Christian Bigotry [Archive] - Glock Talk

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muscogee
08-02-2012, 16:25
http://www.afgen.com/christian_bigotry.html

As I have written several times, I have nothing against Christians or Christianity. My problem is with bigotry. Not all Christians are bigot.

SIGlock
08-02-2012, 19:39
As I have written several times, I have nothing against atheist or atheism. My problem is with bigotry. Not all atheist are bigot.

muscogee
08-02-2012, 19:51
As I have written several times, I have nothing against atheist or atheism. My problem is with bigotry. Not all atheist are bigot.

From the article.

Although Christianity does have its good points, the exclusive nature of many Christian sects opens the door to Christian bigotry. Christian bigotry is a disgusting and insidious evil. To Christian bigots themselves, their bigotry is usually invisible. It disguises itself as piety and righteousness. But to non-Christians at the receiving end, it is often plain old unadulterated bigotry.

IhRedrider
08-02-2012, 21:44
As I have written several times, I have nothing against Christians or Christianity.


I think there is a flag on the play. You hate God and anyone who follows him. This is quite apparent from your posts. At least be honest about you stance.

LASTRESORT20
08-02-2012, 21:49
`Liberal Ignorance`

muscogee
08-02-2012, 21:54
`Liberal Ignorance`

Shallow response Vlad.

muscogee
08-02-2012, 21:55
I think there is a flag on the play. You hate God and anyone who follows him. This is quite apparent from your posts. At least be honest about you stance.

It it possible that God's not a Christian?

teumessian_fox
08-03-2012, 00:57
It it possible that God's not a Christian?

You're really showing your abysmal ignorance of religion, theology and the Bible. Stop, before you embarrass yourself. Oops. Too late.

Kingarthurhk
08-03-2012, 06:11
All these negative responses will do nothing to further the cause of Christ. I perused the article, the post, and the posts and thought leaving it lay was the most prudent thing to do.

The OP is not going to be won over by attacking his OP or him.

To the OP, I am sorry you feel that way. I wish you could see the hope of a better future as we do. I am also sorry you received such harsh responses.

muscogee
08-03-2012, 06:37
You're really showing your abysmal ignorance of religion, theology and the Bible. Stop, before you embarrass yourself. Oops. Too late.

I'm ignorant because I disagree with you. I'm a liberal because I disagree with Vlad. Neither of you present any evidence to back your statements. Instead you resort to personal attacks rather than address the issues raised in the article. Neither of your arguments addresses the contention of the article. If anything, you demonstrate the type of Christian bigotry discussed in the article. As the article states, "Christian bigotry usually invisible to the Christian bigot".

Are you familiar with what the Pharisees said about Jesus? It's real similar to what you've been saying about me. Do you remember what the people of Capurnam said when Jesus started to preach? Same arguments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

ChuteTheMall
08-03-2012, 06:47
As I have written several times, I have nothing against atheists or scoffers. My problem is with anti-Christians. Not all atheists are anti-Christian.

eracer
08-03-2012, 06:48
Bigotry is based on ignorance.

What I don't understand is how some Christians ignore the New Testament, and embrace the Old, when it comes to hatred. Jesus was the epitome of love, forgiveness, and acceptance. Isn't that what makes someone a Christian? Believing in the words and deeds of Jesus? Living one's life as best one can according to his teachings?

Brucev
08-03-2012, 07:31
Bigotry is based on ignorance.

What I don't understand is how some Christians ignore the New Testament, and embrace the Old, when it comes to hatred. Jesus was the epitome of love, forgiveness, and acceptance. Isn't that what makes someone a Christian? Believing in the words and deeds of Jesus? Living one's life as best one can according to his teachings?

In just about any place/organization where people come together there are those who will be what others consider to be bigots. Their estimate may or may not be accurate.

Jesus is the last definitive Word of divine truth on any matter. His Word is authority for those who follow him. The OT and NT are subordinate to what he said.

There are issues to which Jesus did not speak precisely. The principles he enunciated for believers apply. In reference to issues such as homosexuality, same-sex marriage, etc., at no time did Jesus ever set aside or give reason for the setting aside of any OT or NT prohibitions. Jesus specifically castigated those persons and groups that failed to receive his teachings. Furthermore he specifically described in detail the consequences for those who rejected/reject his teachings.

It is not bigotry for the followers of Jesus to affirm what He himself taught. It is faithfulness that is to be expected of those who follow Him. If others think otherwise, it is simply what they think. That is all. What they think is not the consideration for those who follow Christ. For those who follow Christ, what matters is what Jesus said. His Word is the final authority in the life of the believer. What unbelievers think, etc. is of no consequence in the faith and practice of the Church.

Arc Angel
08-03-2012, 08:03
http://www.afgen.com/christian_bigotry.html

As I have written several times, I have nothing against Christians or Christianity. My problem is with bigotry. Not all Christians are bigot.

Who do you think you're kidding? In today's presumably laissez faire (socialist) world a primary form of intellectual attack is to label the target as a bigot. The Christ warned His followers, 'He who is not for Me is against Me.' Consequently what you say you are, and what you actually are, are each blatantly obvious.

Smacktard
08-03-2012, 08:21
Who do you think you're kidding? In today's presumably laissez faire (socialist) world a primary form of intellectual attack is to label the target as a bigot. The Christ warned His followers, 'He who is not for Me is against Me.' Consequently what you say you are, and what you actually are, are each blatantly obvious.


Open your eyes, it is you who has been deceived!



...

NMG26
08-03-2012, 09:00
As I have written several times, I have nothing against atheists or scoffers. My problem is with anti-Christians. Not all atheists are anti-Christian.


I'm anti-bad doctrine. A lot of the Christian doctrines are bad. Does that make me anti-Christian?

Arc Angel
08-03-2012, 09:07
Open your eyes, it is you who has been deceived! ...

Yeah, right, Smack! :freak:

When it comes to 20/20 vision I'll be perfectly candid with you, ....... Intellectually, of course, I've yet to see you demonstrate anything even close to precision thinking. I honestly believe you'd be doing well to see anything - including your TV - half as clearly as I do. (But, that's not going to shut you up, now, is it!) ;)

soflasmg
08-03-2012, 09:17
http://www.afgen.com/christian_bigotry.html

As I have written several times, I have nothing against Christians or Christianity. My problem is with bigotry. Not all Christians are bigot.

Your article is utter bull**** as is your premise.

Here is a quote from the article.

"So it's common among Christians to believe that Christians are better than other people"

The author gives no proof that this is true.

The article and your thread are simply made up anecdotes about how horrible Christians are.

I don't think you are fooling anybody here.

If you have a problem with bigotry as you say, but not with Christianity, why do you even bring up Christianity?

Let me explain my beliefs about myself as a Christian.

I'm not better than anybody and I am worse than most. It's not about me it is about God, Jesus work on the cross, and His mercy and grace towards me and all of his people.

IhRedrider
08-03-2012, 09:24
It it possible that God's not a Christian?


If this is a real question in your mind, and I'm not doubting that it is, you really have no idea what scripture says. I would encourage you to discard all your preconceived ideas and start over. Read ALL of scripture, with an open mind, and then decide for yourself what you believe to be true.

Bring_it!
08-03-2012, 09:24
As I have written several times, I have nothing against atheist or atheism. My problem is with bigotry. Not all atheist are bigot.

:rofl:

Arc Angel
08-03-2012, 09:25
Your article is utter bull**** as is your premise.

Here is a quote from the article.

"So it's common among Christians to believe that Christians are better than other people"

The author gives no proof that this is true.

The article and your thread are simply made up anecdotes about how horrible Christians are.

I don't think you are fooling anybody here.

If you have a problem with bigotry as you say, but not with Christianity, why do you even bring up Christianity?

Let me explain my beliefs about myself as a Christian.

I'm not better than anybody and I am worse than most. It's not about me it is about God, Jesus work on the cross, and His mercy and grace towards me.

:shocked: There ya go!

Now THAT is clarity of thought! God bless you, Brother. :thumbsup:

Woofie
08-03-2012, 09:48
Your article is utter bull**** as is your premise.

Here is a quote from the article.

"So it's common among Christians to believe that Christians are better than other people"

The author gives no proof that this is true.

The article and your thread are simply made up anecdotes about how horrible Christians are.

I don't think you are fooling anybody here.

If you have a problem with bigotry as you say, but not with Christianity, why do you even bring up Christianity?

Let me explain my beliefs about myself as a Christian.

I'm not better than anybody and I am worse than most. It's not about me it is about God, Jesus work on the cross, and His mercy and grace towards me and all of his people.

Don't Christians believe they are going to heaven and everyone is going to hell? How is that not an "I'm better than you" attitude?

Woofie
08-03-2012, 09:51
:shocked: There ya go!

Now THAT is clarity of thought! God bless you, Brother. :thumbsup:

Well, duh. You agree with him. You sound like too many of my old professors.

"I'm not going to give you a bad grade if you don't agree with me, so long as your reasoning is sound."

But obviously he won't think the student's reasoning is sound if he came up with a different conclusion.

Syclone538
08-03-2012, 10:10
If this is a real question in your mind, and I'm not doubting that it is, you really have no idea what scripture says. I would encourage you to discard all your preconceived ideas and start over. Read ALL of scripture, with an open mind, and then decide for yourself what you believe to be true.

I'm assuming when you say scripture you are talking about the Bible.

You think the only way to not believe the Bible is to not understand it? Is that what you are trying to say?

muscogee
08-03-2012, 10:13
Who do you think you're kidding?
I'm not kidding anyone. I'm a recovering Christian. There's nothing subtle about that statement. There are Christians that I respect. There are Christians in this forum I respect.

In today's presumably laissez faire (socialist) world a primary form of intellectual attack is to label the target as a bigot. Does that mean there are no bigots?

The Christ warned His followers, 'He who is not for Me is against Me.' Consequently what you say you are, and what you actually are, are each blatantly obvious.

Christ said a lot of things that people continually cherry pick to support whatever they want to believe. He also said that to get to Heaven you have to sell everything you have and give to to the poor. Sounds more like socialism than capitalism to me. Of course that's not what you want to hear so that's not what it means. Cut and stitch time.

NMG26
08-03-2012, 10:13
Your article is utter bull**** as is your premise.



The premise starts with God's chosen people. A people above all others that God has chosen for his own. God killed the unworthy ones in the flood so he could purify mankind.

Now Christians keep themselves pure from the world so that God will accept them. How do not not see elitism in that?

muscogee
08-03-2012, 10:21
If this is a real question in your mind, and I'm not doubting that it is, you really have no idea what scripture says. I would encourage you to discard all your preconceived ideas and start over. Read ALL of scripture, with an open mind, and then decide for yourself what you believe to be true.

It's more of an assertion than a question. It was reading the scriptures with an open mind that lead me to this conclusion.

Is it possible that the scriptures are wrong?

muscogee
08-03-2012, 10:27
All these negative responses will do nothing to further the cause of Christ. I perused the article, the post, and the posts and thought leaving it lay was the most prudent thing to do.

The OP is not going to be won over by attacking his OP or him.

To the OP, I am sorry you feel that way. I wish you could see the hope of a better future as we do. I am also sorry you received such harsh responses.

I appreciate this. You're one of the Christian I respect. The Adventists I have know were sincere people who tried to harder to lead a scriptural life than any other group I know about. That's a hard road and I respect your attempt to follow it.

muscogee
08-03-2012, 10:29
I'm anti-bad doctrine. A lot of the Christian doctrines are bad. Does that make me anti-Christian?

Good point.

muscogee
08-03-2012, 10:38
Your article is utter bull**** as is your premise.

Here is a quote from the article.

"So it's common among Christians to believe that Christians are better than other people"

The author gives no proof that this is true.

If you need proof, read what Arc Angle and others are writing in this thread.

The article and your thread are simply made up anecdotes about how horrible Christians are. The scriptures are primarily made up anecdotes.

I don't think you are fooling anybody here. What does this mean? Where was I trying to fool anyone?

If you have a problem with bigotry as you say, but not with Christianity, why do you even bring up Christianity? Because the article was about Christianity. Because there are a lot of Christian bigots in this forum. Before someone twists what I just wrote, let me add that not all the Christians in this forum are bigots. If the shoe fits...

Let me explain my beliefs about myself as a Christian.

I'm not better than anybody and I am worse than most. It's not about me it is about God, Jesus work on the cross, and His mercy and grace towards me and all of his people.

Good for you. I respect that.

Roering
08-03-2012, 11:57
As I have written several times, I have nothing against atheists or atheism. My problem is with strawmen. Not all atheists are strawmen.

IhRedrider
08-03-2012, 18:23
I'm assuming when you say scripture you are talking about the Bible.

You think the only way to not believe the Bible is to not understand it? Is that what you are trying to say?


Yes, I am talking about the Bible.

No. What I am saying is that you will never believe the Bible without trying to understand it. And even if you try to understand it doesn't mean you will ever achieve complete understanding, there are usually longstanding strongholds of misconception that we are unwilling to let go of. In addition to all of that, even if you do achieve understanding of scripture that does not mean that you will believe it. Some people are so set in themselves that they will not accept the truth even when shown.

NMG26
08-03-2012, 20:30
Yes, I am talking about the Bible.

No. What I am saying is that you will never believe the Bible without trying to understand it. And even if you try to understand it doesn't mean you will ever achieve complete understanding, there are usually longstanding strongholds of misconception that we are unwilling to let go of. In addition to all of that, even if you do achieve understanding of scripture that does not mean that you will believe it. Some people are so set in themselves that they will not accept the truth even when shown.

Who do you trust to show the truth? All the denominations that are Bible based say their interpretation is the truth.

Are you saying that God shows the truth to us and we are not willing to accept it?

Letting go of long standing misconceptions is a gift. It is not easy when your doctrinal training has been strong. I believe that the Lord does help us though, if we are willing.

Are you willing to walk away from your longstanding misconceptions?

It might take you to a place where you are no longer accepted as a Christian. That is what this thread is about. Acceptance.

Animal Mother
08-03-2012, 22:35
Yes, I am talking about the Bible.

No. What I am saying is that you will never believe the Bible without trying to understand it. And even if you try to understand it doesn't mean you will ever achieve complete understanding, there are usually longstanding strongholds of misconception that we are unwilling to let go of. In addition to all of that, even if you do achieve understanding of scripture that does not mean that you will believe it. Some people are so set in themselves that they will not accept the truth even when shown.Why would the omniscient, omnipotent creator of the Universe make his word so hard to understand, not to mention so at odds with the observed reality we inhabit?

Syclone538
08-03-2012, 23:22
Yes, I am talking about the Bible.

No. What I am saying is that you will never believe the Bible without trying to understand it. And even if you try to understand it doesn't mean you will ever achieve complete understanding, there are usually longstanding strongholds of misconception that we are unwilling to let go of. In addition to all of that, even if you do achieve understanding of scripture that does not mean that you will believe it. Some people are so set in themselves that they will not accept the truth even when shown.

So you withdraw this statement?


It it possible that God's not a Christian?If this is a real question in your mind, and I'm not doubting that it is, you really have no idea what scripture says. I would encourage you to discard all your preconceived ideas and start over. Read ALL of scripture, with an open mind, and then decide for yourself what you believe to be true.

Tilley
08-04-2012, 00:53
As I have written several times, I have nothing against Christians or Christianity. My problem is with bigotry. Not all Christians are bigot.

Naw-uh. Why are you always trying to rain on my parade?

Tilley
08-04-2012, 00:57
From the article: Although Christianity does have its good points, the exclusive nature of many Christian sects opens the door to Christian bigotry. Christian bigotry is a disgusting and insidious evil. To Christian bigots themselves, their bigotry is usually invisible. It disguises itself as piety and righteousness. But to non-Christians at the receiving end, it is often plain old unadulterated bigotry.

Let's pretend there really is a satan...wouldn't this be something a demon would say about Christians?

We know satan exists. When we read this garbage, we see satan written all over it.

Tilley
08-04-2012, 02:06
Don't Christians believe they are going to heaven and everyone is going to hell? How is that not an "I'm better than you" attitude?

Give credit where credit is due...I believe you were quoting ME!!!:supergrin:

By the way...you were my 3000th posting. How exciting!

Tilley
08-04-2012, 02:10
You're one of the Christian I respect.

Me too...right?

Arc Angel
08-04-2012, 05:21
I'm not kidding anyone. I'm a recovering Christian. There's nothing subtle about that statement. There are Christians that I respect. There are Christians in this forum I respect.

You’re a recovering Christian? How about that! I’m a recovering Christian, too. Let me continue by saying that I neither need nor require your respect. I, also, suspect that you, and I are different kinds of, ‘recovering Christians’. You seem to have completely walked away from Christianity - Which is not all that unusual a thing to do. Me? Many years ago I walked away from the organized popular Baptist faith - The faith of my birth.

Unlike yourself, though, I kept the moral overlays, the tenets and dictates, of general Judeo-Christian faith. Why? Because I believed then, as I believe now, that man without benefit of the acquired spiritual comprehension (and morality) of the past several thousand years is, for all practical intents and purposes, a genuinely, ‘lost soul’.

My suggestion to you is to be careful about being a, ‘recovered Christian’. Why? Because, right now, you’re walking along the edge of perdition. The Christ warned: ‘He who is not for Me is against Me;’ and, ‘To he who has (an appreciation of The Truth) more will be given; but to he who has not, even what he has will be taken away.’ Apparently this is where you are right now.

Does that mean there are no bigots?

Everyone who disagrees with you, or even those who take outright offense at what you say (like me), is not a bigot. Can you honestly say that the obvious antipathy you harbor against Christianity does not force you, yourself, into bigotry?

Christ said a lot of things that people continually cherry pick to support whatever they want to believe. He also said that to get to Heaven you have to sell everything you have and give to to (SIC) the poor. Sounds more like socialism than capitalism to me. Of course that's not what you want to hear so that's not what it means. Cut and stitch time.

You’re funny! First you quote entirely out of context; then you arrive at an erroneous assumption; and before any reply is made to you, at all, you presume contrived logic. Why should I care? I’m my brother’s keeper, not yours. As far as I’m concerned you’re welcome to think your own thoughts and go your own way. What I do object to, however, is the possibility of someone like you, ‘stumbling little children’; and like the spiritually sick Pharisees of old causing other, badly confused people to become even more alienated from The Truth than you, yourself, already are. Please, don’t look to, ‘Arc Angel’ to object to or impede your descent into Hell. I assure you I have absolutely no intention to interfere. It’s other people whom you might adversely influence that I care about.

Well, duh. You agree with him. You sound like too many of my old professors. "I'm not going to give you a bad grade if you don't agree with me, so long as your reasoning is sound." But obviously he won't think the student's reasoning is sound if he came up with a different conclusion.

