does the ACLU object to the U.S. Coast Guard... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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cowboywannabe
08-03-2012, 12:21
being a branch of military and having police powers of arrest?

i see they are against S1867, but ive yet to find as strong an opposition to the USCG having essecncially the same powers already.

any ACLU folks care to comment?

thank you.

Gunnut 45/454
08-03-2012, 12:58
And where have you seen the USCG kicking in doors on American soil? There arrests are at sea. Any arrests at ports in the US have to be inconjunction with local LEO's. What's the matter your friendly drug cartel runner get picked up. Lost your shipment of MJ, got to pay more lately? Maybe you and the ACLU should demand the criminal Obamanation cartel should be jailed instead.:rofl:

cowboywannabe
08-03-2012, 13:11
And where have you seen the USCG kicking in doors on American soil? There arrests are at sea. Any arrests at ports in the US have to be inconjunction with local LEO's. What's the matter your friendly drug cartel runner get picked up. Lost your shipment of MJ, got to pay more lately? Maybe you and the ACLU should demand the criminal Obamanation cartel should be jailed instead.:rofl:

pick any body of commercially navigable water within the U.S. (San Fran Bay, the James River, Savanna Harbor, the Chessapeak Bay) the USCG can without probable cause or reasonable articulable suspicion; stop, board, detain you, and sebsequently arrest you upon findings of....they can suspend the 4th Amendment in U.S. waters and the high seas.

Gunnut 45/454
08-03-2012, 14:30
cowboywannabe
So you don't want the USCG to protect our nation from drug runners/smugglers/terrorist/pirates( yes there still are pirates) etc.
Remember key word in your last post "navigable water"!

http://www.ask.com/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Coast_Guard

"The Coast Guard itself was moved to the Department of Transportation in 1967, and on 25 February 2003 it became part of the Department of Homeland Security. However, under 14 U.S.C. 3 as amended by section 211 of the Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation Act of 2006, upon the declaration of war and when Congress so directs in the declaration, or when the President directs, the Coast Guard operates as a service in the Department of the Navy."

Now I didn't know this! They are actually a DHS "law enforcement"!
So your point is mute!

cowboywannabe
08-03-2012, 22:06
cowboywannabe
So you don't want the USCG to protect our nation from drug runners/smugglers/terrorist/pirates( yes there still are pirates) etc.
Remember key word in your last post "navigable water"!

http://www.ask.com/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Coast_Guard

"The Coast Guard itself was moved to the Department of Transportation in 1967, and on 25 February 2003 it became part of the Department of Homeland Security. However, under 14 U.S.C. 3 as amended by section 211 of the Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation Act of 2006, upon the declaration of war and when Congress so directs in the declaration, or when the President directs, the Coast Guard operates as a service in the Department of the Navy."

Now I didn't know this! They are actually a DHS "law enforcement"!
So your point is mute!

so the USCG which is a branch of the armed forces, subject to the UCMJ has police powers of arrest off of military installations. so this would be o.k. for the US Army too right?

TactiCool
08-03-2012, 23:29
cowboywannabe
So you don't want the USCG to protect our nation from drug runners/smugglers/terrorist/pirates( yes there still are pirates) etc.
Remember key word in your last post "navigable water"!

http://www.ask.com/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Coast_Guard

"The Coast Guard itself was moved to the Department of Transportation in 1967, and on 25 February 2003 it became part of the Department of Homeland Security. However, under 14 U.S.C. 3 as amended by section 211 of the Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation Act of 2006, upon the declaration of war and when Congress so directs in the declaration, or when the President directs, the Coast Guard operates as a service in the Department of the Navy."

Now I didn't know this! They are actually a DHS "law enforcement"!
So your point is mute!

