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6forsure
07-27-2012, 18:31
or not (http://rt.com/usa/news/florida-door-to-door-house-roop-265/)

ked
07-27-2012, 22:36
i gotta feeling he's going to really regret his actions.

ked:faint:

Glock_9mm
07-27-2012, 22:52
This may reduce the amount of people coming to the door selling magazines. I'm not saying I agree with this, but if it causes the illegitimate door to door sales people to rethink their approach, I'm all for it.

Sam Spade
07-27-2012, 22:56
This may reduce the amount of people coming to the door selling magazines. I'm not saying I agree with this, but if it causes the illegitimate door to door sales people to rethink their approach, I'm all for it.

http://cdn.overclock.net/6/6f/6f7d7db4_350x700px-LL-4ad90b08_Not-sure-if-serious2.jpeg

rednoved
07-27-2012, 23:27
Tragic story.

oldman11
07-27-2012, 23:31
Link not working.

ted1
07-27-2012, 23:43
This will not end well for law abiding gun owners. I hate to say it but there are some people that should not own a gun. Like someone who wants to shoot someone for stepping onto there property without any threat.

Sent from my DROID RAZR

Glock_9mm
07-27-2012, 23:58
http://cdn.overclock.net/6/6f/6f7d7db4_350x700px-LL-4ad90b08_Not-sure-if-serious2.jpeg

Mr. Spade, with all due respect, I am serious. I live in what would be called an affluent area. There have been numerous cases where homeowners have been raped, robbed or killed by door to door sales people who cased their homes or neighborhood. Recently a burglary ring was just busted by an alert neighbor who saw suspiciuous people around their neighbors home...turns out it was the same people who had robbed over a dozen homes. It is to the point that I no longer answer the door when I'm home. My kids have strict rules about even going near the door when we are not home. If It seems over the top, well, welcome to Califronia. BTW, I choose to live in one of the "shall issue" counties...any more questions?
Scott

steveksux
07-28-2012, 07:27
By all means, sacrifice an innocent person trying to feed their family if it eases your concerns. It's for the greater good.

Randy

Sam Spade
07-28-2012, 07:59
Mr. Spade, with all due respect, I am serious.... BTW, I choose to live in one of the "shall issue" counties...any more questions?
Scott

So how many innocent people are you willing to whack to cut down on door-to-door solicitors? You up to volunteering yourself or one of your kids to be sacrificed for the greater good? Let's say that your community gets a 50% drop in unwanted solicitors after a Girl Scout takes one to the back of the head like this victim did---you still "all for it"?

I find your attitude towards the taking of innocent life to be despicable. Both you and the Florida moron are giving the antis all the ammunition they could wish for.

ZO6Vettever
07-28-2012, 08:21
Wasn't there but from what the news said it looks like the shooter was a loose cannon. I think he'll be going to prison. Awful lot of responsibilty goes with carrying a sidearm.

eracer
07-28-2012, 08:26
This may reduce the amount of people coming to the door selling magazines. I'm not saying I agree with this, but if it causes the illegitimate door to door sales people to rethink their approach, I'm all for it.Are door-to-door salesmen born of wedded parents OK with you then?:supergrin:

Chris Chris
07-28-2012, 08:44
Based upon the news account (which may or may not be totally accurate) there would seem to be NO legal justification for the shooter's actions under ANY of the Florida self-defense statutes.

My guess is that he goes down hard... and IMHO... he deserves to. I support the SYG law. But if it is used to gain an aquital in this case it needs to be changed.

jdavionic
07-28-2012, 09:05
So how many innocent people are you willing to whack to cut down on door-to-door solicitors? You up to volunteering yourself or one of your kids to be sacrificed for the greater good? Let's say that your community gets a 50% drop in unwanted solicitors after a Girl Scout takes one to the back of the head like this victim did---you still "all for it"?

I find your attitude towards the taking of innocent life to be despicable. Both you and the Florida moron are giving the antis all the ammunition they could wish for.