I’m not one of your old professors; and I find it highly unlikely that you are ever going to learn anything about either God or salvation from me. Whom I agree with is, quite frankly, none of your business. Like the fellow above, I care neither one way or another about your godless opinions. I don’t have to pay for your sins - You do! So, passing grade or not, you’re welcome to draw your own conclusions. The only precaution I’m going to offer is that, apparently, you think this discussion to be academic; well, it is not. This, ‘game’ we’re all involved in is played for either life, or death; and I’ve already made up my mind which way I’m going to proceed. (By the way: It’s not my fault if you were tutored by hypocrites. When I was in college I made a strenuous personal effort to avoid such men - I still do.) ;)

steveksux
08-04-2012, 08:12
It it possible that God's not a Christian?You're really showing your abysmal ignorance of religion, theology and the Bible. Stop, before you embarrass yourself. Oops. Too late.
If this is a real question in your mind, and I'm not doubting that it is, you really have no idea what scripture says. I would encourage you to discard all your preconceived ideas and start over. Read ALL of scripture, with an open mind, and then decide for yourself what you believe to be true.

I'd bet there's a lot of religions that don't believe God is a Christian. Probably all of them that don't fall under the umbrella of "Christianity". And lots of them have their own scriptures.

Oops. Who's displaying abysmal ignorance and religious bigotry now??? :rofl:

Randy

Gunhaver
08-04-2012, 08:21
After the Chick-fil-a debacle with everyone on Facebook either stating how screwed up it is to donate $25,000 to the cause of lobbying the government to not pass a bill condemning the killing of gays or proudly proclaiming how proud they are to assist them in their twisted cause I parsed my already lean friend's list down even more. I counted 12 people who called themselves Christians and after following each of them around their pages for a bit I had 1 that had nothing to say on the matter and 3 that posted something to the effect of, "Don't judge those that sin differently than you do", or "This goes out to all those who use the name of Christ to tell others how they should live," (with a link to the song **** You by Lilly Allen). All 8 of the others had voiced their opinion that they were basically totally on board with the gay killing. Needless to say I'm down 8 friends now and much better off for it. Christian bigotry at it's best.

muscogee
08-04-2012, 15:12
Yes, I am talking about the Bible.

No. What I am saying is that you will never believe the Bible without trying to understand it. And even if you try to understand it doesn't mean you will ever achieve complete understanding, there are usually longstanding strongholds of misconception that we are unwilling to let go of. In addition to all of that, even if you do achieve understanding of scripture that does not mean that you will believe it. Some people are so set in themselves that they will not accept the truth even when shown.

(i.e., the Bible means what I want it to mean and if you disagree with me you're ignorant)

muscogee
08-04-2012, 15:16
Let's pretend there really is a satan...wouldn't this be something a demon would say about Christians?

Aren't we a little old for "let's pretend"?

We know satan exists. No we don't.

muscogee
08-04-2012, 15:18
Me too...right?

I find you amusing, not in a good way.

muscogee
08-04-2012, 15:35
Unlike yourself, though, I kept the moral overlays, the tenets and dictates, of general Judeo-Christian faith. So do I. I just reject the obvious absurdities.

Why? Because I believed then, as I believe now, that man without benefit of the acquired spiritual comprehension (and morality) of the past several thousand years is, for all practical intents and purposes, a genuinely, ‘lost soul’.

If you believe it then it must be right.

Everyone who disagrees with you, or even those who take outright offense at what you say (like me), is not a bigot. Never said they were.

Can you honestly say that the obvious antipathy you harbor against Christianity does not force you, yourself, into bigotry? One more time, my problem is with bigotry, and not Christianity.

You’re funny! First you quote entirely out of context; then you arrive at an erroneous assumption; and before any reply is made to you, at all, you presume contrived logic. Why should I care? You obviously care or you wouldn't have responded, so you tell me.

What I do object to, however, is the possibility of someone like you, ‘stumbling little children’; and like the spiritually sick Pharisees of old causing other, badly confused people to become even more alienated from The Truth than you, yourself, already are. Please, don’t look to, ‘Arc Angel’ to object to or impede your descent into Hell. I assure you I have absolutely no intention to interfere. It’s other people whom you might adversely influence that I care about. So you object to me interfering with your brainwashing? I object to your brainwashing. I think what you really object to is people not being frightened of you and your beliefs.

BuzznRose
08-04-2012, 15:44
As I have written several times, I have nothing against atheists or scoffers. My problem is with anti-Christians. Not all atheists are anti-Christian.

Yep! Most "commando atheists", the ones with the chip on their shoulder, go after Christians, and a few go after Jews. Rarely do they have the guts to go after Muslims and most dismiss Wikens (sp?) as harmless.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

muscogee
08-04-2012, 15:50
Yep! Most "commando atheists", the ones with the chip on their shoulder, go after Christians, and a few go after Jews. Rarely do they have the guts to go after Muslims and most dismiss Wikens (sp?) as harmless.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

The few Muslims we have had in this forum have been very polite. I have been polite in return. It's a two way street.

BuzznRose
08-04-2012, 15:51
So you object to me interfering with your brainwashing? I object to your brainwashing. I think what you really object to is people not being frightened of you and your beliefs.

Christianity is not a religion of fear. Honestly, those of us who truly believe and accept Christ have less fear after we accept Him, and we certainly are not trying to scare anyone into submission.

Have you ever watched the show "Beyond and Back" on the Bio channel on Sunday evenings? You should check it out. The stories of people who died and came back are stunningly similar, and all seem to have a surreal 'peace' and claim no fear of death.




Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

R4lf
08-04-2012, 15:52
http://www.afgen.com/christian_bigotry.html

As I have written several times, I have nothing against Christians or Christianity. My problem is with bigotry. Not all Christians are bigot.

I express your same views, I often find myself keeping quite when the god mob comes out. I am slowly becoming outspoken regarding these views.

For those who do still believe in the bible or any religious text I emplor you to read something based entirely off of science, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

R4lf
08-04-2012, 15:53
Christianity is not a religion of fear. Honestly, those of us who truly believe and accept Christ have less fear after we accept Him, and we certainly are not trying to scare anyone into submission.

Have you ever watched the show "Beyond and Back" on the Bio channel on Sunday evenings? You should check it out. The stories of people who died and came back are stunningly similar, and all seem to have a surreal 'peace' and claim no fear of death.




Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Have you ever watched penn and tellers bull****? They cover the same material in one of their episodes.

NMG26
08-04-2012, 15:58
Yep! Most "commando atheists", the ones with the chip on their shoulder, go after Christians, and a few go after Jews. Rarely do they have the guts to go after Muslims and most dismiss Wikens (sp?) as harmless.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine


All three, Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe they are the chosen people.

All three are exclusive clubs.

As with all exclusive clubs, there will be some "better then the rest" mentality. The word church means "called out" from the rest of the world. You are called out to be separate from the rest of us heathen.

http://executableoutlines.com/cjb/cjb_02.htm



:cool:

Cavalry Doc
08-04-2012, 16:33
After the Chick-fil-a debacle with everyone on Facebook either stating how screwed up it is to donate $25,000 to the cause of lobbying the government to not pass a bill condemning the killing of gays or proudly proclaiming how proud they are to assist them in their twisted cause I parsed my already lean friend's list down even more. I counted 12 people who called themselves Christians and after following each of them around their pages for a bit I had 1 that had nothing to say on the matter and 3 that posted something to the effect of, "Don't judge those that sin differently than you do", or "This goes out to all those who use the name of Christ to tell others how they should live," (with a link to the song **** You by Lilly Allen). All 8 of the others had voiced their opinion that they were basically totally on board with the gay killing. Needless to say I'm down 8 friends now and much better off for it. Christian bigotry at it's best.

It would be interesting to see some actual evidence of this. A form that is barely legible posted on a blog in the age of photoshop that supposedly states that someone wants to talk to a congressperson in opposition to a particular resolution that will mean nothing in the long run is awful thin when you have absolutely nothing at all on the conversation with the lobbyist and legislator.

It's markedly less than impressive.

Is there anything concrete that you have, instead of this wild mysterious speculation from a blog?

Arc Angel
08-04-2012, 17:06
So do I. I just reject the obvious absurdities.

Sure, you've already rejected The Lord Jesus Christ; so why not everything else! Besides, while you've failed to notice, what is absurd to you makes a lot of sense to others. (We're just not, 'crying in the beer' the way you are. Probably because we've got no need, and nothing to vent.)

If you believe it then it must be right.

Well, I do have you by, about, 50 years; two degrees; and, maybe, 100 IQ points. So, yes, between what you think; and what I know, I am the person who - popular or not - is more than likely to be right. (No point in being modest with someone like you, now; is there!) ;)

Never said they were.

Now you've just posting palaver in order to make some sort of reply. That's the main point behind your entire argument; and I'm sure you know it. :freak:

One more time, my problem is with bigotry, and not Christianity.

Ahh, come on! Then how come many who've replied to this thread don't see your remarks that way? Are you just some poor misunderstood and angry, 'internet atheist'? I haven't gone out of my way to cast aspersions against atheists or agnostics. You are the one who went out of your way to take cheap shots at Christians like me and mine. Whenever someone posts thinly veiled and contentious crap like the stuff you've put up on the board you've got to expect incoming fire coming back at you. Be a man and take it. ;)

You obviously care or you wouldn't have responded, so you tell me.

You're not paying attention. I TOLD YOU whom I am concerned about; but, obviously, what I said doesn't agree with your world view; so you missed something important again.

So you object to me interfering with your brainwashing? I object to your brainwashing. I think what you really object to is people not being frightened of you and your beliefs.

What? Just putting up more palaver, now; aren't you! I haven't told you what my beliefs are. Would you like to know, 'Why'? Because I'm under commandment not to: i.e.; 'Cast ye not pearls before swine; neither give what is holy to dogs; lest they trample them underfoot, and turn again and rend you.' Trust me on this: You're nowhere near the precise thinker you assume yourself to be; but that's not going to stop you from proceeding with more posts and replies like this; is it. :clown:

NMG26
08-04-2012, 17:26
'Cast ye not pearls before swine; neither give what is holy to dogs; lest they trample them underfoot, and turn again and rend you.

Hard to believe that you posted that in a thread, defending yourself of bigotry.

The bible was written from a "We are better then the world" perspective.

"God is on our side and the rest of the world it evil and going to hell".

You got to admit that that is not far from bigotry.

http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=bigotry

Kingarthurhk
08-04-2012, 17:43
Hard to believe that you posted that in a thread, defending yourself of bigotry.

The bible was written from a "We are better then the world" perspective.

"God is on our side and the rest of the world it evil and going to hell".

You got to admit that that is not far from bigotry.

http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=bigotry

I prefer to see things differently:

John 3:16-21, "<sup> </sup>For God so loved <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137V))'></sup> the world that he gave <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137W))'></sup> his one and only Son, <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137X))'></sup> that whoever believes <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137Y))'></sup> in him shall not perish but have eternal life. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137Z))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>For God did not send his Son into the world <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26138AA))'></sup> to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26138AB))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>Whoever believes in him is not condemned, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26139AC))'></sup> but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26139AD))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>This is the verdict: Light <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26140AE))'></sup> has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26140AF))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26141AG))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

God is a redeemer and wants all to come to Him.

Romans 2:1-12, "You, therefore, have no excuse, <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27964A))'></sup> you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27964B))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Or do you show contempt for the riches <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27967C))'></sup> of his kindness, <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27967D))'></sup> forbearance <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27967E))'></sup> and patience, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27967F))'></sup> not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27967G))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27968H))'></sup> , when his righteous judgment <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27968I))'></sup> will be revealed. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27969a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27969a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27969J))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27970K))'></sup> and immortality, <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27970L))'></sup> he will give eternal life. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27970M))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27971N))'></sup> there will be wrath and anger. <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27971O))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27972P))'></sup> first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27972Q))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27973R))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>For God does not show favoritism."

Matthew 10:39-41, "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23447b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23447b)]</sup> <sup class="versenum">30 </sup>And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23448AI))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">31 </sup>So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."

I am no more valuable than you, or anyone here. God does not show favortism.

So, you see, I see God differently than you.

Arc Angel
08-04-2012, 18:13
Hard to believe that you posted that in a thread, defending yourself of bigotry. The bible was written from a "We are better then the world" perspective. "God is on our side and the rest of the world it evil and going to hell". You got to admit that that is not far from bigotry.

http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=bigotry

No, you are wrong. The Holy Bible's didactic method is very far away from bigotry. It's just that from your personal point-of-view as an enemy of God you don't see things that way. All of which has me wondering: What are you going to call the Recording Angels before whom you are destined to stand in judgment?

Are you going to call Heaven's Angels bigots, too? I'll do you a huge favor, one that I don't owe you, by telling you that you're digging your own grave. Better it would be for you to keep your mouth tightly shut and your erroneous opinions to yourself. At least that way you won't have to testify against yourself after you pass. THAT would be the clever thing to do; but, alas, I doubt you'll take this advice.

Now, please understand and give credit where credit is due. A bigot wouldn't have just told you that; and, lad, I know exactly what I'm talking about. In 2009 I died thrice, and was allowed to return. I promise you, the subjective death experience leaves an indelible impression of BOTH God's authority over all conscious existence as well as His love. You should listen to someone who's already traveled to where you, too, are eventually destined to go; and, if you can't say something favorable about God's expressed written will, then, do the smart thing for yourself and remain completely silent. ;)

muscogee
08-04-2012, 18:32
Christianity is not a religion of fear. Honestly, those of us who truly believe and accept Christ have less fear after we accept Him, and we certainly are not trying to scare anyone into submission.

Maybe it shouldn't be but look what the people in this thread have been writing. They're telling everyone who disagrees with them that they are going to Hell. Some of them go so far as to say how happy it will make them to watch the rest of suffer. That's a religion of fear, threats, and in intimidation. Those people become enraged when people like me don't quake in our boots at their threats.

4Have you ever watched the show "Beyond and Back" on the Bio channel on Sunday evenings? You should check it out. The stories of people who died and came back are stunningly similar, and all seem to have a surreal 'peace' and claim no fear of death.

My wife watches stuff like that and sometimes I watch it with her. IMO, near death experiences are the basis for the belief in an afterlife. Paul had one on the road to Damascus and another on in Athens. Notice how much more common they have become as medicine has advanced and become better at bringing people back from the brink of death. People who want to believe in an afterlife will see that as evidence. People who study this feel it is a hallucination caused by the brain slowly dying. I don't believe it's just Christians who experience this.

Smacktard
08-04-2012, 18:43
......

muscogee
08-04-2012, 18:46
I express your same views, I often find myself keeping quite when the god mob comes out. I am slowly becoming outspoken regarding these views.

For those who do still believe in the bible or any religious text I emplor you to read something based entirely off of science, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

Welcome to the forum. I was in the closet for many years because it wasn't safe to be honest about your lack of belief. Being honest could cost you your job and cause you all kinds of grief. It could make it impossible to get anything done because people would always be harassing and threatening you. I just pretended to be a backsliding Christian. It wasn't until I joined this forum that I became outspoken. At the time people like me were seriously outnumbered. It's been good to see the sides even out. At least one believer has switched sides. Another realized that what he thought he knew wasn't necessarily true left the forum to rethink his beliefs. It was the thoughtful people who did this. IMO, that's the way the world will go if we can have an open debate. Thoughtful people will leave the faith. Thoughtless people will become more frustrated, hostile, and dogmatic. A lifetime of brainwashing is really hard to overcome.

muscogee
08-04-2012, 19:23
Sure, you've already rejected The Lord Jesus Christ; so why not everything else! Besides, while you've failed to notice, what is absurd to you makes a lot of sense to others. (We're just not, 'crying in the beer' the way you are. Probably because we've got no need, and nothing to vent.)
You're not venting now?

Well, I do have you by, about, 50 years; two degrees; and, maybe, 100 IQ points. So, yes, between what you think; and what I know, I am the person who - popular or not - is more than likely to be right. (No point in being modest with someone like you, now; is there!) ;) Your age is irrelevant and does not necessarily imply maturity or wisdom. Some people grow up, others just grow old. If you have 50 years on me then you're 115 years old. The rest of your statements are just as false.

Why do you feel the need to brag? That's a sign of insecurity and immaturity. If you can't answer that you can always respond with an ad hominem argument.

Lone Wolf8634
08-04-2012, 20:44
Hey muscogee, IMHO when someone posts something like this :

Well, I do have you by, about, 50 years; two degrees; and, maybe, 100 IQ points. So, yes, between what you think; and what I know, I am the person who - popular or not - is more than likely to be right. (No point in being modest with someone like you, now; is there!)

There is no longer any point in talking with them.

The arrogance is strong in this one.

All you can do is laugh.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

NMG26
08-04-2012, 20:45
So, you see, I see God differently than you.


We are not talking about how we see God. We are talking about the Bible.

I see God as love. I have faith and hope for today. The bible has it's roots in tribalism. The Jews were at war and needed a God on their side to win. This is a very effective method of winning. The Gymnast that won the gold in the all around, Gave all the glory to God.

I really do find that faith is the best way to win in battle.

This is where the theist is more fierce then the atheist. God is on his side.

I ramble though Art! When I was a Christian I noticed the elitism all around me. Each denomination thinks that it has it right and the others have it wrong. Did you look at the link of synonyms that I posted? There are some interesting ones there.


Anglophobia, Russophobia, Sabbatarianism, abhorrence, abomination (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=abomination), anti-Semitism (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=anti-Semitism), antipathy (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=antipathy), authoritarianism, aversion (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=aversion), balkiness, bias (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=bias), bibliolatry (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=bibliolatry), blind side, blind spot (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=blind%20spot), blinders (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=blinders), bullheadedness, closed mind, cramped ideas, despitefulness, determination (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=determination), detestation, dislike (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=dislike), doggedness, dogmaticalness, dogmatism (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=dogmatism), evangelicalism, excessiveness (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=excessiveness), execration (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=execration), extravagance (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=extravagance), extremeness, extremism (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=extremism), fanaticalness, fanaticism (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=fanaticism), fixed mind, fundamentalism (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=fundamentalism), hardheadedness, hate (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=hate), hatred (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=hatred), headstrongness, hideboundness, hyperorthodoxy, illiberality, infallibilism, inflexible will, insularism, insularity (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=insularity), intolerance (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=intolerance), literalism, little-mindedness, littleness (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=littleness), loathing (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=loathing), malevolence (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=malevolence), malice (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=malice), malignity, mean mind, meanness (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=meanness), misandry, misanthropy (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=misanthropy), misogyny (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=misogyny), mulishness, narrow-mindedness (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=narrow-mindedness), narrow sympathies, narrow views, narrowness, nearsightedness (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=nearsightedness), obduracy, obstinacy (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=obstinacy), obstinateness, odium (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=odium), odium theologicum, opinionatedness, overenthusiasm, overreaction, overreligiousness, overzealousness, parochialism (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=parochialism), partiality (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=partiality), peremptoriness, perfervidness, perseverance (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=perseverance), pertinacity (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=pertinacity), pettiness (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=pettiness), petty mind, pigheadedness, positiveness, positivism (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=positivism), precisianism, prejudice (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=prejudice), provincialism (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=provincialism), purblindness, purism, puritanicalness, puritanism, rabidness, race hatred, racism (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=racism), repugnance (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=repugnance), restiveness, sabbatism, scripturalism, self-opinionatedness, self-will, shortsightedness, shut mind, smallness (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=smallness), spite (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=spite), spitefulness, staunchness, stiff-neckedness, stiff neck, straitlacedness, strict interpretation, strictness (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=strictness), strongheadness, stubbornness (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=stubbornness), stuffiness (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=stuffiness), sulkiness, sullenness, tenaciousness, tenacity (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=tenacity), ultrazealousness, uncatholicity, uncooperativeness, unregenerateness, vials of hate, vials of wrath, willfulness, xenophobia (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=xenophobia), zealotism, zealotry (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=zealotry)

NMG26
08-04-2012, 21:02
No, you are wrong. The Holy Bible's didactic method is very far away from bigotry. It's just that from your personal point-of-view as an enemy of God you don't see things that way.

