or the police. Just taken into custody after the cops noticed that his skaterboy duds weren't regulation S.W.A.T. gear. Russ even started a thread about it.

Gallium
07-28-2012, 15:54
You miss the point.

The point is that he was likely prepared in a different way than just the one or two internet receipts suggest, which is what some are doing.

We will know more in time, but we don't know it now. It may turn out that an LCP could have foiled this whole thing, or it may turn out that he was very well armored.

It would be appropriate to keep all of our certainty and crowing about what we think we know at bay until we really know things.

Remember also that there are more than a few shootouts on record where even unarmored guys took LOTS of hits and kept returning fire. I keep seeing people suggest that if he was just shot the "coward would have fallen down". And yet evidence suggests otherwise.

There are only three ways that a gunshot stops a person:

1. It mentally scares them and they cease the attack and/or retreat.

2. They hemorrhage blood until they lose consciousness (can take 10 seconds or more even with major organ tissue damage).

3. The central nervous system is destroyed... the only real way to just "turn the lights out". And this is a difficult thing to accomplish.

There is no guarantee that a firefight would have caused less people to die in this. I think it's good to process it, think about what we would have done, and to be realistic.

But let's also not suffer from a messiah complex and pretend there was a clean and quick way to end this situation, even if we had been armed and motivated to engage him.


Yes, ending these things are not predictable, but as has been the case with the majority of these types of attacks, a real show of force is often enough to change direction or bring cessation to their acts.

No, I was not there, but I have studied "active shootings", and hold paper + training + real live experience of this.

Deaf Smith
07-28-2012, 20:54
Everyone is now seemingly interested in who this guy was, what his (social, academic, medical, psychiatric) history is, and to figure out exactly why he might have chosen to orchestrate an outright assault on some innocent people watching a movie.

Thirty or forty years ago all such 'nutjobs' were INSTITUTIONALIZED. In fact most people declared insane, a danger to others/themselves or not, were institutionalized.

BUT the law was changed and they let an awful lot of them out if the shrink 'thought/felt/judged/guessed' they were not a danger to themselves or others.

And that is why we have so many homeless, why we have nuts push people in front of subways, and, I feel to an extent, killings like this one in Colorado.

And that is why we try to find out WHY they did what they did. We need to re-think our mental illness laws as they relate to institutionalization.

We don't need gun control... we need nut control.

Deaf

G26S239
07-29-2012, 08:08
OK, and? Just because a doctor specializes in a certain area, doesn't mean they only see patients for that specific reason. Dr. Fenton simply heads the mental services at the college.

Very few schizophrenics, and I mean VERY few, have ever committed a random murder. It is also very rare for a schizophrenic to be violent.

I will also add that it is very doubtful for him to be schizophrenic, because there is damn near no way he would be in such a prestigious schooling program. Schizophrenics of a high level simply do not have the ability to concentrate for more than a few moments at a time. Their mind is constantly running.
Richard Chase and Jim Gordon come to mind. From what little I know of schizophrenia though it would seem to be rare for someone afflicted to plan so well.

JuneyBooney
07-29-2012, 23:20
If I read "100 round CLIP" one more time....

All I saw was a 30-40 round magazine/clip in the Ar in the weapon on the ground. I would bet there was no body armor and no 100 round clip/magazine/

In reality 12 people is not a lot of people. There are traffic accidents with more killed at one time but the liberals want a "battle cry" to sound for more gun control and in reality it was a lunatic gone wild.

JuneyBooney
07-29-2012, 23:23
Well here it is...

Batman shooter was seeing psychiatrist who specialized in schizophrenia

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/27/batman-shooter-was-seeing-psychiatrist-who-specialized-in-schizophrenia/

Told you guys so.

Deaf

That is a nasty illness when they are off their meds. :upeyes:

Deaf Smith
07-30-2012, 10:29
That is a nasty illness when they are off their meds. :upeyes:


And that is why I feel institutionalization is the answer when they are diagnosed with schizophrenia.

There are way to many of them on the streets now. And that is the real problem.

Deaf

Patchman
07-30-2012, 14:17
That is a nasty illness when they are off their meds. :upeyes:

That seems to be the problem. Many of these mentally ill lack the family structure to ensure they stay on the meds. And once by themselves, it comes down to themselves (they already have mental illness) deciding they don't need their meds.

We are very close to a family who have a child with this disease. One parent is a MD and even that parent is at wits end. Also I can say is that I tell myself "but for the grace of god, that could be us..."

But on the other hand, too many LEOs have been seriously injured and/or killed by the mentally ill... :steamed:

wprebeck
07-30-2012, 14:42
Nope. Not one shot fired at him, or the police. Just taken into custody after the cops noticed that his skaterboy duds weren't regulation S.W.A.T. gear. Russ even started a thread about it.

I'm aware of the thread Russ started. But, you are taking the word of the media at face value. I've never figured out why people do that - you know how ignorant the media is, yet when it fits an agenda, people take it as the Holy Gospel.

The point is - we have two GT members who WERE there, and they've not said "Boo" about a single detail. How about, instead of making assumptions, you wait for the "rest of the story" and find out what really happened...instead of a media version.

RussP
07-30-2012, 15:37
All I saw was a 30-40 round magazine/clip in the Ar in the weapon on the ground. I would bet there was no body armor and no 100 round clip/magazine/ I might take the bet on the armor, but I'll definitely take the bet on the magazine.In reality 12 people is not a lot of people. You have said outrageous things before, but that may be your most despicable yet. There are traffic accidents with more killed at one time but the liberals want a "battle cry" to sound for more gun control and in reality it was a lunatic gone wild.The difference, though, is that the vehicle fatalities are accidental. These shootings are not. HUGE difference.

RussP
07-30-2012, 15:49
I'm aware of the thread Russ started. But, you are taking the word of the media at face value. I've never figured out why people do that - you know how ignorant the media is, yet when it fits an agenda, people take it as the Holy Gospel.

The point is - we have two GT members who WERE there, and they've not said "Boo" about a single detail. How about, instead of making assumptions, you wait for the "rest of the story" and find out what really happened...instead of a media version.The GT members have confirmed some of the details published by the media.

Gallium
07-30-2012, 16:13
I might take the bet on the armor, but I'll definitely take the bet on the magazine.You have said outrageous things before, but that may be your most despicable yet. The difference, though, is that the vehicle fatalities are accidental. These shootings are not. HUGE difference.


I am not riding to his defense...I think JB has some sort of ...neurological deficiency that inhibits his ability to accurately express himself.

Not sure how anyone, and in particular anyone who makes claim to be a former law enforcement officer would state that even ONE LIFE lost at the hands of a maniacal gunman is "not much".

We either need a dunce cap here, or a time out chair in the corner. Sometimes it seems like we need both (I assume I can make reservations for myself? :cool:)

- G

RussP
07-30-2012, 16:22
We either need a dunce cap here, or a time out chair in the corner. Sometimes it seems like we need both (I assume I can make reservations for myself? :cool:)

- GYours is a standing reservation...:rofl::wavey::tongueout::whistling:

Fred Hansen
07-30-2012, 16:54
The GT members have confirmed some of the details published by the media.They've also posted the recordings of police and fire department dispatch, which contain zero evidence of, or reference to, a gun battle between Sherlock and the police.

I also have no reason to believe that the anti-gun media would restrain themselves from immediately publishing/broadcasting the story of how only the police could bring to bear enough force to bring down such an immortal adversary. Also, given the response timeline, Sherlock couldn't have expended all the ammo he is said to have had at the scene. Please don't ask me to believe that all four guns catastrophically malfunctioned. Not believable. Someone who truly believed they were ensconced in the unobtanium armor being hyped, would have been happy to engage any and all who stood in their way. People with guns showed up, and Sherlock's tiny little twig and berries shriveled up into his yellow belly.

And given that Sherlock stripped himself of all possible tactical advantages (save for the element of surprise/chaos) which a trained person could have exploited, I can deduce that he is exactly what he seems to be: a delusional useless gutless little ****bag.

A delusional useless gutless little **** bag who by the way, wants nothing more than for people to perceive him as a larger than life super-villian blessed with extraordinary powers. Some are more than willing to throw that bone to the useless little ****bag. Not me.

If someone were to sit behind Sherlock at his trial, and pop a balloon next to his ear at a random moment in the trial, everyone would get to see the real ****bag... His carefully crafted "crazy" would vanish, as he writhed on the floor in a puddle of his own piss, while begging for mercy.

But no one is going to do that; we will instead be subjected to decades of this sad little clown being featured in every possible aspect of our completely morally bankrupt--and justice free--legal system. The piss he does sit in will be the result of his wetting his diaper, from laughing so hard at us.

And the media et al. will still be admonishing people to stampede like sheep, and try to outrun bullets, rather than fight. Again, not me. Not gonna do it. I have my immortal soul to consider.

wprebeck
07-30-2012, 18:32
I guess you understand there's a difference between laying down like a ***** and starting a gunfight? From what I've read, he didn't have a lot of choice in the matter, what with guns being pointed at him and all. But, its not like he just swooned and fainted at the sight of the police.

I never said there was a gun battle, nor did I mean to imply that one existed. I do think there's a bit more to the guy's arrest than him dropping everything at the sight of the police, though.

MacG22
07-30-2012, 19:07
They've also posted the recordings of police and fire department dispatch, which contain zero evidence of, or reference to, a gun battle between Sherlock and the police.

I also have no reason to believe that the anti-gun media would restrain themselves from immediately publishing/broadcasting the story of how only the police could bring to bear enough force to bring down such an immortal adversary. Also, given the response timeline, Sherlock couldn't have expended all the ammo he is said to have had at the scene. Please don't ask me to believe that all four guns catastrophically malfunctioned. Not believable. Someone who truly believed they were ensconced in the unobtanium armor being hyped, would have been happy to engage any and all who stood in their way. People with guns showed up, and Sherlock's tiny little twig and berries shriveled up into his yellow belly.

And given that Sherlock stripped himself of all possible tactical advantages (save for the element of surprise/chaos) which a trained person could have exploited, I can deduce that he is exactly what he seems to be: a delusional useless gutless little ****bag.

A delusional useless gutless little **** bag who by the way, wants nothing more than for people to perceive him as a larger than life super-villian blessed with extraordinary powers. Some are more than willing to throw that bone to the useless little ****bag. Not me.

If someone were to sit behind Sherlock at his trial, and pop a balloon next to his ear at a random moment in the trial, everyone would get to see the real ****bag... His carefully crafted "crazy" would vanish, as he writhed on the floor in a puddle of his own piss, while begging for mercy.

But no one is going to do that; we will instead be subjected to decades of this sad little clown being featured in every possible aspect of our completely morally bankrupt--and justice free--legal system. The piss he does sit in will be the result of his wetting his diaper, from laughing so hard at us.

And the media et al. will still be admonishing people to stampede like sheep, and try to outrun bullets, rather than fight. Again, not me. Not gonna do it. I have my immortal soul to consider.


There's a lot of emotion in your writing here. And it's clear you're not in an objective place on this issue.

I have no issue with you choosing to fight. Good on you, so long as you're wise and careful in the moment.

But I don't see much value in your moralizing on it. You're moralizing the "fight" just like the liberal side is "moralizing" about anyone who might have fought would have just pulled a gun and started shooting like a crazy person.

This moralizing bugs me on all sides.

Fact is, everyone in that theater was in a different position. Some could had families or others to care for, some were alone. Some were close enough to intervene, some were way too far away.

It also doesn't do good to paint him as a coward. He may well have been. He may well also have been crazy, or drugged, or any number of states that make him dangerous as hell. You don't have the facts of this case, and you cannot say one way or the other.

I have spoken with officers that were there. In fact, I talked with the first guy on scene. Shook his hand and told him I heard the dispatch and how proud I was of the job they did. He told me that he couldn't talk about the case, but that we would be very surprised by what comes out over time. He said it was a horrifying scene and the toughest guys you'd ever met were wrestling with it all the same.

I have spoken with a friend of mine who was in the theater next to that where the shots came through, who got out unharmed and then helped carry bleeding people across the parking lot. He said it was utterly confusing and the adrenaline and "fight or flight" response was unreal. That he didn't even notice his hands shaking so much that "even if I'd had a gun I don't know that I could have shot it well. I wasn't trained for that." And that wasn't even staring the guy in the eyes. (Btw that same friend is now researching adrenaline-based training programs available for civilians as a way to prepare for this kind of thing).

