Spark plugs. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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okie
08-06-2012, 06:48
What are you all runnin for spark plugs, OE or after market? It's getting close to spark plug change in my pickup and I'm trying to decide what plug to run:headscratch:

BigMoneyGrip
08-06-2012, 06:53
I use the NGK iridium plugs in my wife's ride.

paynter2
08-06-2012, 06:56
Okie - you always say you like your truck. It's given you good service. That said, I'd stick with OEM plugs. :wavey:

BuckeyePPC
08-06-2012, 06:56
I use the NGK iridium plugs in my wife's ride.

I use these in my Honda CRV. Changed at the 100K mile mark and will use them again at the 200K mile. The first set looked great and am saving them for spares.

SC Tiger
08-06-2012, 06:59
AC Delco platinum (OEM Plugs) - GMs don't really like anything else.

I'd use whatever came in it. Super-fancy plugs don't usually gain enough to make a difference.

okie
08-06-2012, 06:59
Okie - you always say you like your truck. It's given you good service. That said, I'd stick with OEM plugs. :wavey:

It's been an awesome pickup for sure and I plan on keeping it for a long time so OE may just be the ticket again my friend:thumbsup:

sourdough44
08-06-2012, 06:59
I changed the plugs in my 2003 GMC for the 1st time last year. The truck had about 70k miles. After some online research I saw the recommended plugs took 2 leaps fwd from those listed in the owner's manual. I'm sure the older types in the manual would of worked fine, but I went with the newer iridium type. I just ordered them off fleabay.

FYI I had to get a 'boot puller' to pull a few of the harder to access boots off the older plugs.

okie
08-06-2012, 07:01
Super-fancy plugs don't usually gain enough to make a difference.

That's my thoughts also my friend:thumbsup:

aircarver
08-06-2012, 07:01
Since you don't change 'em very often anymore, go for the expensive (platinum, iridium) ones.

They so don't wear out anymore, it's tempting to not bother at all, but this might result in the plug seizing and tearing the threads out of the head when you have to replace one.

So, if for no other reason, change 'em to renew the anti-seize compound on the threads ....

okie
08-06-2012, 07:04
So, if for no other reason, change 'em to renew the anti-seize compound on the threads ....
Wise words there my friend:supergrin:

M&P15T
08-06-2012, 07:05
I'm kind of torn on this topic.

My last car, a 2005 Mustang 4.6GT, I only changed plugs once, and those particular plugs are very specialized, with only one choice of after-market plugs, which I used and worked very well.

In my cars of the past, I used the best plugs that money can buy, Uber un-obtanium plated super-sparkers. And back then I was such a car fiend that I was changing faaaar too often, way more than necessary. They worked well as long as they were properly gapped, which is very important.

Now, with current cars that are highly engineered, especially their ignition/fuel supply/engine management systems, I'd lead stick with OEM. They're made for the specific ignition needs, and the specific combustion chamber temps and pressures.

Unlocked
08-06-2012, 07:10
Over the years I've learned to just stick with Motorcraft plugs in my Fords.

itstime
08-06-2012, 07:11
Champions are or in your truck Okie.

SC Tiger
08-06-2012, 07:11
Two more questions:

1) What kind of truck is it? It looks like a Dodge if that is it in your avatar.

2) Do you have aluminum or cast-iron heads? If you have aluminum ones make sure the truck is dead cold before changing them. I bought the plugs for mine one day, let it sit overnight and changed them the next morning. Mine has aluminum heads (I wish they were cast iron or steel or whatever they use now).

okie
08-06-2012, 07:15
Two more questions:

1) What kind of truck is it? It looks like a Dodge if that is it in your avatar.

2) Do you have aluminum or cast-iron heads? If you have aluminum ones make sure the truck is dead cold before changing them. I bought the plugs for mine one day, let it sit overnight and changed them the next morning. Mine has aluminum heads (I wish they were cast iron or steel or whatever they use now).

Yes that's my pickup in my avatar, 06 Ram 4.7l with aluminum heads:supergrin:

okie
08-06-2012, 07:15
Champions are or in your truck Okie.

Yup you are right as rain my friend:supergrin:

I'M Glockamolie
08-06-2012, 07:16
This depends on the vehicle and the type of ignition system it has. Some vehicles run horribly on "expensive" plugs, depending on the makeup of the plugs. I would either a) do the research, and see what the forums concensus is on your vehicle, with your engine. And I mean go to a Dodge Ram (or whatever yours is) forum and look around, or b) go with OEM plugs. Chances are we won't know over here, and everyone's experience will be different, based on what they drive and what plugs they bought.

stolenphot0
08-06-2012, 07:18
Stick with OEM and you can't go wrong. Depending on the age of your truck too, it may not be set up for hot burning fancy plugs. I know the 96 & earlier F-series trucks are not fond of the fancy plugs and a lot of the guys that really tune their trucks, stick with the copper OEM Motorcraft.