I am not an enemy of God.

I am not talking to God. I am talking to you, man.

Your dogma is what I am addressing.




All of which has me wondering: What are you going to call the Recording Angels before whom you are destined to stand in judgment?

I have faith in God right now. I do not fear the future because the same God that is with me now, will be with me then. I am not preaching fear. I am talking about faith, hope, and love. That is about it.



Are you going to call Heaven's Angels bigots, too?


Why would I do that?





I'll do you a huge favor, one that I don't owe you, by telling you that you're digging your own grave. Better it would be for you to keep your mouth tightly shut and your erroneous opinions to yourself. At least that way you won't have to testify against yourself after you pass.

Yeah right. You preach your fear and call me a dog afterwards. I do not fear the future because I have faith in the now.


you can't say something favorable about God's expressed written will, then, do the smart thing for yourself and remain completely silent. ;)

Take your own advice. I am not talking unfavorable about God. We are talking about your religion, sir.


:cool:

Gunhaver
08-04-2012, 21:16
It would be interesting to see some actual evidence of this. A form that is barely legible posted on a blog in the age of photoshop that supposedly states that someone wants to talk to a congressperson in opposition to a particular resolution that will mean nothing in the long run is awful thin when you have absolutely nothing at all on the conversation with the lobbyist and legislator.

It's markedly less than impressive.

Is there anything concrete that you have, instead of this wild mysterious speculation from a blog?

Well, short of the CFA CEO standing up at a podium and publicly declaring that he supports the execution of gays there's really not much of a smoking gun if that's what you want. You know how this goes. You can't even get these people to admit that evolution is a reality so it's clear they can bury their heads away from any truth they want.

Here's the bill, http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/12/18/ugandas-anti-homosexuality-bill-full-text-with-commentary/

How much of that can you get behind?

And here's the FRC page that they took down (but the internet never forgets) where they misrepresent the bill as simply an effort to protect children. Hmm, where have we heard that one before? The fact that they took it down is a pretty good indicator that they expected to catch too much flak for that stance wouldn't you think?
http://web.archive.org/web/20100315131339/http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=CM10B11

That bill you (maybe) just read allows for the imprisonment of "repeat offenders" (read, those that continue to be gay) and specifies all manner of nobody-else's-damn-business type sexual activity as criminal, obviously leaving the door open for the death penalty for most any type of homosexual activity and not just intentionally spreading HIV as so many will say when defending it. So blind squirrel Obama managed to find a nut and opposed the bill and the FRC opposed that sentiment and spent $25,000 lobbying against the effort to officially condemn it.

And CFA gives a whole crapload of money to FRC. So you have to connect a whopping 3 dots but it's true. Not that that matters to people who either don't like gays or really love their chicken sammiches or most likely both.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8022/7701596678_8751a968a6_z.jpg

Animal Mother
08-04-2012, 21:40
In 2009 I died thrice, and was allowed to return. I promise you, the subjective death experience leaves an indelible impression of BOTH God's authority over all conscious existence as well as His love. You should listen to someone who's already traveled to where you, too, are eventually destined to go; Hindus who have had near death experiences report having seen Hindu deities, including Yamaraja. What should we take from these accounts?
if you can't say something favorable about God's expressed written will, then, do the smart thing for yourself and remain completely silent. ;)Well, I do have you by, about, 50 years; two degrees; and, maybe, 100 IQ points. So, yes, between what you think; and what I know, I am the person who - popular or not - is more than likely to be right. (No point in being modest with someone like you, now; is there!) ;) It's odd that you brag of your education and intellect while advocating a position which is actively anti-intellectual and directly opposed to education.

muscogee
08-05-2012, 07:21
Hey muscogee, IMHO when someone posts something like this :



There is no longer any point in talking with them.

The arrogance is strong in this one.

All you can do is laugh.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Thanks. You're right. Dick measuring contests are so adolescent.

muscogee
08-05-2012, 07:58
I see God as love.

Thanks for that. You are absolutely right. Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love your God and the second was to love your neighbor. He went on to say that all the commandments hang on these two. If more believers would listen the what Jesus said, and what you just said, there would be less friction between believers and non-believers. There probably be more believers as well. IMO, Christians who deviate from these to commandments miss the point.

Cavalry Doc
08-05-2012, 08:05
Well, short of the CFA CEO standing up at a podium and publicly declaring that he supports the execution of gays there's really not much of a smoking gun if that's what you want. You know how this goes. You can't even get these people to admit that evolution is a reality so it's clear they can bury their heads away from any truth they want.

Here's the bill, http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/12/18/ugandas-anti-homosexuality-bill-full-text-with-commentary/

How much of that can you get behind?

And here's the FRC page that they took down (but the internet never forgets) where they misrepresent the bill as simply an effort to protect children. Hmm, where have we heard that one before? The fact that they took it down is a pretty good indicator that they expected to catch too much flak for that stance wouldn't you think?
http://web.archive.org/web/20100315131339/http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=CM10B11

That bill you (maybe) just read allows for the imprisonment of "repeat offenders" (read, those that continue to be gay) and specifies all manner of nobody-else's-damn-business type sexual activity as criminal, obviously leaving the door open for the death penalty for most any type of homosexual activity and not just intentionally spreading HIV as so many will say when defending it. So blind squirrel Obama managed to find a nut and opposed the bill and the FRC opposed that sentiment and spent $25,000 lobbying against the effort to officially condemn it.

And CFA gives a whole crapload of money to FRC. So you have to connect a whopping 3 dots but it's true. Not that that matters to people who either don't like gays or really love their chicken sammiches or most likely both.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8022/7701596678_8751a968a6_z.jpg

Now, isn't that a little insensitive of you. It's interesting to watch liberals generalize and make fun of people while being offended that others don't approve of their ideas/positions. Even funnier when they have to resort to an obviously rushed Photoshop job to do it. That poor girl might be gay too.

There is one part of the bill I can get behind. It appears that if a person intentionally rapes a child under 18, and the rapist has HIV, that they are eligible for the death sentence. I'm cool with that. We should do the same.

That also appeared to be the only way to get the death penalty. Even the commenter in the article you linked to didn't show any other way to get the death penalty. The problem with your dots, is that you have to use a lot of imagination to get where you got, and also ignore some inconvenient facts. Uganda law already provides for imprisonment for homosexuality. In other countries, you can be killed just for being gay.

My advise is to M-O-V-E away from there if you are gay. It's a very bad place, run by bad people, run, do not walk, to the exit.

Still, the fact is that we don't know what lobbying took place, it could have been a plea to not condemn the bill that would hold child rapists accountable, and that is it. Who knows?

So, no, I have not found anything to get my panties into a wad over some donations that appear on the surface to be pro nuclear family.

There are plenty of people that have protested what I have been for years, I always snickered a bit, and went on about my business, because they were completely ineffective in stopping me. Same should go for the gay community, just be yourself, be adult about it, and move on. Not everyone is going to like you in this world, it's the way it is. This CFA protest thing is backfiring badly, move on.

Arc Angel
08-05-2012, 08:10
:upeyes: You know, some of you guys are like obstreperous children; and the Internet is, unquestionably, your medium. I hear ya, OK; and I'm going to remind that: 'He who laughs last, laughs best.' You'll see! ;)

You consider the present conscious moment to be reality; but, after this moment passes, it's then that the greater, and actual, reality appears. When this inevitability finally arrives I have no doubt - no doubt, whatsoever - that my words of warning shall ring in your ears! I was kind to you; and you really should have listened. Now, all that's in front of you is God's wrath. He's got more than a few hard lessons for you to learn. Try your smart Alec remarks with Him, and see how far you get. :thumbsup:

snowbird
08-05-2012, 09:51
Well, I read the whole thread.

IMHO, Arc Angel deserves a +1, and Muscogee a Fail.

Kingarthurhk
08-05-2012, 10:22
Thanks for that. You are absolutely right. Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to love your God and the second was to love your neighbor. He went on to say that all the commandments hang on these two. If more believers would listen the what Jesus said, and what you just said, there would be less friction between believers and non-believers. There probably be more believers as well. IMO, Christians who deviate from these to commandments miss the point.

Jesus took this to a whole new level:

Matthew 5:43-47, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor<sup class="footnote" value='[i (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23278i)]'>[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23278i)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23278AW))'></sup> and hate your enemy.’ <sup class="crossreference" value='(AX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23278AX))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">44 </sup>But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23279AY))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">45 </sup>that you may be children <sup class="crossreference" value='(AZ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23280AZ))'></sup> of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23280BA))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">46 </sup>If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? <sup class="crossreference" value='(BB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23281BB))'></sup> Are not even the tax collectors doing that? <sup class="versenum">47 </sup>And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"

This is typically one of the hardest of the commandments as it goes against our natural grain.

But, Jesus, even while He was dying on the cross said these words:

Luke 23:34, "Jesus said, “Father, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-25970Z))'></sup> forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-25970c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+23&version=NIV#fen-NIV-25970c)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-25970AA))'></sup> And they divided up his clothes by casting lots."

Mark 10:42-45, "Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. <sup class="versenum">43 </sup>Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24632AT))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">44 </sup>and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. <sup class="versenum">45 </sup>For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24634AU))'></sup> and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

This is what we are to emulate as Christians. We don't always succeed. But, once we deviate our eyes from Jesus, that is when the trouble begins.

Kingarthurhk
08-05-2012, 12:37
More on the love of Jesus:

http://www.seventh-day.org/steps1.htm

Lone Wolf8634
08-05-2012, 13:50
:upeyes: You know, some of you guys are like obstreperous children; and the Internet is, unquestionably, your medium. I hear ya, OK; and I'm going to remind that: 'He who laughs last, laughs best.' You'll see! ;)

You consider the present conscious moment to be reality; but, after this moment passes, it's then that the greater, and actual, reality appears. When this inevitability finally arrives I have no doubt - no doubt, whatsoever - that my words of warning shall ring in your ears! I was kind to you; and you really should have listened. Now, all that's in front of you is God's wrath. He's got more than a few hard lessons for you to learn. Try your smart Alec remarks with Him, and see how far you get. :thumbsup:

Poster boy for the thread title.

Don't you have a choir to preach to or sumthin?





Oh, wait, here's one.

Well, I read the whole thread.

IMHO, Arc Angel deserves a +1, and Muscogee a Fail.

Smacktard
08-05-2012, 15:33
:upeyes: You know, some of you guys are like obstreperous children; and the Internet is, unquestionably, your medium. I hear ya, OK; and I'm going to remind that: 'He who laughs last, laughs best.' You'll see! ;)

You consider the present conscious moment to be reality; but, after this moment passes, it's then that the greater, and actual, reality appears. When this inevitability finally arrives I have no doubt - no doubt, whatsoever - that my words of warning shall ring in your ears! I was kind to you; and you really should have listened. Now, all that's in front of you is God's wrath. He's got more than a few hard lessons for you to learn. Try your smart Alec remarks with Him, and see how far you get. :thumbsup:


So sad, some people will believe anything. I've often wondered what's like to live in a fantasy.


.....

muscogee
08-05-2012, 15:38
:upeyes: You know, some of you guys are like obstreperous children; and the Internet is, unquestionably, your medium. I hear ya, OK; and I'm going to remind that: 'He who laughs last, laughs best.' You'll see! ;)

You consider the present conscious moment to be reality; but, after this moment passes, it's then that the greater, and actual, reality appears. When this inevitability finally arrives I have no doubt - no doubt, whatsoever - that my words of warning shall ring in your ears! I was kind to you; and you really should have listened. Now, all that's in front of you is God's wrath. He's got more than a few hard lessons for you to learn. Try your smart Alec remarks with Him, and see how far you get. :thumbsup:

So you don't buy into the God is love argument?

Lone Wolf8634
08-05-2012, 15:47
So you don't buy into the God is love argument?


He can't hear you over the sound of how awesome he is.

muscogee
08-05-2012, 16:02
He can't hear you over the sound of how awesome he is.

You're right. It must be hard to carry all those years, all those degrees, and all that wisdom on just two shoulders. We're truly blessed to be in the presence of such an Übermensch.

Lone Wolf8634
08-05-2012, 16:16
You're right. It must be hard to carry all those years, all those degrees, and all that wisdom on just two shoulders. We're truly blessed to be in the presence of such an Übermensch.

The qualities of arrogance, conceit, smugness and condescension are bad enough, but when you combine them with a judgmental fanaticism they quickly become intolerable.

Like I said, poster boy for the thread title.

427
08-05-2012, 16:28
An example of Christian bigotry? Look no further than Martin Luther's written works, On the Jews and Their Lies and Of the Unknowable Name and the Generations of Christ.

Luther wanted to rid Germany of Jews. Hitler tried to do it 400 years later. Coincidence?

Kingarthurhk
08-05-2012, 17:09
An example of Christian bigotry? Look no further than Martin Luther's written works, On the Jews and Their Lies and Of the Unknowable Name and the Generations of Christ.

Luther wanted to rid Germany of Jews. Hitler tried to do it 400 years later. Coincidence?

I think 1260 years of RCC violence, torture, genocide, oppression and suppression has him beat hands down.

427
08-05-2012, 19:30
I think 1260 years of RCC violence, torture, genocide, oppression and suppression has him beat hands down.

The hate from martin luther keeps giving today as evidenced by the attitudes from some Protestants (some posters on this forum) to other Christians. This is the 21st century, not the 1500s.

Arc Angel
08-05-2012, 19:48
:upeyes: One more reply before you guys get too utterly awesome for me:

You're not venting now?

No, everyone who disagrees with you is not venting. Besides, you needn’t worry about me venting; in the not too distant future you’re going to have much bigger problems to worry about.

Your age is irrelevant and does not necessarily imply maturity or wisdom. Some people grow up, others just grow old. If you have 50 years on me then you're 115 years old. The rest of your statements are just as false.

Au contraire! Age is important. Perhaps James A. Michener said it best: ‘Anyone who is older than 50 and managed to stay out of jail has reason to be proud of himself.’ If you’re 65 years of age and have managed to stay on the right side of the law all your life, then you have some reason to be proud, yourself. Now, I said, ‘about’. So the statement is qualified. It was, in fact, my best guess; and I based it on the level of intellect and spiritual maturity I’ve observed in your posts. I’ve got to tell you: If, in fact, you’re 65 years of age then it’s impossible for me to overlook the fact that you’ve already gone through more than two-thirds of your life and learned very little about the really important matters of the human spirit.

If you need evidence, take an objective view of your numerous posts in GT’s Religious Issues Forum. All you ever do is dissemble, ridicule, and insult the Christian faith. (Which causes me to wonder, ‘Who’ and, ‘What’ you really are?

Why do you feel the need to brag? That's a sign of insecurity and immaturity. If you can't answer that you can always respond with an ad hominem argument.

I feel no need to brag. Unlike you, I don’t pretend. Yes, I’m fully aware that in today’s effete and decadent American society, being proud of yourself is frowned upon; but, most of that frowning is done by social charlatans and pretenders - All of whom know in their hearts that, ‘taking the easy way out’ is their preferred way of life. They are mediocre individuals; that’s all they are ever going to be; and, quite naturally, they are quick to cast aspersions on anyone they perceive as putting more effort into his life or, for a fact, actually being better than themselves. Me? I’m not like that. All my life I’ve pushed myself to be more than whatever I happened to be at the moment. The opposite approach is for cunning, ‘internet cynics’ to be constantly criticizing, ‘their betters’ in order to create the tacit illusion of personal superiority across cyberspace. (You know, ‘Who’ I’m referring to - Right!) ;)

I refuse to be effete, and either: socially, morally, or spiritually decadent. Neither do I feel the same need you OBVIOUSLY do to demean somebody else’s faith in order to give myself an illusionary, ‘aura of intellectualism’. Neither am I going to argue with you, anymore. Now that I know you’re 65 years of age, AND of your present state-of-mind and spiritual development, I’m going to just sit back and wait. I’ve already told you what’s going to happen. It matters to me not, ‘one sous’ what, hereafter, becomes of your crafty soul. I said, ‘You’ll see’; and you shall.

Hey muscogee, IMHO when someone posts something like this : …… There is no longer any point in talking with them. The arrogance is strong in this one. All you can do is laugh.

Well, you started out right when you stated, ‘IMHO’. I am, also, going to agree that there is little point in continuing this conversation; but, the intellectual dogma belongs to you, and not to me. One of the prerequisites to laughter is that you’ve first got to know, ‘What’ you’re laughing at, or about. The reality is that of the thousands of people with whom I’ve had face-to-face dealings in real life; and among dozens and dozens of other board members with whom I’ve interfaced on the Internet, nobody, until you, has ever referred to me as, ‘arrogant’. I, also, have too much self-respect to ever say something insulting - or in this case, false - about a person via the Internet that I wouldn’t be willing to walk right up to him and say to his face.

(And, again, unlike you I earned my living for more than 30 years by deliberately telling other people the truth; many times while I was in a courtroom and sitting in a witness stand. Can you, honestly, say as much? I’m not a person who uses Glock Talk’s Religious Issues Forum as a podium to dump evil thoughts all over other peoples’ religious beliefs. You guys are the ones who do that!)

I am not an enemy of God. I am not talking to God. I am talking to you, man. Your dogma is what I am addressing.

Define, ‘enemy’? Neither is it, ‘my dogma’ that you are addressing. That’s only a subterfuge on your part. You might fool others with that sort of lingo; but you don’t fool me. You are just one more Religious Issues Forum, ‘hacker’ who uses this website to vent your anger at God and all those who seek to honestly serve Him. You’re just another, ‘Christian hater’; and you darn well know it.

I have faith in God right now. I do not fear the future because the same God that is with me now, will be with me then. I am not preaching fear. I am talking about faith, hope, and love. That is about it.

That’s pseudo-religious palaver; and, again, I’m sure you realize it. (You’re just hoping that I don’t.) You have stated in another post that you are no longer a Christian. How is that? You speak of, ‘God’; but you deny His Son. The Christ said, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life.’ He, also, said, ‘I and the Father are one.’ This, ‘God’ you claim to serve is, then, not the God of the Holy Bible; neither can he be the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, according to your own (obviously) contradictory personal statements: Which, ‘God’ do you serve? You say, ‘your God’ is with you now; and you do not fear the future. Know what? I think that you should. Why? Because it is spiritually naïve and unrealistic to believe that the One True God (the Christian God) whom you presume to serve and whose Son you have consciously denied should make any significant measure of His love available to you. You have no more than the same, ‘faith’, and the exact same hope available to you that all sinners have: Your faith is muddled; and, with a certain sense of amusement, I’ve noticed that it lapses in and out of that same Christian faith which you have actively denied.

