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CA Escapee
08-06-2012, 07:59
The man who open carried into a Thornton, Colorado theater on 7/29 has responded to comments left for the article below.

http://www.9news.com/news/article/281079/339/Man-who-brought-gun-into-theater-defends-choice?odyssey=obinsite

Mr. Mapes' comment below was taken from the comment page.

Jim Mapes (http://www.facebook.com/Saxxonknight) ∑ Sparta High School (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sparta-High-School/114425945240309)
"Due to legal matters still in process, I’d normally not respond. However, due to brevity the article & video leaves a few key things not addressed. Since they have been stated by myself with attorney present during the interviews, I’ll restate here to hopefully put to rest some pointless debate.

I carried openly principally because its 90-100 almost every day right now and 70-80 at night, that gun (or any full size semi-auto pistol) is ill-concealable with anything less than a jacket. Meaning it would stick out the bottom or have a very conspicuous bulge in my clothing that makes it obvious I am carrying. Your right to open carry is based on the 19th century notion that only bad guys hide their weapons. Aside from permitted carry, this is still true, virtually no criminal will holster carry in front of you – because they l
ose ... surprise. Also, open carry is a deterrent; concealed carry only allows you to respond to an attack. The entire “be sensitive & leave it at home” PC influence is just a variation of a “no guns” attitude – which contributed to the carnage at Century on July 20th. Your phobias are your issue, my carrying is an acknowledgement that the police are most often not present at the start of a criminal event and I am responsible for my own protection.

Gander Mountain is 100-150 feet from Cinnebarre, Holmes bought at least one of his guns there. Just perhaps, while formulating his plan he saw someone like I carrying and going into Cinnebarre – I know others who do since they have allowed firearms there. Seeing this, Holmes may have written that off as a target and chose instead a place that had a posted “no guns” policy knowing that reduced the chances someone present would be armed to fight back. Most important: the shooting happened at Century –Cinnemar; not Cinnebarre.

Armed response

It’s really all moot, none of us were there, but there is no doubt that some of the men present who sacrificed themselves to save their girlfriends had the guts to act, if they had the means, to fight back. People will always debate this, because its natural to want to change what happened.

If someone open carried into the theatre and Holmes saw them, he’d perhaps have changed his plans though this might only have meant going next door. Among hundreds of patrons, it’s unlikely he’d be able to follow them to know where they sat.

Holmes just bought his firearms, and by all accounts had little to no practice. There is no evidence that he was capable of well aimed return fire, in fact the high injury vs fatality ratio indicates he was just spraying bullets or missing targets and hitting others.

Body armor reduces the lethality of a hit, it doesn’t reduce the impact much. Body hits on armor break ribs, bruise and knock the wind out of you. Like being hit with a bat or hammer; multiple successive hits would have knocked him down.

Tear gas is an inconvenience, not an incapacitant. When your choice is wiping snot, or fighting back against a deadly attack – you won’t notice the snot. Plus if a person was acting from the outset of the attack, the gas area would be so limited as to be a non-factor.

Lighting in a “dark theatre” is like a half moon night. Plenty of visibility to see a lone gunman standing in the aisle and his muzzle flashes. On the other hand, the armed responder’s first shots will have surprise – a couple of hits stunning him, and if that person is within close enough range, use that to close on him and continue to hit him till they can get close enough to ensure an incapacitating shot (non armored area).

The gunman was in a theater, a place designed where every seat in the house has an unobstructed view to the screen. Holmes was standing near the screen. An armed responder has the potential within a few steps from any point to have line of fire over the heads of people in the rows in front of them – who will all be getting as low & small as possible anyway.

An armed responder at Century would have saved lives. How many depends on where they were when the first shot came out (Homes fired a round from shotgun into the ceiling. A competent CCW holder within their “point blank” range (for this purpose defined as all hits on torso sized area, for me I consider this to be 60 feet/20 yards) could have had their gun out and firing back while Holmes was tossing the gas. Likely he would have been the only casualty if so.

