Reposting on Reloading Forum from General Glocking [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Chuckc
08-05-2012, 14:45
Yesterday at a GSSF match I had a RSO tell me that Plated bullets will keyhole (tumble) when shot in a Glock barrel. This is more apparent at longer ranges - say 25 yards.
The conversation started when scoring one of my 5 to Glock strings and one hole was slightly out of round at the 25 yd target. This was with my G26.
I have not heard of this before and after shooting thousands of rounds of plated 124 gr bullets I'm a little surprised. However there is always something new to learn so I thought I'd ask the members of this forum for their comments/input.

Note: I get ~1050 fps from these loads.

lethal tupperwa
08-05-2012, 15:10
that is BS!

ChrisJn
08-05-2012, 15:18
that is BS!

Not necessarily. Some years ago I tried 135gr Berrys plated bullets with Titegroup in .40SW and they tumbled all the time. Changed to 155gr and HS6 and, more recently Accurate #5. The problem has not recurred.
The RSO should have used the word "possibly" instead of "will".
OP experiment a bit with your loads.

unclebob
08-05-2012, 15:33
If you over crimp you can get key holing.

RWBlue
08-05-2012, 15:38
Not with my guns.

Chuckc
08-05-2012, 15:41
AS an added note, I have not noticed any key-holing myself in all the thousands of rounds of my loads I have shot. Of course I was not looking for it either.

I do add a taper crimp in the final (4th) stage of reloading in my Dillon 550B. I have tried to keep the crimp to ~ 0.001"-0.003". Would that be OK? or is that too much?? Too little??

unclebob
08-05-2012, 15:55
You just crimp enough to remove the bell on the case. You should have no or a very slight ring where the mouth of the case was. If you break the plating on the bullet you can get key holing. That is with any gun using plated bullets. Just not Glocks. Also by not using enough bell on the case before seating the bullet can cause key holing by scraping the plating.

WeeWilly
08-05-2012, 16:40
If the target had an unsupported part where the bullet went through, often times that will result in an oblong hole.

Real keyholing is actually pretty rare. I have had enough stability problems with certain bullets out of certain barrels, that I never discount it completely, but checking everything else first is good policy (like one time I was sure I was having stability problems shooting my G20, till I realized my front sight was loose...)

As a few have mentioned, if you over crimp (with plated anything more than just returning the case mouth to straight is too much) you will damage the bullet and all sorts of grief will ensue.

Gokyo
08-05-2012, 17:04
I did not have any key hole issues when I shot plated bullets.

unclebob
08-05-2012, 17:41
Real keyholing is actually pretty rare.

I have had it happen twice on me. Once I got a bad batch of bullets. Prove my two other people that loaded them and shot out of their guns. And once when I tried the Lee U die. And I have seen it 4 or 5 times when I was ROing at Glock matches.

Taterhead
08-05-2012, 18:12
I have seen horrible accuracy with plated bullets if due care is not taken in loading them. I have loaded them in 40 S&W, but mosly 10mm auto. To get respectable groups, I adhered to the following loading protocol. All are designed to disturb the plating as little as possible:

Give a generous bell
Seat longish
Seat and crimp in separate steps
As UncleBob said: crimp just enough to remove the bell.
Keep velocities in check. Anything above 1050 and groups get marginal

I have observed a few times where the bullets completely missed an IDPA at 25 yards when not following the preceding protocol. I have seen sideways strikes too on new targets. WeeWilly is right about oblong holes in a well-worn target backer, but I have seen indisputable keyholing with Berry's bullets.

I have mentioned this before; a really good plated (copper bonded) bullet is from PowerBond. They function more like a jacketed bullet without all of the fussiness of plated bullets. Their prices are better than Berry's or Rainier too. Excellent groups at higher velocities.

dkf
08-05-2012, 18:34
Honestly with what plated bullets cost I can't see using them much at all. Either go with cast or jacketed.

WiskyT
08-05-2012, 18:54
The OP was using a fast powder. How do I know this? Because plated bullets will keyhole when pushed too much with fast powders.

For the most part, plated bullets are crap. They are a pure lead core with a very light plating on them. They got a good reputation a couple of decades ago when they were fairly cheap and had thicker plating. Nowadays, they cost as much or even more than jacketed bullets and the plating is pretty lame on most of them. For as light as they need to be loaded to work, lead costs much less.

Fire_Medic
08-05-2012, 19:00
Well I hope the Xtreme bullets I ordered work out, because I ordered a few of them for my 9MM IDPA loads........

unclebob
08-05-2012, 19:06
Honestly with what plated bullets cost I can't see using them much at all. Either go with cast or jacketed.

I use plated bullets because what the jacket bullets would cost me for 1000. I can get 1500 for about the same price.

WeeWilly
08-05-2012, 19:20
Well I hope the Xtreme bullets I ordered work out, because I ordered a few of them for my 9MM IDPA loads........


I think the Xtreme's have a pretty thick plating, much tougher than Berry's. I personally prefer Precison Delta and Montana Gold jacketed, but a LOT of guys shoot Xtreme's out here.

unclebob
08-05-2012, 19:31
Well I hope the Xtreme bullets I ordered work out, because I ordered a few of them for my 9MM IDPA loads........

The group that I travel with we have been using X-Treme bullets for 13+ years. I also know a lot of master class shooters that use X-treme bullets. I just received 2000 rounds of the new 147gr. bullets. Have not had the time to load and try them out yet. Two of the guys I travel with both say that they are very accurate.

fredj338
08-05-2012, 19:33
If you over crimp you can get key holing.

^^THIS^^ I pulled some 45acp I picked up at my local club, Berry's plated, crimped so the bullet measures 0.448"!:shocked: I would be surprised if his rounds even hit the target @ 15yds. Plated have to be loaded with care. Do not over crim, no LFCD, don't run them beyond 1250fps, they shoot fine in GLocks or anything else.

Fire_Medic
08-05-2012, 19:34
I think the Xtreme's have a pretty thick plating, much tougher than Berry's. I personally prefer Precison Delta and Montana Gold jacketed, but a LOT of guys shoot Xtreme's out here.

Thanks for the reassurance. I left Berry's alone years ago when I had a bad experience shooting some loaded in 45ACP, which is by no means a fast round.

A couple of people told me about the Xtreme's so I was going off of their word. I have been using MG for a long time maybe 2 years now, but the quantity I ordered of the Xtreme's and the little bit less I got them for added up.

Fire_Medic
08-05-2012, 19:38
The group that I travel with we have been using X-Treme bullets for 13+ years. I also know a lot of master class shooters that use X-treme bullets. I just received 2000 rounds of the new 147gr. bullets. Have not had the time to load and try them out yet. Two of the guys I travel with both say that they are very accurate.

Thanks bob, I have some 124's coming, I was thinking of 147's but stuck to what I know and what the press is setup for. I started shooting IDPA a few weeks ago and my round count has "slightly" increased, lol :rofl:

The box was going to be delivered Saturday, but the USPS left me a note on the door to go pick it up because it was "too heavy"......... :supergrin:

unclebob
08-05-2012, 19:55
Thanks bob, I have some 124's coming, I was thinking of 147's but stuck to what I know and what the press is setup for. I started shooting IDPA a few weeks ago and my round count has "slightly" increased, lol :rofl:

The box was going to be delivered Saturday, but the USPS left me a note on the door to go pick it up because it was "too heavy"......... :supergrin:
My female postal worker delivered my 2000 rds. to my front door in one trip. 1500 in one box and 500 in the other box. They come in flat rate boxes so each box is under 70lbs.

Fire_Medic
08-05-2012, 20:00
My female postal worker delivered my 2000 rds. to my front door in one trip. 1500 in one box and 500 in the other box. They come in flat rate boxes so each box is under 70lbs.

My Female postal lady is a very nice older woman so I would not expect her to carry this order, I got 9K.........:whistling:

Taterhead
08-05-2012, 20:44
The group that I travel with we have been using X-Treme bullets for 13+ years. I also know a lot of master class shooters that use X-treme bullets. I just received 2000 rounds of the new 147gr. bullets. Have not had the time to load and try them out yet. Two of the guys I travel with both say that they are very accurate.

Similar experience here except different brand. Other than cast bullets for CDP, the shooters in my IDPA club that reload mostly shoot plated. We have a few master class shooters that run them pretty much exclusively.

Years ago it was pretty much all Berry's. We have switched to the thicker-plated, higher-quality PowerBonds and enjoy better pricing. We buy as a group, so the price is better than Precision Delta or Berry's. I have heard pretty good things about Xtreme, but haven't personally tried them.

ursoboostd
08-06-2012, 16:58
I've shot thousands of Xtreme bullets and love them.

Ceapea
08-06-2012, 17:15
I too have had great luck (and great accuracy) using X-treme bullets. I read an article a year or so ago about the inaccuracies of plated bullets. They were using Berry's plated bullets.
On the other hand, I know of a guy who only uses Berry's for his PPC shooting and he does very well with them. I just tried some 100gr Berry's bullets for my 380 stuff and it shoots very well also.

WiskyT
08-06-2012, 17:44
Plating is really dependent on the thickness vs performance desired. Gold Dots are plated, but they hold up to 500SW magnum. Federal even has some "plated" hunting rifle bullets. But, I have several thousand "West Coast" brand plated bullets that I just about have to dribble out of the barrel in 40SW to prevent them from keyholing. They were my father's and I cast my own bullets that I can run as fast as I want, so they sit collecting dust for now.

If I was going to get plated bullets, I would research carefully regarding quality. Extreme seems to have a good rep, so I'm sure they are good to go. Others may be as well, but I have no idea. I do know that the plated Federal factory rounds shoot fine in 30-06 at 2,800fps out of my Stevens 200, so a plated bullet can do just about anything. Or they can suck real bad. It's all in how they are made.

lethal tupperwa
08-06-2012, 19:27
the length of berrys has at times been inconsistent.

njl
08-06-2012, 20:58
It depends on the gun, bullet, and load. I've shot a bunch of X-Treme 147gr and found they can keyhole from my G34, but never saw it with my G17.

You should definitely test any gun/load combination you plan to use at a match before the match. Scoring keyholed targets sucks.