Which part of Revelation 18 does not fit USA? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Kozel
08-07-2012, 20:35
Which part of Revelation 18 does not fit USA?

I cannot find it.

Posted same question on Christian forum. The only thing I got was “we do not kill saints”. Then I got banned from that forum.

Oh well. What about 60 millions + of unborn killed that did not sin. What were they killed for?

Oh yeah. I forgot, they are “fetuses” they are not people.

Animal Mother
08-07-2012, 21:08
Which part of Revelation 18 does not fit USA? What part of it, absent twisting and "interpreting" the words, does fit it?
I cannot find it.

Posted same question on Christian forum. The only thing I got was “we do not kill saints”. Then I got banned from that forum.

Oh well. What about 60 millions + of unborn killed that did not sin. What were they killed for?

Oh yeah. I forgot, they are “fetuses” they are not people.Excellent point.

Kozel
08-07-2012, 22:45
What part of it, absent twisting and "interpreting" the words, does fit it?
.

Each and every one.

Vic Hays
08-07-2012, 22:54
Revelation 18 is more of an overall view of the politics and religion of the world.

Revelation 13 is a much better fit.

The symbolism of a beast is a nation. The symbolism of horns is related to power. The symbolism of the sea is related to the churning of politics within the kingdoms of the earth. The Lamb is of course symbolic of Jesus.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.

This beast or nation comes up out of the earth where there were no kingdoms unlike the other beasts which come up from the sea. The two horns like a Lamb represent civil and religious liberty. This liberty is then rescinded which is why it begins to speak like a dragon symbolizing the principles of the devil.

Animal Mother
08-08-2012, 00:37
Each and every one. Here's where you'd offer evidence in support of your assertion. Why is it that people are constantly reading parallels to the current world situation into Revelation but none of the terrible consequences ever come to pass?

Tilley
08-08-2012, 01:11
Why is it that people are constantly reading parallels to the current world situation into Revelation but none of the terrible consequences ever come to pass?Becausesome of the terrible consequences have yet to occur.

Tilley
08-08-2012, 01:14
The symbolism of a beast is a nation. The symbolism of horns is related to power. The symbolism of the sea is related to the churning of politics within the kingdoms of the earth. The Lamb is of course symbolic of Jesus.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.

This beast or nation comes up out of the earth where there were no kingdoms unlike the other beasts which come up from the sea. The two horns like a Lamb represent civil and religious liberty. This liberty is then rescinded which is why it begins to speak like a dragon symbolizing the principles of the devil.Nice one Vic. I'd have bet money you would have thrown the Catholic Church under the bus here.:wavey:

NMG26
08-08-2012, 03:38
Nice one Vic. I'd have bet money you would have thrown the Catholic Church under the bus here.:wavey:

So Bible believers become America haters through the doctrine of the love of God.

America is evil and this world is not our home.

The philosophy of the world being evil is the worst part of the Christian religious mindset. It encourages hatred of this world, other religious groups (Catholicism), and all humanity all under the guise of the love of God.

God hates us.

Christians will never know true liberty under such an enslaving, cruel, domineering doctrine of self hate. When you hate this world, you hate yourself.

Animal Mother
08-08-2012, 03:46
Becausesome of the terrible consequences have yet to occur.

That seems odd, considering they've been imminent for the last 2000 years. Which of these passages which are today seen as fitting the US haven't been equally valid with regard to past nations over that time period? Do they fit the US today better than the England of the 19th century or the Portugal of the 17th?

muscogee
08-08-2012, 04:54
Revelation 18 means Saddam Hussein will be routed after his invasion of Kuwait.

Kingarthurhk
08-08-2012, 06:34
So Bible believers become America haters through the doctrine of the love of God.

America is evil and this world is not our home.

The philosophy of the world being evil is the worst part of the Christian religious mindset. It encourages hatred of this world, other religious groups (Catholicism), and all humanity all under the guise of the love of God.

God hates us.

Christians will never know true liberty under such an enslaving, cruel, domineering doctrine of self hate. When you hate this world, you hate yourself.