The truth is that you should be very afraid; if, in fact, you were a genuinely clever individual you would realize the import and necessity of the Psalmist’s remarks, ‘Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and put your trust in The Lord;’ as well as the further explanatory remark, ‘The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit and a contrite heart.’ Try to be honest, both, with me AND with yourself: Wherein have you demonstrated this sort of repentant attitude in any of your replies? The clear truth is that you haven’t. You’re only making, ‘high sounding noises’ and pretending. All you’re doing now is, ‘preaching to the choir’; and, mister, I’m positive you know it. Make no mistake: You have very good personal reasons to be very afraid - Not of me, but of God.

Why would I do that?

How is it that you completely fail to realize that is EXACTLY what you are doing right now!

Yeah right. You preach your fear and call me a dog afterwards. I do not fear the future because I have faith in the now.

That’s a lie. I am not preaching fear to anyone anymore than The Christ, whom I serve, preached fear to the Scribes and Pharisees of His day. Are you a, ‘dog’? I will leave that up to you to decide. You say that: ‘You do not fear the future because you have faith in the now.’ Well, for once I (almost) believe you. I agree that you are, indeed, a, ‘creature of the present moment.’ Like all other spiritually immature souls you take, ‘faith’ and place your, ‘hope’ in the present moment. Now I see what, ‘your faith’ actually is! You believe that you can indulge yourself in any way that you choose and escape all future consequences of your immediate actions. (Like all of these false accusations you’ve leveled against me.) ‘Your hope’ is the belief that you will escape being called to account for your arrogant and self-assuming misdeeds. (Gotcha, now, don’t I.) :supergrin:

Take your own advice. I am not talking unfavorable about God. We are talking about your religion, sir.

First, it’s NOT, ‘my religion’. Everything I know, everything I studied while I was in seminary, revolves around Judeo-Christian faith. Unlike you, I profess myself to be a Christian. You should NOT blame me if you completely fail to grasp the essence of that faith which - out of your own mouth - you have rejected. Apparently you missed it the first time; so I’ll say it, again: Christ said, ‘He who is not for Me is against Me.’ If YOU are not for Christ then you stand against Him; AND, consequently, you have very good reason - but, apparently, not enough spiritual sense - to be afraid.

Hindus who have had near death experiences report having seen Hindu deities, including Yamaraja. What should we take from these accounts?

It's odd that you brag of your education and intellect while advocating a position which is actively anti-intellectual and directly opposed to education.

Now, now, Animal Mother! You, of all people, should know better than to point a finger at either specious, pretended, or angry intellect - You, of all people!

Your opening statement is worthy of some small reply, though: The great intellectual gifts of the: Torah, Prophets, Sacred Jewish Writings, and New Testament are all expressions of God’s eternal love for fallen mankind. Herein, and ONLY HEREIN, is the Judeo-Christian God personally revealed to mankind; BUT, not to all mankind. Apparently you’ve dabbled in Eastern Religion. OK, then you are aware that there is more than one path to soulful salvation and return to God.

Knowing this, you should be able to recognize that God does not speak to all men in exactly the same way. To a Buddhist, God speaks in one way; to a Hindu, in another; to a Jew or a Christian, God has the option of speaking more personally. Why personally? Because God has previously revealed Himself to Christians and Jews. This information should reveal to you the stupidity of your own remark. Do you presume to imagine that God speaks to dead Americans in French; or to dead Frenchmen in English? (See how silly your position is!) You should be more careful, Animal Mother. Your presumption of an analytical and superior intellect is doing an unerring job of leading you far, far away from the spiritual truths of material being.

Well, I read the whole thread. IMHO, Arc Angel deserves a +1, and Muscogee a Fail.

Now THAT, in this thread, I did NOT expect, snowbird. Thank you, Brother! :)

Poster boy for the thread title. Don't you have a choir to preach to or sumthin? Oh, wait, here's one.

Whoa! Like the snarling dog in your avatar, Lone Wolf, you’re just being mean and surly. Wherein, might I ask, is the presumed readily available, ‘love of God’ in your remarks? You know, guy, if you don’t want your true character and motivation to show through you’re going to have to do a better job of pretending. ;)

So sad, some people will believe anything. I've often wondered what's like to live in a fantasy.

Smackturd, you, of all people, live in a world replete with all sorts of illusory fantasies. You prove this with almost every reply you make.

OK, I’m done with this now. I’ve previously alluded to you guys as, ‘obstreperous children’; and that’s exactly what you are - Obstreperous spiritual children who live in the present moment and think they can get away with even the most obscene of their personal fantasies. I’ve warned you of the coming Judgment; and you’ve taken me to task for it. Even a 65 year old man, of all people, has refused to quit scoffing and hold his tongue. (Talk about evidence of a wasted life!) I don’t need to continue this argument any further. Denigrate me all you like. In line with another of Christ’s warnings we’ll, all, get this sorted out at a future date: i.e., ‘But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment.’ I know, I’ve said this before; but you guys really need to hear it again. ;)

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/every_idle_word.htm

muscogee
08-05-2012, 20:43
So the statement is qualified. It was, in fact, my best guess; and I based it on the level of intellect and spiritual maturity I’ve observed in your posts. What qualifies you to evaluate my level of intellectual and spiritual maturity?

I’ve got to tell you: If, in fact, you’re 65 years of age then it’s impossible for me to overlook the fact that you’ve already gone through more than two-thirds of your life and learned very little about the really important matters of the human spirit.

I was a true believer for 41 of those years. I really wanted to believe and tried my best to believe. The Bible just doesn't make sense.

I feel no need to brag. Then why do you do it?

Unlike you, I don’t pretend. About what am I pretending?

Yes, I’m fully aware that in today’s effete and decadent American society, being proud of yourself is frowned upon; Pride goes before the fall. You don't believe the scriptures either.

but, most of that frowning is done by social charlatans and pretenders - All of whom know in their hearts that, ‘taking the easy way out’ is their preferred way of life. They are mediocre individuals; that’s all they are ever going to be; and, quite naturally, they are quick to cast aspersions on anyone they perceive as putting more effort into his life or, for a fact, actually being better than themselves. Me? I’m not like that. All my life I’ve pushed myself to be more than whatever I happened to be at the moment. I refuse to be effete, and either: socially, morally, or spiritually decadent. You're such a big scary guy. I bet you've got a really big one.

Neither do I feel the same need you OBVIOUSLY do to demean somebody else’s faith in order to give myself an illusionary, ‘aura of intellectualism’. What have you been attempting to do this entire post?

Neither am I going to argue with you, anymore. Are too.

I said, ‘You’ll see’; and you shall. It always comes down to this doesn't it. You don't have logic or facts on your side so you threaten me with your God because baseless threats are all you really have. You would like to be a bully but no one's afraid of you. Must be frustrating.

(And, again, unlike you I earned my living for more than 30 years by deliberately telling other people the truth; How do you know what he''s done? In my case you've shown yourself to be a very poor judge of character. Still trying to bully and frighten people. If someone as vain, pompous, condescending and proud as you goes to Heaven,the rest of us have nothing to worry about. You're a living breathing contradiction of the Christian lifestyle.

NMG26
08-05-2012, 21:19
Define, ‘enemy’? Neither is it, ‘my dogma’ that you are addressing. That’s only a subterfuge on your part. You might fool others with that sort of lingo; but you don’t fool me. You are just one more Religious Issues Forum, ‘hacker’ who uses this website to vent your anger at God and all those who seek to honestly serve Him. You’re just another, ‘Christian hater’; and you darn well know it.


Anger at God and Christian hater?

Sounds like a bigoted answer to me.

Do you want to call me a dog again?

Syclone538
08-05-2012, 21:47
Yes, I am talking about the Bible.

No. What I am saying is that you will never believe the Bible without trying to understand it. And even if you try to understand it doesn't mean you will ever achieve complete understanding, there are usually longstanding strongholds of misconception that we are unwilling to let go of. In addition to all of that, even if you do achieve understanding of scripture that does not mean that you will believe it. Some people are so set in themselves that they will not accept the truth even when shown.

So you withdraw this statement?


It it possible that God's not a Christian?If this is a real question in your mind, and I'm not doubting that it is, you really have no idea what scripture says. I would encourage you to discard all your preconceived ideas and start over. Read ALL of scripture, with an open mind, and then decide for yourself what you believe to be true.

NMG26
08-05-2012, 21:52
That’s pseudo-religious palaver; and, again, I’m sure you realize it. (You’re just hoping that I don’t.) You have stated in another post that you are no longer a Christian. How is that? You speak of, ‘God’; but you deny His Son. The Christ said, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life.’ He, also, said, ‘I and the Father are one.’ This, ‘God’ you claim to serve is, then, not the God of the Holy Bible; neither can he be the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Faith grows. Faith changes. I grew out of Christianity as I grew in my faith.

The fact that I no longer qualify as a Christian does not mean that I do not qualify as a believer in God and Christ.

Your dogmatic responses are not hard for me to comprehend or address. You can remain on your high horse and think of me as a simpleton, or you can take a step back and give me some respect.

You must look down on all who do not agree with your dogmatic Ideology? That is where we get "bigot" from.

If the shoe fits, wear it.



So, according to your own (obviously) contradictory personal statements: Which, ‘God’ do you serve? You say, ‘your God’ is with you now; and you do not fear the future. Know what? I think that you should. Why? Because it is spiritually naïve and unrealistic to believe that the One True God (the Christian God) whom you presume to serve and whose Son you have consciously denied should make any significant measure of His love available to you. You have no more than the same, ‘faith’, and the exact same hope available to you that all sinners have: Your faith is muddled; and, with a certain sense of amusement, I’ve noticed that it lapses in and out of that same Christian faith which you have actively denied.


Sir I am 47.

At the age of 17 I sought out God and found God through prayer and Bible study. Through the Christian faith I developed a personal relation with God through Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and much time seriously working on my faith.

I am greatly influenced by Paul's writings. "Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.........."

The 20+ years that a person spends working a faith, does not just leave. But I did have some revelation moments that caused me to question, learn, and grow, past the doctrine that was ingrained in me. I say I grew because I have never hated God, nor do I hate Christians. I talk faith, because faith is all I have ever known.

You call me naive and unrealistic? I am being as real as I can be with you. You are sharing your dogmatic Ideology with me. It is what you know. It is all you can do. I have been there and hear what you are saying.

The truth is that you should be very afraid;........Make no mistake: You have very good personal reasons to be very afraid - Not of me, but of God.


Your dogmatic Ideology is all about fear for those that do not hold your position. You start with fear and you end with fear.

"perfect love casts out fear"

God is love. I do not fear love, nor should you.
Love never fails.

Animal Mother
08-05-2012, 22:03
Now, now, Animal Mother! You, of all people, should know better than to point a finger at either specious, pretended, or angry intellect - You, of all people! Why is that exactly?
Your opening statement is worthy of some small reply,Imagine my delight.
though: The great intellectual gifts of the: Torah, Prophets, Sacred Jewish Writings, and New Testament are all expressions of God’s eternal love for fallen mankind. Herein, and ONLY HEREIN, is the Judeo-Christian God personally revealed to mankind; BUT, not to all mankind. Apparently you’ve dabbled in Eastern Religion. OK, then you are aware that there is more than one path to soulful salvation and return to God.

Knowing this, you should be able to recognize that God does not speak to all men in exactly the same way. To a Buddhist, God speaks in one way; to a Hindu, in another; to a Jew or a Christian, God has the option of speaking more personally. Why personally? Because God has previously revealed Himself to Christians and Jews. This information should reveal to you the stupidity of your own remark. Do you presume to imagine that God speaks to dead Americans in French; or to dead Frenchmen in English? (See how silly your position is!) It appears you're trying to say that when a Hindu dies and sees Yamaraja he's actually seeing some aspect of the Christian God tuned to his belief system. Is that a correct representation of your position? If so, can you objectively demonstrate that your position is more valid than the reverse, that when a Christian dies and encounters angels or Jesus, they're actually seeing an aspect of Vishnu or Yamaraja taking an appearance which will be recognized by a Christian?
You should be more careful, Animal Mother. Your presumption of an analytical and superior intellect is doing an unerring job of leading you far, far away from the spiritual truths of material being. Please do correct my error and demonstrate some of the spiritual truths in an objective manner verified by evidence or do you expect everyone to just take your word for it?

NMG26
08-05-2012, 22:09
That’s a lie. I am not preaching fear to anyone anymore than The Christ, whom I serve, preached fear to the Scribes and Pharisees of His day. Are you a, ‘dog’? I will leave that up to you to decide. You say that: ‘You do not fear the future because you have faith in the now.’ Well, for once I (almost) believe you. I agree that you are, indeed, a, ‘creature of the present moment.’ Like all other spiritually immature souls you take, ‘faith’ and place your, ‘hope’ in the present moment. Now I see what, ‘your faith’ actually is! You believe that you can indulge yourself in any way that you choose and escape all future consequences of your immediate actions. (Like all of these false accusations you’ve leveled against me.) ‘Your hope’ is the belief that you will escape being called to account for your arrogant and self-assuming misdeeds. (Gotcha, now, don’t I.) :supergrin:

You think?

You call me spiritually immature.

You call me indulgent.

You call me arrogant.

I think that you are a lot like me.

The Bible can be used as a book of fear and you do it well. All I am saying about you is that you preach your dogmatic ideology and you preach fear. Admit that.

"Perfect love casts out fear".



.

NMG26
08-05-2012, 22:18
First, it’s NOT, ‘my religion’. Everything I know, everything I studied while I was in seminary, revolves around Judeo-Christian faith. Unlike you, I profess myself to be a Christian. You should NOT blame me if you completely fail to grasp the essence of that faith which - out of your own mouth - you have rejected. Apparently you missed it the first time; so I’ll say it, again: Christ said, ‘He who is not for Me is against Me.’ If YOU are not for Christ then you stand against Him; AND, consequently, you have very good reason - but, apparently, not enough spiritual sense - to be afraid.


You call me spiritually immature, but you can not even admit that we are talking about your religion.

Your dogmatic ideological interpretation of your religion is a message of fear.

Your high horse mentality has been nurtured by nothing other they your religion. You got religious issues bro. Glad you are here.




.

Lone Wolf8634
08-06-2012, 07:51
:upeyes:


Deleted because it's pointless to argue with one such as this.

GreenDrake
08-06-2012, 08:04
He can't hear you over the sound of how awesome he is.

HAAAAA, perfect.

Geko45
08-07-2012, 18:19
But god loves you...

:upeyes:

Kingarthurhk
08-07-2012, 19:06
The hate from martin luther keeps giving today as evidenced by the attitudes from some Protestants (some posters on this forum) to other Christians. This is the 21st century, not the 1500s.

So, all that torture, murder, genocide, repression, supression, and blasphemy by the RCC you give a free pass? Disturbing.

GreenDrake
08-08-2012, 05:41
But god loves you...

:upeyes:

And he needs your money.

muscogee
08-08-2012, 06:58
And he needs your money.

He's omnipotent. He created the heavens and the earth, but he just can't seem to handle money.

Lone Wolf8634
08-08-2012, 07:24
But god loves you...

:upeyes:

And he needs your money.

He's omnipotent. He created the heavens and the earth, but he just can't seem to handle money.


Do you have no shame?:steamed:

At least credit George........





:tongueout::rofl::tongueout::rofl:

GreenDrake
08-08-2012, 07:33
Do you have no shame?:steamed:

At least credit George........





:tongueout::rofl::tongueout::rofl:

One of his best schticks ever. http://rense.com/general69/obj.htm
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of s^%$ you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful a@# a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

scccdoc
08-08-2012, 07:42
http://www.afgen.com/christian_bigotry.html

As I have written several times, I have nothing against Christians or Christianity. My problem is with bigotry. Not all Christians are bigot.

That's not what I got from reading many of your posts.

Geko45
08-08-2012, 08:34
And he needs your money.

and your starship.

Roering
08-08-2012, 13:48
An example of Christian bigotry? Look no further than Martin Luther's written works, On the Jews and Their Lies and Of the Unknowable Name and the Generations of Christ.

Luther wanted to rid Germany of Jews. Hitler tried to do it 400 years later. Coincidence?

Ahh Luther. He started out on the right track in life but once he became disconnected from the body I think Satan got a hold of him. He gave in to his pride and bared bad fruit.

Cavalry Doc
08-08-2012, 16:13
Ahh Luther. He started out on the right track in life but once he became disconnected from the body I think Satan got a hold of him. He gave in to his pride and bared bad fruit.

I think it's "bore".

Kingarthurhk
08-08-2012, 17:19
Ahh Luther. He started out on the right track in life but once he became disconnected from the body I think Satan got a hold of him. He gave in to his pride and bared bad fruit.

Ironic. Considering the tree he came from was already hanging with rotten fruit.

Roering
08-08-2012, 18:29
Ironic. Considering the tree he came from was already hanging with rotten fruit.

Yes, as Christ said there will always be tares among the wheat. Heck, even among the twelve there was one.

Kingarthurhk
08-08-2012, 18:41
Yes, as Christ said there will always be tares among the wheat. Heck, even among the twelve there was one.

And now they call him "papa".

Roering
08-09-2012, 09:54
And now they call him "papa".

Sure we have had bad ones in the past. Fortunately we have a good leader right now.

NMG26
08-09-2012, 14:23
Sure we have had bad ones in the past. Fortunately we have a good leader right now.

Lots of reasons for the other Christian sects to look down on Catholicism. That is where the op is coming from. No matter how much you explain your position you will still be just a step below thatotherchristiangroup.

Roering
08-09-2012, 14:50
Lots of reasons for the other Christian sects to look down on Catholicism. That is where the op is coming from. No matter how much you explain your position you will still be just a step below thatotherchristiangroup.

We're more than looked down on. When it comes to SDA's et-al, we are downright hated.

token5gtd
08-09-2012, 15:04
I was raised in a baptist church throughout my childhood, played drums for the church band, was "saved" and all that jazz, then got out in my mid teens when I was mature enough to think for myself regarding life choices and religious issues. I am 23 now and don't regret a thing.

There were several people of the congregation I truly love and to an extent consider them extended family to this day. However, the overwhelming majority of "chrisitians" I've grown up around embody the EXACT definition of bigotry as discussed in this thread.

If it wasn't some condescending, holier-than-thou ******* telling you that you're not a good enough christian, its the elitist upper class "crooks" that just go to church to be seen in hopes of padding their rep's as "good honest Christians" when the reality is all they are doing is trying to sneak into the congregations pockets.

I still have respect for the honest people who see religion as a way to better themselves and see it as something to live for. At the same time I see them as naive and gullable that they would so willingly gobble up such questionable (most often ridiculous) scripture as "truth." What happened to common sense?

If you need a pastor to read you the "rules" for life and tell you how to live, from a book that was written thousands of years ago by men for all we know were looneys, I think you should be seeking a shrink rather than religion.

This goes for ALL religion, not just Christianity... worshiping a BEING they cannot see, hear, or touch is pure lunacy in my eyes.

Schabesbert
08-09-2012, 15:31
I was raised in a baptist church throughout my childhood, played drums for the church band, was "saved" and all that jazz, then got out in my mid teens when I was mature enough to think for myself regarding life choices and religious issues.
I hear this exact same story over & over agian. Amazing how this "revelation" always seems to coincide with peak hormonal years.

I speak from experience. I felt that way, too, in my teens.

For some, they "re-visit" the issue with some adult clarity, often coming to the opposite conclusion.

Others, though, refuse to look at things again. Sometimes it's out of laziness, other times from arrogance (not wanting to consider that an earlier, immature conclusion could possibly be wrong). Sometimes, it's out of fear of having to give up a hedonistic lifestyle:

“When the modern critical intellectual says he can no longer accept the doctrine of the Trinity and the Real Presence in the Eucharist, it usually means, ‘I’m sleeping with my neighbor’s wife.’”

Vic Hays
08-09-2012, 15:32
We're more than looked down on. When it comes to SDA's et-al, we are downright hated.

A really large percentage of SDA's are former Catholics.

We do not hate Catholics. It is the practices of the Catholic Church that we hate because we see the abuses of the past continuing into the future.

The position we hold in regards to the Catholic Church and the Bible is the same that was held historically by the Protestant Churches. This does not make us haters of Catholics.

token5gtd
08-09-2012, 15:34
For some, they "re-visit" the issue with some adult clarity, often coming to the opposite conclusion.




So you're saying that just because I was a teen when I got out, it was just my hormones that made me decide that I don't want to waste my life worshiping something that doesn't exist?

Sorry, I don't think any amount of "adult clarity" will make me believe in God, Satan, Heaven, Hell... When God and or Satan appear in front me and say "Here I am." Then I will believe and you can all say I told you so.

Schabesbert
08-09-2012, 15:36
We're more than looked down on. When it comes to SDA's et-al, we are downright hated.
As predicted by Our Lord.

Chesafreak
08-09-2012, 15:50
I hear this exact same story over & over agian. Amazing how this "revelation" always seems to coincide with peak hormonal years.

I speak from experience. I felt that way, too, in my teens.

For some, they "re-visit" the issue with some adult clarity, often coming to the opposite conclusion.

Others, though, refuse to look at things again. Sometimes it's out of laziness, other times from arrogance (not wanting to consider that an earlier, immature conclusion could possibly be wrong). Sometimes, it's out of fear of having to give up a hedonistic lifestyle:

“When the modern critical intellectual says he can no longer accept the doctrine of the Trinity and the Real Presence in the Eucharist, it usually means, ‘I’m sleeping with my neighbor’s wife.’”

I left the Jehovahs Witnesses when I was thirteen. I flat our refused to go anymore. Many times in my life I have revisited religion and have attended various churches to try to find where I fit in.

What I found is that the older and more educated I get, the less I buy into the bible and religion. I don't buy into your theory of laziness or fear of giving up a hedonistic lifestyle. There are enough convicted pedophiles, greedy bastards, and adulterers that served in positions of trust in churches over the years to disprove that theory.

For me my doubts are about what can and cannot be proved, and I believe that throughout history churches have used symbolism and religion to control the masses.

I have wanted so badly to believe at times but just couldn't get past the leap of faith required to be a christian.

If christianity was so great, people would be flocking to it instead of christians having to go out and convert the masses.

I'm not trying to be ugly and dis on christians, only telling you how I feel about it.

GreenDrake
08-09-2012, 16:05
Chesa, I have a good friend who was JW until his late 20's when he left. He summed it up as this "JW takes all the extremes of every religion and applies NONE of the benefits" He too was disfellowshipped as they call it, even his own family will not talk to him. Truly sad that any religion can divide blood like that.

Schabesbert
08-09-2012, 16:13
So you're saying that just because I was a teen when I got out, it was just my hormones that made me decide that I don't want to waste my life worshiping something that doesn't exist?
Nope. Not saying that.
However, at least anecdotally, I've heard your story sooo many times (I was in my early teens ...) that it certainly isn't a coincidence. This doesn't mean that every case is hormonally induced, but it sure seems to mean that the preponderance are.

Sorry, I don't think any amount of "adult clarity" will make me believe in God, Satan, Heaven, Hell... When God and or Satan appear in front me and say "Here I am." Then I will believe and you can all say I told you so.
okey-dokey :wavey:

Schabesbert
08-09-2012, 16:19
I left the Jehovahs Witnesses when I was thirteen. I flat our refused to go anymore. Many times in my life I have revisited religion and have attended various churches to try to find where I fit in.
"Fit in?" Rather than using emotional criteria, I prefer to follow the truth, wherever that might lead.


What I found is that the older and more educated I get, the less I buy into the bible and religion. I don't buy into your theory of laziness or fear of giving up a hedonistic lifestyle. There are enough convicted pedophiles, greedy bastards, and adulterers that served in positions of trust in churches over the years to disprove that theory.
How would that disprove my theory?

For me my doubts are about what can and cannot be proved, and I believe that throughout history churches have used symbolism and religion to control the masses.
Interesting sliding scale of evidence you exhibit here. God has to be "proved", but you "believe" that churches control the masses.

I have wanted so badly to believe at times but just couldn't get past the leap of faith required to be a christian.
Not me. I so wanted to NOT believe.

If christianity was so great, people would be flocking to it instead of christians having to go out and convert the masses.
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."
- Gilbert K. Chesterton

token5gtd
08-09-2012, 16:26
For me my doubts are about what can and cannot be proved, and I believe that throughout history churches have used symbolism and religion to control the masses.



You hit it right on the head sir. Religion is the world's first form of totalitarian government, nothing more, nothing less.

Back in those days people would believe damn near anything, just take witch burnings for example.

If you were alive back then and someone promised you eternal life and happiness and all you had to do was obey "the word," you wouldn't have had the wisdom to second guess it, or if you did you'd be so jaded by the bogus promises that you'd fall right in line and fail to question anything.

What else would be a "valid" reason for the crusades? Why else would you slaughter hundreds of thousands just because they hold different believes as you? I tell you why, because until they buy into YOUR bull****, you have absolutely no power over them except to exterminate. What do you think the goal of radical Islamists is today?

Schabesbert
08-09-2012, 16:32
What else would be a "valid" reason for the crusades? Why else would you slaughter hundreds of thousands just because they hold different believes as you? I tell you why, because until they buy into YOUR bull****, you have absolutely no power over them except to exterminate. What do you think the goal of radical Islamists is today?
Well, this is a dead giveaway.
It's quite apparent that you haven't really tried to learn any factual history at all, despite your protestations.

Here's a short intro from aruably the world's leading authority on the Crusades:
The Real History of the Crusades (http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/madden/03463.html)

token5gtd
08-09-2012, 16:51
Well, this is a dead giveaway.
It's quite apparent that you haven't really tried to learn any factual history at all, despite your protestations.

Here's a short intro from aruably the world's leading authority on the Crusades:
The Real History of the Crusades (http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/madden/03463.html)

So... droves of people weren't murdered in the name of God?

Seems that would be the only truth that holds any water to me.

Schabesbert
08-09-2012, 17:00
So... droves of people weren't murdered in the name of God?
That's correct.

"Murdered" is certainly uncorrect. These were wars. "Droves" is certainly an imprecise word (why didn't you use something a little more precise? ).

These wars were a response to Muslim aggression (sound familiar?) over centuries.

Seems that would be the only truth that holds any water to me.
Can't argue with you about what would hold water for you. I can only tell you the truth about these matters.

Cavalry Doc
08-09-2012, 17:39
That's correct.

"Murdered" is certainly uncorrect. These were wars. "Droves" is certainly an imprecise word (why didn't you use something a little more precise? ).

These wars were a response to Muslim aggression (sound familiar?) over centuries.


Can't argue with you about what would hold water for you. I can only tell you the truth about these matters.

Droves of people have been killed by people. Having 23 chromosomes would be a more accurate cause for the effect some are analyzing around here.

But some CHOOSE to believe that theistic religion has caused more deaths than human cooperation.

muscogee
08-09-2012, 20:01
We're more than looked down on. When it comes to SDA's et-al, we are downright hated.

But less hated than atheists.

muscogee
08-09-2012, 20:04
As predicted by Our Lord.

All you Christians say that.

muscogee
08-09-2012, 20:10
I hear this exact same story over & over agian. Amazing how this "revelation" always seems to coincide with peak hormonal years.

I speak from experience. I felt that way, too, in my teens.

For some, they "re-visit" the issue with some adult clarity, often coming to the opposite conclusion.

Others, though, refuse to look at things again. Sometimes it's out of laziness, other times from arrogance (not wanting to consider that an earlier, immature conclusion could possibly be wrong). Sometimes, it's out of fear of having to give up a hedonistic lifestyle:

“When the modern critical intellectual says he can no longer accept the doctrine of the Trinity and the Real Presence in the Eucharist, it usually means, ‘I’m sleeping with my neighbor’s wife.’”

big·ot·ry   [big-uh-tree]
noun, plural big·ot·ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigotry?s=t

Anyone who does not see things as you do is morally or intellectually inferior or immature. I wish you would listen to yourself. See any pride in that statement?

Cavalry Doc
08-09-2012, 20:27
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigotry?s=t

Anyone who does not see things as you do is morally or intellectually inferior or immature. I wish you would listen to yourself. See any pride in that statement?

Just want to check, but can I use that without paying a fee?

That is sig line material right there.

muscogee
08-09-2012, 20:32
So... droves of people weren't murdered in the name of God?

Seems that would be the only truth that holds any water to me.

Schabesbert will also tell you that the Inquisition didn't happen either. He knows everything he believes is true because he has researched the propaganda of his his church and his church says it's true.

Kingarthurhk
08-09-2012, 20:40
We're more than looked down on. When it comes to SDA's et-al, we are downright hated.

I don't hate you. However, I do have a severe problem with the history and doctrines of the church you attend. But, you as a person, I have no qualms with.

Kingarthurhk
08-09-2012, 20:44
But less hated than atheists.

I don't hate you either. I try to live a life without hate. Such feelings are miserable, for the one experiencing it. So, hate is a wasted emotion.

A further caviat beyond that is, I have no reason to hate you, even if I chose to be a hateful person.

muscogee
08-09-2012, 21:17
I don't hate you either. I try to live a life without hate. Such feelings are miserable, for the one experiencing it. So, hate is a wasted emotion.

A further caviat beyond that is, I have no reason to hate you, even if I chose to be a hateful person.

Adventists are the exceptions to the rule. I've known several and none of them were hateful. Most Christians are not hateful but those that are make up for the rest. No one is more hateful than someone one who is hateful in the name of God.

Chesafreak
08-10-2012, 04:14
"Fit in?" Rather than using emotional criteria, I prefer to follow the truth, wherever that might lead.

I meant "fit in" as in something I could believe in.

How would that disprove my theory?

Others, though, refuse to look at things again. Sometimes it's out of laziness, other times from arrogance (not wanting to consider that an earlier, immature conclusion could possibly be wrong). Sometimes, it's out of fear of having to give up a hedonistic lifestyle:

You listed all of the reasons that you think people would refuse to take another look at religion. Maybe they refuse because they have made up their mind what they do or don't believe in. Why would laziness, arrogance, or fear of giving up a hedonistic lifestyle make any difference? Its not like anyone who had something to hide would fear the church. Just the opposite actually. I think many people have used the church to try to hide or suppress their evil tendencies. I'm sure that all of us have heard news of pedo's, greed, adultery etc. in the church.

http://www.skeptictank.org/clrabuse.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_involving_evangelical_Christians

snowbird
08-10-2012, 06:26
I hear this exact same story over & over agian. Amazing how this "revelation" always seems to coincide with peak hormonal years.

I speak from experience. I felt that way, too, in my teens.

For some, they "re-visit" the issue with some adult clarity, often coming to the opposite conclusion.

Others, though, refuse to look at things again. Sometimes it's out of laziness, other times from arrogance (not wanting to consider that an earlier, immature conclusion could possibly be wrong). Sometimes, it's out of fear of having to give up a hedonistic lifestyle:

“When the modern critical intellectual says he can no longer accept the doctrine of the Trinity and the Real Presence in the Eucharist, it usually means, ‘I’m sleeping with my neighbor’s wife.’”

Great post!

Been there, done that. Became an agnostic at 16, but by the Grace of God, returned to Christ at 28.

Interestingly, three of the reasons mentioned for not reconsidering the faith of our fathers, turn out to be 3 of the 7 Deadly Sins: Sloth, Pride, and Lust.

Another one is Gluttony. I was also blessed with a grandfather who warned me in boyhood that the Devil often baits his hook with either a woman or the bottle.

Chesafreak, yes, the Devil loves it when he manages to snare someone right from the alter rail, but that does not invalidate the salvation that many others have experienced. If you're trying to claim that modern Western liberalism is a superior religion, well, just look around you at the decadence that liberalism hath wrought: materialism, pornography, sodomy masquerading as holy matrimony, and defense of bloody, genocidal Islam, while denigrating that which is good, just, worthy and beautiful. We need a return to Christian moral clarity. Friend, turn back, you are on the wrong path.

Schabesbert
08-10-2012, 06:44
Anyone who does not see things as you do is morally or intellectually inferior or immature. I wish you would listen to yourself. See any pride in that statement?
In YOUR statement, falsely putting words in my mouth? Yes. But that reflects more on YOU, and the fact that you have to pretend that I had said things which I hadn't in order for you to dispute it.

Schabesbert
08-10-2012, 06:46
Schabesbert will also tell you that the Inquisition didn't happen either.
See what I mean?

Do you work for the Obama campaign? Or, at least, Priorities USA?

He knows everything he believes is true because he has researched the propaganda of his his church and his church says it's true.
I can tell you're not very familiar with actual history from here on planed Earth. You're comfortable, however, without knowing.

Schabesbert
08-10-2012, 06:47
I don't hate you. However, I do have a severe problem with the history and doctrines of the church you attend.
Yes; you DO have a severe problem with actual, true history and the doctrines of the Church that Jesus started.

Chesafreak
08-10-2012, 07:43
Chesafreak, yes, the Devil loves it when he manages to snare someone right from the alter rail, but that does not invalidate the salvation that many others have experienced. If you're trying to claim that modern Western liberalism is a superior religion,


I made no such claim. I was only pointing out why I thought that Schabesbert's argument on why some choose not to revisit religion was invalid.

I have no doubt that its a good thing to live your life with values aligned with your bible and your religion. In fact, I am happy that my children are being raised by their mom to go to church and volunteer at their church's food bank, even if I don't personally believe in everything they are teaching. When they get older they will be free to believe and worship as they see fit and make their own choices. The alternative to how their mom is raising them could be much worse. I personally do my best to live my life by the ten commandments, not because I believe or don't believe that they are from god, but because they make sense as good values.

well, just look around you at the decadence that liberalism hath wrought: materialism, pornography, sodomy masquerading as holy matrimony, and defense of bloody, genocidal Islam, while denigrating that which is good, just, worthy and beautiful. We need a return to Christian moral clarity.

That liberalism hath wrought, or maybe FREEDOM to think for yourself and choose? If an american violates a law of Iran, does that make him a criminal according to american laws and beliefs? That is an example of how even though a married gay coulple may not believe in god or the bible, they are wrong in your eyes, but they are living their lives right according to thier own beliefs and laws. Just because you believe they are morally wrong does not make it so. Its still just YOUR belief. Pushing christian beliefs on non christians and saying they are wrong for their beliefs is just B.S.

Those things can be found inside or outside of any religion. It doesn't take christianity to have good values. My fiance does not believe in god. Her parents instilled good moral values in her without involving religion. We don't have to hold the threat of hell over our kid's heads to raise them with good values. That all depends on good parenting.

Friend, turn back, you are on the wrong path.

Just because I'm not following the same path you are does not make it the wrong path. I am on my own path. Thanks for your concern.

Chesafreak
08-10-2012, 07:51
Chesafreak, yes, the Devil loves it when he manages to snare someone right from the alter rail, but that does not invalidate the salvation that many others have experienced.

Salvation is nothing more than a belief and conviction.

snowbird
08-10-2012, 09:34
It doesn't take christianity to have good values

That's what Mohammed, Marx, and Mao thought.

muscogee
08-10-2012, 09:38
In YOUR statement, falsely putting words in my mouth? Yes. But that reflects more on YOU, and the fact that you have to pretend that I had said things which I hadn't in order for you to dispute it.

I'm not the one doing these things.

I hear this exact same story over & over agian. Amazing how this "revelation" always seems to coincide with peak hormonal years.

I speak from experience. I felt that way, too, in my teens.

For some, they "re-visit" the issue with some adult clarity, often coming to the opposite conclusion.

Others, though, refuse to look at things again. Sometimes it's out of laziness, other times from arrogance (not wanting to consider that an earlier, immature conclusion could possibly be wrong). Sometimes, it's out of fear of having to give up a hedonistic lifestyle:

“When the modern critical intellectual says he can no longer accept the doctrine of the Trinity and the Real Presence in the Eucharist, it usually means, ‘I’m sleeping with my neighbor’s wife.’”

I stand by my statement.

muscogee
08-10-2012, 09:52
See what I mean? Did the Inquisition happen and was it conducted be members of the Roman Catholic church? The last I heard from you on this you're opinion was that it didn't.

Do you work for the Obama campaign? Or, at least, Priorities USA? Fish!!!

I can tell you're not very familiar with actual history from here on planed Earth. You're comfortable, however, without knowing. Are you familiar with history not written by the Roman Catholic church?

All organizations bend the truth to fit their spin. Do you seriously consider things you encounter that are contrary to church spin of do you dismiss them without thought with thought and immediately start looking for reasons they can't be true? That's called bias. It prevents people from seeing the truth.

Vic Hays
08-10-2012, 09:54
Yes; you DO have a severe problem with actual, true history and the doctrines of the Church that Jesus started.

Jesus did start a Church. Your sect has however, deviated considerably.

From the Gospel of salvation in Jesus to being the moral police of the world without Jesus.

From the humbleness of Christ to the claim of all authority with the pomp and display of the great of the earth.

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke on you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest to your souls.
11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Vatican Pope: A New World Order, One World Religion & Central Bank NWO - BibleOrTraditions - YouTube

muscogee
08-10-2012, 09:57
That's what Mohammed, Marx, and Mao thought.

Fish!!!

Schabesbert
08-10-2012, 09:58
I'm not the one doing these things.
That's funny, because you DID in the posting I quoted.

I stand by my statement.
So does Stephanie Cutter. That makes TWO of you who are being dishonest, and yet double down on your dishonesty.

Here's an example of your dishonesty:
Originally Posted by muscogee
Schabesbert will also tell you that the Inquisition didn't happen either.
Since you can't argue against things I really said, you have to make stuff up. Shame on you.

muscogee
08-10-2012, 10:02
That's funny, because you DID in the posting I quoted.


So does Stephanie Cutter. That makes TWO of you who are being dishonest, and yet double down on your dishonesty.

Here's an example of your dishonesty:

Since you can't argue against things I really said, you have to make stuff up. Shame on you.

Not going around the logical fallacy Mulberry bush with you again.

Chesafreak
08-10-2012, 10:04
That's what Mohammed, Marx, and Mao thought.

Your argument is ludacris.

In reply, here's a partial list of christian serial killers:


Hitler was a Roman Catholic alter Boy and wrote of wanting to be a Catholic priest. He and his men in charge of killing six million Jews were Catholic religious fanatics until death.
Stalin went to college to be a Protestant Christian minister. He became president of Russia and time after time had millions murdered.
Bruce Lee murdered 26 people. The Flint Journal article says "Bible reading was his only consolations" and he quoted the bible saying "Matthew 6, verse 24 no servant can be a serve of two masters."
David Berkowitz (Corbis) called the SON OF SAM, murdered more than 10 women. The newspaper said "He called himself a born again Christian"
Berwid The article in the Flint Journal quotes him "I was searching the bible and soul searching and I decided God wanted me to do that."
The Yorkshire Rapier "was on a divine mission and felt he had been chosen to hear the word of GOD (JESUS)." Reported the Flint Journal. He murdered 11 girls.
Miller a serial killer had that thing called faith, believed in Jesus. The Flint Journal article says he was always carrying the Bible.
Sampson Kanderayi, a mass murderer called The Ax Killer, killed more than 30 people. The newspaper reported "he did it to appease evil spirits." He was a Christian
Watts, The Sunday Morning Slasher killed 11 women. This article says he did it "to eliminate evil spirits".
http://home.comcast.net/~pobrien48/serial_killers.htm

Schabesbert
08-10-2012, 10:07
Jesus did start a Church. Your sect has however, deviated considerably.
The fact that you're arguing against historical FACT is, well, interesting.

From the Gospel of salvation in Jesus to being the moral police of the world without Jesus.
Other than polemic, this simply represents your distorted opinion.

From the humbleness of Christ to the claim of all authority with the pomp and display of the great of the earth.
Christ was humble, but He DID have All Authority.
Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me

Do you consider that factual statement to be hubris?

Christ also bestowed His Authority on His Body on Earth: the Church. Do you consider that factual statement to be hubris?

Mt 18:17 ... if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Mt 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Mt 18:18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

1Ti 3:15 ... the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

I suppose all these statements are lacking humility, as well.
Be sure to tell Jesus that.


:tinfoil:
Weird conspiracy theory for nutcases removed to be charitable to Vic.

Schabesbert
08-10-2012, 10:09
Not going around the logical fallacy Mulberry bush with you again.
Right. It'll just embarass you.

Probably the same thing Stephanie Cutter will say on the news.

snowbird
08-10-2012, 10:34
Fish!!!

In other news, for the THIRD TIME THIS WEEK, jihadists in Afghan army uniform have attacked coalition soldiers. Three US troops were just MURDERED by treacherous Muslims. This is after we spent how many lives of our brave armed forces, a trillion or so of our tax dollars, and operated oh-so-fairly under the premise that 'Islam is a religion of peace'? Obama and NATO big brass assure us everything is okay, and Muscogee says, "Fish!!!" How much does a traitor get paid these days, I wonder; still 30 pieces of silver?


Question: How might you turn a Muslim into a Taliban? Answer: Turn your back on him.

Conversely, how do you turn a Taliban into an 'innocent civilian' (at least in the eyes of disloyal dhimmis)? Answer: Shoot him.

Vic Hays
08-10-2012, 10:38
:tinfoil:
Weird conspiracy theory for nutcases removed to be charitable to Vic.

Yes, we wouldn't want anyone to become alarmed by believing that satan is scheming on them would we?

I Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:
5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brothers that are in the world.

muscogee
08-10-2012, 10:39
In other news, for the THIRD TIME THIS WEEK, jihadists in Afghan army uniform have attacked coalition soldiers. Three US troops were just MURDERED by treacherous Muslims. This is after we spent how many lives of our brave armed forces, a trillion or so of our tax dollars, and operated oh-so-fairly under the premise that 'Islam is a religion of peace'? Obama and NATO big brass assure us everything is okay, and Muscogee says, "Fish!!!" How much does a traitor get paid these days, I wonder; still 30 pieces of silver?


Question: How might you turn a Muslim into a Taliban? Answer: Turn your back on him.

Conversely, how do you turn a Taliban into an 'innocent civilian' (at least in the eyes of disloyal dhimmis)? Answer: Shoot him.

Fish!!!

Chesafreak
08-10-2012, 10:41
In other news, for the THIRD TIME THIS WEEK, jihadists in Afghan army uniform have attacked coalition soldiers. Three US troops were just MURDERED by treacherous Muslims. This is after we spent how many lives of our brave armed forces, a trillion or so of our tax dollars, and operated oh-so-fairly under the premise that 'Islam is a religion of peace'? Obama and NATO big brass assure us everything is okay, and Muscogee says, "Fish!!!" How much does a traitor get paid these days, I wonder; still 30 pieces of silver?


Question: How might you turn a Muslim into a Taliban? Answer: Turn your back on him.

Conversely, how do you turn a Taliban into an 'innocent civilian' (at least in the eyes of disloyal dhimmis)? Answer: Shoot him.

Its amazing how many people have been murdered because of conflicting religious beliefs. The world would be a safer place if everyone were atheists.

"god made me do it" or "god told me to do it". Do a google search on that.

Roering
08-10-2012, 10:46
Vic,

Do you really believe this stuff that you post from youtube?

snowbird
08-10-2012, 11:07
Your argument is ludacris.

In reply, here's a partial list of christian serial killers:



The Bible says, "Thou shalt do no murder", so any unrepentant serial killer, by definition, is obviously not a genuine Christian.

Furthermore, FYI, Stalin was a communist atheist who murdered millions of Christians. Bruce Lee was probably a Taoist, martial artist who never murdered anybody. And your Hitler was almost certainly a homosexual coprophile who was another atheist mass murderer of Christians.

Freedom, as envisioned by our Christian Founding Fathers, is fine for "diversities of operations, but God is the same which worketh all in all" (1Corinthians 12:6), but we need to be careful not to make 'liberty' an idol above God. Freedom means being free to do the right thing, which is put forward in the Bible. Today's perverse society's 'freedom' has given us a divorce epidemic, a plethora of contraception and abortion leading to the depopulation of Western nations, the continual advance of homosexualism, the destruction of the family, and advancing immorality to the point where resistant Christians are increasingly persecuted for their 'heresies' against the new leftist orthodoxy.

Whether you believe it or not, this is indeed the wrong path. It leads only to death and destruction.

snowbird
08-10-2012, 11:13
Fish!!!

I don't have much more time to waste on you, but one final word of advice: don't forget the wienies and marshmallows for when you get to the Lake of Fire. (Okay, bring fish then, if you insist):)

Blast
08-10-2012, 11:32
Its amazing how many people have been murdered because of conflicting religious beliefs. The world would be a safer place if everyone were atheists.

"god made me do it" or "god told me to do it". Do a google search on that.
:rofl::rofl:

The world would be a safer place if everyone were atheists.

Tell that to the millions who were murdered in the just the 20th century alone by secular human wars and crminal activity.
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands who were murdered by the first practical use of atomic energy.

Some of you atheists have about as much depth of mind as a mud puddle.
It has always been the human factor that corrupts everything from religion to science.
Don't blame religion, don't blame science. It is what humans do with them.

Incidently, it is human secular activity that is destroying the environment. Not to mention the rising crime rate and violence.

Wow!:upeyes:

muscogee
08-10-2012, 12:18
The Bible says, "Thou shalt do no murder", so any unrepentant serial killer, by definition, is obviously not a genuine Christian. The “no true Scotsman fallacy” redeux.

Furthermore, FYI, Stalin was a communist atheist who murdered millions of Christians. Stalin was born a Christian. I could invoke the No true Scotsman fallacy and say no true atheists would murder millions of people, but would be illogical.

Bruce Lee was probably a Taoist, martial artist who never murdered anybody. Your willingness to flaunt your ignorance never ceases to amaze me. I'm embarrassed for you because you don't know enough to be embarrassed for yourself.

And your Hitler was almost certainly a homosexual coprophile who was another atheist mass murderer of Christians. One more time, your Hitler was a Christian.

Whether you believe it or not, this is indeed the wrong path. It leads only to death and destruction.

Whether you believe it or not, you're a Christian bigot and you are on the wrong path.

Vic Hays
08-10-2012, 12:36
Vic,

Do you really believe this stuff that you post from youtube?

Do you believe that what Jesus said is true about the love of money being the root of all evil?

Is there a world bank? If the central banks were supposed to stabilize the monetary system why did the world not have this crisis before they got into power?

Did the Pope call for a financial New World Order with teeth?

Does the Federal Reserve work without oversight from the US government? Does printing US currency and distributing and buying whatever the bank wants with US currency amount to legal counterfeiting?

Does the European central bank do the same as the Federal Reserve?

Is the whole world in a financial crisis?

Do you suppose all of this is happening without planning?

Do you believe that satan exists and is working upon this earth against God to enslave mankind?

Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

soflasmg
08-10-2012, 13:16
When God and or Satan appear in front me and say "Here I am." Then I will believe

That is a fact. It will be to late at that time unfortunately.

Please turn back to Jesus.

Roering
08-10-2012, 13:41
Do you believe that what Jesus said is true about the love of money being the root of all evil?

Is there a world bank? If the central banks were supposed to stabilize the monetary system why did the world not have this crisis before they got into power?

Did the Pope call for a financial New World Order with teeth?

Does the Federal Reserve work without oversight from the US government? Does printing US currency and distributing and buying whatever the bank wants with US currency amount to legal counterfeiting?

Does the European central bank do the same as the Federal Reserve?

Is the whole world in a financial crisis?

Do you suppose all of this is happening without planning?

Do you believe that satan exists and is working upon this earth against God to enslave mankind?

Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

So is that a "yes", or a "no" to my question?

Smacktard
08-10-2012, 15:00
Some of you atheists have about as much depth of mind as a mud puddle.




Thanks Blast! That's nicest thing you've ever said about me and my fellow Atheists.


.....

Vic Hays
08-10-2012, 15:30
So is that a "yes", or a "no" to my question?

Yes, I believe what is written in the Bible.

Do you believe your sect has the right and authority to rule the world in matters of faith and morals?

Roering
08-10-2012, 15:41
Yes, I believe what is written in the Bible.

Do you believe your sect has the right and authority to rule the world in matters of faith and morals?

That wasn't my question Vic. I had asked if you believe what you posted from youtube.

You have yet to give an answer.

You've done a lot of dancing, but you've yet to stand up.

muscogee
08-10-2012, 15:48
That is a fact. It will be to late at that time unfortunately.

Please turn back to Jesus.

Why would a loving God put people in that position? Why not show himself now?

Vic Hays
08-10-2012, 15:54
That wasn't my question Vic. I had asked if you believe what you posted from youtube.

You have yet to give an answer.

You've done a lot of dancing, but you've yet to stand up.

I don't believe everything on youtube just what agrees witht he Bible'

How about your little dance around the Catholic right and authority to rule the world in faith and morals?

Roering
08-10-2012, 16:06
I don't believe everything on youtube just what agrees witht he Bible'

How about your little dance around the Catholic right and authority to rule the world in faith and morals?

OK, so you only agree with some of what you post from youtube.

I wasn't dancing Vic, just waiting my turn.

I believe the Church has the authority to teach the world on matters of faith and morals.

The world however cannot be ruled by the teaching of faith and morals. Ruling the world is left up to worldly governments.

Vic Hays
08-10-2012, 16:35
OK, so you only agree with some of what you post from youtube.

I wasn't dancing Vic, just waiting my turn.

I believe the Church has the authority to teach the world on matters of faith and morals.

The world however cannot be ruled by the teaching of faith and morals. Ruling the world is left up to worldly governments.

According to Schabesbert the keys to the kingdom mean authority to rule. I think you are downplaying your belief.

Historically the Pope has considered himself to be above the kings of the earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walk_to_Canossa
"When Henry reached Canossa, the Pope ordered that he be refused entry. According to the first-hand accounts of the scene (letters written by both Gregory and Henry in the following years), Henry waited by the gate for three full days. During this time, he allegedly wore only his penitent hair shirt and fasted. Although no contemporary sources report this, it has since been speculated that Henry spent much of his time during these three days in the village at the foot of the hill.
On 28 January the gates were opened for Henry and he was allowed to enter the fortress. Contemporary accounts report that he knelt before Pope Gregory and begged his forgiveness. Gregory absolved Henry and invited him back into the Church. That evening, Gregory, Henry, and Matilda shared communion in the Cathedral of Saint Nicholas inside the fortress, signaling the official end of Henry's excommunication."

Roering
08-10-2012, 16:46
According to Schabesbert the keys to the kingdom mean authority to rule. I think you are downplaying your belief.

Historically the Pope has considered himself to be above the kings of the earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walk_to_Canossa
"When Henry reached Canossa, the Pope ordered that he be refused entry. According to the first-hand accounts of the scene (letters written by both Gregory and Henry in the following years), Henry waited by the gate for three full days. During this time, he allegedly wore only his penitent hair shirt and fasted. Although no contemporary sources report this, it has since been speculated that Henry spent much of his time during these three days in the village at the foot of the hill.
On 28 January the gates were opened for Henry and he was allowed to enter the fortress. Contemporary accounts report that he knelt before Pope Gregory and begged his forgiveness. Gregory absolved Henry and invited him back into the Church. That evening, Gregory, Henry, and Matilda shared communion in the Cathedral of Saint Nicholas inside the fortress, signaling the official end of Henry's excommunication."

Not everyone chooses to follow Christ Vic. For instance if you are an atheist, what relevance does the Church have to you?

Vic Hays
08-10-2012, 17:05
Not everyone chooses to follow Christ Vic. For instance if you are an atheist, what relevance does the Church have to you?

Still avoiding the question? The pope is not talking about Jesus when he is talking about being the spiritual head of the New World Order with teeth.

Roering
08-10-2012, 17:13
Still avoiding the question? The pope is not talking about Jesus when he is talking about being the spiritual head of the New World Order with teeth.

I'm sorry Vic. I must have missed something. When did Pope Benedict say that he is supposed to be the "spiritual head of the New World Order with teeth"

You see, you're asking me if I agree with something that I suspect never happened.

Can you show me this in the Church Doctrine that this is what the Pope is supposed to be?

Link it to me Vic.

Roering
08-10-2012, 17:21
Still avoiding the question? The pope is not talking about Jesus when he is talking about being the spiritual head of the New World Order with teeth.

Vic,

Are you referring to the encyclical that this report is on?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aUK_q1tvHrEc

If so, you're way off dude. I suggest reading the encyclical itself. From a real source...as in the Vatican's site.

The Encyclical is Titled "Charity in Truth"

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html

Vic Hays
08-10-2012, 18:27
Vic,

Are you referring to the encyclical that this report is on?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aUK_q1tvHrEc

If so, you're way off dude. I suggest reading the encyclical itself. From a real source...as in the Vatican's site.

The Encyclical is Titled "Charity in Truth"

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html

Jesus never taught to take from the rich to give to the poor.
Redistribution of wealth is not the definition of charity if it means taking from the rich to give to the poor. I believe that everyone needs opportunity not just someone to give them a handout.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html
"The processes of globalization, suitably understood and directed, open up the unprecedented possibility of large-scale redistribution of wealth on a world-wide scale; if badly directed, however, they can lead to an increase in poverty and inequality, and could even trigger a global crisis. It is necessary to correct the malfunctions, some of them serious, that cause new divisions between peoples and within peoples, and also to ensure that the redistribution of wealth does not come about through the redistribution or increase of poverty: a real danger if the present situation were to be badly managed."

Kingarthurhk
08-11-2012, 02:30
Jesus never taught to take from the rich to give to the poor.
Redistribution of wealth is not the definition of charity if it means taking from the rich to give to the poor. I believe that everyone needs opportunity not just someone to give them a handout.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html
"The processes of globalization, suitably understood and directed, open up the unprecedented possibility of large-scale redistribution of wealth on a world-wide scale; if badly directed, however, they can lead to an increase in poverty and inequality, and could even trigger a global crisis. It is necessary to correct the malfunctions, some of them serious, that cause new divisions between peoples and within peoples, and also to ensure that the redistribution of wealth does not come about through the redistribution or increase of poverty: a real danger if the present situation were to be badly managed."

Tha is rather ironic given the huge gilded cathredrals, and rich/priceless artificats of paintings and gold and silver. Surely, if this was an internal policy, these things, along with land holdings would be divested and given to the poor. Clearly, this edict is directed at world governments.

ksg0245
08-11-2012, 08:13
That is a fact. It will be to late at that time unfortunately.

Please turn back to Jesus.

Why would any loving deity punish anyone with ETERNAL punishment for making one wrong decision based on evidence insufficient for them to reach a conclusion?

Kingarthurhk
08-11-2012, 08:22
Why would any loving deity punish anyone with ETERNAL punishment for making one wrong decision based on evidence insufficient for them to reach a conclusion?

The effects are etenral; again, the concept of eternal torture with hell fire is a pagan concept propigated by the Medieval Chruch to illicit fear and obesciance from the general population. God is not cruel, in that he will not burn a person forever in torment. Those that choose to live in rebellion and not seek Him will be destroyed, so that sin and its destructive power will not rise again to create the blight that we see around us in the world as it is today.

There is plenty of evidence for the existance of God all around you; moreover, He hasn't given up on trying to reach you.

Schabesbert
08-11-2012, 12:47
Tha is rather ironic given the huge gilded cathredrals, and rich/priceless artificats of paintings and gold and silver. Surely, if this was an internal policy, these things, along with land holdings would be divested and given to the poor. Clearly, this edict is directed at world governments.
Judas? Is that you?

I don't believe in reincarnation, but somehow his spirit seems to be alive in well, and posting as Kingarthurhk!

Kingarthurhk
08-11-2012, 13:34
Judas? Is that you?

I don't believe in reincarnation, but somehow his spirit seems to be alive in well, and posting as Kingarthurhk!

So, what you are saying is you have nothing to offer for an intellectual point based on the subject or scripture. I want nothing from your faith. Even if I were destitute. But, this vow of poverty does not seem to be a reality with Catholicsm. I see a hierarchal system of extreme wealth while making the comment that the poor should be cared for.

Please tell me how this happening?

I don't recall the vast wealth of Jesus or the disciples.

ksg0245
08-11-2012, 14:36
The effects are etenral; again, the concept of eternal torture with hell fire is a pagan concept propigated by the Medieval Chruch to illicit fear and obesciance from the general population. God is not cruel, in that he will not burn a person forever in torment. Those that choose to live in rebellion and not seek Him will be destroyed, so that sin and its destructive power will not rise again to create the blight that we see around us in the world as it is today.