If they were further away and needed to close or move to get a clear shot, then Holmes would have had time to empty his shotgun into the crowd; statistically with the number of patrons he had a 1-2% chance of incapacitating one armed responder randomly placed among them. Armed responder has him cold as he transitions from shotgun to rifle, easily 3-5 shots unopposed. If armed responder is wounded, but gets off at least one shot, let alone a hit, Holmes is now acting defensively if not actively leaving the scene.

Any way you slice it, an armed response would have altered the outcome. There is no scenario other than an anti-gun phobic’s that it would have made it worse. Once he knows he’s under attack, Holmes has to focus on his attacker rather than more victims - lives are saved

The point is, Century made the law abiding into defenseless targets – there were no police or guards there to compensate for this and has been pointed out, it’s too expensive to do so. I will never patronize their business; their policy was Holmes’ accomplice. Cinnebarre however, I will; assuming everything gets settled here. They respect my right to defend myself and others from criminal assault. If you don’t like that fact that someone in the audience at Cinnebarre may be carrying, go to Century – you’ll feel safer, right?

Of course, that’s the problem. You may feel safer, but you won’t be. That’s the difference in mindset between gun owners and those with a bias against lawful gun ownership."

cowboy1964
08-06-2012, 08:30
So was open carry legal where he was busted, or isn't it? That's all I want to know. He can chatter all day long.

Hour13
08-06-2012, 08:30
Overall, a very intelligent & well written statement.

Nice.

Patchman
08-06-2012, 09:18
He lost me at sentence 1, paragraph 1, when he whined that he had to OC because it's HOT HOT HOT where's he's at...?

Like where I'm at it doesn't get to be 95-degrees and 95-percent humidity? And my everyday CCW G19 is smaller than his gun? And they don't have AC in the movie theater he was visiting?

Glock_9mm
08-06-2012, 09:20
Checked my local paper...didn't see any mention of this article, hmmm :whistling:
As stated above, a very well thought out and well written response.
Scott

Patchman
08-06-2012, 09:23
As for Holmes, we don't know there were NO armed CCWer in the theater. We just know no one stepped up.

CA Escapee
08-06-2012, 09:26
So was open carry legal where he was busted, or isn't it? That's all I want to know. He can chatter all day long.

Open carry is legal in Colorado unless a city generates its own law prohibiting it. Thornton Colorado has no such law prohibiting it.

In earlier articles Mr. Mapes stated he has OC'd in that very theater many times before.

Bill

CA Escapee
08-06-2012, 09:34
He lost me at sentence 1, paragraph 1, when he whined that he had to OC because it's HOT HOT HOT where's he's at...?

Like where I'm at it doesn't get to be 95-degrees and 95-percent humidity? And my everyday CCW G19 is smaller than his gun? And they don't have AC in the movie theater he was visiting?

If Mr. Mapes said it was hot, I imagine he felt it was hot. I would imagine Mr. Mapes would agree with you that it's hot where you are, too. I've known people that sweat profusely at 72į.

Bill

Glenn E. Meyer
08-06-2012, 09:43
carried openly principally because its 90-100 almost every day right now and 70-80 at night, that gun (or any full size semi-auto pistol) is ill-concealable with anything less than a jacket

Living in TX, that is just baloney. As far as his multiple hits strategy, perhaps. It was not a guarantee at North Hollywood or the Tyler Courthouse. Yes, we should carry and be trained but that part of his story is irrelevant to the OC issue. One can easily carry a Glock 19 sized gun in hot weather.

Would a mentally ill shooter be necessarily deterred by OC. We don't know Holmes mental state. People have attacked courthouses, police stations and groups of police. All obviously armed.

OC may have been legal but immediately after a rampage, discretion might just be sensible - esp. since his rationale that he HAS to OC is incorrect.

FireForged
08-06-2012, 10:00
A well written response and I agree with him.

I will say that I dont really buy the "its too hot to conceal carry". I would be more inclined to believe that he simply wanted to OC, which is as good a reason as any.

CA Escapee
08-06-2012, 10:06
A well written response and I agree with him.

I will say that I dont really buy the "its too hot to conceal carry". I would be more inclined to believe that he simply wanted to OC, which is as good a reason as any.

Mr. Mapes has stated that he's OC'd there in the past.

Bill

Chris Chris
08-06-2012, 10:12
A well written response and I agree with him.