CitizenOfDreams
08-06-2012, 07:33
NGK Iridium in the bike, Bosch Platinum Plus in the car. Or, if you don't feel adventurous, you can always use what the manufacturer recommends.

Viper16
08-06-2012, 07:52
NKG Iridium's On all my vehicles.

bobby_w
08-06-2012, 07:59
OEM specified brand and number, but upgraded to Iridiums.

I usually change them at 80,000 miles.

I do most of the service myself and keep my vehicles until they fall apart.

ateamer
08-06-2012, 08:09
Tempest. $21.25 apiece, and the engine takes eight of them.

Those are for our airplane. Add the words "aviation" and "certified" to any product and the price goes through the roof.

firefighter4215
08-06-2012, 08:22
I use Denso Iridium plugs in my Chevy Colorado. They run smoother than the AC Delco Iridiums. That's somewhat common knowledge on the Colorado forums. For the Accord I used NGK platinums. Should've bought iridiums, but the platinum ones seem to be working well.

RenoF250
08-06-2012, 08:23
Anything but Champion in my book. I usually go for Autolite Platinum. Good plug and not very expensive. My car has some fancy NGKs that you can only buy from the dealer.

BTW real truck don't have spark plugs. :tongueout:

Gareth68
08-06-2012, 08:24
OEM parts = fit right, work right, no headaches, no returns.

SC Tiger
08-06-2012, 08:24
Tempest. $21.25 apiece, and the engine takes eight of them.

Those are for our airplane. Add the words "aviation" and "certified" to any product and the price goes through the roof.

Try adding the words "Medical product" - even if it isn't something that actually needs to be sterile.

I'M Glockamolie
08-06-2012, 08:33
Anything but Champion in my book.

Champions are for lawn mowers and Dodges. :)

aircarver
08-06-2012, 09:06
Tempest. $21.25 apiece, and the engine takes eight of them.

Those are for our airplane. Add the words "aviation" and "certified" to any product and the price goes through the roof.
:rofl:

Yes ....

Boy Howdy !

.

okie
08-06-2012, 09:06
Anything but Champion in my book. I usually go for Autolite Platinum. Good plug and not very expensive. My car has some fancy NGKs that you can only buy from the dealer.

BTW real truck don't have spark plugs. :tongueout:

I cant afford a diesel pickup though:embarassed::supergrin:

aircarver
08-06-2012, 09:08
Does a 'real truck' need fuel additives ? .......






:outtahere::supergrin:

.

SC Tiger
08-06-2012, 09:37
Does a 'real truck' need fuel additives ? .......






:outtahere::supergrin:

.

or $12,000 in repair if the fuel pump grenades? :tongueout:

(I don't know much about this issue except one GT poster mentioned it a while back. Supposedly it's rare but can happen to Chevy, Ford and VW diesels).

ChiefWPD
08-06-2012, 09:53
OK, I'm gonna hijack the thread. Shouldn't we be concerned about keeping plugs in their seats for such a long period of time. I have no doubt that good plugs will go 100,000 miles. Problem is, at least for us low mileage a year guys, that means metal to metal contact (plug threads to engine) would be for a loooong time. When I did my aircraft (and MC) plugs I'd put some anti-seize compound on the threads (just a bit, and not near the electrodes as that could short the plug out). Never had an issue.

Problem is, I ain't doing my cars plugs.

aircarver
08-06-2012, 10:15
Soooo ... Did you read post #9 ?

.

CitizenOfDreams
08-06-2012, 12:33
OEM parts = fit right, work right, no headaches, no returns.

OEM parts have their "moments" too. Remember the breaking spark plugs in Ford motors a few years ago?

SC Tiger
08-06-2012, 12:39
OEM parts have their "moments" too. Remember the breaking spark plugs in Ford motors a few years ago?

Did they break or strip out the threads in the spark plug hole? Ford had an issue with the spark plug holes stripping out that was the result of a design defect in the cylinder head. The solution is a steel threaded insert but putting them in is a pain.

napp32
08-06-2012, 12:45
I agree with the OEM comments. Just don't forget to coat the threads with a quality anti-seize compound. Your aluminum heads will thank you.

TheExplorer
08-06-2012, 12:48
OEM for sure. I've seen too many people try the latest "magnasupertricoatium" and then have unintended issues. Save yourself the headache. You might want to invest a whole $1 in a GAP tool as well when you install them just to make sure they are within spec.

SC Tiger
08-06-2012, 12:49
I agree with the OEM comments. Just don't forget to coat the threads with a quality anti-seize compound. Your aluminum heads will thank you.

This.

And remember - dead cold.

SC Tiger
08-06-2012, 12:51
OEM for sure. I've seen too many people try the latest "magnasupertricoatium" and then have unintended issues. Save yourself the headache. You might want to invest a whole $1 in a GAP tool as well when you install them just to make sure they are within spec.

This, IF you know how to use one (which I assume you do). Also comes in handy if you drop one on it's electrode. Don't ask how I know that.

If you're as picky as me also get a torque wrench to make sure you don't over-tighten and strip out the spark plug holes.

CitizenOfDreams
08-06-2012, 13:42
Did they break or strip out the threads in the spark plug hole? Ford had an issue with the spark plug holes stripping out that was the result of a design defect in the cylinder head. The solution is a steel threaded insert but putting them in is a pain.

There were some spark plugs that separated when you tried to screw them out. Removing the stub from the engine was quite a quest:
http://www.phila.gov/fleet/Warranty%20Recalls/tsb08-07-06%20FORD.pdf

sheriff733
08-06-2012, 13:47
What are you all runnin for spark plugs, OE or after market? It's getting close to spark plug change in my pickup and I'm trying to decide what plug to run:headscratch:

I have always had good luck with Autolite.

YMMV

:wavey:

SC Tiger
08-06-2012, 13:48
There were some spark plugs that separated when you tried to screw them out. Removing the stub from the engine was quite a quest:
http://www.phila.gov/fleet/Warranty%20Recalls/tsb08-07-06%20FORD.pdf

Is it just me or do Fords tend to have really wierd problems like this? GMs just blow head gaskets and transmissions - you know, the normal stuff.

RenoF250
08-06-2012, 15:20
Is it just me or do Fords tend to have really wierd problems like this? GMs just blow head gaskets and transmissions - you know, the normal stuff.

Yes, Ford has done a couple of stupid things with spark plugs. I don't know that GM's orange anti-freeze gel is that normal though.

Some things OEM is the way to go, spark plugs is not one of them. Aftermarket is usually better.

$12k for a pump is awful crazy. I could see on a certain engine if it took out the injectors and you had all of the work done it could be $12k. I know on my Powerstroke the fuel pump is a couple hundred and before the filter. Also, the only additive I use is Marvel Mystery Oil because I want to. It is not required.

SC Tiger
08-06-2012, 17:04
Yes, Ford has done a couple of stupid things with spark plugs. I don't know that GM's orange anti-freeze gel is that normal though.

Some things OEM is the way to go, spark plugs is not one of them. Aftermarket is usually better.

$12k for a pump is awful crazy. I could see on a certain engine if it took out the injectors and you had all of the work done it could be $12k. I know on my Powerstroke the fuel pump is a couple hundred and before the filter. Also, the only additive I use is Marvel Mystery Oil because I want to. It is not required.

The orange antifreeze (Dexcool) is the spawn of Satan.

The $12k fuelnpump thing is because of other damage that happens as a result. I cannot swear that the $12k number is accurate either. The part that fails and starts the whole thing is actually a Bosch component.

I wasn't saying GM was better than ford but they tend to break in more normal ways.

Sent from my Kindle Fire

MoparMan1991
08-06-2012, 17:37
Well it looks like you have an 07(ish) Ram. What size engine do you have? Does it have dual plug heads?


After reading your post with your vehicle description, I now know you have a 4.7L. Im sure the newer 4.7s had dual plug heads. If this is your case, I believe Chrysler used iridium or platinum lower plugs, and copper core upper plugs.

NEOH212
08-06-2012, 17:51
I stick with OEM plugs, especially in Fords.

Angry Fist
08-06-2012, 17:51
Delco Iridium. Delco platinum.

Atlas
08-06-2012, 18:49
Anti-seize compound applied very lightly to the threads, but stopping at the top of the threads.. The plug needs good electrical contact to the head.

I'M Glockamolie
08-06-2012, 19:20
The orange antifreeze (Dexcool) is the spawn of Satan.


No, basically telling people not to fool with it for 5yrs/100k miles was the problem!

Atlas
08-06-2012, 19:30
No, basically telling people not to fool with it for 5yrs/100k miles was the problem!

Yep.


I've been running Dexcool for 7 years, 105K miles.
Been flushed and replaced once, at about 65K miles.
No problems at all.

Another percieved problem with Dexcool is that folks stop at a quick oil-change shop and some $9/hour "tech" adds a little non-Dexcool to top it off.

Adding green (non-Dexcool) to a radiator filled with Dex will kill it for certain.

Because I travel and am away from home most of the year I'm forced to use quick-lube shops.
Before pulling in I give strict instructions that no fluids other than oil are to be added. Most shops now use a "universal" coolant that is Dexcool-compatible anyway.

defend2nd
08-06-2012, 19:33
I have changed the plugs twice on my Jeep Patriot and I've always used Autolite. Never had a problem.

David

SC Tiger
08-06-2012, 19:58
My real problem os the stupid overcomplicated system GM uses. A simple radiator cap system like other manufacturers use is IMO much better.

Sent from my Kindle Fire

NEOH212
08-06-2012, 20:50
Anti-seize compound applied very lightly to the threads, but stopping at the top of the threads.. The plug needs good electrical contact to the head.

Use copper based anti-seize. It has better electrical conductivity than most others.

Geeorge
08-06-2012, 21:00
Running bosch +4 platnium in two of my cars and when my patriot is due for a change it will get them too

My old dodge is too old for them to have them for it

RenoF250
08-06-2012, 23:36
Use copper based anti-seize. It has better electrical conductivity than most others.

It doesn't matter. All anti-seize is conductive when smashed in the threads.

CitizenOfDreams
08-07-2012, 00:56
Use copper based anti-seize. It has better electrical conductivity than most others.

I don't think the resistance of the anti-seize would have any significance for a spark plug that already has a large (several kilohms) built-in resistor.

NEOH212
08-07-2012, 01:32
or $12,000 in repair if the fuel pump grenades? :tongueout:

(I don't know much about this issue except one GT poster mentioned it a while back. Supposedly it's rare but can happen to Chevy, Ford and VW diesels).

If your referring to a diesel engine's injection pump, then yes. The lower sulfur content in the fuel means less lubricity which means more wear.

This is true for the fuel injectors also. Fortunately, most modern diesels have gone away from a standard injection pump and now either have a common rail fuel system such as the new International MaxxForce engine or the Detroit Diesel DD13/15 or the New Ford 6.7.

(A little older technology) Or electronic unit injection such as the Cat C15, Cat 3176, Cummins N14 or Detroit Diesel series 60.

Some modern diesels run the HEUI (Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injection) in which a high pressure oil pump supplies the necessary oil pressure to operate the fuel injector. Examples of these engines are the International/Ford 7.3 or the 6.0. Also the International 444 or the Cat 3126.

A few modern diesels are running the electronic unit pump (aka: EUP) which is a high pressure fuel injection pump that's camshaft driver, but has a pump and injection nozzle for each cylinder in the engine.

Some examples of engines that run this type of fuel system are the Mercedes MBE 4000/900 and the Mack ASET 427.

My point being is regardless of the fuel system, the lower sulfur content in the fuel will accelerate wear more so than the higher sulfur content fuels.

The higher sulfur fuels allowed for better lubricity than modern fuels. Some of this can be curbed with additives. However, modern diesel fuels have a much better cetane number than fuels of even ten years ago.

Cetane is liken to what octane is in gasoline but in reverse. (I.E. A lower cetane number would be like a higher octane level in gas.) In other words, cetane, like octane, is a fuels resistance to ignite.

Like octane in gas, cetane in diesel fuel is extremely important. A proper (minimum) cetane level is required to prevent preignition like a minimum octane level in gasoline.

There is no benefit to using a higher cetane number fuel than is specified by the engine's manufacturer. The ASTN Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils (D-975) states. "The cetane number requirements depend on engine design, size, nature of speed and load variations, and on starting and atmospheric conditions.

Increase in cetane number over values actually required does not materially improve engine performance. Accordingly, the cetane number specified should be as low as possible to insure maximum fuel availability." This quote underscores the imnportance of matching engine cetane requirements with fuel cetane number.

Diesel fuels with cetane number lower than minimum engine requirements can cause rough engine operation. They are more difficult to start, expecially in cold weather or at high altitudes. They accelerate lube oil sludge formation.

Many low cetane fuels increase engine deposits resulting in more smoke, increased exhaust emissions and greater engine wear.

Using fuels which meet engine operating requirements will improve cold starting, reduce smoke during start-up, improve fuel economy, reduce exhaust emissions, improve engine durability and reduce noise and vibration.

As a side note if anyone was wondering, These engine fuel requirements are published in the operating manual for each specific engine or vehicle.

Overall fuel quality and performance depend on the ratio of parafinic and aromatic hydrocarbons, the presence of sulfur, water, bacteria and other contaminants, and the fuel's resistance to oxidation.

The most important measure of fuel quality included API gravity, heat value (BTU content), distillation range and viscosity. Cleanliness and corrosion resistance are also important. For use in cold weather, cloud point and low temperature filter plugging point must receive serious consideration. Cetane number does not measure any of these characteristics.

More on Cetane:

U.S. diesel fuels are blends of distillate fuels and cracked petroleum hydrocarbons. The cracked hydrocarbons are low cetane compounds, largely due to their aromatic content. To meet the cetane number demands of most diesel engines, cetane improvers must be added to these blends.

The lower cetane cracked compounds are less responsive to these cetane improvers than the higher cetane paraffinic fuels.

Cetane improvers modify combustion in the engine. They encourage early and uniform ignition of the fuel. They discourage premature combustion and excessive rate of pressure increase in the combustion cycle.

Depending on the amount of high versus low cetane components in the base fuel, typically alkyl nitrate additive treatments can increase cetane by about 3 to 5 numbers (1:1000 treatment ratio). With high natural cetane premium base buels (containing a high percentage of parafins) and a 1:500 treatment ratio, cetane may increase up to a maximum of about 7 numbers.

Fuel quality and a little on additives:


Fuel quality is defined by the physical property specifications given in the ASTM Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils, ASTM D-975. Carbon residue, ash and sulfur increase engine wear and deposit formation.

Premium diesel fuels should have lower specifications for these properties. Additionally, premium diesel fuels should be more stable in storage than standard fuels, so the premium fuel quality you purchase won't degrade over time. This is the area where nitrate-containing cetane improvers cause problems.

More fuel retailers are introducing premium diesel fuels, touting high cetane number as the sole benchmark of fuel quality. Contrary to this assumption, a cetane number which is too high may cause too short an ignition delay period. This changes the timing of the pressure peak, resulting in loss of power.

When this happens, many of the performance problems associated with low cetane fuel will result. While the problems due to low cetane largely disappear after the engine warms up, with too high a cetane, these problems will persist even with a hot engine.

Cetane number is an important measure of ignition quality, or cold-starting ability. API gravity is an excellent indicator of heat value, which translates into fuel economy and power.

The distillation curve reflects the molecular weight distribution, with higher boiling fractions providing better lubrication, higher cetane - and more deposits.

Sulfur content is directly related to corrosion, this needs to be as low as possible. Oxidation stability, water, and sediment content affect the storage life of the oil. For winter use, low cloud point and low temperature filter plugging point are critical to uninterrupted operation.

Another side note:

To insure the best quality fuel for your diesel engines, follow the engine manufacturer's specifications for all these characteristics.



Unfortunately, low sulfur diesel fuel is all that's available anymore (for the most part) is here to stay, and is all that can be run in EPA 2007 or newer diesel engines (at least the ones that have all the emission controls intact.) :whistling:

Hopefully this sheds a little light on diesel fuel for you!

:wavey:

NEOH212
08-07-2012, 01:34
I don't think the resistance of the anti-seize would have any significance for a spark plug that already has a large (several kilohms) built-in resistor.
Your absolutely correct!

But for those that are actually worried about it and loose sleep over those things and want to get technical.....:whistling:

I've used all different types of anti-seize on spark plugs with no ill effects.

NEOH212
08-07-2012, 01:34
It doesn't matter. All anti-seize is conductive when smashed in the threads.

See the post above this one sir!

:wavey:

NEOH212
08-07-2012, 01:43
OEM parts have their "moments" too. Remember the breaking spark plugs in Ford motors a few years ago?

A very common problem. I usually get a few of these a month. Usually is on Pre-2008 Ford modular's but I've seen it on a few newer that that.

I use the Time-Sert kit to make the repair rather than replacing the entire head. I can perform the repair without removing the head and in way less time! I haven't had one come back and I have done well over a hundred of them through the years.

This is a time proven repair for this problem. If anyone has this happen, don't let the dealership or repair shop BS into replacing the head for a spark plug thread failure.

I've only seen a handful of cases (and by a handful I mean maybe three cases) where the damage was beyond repair. It can happen but is extremely rare and is usually the result of some idiot that installed a heli-coil instead of the Time-Sert the first time.

However, if your vehicle is under warranty and this happens, Ford will replace the head as the Time-Sert method isn't a approved repair under Ford warranty.

Ask Ford though and they will insist the problem has been fixed and is no longer an issue. :upeyes:

Folsom_Prison
08-07-2012, 01:53
I'm a chevy guy always have been always will, it's pretty much all I've owned with the exception of one or two vehicles. The OE ac delco have always done the trick!

NEOH212
08-07-2012, 01:57
It doesn't matter. All anti-seize is conductive when smashed in the threads.

But the copper still has higher conductivity though...

:supergrin:


http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/lubricants/specialty_lubricants/Permatex_Copper_Anti-Seize_Lubricant_b.htm

Be sure to read!

NEOH212
08-07-2012, 03:14
Did they break or strip out the threads in the spark plug hole? Ford had an issue with the spark plug holes stripping out that was the result of a design defect in the cylinder head. The solution is a steel threaded insert but putting them in is a pain.

The 4.6 and 5.4 liter engines had problems with some of the plugs breaking.

Some of their 2 valve counterparts had issues with the threads that Ford claims is supposedly fixed and no longer a issue. :upeyes:

Atlas
08-07-2012, 04:21
Insomnia tonight NEOH?

aircarver
08-07-2012, 06:50
I use the Time-Sert kit to make the repair rather than replacing the entire head. I can perform the repair without removing the head and in way less time! I haven't had one come back and I have done well over a hundred of them through the years.

This is a time proven repair for this problem. If anyone has this happen, don't let the dealership or repair shop BS into replacing the head for a spark plug thread failure.
How do you keep debris from the install from getting in the cylinder ?

This is a real major design screw-up by a manufacturer ! .... :frown:

Ask Ford though and they will insist the problem has been fixed and is no longer an issue. :upeyes:


Boy, haven't we all heard this one before ! ...:upeyes:

.

NEOH212
08-08-2012, 02:03
How do you keep debris from the install from getting in the cylinder ?

This is a real major design screw-up by a manufacturer ! .... :frown:



Boy, haven't we all heard this one before ! ...:upeyes:

.

There are a few different ways you can go about minimizing the amount of debris. One is to use a product called Do All. It's a wax like form of lubricant for machine tools. You put it on the tap/cutter and it will collect the large stuff.

The other way is to stuff a rag into the cylinder and let the chips fall onto the rag. Then it can be sucked out with a special type of vacuum.

I use the first method and then use a bore scope to look into the cylinder after to make sure there isn't any large pieces in there. If there are, I use a small vacuum unit to remove them. When the cylinder is all clear, I blow it out with compressed air.

I haven't had a problem with this method yet. As for the second method, I don't recommend it. It can be done but if you've never tried to fish a rag into and back out of a engine through a spark plug hole you won't want to do it twice!

Yes, it's a big time design screw up on Ford's end and they did very little to make it right. As much as I like Ford, their lack of action with this problem was very disappointing.

NEOH212
08-08-2012, 02:04
Insomnia tonight NEOH?

No. I work the night shift so the night time is like the day time for me!

:wavey:

aircarver
08-08-2012, 05:56
Thanks NEOH !

I hate taking a head off, just to fix stripped spark plug threads !

.

GIockGuy24
08-08-2012, 06:20
For years most of the spark plug companies recommended against using anti-seize compound. They claim it affected the hear transfer characteristics in an unpredictable manner. Some car makers were already recommending the use of anti-seize compound on spark plugs in aluminum heads. The first spark plug I saw come out of the box with anti-seize compound (and it was on the threads) was AC Delco Rapidfires.

In the real world, steel threads should never be threaded into aluminum without anti-seize compound. Anti-seize compound should always be used in aluminum heads. Long life iridium plugs are great for aluminum heads because the more often they are changed, the more chances for damaging the threads comes up. On the other hand, what often damages the threads is the carbon build up on the threads of the spark plugs. Changing the spark plugs before the carbon build up gets bad makes it easier to change the spark plugs without damaging the heads. Changing the sparks plugs too often does risk damaging the threads each time they are changed.

With 100,000 mile spark plugs, they would only get one change in by 200,000 miles. The carbon build up might be heavier but by that time, the engine may not be worth changing spark plugs again anyway. I have seen Iridium go more than 150,000 miles and still looked good. A turbocharged or supercharged engine might be harder on spark plugs, but in most engines, if Iridium spark plugs were available, I'd use them and let them go a long time. By the time they needed changing again, I'd likely be replacing the vehicle.

