Interesting Legal CCW Question [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Interesting Legal CCW Question


unit1069
08-01-2012, 20:56
I just learned that a friend who lives in Arizona was diagnosed with cancer; doctors told him it was a combination of years of cigarette smoking/alcohol which my friend said he quit both habits immediately.

My friend has a CCW license and in our conversation he also said he received a medical marijuana prescription which he takes via brownies or other non-inhalant methods.

The question is, does anyone know if he ever had to use his weapon in self-defense if the marijuana/drug issue would be a factor? I lean towards caution and think it would due to possible mental impairment, but in the uncertain political world we live in presently I think this is a tough call as long as all other factors weigh in on the side of the defender.

grmnracing
08-01-2012, 21:05
A lawyer can and will make a big deal about that. Lawyers will/ can make a point about anything. Gun mods, etc. Doesn't mean anything unless the jury goes for the tactics.

ojabog
08-01-2012, 21:16
I think your friend would get in big trouble. Alcohol and prescribed meds are legal, but under the influence is under the influence. No cop or ADA is going to any you any slack when a firearm is involved.

cowboy1964
08-01-2012, 22:11
Of course it could be a problem. No different than if a person was on pain killers legally. Impairment is impairment.

jmchaney
08-02-2012, 08:10
I think your friend would get in big trouble. Alcohol and prescribed meds are legal, but under the influence is under the influence. No cop or ADA is going to any you any slack when a firearm is involved.

Can you explain why, someone under the influence has no right to defend himself from an attack?

Numismatist
08-02-2012, 08:40
Can you explain why, someone under the influence has no right to defend himself from an attack?

No, but common sense and legal are two different things...

CA Escapee
08-02-2012, 12:07
Unfortunately your friend wouldn't even have to use a gun. Possession alone under those circumstances is a violation of Federal Law.

Here's a link to the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners website showing a letter from ATFE to dealers dated September 21, 2011 concerning that very issue. The third paragraph of the letter covers that.

http://www.rmgo.org/concealed-carry-guide

Bill

IndyGunFreak
08-02-2012, 12:13
Unfortunately your friend wouldn't even have to use a gun. Possession alone under those circumstances is a violation of Federal Law.

Here's a link to the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners website showing a letter from ATFE to dealers dated September 21, 2011 concerning that very issue. The third paragraph of the letter covers that.

http://www.rmgo.org/concealed-carry-guide

Bill

Exactly this...

Kind of like if you're taking a prescription pain killer and driving... You're still driving under the influence. The fact you have a legitimate prescription means nothing.

IndyGunFreak
08-02-2012, 12:16
Can you explain why, someone under the influence has no right to defend himself from an attack?

Frankly, I wouldn't want someone under the influence to be carrying guns, etc. I'm not saying they don't have the right to defend themselves, but restricting them on the carrying of a firearm is logical in my opinion.

Being under the influence can often impair judgement. I don't want some "medicinal marijuana user" seeing me walk to my car and think I'm going to rob him and decide he needs to start shooting at me.

Glock_9mm
08-02-2012, 16:45
Probably wouldn't be a good idea to be carrying when he picks up his MM prescription. IMO, if he wants to do both, I would consult an attorney to find out the specifics. Scott

Sam Spade
08-02-2012, 16:54
CA Escapee has it right. Federally, your friend is a prohibited possessor.

dhoomonyou
08-02-2012, 20:29
Dont lose sight of the big picture.
Dude has cancer
A theoretical shooting is perhaps the least of his problems.
Prayers are with him.

unit1069
08-02-2012, 23:10
Thanks for the replies. I'm still of the opinion that he's taking on too much legal burden by carrying if he's under the influence of any kind. But I also sympathize with his need to defend himself while he's undergoing chemo.

I will advise him to go unarmed, but it's his decision and I'm sure he'll consider that the worries of his health problems shouldn't be additionally troubled with the thought that he might incur tremendous legal burdens as well. Even if he's not involved in a life-or-death encounter.

Like someone mentioned, just being on the premises of a MJ dispensary with a loaded pistol is illegal. Better in my mind to be safe rather than to be sorry.

Stevekozak
08-03-2012, 04:50
Unfortunately your friend wouldn't even have to use a gun. Possession alone under those circumstances is a violation of Federal Law.

Here's a link to the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners website showing a letter from ATFE to dealers dated September 21, 2011 concerning that very issue. The third paragraph of the letter covers that.

http://www.rmgo.org/concealed-carry-guide

Bill
I read the letter, and I agree that it says what it says,but I question the validity of what it says. It consistently qoutes the law as saying the "unlawful use of a controlled substance." If MM has been found to be legal with valid RX in whatever state a person is in, then I should think that the use in that case is lawful. Verdad?

Sam Spade
08-03-2012, 06:08
I read the letter, and I agree that it says what it says,but I question the validity of what it says. It consistently qoutes the law as saying the "unlawful use of a controlled substance." If MM has been found to be legal with valid RX in whatever state a person is in, then I should think that the use in that case is lawful. Verdad?

Apples and oranges. The state may call it legal, but they aren't charging him. Federally, it's illegal, there is no US Code that allows medical marijuana. That's where he'll be charged.

SJ 40
08-03-2012, 06:14
Unfortunately your friend wouldn't even have to use a gun. Possession alone under those circumstances is a violation of Federal Law.

Here's a link to the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners website showing a letter from ATFE to dealers dated September 21, 2011 concerning that very issue. The third paragraph of the letter covers that.

http://www.rmgo.org/concealed-carry-guide

BillI did find a mistake on their reciprocity map,they show Vermont as not honoring Colorado s permit.

Vermont is a Constitutional Carry state,no permit needed.
What this means is any person,not a felon and 21 years of age,while in the borders of the state of Vermont can carry concealed.
Much as the founders intended when they wrote the US Constitution. SJ 40

Arc Angel
08-03-2012, 06:29
Marijuana and guns, perfect together! What's next? Jerry Sandusky and Viagra! :freak:

Marijuana has been clinically proven to impair mental functioning and alter mood. It's usefulness as a painkiller is limited. If you're dying buddy is all doped up on a psychedelic drug then he shouldn't be carrying a deadly weapon around with him. I've got plenty of neighbors who do exactly that; and, yesterday morning another one of them stupidly shot an unarmed fellow doper right in the middle of another one of their drug deals. Really had the neighborhood buzzing; and kept over fifty cops busy for most of the day.

(If you can't think straight and your emotional responses are askew then give up the gun; and, yes, this is an example of how you can't have your brownie and eat it too.)

BobbyT
08-03-2012, 06:34
The simple view is that the state of mind you intentionally put yourself in is neither an excuse for bad behavior nor a disqualifier of good behavior.

If I get drunk and do something that's already wrong, whether it's assault with my fists or homicide with a gun or car, both the alcohol and the crime were my choice so I'm guilty.

If I'm enjoying a beer at home when a thug kicks in my door, I do not suddenly lose the right to defend myself and my shot is no less of a good one.

CCW and medical marijuana should be no different: it doesn't excuse anything stupid you do, and it doesn't obligate you to lay down and die.

Sharky7
08-03-2012, 08:05
I read the letter, and I agree that it says what it says,but I question the validity of what it says. It consistently qoutes the law as saying the "unlawful use of a controlled substance." If MM has been found to be legal with valid RX in whatever state a person is in, then I should think that the use in that case is lawful. Verdad?

What Sam said above.

Didn't you catch some of the news segments a few years back about the DEA raiding the medical marijuana dispensaries in California under federal law even though under California state law it was legal? Same concept.

PEC-Memphis
08-03-2012, 08:07
If I'm enjoying a beer at home when a thug kicks in my door, I do not suddenly lose the right to defend myself and my shot is no less of a good one.

CCW and medical marijuana should be no different: it doesn't excuse anything stupid you do, and it doesn't obligate you to lay down and die.

"At home" vs. "in public" are two different situations. "At home" would be much easier to defend. In many states, a BAC over the legal limit for DUI and possession of a firearm even with a permit is a BFD. The same doesn't apply at home.

It's usefulness as a painkiller is limited. If you're dying buddy is all doped up on a psychedelic drug then he shouldn't be carrying a deadly weapon around with him.

While THC is technically a psychedelic, it is a far cry from a hallucinogenic. In medical use, it is rarely used as a 'pain killer', it is used for treatment of nausea, vomiting, hunger stimulation and lowering of interocular pressure.

HerrGlock
08-03-2012, 08:56
I read the letter, and I agree that it says what it says,but I question the validity of what it says. It consistently qoutes the law as saying the "unlawful use of a controlled substance." If MM has been found to be legal with valid RX in whatever state a person is in, then I should think that the use in that case is lawful. Verdad?

Find a place in US Code that makes it possible for MJ to be legal, including in the prescription laws.

I can show you where it's not only illegal but it's a schedule 1 drug, which means it cannot be prescribed and there is no medical use for it.

CA Escapee
08-03-2012, 08:59
I did find a mistake on their reciprocity map,they show Vermont as not honoring Colorado s permit.

Vermont is a Constitutional Carry state,no permit needed.
What this means is any person,not a felon and 21 years of age,while in the borders of the state of Vermont can carry concealed.
Much as the founders intended when they wrote the US Constitution. SJ 40

I've seen that on the RMGO website too.

Here's a link to the Colorado Bureau of Investigations (CBI) showing reciprocity where it states that Vermont doesn't have permits.

