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hogfish
07-29-2012, 14:27
I saw earlier a news report, and just now when I got back to the web, about a couple being denied marriage by the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs, Mississippi. I don't know how to 'link', so I can only write what I read about.
Also, I wasn't sure if this should go in politics or religion so...

The couple were set to be married and a small group of church members opposed the couple being married at that church. The preacher ended up marrying them at another venue in order to make everyone happy, in what he saw as a good compromise. It's reported that when the rest of the congregation heard of this, they were outraged, and could not understand why such a thing would happen.
The couple is black, and the church is predominantly white.

Do you think the church had a right to discriminate in this fashion?

Thanks.

High-Gear
07-29-2012, 14:38
To post a link: highlight and copy the address bar info, then paste it in your response.


Isnt it amazing the lengths a group will go to, in order to make others feel like lesser individuals.

Lone Wolf8634
07-29-2012, 14:39
I saw earlier a news report, and just now when I got back to the web, about a couple being denied marriage by the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs, Mississippi. I don't know how to 'link', so I can only write what I read about.
Also, I wasn't sure if this should go in politics or religion so...

The couple were set to be married and a small group of church members opposed the couple being married at that church. The preacher ended up marrying them at another venue in order to make everyone happy, in what he saw as a good compromise. It's reported that when the rest of the congregation heard of this, they were outraged, and could not understand why such a thing would happen.
The couple is black, and the church is predominantly white.

Do you think the church had a right to discriminate in this fashion?

Thanks.

Obviously, the preacher found a compromise the church could live with. The congregation can have any opinion that they wish, I'm sure there's another church they could go to that would more closely match their values.

And yes, if the church decided they didn't wish them to be married there, they have every right to say no.

hogfish
07-29-2012, 14:54
http://entertainment.verizon.com/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CDA0A5QA80%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=1018

I'm hoping this works. Thanks, High-Gear. If it worked, it's actually pretty simple.

Thanks, again! :wavey:

High-Gear
07-29-2012, 15:29
http://entertainment.verizon.com/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CDA0A5QA80%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=1018

I'm hoping this works. Thanks, High-Gear. If it worked, it's actually pretty simple.

Thanks, again! :wavey:

The link works. It seems pretty sad they waited until the day before the wedding. I guess the membership has a constitutional right to be racist scumbags. Hopefully others in the community choose not to be a part of their church any longer and they go bankrupt. That is the price for small mindedness.

hogfish
07-29-2012, 16:24
This is a tough one for me because I believe they were in their right doing this, but I feel like I'm condoning racism.
So, Religious Liberty and all: Is there any text in The Bible (either Testament, but New Testament would be better, being they're Christian) that supports this action?

Thanks.

Lone Wolf8634
07-29-2012, 16:53
This is a tough one for me because I believe they were in their right doing this, but I feel like I'm condoning racism.
So, Religious Liberty and all: Is there any text in The Bible (either Testament, but New Testament would be better, being they're Christian) that supports this action?

Thanks.

You're not condoning racism by affirming the right to have your own opinion and to associate with like minded people, even if that opinion is repugnant to you.

High-Gear
07-29-2012, 16:55
This is a tough one for me because I believe they were in their right doing this, but I feel like I'm condoning racism.
So, Religious Liberty and all: Is there any text in The Bible (either Testament, but New Testament would be better, being they're Christian) that supports this action?

Thanks.

Saying someone has a right to be a "Racist Arsehole" does not make you one!:supergrin:

Cavalry Doc
07-29-2012, 17:11
I saw earlier a news report, and just now when I got back to the web, about a couple being denied marriage by the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs, Mississippi. I don't know how to 'link', so I can only write what I read about.
Also, I wasn't sure if this should go in politics or religion so...

The couple were set to be married and a small group of church members opposed the couple being married at that church. The preacher ended up marrying them at another venue in order to make everyone happy, in what he saw as a good compromise. It's reported that when the rest of the congregation heard of this, they were outraged, and could not understand why such a thing would happen.
The couple is black, and the church is predominantly white.