CitizenOfDreams
08-08-2012, 07:29
In the real world, steel threads should never be threaded into aluminum without anti-seize compound.

On the other hand, in the same real world I never had a problem without anti-seize either. Of course it might have helped that I only used spark plugs of the correct length and torqued them according to manufacturer's recommendations.

GIockGuy24
08-08-2012, 07:45
On the other hand, in the same real world I never had a problem without anti-seize either. Of course it might have helped that I only used spark plugs of the correct length and torqued them according to manufacturer's recommendations.

I remember for years and years the spark plugs companies were dead against the use of anti-seize compound. Now with long life spark plugs that has changed but the problems were always there. The car companies recommended it long before the spark plug companies would agree. It's not just spark plugs, but for anything threaded into aluminum. In a lot of cars you can't use a torque wrench but that's not the only problem. One thing that can damage threads, even with anti-seize compound, is carbon build up on the spark plugs.

SC Tiger
08-08-2012, 10:45
If your referring to a diesel engine's injection pump, then yes. The lower sulfur content in the fuel means less lubricity which means more wear.

This is true for the fuel injectors also. Fortunately, most modern diesels have gone away from a standard injection pump and now either have a common rail fuel system such as the new International MaxxForce engine or the Detroit Diesel DD13/15 or the New Ford 6.7.

(A little older technology) Or electronic unit injection such as the Cat C15, Cat 3176, Cummins N14 or Detroit Diesel series 60.

Some modern diesels run the HEUI (Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injection) in which a high pressure oil pump supplies the necessary oil pressure to operate the fuel injector. Examples of these engines are the International/Ford 7.3 or the 6.0. Also the International 444 or the Cat 3126.

A few modern diesels are running the electronic unit pump (aka: EUP) which is a high pressure fuel injection pump that's camshaft driver, but has a pump and injection nozzle for each cylinder in the engine.

Some examples of engines that run this type of fuel system are the Mercedes MBE 4000/900 and the Mack ASET 427.

My point being is regardless of the fuel system, the lower sulfur content in the fuel will accelerate wear more so than the higher sulfur content fuels.

The higher sulfur fuels allowed for better lubricity than modern fuels. Some of this can be curbed with additives. However, modern diesel fuels have a much better cetane number than fuels of even ten years ago.

Cetane is liken to what octane is in gasoline but in reverse. (I.E. A lower cetane number would be like a higher octane level in gas.) In other words, cetane, like octane, is a fuels resistance to ignite.

Like octane in gas, cetane in diesel fuel is extremely important. A proper (minimum) cetane level is required to prevent preignition like a minimum octane level in gasoline.

There is no benefit to using a higher cetane number fuel than is specified by the engine's manufacturer. The ASTN Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils (D-975) states. "The cetane number requirements depend on engine design, size, nature of speed and load variations, and on starting and atmospheric conditions.

Increase in cetane number over values actually required does not materially improve engine performance. Accordingly, the cetane number specified should be as low as possible to insure maximum fuel availability." This quote underscores the imnportance of matching engine cetane requirements with fuel cetane number.

Diesel fuels with cetane number lower than minimum engine requirements can cause rough engine operation. They are more difficult to start, expecially in cold weather or at high altitudes. They accelerate lube oil sludge formation.

Many low cetane fuels increase engine deposits resulting in more smoke, increased exhaust emissions and greater engine wear.

Using fuels which meet engine operating requirements will improve cold starting, reduce smoke during start-up, improve fuel economy, reduce exhaust emissions, improve engine durability and reduce noise and vibration.

As a side note if anyone was wondering, These engine fuel requirements are published in the operating manual for each specific engine or vehicle.

Overall fuel quality and performance depend on the ratio of parafinic and aromatic hydrocarbons, the presence of sulfur, water, bacteria and other contaminants, and the fuel's resistance to oxidation.

The most important measure of fuel quality included API gravity, heat value (BTU content), distillation range and viscosity. Cleanliness and corrosion resistance are also important. For use in cold weather, cloud point and low temperature filter plugging point must receive serious consideration. Cetane number does not measure any of these characteristics.

More on Cetane:

U.S. diesel fuels are blends of distillate fuels and cracked petroleum hydrocarbons. The cracked hydrocarbons are low cetane compounds, largely due to their aromatic content. To meet the cetane number demands of most diesel engines, cetane improvers must be added to these blends.

The lower cetane cracked compounds are less responsive to these cetane improvers than the higher cetane paraffinic fuels.

Cetane improvers modify combustion in the engine. They encourage early and uniform ignition of the fuel. They discourage premature combustion and excessive rate of pressure increase in the combustion cycle.

Depending on the amount of high versus low cetane components in the base fuel, typically alkyl nitrate additive treatments can increase cetane by about 3 to 5 numbers (1:1000 treatment ratio). With high natural cetane premium base buels (containing a high percentage of parafins) and a 1:500 treatment ratio, cetane may increase up to a maximum of about 7 numbers.

Fuel quality and a little on additives:


Fuel quality is defined by the physical property specifications given in the ASTM Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils, ASTM D-975. Carbon residue, ash and sulfur increase engine wear and deposit formation.

Premium diesel fuels should have lower specifications for these properties. Additionally, premium diesel fuels should be more stable in storage than standard fuels, so the premium fuel quality you purchase won't degrade over time. This is the area where nitrate-containing cetane improvers cause problems.

More fuel retailers are introducing premium diesel fuels, touting high cetane number as the sole benchmark of fuel quality. Contrary to this assumption, a cetane number which is too high may cause too short an ignition delay period. This changes the timing of the pressure peak, resulting in loss of power.

When this happens, many of the performance problems associated with low cetane fuel will result. While the problems due to low cetane largely disappear after the engine warms up, with too high a cetane, these problems will persist even with a hot engine.

Cetane number is an important measure of ignition quality, or cold-starting ability. API gravity is an excellent indicator of heat value, which translates into fuel economy and power.

The distillation curve reflects the molecular weight distribution, with higher boiling fractions providing better lubrication, higher cetane - and more deposits.

Sulfur content is directly related to corrosion, this needs to be as low as possible. Oxidation stability, water, and sediment content affect the storage life of the oil. For winter use, low cloud point and low temperature filter plugging point are critical to uninterrupted operation.

Another side note:

To insure the best quality fuel for your diesel engines, follow the engine manufacturer's specifications for all these characteristics.



Unfortunately, low sulfur diesel fuel is all that's available anymore (for the most part) is here to stay, and is all that can be run in EPA 2007 or newer diesel engines (at least the ones that have all the emission controls intact.) :whistling:

Hopefully this sheds a little light on diesel fuel for you!

:wavey:

Yeah that clarified things. Essentially the lower-sulfer diesel increases the wear on the engine.

My understanding with the injection systems is that when the pump goes out, schrapnel goes down the line and destroys everything downstream to the injectors. It's supposedly related to moisture and corrosion in the fuel pump. You would know better than I would.

Like I said, one poster on here mentioned it and I don't know if the issue is very big or how much the repair is.

I also thought it cost $10K to replace the battery pack in a Prius but my neighbor had a dealership do it for around $3K.

SC Tiger
08-08-2012, 10:47
On the other hand, in the same real world I never had a problem without anti-seize either. Of course it might have helped that I only used spark plugs of the correct length and torqued them according to manufacturer's recommendations.

I'm thinking my truck had anti-sieze on the first set of plugs I pulled out. In any case the packets are like $1 each and it only takes two for 8 plugs (really 1 is enough). I install mine with a torque wrench too - always a good idea on aluminum heads.

SC Tiger
08-08-2012, 10:49
There are a few different ways you can go about minimizing the amount of debris. One is to use a product called Do All. It's a wax like form of lubricant for machine tools. You put it on the tap/cutter and it will collect the large stuff.

The other way is to stuff a rag into the cylinder and let the chips fall onto the rag. Then it can be sucked out with a special type of vacuum.

I use the first method and then use a bore scope to look into the cylinder after to make sure there isn't any large pieces in there. If there are, I use a small vacuum unit to remove them. When the cylinder is all clear, I blow it out with compressed air.

I haven't had a problem with this method yet. As for the second method, I don't recommend it. It can be done but if you've never tried to fish a rag into and back out of a engine through a spark plug hole you won't want to do it twice!

Yes, it's a big time design screw up on Ford's end and they did very little to make it right. As much as I like Ford, their lack of action with this problem was very disappointing.

Like I said in another thread - Fords tend to have wierd problems like this. Chevys just blow head gaskets, intake gaskets, and throw rods - you know, the normal stuff.

Not saying Chevy is better.

BTW - what is your opinion on the multi-electrode spark plugs like the Bosch +4? Seems to me like the spark is just going to take the path of least resistance and it won't make any real difference.

RDW
08-09-2012, 13:45
OEM Plugs.