800-x and velocity [Archive] - Glock Talk

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AMSting
08-03-2012, 10:32
I have been reloading for awhile, but only recently for 10mm. After doing a lot of reading, I settled on 800-x as it seemed to have the most consistent praises for velocity. I was pretty happy as I started, but now am disappointed. My loads from a stock G20 using 180 grain Hornady HAP set at 1.255" OAL and using Federal non-magnum primers:

9.0 grains, 1215fps
9.3 grains 1243fps
9.7 grains 1273fps

I was really expecting the 9.7 grains to get me to 1325-1350fps.

All were at about 1500' elevation, 90 days. The chrony was about 10' from the bench, except for the 9.7 grain test where it was about 15' away. I don't think that would have more than 10-20fps affect, if that.

No evidence of overpressure, so I think I can still go up in powder, but I'm only getting 10fps per 0.1 grain now. I would have to load to 10.3 grains at this rate.

So, do I need to back down to 9.0 grains and try magnum primers? I know 800-x is slow, but I haven't seen anything consistent about needing magnum primers to get it's full potential.

I don't want this to be a discussion on which powder to use. I want to better understand 800-x and why I don't seem to be getting velocities others are reporting.

dm1906
08-03-2012, 11:32
I have been reloading for awhile, but only recently for 10mm. After doing a lot of reading, I settled on 800-x as it seemed to have the most consistent praises for velocity. I was pretty happy as I started, but now am disappointed. My loads from a stock G20 using 180 grain Hornady HAP set at 1.255" OAL and using Federal non-magnum primers:

9.0 grains, 1215fps
9.3 grains 1243fps
9.7 grains 1273fps

I was really expecting the 9.7 grains to get me to 1325-1350fps.

All were at about 1500' elevation, 90 days. The chrony was about 10' from the bench, except for the 9.7 grain test where it was about 15' away. I don't think that would have more than 10-20fps affect, if that.

No evidence of overpressure, so I think I can still go up in powder, but I'm only getting 10fps per 0.1 grain now. I would have to load to 10.3 grains at this rate.

So, do I need to back down to 9.0 grains and try magnum primers? I know 800-x is slow, but I haven't seen anything consistent about needing magnum primers to get it's full potential.

I don't want this to be a discussion on which powder to use. I want to better understand 800-x and why I don't seem to be getting velocities others are reporting.

Slow? Compared to what? 800X is a FAST powder, in the neighborhood of AA5 and WSF (for comparison purposes only). I do not recommend trying to get more with magnum primers and FAST powders. There is only so much energy available with a given powder, and using magnum primers to get them to burn QUICKER (which isn't faster), may lead to very undesirable results. Magnum primers are designed/intended to be used with SLOW magnum powders, to ensure a consistent detonation, which often has an opposite affect with fast(er) powders. If you want "full power" velocities with heavy bullets, please use an appropriate powder and primer combination.

Taterhead
08-03-2012, 22:24
I agree with what dm1906 on all counts. The results reported are pretty good as is. 800-X has shown some evidence of inconsistency, so there are some big time variations in results. As I posted in another thread, 9.6 grains under a 180 XTP gives me significant indications of excessive pressures.

Mag primers and 800-X are NOT good combos. As dm1906 said, taking what is a medium-burning powder and speeding up the burn rate with a mag primer is not desirable. Pressures will likely increase. I prefer to increase pressures by adding powder and the corresponding volume of expanding gasses.

At 9.7 grains, this is a full grain beyond the manufacturer max. If your gun likes the loads you are shooting, and it prints well on paper; 1273 fps is a pretty nice speed out of an autoloader.

walrus108
08-08-2012, 14:01
I find it interesting that this is the second post today that provides very good evidence that 800x has a very distinct line of diminishing returns. It seems that above 9.3-9.4gr, you gain very little velocity adding more powder. From my way of thinking, from your data, I'd probably never use more than 9.3gr 800x with a Hornady 180g and 800x. For me to get @1250fps with 9.4gr of 800x seems like a great load, if it's accurate.

Any info on which one shot the tightest groups?

AMSting
08-08-2012, 18:36
I find it interesting that this is the second post today that provides very good evidence that 800x has a very distinct line of diminishing returns. It seems that above 9.3-9.4gr, you gain very little velocity adding more powder. From my way of thinking, from your data, I'd probably never use more than 9.3gr 800x with a Hornady 180g and 800x. For me to get @1250fps with 9.4gr of 800x seems like a great load, if it's accurate.

Any info on which one shot the tightest groups?

No data on accuracy yet. I was trying to get the velocity first, then adjust as needed for accuracy. Hornady shows up to 10.1 grains max, but only with a velocity of 1250fps. I guess I should be happy with what I am getting. Plus, the stock 4.6" barrel probably loses a little velocity too. Next I am going to load in 0.1 grain increments around 9.5 grains to see how the accuracy is affected.

nickE10mm
08-09-2012, 13:48
Almost 1300 fps from a 180gr bullet using 9.7gr? I'd be happy with those numbers. They seem consistent with what I've gotten, as well. Also, don't use mag primers with 800X. Not safe or needed, IMHO. What others have said above is good info.