You can moralize however you like about going in there and being the hero and fighting all the bad guys. And really, if you were there, I wish with all my heart you would have. I'd like to think I would have, and I was SUPPOSED to be there with my wife that night, in that main theater, and we decided not to go last minute. That theater is our theater and I had my daughter in theater #9 just a few weeks before watching "Brave". So don't think I haven't thought about "what I would have done." But it does no good to talk tough and pretend to be superman. Based upon where I always sit in that theater, I would have been compromised by the tear gas completely (would have landed practically in my lap). I would have had my wife with me. There are so many factors in that moment that are different from what I've ever trained for that I don't know what would have happened.

Maybe I could have been superman. But I also might have been Icarus, and that's the reality of it. Those are the facts. The chemical cocktail in that situation is immense, and everything happens so fast. Being objective about it, and not emotional or thumping our holsters, is the only real way to learn from this

Cavalry Doc
07-30-2012, 19:23
In fairness, it would behoove all to read Mr. Weinman's complete statement here (http://tacticalgear.com/news/colorado-shooting/).I wonder, sitting there in his Beverley Hills office, how many others Karpel called before getting one to bite? I have nothing against Beverley Hills lawyers in general. Many years ago I had one on retainer myself. Bob referred to himself as "the New York City Jew attorney in Beverley Hills!" He was brilliant and a pit bull in litigation.

So far, though, Karpel has started a rumor without basis which will become an "Internet FACT."

As far as Holmes' demeanor in court, did any of y'all as a kid ever pretend to be sick to get out of going to school? You'd make the awful facial expressions of a kid with the worst stomach ache ever, moan and groan...

Call me cynical, but I'm waiting for the mental health evals before buying the court appearance as anything other than a hell of a cold, calculated, well rehearsed act.

There is actually a system for determining nonorganic etiology. It does not prove lying, but it does prove that it's not real. Most psych profiles are designed to detect altering of the exam. Not my area of expertise, but I am assured by a friend that is both a psychiatrist and an attorney, that they are pretty good at picking up turkeys.

Physical ailments, I am very good at picking up the BS artists. We used to have fun with guys faking back pain. There are the standard Waddell signs, and we used to see who could make up the funniest one. Things like telling them that the nerves of lumbar spine go straight into the brain, and the closest nerve we can test off of the brain distance wise is the optic nerve, and in some people with bad back pain, they will experience a sudden increase in their back pain with bright lights, then shine a light in their eyes, watch them grimace, cry out in pain, and grab their back.

Tagged and bagged, No PT, profile = breath at your own pace and distance today, see me again tomorrow, and if you lie to me again, or don't show, I'll file Article 115 charges. Worked every time. Even when I did have to file charges. Some guys were just dumb, but really hurt. Exaggerating a physical exam is a dangerous act, for the provider and the patient. People can get hurt that way.

After a while, people forget which lie they told, and are smoked. In this case, I'm just hoping for a quick needle. I have no doubt I will not get what I hope for.

Misty02
07-31-2012, 07:20
I guess you understand there's a difference between laying down like a ***** and starting a gunfight? From what I've read, he didn't have a lot of choice in the matter, what with guns being pointed at him and all. But, its not like he just swooned and fainted at the sight of the police.

I never said there was a gun battle, nor did I mean to imply that one existed. I do think there's a bit more to the guy's arrest than him dropping everything at the sight of the police, though.

Multiple rifles and pistols aimed at him all at once? Even the craziest person out there may decide to give up at that point, unless the end they wanted was suicide by cop.
.

Misty02
07-31-2012, 08:37
I have spoken with a friend of mine who was in the theater next to that where the shots came through, who got out unharmed and then helped carry bleeding people across the parking lot. He said it was utterly confusing and the adrenaline and "fight or flight" response was unreal. That he didn't even notice his hands shaking so much that "even if I'd had a gun I don't know that I could have shot it well. I wasn't trained for that." And that wasn't even staring the guy in the eyes. (Btw that same friend is now researching adrenaline-based training programs available for civilians as a way to prepare for this kind of thing).



Iím taking one of those in September (2 day class), but even that is not the same. Weíll be working through carjacking, home invasion and various other scenarios were we will be taught to work around buildings, vehicles, people, etc while using our firearm. It will include H2H and transition to deadly force. In lieu of real firearms these will be done with airsoft (first time for me during a professional shooting class). The idea is to test reactions while producing stress, mostly stress induced by pain or fear of pain.