We don't often have fully aligned positions...but we do here. Our rules forbid me from adding to this, so I'll just leave it as +1.

Gallium
07-28-2012, 10:16
This may reduce the amount of people coming to the door selling magazines. I'm not saying I agree with this, but if it causes the illegitimate door to door sales people to rethink their approach, I'm all for it.

If you're not saying you agree with this, how can you be all for sales people re-thinking their approach based on this activity?

So let me ask you outright: Based on the information in the thread starter, do you think the shooter was justified in -



pulling his firearm on the sales person?
shooting the sales person, absent a threat of force?
shooting the sales person in the back of the head while he lay on the ground?

Thank you.
- G

zbusdriver
07-28-2012, 10:18
So how many innocent people are you willing to whack to cut down on door-to-door solicitors? You up to volunteering yourself or one of your kids to be sacrificed for the greater good? Let's say that your community gets a 50% drop in unwanted solicitors after a Girl Scout takes one to the back of the head like this victim did---you still "all for it"?

I find your attitude towards the taking of innocent life to be despicable. Both you and the Florida moron are giving the antis all the ammunition they could wish for.Very well said.

oldman11
07-28-2012, 10:28
Based upon the news account (which may or may not be totally accurate) there would seem to be NO legal justification for the shooter's actions under ANY of the Florida self-defense statutes.

My guess is that he goes down hard... and IMHO... he deserves to. I support the SYG law. But if it is used to gain an aquital in this case it needs to be changed.
+1 on that.

RussP
07-28-2012, 10:59
Please, stop the rude and insulting name calling. If you see an insult, please do not respond.

If your post is no longer visible, you are guilty of doing one or the other of those actions.

Brucev
07-28-2012, 11:29
Any decent prosecutor will finish this business quickly... and the killer will then get to be a guest of the state for life is he is not sentenced to execution. Good. Such criminals deserve to be punished to the fullest extent possible under the law.

The family of the murdered man should press a suit for wrongful death against the criminal extracting from him the maximum possible money damages.

RussP
07-28-2012, 20:04
This may reduce the amount of people coming to the door selling magazines.


I'm not saying I agree with this, but


if it causes the illegitimate door to door sales people to rethink their approach,


I'm all for it.


Mr. Spade, with all due respect, I am serious.


I live in what would be called an affluent area.


There have been numerous cases where homeowners have been raped, robbed or killed by door to door sales people who cased their homes or neighborhood.


Recently a burglary ring was just busted by an alert neighbor who saw suspiciuous people around their neighbors home...turns out it was the same people who had robbed over a dozen homes.


It is to the point that



I no longer answer the door when I'm home.


My kids have strict rules about even going near the door when we are not home.



If It seems over the top, well, welcome to Califronia.


BTW, I choose to live in one of the "shall issue" counties...any more questions?



ScottI hope you don't mind that I separated your sentences. It makes it a little easier for me.

Sam and Gallium have asked some questions. I hope you answer them.

How long have you been carrying?

dakrat
07-28-2012, 20:17
I have said it before and will say it again.

Guns and Drivers License. 50% of the population shouldn't be allowed to have one.

but then thats unconstitutional blah blah blah....

triggerman357
07-28-2012, 22:39
Was this guy trained and licensed to carry in Florida?

Glock_9mm
07-29-2012, 03:15
So how many innocent people are you willing to whack to cut down on door-to-door solicitors? You up to volunteering yourself or one of your kids to be sacrificed for the greater good? Let's say that your community gets a 50% drop in unwanted solicitors after a Girl Scout takes one to the back of the head like this victim did---you still "all for it"?

I find your attitude towards the taking of innocent life to be despicable. Both you and the Florida moron are giving the antis all the ammunition they could wish for.

Ok, I would like to apologize for the way I worded my post, I can see how it came accross in the way that Mr Spade and others read it. Part of what I do not like about the Internet is that it is often difficult to get your point across in the way you actually mean it.

I do not ever have to use my weapon on an individual, if I gave that impression I do apologize it was not my point. If I may give some reasons for my passionate post against door to door sales people. Over the past few years I have had several of these sales people not take a polite no thank you for an answer and become what I would consider borderline hostile with me or my wife. I have had other try to invite themselves inside our home, almost like they are seeing if it would be worth it if they should come back later when we are not around.

I also own a retail business that I have had items come up missing when door to door sales people have been around. So my point was if that if some of the illegitimate so called door to door sale people chose to not visit me anymore, I would be happy. I have no problem supporting the girl scouts, boy scouts or the local sports team trying to raise funds for whatever.

The point about living in a shall issue county is that I am choosing not to be a victim. I am taking carrying a handgun very seriously and have already taken more than the amount of required classes than the county requires.

Again, I apologize to the forum the way my post was perceived.
Scott

RyanBDawg
07-29-2012, 03:19
Mr. Spade, with all due respect, I am serious. I live in what would be called an affluent area. There have been numerous cases where homeowners have been raped, robbed or killed by door to door sales people who cased their homes or neighborhood. Recently a burglary ring was just busted by an alert neighbor who saw suspiciuous people around their neighbors home...turns out it was the same people who had robbed over a dozen homes. It is to the point that I no longer answer the door when I'm home. My kids have strict rules about even going near the door when we are not home. If It seems over the top, well, welcome to Califronia. BTW, I choose to live in one of the "shall issue" counties...any more questions?
Scott

Oh boy..

Let's hope the geniuses that run MSNBC don't see this post..

I hope that this worthless bastard gets sent straight to the front of death row.

He is a disgrace to the vast majority of gun owners who are peaceful, law abiding people.


Sent from my iPhone 4s

NEOH212
07-29-2012, 03:22
Another floridian nut job commits murder and gives gun owners yet another black eye.

There, I fixed it.

Glock_9mm
07-29-2012, 03:30
If you're not saying you agree with this, how can you be all for sales people re-thinking their approach based on this activity?

So let me ask you outright: Based on the information in the thread starter, do you think the shooter was justified in -



pulling his firearm on the sales person?
shooting the sales person, absent a threat of force?
shooting the sales person in the back of the head while he lay on the ground?

Thank you.
- G

No to all three, however I was not there. Who is to say what this person thought & felt. I will admit that I missed the sentance about the second shot to the head when I first read the article.
Scott

Glock_9mm
07-29-2012, 03:43
I hope you don't mind that I separated your sentences. It makes it a little easier for me.

Sam and Gallium have asked some questions. I hope you answer them.

How long have you been carrying?

Russ,
I have answered the questions posted by the gentleman above, I am a member of several other Internet forums, none of which are gun related, and I have quickly learned that this forum is quite a bit more serious than the others I frequent. It would appear that I have not made the best first impression and for that I apologize. I came here to learn more about the weapons I own. I take shooting sports and gun ownership very seriously.

To answer your question, I have been going through the ccw process for the past year and I currently have permits to carry in several states outside of CA. I have the final hoop to jump through later this week to get my ccw in CA. I have been carrying while at work for the last year.
Scott

Bren
07-29-2012, 05:40
Well done by the off-duty C/O, Sgt. Shiner.

The bad news for Florida is that this carzy POS joins the reasons for attacking your self-defense and gun rights, right at the worst time. Between cases that have nothing to do with the stand your ground law (Zimmerman) and cases where the person didn't follow it (Roop) the antis are building a fight against self-defense.

Under a controversial “Stand Your Ground” law in Florida . . . Under that defense fellow Floridian George Zimmerman managed to avoid being charged . . . Authorities say Roop may attempt the same defense.

Except none of that is true. Stand your ground was inapplicable to Zimmerman because his claim was that he was unable to retreat when shot (pinned on the ground), not that he didn't have to. The law applicable to his story is the same as before "stand your ground." And it is inapplicable to Roop because it doesn't change the justifications for use of force, which he didn't have.