No one is saying that we hate the United States. It is simply a prophecy about what it is going to become. It is going to go from a land of freedom to opression. The United States has had very Christian principles like the First Amendment. Once that is put aside, it will fail to be a land of freedom.

muscogee
08-08-2012, 06:56
Becausesome of the terrible consequences have yet to occur.

Except for Jesus coming back, everything written in Revelations had happened by the time it was canonized. Since Jesus is 1900 years late and we haven't heard anything from him lately, it's highly unlikely he's coming back.

Geko45
08-08-2012, 07:39
Revelation 18 means Saddam Hussein will be routed after his invasion of Kuwait.

Check!

<-- Operation Desert Shield/Storm

Vic Hays
08-08-2012, 10:23
Nice one Vic. I'd have bet money you would have thrown the Catholic Church under the bus here.:wavey:

The Catholic Church is quite capable of throwing herself under the bus.

Since the Catholic Church works in cahoots with and manipulates the political systems she is indeed also accountable.

Religion mixed with politics is a form of idolatry and is seen by God as fornication. Those that engage in this will be judged.

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying to me, Come here; I will show to you the judgment of the great whore that sits on many waters:
17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

However, that is ancient history. the alliance that we must battle in out time is the Image to the Beast set up by the two horned beast of Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:14 And deceives them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
13:15 And he had power to give life to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Speak and cause are legal terms relating to making and enforcing laws.

SDGlock23
08-08-2012, 15:26
I remember reading of Dimitru Dudaman and an angel of the Lord told him Rev. 18 and Jeremiah 51 were about the United States. Fits like a glove!

Vic Hays
08-08-2012, 22:02
I remember reading of Dimitru Dudaman and an angel of the Lord told him Rev. 18 and Jeremiah 51 were about the United States. Fits like a glove!


Revelation 18:2 And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.
18:3 For by the wine of the wrath of her fornication all the nations are fallen; and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth waxed rich by the power of her wantonness.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

Are you going to come out of her? Where will you go?

The cage of unclean birds is in reference to false doctrines that people prefer to the Truth.

Jeremiah 5:27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
5:28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yes, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

Vic Hays
08-11-2012, 19:57
Perhaps I was not clear. If Revelation 18 is about the United States being Babylon and God is calling His faithful out of Babylon then what country is God calling you to?

Revelation 18 does not fit the United States at all although the US could be one of the nations that are committing spiritual fornication with Babylon the Great.

Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.

Kozel
08-12-2012, 15:21
Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
.

Sounds like USA in every word.

Every nation drank from sewer pipe of holywood and all merchants of the world got USDs to become rich.

The “come out” part sounds like “raptura” in Latin or “cut up” in English.



.


.

Vic Hays
08-12-2012, 15:24
Sounds like USA in every word.

The US is a nation. All nations have drunk from Babylon's cup and are in rebellion against God. Babylon is not a nation. The name Babylon means confusion and in this context means spiritual confusion.

Kozel
08-12-2012, 17:25
The name Babylon means confusion and in this context means spiritual confusion.

Must be very confusing for the rest of the world to see the great “christian” nation spilling filth from Hollywood pipe, killing tens of millions of unborn and funding the same all over the world, pushing sodomite rights, starting wars with everybody who does not want to sell oil in USDs or bananas at set prices.
At the same time sending missionaries all over the world.

I would be very confused if I was outside of US and not brainwashed into believing that US is “force for good” everywhere.



.

Vic Hays
08-12-2012, 17:36
Must be very confusing for the rest of the world to see the great “christian” nation spilling filth from Hollywood pipe, killing tens of millions of unborn and funding the same all over the world, pushing sodomite rights, starting wars with everybody who does not want to sell oil in USDs or bananas at set prices.
At the same time sending missionaries all over the world.

I would be very confused if I was outside of US and not brainwashed into believing that US is “force for good” everywhere.

.

That is correct. Religion and politics is never a force for good.

The reason why is that satan claims politics as his. That does not mean, however, that everyone in politics is in cahoots with satan.

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Kozel
08-12-2012, 17:47
That is correct. Religion and politics is never a force for good.

The reason why is that satan claims politics as his. That does not mean, however, that everyone in politics is in cahoots with satan.

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

So. You are saying that since all kingdoms of the world are under Satan’s control then US must be too?
Makes sense. Why would he control all the rest of them and missed the biggest one?

Vic Hays
08-12-2012, 19:04
So. You are saying that since all kingdoms of the world are under Satan’s control then US must be too?
Makes sense. Why would he control all the rest of them and missed the biggest one?

You are correct.

The US fits Revelation 13, the two horned beast from the sea. Beasts are symbols used to represent kingdoms in the Bible.

The book of Daniel also contains these beasts.

Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Some of the beasts are named in the Book of Daniel. Others must be figured out by their progression.

Consider the following description of the rise of the Greek Empire. Alexander the Great was the first king. After his death the kingdom was broken up into four parts by his four generals.

Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Vic Hays
08-12-2012, 19:41
The two books Daniel and Revelation link together.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12 identifies the Great Red Dragon as satan.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

But we can see that the Great Red dragons heads are actually some of the kingdoms of the world in sequence. satan works through the politics of this world.

Revelation 17:9 Here is the mind that has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains, whereon the woman sits.
17:10 And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes he must remain [only] a little while.
17:11 And the beast that was and is not, he also is an eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into destruction.
17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have not yet received a kingdom, but receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.

Vic Hays
08-13-2012, 11:19
What is required to understand which empires and kingdoms the Bible is speaking of requires a frame of reference.

One of the heads of the Red Dragon is the Roman Empire. This can be seen as the Roman Empire was the empire in power when Jesus was born.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up to God, and to his throne.

Vic Hays
08-13-2012, 12:45
Now that we have established that the Roman Empire was one of the heads of the Red Dragon it is possible to trace the rest of the beasts and heads.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

From the Roman Empire to a power that received the seat power and authority from the Dragon.

The seat of the Dragon at the time of Christ's birth was Rome. What power took over that seat when the Roman Empire moved its seat to Constantinople?

Kozel
08-13-2012, 12:46
Well I guess there is nothing in Revelation 18 that does not fit USA.

All I got in this topic were some personal opinions backed by nothing and references to other chapters, which are connected by guestimation.

Thank you for re-enforcing my opinion that USA is in Revelation 18.

Vic Hays
08-13-2012, 14:34
Well I guess there is nothing in Revelation 18 that does not fit USA.

All I got in this topic were some personal opinions backed by nothing and references to other chapters, which are connected by guestimation.

Thank you for re-enforcing my opinion that USA is in Revelation 18.

I guess your opinion is good enough for you. :upeyes:

muscogee
08-13-2012, 15:16
Given that Revelation is now being hyped as the literal --- even desired --- roadmap to Armageddon and given Palin and her long-time church buys into this vision, it's worth pausing to note that the book is nothing more than a bizarre pastoral letter that was addressed to seven specific churches in Asia at the end of the first century by someone (maybe John or maybe not) who appears to have been far from well when he wrote it. In any case, the letter was not intended for use outside of its liturgical context, not to mention that it reads like Jesus on acid.


http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7643/ (http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7643/)

Schabesbert
08-13-2012, 16:37
Revelation 18:2 And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.
18:3 For by the wine of the wrath of her fornication all the nations are fallen; and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth waxed rich by the power of her wantonness.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

Are you going to come out of her? Where will you go?
To which city do you suppose John is referring?

Schabesbert
08-13-2012, 16:40
The US is a nation. All nations have drunk from Babylon's cup and are in rebellion against God. Babylon is not a nation. The name Babylon means confusion and in this context means spiritual confusion.
True, Babylon is not a nation. It is a city.

Re 18:10 they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! alas! thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy judgment come."
Re 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more;

Which city? See 11:8 for the definitive clue.

Schabesbert
08-13-2012, 16:46
What is required to understand which empires and kingdoms the Bible is speaking of requires a frame of reference.

One of the heads of the Red Dragon is the Roman Empire. This can be seen as the Roman Empire was the empire in power when Jesus was born.