Coast guard is .mil just like the other 4 service branches but falls under DHS jurisdiction. It doesn't mean they are encorporated.

http://www.uscg.mil/top/careers.asp


The U.S. Coast Guard is one of five branches of the US Armed Forces, and falls under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. The Coast Guard is the nation's oldest continuous seagoing service with responsibilities including Search and Rescue (SAR), Maritime Law Enforcement (MLE), Aids to Navigation (ATON), Ice Breaking, Environmental Protection, Port Security and Military Readiness. In order to accomplish these missions the Coast Guard has 38,000 active-duty men and women, 8,000 Reservists, and 35,000 Auxiliary personnel who serve in a variety of job fields ranging from operation specialists and small-boat operators and maintenance specialists to electronic technicians and aviation mechanics.


And I think the point that CW was making was that .mil should not have LE powers because it violates Posse Comitatus.

CAcop
08-04-2012, 00:07
I think the problem is that the USCG is essentially a gendarmerie. Something that is common in European or European possessions or former possesions. Millitary Police in a lot of other coutires is like a uniformed FBI/DEA/etc.

Tradition is really what keeps the USCG in the military. We could essentially turn them into cops.

cowboywannabe
08-04-2012, 22:31
im writing an argumentative research paper about this and im having a hard time defeating myself. seems others are having a hard time defending the posse comitatus "violation" as well.

CAcop
08-04-2012, 22:48
im writing an argumentative research paper about this and im having a hard time defeating myself. seems others are having a hard time defending the posse comitatus "violation" as well.

I would look to the history of the USCG and where their power for search and seizure comes from. I am willing to bet they were initially an anti piracy or coastal patrol. Maybe their SAR mission got turned into safety inspection that turned into safety inspection and spot kilos of coke while looking for life jackets.

Look at the case law. I am sure their is plenty of it. Its not like the USCG just opened up for business in 1982.

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cowboywannabe
08-04-2012, 22:58
I would look to the history of the USCG and where their power for search and seizure comes from. I am willing to bet they were initially an anti piracy or coastal patrol. Maybe their SAR mission got turned into safety inspection that turned into safety inspection and spot kilos of coke while looking for life jackets.

Look at the case law. I am sure their is plenty of it. Its not like the USCG just opened up for business in 1982.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

done it. well researched...i picked a bad topic to try to argue against but im stuck with it now....

Gunnut 45/454
08-04-2012, 23:00
TactiCool
Not according to the laws I posted above. Since we are not in a decleared war, the USCG is under DHS control. DHS as far as I know is a Law enforcement agency. Looks like the lines have been blurred between Mil/ law enforcement. I still haven't seen nor heard of them enforcing out side there normal boundarys! I guess if the ACLU takes it to court the courts will have to decide if it's over the line as far as being constitutional.

Guss
08-05-2012, 01:05
im writing an argumentative research paper about this and im having a hard time defeating myself. seems others are having a hard time defending the posse comitatus "violation" as well.
Posse comitatus was not written with the Coast Guard in mind. The Navy follows it by internal policy, but not by law. No constitutional problem here.

Here along the Gulf coast, the Coast Guard regularly nabs narcotics smugglers and I don't think anybody has a problem with that except the druggies.

ChuteTheMall
08-05-2012, 07:24
How can they arrest smugglers if they lose arrest powers?

:headscratch:

walt cowan
08-05-2012, 08:23
their under the department of transportation. just like the dot cops that stalk truck drivers on the interstate.

MDLibertarian
08-05-2012, 09:16
pick any body of commercially navigable water within the U.S. (San Fran Bay, the James River, Savanna Harbor, the Chessapeak Bay) the USCG can without probable cause or reasonable articulable suspicion; stop, board, detain you, and sebsequently arrest you upon findings of....they can suspend the 4th Amendment in U.S. waters and the high seas.

I think this is the kind of story you're looking for even though its from 1992. Drug-Hunting Coast Guard Damages Innocent Yacht (http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19921204&slug=1528128)

Bad intel provided to the USCG resulted in four days of the couples' lives gone, being treated like criminals, and $8000 in damage done to their yacht. And all for what when not a damn bit of evidence was discovered to suspect them of any wrongdoing? :shame:

cowboywannabe
08-05-2012, 10:16
ok ok, the USCG is part of DHS and is a .mil.

when did your 4th amendement rights end at the waters edge of Lake Michigan?