I will say that I dont really buy the "its too hot to conceal carry". I would be more inclined to believe that he simply wanted to OC, which is as good a reason as any.

Just MHO, but given the timing and circumstances it was a poorly chosen decision... whether it was legal or not. I live in Florida and know what heat and humidity is. A 16 shot 9mm is no problem to conceal under a loosely fitting tee shirt. With everybody carrying cell phones and Ipads these days, you'd be amazed at how many 'average' citizens completely IGNORE any bulge on under a shirt.

I don't agree with his OC deterring criminals/nut jobs. It just means they shoot you as soon as they see you.

I believe... and glean some of this from his response... that he simply wanted to make a statement. OK, he made his statement. Now he has to pay his lawyer and go through whetever legal processes are in progress.

Tucking the gun under a loose fitting shirt would have still left him armed... made him more discreet... and avoided all of this.

Patchman
08-06-2012, 10:12
If Mr. Mapes said it was hot, I imagine he felt it was hot. I would imagine Mr. Mapes would agree with you that it's hot where you are, too. I've known people that sweat profusely at 72į.

Bill

OK. Some people feel a chill when it's 70-degrees. They need to wear a light jacket. A light jacket would impede their presentation. So they should OC?

Does Mr. Mapes also OC in the winter time, or only during those days in the summer when it gets really hot (for him)?

Patchman
08-06-2012, 10:16
Mr. Mapes has stated that he's OC'd there in the past.

Bill

Then he should just say he's OC in the past because this is what he believes in. Don't make excuses (oh, weather was too hot...!) about why he needed to do it THIS time.



No AC in his car?
No AC in the movie theater?

CA Escapee
08-06-2012, 10:23
Then he should just say he's OC in the past because this is what he believes in. Don't make excuses (oh, weather was too hot...!) about why he needed to do it THIS time.



No AC in his car?
No AC in the movie theater?

You'd have to talk to Mr. Mapes about his reasoning.

Bill

Patchman
08-06-2012, 10:35
You'd have to talk to Mr. Mapes about his reasoning.

Bill

Yes, but you're defending what he wrote, so I assumed you had more insight...

series1811
08-06-2012, 10:40
Tucking the gun under a loose fitting shirt would have still left him armed... made him more discreet... and avoided all of this.

Assuming he wanted to avoid all this, which I don't.

Wolfdad
08-06-2012, 11:00
If Mr. Mapes had the legal right to OC, that should be the end of it, and yes a LEO can talk to him to get a general reading of his mental state. If Mr. Mapes appeard fine, he should have been left alone. The law is the law and must be applied without prejudice.

CA Escapee
08-06-2012, 11:10
Yes, but you're defending what he wrote, so I assumed you had more insight...

Defending what he wrote, or presenting another possiblity?

I find it rather interesting that people from other states are jumping in screaming "BS", it's not hot in Thornton, Colorado. Their reasoning is it's way hotter and more humid where I live, so Mr. Mapes can't possibly say it's hot.

I stated that if Mr. Mapes felt it was hot, then OK, Mr. Mapes thought it was hot.

Bill

pipedreams
08-06-2012, 11:25
If Mr. Mapes had the legal right to OC, that should be the end of it, and yes a LEO can talk to him to get a general reading of his mental state. If Mr. Mapes appeard fine, he should have been left alone. The law is the law and must be applied without prejudice.
:agree:

scccdoc
08-06-2012, 11:40
I conceal in HOT S Carolina, no problem. Did he get his 15 minutes of fame? DOC

TheExplorer
08-06-2012, 11:59
Did he get his 15 minutes of fame? DOC

:rofl:Just about to type that. Couldn't you CCW for a few weeks after the tragedy? I mean, come on. I know it's legal, but use some common sense.

jph02
08-06-2012, 12:41
Did he get his 15 minutes of fame? DOC:rofl:Just about to type that. Couldn't you CCW for a few weeks after the tragedy? I mean, come on. I know it's legal, but use some common sense.
This.