TDC20
08-19-2012, 13:04
AMSting, I'm using CCI#300 standard primers with 9.7gr. 800-X and getting 1295fps from the stock G20 barrel, which is very consistent with your results. This is my "hot" 800-X load for 180gr XTP's and stock G20 barrel. The same load shot from my LWD 6" barrel runs right around 1400fps average. This would be my hunting load, using the 6" barrel, if I ever actually hunt with the G20. That, sir, is true "magnum" handgun performance!

Also, from my load work-up data, 10fps per 0.1 gr. of powder increase is roughly what I am seeing also. I have seen some posts on lot-to-lot consistency of 800-X, but I can't say that I have seen that. Could be your 800-X is a tad slower than average. I'm happy with the pressure signs I'm getting at 1300fps and have no desire to push further. YMMV, but do be careful. I would definitely heed other's advice to avoid using magnum primers with this load.

Wolf Spyder
08-23-2012, 22:16
AMString, I would like to add my name to the list of handloaders who are WARNING against using Magnum primers with 800-X.

I handload 165 grain Gold Dots to 10.2 grains of 800-X. I don't have a chronograph yet so I don't have speed numbers, but I do have pictures.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG_0406enhancedsmall.jpg

walrus108
08-23-2012, 22:28
Wow Wolf, those look flat out fried!

Did they re-enter earths atmosphere?

Wolf Spyder
08-23-2012, 23:45
I don't have any 10% gel or Sim-test so I use water. It tends to cause slight over expansion in the higher velocities compared to Sim-test and gel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG_0402_0403enhancedcroppedsmall.jpg

The Underwood 165 grain Gold Dot load is a little hotter than my load and should perform better than mine.



The Winchester 175 grain Silvertip JHP is what I carry most of the time.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/IMG_0362small.jpg

AMSting
08-24-2012, 21:05
I finally got a chance to check a few more loads. I read something about crimp having an effect, so I tried 9.7 grains 800-x with 0.421" 0.422", and 0.423" crimps. All ran about 1277-1280fps, so consisent with what I saw before. Crimp didn't have any effect for me. Well, my smallest standard deviation was with 0.421", so I might keep that.

All this time I had been using Federal 150 primers. I had a box of Winchester WLPs, so tried them to see what difference they might make. I dropped down a bit as well as using the 9.7 grains 800-x. I wound up with an average of 1326fps with the 9.7 grains. No pressure signs, but this was new Starline brass, so not sure what would happen with used brass. I don't plan to try used just because I have a recent purchase of new. So, I guess my answer is to use a different primer for 10mm. The Federal works fine for my target 45acp loads, but it makes sense the 10mm might be picky for primers.

Oh, and I won't be using magnum primers. There is data (even on here) using magnums, which is why I asked.

One more thing to add. I loaded 13.0 grains Accurate #9 with 180 grain HAP and got 1128fps (with Federal primers). But, this was noticeably very accurate. I hit less than an inch group with 10 rounds at about 13 yards. I wasn't really trying to test accuracy, but after the first couple shots, I went for both accuracy and speed reading. Rather soft shooting, so this might be a carry load.

OhioGlockMan
09-19-2012, 23:21
I have gone to Winchester primers for everything now, even rifles. Makes life much easier because the non magnum Winchester primers are kinda in between a standard and magnum, but plenty hot enough for anything you will need the extra spark for. I can tell you that with the high power rifle rounds when you use a lot of different ball powders they recommend a mag primer cuz they are sappousevley harder to ignite then the stick powders, and you can get hang fires. I use ball powders and winchester regular primers in 30-06, 7.62X54 and .223 and they all go off perfectly fine. The theory behind this is that all the Winchester powders are ball powders, and ball powders are sappousevly harder to ignite so even their standard non mag primer needs to be a bit hotter

walrus108
09-20-2012, 15:04
I have gone to Winchester primers for everything now, even rifles. Makes life much easier because the non magnum Winchester primers are kinda in between a standard and magnum, but plenty hot enough for anything you will need the extra spark for. I can tell you that with the high power rifle rounds when you use a lot of different ball powders they recommend a mag primer cuz they are sappousevley harder to ignite then the stick powders, and you can get hang fires. I use ball powders and winchester regular primers in 30-06, 7.62X54 and .223 and they all go off perfectly fine. The theory behind this is that all the Winchester powders are ball powders, and ball powders are sappousevly harder to ignite so even their standard non mag primer needs to be a bit hotter

+1

I think the WLP is the perfect primer for 10mm loaded to potential. Just enough extra spark for those packed cases without the pressure spike of true magnum primers. Love em!

GotFour
09-20-2012, 17:36
Using 800X pushing a 200grn XTP in a 6" KKM barrel, I have no issues reaching 1,300fps in my G-20. Its a very consistent, accurate load.

RDub01
09-20-2012, 17:42
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/10MM/180TMJ-9-12.jpg (http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/10MM/180TMJ-9-12.jpg)

You got more than I did with 800-X by a little bit. In my tests, Longshot was the fastest loads. I'm starting out with a Rem 2 primer as I wanted to see how a milder primer would do first. I only got one Smiley and that was with one of the 9.5grs of Longshots. All the other cases miked ok.