There is plenty of evidence for the existance of God all around you; moreover, He hasn't given up on trying to reach you.

But he will give up after I'm dead and it's too late?

You didn't answer the question I asked; I didn't mention eternal torture, I asked about eternal punishment (that's what exile from your deity is, correct?), and I specifically asked about "making one wrong decision based on evidence insufficient for them to reach a conclusion." Asking for evidence isn't "living in rebellion and not seeking;" it's "asking for sufficient evidence and not getting it."

The threat is meant to sway certain types of people; "you better believe in the correct deity or else you'll be punished FOREVER." And the threat claims that those who need actual evidence rather than threats won't get it until it's too late.

Kingarthurhk
08-11-2012, 15:22
But he will give up after I'm dead and it's too late?

You didn't answer the question I asked; I didn't mention eternal torture, I asked about eternal punishment (that's what exile from your deity is, correct?), and I specifically asked about "making one wrong decision based on evidence insufficient for them to reach a conclusion." Asking for evidence isn't "living in rebellion and not seeking;" it's "asking for sufficient evidence and not getting it."

The threat is meant to sway certain types of people; "you better believe in the correct deity or else you'll be punished FOREVER." And the threat claims that those who need actual evidence rather than threats won't get it until it's too late.

You are assumming that you live eternally one way or the other. Scripture doesn't support that. You are not living endlessly on in torment or being sperated and living on forever in darkness. Those that are destroyed in what is hell, which does not even yet exist are cast int the lake of fire and utterly burned up. They cease to be. In fact that place was never intended for humans, it was intended for Satan and his fallen angels (demons); but that is his goal to creat doubt, deception, anything he can to drag as many humans with him; because, he knows that will cause Jesus pain.

When you die, your future one way or the other is decided. To either be resurrected to eternal life, or to be resurrected for the "second" or permanent death.

If you are genuinely seeking, and genuinely praying to God for guidence, He won't turn you away. God isn't like that. If you are genuinely seeking Him, you will find Him.

James 4:7-10 gives a promise:

"<sup> </sup>Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30345L))'></sup> and he will flee from you. <sup class="versenum">8</sup>Come near to God and he will come near to you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346M))'></sup> Wash your hands, <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346N))'></sup> you sinners, and purify your hearts, <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346O))'></sup> you double-minded. <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346P))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30347Q))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up."

If you are trully seeking Him, you will find Him. If you make a conscious decision to come near God, He will come near to you. God doesn't turn people away who wrestle with doubt. He loves you, as if you were the only person on this world, and He won't give up on you, until you give up on Him.

soflasmg
08-11-2012, 15:26
Why would a loving God put people in that position? Why not show himself now?

He shows himself in creation and in his word, the Holy Bible.

ksg0245
08-11-2012, 17:01
You are assumming that you live eternally one way or the other. Scripture doesn't support that. You are not living endlessly on in torment or being sperated and living on forever in darkness. Those that are destroyed in what is hell, which does not even yet exist are cast int the lake of fire and utterly burned up. They cease to be. In fact that place was never intended for humans, it was intended for Satan and his fallen angels (demons); but that is his goal to creat doubt, deception, anything he can to drag as many humans with him; because, he knows that will cause Jesus pain.

When you die, your future one way or the other is decided. To either be resurrected to eternal life, or to be resurrected for the "second" or permanent death.

If you are genuinely seeking, and genuinely praying to God for guidence, He won't turn you away. God isn't like that. If you are genuinely seeking Him, you will find Him.

James 4:7-10 gives a promise:

"<sup> </sup>Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30345L))'></sup> and he will flee from you. <sup class="versenum">8</sup>Come near to God and he will come near to you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346M))'></sup> Wash your hands, <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346N))'></sup> you sinners, and purify your hearts, <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346O))'></sup> you double-minded. <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30346P))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30347Q))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up."

If you are trully seeking Him, you will find Him. If you make a conscious decision to come near God, He will come near to you. God doesn't turn people away who wrestle with doubt. He loves you, as if you were the only person on this world, and He won't give up on you, until you give up on Him.

The only assumption I made was that you might answer the question. I was mistaken. Why keep looking for something that doesn't appear to exist, for which there is no evidence?

Kingarthurhk
08-11-2012, 17:48
The only assumption I made was that you might answer the question. I was mistaken. Why keep looking for something that doesn't appear to exist, for which there is no evidence?

I thought I did answer your question. Let me offer you something else that might give you another perspective:

http://www.seventh-day.org/steps1.htm

This is a small book to read, and I put forward specifically Chapter 1 to help you that deals with nature and God. If you find that interesting or helpful, the rest talk about our relationship with God in a step by step easy to follow format. Chapter 12 deals with the concept of doubt as well.

If you don't care for reading:

http://steps-to-christ.org/

This is an audio version.

Vic Hays
08-11-2012, 20:05
Why would a loving God put people in that position? Why not show himself now?


Love is only one of several principles of God.

The principles are simple: Love, Truth, Justice,Faith, and Individual Liberty.

Jesus died for the sins of everyone. This gives man the right to chose life or death, salvation or destruction, Jesus or satan.

If God would show Himself in an undeniable way He would take away the individual liberty that He gave people to reject His existence.

I read the end of the Book and I know who is going to win. I choose Jesus.

muscogee
08-11-2012, 21:04
If God would show Himself in an undeniable way He would take away the individual liberty that He gave people to reject His existence.

That's a real stretch.Why wouldn't God want us to have undeniable proof of his existence? If he doesn't want people to go to Hell, then why play mind games?

Lone Wolf8634
08-11-2012, 22:39
I wonder if it would surprise anyone if they knew I preferred the idea that I would cease to exist in any way after I die?

Which is what I already think we're all gonna do anyway.

Endless existence would become endless torment, no matter what format it came in.

Roering
08-11-2012, 23:26
[QUOTE=Vic Hays;19293864]Jesus never taught to take from the rich to give to the poor.
Redistribution of wealth is not the definition of charity if it means taking from the rich to give to the poor. I believe that everyone needs opportunity not just someone to give them a handout.


So we should for example let the people of Haiti fend for themselves and stop sending food and medical care?

Perhaps you could contact your local Catholic Diocese and explain that to them. :rofl:

Vic Hays
08-11-2012, 23:28
That's a real stretch.Why wouldn't God want us to have undeniable proof of his existence? If he doesn't want people to go to Hell, then why play mind games?

Only those who love the Truth will be there. There is enough evidence for those who love Truth.

Some of the truth is that we are all sinners and do not deserve life.

Another part is that Jesus is not a sinner and He deserves life. He has offered us His life and character in place of our deformed characters. Jesus is the one I want to be like.

II Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the LORD.

Roering
08-11-2012, 23:29
Tha is rather ironic given the huge gilded cathredrals, and rich/priceless artificats of paintings and gold and silver. Surely, if this was an internal policy, these things, along with land holdings would be divested and given to the poor. Clearly, this edict is directed at world governments.

And no organization on the face of the Earth has done more in the past 2,000 years to clothe the naked, heal the sick, house the homeless, and feed the hungry.

Remember that.

Limedust
08-12-2012, 00:37
Love is only one of several principles of God.

The principles are simple: Love, Truth, Justice,Faith, and Individual Liberty.

Jesus died for the sins of everyone. This gives man the right to chose life or death, salvation or destruction, Jesus or satan.

If God would show Himself in an undeniable way He would take away the individual liberty that He gave people to reject His existence.

I read the end of the Book and I know who is going to win. I choose Jesus.

There are other books . . .

Vic Hays
08-12-2012, 00:42
There are other books . . .


There is none as good or as popular as the Bible.

History has been laid out for us in advance. Christ the Savior has already come and given us assurance and died for us. There is no need to doubt.

Vic Hays
08-12-2012, 00:52
And no organization on the face of the Earth has done more in the past 2,000 years to clothe the naked, heal the sick, house the homeless, and feed the hungry.

Remember that.

Not the organization but sincere individuals moved by the Holy Spirit within them.

We can do nothing good without Him.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it to the end.
7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Phillipians 2:13 For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Limedust
08-12-2012, 01:12
There is none as good or as popular as the Bible.

History has been laid out for us in advance. Christ the Savior has already come and given us assurance and died for us. There is no need to doubt.

I'll grant you the Bible is pretty good in literary terms and sells some copies. However, there are plenty of works that are better.

There is reason to doubt what you've said . . . the most salient of reasons is that any message communicated by Jesus (if he even existed) is contained in a politically motivated anthology put together by men of dubious character; furthermore, that anthology was modified, edited, translated, and corrupted over the centuries because of bias, incompetence, and misinterpretation.

Might as well takes the edicts put forth in The Godfather as faultless and indicating no reason for doubt . . . and at least that book was more entertaining.

muscogee
08-12-2012, 02:19
Only those who love the Truth will be there. There is enough evidence for those who love Truth.
So you have the market on truth cornered? So do the suicide bombers.

Is it possible that what you call truth is what you want to believe rather than the truth. It was through seeking the truth that I became convinced that the Christian god couldn't possibly exist. It wasn't a belief I choose. It was a truth I couldn't avoid once I became mature enough to understand what the Bible said. I studied it for several years trying to convince myself that what I was seeing was not true. I finally reached a point that I could no longer deny the obvious.

All religious people believe their version of truth is the only correct version and everyone else is mistaken. I have seen nothing to convince me that they're not all mistaken. They're all based on absurdities glossed over by incredibly flawed logic.

Kingarthurhk
08-12-2012, 05:52
And no organization on the face of the Earth has done more in the past 2,000 years to clothe the naked, heal the sick, house the homeless, and feed the hungry.

Remember that.

I know of unclothing the dressed, making sick the well, and make fatherless and hungry the families of heretics.

Kingarthurhk
08-12-2012, 06:29
So you have the market on truth cornered? So do the suicide bombers.

Vic is far from a suicide bomber. Also, he is not saying that he has the market on truth cornerned. Only God can claim such a thing.


Is it possible that what you call truth is what you want to believe rather than the truth. It was through seeking the truth that I became convinced that the Christian god couldn't possibly exist.

To be fair, could you consider tribulation and doubt to have played a role?


It wasn't a belief I choose. It was a truth I couldn't avoid once I became mature enough to understand what the Bible said. I studied it for several years trying to convince myself that what I was seeing was not true. I finally reached a point that I could no longer deny the obvious.

What was the thing you found?


All religious people believe their version of truth is the only correct version and everyone else is mistaken. I have seen nothing to convince me that they're not all mistaken. They're all based on absurdities glossed over by incredibly flawed logic.

I would say no one has it completely correct. Just some more than others. We lived a flawed existance on a flawed planet, reaching out to perfection, as imperfection, and in our imperfect way.

The world is purposely confused and thrown into darkness by the king or god of this world if you prefer. Once Adam relinquished his authority, a new harsh master became ruler, and he has no intention of making anything easy in pursuit of God.

Job 1:6-11, "One day the angels<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-12876a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-12876a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12876R))'></sup> came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan<sup class="footnote" value=''>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-12876b)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12876S))'></sup> also came with them. <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12876T))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12877U))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12878V))'></sup> There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12878W))'></sup> and shuns evil.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12878X))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>“Does Job fear God for nothing?” <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12879Y))'></sup>Satan replied. <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>“Have you not put a hedge <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12880Z))'></sup> around him and his household and everything he has? <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12880AA))'></sup> You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12880AB))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12881AC))'></sup> and he will surely curse you to your face.”

My annotation shows that for angels that the Hebrew word is "Sons of God" which is quite telling. Because, the trinity was already in heaven, so it was not Jesus, and it was plural, "Sons of God" and it was not in the general snese that we are all "sons of God, because Job was not invited to this meeting and we see that he was a servant and loyal son of God as we are all God's children.

This implies that the kings or rulers the other parts of creation were having a meeting with God, as God loves to commune with His creation.

God asked Satan a question He already knew. Why are you here. Satan answered that he was going anywhere he wanted on earth as its ruler.

God answered, essentially, you think you own all of it? Job still serves me.

We also see this with the temptation of Jesus while he was on earth:

[B]Matthew 4:1-11, "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23211a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23211a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23211B))'></sup> by the devil. <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23211C))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>After fasting forty days and forty nights, <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23212D))'></sup> he was hungry. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>The tempter <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23213E))'></sup> came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23213F))'></sup> tell these stones to become bread.”
<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’<sup class="footnote" value=''>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23214b)]</sup>” <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23214G))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>Then the devil took him to the holy city <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23215H))'></sup> and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>“[B]If you are the Son of God,” <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23216I))'></sup>he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23216c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23216c)]</sup>” <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23216J))'></sup>


<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23217d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23217d)]</sup>” <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23217K))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23220L))'></sup> For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23220e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23220e)]</sup>” <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23220M))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Then the devil left him, <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23221N))'></sup> and angels came and attended him."

So, we see again Satan acting as the ruler of this world. Clearly, he didn't have Job's best interest in mind, or anyone else's.

Satan is also referred to as the "god of this world" little "g".

Paul references this in 2 Corinthians 4:4-6, "The god <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28864I))'></sup> of this age <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28864J))'></sup> has blinded <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28864K))'></sup> the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28864L))'></sup> who is the image of God. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28864M))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>For what we preach is not ourselves, <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28865N))'></sup> but Jesus Christ as Lord, <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28865O))'></sup> and ourselves as your servants <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28865P))'></sup> for Jesus’ sake. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28866a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28866a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28866Q))'></sup> made his light shine in our hearts <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28866R))'></sup> to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ."

Jesus refers to Satan as the prince of the world in John 12:31-33, "<sup> </sup>Now is the time for judgment on this world; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26612AK))'></sup> now the prince of this world <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26612AL))'></sup> will be driven out. <sup class="versenum">32 </sup>And I, when I am lifted up<sup class="footnote" value='[g (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26613g)]'>[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+12&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26613g)]</sup> from the earth, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26613AM))'></sup> will draw all people to myself.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26613AN))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">33 </sup>He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die."

Peter warns us in 1 Peter 5:8-9, "Be alert and of sober mind. <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30474R))'></sup> Your enemy the devil prowls around <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30474S))'></sup> like a roaring lion <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30474T))'></sup> looking for someone to devour. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Resist him, <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30475U))'></sup> standing firm in the faith, <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30475V))'></sup> because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings."

Revelation 12:12 also makes clear the devil's intent, "Therefore rejoice, you heavens <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30904AE))'></sup>
and you who dwell in them!
But woe <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30904AF))'></sup> to the earth and the sea, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30904AG))'></sup>
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short."

So, don't give in, keep searching. There is both a force for Good and a force for Evil on this planet. Evil constantly hounds us as the prince of this world that we should lose sight of Jesus our salvation.

muscogee
08-12-2012, 09:47
To be fair, could you consider tribulation and doubt to have played a role? Christianity is synonymous with tribulation. To be a Christian is to be constantly looking over your shoulder for the Devil. To be a Christian is to constantly feel guilty for failing to meet endless unrealistic standards.

What was the thing you found? That the Bible is a fantasy. It especially appeals to people with an overactive imagination. I found that people constantly tweak that fantasy to make it fit what they want to believe. That makes Christianity meaningless on at least two levels in that is a fantasy that people are constantly tweaking. Does one believe the original fantasy or the tweaked fantasy. If one believes the tweaked fantasy, which tweaked fantasy does one believe and why? Contrary to what Vic wrote, people seeking the truth realize that there is more fantasy than fact in the Bible and even more fantasy in the tweaked versions.

The world is purposely confused and thrown into darkness by the king or god of this world if you prefer. Once Adam relinquished his authority, a new harsh master became ruler, and he has no intention of making anything easy in pursuit of God. That's a tweaked fantasy with nothing to back it up but one's imagination.

B]Job 1:6-11[/B], "One day the angels<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-12876a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-12876a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12876R))'></sup> came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan<sup class="footnote" value=''>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-12876b)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12876S))'></sup> also came with them. <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12876T))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12877U))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12878V))'></sup> There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12878W))'></sup> and shuns evil.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12878X))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>“Does Job fear God for nothing?” <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12879Y))'></sup>Satan replied. <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>“Have you not put a hedge <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12880Z))'></sup> around him and his household and everything he has? <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12880AA))'></sup> You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12880AB))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-12881AC))'></sup> and he will surely curse you to your face.” That's an obvious fantasy.

My annotation shows that for angels that the Hebrew word is "Sons of God" which is quite telling. Because, the trinity was already in heaven, so it was not Jesus, and it was plural, "Sons of God" and it was not in the general snese that we are all "sons of God, because Job was not invited to this meeting and we see that he was a servant and loyal son of God as we are all God's children.

This implies that the kings or rulers the other parts of creation were having a meeting with God, as God loves to commune with His creation. More tweaking.


[B]Matthew 4:1-11, "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23211a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23211a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23211B))'></sup> by the devil. <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23211C))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>After fasting forty days and forty nights, <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23212D))'></sup> he was hungry. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>The tempter <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23213E))'></sup> came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23213F))'></sup> tell these stones to become bread.”
<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’<sup class="footnote" value=''>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23214b)]</sup>” <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23214G))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>Then the devil took him to the holy city <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23215H))'></sup> and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>“[B]If you are the Son of God,” <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23216I))'></sup>he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23216c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23216c)]</sup>” <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23216J))'></sup>


<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23217d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23217d)]</sup>” <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23217K))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23220L))'></sup> For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23220e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23220e)]</sup>” <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23220M))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Then the devil left him, <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23221N))'></sup> and angels came and attended him." More fantasy.

So, we see again Satan acting as the ruler of this world. Clearly, he didn't have Job's best interest in mind, or anyone else's.

Satan is also referred to as the "god of this world" little "g". So what? Irrelevant tweaking.

Paul references this in 2 Corinthians 4:4-6, "The god <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28864I))'></sup> of this age <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28864J))'></sup> has blinded <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28864K))'></sup> the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28864L))'></sup> who is the image of God. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28864M))'></sup> [SIZE=2]<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>For what we preach is not ourselves, <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28865N))'></sup> but Jesus Christ as Lord, <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28865O))'></sup> and ourselves as your servants <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28865P))'></sup> for Jesus’ sake. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28866a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28866a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28866Q))'></sup> made his light shine in our hearts <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28866R))'></sup> to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ."

Jesus refers to Satan as the prince of the world in John 12:31-33, "<sup> </sup>Now is the time for judgment on this world; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26612AK))'></sup> now the prince of this world <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26612AL))'></sup> will be driven out. <sup class="versenum">32 </sup>And I, when I am lifted up<sup class="footnote" value='[g (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26613g)]'>[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+12&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26613g)]</sup> from the earth, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26613AM))'></sup> will draw all people to myself.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26613AN))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">33 </sup>He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die."

Peter warns us in 1 Peter 5:8-9, "Be alert and of sober mind. <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30474R))'></sup> Your enemy the devil prowls around <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30474S))'></sup> like a roaring lion <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30474T))'></sup> looking for someone to devour. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Resist him, <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30475U))'></sup> standing firm in the faith, <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30475V))'></sup> because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings." More tweaked fantasy.