OK.
What else, or rather who else, does the Red Dragon represent?

At the time, the "King of the Jews" was not even a Jew!!!
The Herodian dynasty was put in place and propped up by the Romans.

The Herodians weren't descended from Jacob at all, but Edom. They were "Edomites (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Edomites.html)" (descendants of Esau).

Interestingly enough, the word Edom means "red" (Heb: `admoni), as in the color of the dragon.

Vic Hays
08-13-2012, 17:07
OK.
What else, or rather who else, does the Red Dragon represent?


The dragon's seven heads represent the empires that have opposed God's people. Horns and crowns represent nations and kings.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space.
17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
17:12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

John was writing in the first century AD. Five are already in the past by this time. The "One is" would represent the Roman Empire in power at John's time.

Two more kings are to come after John.

One is called the beast which receives a deadly wound Revelation 13:1 and then the two horned beast of Revelation 13:11 which makes an Image to the Beast of Rev 13:1 . This image is the eighth head, but is actually is of the seven as John says.

Schabesbert
08-13-2012, 18:00
The dragon's seven heads represent the empires that have opposed God's people. Horns and crowns represent nations and kings.
The horns represent the Caesars who give the kings power.
The 7 heads represent the 7 Herods.

These images are great examples of the polyvalent imagery used in apocalyptic literature.

For instance, another reason to understand the dragon as representing Herod (or, more precisely, the Herods) is because it is poised to devour the Child (Jesus). Who was it that sought the death of Jesus as a child?

John was writing in the first century AD. Five are already in the past by this time. The "One is" would represent the Roman Empire in power at John's time.

Two more kings are to come after John.
Pretty much.

One is called the beast which receives a deadly wound Revelation 13:1 and then the two horned beast of Revelation 13:11 which makes an Image to the Beast of Rev 13:1 . This image is the eighth head, but is actually is of the seven as John says.
Huh?
The second beast is a false Elijah.

Vic Hays
08-13-2012, 18:16
For instance, another reason to understand the dragon as representing Herod (or, more precisely, the Herods) is because it is poised to devour the Child (Jesus). Who was it that sought the death of Jesus as a child?


Herod sought the death of Jesus as a child, but the whole area was under the Romans and the Roman Emperor.

You are attempting to reduce the world scope of Revelation.

Vic Hays
08-13-2012, 22:28
Revelation 12-13 show the time from the birth of Christ until the mark of the beast. This is no local prophecy. The 1260 prophetic days are equal to 1260 years. This is the time span that the beast with the deadly wound has dominion over the saints. The deadly wound is from the Protestant Reformation. The Protestant Reformation starts out well but in the end joins forces back with the beast. The deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Schabesbert
08-20-2012, 16:47
Revelation 12-13 show the time from the birth of Christ until the mark of the beast. This is no local prophecy. The 1260 prophetic days are equal to 1260 years. This is the time span that the beast with the deadly wound has dominion over the saints. The deadly wound is from the Protestant Reformation. The Protestant Reformation starts out well but in the end joins forces back with the beast. The deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Yeah, people can twist scrpture to try to get it to say anything their preconceptions demand. St. Peter was right.

Your sect has been doing this since it's founding with Miller, hasn't it?

cowboy1964
08-20-2012, 18:17
The United States has had very Christian principles like the First Amendment.

Yeah right. Freedom of religion, press and speech has been REALLY big for most of the 2000 year history of Christianity! :rofl:

Kingarthurhk
08-20-2012, 18:43
Yeah right. Freedom of religion, press and speech has been REALLY big for most of the 2000 year history of Christianity! :rofl:

Then apparently you aren't a very astute student of history. Try the Protestant Reformation to present, see what you find out.

The Freedom of Religion is a very Christ-like principle. Those that have chosen to do the oposite have only blasphemed that name in a desire to promote themselves.

Vic Hays
08-20-2012, 22:10
Yeah, people can twist scrpture to try to get it to say anything their preconceptions demand. St. Peter was right.

Your sect has been doing this since it's founding with Miller, hasn't it?

So this means you have no better answer right?