...
Armed response

Itís really all moot, none of us were there...
I agree, it's all moot because none of us were there. So why does Mapes go on for 8 paragraphs to explain how an armed person in the audience could have made a difference? :shakehead:

H&K 4 LIFE
08-06-2012, 13:12
I do not agree with Mr. Mapes that OC somehow prevents the violent criminal acts of another. Madmen intent to do harm will find a way to do harm. They do not fear your openly carried handgun as it is not a magic talisman that wards off evil. I also do not agree with the notion that a fullsize pistol cannot be comfortably/adequately concealed under warm weather clothing and that this somehow necessitates the need to openly carry it.

While I do agree with his choice to fight against an active shooter if possible I also think the lengthy post of his above demonstrates he has foolheartedly made an attempt to wrap up every single aspect of doing so into a nice neat little package. We know that using a firearm in a self-defense situation is, by it's very nature, a chaos event. Not everything can be planned for beforehand or the consequences of particular individual actions predicted. To my mind he is concentrating solely on the assumption that he will be victorious while not recognizing the full weight of the odds he is up against, possibility that he may instead be shot/killed or that he may accidentally injure an innocent third party through his actions. These are not things to be ignored.

While I do support the right to open carry, in the end I believe Mr. Mapes could have realized that although he usually legally openly carries his handgun, given the nature of the recent event in that Colorado movie theater, it would probably be best to legally conceal his sidearm instead when going there. In doing so, he could have remained armed as well as inconspicuous. No one is saying "leave the gun at home" but rather, be conscious of the possible thought processes of those non-gun people around you and the subsequent reaction your displayed handgun may garner.

I believe this is what any mature, rational thinking and responsible armed citizen should conclude as being the prudent course of action.

Misty02
08-06-2012, 14:05
Just curious, for those in states where OC is permitted and for those that regularly OC, when do most people believe would be appropriate to OC again? A couple more weeks, a month, two months, six months a year?

As respect this story, I do believe it was worth investigating once the call was received. However, it seemed apparent the establishment allowed OC and there was no firearm restriction. After the investigation the movie goer could have been asked to leave if the theater didnít want him there.

It just seems odd to arrest someone for something that is legal, that he has done before in that same location and that is not restricted by the owner.

.

Patchman
08-06-2012, 14:06
I agree, it's all moot because none of us were there. So why does Mapes go on for 8 paragraphs to explain how an armed person in the audience could have made a difference? :shakehead:

^^^^This.

As my mother used to say after I screwed something up and tried to explain the many reasons why it was not my fault... she'd say "Patch, one excuse is better than many."

Misty02
08-06-2012, 14:15
Just curious, for those in states where OC is permitted and for those that regularly OC, when do most people believe would be appropriate to OC again? A couple more weeks, a month, two months, six months a year?

As respect this story, I do believe it was worth investigating once the call was received. However, it seemed apparent the establishment allowed OC and there was no firearm restriction. After the investigation the movie goer could have been asked to leave if the theater didnít want him there.

It just seems odd to arrest someone for something that is legal, that he has done before in that same location and that is not restricted by the owner.

.

wprebeck
08-06-2012, 14:20
If open carry prevents crime - why do so many cops get shot at every year?


Further, the gentleman is completely wrong about his assessment with how rounds impact body armor. This has been discussed on here before, with people who have been shot chiming in. To add to that - a clerk got shot at the store where I work off duty (happened a couple of hours after I'd left). She was hit in the leg, just below her knee. She wasn't even aware she HAD been shot, until the bad guy had fled the scene and she noticed blood. Adrenaline and other methods used by your body (auditory exclusion) have a way of helping you get through a situation without focusing on certain things.

Misty02
08-06-2012, 14:37
double post

cowboy1964
08-06-2012, 14:40
I have to see definitive news either way about whether or not OC is legal there. From the sound of the article it is not.

H&K 4 LIFE
08-06-2012, 14:49
Just curious, for those in states where OC is permitted and for those that regularly OC, when do most people believe would be appropriate to OC again? A couple more weeks, a month, two months, six months a year?...

I don't think there is any concrete blanket answer to that question.

Misty02
08-06-2012, 14:55
I don't think there is any concrete blanket answer to that question.

So pretty much forever; and the longer time passes and people continue to abstain the harder it will be to start again. I understand about being prudent, considerate and all that, but ÖÖÖ..

.