Do you think the church had a right to discriminate in this fashion?

Thanks.

If it was based on race alone, that is extremely poor form and manners, and since the wedding was cancelled at the church just the day before, I think it would be very appropriate for the congregation to pay for the entire event, and maybe even kick in a little extra as a wedding present.

steveksux
07-29-2012, 17:16
Its very easy. No right at all to discriminate in that manner in this case. The pastor caved to the baser instincts of the mouth breathing component of his congregation.

If you can point to something in Baptist doctrine that supports discrimination against blacks and/or white superiority, then it might be a difficult call. You would have first amendment issues in play there, a very high bar to clear.

But its clear in this case, there's no doctrinal basis for the small group to protest that, as the majority of the church was apparently appalled by the decision.

That pastor needs to grow a pair.

If this was a case of Westboro Baptist Church refusing to marry a gay couple after gay marriage becomes legal, they have every right to refuse to marry them, as it goes against their religious beliefs.

Similarly, if this was a case of a Christian Identity church where their belief includes white supremacy, segregation of the races as part of their "doctrine", then they have a First Amendment right to believe that way, as distasteful as it is.

Randy

NorthCarolinaLiberty
07-29-2012, 19:15
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Vx05FT5m91o/TGZzDVh72wI/AAAAAAAAAXU/ys2YAwlwDJE/s1600/racist-church-sign.jpg

janice6
07-29-2012, 20:39
My wife and I are from the North.

In 1958 I was in the Navy and stationed on a ship out of Charleston, SC. I asked my fiancÚ to come to Charleston to be married. She wanted to be married in the Catholic church; she is Catholic, I am Protestant.

I went to the registrars office to get a marriage license and was told that the clerk would have to "see" my wife before the license would be granted. They had to prove she wasn't black. No "mixed marriages allowed".

The Priest in Charleston was told that because I was not Catholic, we could not be married at "the altar".

We have been married for 54 years now.

Neither the church nor the state was significant in our lives.

Leave the couple alone.

steveksux
07-29-2012, 20:48
My wife and I are from the North.

In 1958 I was in the Navy and stationed on a ship out of Charleston, SC. I asked my fiancÚ to come to Charleston to be married. She wanted to be married in the Catholic church; she is Catholic, I am Protestant.

I went to the registrars office to get a marriage license and was told that the clerk would have to "see" my wife before the license would be granted. They had to prove she wasn't black. No "mixed marriages allowed".

The Priest in Charleston was told that because I was not Catholic, we could not be married at "the altar".

We have been married for 54 years now.

Neither the church nor the state was significant in our lives.

Leave the couple alone.That in a nutshell is why I'm an advocate for gay people wishing to get married.

My wife is black, but for the grace of god, if we had been born 50 years ago, it'd be the govt telling ME I couldn't marry HER.

Screw that. You can take my wife when you can pry her from my cold dead fingers. I was lucky enough to be born when I was, when it wasn't an issue. I'm just paying forward my good luck. The govt that can control that aspect of my life is a govt that is WAY TOO POWERFUL AND INTRUSIVE.

She's Catholic, and I'm not, but we were able to get married in her church, Catholic priest, the whole 9 yards. Times they are a changing, eh?

Randy

janice6
07-29-2012, 20:53
That in a nutshell is why I'm an advocate for gay people wishing to get married.

My wife is black, but for the grace of god, if we had been born 50 years ago, it'd be the govt telling ME I couldn't marry HER.

Screw that. You can take my wife when you can pry her from my cold dead fingers. I was lucky enough to be born when I was, when it wasn't an issue. I'm just paying forward my good luck. The govt that can control that aspect of my life is a govt that is WAY TOO POWERFUL AND INTRUSIVE.

She's Catholic, and I'm not, but we were able to get married in her church, Catholic priest, the whole 9 yards. Times they are a changing, eh?