Revelation 12:12 also makes clear the devil's intent, "Therefore rejoice, you heavens <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30904AE))'></sup>
and you who dwell in them!
But woe <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30904AF))'></sup> to the earth and the sea, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30904AG))'></sup>
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short." Revelations doesn't make anything clear. It's gibberish that means whatever the reader wants it to mean. Someone seeking the truth will realize this. Someone wanting to tweak the Bible to make it fit his belief will see endless opportunities to tweak.

So, don't give in, keep searching. There is both a force for Good and a force for Evil on this planet. Evil constantly hounds us as the prince of this world that we should lose sight of Jesus our salvation.

I never give up seeking the truth. However, everything I find leads me in the other direction. I know you're going to say it's Satan leading me. How do you know it's not Satan leading you? How do you know the whole thing's not a fantasy? You need to believe it's not a fantasy to cope, but coping that way requires constant tweaking so it's a work around and not a permanent long term solution.

Vic Hays
08-12-2012, 10:03
So you have the market on truth cornered? So do the suicide bombers.

Is it possible that what you call truth is what you want to believe rather than the truth.

All religious people believe their version of truth is the only correct version and everyone else is mistaken. I have seen nothing to convince me that they're not all mistaken. They're all based on absurdities glossed over by incredibly flawed logic.

I still make mistakes so I could be mistaken about a lot of things.

I like the direction I am going so I do not wish to go any of the other directions that have been offered me. I like the changes that God has made in my life and character so far.

Are you happy with your life? If that were so I doubt you would be such a religious frequenter of religious forums.

Please point out the incredible flaws in my logic.

muscogee
08-12-2012, 10:54
I still make mistakes so I could be mistaken about a lot of things.

I like the direction I am going so I do not wish to go any of the other directions that have been offered me. I like the changes that God has made in my life and character so far.

Are you happy with your life? If that were so I doubt you would be such a religious frequenter of religious forums.

Please point out the incredible flaws in my logic.

This is a standard Christian retort. You get nailed on your logic so you change the subject to an imagined flaw in the person who asked the question. What does my happiness have to do with the question?

Does happiness imply truth or mental stability? Mentally ill people who live in a fantasy land are often quite happy. Many seriously ill people start seeing long dead friends and family members before they die. This makes them extremely happy. Is that something a rational person would choose?

My happiness has been improving ever since I moved out of the Christian fantasy land into which I was born. I don't have to try to make sense out of nonsense. I don't have to constantly do what gullible people and control freaks with overactive imaginations tell me I have to do because God will get angry and cast me into an imaginary lake of fire if I don't.

As for frequenting this forum, I don't do it any more than you do and I even took a breather for a few years. Does that mean you're unhappy? Does it mean you're more unhappy than I am? Does it mean you can't distinguish between logic and you're imagination? Or does it mean nothing at all?

The main flaw in your logic is that you can't or won't distinguish between your imagination and the cold blooded truth. As Jack Nicholson said, “You can't handle the truth”. It terrifies you.

Vic Hays
08-12-2012, 11:04
The main flaw in your logic is that you can't or won't distinguish between your imagination and the cold blooded truth. As Jack Nicholson said, “You can't handle the truth”. It terrifies you.

Well certainly I can handle the cold blooded truth. I am happy and you are not. That is the cold blooded Truth. The Bible is not my imagination nor the fulfilled prophecies it contains nor the needs of my heart that it satisfies.

muscogee
08-12-2012, 13:32
Well certainly I can handle the cold blooded truth. I am happy and you are not. That is the cold blooded Truth. The Bible is not my imagination nor the fulfilled prophecies it contains nor the needs of my heart that it satisfies.

One more time, you change the subject and interject irrelevant personal attacks. Why do you say I'm not happy? Because I disagree with you? That's the height of pride.

On what do you base your statement that I'm unhappy other then your desire to feel that way so you can feign some type of superiority? How are you any different from the Pharisees that thanked God that they were so much better off than others?

Vic Hays
08-12-2012, 15:13
On what do you base your statement that I'm unhappy other then your desire to feel that way so you can feign some type of superiority? How are you any different from the Pharisees that thanked God that they were so much better off than others?

I am just being logical with the information you have admitted about yourself. You admitted that you are unhappy with your search for God and continue to spew negative criticism and doubt towards those who express faith in God.

Logically speaking this is not the operating procedure of a happy person. This is not an attack just an honest appraisal of the facts.

muscogee
08-12-2012, 18:19
Are you happy with your life? If that were so I doubt you would be such a religious frequenter of religious forums.

I am just being logical with the information you have admitted about yourself. You admitted that you are unhappy with your search for God and continue to spew negative criticism and doubt towards those who express faith in God.

Logically speaking this is not the operating procedure of a happy person. This is not an attack just an honest appraisal of the facts.

You say one thing then when you're asked to justify it you claim to have said something else. Some might consider this disingenuous, at best, or duplicitous at worst, but just keep throwing the name of God around while you do this. That makes everything alright. As for being logical, no.

I deny the former accusation but freely admit to the latter. What's your point?

Vic Hays
08-12-2012, 18:56
You say one thing then when you're asked to justify it you claim to have said something else. Some might consider this disingenuous, at best, or duplicitous at worst, but just keep throwing the name of God around while you do this. That makes everything alright. As for being logical, no.

I deny the former accusation but freely admit to the latter. What's your point?

Show me where I "claim to have said something else". Some might consider this a false accusation.

snowbird
08-12-2012, 20:19
You get nailed on your logic...

...says the guy who thinks "Fish!!!" is a logical answer:upeyes:

muscogee
08-12-2012, 21:43
Show me where I "claim to have said something else". Some might consider this a false accusation.

See #201.

muscogee
08-12-2012, 21:44
...says the guy who thinks "Fish!!!" is a logical answer:upeyes:

Meanwhile the Muslims....

Vic Hays
08-12-2012, 21:49
See #201.

Where in that post do I "claim to have said something else".

You are reading words that are not there. Is there an "I said" anywhere?

muscogee
08-13-2012, 07:03
Where in that post do I "claim to have said something else".

You are reading words that are not there. Is there an "I said" anywhere?

You see no difference with “*happy with your life “ and “unhappy with your search for God* “? BTW, I'm happy with both.

snowbird
08-13-2012, 09:20
Meanwhile the Muslims....

Oh, you want to talk about 'fish!!!' AND Muslims now? Why can't you make up your mind?

Well, Muslim pirates may disguise themselves as fishermen. One, Mohammed Saaili Shibin, was convicted in Virginia this year, of piracy, kidnapping, and hostage-taking. He may get life imprisonment, which will mean 3 square meals a day, free rent and clothing, good medical care, etc, while he gets to proselytize his evil cult amongst our criminal class behind bars (prison dahwa). Meanwhile, the 4 Americans aboard the yacht his gang attacked were shot dead.

I pray that both he and you make a right decision before your lives on this earth are over, and turn to Christ.

muscogee
08-13-2012, 09:50
Oh, you want to talk about 'fish!!!' AND Muslims now? Why can't you make up your mind?

Well, Muslim pirates may disguise themselves as fishermen. One, Mohammed Saaili Shibin, was convicted in Virginia this year, of piracy, kidnapping, and hostage-taking. He may get life imprisonment, which will mean 3 square meals a day, free rent and clothing, good medical care, etc, while he gets to proselytize his evil cult amongst our criminal class behind bars (prison dahwa). Meanwhile, the 4 Americans aboard the yacht his gang attacked were shot dead.

I pray that both he and you make a right decision before your lives on this earth are over, and turn to Christ.

Fish!!!

Schabesbert
08-13-2012, 12:34
So, what you are saying is you have nothing to offer for an intellectual point based on the subject or scripture.
I'm sorry, I overestimated you. I thought that you'd be familiar with scriptures. Guess I was wrong.

You were complaining about the Church's priceless art, etc., saying that it should be sold & the proceeds given to the poor.

My reference to Judas, whom you are so closely emulating, was a reference to Matthew 26:6-13 (and beyond, too).


I want nothing from your faith. Even if I were destitute.
You are and you don't even realize it.

But, this vow of poverty does not seem to be a reality with Catholicsm. I see a hierarchal system of extreme wealth while making the comment that the poor should be cared for.

Please tell me how this happening?

I don't recall the vast wealth of Jesus or the disciples.
Thanks again, Judas!

BTW, the Catholic Church provides more for the poor than any orgainzation which has ever existed, at any time, and in every place.

Kingarthurhk
08-13-2012, 17:23
I'm sorry, I overestimated you. I thought that you'd be familiar with scriptures. Guess I was wrong.

You were complaining about the Church's priceless art, etc., saying that it should be sold & the proceeds given to the poor.

My reference to Judas, whom you are so closely emulating, was a reference to Matthew 26:6-13 (and beyond, too).



You are and you don't even realize it.


Thanks again, Judas!

BTW, the Catholic Church provides more for the poor than any orgainzation which has ever existed, at any time, and in every place.

Funny, we're much smaller and much more active:

http://www.adra.org/site/PageServer

We don't have gilded cathredrals, or fancy vestments that cost hundreds or thousands, or huge ornate gold, priceless artifacts simply locked away for the amusement of church leadership.

But, what we do have we give.

Acts 3:1-11, "One day Peter and John <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26998A))'></sup> were going up to the temple <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26998B))'></sup> at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26998C))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>Now a man who was lame from birth <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26999D))'></sup> was being carried to the temple gate <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26999E))'></sup> called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26999F))'></sup> from those going into the temple courts. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, “Look at us!” <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them.
<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27003G))'></sup> walk.” <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man’s feet and ankles became strong. <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27005H))'></sup> and praising God. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>When all the people <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27006I))'></sup> saw him walking and praising God, <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>they recognized him as the same man who used to sit begging at the temple gate called Beautiful, <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-27007J))'></sup> and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him."

You claim you base your church on this man. Yet, your Peter is covered in gold and silver, and maintains priceless artifacts simply for his amusement.

The original Peter did not, but what he had, he gave.

What an interesting case in contrasts.

Schabesbert
08-22-2012, 08:33
Funny, we're much smaller and much more active:

http://www.adra.org/site/PageServer
That's great. I notice that you've had to dump your president. Why?

SILVER SPRING, Md.- The Adventist Development and Relief Agency (ADRA) International Board of Directors met June 24 and removed Dr. Rudi Maier as president and executive director of ADRA International with immediate effect, announcing the formation of a search committee to find a replacement.

We don't have gilded cathredrals, or fancy vestments that cost hundreds or thousands, or huge ornate gold, priceless artifacts simply locked away for the amusement of church leadership.

But, what we do have we give.
Great. Maybe your aspirations could lead you to be as effective as the Catholic Church at a minuscule rate.


You claim you base your church on this man.
You get this wrong, constantly.
We base our Church on Jesus. Jesus said that he'd build His Church on St. Peter. I don't know what you've got against Jesus' promises.

Yet, your Peter is covered in gold and silver, and maintains priceless artifacts simply for his amusement.
You're so absolutely wrong about this (no surprise).

The pope leads a rather austere life, living in a modest apartment. Until recently, he didn't even have air conditioning! That may be the case even today, but I think it's changed.

Do your leaders have air conditioning?

Now, as far as the works of art, etc.: You're still following the model of Judas. I hope you're proud of your mentor.

Kingarthurhk
08-22-2012, 16:58
That's great. I notice that you've had to dump your president. Why?
SILVER SPRING, Md.- The Adventist Development and Relief Agency (ADRA) International Board of Directors met June 24 and removed Dr. Rudi Maier as president and executive director of ADRA International with immediate effect, announcing the formation of a search committee to find a replacement.


Great. Maybe your aspirations could lead you to be as effective as the Catholic Church at a minuscule rate.



You get this wrong, constantly.
We base our Church on Jesus. Jesus said that he'd build His Church on St. Peter. I don't know what you've got against Jesus' promises.


You're so absolutely wrong about this (no surprise).

The pope leads a rather austere life, living in a modest apartment. Until recently, he didn't even have air conditioning! That may be the case even today, but I think it's changed.

Do your leaders have air conditioning?

Now, as far as the works of art, etc.: You're still following the model of Judas. I hope you're proud of your mentor.

Poo Chuckin' Monkey - Available on Android and Amazon - YouTube

Schabesbert
08-22-2012, 17:26
Poo Chuckin' Monkey - Available on Android and Amazon - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcFgvXOiqRg)
I wasn't aware that you starred in your very own youtube video!! Congratulations!!

Seriously, let me know when you graduate from the 3rd grade.

Kingarthurhk
08-22-2012, 17:48
I wasn't aware that you starred in your very own youtube video!! Congratulations!!

Seriously, let me know when you graduate from the 3rd grade.

Dermot Morgan as an incensed Irish Catholic - YouTube

Vic Hays
08-23-2012, 10:05
That's great. I notice that you've had to dump your president. Why?

[INDENT]SILVER SPRING, Md.- The Adventist Development and Relief Agency (ADRA) International Board of Directors met June 24 and removed Dr. Rudi Maier as president and executive director of ADRA International with immediate effect, announcing the formation of a search committee to find a replacement.


ADRA is a humanitarian organization. The President of ADRA is not the president of the denomination.

Since the president of ADRA was removed it could be assumed that something was not going right or he had a personal need to step down. This can and has happened even with the president of the denomination. We do not claim that everything we do is infallible.

At least we have accountability instead of just moving the good old guys around like your sect.

Schabesbert
08-23-2012, 11:14
ADRA is a humanitarian organization. The President of ADRA is not the president of the denomination.

Since the president of ADRA was removed it could be assumed that something was not going right or he had a personal need to step down. This can and has happened even with the president of the denomination. We do not claim that everything we do is infallible.
Do you purposefully distort the doctrine and meaning of infallibility, or are you actually unable to understand it?

Bren
08-23-2012, 13:56
http://www.afgen.com/christian_bigotry.html

As I have written several times, I have nothing against Christians or Christianity. My problem is with bigotry. Not all Christians are bigot.


If they really believe their religion, then it seems to me that "Christian bigotry" is the correct attitude for them to have.

Vic Hays
08-23-2012, 15:40
Do you purposefully distort the doctrine and meaning of infallibility, or are you actually unable to understand it?

Ok, that was a dig I shouldn't have made.

The point I was making is that we hold people in Church office to be accountable not hide their sins and move them somewhere else.

Roering
08-23-2012, 16:28
Ok, that was a dig I shouldn't have made.


Do you feel that there are "digs" that you should make?

Vic Hays
08-23-2012, 16:57
Do you feel that there are "digs" that you should make?

Christians should be tolerant especially to fellow Christians.

The Truth should be sufficient without disparaging others.

Bert is the poster child for disparagement.

High-Gear
08-23-2012, 16:58
Oh, you want to talk about 'fish!!!' AND Muslims now? Why can't you make up your mind?

Well, Muslim pirates may disguise themselves as fishermen. One, Mohammed Saaili Shibin, was convicted in Virginia this year, of piracy, kidnapping, and hostage-taking. He may get life imprisonment, which will mean 3 square meals a day, free rent and clothing, good medical care, etc, while he gets to proselytize his evil cult amongst our criminal class behind bars (prison dahwa). Meanwhile, the 4 Americans aboard the yacht his gang attacked were shot dead.

I pray that both he and you make a right decision before your lives on this earth are over, and turn to Christ.

Snowbird,

He wasn't a true Pirate. All real pirates actually bring candy to children. He has corrupted the name of pirates therefore we should not consider your claims of his crimes as being representative of religious faith or pirates in general.

Smacktard
08-23-2012, 19:25
Christians should be tolerant especially to fellow Christians.

Why?


....

Cavalry Doc
08-23-2012, 19:35
Why?


....

As long as one side is not actively trying to kill or harm the other, why not be tolerant.

Not too many people agree on everything. That's one of the cool things about being human. We are all alike, in that we are all unique.

Kingarthurhk
08-23-2012, 21:14
As long as one side is not actively trying to kill or harm the other, why not be tolerant.

Not too many people agree on everything. That's one of the cool things about being human. We are all alike, in that we are all unique.

Salient point.

Vic Hays
08-23-2012, 21:47
Why?


....


Cavalry Doc had a pretty good answer.

I would add that Jesus died for everyone if they choose to accept it. It is God's will that everyone be saved, however, it is possible to drive people away from the Truth and from God.

Jesus gave us an example:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I don't know mens thoughts and motives so it is better not to judge them. Those that judge motives will be judged by the same standard.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that you be not judged.
7:2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.

muscogee
08-24-2012, 07:09
If they really believe their religion, then it seems to me that "Christian bigotry" is the correct attitude for them to have.

That depends on which part of the Bible one chooses to believe. There's a lot in there about loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek. It's like the Oracle of Delphi. It means whatever the reader wants it to. This thread is a perfect example of selective belief and of Christian bigotry.

Schabesbert
08-24-2012, 07:18
Originally Posted by Vic Hays
Ok, that was a dig I shouldn't have made.

Do you feel that there are "digs" that you should make?
Apparently so:
Christians should be tolerant especially to fellow Christians.

The Truth should be sufficient without disparaging others.

Bert is the poster child for disparagement.

I find the irony quite amusing. Read the last 2 lines together, and realize that the last line IS meant to be a disparaging comment.

Oh, and the OTHER SDA here keeps posting about the most childish responses I've ever seen posted. But that doesn't seem to count. I guess the SDA needs to be exempt from Vic's rules regarding disparagement?

Kingarthurhk
08-24-2012, 17:49
Apparently so:


I find the irony quite amusing. Read the last 2 lines together, and realize that the last line IS meant to be a disparaging comment.

Oh, and the OTHER SDA here keeps posting about the most childish responses I've ever seen posted. But that doesn't seem to count. I guess the SDA needs to be exempt from Vic's rules regarding disparagement?

Yes, I guess I shouldn't have let my annoyance with your constant ignorance, arrogance, and being a sarcastic, irritating, obnoxious belicose blow hard who thinks an intellectual debate is seeing how my times you can insult the person engaing you as some sort of meaningful dialogue.

I shouldn't have that bother me. I appologize for resorting to your tactics. It won't happen again.

Schabesbert
08-27-2012, 08:27
Yes, I guess I shouldn't have let my annoyance with your constant ignorance, arrogance, and being a sarcastic, irritating, obnoxious belicose blow hard who thinks an intellectual debate is seeing how my times you can insult the person engaing you as some sort of meaningful dialogue.

I shouldn't have that bother me. I appologize for resorting to your tactics. It won't happen again.
Gotta love the irony!

You're suffering from cognitive dissonance, my friend.
You know what I'm posting is right, yet it conflicts with your deeply held beliefs. I'm sorry, but the truth hurts sometimes.

I really don't mind your insulting me, even though it's nothing but gratuitous.

Jesus warned us:
Mt 10:25 ... If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household.

Mt 5:11 "Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Lu 6:22 "Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they exclude you and revile you, and cast out your name as evil, on account of the Son of man!

So, thanks for that!!