Chris Chris
08-06-2012, 15:03
Just curious, for those in states where OC is permitted and for those that regularly OC, when do most people believe would be appropriate to OC again? A couple more weeks, a month, two months, six months a year?

As respect this story, I do believe it was worth investigating once the call was received. However, it seemed apparent the establishment allowed OC and there was no firearm restriction. After the investigation the movie goer could have been asked to leave if the theater didnít want him there.

It just seems odd to arrest someone for something that is legal, that he has done before in that same location and that is not restricted by the owner.

.

Just because it is legal does not mean it is wise, appropriate, or responsible. Under the circmstances present at the time , Mr, Mapes whiffed on all three and struck out.

Just because you have the right to wander around with an exposed handgun flapping on you hip does not mean that it is a smart thing to do. I'm not going to get into the OC debate... other than to say I think it is tactically stupid.

The Constitutional right to Bear Arms (redefined by state laws) does assume that the carrier/bearer will exercise a degree of resonsiblity while carrying.

Flagrantly shoving OC in the face of the public genereates about the same response as the homosexual "kiss in" at Chick Fillet.... nothing positive comes out of that. It just looks like an "in your face" and turns many people off.

Mapes had the opportunity to conceal the gun at a time and place where a concealed gun would be the most appropriate/responsible/commonsense method of carry.

He chose not to. I assume his lawyer is charging him a hefy fee to defend his stupidity.

Misty02
08-07-2012, 02:11
Just because it is legal does not mean it is wise, appropriate, or responsible. Under the circmstances present at the time , Mr, Mapes whiffed on all three and struck out.

Just because you have the right to wander around with an exposed handgun flapping on you hip does not mean that it is a smart thing to do. I'm not going to get into the OC debate... other than to say I think it is tactically stupid.

The Constitutional right to Bear Arms (redefined by state laws) does assume that the carrier/bearer will exercise a degree of resonsiblity while carrying.

Flagrantly shoving OC in the face of the public genereates about the same response as the homosexual "kiss in" at Chick Fillet.... nothing positive comes out of that. It just looks like an "in your face" and turns many people off.

Mapes had the opportunity to conceal the gun at a time and place where a concealed gun would be the most appropriate/responsible/commonsense method of carry.

He chose not to. I assume his lawyer is charging him a hefy fee to defend his stupidity.

I understand Chris. Iím the queen of ďJust because itís legal doesnít mean its right and just because itís illegal doesnít mean itís wrongĒ. Iím also in agreement that it wasnít a wise move on his part. Being wrong, inappropriate, irresponsible and unwise doesnít always translate into illegal either. I wasnít there so I donít know if there was an attitude to go along with the OC, if there was, then those would be things that get added (in my mind) to Mr. Mapes.

I was thinking beyond this particular case though, Mr. Mapes had a license to carry concealed and thus had a choice; there are others out there that donít. There are people in other states that OC because they donít have a license, they are allowed to carry in that fashion without one. Some may be able to afford getting one, some may not.

Are we going to tell the people that can legally OC but canít legally CC that they canít carry at all until an undetermined amount of time passes because if they offend the sensitivity of others theyíll be arrested, humiliated and lose what little they have in legal fees for doing something that is perfectly legal in their state?

Not everyone is as fortunate as many of us, have they suddenly lost their right to bear arms in a way they did before this tragedy?

.

Snowman92D
08-07-2012, 05:15
Flagrantly shoving OC in the face of the public genereates about the same response as the homosexual "kiss in" at Chick Fillet.... nothing positive comes out of that. It just looks like an "in your face" and turns many people off.


Yep...the effect is exactly the same, and most proponents of 24/7 carry by our citizen defensive shooters understand that. But if you try to point that out to those OC activists who desperately want to be the center of attention, they go into an immediate rage.

I wish so badly that those types of OC activists would either grow up, or get the requisite psychiatric guidance needed to prevent this sort of issue from continually being shoved up everyone else's noses. We have reached a point in our nation's history when we truly need as many armed and responsible citizens in our communities as possible.

series1811
08-07-2012, 05:50
To me, carrying a visible gun into a movie theater in Colorado after a shooting in one, in which dozens of people were killed and wounded by a nutjob, shows such bad judgement, that that alone indicates somebody who the world would probably be better off if he had never bought a gun.