Every class I have taken from this instructor has been top notch. Yes, weíll have to fight through pain (the class introduction even warns us about it) but every student in that class knows it is not a life-death situation and even the level of pain will not be one that creates permanent injuries. Donít get me wrong, I donít like pain at all. First day will be instructions and working through things. Second day will be a faceoff with the instructors in a series of realistic deadly force scenarios putting to practice what was learned the first day. I much rather go up against the instructors than either of my boys that would be there with me taking the class, at least for the H2H part.

If your friend is willing to take a trip to Florida, perhaps he can attend these classes. Like I said, this instructor is better than fantastic. This is the description of the class: http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?31546-Steet-Survival-Force-on-Force-Sept-8th-and-9th&p=437488#post437488 (http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?31546-Steet-Survival-Force-on-Force-Sept-8th-and-9th&p=437488#post437488) Iím sure there are other good instructors elsewhere, but this one I know and Iím willing to recommend to others.

.

MacG22
07-31-2012, 13:50
Iím taking one of those in September (2 day class), but even that is not the same. Weíll be working through carjacking, home invasion and various other scenarios were we will be taught to work around buildings, vehicles, people, etc while using our firearm. It will include H2H and transition to deadly force. In lieu of real firearms these will be done with airsoft (first time for me during a professional shooting class). The idea is to test reactions while producing stress, mostly stress induced by pain or fear of pain.

Every class I have taken from this instructor has been top notch. Yes, weíll have to fight through pain (the class introduction even warns us about it) but every student in that class knows it is not a life-death situation and even the level of pain will not be one that creates permanent injuries. Donít get me wrong, I donít like pain at all. First day will be instructions and working through things. Second day will be a faceoff with the instructors in a series of realistic deadly force scenarios putting to practice what was learned the first day. I much rather go up against the instructors than either of my boys that would be there with me taking the class, at least for the H2H part.

If your friend is willing to take a trip to Florida, perhaps he can attend these classes. Like I said, this instructor is better than fantastic. This is the description of the class: http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?31546-Steet-Survival-Force-on-Force-Sept-8th-and-9th&p=437488#post437488 (http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?31546-Steet-Survival-Force-on-Force-Sept-8th-and-9th&p=437488#post437488) Iím sure there are other good instructors elsewhere, but this one I know and Iím willing to recommend to others.

.

Great recommendation. I really appreciate it. I'll pass it along to him, and also look into it myself.

COLDSTEEL165
08-01-2012, 02:07
Why was his Dr.'s report not pulled up when he bought the guns.? Bad background checking etc

Cavalry Doc
08-01-2012, 04:38
Why was his Dr.'s report not pulled up when he bought the guns.? Bad background checking etc

Not sure, but I think you have to be adjudicated as mentally deficient in order for something to end up in a background check.

There may be some trouble for the psychiatrist. Who knows, thee are still quite a few unknowns in this story.

MacG22
08-01-2012, 12:49
Not sure, but I think you have to be adjudicated as mentally deficient in order for something to end up in a background check.

There may be some trouble for the psychiatrist. Who knows, thee are still quite a few unknowns in this story.

Right, and there's a huge issue here about what right doctors have to add to your record and when.

Ex: You're getting a divorce and have mandatory counseling as a part of a custody proceeding-- can you not buy any firearms during this period? What type of a system is good enough to only put in SOME types of issues, and under what standards of evidence, but also excludes others? How much authority do we give this system?

To me one of the most important debates that can come out of this whole ungodly mess is about the nature of mental illness, the laws of involuntary mental treatment and incarceration, and due process for those with mental disorders. This is the talk we should have been having all along but because it is a hard, dark, and complex topic they instead just start talking about "guns".

Deaf Smith
08-01-2012, 17:32
To me the ONLY reason they should be able to add someone to the NICS list is if a shrink has certified they have a VIOLENT mental disorder. And yes, the Batman nutjob qualified.

They are now finding out he had flags out before for his behavior.

Deaf

wprebeck
08-02-2012, 02:33
Mac made another good point -

I've never been in combat, although I have a decent amount of training from work over the years. Most officers do, and yet, some still freeze when it comes time to use deadly force. This has been the topic of many a thread in coptalk, with the Dinkheller video being the primary example of not using force when necessary.