Bren
07-29-2012, 05:47
No to all three, however I was not there. Who is to say what this person thought & felt. I will admit that I missed the sentance about the second shot to the head when I first read the article.
Scott

I know the answer: a Jury.

They will decide what they believe he thought and felt and they will decide whether a reasonable person would feel the same...then they'll send him to prison for murder.

jordankaden
07-29-2012, 06:24
This is NOT an instance of "stand your ground", it sounds to me that the suspect in this case might have had issues.....

It is very unfortunate that "stand your ground" is even mentioned in this case when it is very clear that it does not apply.

Chris Chris
07-29-2012, 06:59
+1 to those who see through the anti-gun media's reference to the SYG law. There is no applicability to that law when someone shoots an unarmed, wounded person in the head as they lay on the ground.

That shot was an 'execution'... pure and simple. There is no legitimate claim to self-defense there. I would be very surprised if a murder conviction was not quickly, and deservedly, obtained.

poodleplumber
07-29-2012, 07:01
This is NOT an instance of "stand your ground"

Quite correct, and a valid point that we need to make in the media: People are allowed to stand their ground in the presence of an immediate threat of death or serious harm. Far too often, the media leaves that out in an effort to falsely portray SWG laws as permission to kill anyone who offends.

jdavionic
07-29-2012, 07:45
Another floridian nut job commits murder and gives gun owners yet another black eye.

There, I fixed it.

Unfortunately for all of the cases where guns have saved lives in SD situations (including those where no shots are fired), we get little to no press coverage. Then every gun owner that commits a crime and/or has an accident...those are plastered in front of the public almost daily. Heck, even on this gun forum, you see a constant and overwhelming posting of negative cases.

Cavalry Doc
07-29-2012, 09:56
Idiots and the deranged should not own guns. Only problem is how to ID them before they do something stupid.

Darkangel1846
07-29-2012, 10:51
Sounds like the guy was crazy.

RussP
07-29-2012, 11:51
Russ,
I have answered the questions posted by the gentleman above, I am a member of several other Internet forums, none of which are gun related, and I have quickly learned that this forum is quite a bit more serious than the others I frequent. It would appear that I have not made the best first impression and for that I apologize. I came here to learn more about the weapons I own. I take shooting sports and gun ownership very seriously.

To answer your question, I have been going through the ccw process for the past year and I currently have permits to carry in several states outside of CA. I have the final hoop to jump through later this week to get my ccw in CA. I have been carrying while at work for the last year.
ScottI'n still not quite clear on how long you've been carrying.To answer your question,
I have been going through the ccw process for the past year and


I have the final hoop to jump through later this week to get my ccw in CA.


I have been carrying while at work for the last year.


I currently have permits to carry in several states outside of CA.
For clarification, have you ever carried your firearm outside of work, home, at the range, in other words, have you ever carried on the street? Yeah, yeah, I know, this is about an alleged "home defense" (note I didn't say "self defense") shooting, but I'm curious.I have quickly learned that this forum is quite a bit more serious than the others I frequent.Yes, Scott, we do take the discussion of life and death involving our use of firearms seriously.

RussP
07-29-2012, 11:55
Idiots and the deranged should not own guns. Only problem is how to ID them before they do something stupid.Interesting question Doc. I am certain you've seen the posts here and elsewhere about everyone has the Constitutional Right to carry, which all agree we do, right up until they commit a crime, which does happen. Then when a person with mental health issues commits the crime, the cry for early detection of issues to prevent such crimes is quite loud.

jdavionic
07-29-2012, 12:24
Interesting question Doc. I am certain you've seen the posts here and elsewhere about everyone has the Constitutional Right to carry, which all agree we do, right up until they commit a crime, which does happen. Then when a person with mental health issues commits the crime, the cry for early detection of issues to prevent such crimes is quite loud.

You should look back to the Carter years for some insight on the handling of the mentally ill.

Glock_9mm
07-29-2012, 12:38
I'n still not quite clear on how long you've been carrying.For clarification, have you ever carried your firearm outside of work, home, at the range, in other words, have you ever carried on the street? Yeah, yeah, I know, this is about an alleged "home defense" (note I didn't say "self defense") shooting, but I'm curious.Yes, Scott, we do take the discussion of life and death involving our use of firearms seriously.

Russ,
To answer your question I have not carried "on the streets" only at my place of business. I am taking all of this very seriously and again, I apogize as I truly feel that this is more of a misunderstanding and, in hind site, a poor choice of words on my part. The internet is emotionless where inflection, facial expressions and body language are non existent.

As I did mention, I am taking classes to learn more about carrying. Joining this forum was, in part, to further that education. I will admit that I made a mistake and have learned from it. So I will take my lashes and lessons learned and humbly move on to the next topic. BTW, I am being sincere here.
Scott

Chris Chris
07-29-2012, 13:17
Russ,
To answer your question I have not carried "on the streets" only at my place of business. I am taking all of this very seriously and again, I apogize as I truly feel that this is more of a misunderstanding and, in hind site, a poor choice words on my part. The internet is emotionless where inflection, facial expressions and body language are non existent.

As I did mentioned, I am taking classes to learn more about carrying. Joining this forum was, in part, to further that education. I will admit that I made a mistake and have learned from it. So I will take my lashes and lessons learned and humbly move on to the next topic. BTW, I am being sincere here.
Scott

Scott, just a thought and delivered with all due respect.

A permit to carry a gun is just that... to carry. The actual use is governed by a myriad of other laws... often confusing, sometimes contradictory, and always subject to a massive review by people who were not there.

In the majority of cases that review will center upon 'the reasonable man'... the 'totality of the circumstances' ... JOC... and other factors. That needs to be learned to the best of one's ability before they step on the street with a concealed handgun.

I would humbly suggest that you see if my Bro, Mas Ayoob, has a MAG 40 class occuring within a reasonable distance of you. As one who serves as one of his range shooting instructors I can tell you that the shooting portion is informative and valuable. BUT.. the key part is the classroom study. IMHO, it should be mandatory for any new CCW permit holder. It is an eye-opener!

Glock_9mm
07-29-2012, 14:08
You are correct and thank you for the advice. As it stands, both of my instructors have trained with Mas Ayoob and refer to his teachings quite often. If my schedule permits, I would certainly like to attend one of his classes.

Scott, just a thought and delivered with all due respect.

A permit to carry a gun is just that... to carry. The actual use is governed by a myriad of other laws... often confusing, sometimes contradictory, and always subject to a massive review by people who were not there.

In the majority of cases that review will center upon 'the reasonable man'... the 'totality of the circumstances' ... JOC... and other factors. That needs to be learned to the best of one's ability before they step on the street with a concealed handgun.

I would humbly suggest that you see if my Bro, Mas Ayoob, has a MAG 40 class occuring within a reasonable distance of you. As one who serves as one of his range shooting instructors I can tell you that the shooting portion is informative and valuable. BUT.. the key part is the classroom study. IMHO, it should be mandatory for any new CCW permit holder. It is an eye-opener!

Cavalry Doc
07-29-2012, 19:00
Interesting question Doc. I am certain you've seen the posts here and elsewhere about everyone has the Constitutional Right to carry, which all agree we do, right up until they commit a crime, which does happen. Then when a person with mental health issues commits the crime, the cry for early detection of issues to prevent such crimes is quite loud.

Well, it is a damn good quandary. Seems several of the recent mass shootings involved the mentally deranged. I've got friends that ask my advice on how to get diagnosed as PTSD. Have to admit, if you have some symptoms of PTSD (disassociative episodes) probably don't need to be carrying guns. If I'm out with someone, I don't want the smell of burning hair to turn them from friend to actively shooting enemy in an instant. My advice is if you don't have it for sure, you don't want to pretend you do.

I can't see any perfect solution. There is no meter they can have at a gun store to check to see if you will be sane in 6 months.

Since that isn't possible, the elimination of gun free zones is just about the only reasonable solution I can come up with. And that is about as politically possible as me winning the presidency this November.

Misty02
07-30-2012, 05:02
Ok, I would like to apologize for the way I worded my post, I can see how it came accross in the way that Mr Spade and others read it. Part of what I do not like about the Internet is that it is often difficult to get your point across in the way you actually mean it.

I do not ever have to use my weapon on an individual, if I gave that impression I do apologize it was not my point. If I may give some reasons for my passionate post against door to door sales people. Over the past few years I have had several of these sales people not take a polite no thank you for an answer and become what I would consider borderline hostile with me or my wife. I have had other try to invite themselves inside our home, almost like they are seeing if it would be worth it if they should come back later when we are not around.

I also own a retail business that I have had items come up missing when door to door sales people have been around. So my point was if that if some of the illegitimate so called door to door sale people chose to not visit me anymore, I would be happy. I have no problem supporting the girl scouts, boy scouts or the local sports team trying to raise funds for whatever.

The point about living in a shall issue county is that I am choosing not to be a victim. I am taking carrying a handgun very seriously and have already taken more than the amount of required classes than the county requires.

Again, I apologize to the forum the way my post was perceived.
Scott

I don’t understand, why are you and/or your wife opening the door to unknown people (salesmen)? Why are strangers (door to door salesmen) allowed to roam around unsupervised in your business?

Of all the steps we can take to not become a victim of crime, the ownership and carry of a firearm is not exactly at the top of the list. That is mostly for when all other precautions have failed. There should be many protective buffers in place before it gets to that.

.

RussP
07-30-2012, 08:46
I don’t understand, why are you and/or your wife opening the door to unknown people (salesmen)? Why are strangers (door to door salesmen) allowed to roam around unsupervised in your business?

Of all the steps we can take to not become a victim of crime, the ownership and carry of a firearm is not exactly at the top of the list. That is mostly for when all other precautions have failed. There should be many protective buffers in place before it gets to that.

.Misty, those events happened during Scott's, well, let's call them "formative years." Those early events caused him to institute more stringent rules for the family....It is to the point that I no longer answer the door when I'm home. My kids have strict rules about even going near the door when we are not home. ...
Scott

Misty02
07-30-2012, 10:33
Misty, those events happened during Scott's, well, let's call them "formative years." Those early events caused him to institute more stringent rules for the family.


Considering the order of the posts……..hmmmm ok :)

.

RussP
07-30-2012, 11:50
Considering the order of the posts……..hmmmm ok :)

.Yes, it is not told chronologically...:cool:

Gunnut 45/454
07-30-2012, 16:05
I wonder why there are no pictures of Mr. Roop? Just saying!:whistling:

6forsure
07-30-2012, 17:40
I wonder why there are no pictures of Mr. Roop? Just saying!:whistling:

saying what? he is a white male. a google image search reveals several images of him.

Gunnut 45/454
07-30-2012, 20:53
6forsure
Yea just like CNN goggled John Holmes right!!!:faint: That stated Mr. Roop needs to make his final plans known cause I see a needle in his future!:whistling:

RussP
07-30-2012, 21:37
6forsure
Yea just like CNN goggled John Holmes right!!!:faint: That stated Mr. Roop needs to make his final plans known cause I see a needle in his future!:whistling:Google Kenneth Bailey Roop. There are many photos, all his mug shot. or go here...http://www.bustedmugshots.com/florida/cape-coral/kenneth-bailey-roop/59462071

PEC-Memphis
07-30-2012, 22:00
I know the answer: a Jury.

They will decide what they believe he thought and felt and they will decide whether a reasonable person would feel the same...then they'll send him to prison for murder.


They will decide what they believe he thought and felt and they will decide whether a reasonable person would feel the same...then they'll send him to prison for murder.

Bingo, when people refer to SYG laws and say they are justified to use lethal force because they 'felt' like they were in danger, they usually leave this part out.