You can be legal and incredibly stupid, at the same time, as this guy has so aptly demonstrated.

Brucev
08-07-2012, 07:03
Re: OP. Idiot. He should have stayed home. Like it or not, such people do the 2nd Amendment no favors. Simply not in the least persuaded by his ramble.

Stevekozak
08-07-2012, 07:11
I don't open carry (can't in the state I currently live in) but support ppls rights to do so. I understand that a horrible tragedy occured in CO. We all understand it. But it shouldn't curtail people's rights or how they choose to excercise them. Frankly, if I owned a theater there, I would host an open carry night. Invite everyone open carry there that night to show solidarity in the face of the tragedy. If I were an unarmed person, it would give me some feeling of safety knowing that there were armed folks around me that might be able to respond if some nutcase decided to start shooting up the citizenry.

Bren
08-07-2012, 08:15
It's too hot and his gun is too big to conceal? I have more than 1 gun and several Hawaiian shirts for just that purpose. I've been carrying all summer with an OWB safariland holster with a thumbbreak and have never had a problem keeping my gun concealed.

I don't open carry (can't in the state I currently live in) but support ppls rights to do so.
I support the right to do so - I just don't support the choice to do so at times and places where the gun is going to alarm people for no good reason. "it's hot and I don't have a suitable CCW gun" is not what I call a good reason.

Gunnut 45/454
08-07-2012, 08:44
Good job Mr. Mapes! Now all you whinners can stop whinning! He was legally OCing there was no need for the MWAG call except thats what the anti's will do cause as we all know they want all your guns to be taken away! Less we forget the SCOTUS has said we have the right to selfdefense, he has the right to OC in CO! USE THE RIGHT OR LOOSE IT!:supergrin:

Bruce M
08-07-2012, 08:50
In addition to seeming very confident in his decision to carry openly, he also seems very confident in his skills, defining point blank range for him out to twenty yards. He also seems very confident in the ability of other armed people to be able to properly assess a situation and act properly under stress.

I have a continued fear that if there were multiple people carrying guns in a situation such as that, that some may not be paying total attention to the subject before he starts shooting and that as others begin to engage him some who did not see the beginning of the incident might have difficulty determining who was a subject and who was an armed carrier providing a response. Which is not to suggest that I am against allowing people to carry concealed in a theatre, but rather I am merely not as confident as is he that there might still have been a loss of innocent life were people carrying in the theatre.

series1811
08-07-2012, 09:17
Good job Mr. Mapes! Now all you whinners can stop whinning! He was legally OCing there was no need for the MWAG call except thats what the anti's will do cause as we all know they want all your guns to be taken away! Less we forget the SCOTUS has said we have the right to selfdefense, he has the right to OC in CO! USE THE RIGHT OR LOOSE IT!:supergrin:

Wasn't Holmes legally open carrying right up until the point he decided to start shooting? Good thing nobody hurt his feelings by calling in a MWAG report.

Mapes didn't break any laws except the law of common sense which often has high penalties attached to its violation.

TBO
08-07-2012, 11:32
Good job Mr. Mapes! Now all you whinners can stop whinning! He was legally OCing there was no need for the MWAG call except thats what the anti's will do cause as we all know they want all your guns to be taken away! Less we forget the SCOTUS has said we have the right to selfdefense, he has the right to OC in CO! USE THE RIGHT OR LOOSE IT!:supergrin:
Please allow my observation: Use it right, or lose it.

jmho

Glenn E. Meyer
08-07-2012, 15:42
It is 100 deg. here. I have returned home after carrying a Glock and extra mag under a floppy shirt over an UnderArmour T-shirt. I wandered through folks in the supermarket, Walgren's, CVS and ate in a Panera bread. It was full of Moms and business people.

I did not panic crowds or get arrested. No one gave me weird looks or yell GUN!

If you start your analysis with a false premise - the rest is moot.

It would be better to say that it was your right and you don't care if you offend others. BTW, I don't buy that argument - it is more ego than RKBA.

You don't care if the cops come to chat. There was some guy in Ohio, who got busted in the movies with what looks like a small 'tactical' gun pack. He went to sit in the back row 30 minutes early. The cops were called. He said he wanted a tac position to defend others at Batman.

I am also sure having a fair amount of training that I can guaranteed a precision head shot at distance, under fire, withe screaming people, gas, smoke and being scared poop-pants. :rofl:

Yeah, in matchs, I can make the difficult head shot around no shoots and put two touch rounds in the noggin. Of course, I can do that in a horror show. :whistling:

Oh, if you are in the theatre and a guy comes in OC mode, you go to condition Three Cheers for the RKBA or do you plan how to shoot him?

DeLo
08-08-2012, 11:55
Valid points but the OCing because of heat is BS... I live in FL and carry a 21 IWB holster. Its very do able. The fact that I would never OC is a matter of having an element of surprise if I never need to defend myself. Surprise is a tactical advantage that I would not forfeit in a scenario in which I needed to use a handgun to preserve my life.

Gunnut 45/454
08-08-2012, 13:43
series1811
I would love all you decenters to please explain to me why does any American who has the basic right of selfdefense have to give up that right at anytime or place where it might offend someone? Cause thats what you all are saying. He was legally OCing his choice -if you don't like it to freaking bad( I see most flapping there gums are from non-OC states)! As Mistyo2 stated -how long must we give up a right to appease those that don't want us exercising that right anyway? How long? I say never!:supergrin:

series1811
08-08-2012, 14:19
series1811
I would love all you decenters to please explain to me why does any American who has the basic right of selfdefense have to give up that right at anytime or place where it might offend someone? Cause thats what you all are saying. He was legally OCing his choice -if you don't like it to freaking bad( I see most flapping there gums are from non-OC states)! As Mistyo2 stated -how long must we give up a right to appease those that don't want us exercising that right anyway? How long? I say never!:supergrin:

To me, it's like the Westboro Baptist Church people. Yes, they have a right to protest at veteran's funerals. But, it's people who behave like that who cause rights to be curtailed, rather than expanded, as has already started to happen.

http://www.ktka.com/mostpopular/story/Bill-restricts-protesting-at-military-funerals/71QPhcRza02mK9QTT6yZSA.cspx

It's sad that we needed a law where common decency should have sufficed.

Some people are their own worst enemies, regardless of their right to be so. Mapes is in that group. :)

Chris Chris
08-08-2012, 14:56
series1811
I would love all you decenters to please explain to me why does any American who has the basic right of selfdefense have to give up that right at anytime or place where it might offend someone? Cause thats what you all are saying. He was legally OCing his choice -if you don't like it to freaking bad( I see most flapping there gums are from non-OC states)! As Mistyo2 stated -how long must we give up a right to appease those that don't want us exercising that right anyway? How long? I say never!:supergrin:

If OC is the only legal option for a law-abiding citizen to travel armed in the jurisdiction they live in, then I support OC. If it's the only legal option, then go for it.

However, if the concealed carry option legally exists, then someone who chooses to flaunt open carry is not very intelligent... and very likely a belligerent activist. People like that only give fodder to the anti-gunners.... and there are a pile of them out there, including the MSN. The more those jerks pile onto us handgun owners the tougher it gets for all of us.

Intelligent armed citizens should be just that - intelligent.
Sadly, some or more interested in 'making their point' than they are with simply being effectively armed in a discreet manner that attracts no attention, but allows them to be armed.

Why would any intelligent individual choose to attract attention while they are armed? What possible 'positive' purpose could that serve?

Do they require the attention because of some inner problems? I note that someone said that Mapes said his 'point blank distance' was 20 yards. I'd love to see him deliver that accurately on a target on demand.

I've been an instructor off and on for 40 years (military, LE and civilian contractor) and still compete in action pistol matches. I have a wall full of trophies from the IDPA World Championship, down through Nationals, Regionals, and State Championships. I've got a 50 yard range in my backyard and bust caps anytime I want.

Point blank 20 yards? Under sudden stress? I wouldn't claim that. Reality tends to screw up even the best plans.

Mr. Mapes did not engage in intelligent actions under the circumstances existing at the time. I live in a small town called Realville... I doubt that Mr. Mapes is one of my neighbors.