Fact is, I don't know how I'd react in this situation, since I've never been in it. I'd like to think I'd react how I've been trained, but even that takes a backseat if my kids are present. I'm looking for ways to disengage, not get into a shootout. If with the wife (also an officer, for those who don't know), I'd pole to believe we'd attempt to handle business as best we could. But, I don't know exactly how I'd react...

Those with combat experience or prior shootings would likely do better - as they'be already done it and know what to expect. I don't expect that I'd freeze up, but I won't know until I do it.

walt cowan
08-02-2012, 07:10
a .22 short could have stop him.

Cavalry Doc
08-02-2012, 08:26
a .22 short could have stop him.

:dunno: Why even post that?

Deaf Smith
08-02-2012, 10:39
Now it turns out the campus cops KNEW he was having problems but when he left THEY DIDN'T TELL THE CITY COPS.

And yes, looks like his 'therapist' knew to.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/02/psychiatrist-warning-about-holmes-ignored-when-dropped-out/

Deaf

CA Escapee
08-02-2012, 12:24
I read that this morning. From the first information presented about this I came away thinking it would be easy to look at this and say it looks like they knew he could be a problem, but if he's not a student here, he's no longer our problem.

Why didn't they notify the P.D.? Doctor/patient privilege? Once he left school was he no longer their patient? Could they have given the P.D. a heads up by saying we can't go into detail, but watch this guy. And, he could have been a problem on their campus, but not out on the streets?

If this is true, it seems that they really dropped the ball, or laws need to change.

Bill

Glock_9mm
08-02-2012, 18:16
Because it is a lot easier to do nothing, than it is do do something.....pretty much the world we live in these days. Now it appears the shrink is no longer with CU, hmmm, lets keep distancing ourselves. I bet there is more that is going to come out about this.

I read that this morning. From the first information presented about this I came away thinking it would be easy to look at this and say it looks like they knew he could be a problem, but if he's not a student here, he's no longer our problem.

Why didn't they notify the P.D.? Doctor/patient privilege? Once he left school was he no longer their patient? Could they have given the P.D. a heads up by saying we can't go into detail, but watch this guy. And, he could have been a problem on their campus, but not out on the streets?

If this is true, it seems that they really dropped the ball, or laws need to change.

Bill

Patchman
08-02-2012, 18:32
Why didn't they notify the P.D.? Doctor/patient privilege? Once he left school was he no longer their patient? Could they have given the P.D. a heads up by saying we can't go into detail, but watch this guy.

From a practical view, why should this problem be passed on to local LE?

The school tells the local PD and the school is now absolved from all further responsibilities? (If anything, it was the school that drove him over the edge when their professor(s) gave him a "F" in his test. WTF happened to "grade inflation" and the well known 'gentlemen's "C"'?)).

And after the school gave the local PD a "heads up," what should the local PD do?

Ignore the "heads up?" Take the guy into the police station and give him a stern "we're watching you..." LEO following him 24/7 indefinitely? Detain him indefinitely based on pre-crime prevention?

Mental issues shouldn't involve LE unless the threat is apparent and imminent.

Jon_R
08-02-2012, 18:40
What law are you specifically wanting to be changed?


I read that this morning. From the first information presented about this I came away thinking it would be easy to look at this and say it looks like they knew he could be a problem, but if he's not a student here, he's no longer our problem.

Why didn't they notify the P.D.? Doctor/patient privilege? Once he left school was he no longer their patient? Could they have given the P.D. a heads up by saying we can't go into detail, but watch this guy. And, he could have been a problem on their campus, but not out on the streets?

If this is true, it seems that they really dropped the ball, or laws need to change.

Bill

Deaf Smith
08-02-2012, 20:48
What law are you specifically wanting to be changed?

1. If a person is diagnosed as schizophrenic or other severe psychotic disorders then COMMIT THEM TO AN ASYLUM for treatment till they are cured.

2. Until a psychiatrist has determined they are cured then their name is added to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)

Simple as that.

Deaf

NMG26
08-02-2012, 20:51
:dunno: Why even post that?

Because he did not have body armor.

Fred Hansen
08-03-2012, 00:26
There's a lot of emotion in your writing here. And it's clear you're not in an objective place on this issue.

I have no issue with you choosing to fight. Good on you, so long as you're wise and careful in the moment.