Schabesbert
08-21-2012, 07:42
So this means you have no better answer right?
Answer to what, precisely?
To the part of your personal, fallible interpretation where you make up out of whole cloth a meaning for scripture to suit your own preconceptions?

No, I can't answer that. :rofl:

I'll note, though, that you avoided the mistake the founders of your religion (men & women, unlike Catholicism, BTW) made: you set the date far enough out that it would exceed your lifetime, so you couldn't be shown to be incorrect.

Vic Hays
08-21-2012, 09:44
Answer to what, precisely?
To the part of your personal, fallible interpretation where you make up out of whole cloth a meaning for scripture to suit your own preconceptions?

No, I can't answer that. :rofl:

I'll note, though, that you avoided the mistake the founders of your religion (men & women, unlike Catholicism, BTW) made: you set the date far enough out that it would exceed your lifetime, so you couldn't be shown to be incorrect.

Actually the saints are not now under the dominion of the Catholic church. That only lasted for 1260 years from the time that the last of the barbarian tribes was defeated until the Pope was taken captive by Napoleon. (538 AD to 1798)
The Protestant reformation was a deadly wound.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Kozel
08-21-2012, 11:16
Well. Thank you for participation. Posted same question on four forums and did not get ONE reply to tell me which part of Revelation 18 does not fit USA.

Revelation 18 is all about USA.

Schabesbert
08-21-2012, 13:27
Actually the saints are not now under the dominion of the Catholic church. That only lasted for 1260 years from the time that the last of the barbarian tribes was defeated until the Pope was taken captive by Napoleon. (538 AD to 1798)
So, the Church prior to 538 was teaching Truth?

Jesus came back in 1798?

The Protestant reformation was a deadly wound.
The Protestant revolt happened long before 1798.

What about the times between 538 and 1798 that the popes were taken captive?
Including the Pope who was IN CAPTIVITY from 537-539?

Special pleading much?

Kozel
08-21-2012, 14:06
Harlot of Babylon fornicates with all the kings of the world. Why even talk about times when most of the world was not even discovered?
I never did understand that.

How, in any ways, Catholic church can be the subject of Revelation 18 if it is still very much around? It is also never was and never will be any kind of major player in most of the world.

Vic Hays
08-21-2012, 14:39
So, the Church prior to 538 was teaching Truth?

Jesus came back in 1798?


The Protestant revolt happened long before 1798.

What about the times between 538 and 1798 that the popes were taken captive?
Including the Pope who was IN CAPTIVITY from 537-539?

Special pleading much?

Your sect, the Roman catholic sect was declared to be head of the churches by Justinian in 538. Of course no man can declare another to be the head especially since Jesus is the head.

In 1798 the Pope was taken captive and its property confiscated including the Vatican.

In 1798 at the end of the 1260 years the Judgment began.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Schabesbert
08-21-2012, 14:53
Your sect, the Roman catholic sect was declared to be head of the churches by Justinian in 538. Of course no man can declare another to be the head especially since Jesus is the head.
So complain to Justinian.

Jesus, in 33AD, made the Catholic Church the (singular, as in the only ONE) Church that He founded.

In 1798 the Pope was taken captive and its property confiscated including the Vatican.

In 1798 at the end of the 1260 years the Judgment began.
Seriously, other than special pleading, how can you possibly believe this?

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Ahhh. So, you believe that in 1798 the beast was slain and his body destroyed. Got it. :crazy:

NMG26
08-21-2012, 15:32
Well. Thank you for participation. Posted same question on four forums and did not get ONE reply to tell me which part of Revelation 18 does not fit USA.

Revelation 18 is all about USA.

Well the beginning of Revelation says the time is at hand.
Rev 1:3
Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.


At the end of Revelation is says the things must shortly be done.

Rev22:6
And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:10
And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

The time was at hand 2000 years ago and the things are done.

Don't hate on the USA. We are a blessed nation and Revelation has failed the time test.

Whatever the writer was smoking is probably still available.




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GreenDrake
08-21-2012, 16:26
Which one was Elvis?

Seriously, biblical tales are like dungeons and dragons for theists.

Vic Hays
08-21-2012, 20:25
So complain to Justinian.

Jesus, in 33AD, made the Catholic Church the (singular, as in the only ONE) Church that He founded.


Ahhh. So, you believe that in 1798 the beast was slain and his body destroyed. Got it. :crazy:


Sorry, there have been and will continue to be other sects than the Catholic sect . There is no such scripture where Jesus names His Church. I know that you have a string of suppositions to get to that point but neither the Bible or history bear that out.

After. That time the saints judge. The way you tell it the saints have already begun judging and it is your sect you believe has that authority.
Again you misread the Bible and made a supposition to what I wrote. The judgment began in 1798. The beast has continued on but it will succumb before the second coming.

Schabesbert
08-22-2012, 07:19
Sorry, there have been and will continue to be other sects than the Catholic sect .
Yes, in opposition to Jesus' express desires and the Holy Spirit's (through St. Paul) express commands.

There is no such scripture where Jesus names His Church.
That's not the point. The NAME isn't what's important.
What Jesus does is found a Church, and promises to be with them forever. That Church, according to St. Paul, is the "pillar and bulwark of the truth."

The gifts and authority of that Church are passed on through the breathing on of the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands.

If that Church changes its name to Sally it doesn't matter.

I know that you have a string of suppositions to get to that point but neither the Bible or history bear that out.
Both the bible AND history bear it out.

After. That time the saints judge.
Great. Your interpretation is incorrect, then.

The way you tell it the saints have already begun judging and it is your sect you believe has that authority.
Not judging as to condemning; the Church has never done that and it's our doctrine that we don't do that.

However, Jesus expressly gave that authority to His Church. That you claim not to have that authority is tacit admission that your church isn't Christ's.

Mt 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Joh 20:19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

That you can claim that He hadn't granted His Authority to mere men indicates that you don't really believe in the Gospels.

Again you misread the Bible and made a supposition to what I wrote. The judgment began in 1798.
You were complaining above that we believe that the judgement has already begun; here you say that the judgement has already begun. Hmmm ...

How is that judgement manifest, in your beliefs?

The beast has continued on but it will succumb before the second coming.
Ahhh, so you believe in 1260 years-ish?

Now, for some of the other things you've ignored:

What about the times between 538 and 1798 that the popes were taken captive?
Including the Pope who was IN CAPTIVITY from 537-539?

Special pleading much?

Kozel
08-22-2012, 10:33
Don't hate on the USA. We are a blessed nation and Revelation has failed the time test.

Whatever the writer was smoking is probably still available.



I can tell since you are probably smoking it to say what you did.

If you believe that Earth is billions of years old then 2000 years is just a blink of an eye.



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Vic Hays
08-22-2012, 10:39
Yes, in opposition to Jesus' express desires and the Holy Spirit's (through St. Paul) express commands.


That's not the point. The NAME isn't what's important.
What Jesus does is found a Church, and promises to be with them forever. That Church, according to St. Paul, is the "pillar and bulwark of the truth."

The gifts and authority of that Church are passed on through the breathing on of the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands.

If that Church changes its name to Sally it doesn't matter.
[/INDENT]

You appeal to Paul? What does he say?

I Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

You claim to be of Peter (Cephas). You are making Paul's point that this is a carnal view of things.

I Corinthians 3:3 For you are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men?
3:4 For while one said, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal?

Sorry Bert, it seems the universal Church is really universal and extends beyond the boundaries of your sect. :upeyes:

Schabesbert
08-22-2012, 12:47
You appeal to Paul? What does he say?
Paul said lots of things. Your picking up on one thing and taking it out of context notwithstanding.

I Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

You claim to be of Peter (Cephas).
No, we don't. We claim to be of Christ.
Perhaps you should review what I wrote on the other thread; I've said this over and over again, and you ignore it or purposefully misrepresent it to fit your agenda (i.e., to run from the Holy Spirit).

Here's what I said:

We base our Church on Jesus. Jesus said that he'd build His Church on St. Peter. I don't know what you've got against Jesus' promises.



YOU claim to be of Ellen. That's closer to what Paul was getting at.

You are making Paul's point that this is a carnal view of things.
Absolutely not. You're misrepresenting our beliefs since you can't dispute what we actually believe.

I Corinthians 3:3 For you are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men?
3:4 For while one said, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal?
Absolutely! We, according to Paul, shouldn't split His Body up. That's called amputation, and that's what people like EG White have done.

Vic Hays
08-22-2012, 13:13
Absolutely! We, according to Paul, shouldn't split His Body up. That's called amputation, and that's what people like EG White have done.

Sorry to delete so much senseless jawboning.

Actually you can't split Christ's body up. The Lord knows who belongs to Him. The Protestant Reformation was about getting back to the forgotten Truths of the Bible. God's word is forever and it was given to us by Jesus who is the Word.

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Schabesbert
08-22-2012, 13:31
Sorry to delete so much senseless jawboning.

You SHOULD be apologizing for adding so much.

What you keep deleting is stuff you should be addressing, but to which you have no good answers.

Actually you can't split Christ's body up. The Lord knows who belongs to Him. The Protestant Reformation was about getting back to the forgotten Truths of the Bible.
And yet, your beliefs are so opposed to the beliefs, doctrines, and practices of the Early Church. Why is that?

God's word is forever and it was given to us by Jesus who is the Word.

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Great.

If only you'd follow this.

BTW, in this section (the "High Priestly Prayer" of Christ), He also prays for the UNITY of His followers, something you are working hard to destroy.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Vic Hays
08-22-2012, 14:09
BTW, in this section (the "High Priestly Prayer" of Christ), He also prays for the UNITY of His followers, something you are working hard to destroy.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Jesus did not ask for the unity of all believers without His Truth. John 17 is about the words that Jesus taught His followers which are the one faith spoken of in Ephesians.

The foundation is Christ. Any man who builds on the foundation of Christ will be saved but not those things that are not True.

I Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

You do believe that Jesus Christ is the foundation don't you?

Schabesbert
08-22-2012, 15:04
Jesus did not ask for the unity of all believers without His Truth.
That is correct. But, as St. Paul had stated, the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth. 1Ti 3:15.

John 17 is about the words that Jesus taught His followers which are the one faith spoken of in Ephesians.
Right. And the truth that there is ONE FAITH disallows multiple sects such as the SDA.

The foundation is Christ. Any man who builds on the foundation of Christ will be saved but not those things that are not True.

I Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

You do believe that Jesus Christ is the foundation don't you?
Yes, but I also believe that the Apostles and Prophets are the foundation.

Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

You see, unlike you, I believe ALL of scriptures. I don't pit one chunk of scripture, taken out of context, against another.

In fact, if you'd go back a single verse, you could see that Paul claimed to have himself laid a foundation.

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now, he did that through God's Grace, but he built that (apologies to Obama). So, your wooden view of Christ being the ONLY foundation is not in accord with scripture, much like many of your beliefs.

NMG26
08-22-2012, 15:16
If you believe that Earth is billions of years old then 2000 years is just a blink of an eye.
.

Then the words in your Bible have no meaning.

The time is at hand.

Must shortly come to pass.

The time is at hand.

Since the words have no meaning you may as well believe it all pertains to the USA.

What makes you think the the writer of 2000 years ago is any different then a writer of today?

It is the line you have been led to believe.

Now don't go saying that nobody gave you an answer concerning Revelation 18. It is far past the time test. That is the best answer you will get. How many generations do you think 2000 years is? Shortly come to pass does not work for this generation. Have you heard of Preterism by the way?





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Kozel
08-22-2012, 15:31
Then the words in your Bible have no meaning.

.

Keep smoking that stuff. It must be good!

That hallucinogenic avatar gave you away!





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Vic Hays
08-22-2012, 15:35
Now, he did that through God's Grace, but he built that (apologies to Obama). So, your wooden view of Christ being the ONLY foundation is not in accord with scripture, much like many of your beliefs.

OK, you win, build on any foundation you choose.

I will build on Jesus and His words thank you.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house on a rock:
7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock.

Schabesbert
08-22-2012, 15:40
OK, you win, build on any foundation you choose.

I will build on Jesus and His words thank you.
You say that, but you don't mean it, since you obviously violate His Words.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house on a rock:
7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock.
If only you actually followed this ...

NMG26
08-22-2012, 16:19
Keep smoking that stuff. It must be good!

That hallucinogenic avatar gave you away!


LOL

It is a fractal.

It shows unity even though things may look fragmented.

In the reality we experience as fractured, we encounter God in the beauty of fractals, in the ineffable mystery of every part representing the very Whole of it. A fractal may be understood as a mathematically poetic form, a kind of geometric synecdoche - part for the whole - a rough or fragmented shape that can be split into parts, each of which is recognizable as a reduced-size copy of the whole. As the hasidim teach, in taking hold of a shred of the unity of God, we take the whole of it in hand. Claim your attachment to whatever shred you need in each moment of your life, and understand that that particular attachment precludes no other possibility, for you or for any other participant in the great expanse of Being. The Unity is simultaneous in its diverse potentiality, but never less than a Unity. This insight is not a chidush, an innovation; it is foundational to the Torah we embody.
http://yavnehraleigh.org/worship/rabbi-entry/2010-09-18/sacred-fragments-fractal-theology

I chose it as a spiritual symbol after reading "The Web Of Life", by Fritjov Capra. It was a little over my head, but a great read.



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Kozel
08-22-2012, 16:29
LOL

It is a fractal.

It shows unity even though things may look fragmented.

.

Too bad that I am a subject to random drug tests otherwise I would ask you to share.

NMG26
08-22-2012, 16:55
Too bad that I am a subject to random drug tests otherwise I would ask you to share.


I'm a machinist so I too am subject to random drug testing. It is the world we live in.

Seriously though. The time has passed for Revelation. It is done. I think you could get some inspiration from it, but it is not a good text for putting down your country. In the USA we have much more liberty then many other places in the world. God is not using us as a pawn in his apocalyptic end of the world. Fear not.




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Kozel
08-22-2012, 17:04
I'm a machinist so I too am subject to random drug testing. It is the world we live in.

Seriously though. The time has passed for Revelation. It is done. .

Says you. Have you ever been outside of time? I did.

NMG26
08-22-2012, 17:28
Says you. Have you ever been outside of time? I did.

Not that I know of. Tell about yours, and how it relates to the book of Revelation.




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muscogee
08-22-2012, 18:18
Says you. Have you ever been outside of time? I did.

Have you spent much time around interminably ill people? Many of them sound like Revelations or the Old Testament prophets.

As for your own personal experience, I went to college during the drug addled sixties. There were a lot of people who saw things that weren't real. Some of them even saw God. I never believed them for a minute, no matter how adamant they were.

Kozel
08-22-2012, 21:50
Have you spent much time around interminably ill people? .

Being on this forum…? Sure I did! Thank you for proof of that.

Kozel
08-22-2012, 21:54
Not that I know of. Tell about yours, and how it relates to the book of Revelation.


If you do not understand what I said you will not understand what I can tell you.

NMG26
08-23-2012, 03:41
If you do not understand what I said you will not understand what I can tell you.

I thought it was a little vague. I don't know what "outside of time" means. You said "I did." Short sentence that I took to mean that you have been outside of time, and again, I don't know what it means. I am searching for understanding. Why do you think that I can't achieve it?

The fact that you have bought into the Christian apocalypses doctrine makes me think you really don't have much to say.

God is not interested in ending this world because of the wickedness of mankind. Just because it is believed to be true, does not make it so. God is not stepping in. God has never stepped in and never will. We are on our own. Humanity decides it's own fate.

Faith and free will are powerful. You get enough yahoo's thinking the same thing, and they bring it to pass. That is ugliness of religions and their wars. 911 is one example.
End time doctrine is destructive and enslaving. There is no end, except the one we bring on ourselves.

Free your mind.





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muscogee
08-23-2012, 06:20
Being on this forum…? Sure I did! Thank you for proof of that.

OK, got me on a typo. No try terminally ill.