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/CDPS-CBIMain/CBON/1251622200175 (http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/CDPS-CBIMain/CBON/1251622200175)

And, if you scroll to the bottom of that table, they don't recognize Colorado's permits because, "*No permit required in State of Vermont to carry a concealed handgun." Essentially, they don't recognize what they don't have. So, I could leave a Colorado permit at home and carry concealed in VT.

If that's the case in Vermont I think more states should adopt that view.:thumbsup:

Bill

Jon_R
08-03-2012, 09:10
I don't know Az law but in FL you can legally carry a gun under the influence. You can legally use the gun in lawful self defense while under the influence.

If the use is lawful or not is based on the reasonable person standard. You mental or physical capability "should" not hurt you or help you. A "reasonable" aka sober logical person is inserted into the situation with the information you had or should have had at the time and the state would have to show that it was unreasonable for that person to feel their life was in danger or they faced imminent serious bodily injury.

My opinion not knowing AZ law is your friend will need to decide if he is confident in his ability to make life and death decisions given his situation. If he is not confident in his abilities then he should not carry a gun. Either way has risk pick one and go with it.

Arc Angel
08-03-2012, 09:21
....... While THC is technically a psychedelic, it is a far cry from a hallucinogenic. In medical use, it is rarely used as a 'pain killer', it is used for treatment of nausea, vomiting, hunger stimulation and lowering of interocular pressure.

Good! :thumbsup:

Then what is it being used for by someone who's dying of cancer? There are certainly better ways to prevent vomiting than by smoking, or eating, marijuana.

(By the way, I don't believe I called marijuana an halucinogenic. Furthermore, I am certain that most of the really screwed up teenagers in our neighborhood have had, or have, some sort of personal involvement with this, 'gateway narcotic'.) ;)

Mayhem like Me
08-03-2012, 09:35
I don't know Az law but in FL you can legally carry a gun under the influence. You can legally use the gun in lawful self defense while under the influence.

If the use is lawful or not is based on the reasonable person standard. You mental or physical capability "should" not hurt you or help you. A "reasonable" aka sober logical person is inserted into the situation with the information you had or should have had at the time and the state would have to show that it was unreasonable for that person to feel their life was in danger or they faced imminent serious bodily injury.

My opinion not knowing AZ law is your friend will need to decide if he is confident in his ability to make life and death decisions given his situation. If he is not confident in his abilities then he should not carry a gun. Either way has risk pick one and go with it.


Not under the influence of illegal drugs..Your grasp of Florida law in this case is not correct.
The shooting may be justified; however, his carrying of the weapon and other felonies would be prosecuted.

Jon_R
08-03-2012, 09:42
Not under the influence of illegal drugs..Your grasp of Florida law in this case is not correct.
The shooting may be justified; however, his carrying of the weapon and other felonies would be prosecuted.

I didn't mention illegal drugs just under the influence to compare it to AZ where I assume prescribed THC is not an illegal drug.

I stand by that under the influence of a legal substance in FL is how I described it and if AZ has similar laws then prescribed THC in AZ is the same as under the influence of cough syrup is in FL.

I don't know AZ law on carrying as I stated.

HerrGlock
08-03-2012, 10:07
I didn't mention illegal drugs just under the influence to compare it to AZ where I assume prescribed THC is not an illegal drug.

I stand by that under the influence of a legal substance in FL is how I described it and if AZ has similar laws then prescribed THC in AZ is the same as under the influence of cough syrup is in FL.

I don't know AZ law on carrying as I stated.

The differences in state law are irrelevant. THC is illegal federally.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(...)
(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(...)
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/21/812
(b) Placement on schedules; findings required
Except where control is required by United States obligations under an international treaty, convention, or protocol, in effect on October 27, 1970, and except in the case of an immediate precursor, a drug or other substance may not be placed in any schedule unless the findings required for such schedule are made with respect to such drug or other substance. The findings required for each of the schedules are as follows:
(1) Schedule I.—
(A) The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse.
(B) The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States.
(C) There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision.
(...)
Schedule I
(a) Unless specifically excepted or unless listed in another schedule, any of the following opiates, including their isomers, esters, ethers, salts, and salts of isomers, esters, and ethers, whenever the existence of such isomers, esters, ethers, and salts is possible within the specific chemical designation:
(...)
(c) Unless specifically excepted or unless listed in another schedule, any material,compound, mixture, or preparation, which contains any quantity of the following hallucinogenic substances, or which contains any of their salts, isomers, and salts of isomers whenever the existence of such salts, isomers, and salts of isomers is possible within the specific chemical designation:
(...)
(10) Marihuana.

There is no gray area, there is no exception, there is no state law overriding it. Regular users of pot (prescription seems to indicate that) are prohibited from possessing a firearm and ammunition and any use of one means they're violating US Code.