But I don't see much value in your moralizing on it. You're moralizing the "fight" just like the liberal side is "moralizing" about anyone who might have fought would have just pulled a gun and started shooting like a crazy person.

This moralizing bugs me on all sides.

Fact is, everyone in that theater was in a different position. Some could had families or others to care for, some were alone. Some were close enough to intervene, some were way too far away.

It also doesn't do good to paint him as a coward. He may well have been. He may well also have been crazy, or drugged, or any number of states that make him dangerous as hell. You don't have the facts of this case, and you cannot say one way or the other.

I have spoken with officers that were there. In fact, I talked with the first guy on scene. Shook his hand and told him I heard the dispatch and how proud I was of the job they did. He told me that he couldn't talk about the case, but that we would be very surprised by what comes out over time. He said it was a horrifying scene and the toughest guys you'd ever met were wrestling with it all the same.

I have spoken with a friend of mine who was in the theater next to that where the shots came through, who got out unharmed and then helped carry bleeding people across the parking lot. He said it was utterly confusing and the adrenaline and "fight or flight" response was unreal. That he didn't even notice his hands shaking so much that "even if I'd had a gun I don't know that I could have shot it well. I wasn't trained for that." And that wasn't even staring the guy in the eyes. (Btw that same friend is now researching adrenaline-based training programs available for civilians as a way to prepare for this kind of thing).

You can moralize however you like about going in there and being the hero and fighting all the bad guys. And really, if you were there, I wish with all my heart you would have. I'd like to think I would have, and I was SUPPOSED to be there with my wife that night, in that main theater, and we decided not to go last minute. That theater is our theater and I had my daughter in theater #9 just a few weeks before watching "Brave". So don't think I haven't thought about "what I would have done." But it does no good to talk tough and pretend to be superman. Based upon where I always sit in that theater, I would have been compromised by the tear gas completely (would have landed practically in my lap). I would have had my wife with me. There are so many factors in that moment that are different from what I've ever trained for that I don't know what would have happened.

Maybe I could have been superman. But I also might have been Icarus, and that's the reality of it. Those are the facts. The chemical cocktail in that situation is immense, and everything happens so fast. Being objective about it, and not emotional or thumping our holsters, is the only real way to learn from thisYou can try to dismiss what I said by calling it "emotion"; and quite frankly I make my contempt and anger quite plain, I also make no apology for it. That doesn't change the fact that only one thing has ever stopped gutless cowards who shoot innocent people: someone capable (and willing) to make it plain that the coward is indeed going to be met with (and/or DRT from) deadly force.

Here is a story from Texas: http://www.guns.com/texas-gun-owner-shoot-out-10236.html Where an ordinary man, living his ordinary life, didn't take your advice to be a superman first, before fighting back. 5 shots from a handgun @ 165 yds. 4 out of 5 shots hit the coward (all but 1 of those shots taken while receiving incoming rifle fire from the coward) and at least a couple of those shots contributed significantly to the scumbag's death. There is little doubt that the responding deputy might well have been killed, had Mr. Stacy not intervened.

Of course the people at Associated Press won't make a horse's ass Terminator Assault Garb graphic for Vic Stacy, the way they did for Sherlock the Skaterboy. Why bring attention to heroic men like Vic Stacy, when there are scumbags aplenty to raise on pedestals? Too antithetical to the sheeple mentality that AP and others work so very hard to cultivate.

I'm too old and fat to outrun bullets. Fighting back is my only recourse. Others will just have to figure out what is best suited for them. If they figure they can run 2800 fps, well then God bless them.

Misty02
08-03-2012, 05:02
People watching. Understanding their likes, dislikes, motivation, fears, mindsets etc... That's fascinating stuff!


Exactly....
And maybe useful... what if someone saw something that could have alerted them to this sort of thing earlier? Maybe it can be prevented once in a while. I don't delude myself into thinking it can always be foreseen. The world is full of plenty crazy people, most of whom will never do anything like this. But is there something about this guy that's different, and is that something in common with other mass shooters, and is that something NOT present in the hordes of crazy people out there that don't become mass killers.

That something would be the Holy Grail of indicators to look out for. Maybe there isn't anything to find. Its worth looking to be sure...

Randy

I have sat for the mere purpose of people watching in places. It is actually something I enjoy doing. It is fascinating to observe how people react to one another, especially those they know nothing about. Watching the dynamics between family members or people that know one another is even more fascinating. Look at how they communicate with one another, often just with looks. Even more fascinating than that? When you see an unsavory group, observe their interaction with one another, observe them looking at others and then reporting their findings to their friends with just head movements and looks. This last one is best done in mall food courtyards as you sit near an exit that leads to the outside, hopefully with your vehicle parked nearby.

It is not difficult to tell who is up to no good; however, just because you can tell that much doesnít mean you can tell what they are planning nor can you prove to others that danger actually exists. Heck, Iíve observed others reviewing their surroundings, doing their victim selection and approach but it was all suspicion until such time as they actually carried through what I suspected they were about to do.

I have little doubt this guy sent a zillion signal to others before. Some may have not noticed, some that noticed may have had certain suspicions but not enough to prove or be able to do something about it.

My own family, who knows Iím rarely wrong about people, have doubted me at times when Iíve said I didnít like someone or wanted to leave a place because something felt wrong. Weíve always managed to leave parties before they went south, often with some members of my immediate family objecting, but I had no proof (other than a feeling) that something was not right. Reasons have varied, sometimes it could be because one or two people have had too much to drink, others it has been because I noticed two or more people getting agitated or angry over something that started off small. How do you think others (strangers) would react to it? Iím afraid that bothering to take the time to read people might only help the small group that is with the person doing the reading. There is but one condition I have when the driver is not a person in my immediate family, they either agree to leave when I say so (no questions asked until weíre out) or I take my own vehicle. There was a time when I had to endure a few ďsee, we didnít have to leave, nothing happened!Ē taking in consideration the number of times Iíve been wrong versus the number of times Iíve been right my family rarely questions me anymore.

Would my interest in people watching helped had I been in this theater at the time? Probably not, unless I was tuned in to him when he used the emergency exit to leave. Even someone that enjoys people watching cannot watch everyone at all times and at times we are distracted with other things going on around us.

Many of us know people we believe are pressure cookers waiting to explode, but what can you do without any evidence to support your belief? The only thing you can reasonably do in those cases is stay away from them so you (or those you care about) are not around when they do.

.

Misty02
08-03-2012, 05:34
a .22 short could have stop him.

http://www.policeone.com/policeonetv/videos/3592582-will-to-win-jared-reston/ (http://www.policeone.com/policeonetv/videos/3592582-will-to-win-jared-reston/)
Donít ever underestimate the will to win. It is a good thing when it is found in the good guy; unfortunately it could also be found in the bad guy. In this case it was the good guy who stayed in the fight in spite receiving multiple shots from a .45; the first round went through his jaw. He stayed on the fight with his jaw shot and collapsed. BTW, the BG stayed in the fight too for while after being shot.

This is one heck of an impressive video where the GG won in spite some rather deem odds.
.

Mayhem like Me
08-03-2012, 08:33
I know of a female deputy that took an AK round through her vest and her dominant hand and was able to finish the job and the perp with her .45 caliber glock in her support hand.

the iron will to win is what gets the job done

Jon_R
08-03-2012, 09:37
That is 2.4 Million People. Sounds expensive.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml#Schizophrenia

Plus a lot will avoid treatment if it means they are locked up against their will.


1. If a person is diagnosed as schizophrenic or other severe psychotic disorders then COMMIT THEM TO AN ASYLUM for treatment till they are cured.

2. Until a psychiatrist has determined they are cured then their name is added to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)

Simple as that.

Deaf

Mayhem like Me
08-03-2012, 09:39
That is 2.4 Million People. Sounds expensive.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml#Schizophrenia

Plus a lot will avoid treatment if it means they are locked up against their will.

HIPPA, ......I'll take what prevents this from happening for $1000 ...

Jon_R
08-03-2012, 09:44
HIPPA, ......I'll take what prevents this from happening for $1000 ...

I don't want it to happen from both a liberty and a financial standpoint.

The system is fine as it is.

Mayhem like Me
08-03-2012, 09:54
I don't want it to happen from both a liberty and a financial standpoint.

The system is fine as it is.

I agree in part.
I do not want it to happen..

The system is not "fine".

I have to deal with these people that society and families throw away all the time, most people do not.

So you may think it is fine, wait until one of these people that needs to be institutionalized does something to you or a family member you will understan that it is not "fine"