Randy


Yes, I guess they are. although, people will never get tired of telling you what you can and can't do.

Syclone538
07-29-2012, 21:50
I saw earlier a news report, and just now when I got back to the web, about a couple being denied marriage by the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs, Mississippi. I don't know how to 'link', so I can only write what I read about.
Also, I wasn't sure if this should go in politics or religion so...

The couple were set to be married and a small group of church members opposed the couple being married at that church. The preacher ended up marrying them at another venue in order to make everyone happy, in what he saw as a good compromise. It's reported that when the rest of the congregation heard of this, they were outraged, and could not understand why such a thing would happen.
The couple is black, and the church is predominantly white.

Do you think the church had a right to discriminate in this fashion?

Thanks.

I'm libertarian, almost anarchist. The initiation of force is (almost?) always wrong.

Forcing someone to preform a marriage is wrong.
Forcing someone to not preform a marriage is wrong.
Forcing someone to allow you to use their property for your marriage is wrong.
Forcing someone to not get married at all is wrong.

Did the church goers have the right to get mad at the preacher? Yes, I don't have the right to tell them they can't.

Did the couple have the right to get married? Yes, I don't have the right to tell them they can't.

Did the preacher have the right to marry them? Yes, I don't have the right to tell them they can't.

High-Gear
07-29-2012, 21:55
I'm libertarian, almost anarchist. The initiation of force is (almost?) always wrong.

Forcing someone to preform a marriage is wrong.
Forcing someone to not preform a marriage is wrong.
Forcing someone to allow you to use their property for your marriage is wrong.
Forcing someone to not get married at all is wrong.

Did the church goers have the right to get mad at the preacher? Yes, I don't have the right to tell them they can't.

Did the couple have the right to get married? Yes, I don't have the right to tell them they can't.

Did the preacher have the right to marry them? Yes, I don't have the right to tell them they can't.
Agreed, however when the preacher originally agreed to allow them to have the ceremony at the church, he entered into a contract. The invites went out, plans were made. They pulled the plug the day before, which was BS.

Getting married is stressful enough, they didn't need that little gem thrown their way.

High-Gear
07-29-2012, 22:01
That in a nutshell is why I'm an advocate for gay people wishing to get married.

My wife is black, but for the grace of god, if we had been born 50 years ago, it'd be the govt telling ME I couldn't marry HER.

Screw that. You can take my wife when you can pry her from my cold dead fingers. I was lucky enough to be born when I was, when it wasn't an issue. I'm just paying forward my good luck. The govt that can control that aspect of my life is a govt that is WAY TOO POWERFUL AND INTRUSIVE.

She's Catholic, and I'm not, but we were able to get married in her church, Catholic priest, the whole 9 yards. Times they are a changing, eh?

Randy

Good Man!

.

Syclone538
07-29-2012, 22:25
Agreed, however when the preacher originally agreed to allow them to have the ceremony at the church, he entered into a contract. The invites went out, plans were made. They pulled the plug the day before, which was BS.

Getting married is stressful enough, they didn't need that little gem thrown their way.

Should he have honored the agreement? Yes. Not doing so was pretty low.

Did he have the right to back out of the agreement? I don't know, I don't have an answer here.

In theory, the answer is to have a written contract with penalties for either party backing out, maybe escalating penalties as it gets closer to the big day.

steveksux
07-29-2012, 23:00
Good Man!

.Funny, that's not what I'm being called in other threads concerning this topic... :rofl:

Randy

Lone Wolf8634
07-30-2012, 06:52
Funny, that's not what I'm being called in other threads concerning this topic... :rofl:

Randy

What business is it of anyone elses?

I say Good on You also.

Brucev
07-30-2012, 14:30
A church is wise to have in place a very clear policy for usage of buildings/property by members and non-members. The pastor in charge is wise to be fully cognizant of what are the policies of the church and not to make assumptions as to what will be permitted by the board. Policy needs to be examined periodically and changed when need necessitates it. This may not eliminate conflict, but it greatly reduces it.