Gunnut 45/454
08-05-2012, 10:41
cowboywannabe
As far as I know they don't! When your on a boat your subject to different set of laws! Remember as the Captian of a ship you have certain powers you don't enjoy while on land! Therefore the law treat you differently while on the water. Inland water ways are alittle different then open sea but not much ! The 4th doesn't apply in the international waters! Remember there is the Canandian border out there in the Great lakes. Depending on where your at in the lakes it could many miles out in the lake or just a few hundred feet!:supergrin:

cowboywannabe
08-05-2012, 10:51
cowboywannabe
As far as I know they don't! When your on a boat your subject to different set of laws! Remember as the Captian of a ship you have certain powers you don't enjoy while on land! Therefore the law treat you differently while on the water. Inland water ways are alittle different then open sea but not much ! The 4th doesn't apply in the international waters! Remember there is the Canandian border out there in the Great lakes. Depending on where your at in the lakes it could many miles out in the lake or just a few hundred feet!:supergrin:

the Chesapeake Bay, Mississippi River north of Baton Rouge, Lake Michigan...all three are inland bodies of water within the U.S. and your 4th Amendment rights dont stand.

if the USCG being a .mil isnt in violation of posse comitatus because they are acting as the "cops" on the Chesapeake Bay, can the Maryland State police or Virginia State Police board your boat the same way? the DNR boards boats all the time with no PC except youre on the water. when did your 4th amendment rights end at the waters edge?

Gunnut 45/454
08-05-2012, 12:45
cowboywannabe
Not true! When they come up to your boat they have to ask premission to board! The Captain of the boat can deny them. They can only come aboard with permission or they have to articulate a crime is in progress! Now if you say no they have the option of telling you to go to port for inspection- IE they get a warrent! I'm telling you this as I grew up fishing and boating on the Great Lakes. Had to deal with USCG alot as smuggling/boat theft to and from Cananda was big. The pretense for boarding was always for a safety violation- number one -not enough life vest aboard or if your vessel was big enough a life boat, nav lights inop, registration out of date, obvious alochol use etc.. Just like they use to do traffic stops.

427
08-05-2012, 13:01
The coasties have a station in NM, a desert land locked state.
Flotilla 24 - Albuquerque
Division 2
8th District Coastal Region

Albuquerque, New Mexico

humanguerrilla
08-05-2012, 14:04
And the Coast Guard is bound to the Posse Comitatus Act whenever transferred from Homeland Security to DOD. In its normal capacity as federal maritime law enforcement and border control it is not.

Gary W Trott
08-06-2012, 04:47
I am willing to bet they were initially an anti piracy or coastal patrol.
And you would be correct. The history of the US Coast Guard (http://www.uscg.mil/history/articles/h_uscghistory.asp) is a very interesting one. Taxes and smuggling are a big part of their focus then, just as it has been since their creation, and still is today.

cowboywannabe
08-06-2012, 08:29
cowboywannabe
Not true! When they come up to your boat they have to ask premission to board! The Captain of the boat can deny them. They can only come aboard with permission or they have to articulate a crime is in progress! Now if you say no they have the option of telling you to go to port for inspection- IE they get a warrent! I'm telling you this as I grew up fishing and boating on the Great Lakes. Had to deal with USCG alot as smuggling/boat theft to and from Cananda was big. The pretense for boarding was always for a safety violation- number one -not enough life vest aboard or if your vessel was big enough a life boat, nav lights inop, registration out of date, obvious alochol use etc.. Just like they use to do traffic stops.

the USCG does not to ask permission to board your vessel in U.S. waters even on the great lakes. they might ask out of politeness but they will board you just the same even if you say no.

Gunnut 45/454
08-06-2012, 09:35
cowboywannabe
And if they board you without permission it's like busting in your house without a warrent! They could and would be in big dodo legally! If this is happen-ie to you or anyone you know then I suggest you get a lawyer as sue the livin **** out of them. As I'd do if the cops did the same to my home!:steamed: I haven't been on a vessel in years as a captian but I haven't heard of nor seen any major changes to maritime law that suggest they can act as you say- if they are then it's time for someone to step up a sue.