Jon_R
08-03-2012, 10:23
Then you will need to be arrested by a Federal Agent and charged by a US Attorney. A state LEO and state court will not deal with you unless you violate state law. If you get a prescription in AZ for THC I assume it is not illegal in AZ under state law. Have the FEDs done this yet?



The differences in state law are irrelevant. THC is illegal federally.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/21/812


There is no gray area, there is no exception, there is no state law overriding it. Regular users of pot (prescription seems to indicate that) are prohibited from possessing a firearm and ammunition and any use of one means they're violating US Code.

HerrGlock
08-03-2012, 10:43
Then you will need to be arrested by a Federal Agent and charged by a US Attorney. A state LEO and state court will not deal with you unless you violate state law. If you get a prescription in AZ for THC I assume it is not illegal in AZ under state law. Have the FEDs done this yet?

Did you actually read the OP? It's a theoretical exercise about a possible CCW use with a regular user of MJ.

In other words your post is curious in that you seem to have taken personally something that's a textbook exercise. Interesting.

Should the OP's friend use the concealed handgun, what I posted is something I hope he thinks long and hard about as it's a very real set of circumstances to contemplate.

Another thing that might be an issue is this thread is specifically talking about an illegal act and that's against the TOS for the board. Dunno if Russ will close it but that's also a consideration.

Sharky7
08-03-2012, 10:49
Cannabis is classified as a hallucinogen. Although it might not make you trip balls like LSD, that is it's classification.

Take that for what it's worth. Even without the federal law, I would not want to test positive for a good shoot for any drug classified as such. Opens up a lot of doors and doubts regarding what happened as well as your character.

Jon_R
08-03-2012, 11:02
It did not seem theoretical. It seemed, to me at least, he has a friend diagnosed with Cancer and has to make a decision to carry or not. His friend has a prescription for THC and lives in AZ. And he asked this question.

does anyone know if he ever had to use his weapon in self-defense if the marijuana/drug issue would be a factor?

I offered some input on the scenario from a how under the influence and carrying / using a gun is for FL State Law. It's applicability to AZ law I don't know nor wish to research but generally AZ and FL are fairly gun friendly so I would expect the laws to be similar. To answer the question on a federal level I don't know if it would an issue or not from a precedence angle meaning the Federal Govt has stepped in and has prosecuted someone under this narrow circumstance described I am not aware of such happening.


Did you actually read the OP? It's a theoretical exercise about a possible CCW use with a regular user of MJ.

In other words your post is curious in that you seem to have taken personally something that's a textbook exercise. Interesting.

Should the OP's friend use the concealed handgun, what I posted is something I hope he thinks long and hard about as it's a very real set of circumstances to contemplate.

Another thing that might be an issue is this thread is specifically talking about an illegal act and that's against the TOS for the board. Dunno if Russ will close it but that's also a consideration.

SJ 40
08-03-2012, 11:30
I've seen that on the RMGO website too.

Here's a link to the Colorado Bureau of Investigations (CBI) showing reciprocity where it states that Vermont doesn't have permits.

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/CDPS-CBIMain/CBON/1251622200175 (http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/CDPS-CBIMain/CBON/1251622200175)

And, if you scroll to the bottom of that table, they don't recognize Colorado's permits because, "*No permit required in State of Vermont to carry a concealed handgun." Essentially, they don't recognize what they don't have. So, I could leave a Colorado permit at home and carry concealed in VT.

If that's the case in Vermont I think more states should adopt that view.:thumbsup:

Bill Yes ,Correct,it used to go by the term of Vermont style carry now known as Constitutional Carry.

The Vermont state constitution.

http://www.usconstitution.net/vtconst.html

Vermont article 9

http://www.usconstitution.net/vtconst.html#Article9

It has been working here since 1791,as I said as the founders intended,so if you find yourself vacationing in Vermont carrying concealed is not a problem. Isn't Freedom Grand ! SJ 40

Gunnut 45/454
08-03-2012, 11:35
jmchaney
This question came up not long ago an I truely didn't know my states laws on it! So I talked to my Sheriff who is the isuing agent for CCW. If I'm found to be under ANY intoxicant while carrying- meaning .01%+ achohol/drugs (including MJ) I would loose my permit! If I was involved in any shooting and under the influence I'd be charged accordingly! So there you go.:whistling: MJ is no differnt then achohol or anything else. :steamed:

RussP
08-03-2012, 12:27
GT Posting Rule #1, "No illegal content," is broad for a reason. It lets conversations about controversial issues happen right up until someone advocates, suggests, encourages others to act, supports, or admits to committing an illegal act.

It is a fine line, indeed. Once the illegality of an act is established, continuing to advocate or encourage others violates the Rule. I believe that is where we are in this thread in Carry Issues.