In the OP it is quite likely that more than mere racism was involved in the decision to not grant use of the building to this couple. While reprehensible and indefensible in any estimate of Scripture or Christian faith, almost certainly reflects more than a simple decision on usage of a building. Often such conflict power/control issues within the congregation.

In any large group personalities can drive how conflict is approached and how it is resolved. While it would be wonderful if all decisions were made according to principle, reality is that imperfect people make less than perfect decisions.

Part of pastoral ministry is that one must lead in things are easy and when things are hard. One cannot just do a Moses and pitch a fit about what you don't like. Sometime like it or not, you have to help people work through a matter rather than just telling them to choose sides, vote and then expect the losers to knuckle under and do as they're told.

Even in the most effective Church congregation, the world is to much with us. Happily this sort of thing is now to most folks a non-issue. But other matters such as medical/health care, taxation, employment issues, social and community issues, etc. are often flash points for conflict.

Schabesbert
07-30-2012, 14:59
She's Catholic, and I'm not, but we were able to get married in her church, Catholic priest, the whole 9 yards. Times they are a changing, eh?

Randy
As far as the state, perhaps. But as far as the Catholic Church, racially "mixed" couples were always permitted.

Oh, I'm sure that in some cultures interracial marriages may have been discouraged at times (unofficially), and I think it might have been appropriate at certain times and places in our country's history to make sure that the couple were aware of what they might be getting into to make sure they could weather the trials they might be subjected to, but the Church teaching from day one never disallowed it.

As a matter of fact, what the Church defines as a "mixed marriage" is when only one of the two spouses is Catholic.

steveksux
07-30-2012, 20:51
As far as the state, perhaps. But as far as the Catholic Church, racially "mixed" couples were always permitted.

Oh, I'm sure that in some cultures interracial marriages may have been discouraged at times (unofficially), and I think it might have been appropriate at certain times and places in our country's history to make sure that the couple were aware of what they might be getting into to make sure they could weather the trials they might be subjected to, but the Church teaching from day one never disallowed it.

As a matter of fact, what the Church defines as a "mixed marriage" is when only one of the two spouses is Catholic.I think you misunderstood. That was in response to janice6 mentioning that their church wouldn't let them get married there because j6 wasn't catholic. I mentioned our church had no such hangup. I was referring to our "mixed marriage" ala Catholic/Lutheran, not "mixed" as in black/white in that context.

I don't recall any stories of Catholic churches refusing to marry different races, although I'm sure it happened in the deep south at some point. Based in Rome, there was probably never any basis for the Catholic Church to ban it, I'm sure if it occurred it was the locals going rogue.

Randy

Kingarthurhk
07-31-2012, 17:17
I saw earlier a news report, and just now when I got back to the web, about a couple being denied marriage by the First Baptist Church of Crystal Springs, Mississippi. I don't know how to 'link', so I can only write what I read about.
Also, I wasn't sure if this should go in politics or religion so...

The couple were set to be married and a small group of church members opposed the couple being married at that church. The preacher ended up marrying them at another venue in order to make everyone happy, in what he saw as a good compromise. It's reported that when the rest of the congregation heard of this, they were outraged, and could not understand why such a thing would happen.
The couple is black, and the church is predominantly white.

Do you think the church had a right to discriminate in this fashion?

Thanks.

I guess if they wanted to. However, ironically, it does not fit with concept of Christianity. God is no respecter of persons, he doesn't judge us by the color of our skin but by the content of our characters. Another thing they might want to consider, if they ever open their Old Testament at all, Moses married a Ku****e. One of the first recorded "mixed marriages".

hogfish
07-31-2012, 18:12
It seems that racial discrimination is deemed 'unchristian', and that the few who practice this are...wrong is all I could come up with.

:dunno: