Would you allow your employees to CCW at work? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Would you allow your employees to CCW at work?


wjv
08-08-2012, 10:48
If you owned a business, would you allow your employees to CCW at work?

It’s real easy to say “sure I would”, but what about the downside.

You either spent years building up your business to the point where it is today, or you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars (maybe millions) buying an existing business. Either way you have a LOT of your life invested in that business.
Depending on your specific situation, that business might just represent

- 100% of your family’s income
- A large percentage of your retirement plan

So will you allow all of that to be placed at risk by an employee that you might not actually know very well, who has a CCW permit?

Example: Armed robbery. You own a convenience store an employee draws gun and fires 3 rounds at robber. Two hit the robber. One round hits the nice, twenty something, pregnant lady at the back of the store who was just buying some groceries. You get sued by the lady’s family. You get sued by the robber’s family. .

Example: Employee has a drug dependency, or a mental illness that you are unaware of. One day the employee gets into an argument with another employee or a customer and draws his gun. Even if he doesn’t use the gun you still get sued by the other employee or the customer.

Could make up examples all day long but I think all of you get the point. When you are the boss, and you allow others to carry at your business, you increase your potential liability. So if you owned a business, how would you deal with this?

- Prohibit all employees to carry (the easy solution)?
- Allow carry but buy an additional liability policy (expensive)?
- Allow only certain employees to carry after you double check their background?
- Insist that all employees who carry must take some sort of defensive training class first?
- Other ???

I’m wondering about these options because we are considering buying a business of some sort. One of the possibilities is a 24x7 gas station with a convenience store This would be a ~$600K investment plus another $1.7M if we want to also buy the property, opposed to leasing it. It has 6 or 7 employees that I know NOTHING about.

So if you had $600K or $2.3M invested in a business and you had quit your day job to run the new business, would you let them carry if they wanted? Would you have a “no weapons” policy? Or would you have something in-between?

SPIN2010
08-08-2012, 11:06
Yes, I would and if I ever saw any weapons presented (out of the CCW position) for anything other than defense I would need a new employee for that position.

youngdocglock
08-08-2012, 11:10
Hell yes i would. I CC at work. I've always CC'd. No matter where i've worked. Walmart, Aarons. Rent a center........i do it for my safety and the safety of my co-workers.

I've also owned my own business and even had a nice sign in the window stating that most of my employees carried..........keeps the crooks on the OUTSIDE of my business.

F350
08-08-2012, 12:02
I was a partner in a company that installed and maintained business telephone systems (also did data networks paging etc) and employees were on the road A LOT, often over night. I encouraged all of the guys to get their CCWs and to be armed when in transit, it was prohibited to take their weapon into a customers location, except on construction sites with union contractors.

Actually had a lawyer tell me it would be cheaper to have an employee killed than defend a lawsuit in the event of a shooting; because wokers compensation law limited damages if an employee is killed and would be paid by the state workers compensation fund. We carried extra liability insurance ($10 mil) and let the guys carry.

youngdocglock
08-08-2012, 12:04
I was a partner in a company that installed and maintained business telephone systems (also did data networks paging etc) and employees were on the road A LOT, often over night. I encouraged all of the guys to get their CCWs and to be armed when in transit, it was prohibited to take their weapon into a customers location, except on construction sites with union contractors.

Actually had a lawyer tell me it would be cheaper to have an employee killed than defend a lawsuit in the event of a shooting; because wokers compensation law limited damages if an employee is killed and would be paid by the state workers compensation fund. We carried extra liability insurance ($10 mil) and let the guys carry.

Very good choice! i would rather have a lawsuit on my hands then lose one person because they couldnt defend themselves. Money you can make back. You cant get a dead employee back. That simple.

BlownFiveLiter
08-08-2012, 12:21
I would personally support it, but from a business perspective, I would have no policy in either direction. Concealed means concealed, and any policy which allows it would likely expose one to a ton of litigation, should one of the employees use the concealed weapon. I wish I could get CCW in IL to begin with!

snakeman
08-08-2012, 12:26
Back in the day they said to comply with a robber because he would take the money and leave. Now a days it seems that doesn't happen. Robbery suspects seem to be more willing to use the weapon they are holding. I think I would give them the option to carry but would make them take some sort of class where at the end they have to demonstrate some proficiency with their weapon.


snakeman

youngdocglock
08-08-2012, 12:32
Last year i worked as a groundskeeper at a multi location hotel in Maine. The owner was former army and had a no weapons policy. Until i talked his wife into getting her CCW :-D One day he saw me printing * i ignored the policy because its a tourist trap and lots of crime down there*. and questioned me why i was carrying. After explaining my reasoning and showing him my CCW and all other certificates pertaining to weapons i've earned. He changed the policy to employees cant carry weapons except the groundskeeper haha.

cloudbuster
08-08-2012, 12:36
Back in the day they said to comply with a robber because he would take the money and leave. Now a days it seems that doesn't happen. Robbery suspects seem to be more willing to use the weapon they are holding. I think I would give them the option to carry but would make them take some sort of class where at the end they have to demonstrate some proficiency with their weapon.


snakeman

I think you're asking for trouble doing that. I agree with BlownFiveLiter:

I would have no policy in either direction. Concealed means concealed, and any policy which allows it would likely expose one to a ton of litigation, should one of the employees use the concealed weapon.

Once you start setting CCW standards for your employees, you've knowingly inserted yourself into the process and are a much more ripe target for being held responsible for the consequences.

Don't ask, don't tell. That's my policy. I'm not required by law to expressly forbid or monitor my employees' legal activities to shield myself from liability.

Gunnut 45/454
08-08-2012, 13:24
wjv

Example: Armed robbery. You own a convenience store an employee draws gun and fires 3 rounds at robber. Two hit the robber. One round hits the nice, twenty something, pregnant lady at the back of the store who was just buying some groceries. You get sued by the lady’s family. You get sued by the robber’s family Answer: Robber shoots up the place anyway and you get sued anyway

Example: Employee has a drug dependency, or a mental illness that you are unaware of. One day the employee gets into an argument with another employee or a customer and draws his gun. Even if he doesn’t use the gun you still get sued by the other employee or the customer. Answer: Not your fault! Do you not test employee's for drug use? Employee would be the criminal in this case. What law makes you libal for employee behavoir?


Are you going to cover your employee's medical bills if you don't allow them to protect themselves! Carry life insurance for there loved ones if/when they die on the job?

Or will you trust in and employ people who are trust wurthy. Your talking about what 10 employee's? What kind of buisiness owner will not take the time to get to know each one personnally?

Hawkeye16
08-08-2012, 13:36
I would like to. But there is the issue of letting people go or firing them in a corporation the size that I work in that just makes letting the employees carry unsafe.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

FireForged
08-08-2012, 13:42
I know plenty of people who have all the business sense in the world, are blessed with a near perfect work ethic, are accomodating, well met and law abiding... These same people are borderline idiots when it comes to anything else.

If I were a business owner I would allow a employee to store anything they like in their personal vehicle but would not allow employee-ccw inside the physical office plant. It would be purely a business decision and would have nothing to do with my pro-gun views. Crafty lawyers always seem to be able to make the person with the biggest money bags, appear culpable in just about anything their employees do while on-duty.

youngdocglock
08-08-2012, 13:45
I know plenty of people who have all the business sense in the world, are blessed with a near perfect work ethic, are accomodating, well met and law abiding... These same people are borderline idiots when it comes to anything else.

If I were a business owner I would allow a employee to store anything they like in their personal vehicle but would not allow ccw inside the physical office plant. It is purely a business decision and has nothing to do with my pro-gun views.

The state im in you HAVE to allow your employee to keep whatever they want in their vehicle :-) if you discipline, fire or otherwise retaliate towards an employee who has a legal firearm in their car.........haha BIG FINES :-)

simotek
08-08-2012, 13:52
I would not have a policy for or against.

FireForged
08-08-2012, 13:54
The state im in you HAVE to allow your employee to keep whatever they want in their vehicle :-) if you discipline, fire or otherwise retaliate towards an employee who has a legal firearm in their car.........haha BIG FINES :-)

Great! it sounds like a good thing. I would never disagree with what people choose to carry inside their personal vehicle as it has nothing to do with me.

series1811
08-08-2012, 13:56
I live in the deep south. I'm pretty sure that at least half of the people down here are armed all of the time. :supergrin:

youngdocglock
08-08-2012, 14:00
Great! it sounds like a good thing. I would never disagree with what people choose to carry inside their personal vehicle as it has nothing to do with me.

My tag says NH. But im in very southern Maine. late last year our governor signed a bill into law that states the personal contents of an employees car are no concern of the employer. And anything an employer does against said employee for personal effects in their car is open for suit :-D

LoadToadBoss
08-08-2012, 15:02
I am the pastor at my church. All staff are permitted to CCW at work.

mingaa
08-08-2012, 15:25
If I were heading that direction I'd do further research and seek more advice BUT I'm inclined to say that the legal right of an employee can stand on its own and by NOT addressing it in an employee policy manual some or more of the burden would stay with them were an incident to occur. That said anyone out of line carrying would have to be dealt with in a professional HR manner matching the offense.

I've worked on employee manuals before and once you open a can of worms you have to deal with every foreseeable possibility. Last year I left a 501c3 that was in a unique working agreement with a County Park. The Park system allowed CCW - the 501c3 handbook prohibited any dangerous weapon. No one ever asked me what was in my car and I carried a Benchmade clipped in my pocket and a second in my briefcase. I was not shy about the knife - it was accepted as a tool. The 501c3 was in over 100 acres of park land much of it heavily wooded. Funny how the lines blur, eh?!

Glock_9mm
08-08-2012, 15:44
I would personally support it, but from a business perspective, I would have no policy in either direction. Concealed means concealed, and any policy which allows it would likely expose one to a ton of litigation, should one of the employees use the concealed weapon....

x2
Scott

TheExplorer
08-08-2012, 15:55
I think it would depend on the business. Jewelry store vs. advertising business. Guns still make some people very uncomfortable even if you are co-workers.

jrpro130
08-08-2012, 16:07
From what I understand the laws in my state (FL) to be, if you are a business owner and you are on your own private property, you can open carry. This is what all our pawn/gun shops do to boot.

So with that said, I would have an OPEN carry policy for employees. If they want to carry, it would be open. I have the chick-fil-a mentality, if you don't like my ideals, then don't come to my store!

Now in the instance of a gas station or convenience store, I would say this is a huge plus. Not many robbers want to pick the place with gun toting employees.

Also, now a days, what job doesn't require a background check? So I think that is PAR for the course. I would conduct a gun training course as part of my orientation. The fact of the matter is the only businesses I am considering opening is a truck/ATV shop or gun/pawn store and either of those places I would venture out and say the people that work there are also gun enthusiasts...

wjv
08-08-2012, 16:21
Or will you trust in and employ people who are trust wurthy. Your talking about what 10 employee's? What kind of buisiness owner will not take the time to get to know each one personnally?

But what if I buy a business that already HAS 10 employees?

Do I re-background check all of them?

And how long do you have to know someone to really know if they are trustworthy with a firearm? That might take quite a while.

FFR Spyder GT
08-08-2012, 17:20
I stop at a C-store everyday after work and I can only imagine the +60 yo woman or the 19yo girl with a hog leg strapped to their hip.

Arkansas has a CCW law that allows CHL holders to have a handgun in their auto on company property even if the company has a "no guns" policy.

Allowing employees to carry on the job? It would have to be "Don't ask, don't tell", or a lot would depend on the type of business, area that the business is located, etc.

The main deciding factor would be the employee. LEO, former LEO, Veteran, etc. no problem.

Some 22yo punk.....Big PROBLEM!!!!

Bruce M
08-08-2012, 18:31
I would probably rely on my attorney and probably my insurance company to help me with this decision. I might be a bit paranoid though.

t-shooter
08-08-2012, 18:52
I do have my own business. I carry concealed every day. I have no policy related to concealed carry. If my employees decide to carry I expect that the weapon will be properly concealed and will not be the subject of water cooler conversation. I expect them to follow the CHL rules and laws as documented by my state. I will not impose restrictions more rigorous than state law.

CharlestonG26
08-08-2012, 19:06
I would personally support it, but from a business perspective, I would have no policy in either direction. Concealed means concealed, and any policy which allows it would likely expose one to a ton of litigation, should one of the employees use the concealed weapon.

+1...this.

DaneA
08-08-2012, 22:20
But what if I buy a business that already HAS 10 employees?

Do I re-background check all of them?

And how long do you have to know someone to really know if they are trustworthy with a firearm? That might take quite a while.

Yes. Personally, I would fire all of them and reinterview/rehire them. I don't like inheriting problems. Of course I would also legally close the business and reopen it as a new entity to limit prior debts from attaching to you as a new owner.

As far as carry is concerned. I would omit any policy from my handbook. Or do like my current employer does and have a very vague policy that states "No firearms on the property unless specifically allowed by state law" (Still not sure of the intent of that policy).

Dalton Wayne
08-08-2012, 22:24
I am the manager of a gas station/C-store the owner allows me to open carry at work, which I do.
employes under me also have that option and they choose not to carry at all.

ScottieG59
08-08-2012, 22:58
It is really hard to know if a person is ready to carry concealed. Everyone I work with have security clearances and there are a few I do not trust at all. I always keep a level head, but some have emotional issues.

Even going down range with soldiers in my unit, I knew some were not quite screwed together right.

Overall, I just do not know and, when I was in business, I did not have a policy. I carried and never asked my employees if they did.

Louisville Glocker
08-08-2012, 23:12
I've owned a couple of businesses. Both had retail components. One was a coffee shop that was open nights, and one of my employees had a CCDW license. The issue isn't mentioned in our employee manual, so he simply told me one day that he was carrying and I said fine. (he worked nights)

I didn't have a CCDW license myself at the time (I do now), but it made perfect sense that my employee had the right to a weapon in case he needed to defend himself. If it was someone I didn't think was competent to have a weapon, I probably wouldn't have hired them as an employee in the first place.

I'm not a lawyer, but in my real-world experience with the matter I simply based my decision on common sense. More people should let common sense guide their actions. The world would be a better place.

Gunnut 45/454
08-09-2012, 13:00
wjv
Take them to the range! In your case I'd reinterview them for there positions! You have that right as the employer! Rescreen for drugs etc. If they don't meet your requirements for the job let them go. Sit down with them an go over the carry policy. Define what is and will be exceptable behavior. You may fined none of them wish to carry or they may all want to. :supergrin: If they want to carry let them show there level of training at the range, set goals for them to be able to carry(training requirements). It's all about people skills- happy, content, safe employee's are nothing but a possitive for any buisness!

ca survivor
08-09-2012, 15:09
Yes, I would and if I ever saw any weapons presented (out of the CCW position) for anything other than defense I would need a new employee for that position.
This ^^^^^but I used to be co-owner of a shop and I will tell my employees, you defend your self if it comes to that, but not my business, don't get hurt for a couple of dollars.

poodleplumber
08-09-2012, 15:23
I have a professional office. My staff knows I am licensed and carry daily. I have no formal policy, but they also know from informal conversations that I have no objections. I don't know that any of them carry, but I don't ask questions I don't want answered.

I bought two cans of a reputable OC spray, and we keep one at the front desk and one at the back door. We have had discussions about its use and limitations.

I also train them and have written policies regarding locks, controlling access to private areas of the clinic, using a buddy system, and how to respond to an attempted robbery. I emphasize to them that they are allowed to give an armed robber anything in the place that they think will get the robber to leave, because I value their safety and survival far higher than any material possession. I also emphasize that the risk of not surviving an incident increases dramatically when a robber relocates a victim, and advise them to resist leaving the premises or going into another room with all available means.

Misty02
08-09-2012, 17:00
I would personally support it, but from a business perspective, I would have no policy in either direction. Concealed means concealed, and any policy which allows it would likely expose one to a ton of litigation, should one of the employees use the concealed weapon. I wish I could get CCW in IL to begin with!

^^^ This, but I would also consult an attorney as to the pros and cons. If you decide to allow CC I would be inclined to not have a weapons policy at all. Whatever the law is in your state would still be in place. One drawback might be OC in your place of employment which is allowed in many states, depending on the type of business I might not like to entertain that one.


.

avenues165
08-09-2012, 19:47
I am so tired of all decisions having to be made because of potential liability. We need tort reform in a bad way.

I personally would have no policy due to potential liability. If things were different I would have a policy that supported the right of each individual to carry as allowed by state law.

larson1122
08-10-2012, 01:37
I would personally support it, but from a business perspective, I would have no policy in either direction. Concealed means concealed, and any policy which allows it would likely expose one to a ton of litigation, should one of the employees use the concealed weapon.

:agree:


The main deciding factor would be the employee. LEO, former LEO, Veteran, etc. no problem.

Some 22yo punk.....Big PROBLEM!!!!

So because I'm 22 years old and not a veteran or former law enforcement officer, you are going to limit my right to defend myself?

NEOH212
08-10-2012, 03:28
Yes I would. I would require the firearms be kept concealed and under their control at all times though.

Depending on what kind of business I had, I may even want them to carry openly.

It's their right to have a firearm and I don't have the right as a business owner to tell them they can't be armed at their place of work.

That would be wrong and a violation of their Constitutional rights.

Bruce M
08-10-2012, 17:42
If an employee really has a right be armed and an employer has no right to prevent an employee being armed, someone ought to try taking that through the court system.

Booker
08-10-2012, 21:45
My store policy is this:

Any employee found to be in possession of an illegal weapon will be terminated.

I let the State of Colorado define illegal weapon.

IndyGunFreak
08-10-2012, 22:17
My store policy is this:

Any employee found to be in possession of an illegal weapon will be terminated.

I let the State of Colorado define illegal weapon.

That's an interesting way to handle it. Kinda covers you, and still makes your intent pretty clear to anyone who really reads the policy.

:thumbsup: